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freshwater
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LCY to pause terminal expansion plans

Wed Aug 19, 2020 10:20 am

In a rather unsurprising move, London City Airport will pause further expansion plans to terminal space after completion of taxiway improvements.

“For the time being, we have taken the decision to focus our attention on delivering the vital additional airfield infrastructure which will provide our existing and prospective airline customers with the potential to bring new generation aircraft to this airport in greater numbers, which will be a crucial aspect of how we build a better, more sustainable airport."


For those with more knowledge of the London and European aviation market than myself, what does the future of LCY look like with consolidation and heavy cutbacks across the other airports in the London area? Will this airport remain viable in a time of remote working and travel restrictions?

https://www.constructionenquirer.com/20 ... sion-plan/
 
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spinotter
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Re: LCY to pause terminal expansion plans

Wed Aug 19, 2020 1:03 pm

Do the infrastructure and rules/laws governing LCY allow for nonstops in both directions to BOS, JFK, IAD, YYZ, etc., say with the A220? To Russia, Dubai, and India? If so I could see a resurgence of traffic there. But I am not British and really don't know. What do people say about LH at LCY?
 
davidjohnson6
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Re: LCY to pause terminal expansion plans

Wed Aug 19, 2020 2:06 pm

I don't recall any realistic chatter about routes from LCY to any long haul airports other than NYC in the last few years pre-pandemic.
 
jamesontheroad
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Re: LCY to pause terminal expansion plans

Wed Aug 19, 2020 2:25 pm

While it is heavily delayed, the new Crossrail line (aka Elizabeth Line) poses a great threat to LCY’s attraction to business traffic to/from the City of London and Docklands. The train now makes LHR - and it’s wider range of destinations, longer operating hours, better passenger facilities, etc - much easier to access. With both the ease of access to LHR and the depressed demand caused by COVID, LCY’s biggest operator BA CityFlyer may never return to the levels of activity we have been used to.
 
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chunhimlai
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Re: LCY to pause terminal expansion plans

Wed Aug 19, 2020 3:22 pm

LCY should extend its runway and build new apron and terminal for long-haul flight
 
VV
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Re: LCY to pause terminal expansion plans

Wed Aug 19, 2020 3:26 pm

So, what is the future of Odyssey Airlines then?
 
davidjohnson6
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Re: LCY to pause terminal expansion plans

Wed Aug 19, 2020 3:27 pm

Why should LCY spend the money to allow long haul ? It's already lost a huge amount of short haul traffic, and in a year or two will face much stronger competition from Heathrow. It seems dubious that spending the extra money would generate a suitable return on investment any time soon
 
Toinou
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Re: LCY to pause terminal expansion plans

Wed Aug 19, 2020 3:28 pm

I'm wondering about the effect of Crossrail.
What kind of people are the core target of LCY? Quite wealthy businessperson (let's pretend it's not overwhelmingly men) who value their time (and person) so much that they: 1) must absolutely be present in person in that meeting in (add your favorite European business center here); 2) must absolutely fly from an airport just across the road from the office. I know what I wrote is somewhat cliché but I don't feel like this is the kind of people who will be inclined to take a train (and a normal train, not that kind of airport train that allows you to be away from the plebeian hordes) across all London. If they go the Heathrow, it will be on a cab or limousine. But maybe I'm wrong.
 
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Polot
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Re: LCY to pause terminal expansion plans

Wed Aug 19, 2020 3:30 pm

VV wrote:
So, what is the future of Odyssey Airlines then?

Odyssey doesn’t have a future, they have basically been dead for several years now. Their website just reposts Airbus press releases involving the A220 (and before that BBD) and that is it.
 
FlyingElvii
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Re: LCY to pause terminal expansion plans

Wed Aug 19, 2020 3:32 pm

Toinou wrote:
I'm wondering about the effect of Crossrail.
What kind of people are the core target of LCY? Quite wealthy businessperson (let's pretend it's not overwhelmingly men) who value their time (and person) so much that they: 1) must absolutely be present in person in that meeting in (add your favorite European business center here); 2) must absolutely fly from an airport just across the road from the office. I know what I wrote is somewhat cliché but I don't feel like this is the kind of people who will be inclined to take a train (and a normal train, not that kind of airport train that allows you to be away from the plebeian hordes) across all London. If they go the Heathrow, it will be on a cab or limousine. But maybe I'm wrong.

You aren't...
 
skipness1E
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Re: LCY to pause terminal expansion plans

Wed Aug 19, 2020 3:33 pm

chunhimlai wrote:
LCY should extend its runway and build new apron and terminal for long-haul flight

Pls stop posting nonsense, it's beyond insanity some of the stuff you come out with.
Please review the many threads which explain why the runway physically cannot be expanded and as for long haul, there's one flight a day that's just been axed. On no sane planet does that need a new terminal and even if it did there's literally nowhere to put it.

If you've never seen how constrained the King George V dock is, it's worth a visit.
 
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chunhimlai
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Re: LCY to pause terminal expansion plans

Wed Aug 19, 2020 3:35 pm

skipness1E wrote:
chunhimlai wrote:
LCY should extend its runway and build new apron and terminal for long-haul flight

Pls stop posting nonsense, it's beyond insanity some of the stuff you come out with.



It can be used for supersonic flight (eg:boom) for the superrich working in dock area

And there are some airport construction which is far more difficult to build and expand
 
VV
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Re: LCY to pause terminal expansion plans

Wed Aug 19, 2020 3:44 pm

Polot wrote:
VV wrote:
So, what is the future of Odyssey Airlines then?

Odyssey doesn’t have a future, they have basically been dead for several years now. Their website just reposts Airbus press releases involving the A220 (and before that BBD) and that is it.


Are you saying they need to remove the ten A220-100 ordered by Odyssey from the order book?
 
VSMUT
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Re: LCY to pause terminal expansion plans

Wed Aug 19, 2020 3:52 pm

No big surprise there. International traffic is down due to COVID and even Heathrow can now accommodate smaller aircraft. An economic recession is certain to follow, even if we don't know how big yet. Then you have Brexit and crossrail piling up on top. I don't think LCY will go away, but it will probably shrink a bit.


VV wrote:
So, what is the future of Odyssey Airlines then?


Did anybody ever take them serious in the first place?


Toinou wrote:
I'm wondering about the effect of Crossrail.
What kind of people are the core target of LCY? Quite wealthy businessperson (let's pretend it's not overwhelmingly men) who value their time (and person) so much that they: 1) must absolutely be present in person in that meeting in (add your favorite European business center here); 2) must absolutely fly from an airport just across the road from the office. I know what I wrote is somewhat cliché but I don't feel like this is the kind of people who will be inclined to take a train (and a normal train, not that kind of airport train that allows you to be away from the plebeian hordes) across all London. If they go the Heathrow, it will be on a cab or limousine. But maybe I'm wrong.


I'm not quite sure I get your point. Do you suggest trains are only for the lower-classes? When did you last take the train in London? The trains are nicer than LCY at rush-hour. Rush-hour on the road is not fun either. London doesn't have the best road network in the world for traversing the city. You either have to go right down the busy centre on small roads, or take a long detour around the city on dual carriageways. We are talking anywhere from 1:30 to 2 hours by road. The train takes around an hour, with crossrail it will only take around 40 minutes.
 
davidjohnson6
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Re: LCY to pause terminal expansion plans

Wed Aug 19, 2020 4:08 pm

There are plenty of people working in Canary Wharf who fly to/from LCY and (until the pandemic) took the tube/DLR/train/metro/subway between home and the office each day. Plenty of companies in their travel policies stipulate the use of public transport between airport and city centre - employees can take a taxi but the company won't reimburse.
Yes, if you're a board level director of a major bank you get a taxi but for anyone earning less than $1m per year, they are more than capable of using public transport
 
VV
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Re: LCY to pause terminal expansion plans

Wed Aug 19, 2020 4:09 pm

VSMUT wrote:
...
VV wrote:
So, what is the future of Odyssey Airlines then?


Did anybody ever take them serious in the first place?
...


Someone did.
They have ten aircraft on order according to Airbus Orders and Deliveries spreadsheet published recently.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: LCY to pause terminal expansion plans

Wed Aug 19, 2020 4:18 pm

Downturns are the perfect time to invest in infrastructure. Unlike just giving money away it teaches skills and provides those facilities needed for future economic growth. I personally see postponing this LCY expansion as very short sighted.

Lightsaber
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VSMUT
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Re: LCY to pause terminal expansion plans

Wed Aug 19, 2020 4:30 pm

VV wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
...
VV wrote:
So, what is the future of Odyssey Airlines then?


Did anybody ever take them serious in the first place?
...


Someone did.
They have ten aircraft on order according to Airbus Orders and Deliveries spreadsheet published recently.


Bombardier took them at a point when they were absolutely desperate to land any orders, because the C-series was completely stagnant at the time. I don't think even Bombardier expected them to see the light of day.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: LCY to pause terminal expansion plans

Wed Aug 19, 2020 4:38 pm

VV wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
...
VV wrote:
So, what is the future of Odyssey Airlines then?


Did anybody ever take them serious in the first place?
...


Someone did.
They have ten aircraft on order according to Airbus Orders and Deliveries spreadsheet published recently.


That's right up there with the Doric/Amedeo order for twenty A380s.

14 February 2019

​Leasing company Amedeo has formally cancelled its order for 20 Airbus A380s, without having taken delivery of a single one.
 
BA777FO
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Re: LCY to pause terminal expansion plans

Wed Aug 19, 2020 4:50 pm

VSMUT wrote:
The train takes around an hour, with crossrail it will only take around 40 minutes.


On a good day at Heathrow in 40 minutes you'll make it from T5C to the baggage hall. The appeal of LCY is 40 minutes after on chocks you're in the office. Crossrail won't remove that appeal.
 
Toinou
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Re: LCY to pause terminal expansion plans

Wed Aug 19, 2020 4:51 pm

VSMUT wrote:
Toinou wrote:
I'm wondering about the effect of Crossrail.
What kind of people are the core target of LCY? Quite wealthy businessperson (let's pretend it's not overwhelmingly men) who value their time (and person) so much that they: 1) must absolutely be present in person in that meeting in (add your favorite European business center here); 2) must absolutely fly from an airport just across the road from the office. I know what I wrote is somewhat cliché but I don't feel like this is the kind of people who will be inclined to take a train (and a normal train, not that kind of airport train that allows you to be away from the plebeian hordes) across all London. If they go the Heathrow, it will be on a cab or limousine. But maybe I'm wrong.


I'm not quite sure I get your point. Do you suggest trains are only for the lower-classes? When did you last take the train in London? The trains are nicer than LCY at rush-hour. Rush-hour on the road is not fun either. London doesn't have the best road network in the world for traversing the city. You either have to go right down the busy centre on small roads, or take a long detour around the city on dual carriageways. We are talking anywhere from 1:30 to 2 hours by road. The train takes around an hour, with crossrail it will only take around 40 minutes.


davidjohnson6 wrote:
There are plenty of people working in Canary Wharf who fly to/from LCY and (until the pandemic) took the tube/DLR/train/metro/subway between home and the office each day. Plenty of companies in their travel policies stipulate the use of public transport between airport and city centre - employees can take a taxi but the company won't reimburse.
Yes, if you're a board level director of a major bank you get a taxi but for anyone earning less than $1m per year, they are more than capable of using public transport


I'm not saying trains are not practical or that people working in the banking sector are not capable of using them. I'm questioning if they are inclined to use public transport, which would be indicative of the potential effect of Crossrail on London City airport. What you're saying is an interesting input to my thoughts, for which I would like to thank you for that.
You show that companies may have a leverage by with their travel expense policies, which should be interesting to look at in detail. As you said too, practical aspects are one too. I still think that psychological aspects (like status perception) are playing a role but I have no way to say it precisely. Once again, I'm thinking out loud more than really questioning anything (even though, I may have some bias and preconceptions, like will all do ;-))
 
VSMUT
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Re: LCY to pause terminal expansion plans

Wed Aug 19, 2020 4:52 pm

BA777FO wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
The train takes around an hour, with crossrail it will only take around 40 minutes.


On a good day at Heathrow in 40 minutes you'll make it from T5C to the baggage hall. The appeal of LCY is 40 minutes after on chocks you're in the office. Crossrail won't remove that appeal.


I was thinking more the other direction, but fair point.
 
SCQ83
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Re: LCY to pause terminal expansion plans

Wed Aug 19, 2020 5:04 pm

Toinou wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
Toinou wrote:
I'm wondering about the effect of Crossrail.
What kind of people are the core target of LCY? Quite wealthy businessperson (let's pretend it's not overwhelmingly men) who value their time (and person) so much that they: 1) must absolutely be present in person in that meeting in (add your favorite European business center here); 2) must absolutely fly from an airport just across the road from the office. I know what I wrote is somewhat cliché but I don't feel like this is the kind of people who will be inclined to take a train (and a normal train, not that kind of airport train that allows you to be away from the plebeian hordes) across all London. If they go the Heathrow, it will be on a cab or limousine. But maybe I'm wrong.


I'm not quite sure I get your point. Do you suggest trains are only for the lower-classes? When did you last take the train in London? The trains are nicer than LCY at rush-hour. Rush-hour on the road is not fun either. London doesn't have the best road network in the world for traversing the city. You either have to go right down the busy centre on small roads, or take a long detour around the city on dual carriageways. We are talking anywhere from 1:30 to 2 hours by road. The train takes around an hour, with crossrail it will only take around 40 minutes.


davidjohnson6 wrote:
There are plenty of people working in Canary Wharf who fly to/from LCY and (until the pandemic) took the tube/DLR/train/metro/subway between home and the office each day. Plenty of companies in their travel policies stipulate the use of public transport between airport and city centre - employees can take a taxi but the company won't reimburse.
Yes, if you're a board level director of a major bank you get a taxi but for anyone earning less than $1m per year, they are more than capable of using public transport


I'm not saying trains are not practical or that people working in the banking sector are not capable of using them. I'm questioning if they are inclined to use public transport, which would be indicative of the potential effect of Crossrail on London City airport. What you're saying is an interesting input to my thoughts, for which I would like to thank you for that.
You show that companies may have a leverage by with their travel expense policies, which should be interesting to look at in detail. As you said too, practical aspects are one too. I still think that psychological aspects (like status perception) are playing a role but I have no way to say it precisely. Once again, I'm thinking out loud more than really questioning anything (even though, I may have some bias and preconceptions, like will all do ;-))


I think you are overthinking a bit. London City is just another commercial airport. It is not Biggin Hill with private jets over the place.

I have flown multiple times to LCY and very often is the same price as other major London airport.

Most of the times LCY is just a slight premium; so a company will rather pay 500 GBP to fly someone from LCY to Europe return instead of 400 GBP from Heathrow + taxi fare + wasted time. So most people is just salarymen (or salarywomen) that will just take the DLR/underground back to their office/home or a taxi/Uber.

IMO London City should reorientate themselves as the London "inner" airport for leisure and VFR (which already was the case in off-peak times during the week or the weekend, see year-round LCY-Ibiza flight on BA Cityflyer; or all those summer services to Santorini or Quimper or wherever there is a "premium" beach). In this time of pandemics, more people would rather fly over a nearby airport with a small building where you don't have to spend a lot of time inside, where you don't cross thousands of people and just get on a small plane.
 
bennett123
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Re: LCY to pause terminal expansion plans

Wed Aug 19, 2020 5:05 pm

Anyone suggesting runway extensions needs to visit the area first.
 
runway23
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Re: LCY to pause terminal expansion plans

Wed Aug 19, 2020 5:10 pm

lightsaber wrote:
Downturns are the perfect time to invest in infrastructure. Unlike just giving money away it teaches skills and provides those facilities needed for future economic growth. I personally see postponing this LCY expansion as very short sighted.

Lightsaber


I'd agree with you in past recessions, but the current one throws a lot of doubt.

The first big question is how many people will return to offices, how many will need (or want) to travel and will companies allow employees to travel. Video meetings are certainly popular as is home working - whether it is here to stay or not ?

Certainly over time some travel will return - but how much remains to be seen.

Then you can add the uncertainty due to Brexit, possible changes of regulation, taxes on air travel, etc.

You could also add to the list the extremely high airport taxes that LCY will have to address if they want to get any airlines back.

Certainly at this point investing any money into expanding LCY seems foolish.
 
VSMUT
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Re: LCY to pause terminal expansion plans

Wed Aug 19, 2020 5:17 pm

SCQ83 wrote:
In this time of pandemics, more people would rather fly over a nearby airport with a small building where you don't have to spend a lot of time inside, where you don't cross thousands of people and just get on a small plane.


LCY is the last place you want to be if that is the case. People are really jammed in at that airport.


Toinou wrote:
I still think that psychological aspects (like status perception) are playing a role but I have no way to say it precisely.


I don't think perception has any weight in LCY or Europe. If it did, you would probably see more aircraft with business class seating. Right now, many LCY operators don't even offer euro-business. There isn't even an airside lounge in LCY.
 
PlymSpotter
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Re: LCY to pause terminal expansion plans

Wed Aug 19, 2020 5:20 pm

chunhimlai wrote:
skipness1E wrote:
chunhimlai wrote:
LCY should extend its runway and build new apron and terminal for long-haul flight

Pls stop posting nonsense, it's beyond insanity some of the stuff you come out with.



It can be used for supersonic flight (eg:boom) for the superrich working in dock area

And there are some airport construction which is far more difficult to build and expand


You've been brought up to speed on this and other 'ideas' so many times now, by so many people.

At this point, your comments have become ignorant and nonsensical trolling. On behalf of everyone please, just give it a rest.
...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
 
peterinlisbon
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Re: LCY to pause terminal expansion plans

Wed Aug 19, 2020 5:51 pm

Is it really a bad thing that an overcrowded small airport becomes slightly less crowded? Crossrail reduces the advantage vs. Heathrow, but it does not completely remove it. Someone that lives or works in that area can jump in a taxi and be there in 10 minutes, rather than having to first go to a crossrail station and take a journey across the city.
 
seansasLCY
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Re: LCY to pause terminal expansion plans

Wed Aug 19, 2020 7:33 pm

VSMUT wrote:

Toinou wrote:
I still think that psychological aspects (like status perception) are playing a role but I have no way to say it precisely.


I don't think perception has any weight in LCY or Europe. If it did, you would probably see more aircraft with business class seating. Right now, many LCY operators don't even offer euro-business. There isn't even an airside lounge in LCY.


Actually pretty much ever operator at LCY offers a business class service, some also offer a premium economy service. Sun Air don’t on the route to Billund but economy is basically priced at Business prices anyway and I’m not sure about Eastern but other wise the great majority do. The whole reason for lack of lounges is that LCY was built on the premise of 20 minute check in. You could arrive 20 mins before your flight, clear security and board. There would be no time for a lounge.

The expansion holt also only affects the terminal building, the dock expansion will be (pretty much already is) finished and the taxiway will be finished meaning the frequency of flights can increase.

Cross rail won’t kill LCY. We already have the Heathrow Express but I work 10 mins from Paddington and nearly everyone in my office still would rather take a car to Heathrow especially if it’s arranged by your PA and you don’t have to do anything. LCY has already diversified into the holiday niche. It went from around 70% business pax to around 49% (pre Corona).
 
intrepidflyer
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Re: LCY to pause terminal expansion plans

Wed Aug 19, 2020 10:18 pm

I'm a Londoner and I love flying from LCY if I can.
The lack of crowds of people, the swiftness through the terminal, no duty free mazes (!), the short tube journey to South London (via Bank).. please don't make this airport like the others!
 
Bacon
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Re: LCY to pause terminal expansion plans

Thu Aug 20, 2020 12:34 am

Myself and my other half always use LCY for our annual holiday if possible. It's just more enjoyable to use compared the the larger airports and I work at one of them!
 
vfw614
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Re: LCY to pause terminal expansion plans

Thu Aug 20, 2020 9:27 am

The attractiveness is LCY vs. LHR is mostly its size, not its locaton. Crossrail will not change that. There is no other London airport where you have to spend so little time in the terminal departing and particularly arriving. What should be a greater concern is the future of Canary Wharf and The City post COVID19, i.e. the future of work at a traditional office vs. home office. If folks in large number continue to work in non-traditional settings, the catchment area of LCY will be seriously affected. For example, you can read almost daily about large London law firms giving up expensive office space as they have found out that remote work of its fee earners (and axing of lots of support staff) saves lots of money without a negative impact on work flow.
 
filipinoavgeek
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Re: LCY to pause terminal expansion plans

Thu Aug 20, 2020 9:49 am

VSMUT wrote:
VV wrote:
So, what is the future of Odyssey Airlines then?


Did anybody ever take them serious in the first place?


I remember a CAPA analysis a few years back on them which IIRC seemed fairly bullish on them. How many times has CAPA been proven wrong at this point?
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ro1960
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Re: LCY to pause terminal expansion plans

Thu Aug 20, 2020 10:00 am

BA777FO wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
The train takes around an hour, with crossrail it will only take around 40 minutes.


On a good day at Heathrow in 40 minutes you'll make it from T5C to the baggage hall. The appeal of LCY is 40 minutes after on chocks you're in the office. Crossrail won't remove that appeal.


I second that. Plus Crossrail 40 minutes travel time doesn't include getting to the platform from the street. Some stations are 40 meters below street level, the equivalent of a 15-story building. This can easily add 10 minutes to the total travel time.
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AirbusA6
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Re: LCY to pause terminal expansion plans

Thu Aug 20, 2020 10:23 am

lightsaber wrote:
Downturns are the perfect time to invest in infrastructure. Unlike just giving money away it teaches skills and provides those facilities needed for future economic growth. I personally see postponing this LCY expansion as very short sighted.

Lightsaber


Personally I think LCY is environmentally pretty dubious, it might be very convenient because it's so central, but it's that central location which makes the noise really intrusive

And unlike Heathrow, you can't argue that it's economically essential or that most people benefit from it. It's a niche airport and needs to stay that way
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AAMDanny
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Re: LCY to pause terminal expansion plans

Thu Aug 20, 2020 11:00 am

chunhimlai wrote:
LCY should extend its runway and build new apron and terminal for long-haul flight


Like your idea of EXT? But really, have you seen where LCY is? If you have, you would know a runway extension is not a easy possibility.
 
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Kindanew
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Re: LCY to pause terminal expansion plans

Thu Aug 20, 2020 11:08 am

Toinou wrote:
I'm wondering about the effect of Crossrail.
What kind of people are the core target of LCY? Quite wealthy businessperson (let's pretend it's not overwhelmingly men) who value their time (and person) so much that they: 1) must absolutely be present in person in that meeting in (add your favorite European business center here); 2) must absolutely fly from an airport just across the road from the office. I know what I wrote is somewhat cliché but I don't feel like this is the kind of people who will be inclined to take a train (and a normal train, not that kind of airport train that allows you to be away from the plebeian hordes) across all London. If they go the Heathrow, it will be on a cab or limousine. But maybe I'm wrong.


LCY is actually about 3 miles from Canary Wharf and about 6 Miles from the city and the majority of passengers do not arrive there via private transport.

What you need to understand is London is not designed for cars. The vast majority (over 90%) of people who work in the two financial districts travel to work on public transport because driving simply isn't an option. And even the people who might be lucky enough to be entitled to an executive parking space might prefer to take the train because it is quicker.

The Elizabeth line will be able to get people to Heathrow from Central London twice as fast as it is possible to travel by road. So people who really value their time would be mad not to take it.
 
seansasLCY
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Re: LCY to pause terminal expansion plans

Thu Aug 20, 2020 11:08 am

AirbusA6 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Downturns are the perfect time to invest in infrastructure. Unlike just giving money away it teaches skills and provides those facilities needed for future economic growth. I personally see postponing this LCY expansion as very short sighted.

Lightsaber


Personally I think LCY is environmentally pretty dubious, it might be very convenient because it's so central, but it's that central location which makes the noise really intrusive

And unlike Heathrow, you can't argue that it's economically essential or that most people benefit from it. It's a niche airport and needs to stay that way


LCY isn't particularly loud. I live opposite the dock and there is more noise from cars with loud exhausts than the Ejets taking off from LCY. The A220 is quieter than the RJ100 and nothing much bigger is ever going to operate from there. Despite what Chunhimlai suggests.
 
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oxonrow
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Re: LCY to pause terminal expansion plans

Thu Aug 20, 2020 11:11 am

The ease/breeze of using LCY is one of a kind. It is the best experience you can have at an airport. 20 minute checkin deadline, I've arrived later sometimes and made it OK onto the flight. It's wonderful. If you're the kind who absolutely needs the taste of stale salmon in your life, you will use LHR, but if you have a life beyond taking selfies in the lounge, you will opt for LCY. Problem with terminal expansion is that it may impact on the ease/breeze of use. There is a fine balance there.

Re LHR and xrail. It will make getting to LHR that much quicker from parts of London other than Paddington. This is important. Limo/taxi can take ages. Rail is vital, no matter which cabin you're flying.
 
skipness1E
Posts: 4834
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 9:18 am

Re: LCY to pause terminal expansion plans

Thu Aug 20, 2020 11:20 am

seansasLCY wrote:
AirbusA6 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Downturns are the perfect time to invest in infrastructure. Unlike just giving money away it teaches skills and provides those facilities needed for future economic growth. I personally see postponing this LCY expansion as very short sighted.

Lightsaber


Personally I think LCY is environmentally pretty dubious, it might be very convenient because it's so central, but it's that central location which makes the noise really intrusive

And unlike Heathrow, you can't argue that it's economically essential or that most people benefit from it. It's a niche airport and needs to stay that way


LCY isn't particularly loud. I live opposite the dock and there is more noise from cars with loud exhausts than the Ejets taking off from LCY. The A220 is quieter than the RJ100 and nothing much bigger is ever going to operate from there. Despite what Chunhimlai suggests.

Hang on there, that’s not true. It IS loud, because it’s all a built up area with no buffer zone around the airport. The locals were promised “props only” and of course that promise was broken with the 146. I lived locally for a few years and to my ears, there’s a step change in noise levels between a 146 and the Embraer ERJ, not to mention the Fokker 70 and A318. The double whammy for some locals is that not only do they get LCY departures to 3000ft, but they have LHR inbounds at 4000ft. You REALLY notice Sunday mornings in some parts of London. I agree the A220 is a progress but it’s really a stretch to say you don’t notice the Embraers surely?!
Last edited by skipness1E on Thu Aug 20, 2020 11:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 8230
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: LCY to pause terminal expansion plans

Thu Aug 20, 2020 11:20 am

SCQ83 wrote:
IMO London City should reorientate themselves as the London "inner" airport for leisure and VFR (which already was the case in off-peak times during the week or the weekend, see year-round LCY-Ibiza flight on BA Cityflyer; or all those summer services to Santorini or Quimper or wherever there is a "premium" beach).


VFR/leisure traffic typically lacks premium demand to generate high avg fares. LCY is already stuck with smaller aircraft and so higher avg seat cost. Yes, premium beach/ski resorts can be the exception, but part of premium means not too many people. Factor in seasonality, too.
 
seansasLCY
Posts: 1103
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2007 5:25 am

Re: LCY to pause terminal expansion plans

Thu Aug 20, 2020 2:27 pm

skipness1E wrote:
seansasLCY wrote:
AirbusA6 wrote:

Personally I think LCY is environmentally pretty dubious, it might be very convenient because it's so central, but it's that central location which makes the noise really intrusive

And unlike Heathrow, you can't argue that it's economically essential or that most people benefit from it. It's a niche airport and needs to stay that way


LCY isn't particularly loud. I live opposite the dock and there is more noise from cars with loud exhausts than the Ejets taking off from LCY. The A220 is quieter than the RJ100 and nothing much bigger is ever going to operate from there. Despite what Chunhimlai suggests.

Hang on there, that’s not true. It IS loud, because it’s all a built up area with no buffer zone around the airport. The locals were promised “props only” and of course that promise was broken with the 146. I lived locally for a few years and to my ears, there’s a step change in noise levels between a 146 and the Embraer ERJ, not to mention the Fokker 70 and A318. The double whammy for some locals is that not only do they get LCY departures to 3000ft, but they have LHR inbounds at 4000ft. You REALLY notice Sunday mornings in some parts of London. I agree the A220 is a progress but it’s really a stretch to say you don’t notice the Embraers surely?!


I can honestly say I've never noticed them. Granted I've been born and raised there (Beckton area) and am roughly the same age as the airport but I've discussed it with neighbours and nobody has ever complained. We get more noise from cars wheel spinning in Sainsbury's car park on a Friday and Saturday night and police sirens.

Most people living around there now have moved there since the airport was opened. The loudest aircraft I notice is the Piaggio private plane thing which comes in occasionally. Plus even if the Saturday closure goes, it still closes at 10pm and it's not like we have 5am arrivals.

In the 2017 LCY Annual Performance Report it says ". A total of 320 complaints relating to Airport operations were received during 2017, 81 of these were received from
just 2 complainants. Of the 320 complaints, only 11% were from residents within Newham with the majority coming from outside the Borough". Maybe it's changed in the past three years but that works out at less than 3 complaints per month from Newham residents. The 2019 report (published 2020) says "In 2019, a total of 722 complaints were received regarding the airport’s operation from 242 complainants. 124 of these were received from 1 individual and a further 179 were from 4 individuals. This was an increase in 317 complaints compared to the previous year and was mainly attributed to increased awareness due to the consultation on the airport’s draft master plan in summer 2019 as well as an increase in complaints from Lewisham and from Havering. Most complaints from Lewisham were received in April 2019 when we operated 74.9% on runway 09 easterly, the highest 09 runway split for the year". The graph shows less than 50 individuals in Newham complained last year. https://lcacc.org/wp-content/uploads/20 ... inal-1.pdf

So interestingly it seems it isn't much of a bother (or at least not worth complaining about) to locals in Newham.
 
wnflyguy
Posts: 1984
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:58 pm

Re: LCY to pause terminal expansion plans

Fri Aug 21, 2020 8:07 pm

When my In-laws lived by Stanford we always connected some place then into LCY Even though it added travel time. With kids getting through customs was always under 15 mins vs hour plus at LHR or LGW.

Flyguy
My Wings are clipped just another Retired Airline person. The Ultimate Armchair out of the loop airline industry geek. Aloha Mr Hand!
 
AirbusA6
Posts: 1655
Joined: Tue Apr 26, 2005 5:53 am

Re: LCY to pause terminal expansion plans

Sun Aug 23, 2020 1:11 pm

seansasLCY wrote:
skipness1E wrote:
seansasLCY wrote:

LCY isn't particularly loud. I live opposite the dock and there is more noise from cars with loud exhausts than the Ejets taking off from LCY. The A220 is quieter than the RJ100 and nothing much bigger is ever going to operate from there. Despite what Chunhimlai suggests.

Hang on there, that’s not true. It IS loud, because it’s all a built up area with no buffer zone around the airport. The locals were promised “props only” and of course that promise was broken with the 146. I lived locally for a few years and to my ears, there’s a step change in noise levels between a 146 and the Embraer ERJ, not to mention the Fokker 70 and A318. The double whammy for some locals is that not only do they get LCY departures to 3000ft, but they have LHR inbounds at 4000ft. You REALLY notice Sunday mornings in some parts of London. I agree the A220 is a progress but it’s really a stretch to say you don’t notice the Embraers surely?!


I can honestly say I've never noticed them. Granted I've been born and raised there (Beckton area) and am roughly the same age as the airport but I've discussed it with neighbours and nobody has ever complained. We get more noise from cars wheel spinning in Sainsbury's car park on a Friday and Saturday night and police sirens.

Most people living around there now have moved there since the airport was opened. The loudest aircraft I notice is the Piaggio private plane thing which comes in occasionally. Plus even if the Saturday closure goes, it still closes at 10pm and it's not like we have 5am arrivals.

In the 2017 LCY Annual Performance Report it says ". A total of 320 complaints relating to Airport operations were received during 2017, 81 of these were received from
just 2 complainants. Of the 320 complaints, only 11% were from residents within Newham with the majority coming from outside the Borough". Maybe it's changed in the past three years but that works out at less than 3 complaints per month from Newham residents. The 2019 report (published 2020) says "In 2019, a total of 722 complaints were received regarding the airport’s operation from 242 complainants. 124 of these were received from 1 individual and a further 179 were from 4 individuals. This was an increase in 317 complaints compared to the previous year and was mainly attributed to increased awareness due to the consultation on the airport’s draft master plan in summer 2019 as well as an increase in complaints from Lewisham and from Havering. Most complaints from Lewisham were received in April 2019 when we operated 74.9% on runway 09 easterly, the highest 09 runway split for the year". The graph shows less than 50 individuals in Newham complained last year. https://lcacc.org/wp-content/uploads/20 ... inal-1.pdf

So interestingly it seems it isn't much of a bother (or at least not worth complaining about) to locals in Newham.


The noise in Woolwich and Thamesmead seems pretty intrusive to me as planes descend to land right over them

My original point was that while locals (especially those who've always lived with the airport) might accept the current operations, but any major growth would be unacceptable.
it's the bus to stansted (now renamed National Express a6 to ruin my username)

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