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LAXintl
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Delta ALPA concerned over continued JV scope flying violations

Wed Aug 19, 2020 11:19 pm

ALPA continues to be concerned at the ongoing contract violations at Delta after having won multiple arbitrations against the company.

Latest communication of subject dated today.

Image
https://i.ibb.co/KDT3bK8/2020-08-19-160527.png

Can't disagree with them that ongoing violations are unacceptable especially while Delta's own pilots are at risk of furlough.


Previous thread on topic from last year:

Delta pilots file objection to expanded JVs >>>> viewtopic.php?t=1429411
Last edited by LAXintl on Wed Aug 19, 2020 11:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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SteelChair
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Re: Delta ALPA concerned over continued JV scope flying violations

Wed Aug 19, 2020 11:24 pm

They should be concerned with getting through the next 6 months. The pandemic has changed everything and they are, as usual, way behind the airplane.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Delta ALPA concerned over continued JV scope flying violations

Wed Aug 19, 2020 11:27 pm

Yeah they have allowed this to go on for too long. They also should be worried about the mass retirement of widebodies from their fleet. There will be far fewer opportunities for higher paying positions now.
 
TYWoolman
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Re: Delta ALPA concerned over continued JV scope flying violations

Wed Aug 19, 2020 11:43 pm

Pilots have a legitimate grievance. Pilots are correct in their concern as most airlines will be leveraging their partners to best accommodate demand that is here one day and gone the next. Delta retirement of their 777's isn't much of a concern unless there isn't a plan for one on one replacements with A350 and A330NEOs. And the case for sinking millions and billions into other carriers is going to be a tough sell going forward. Pilots should demand a new cash on-hand target (like a furlough shield) prior to strategic investments. But where Delta can put its metal, it should! Is Delta management being transparent enough?
 
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UPlog
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Re: Delta ALPA concerned over continued JV scope flying violations

Wed Aug 19, 2020 11:58 pm

Its pretty simple.

Delta has an agreement with its pilots that spells out how JV flying was to be allocated. Over the years, Delta has let its JV partners take a greater share of the pie and pilots rightfully called the company out and won their grievance arbitration.

Now its an even worse situation as DL pilots face prospects of finding themselves sitting at home on furlough while an even larger percentage of JV flying is in the hands of partner airlines.

Pandemic is hardly the excuse for DL to skate by its contractual commitments and ensure its employees get the appropriate share of international flying however small or large it may turn out to be.
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MIflyer12
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Re: Delta ALPA concerned over continued JV scope flying violations

Thu Aug 20, 2020 12:24 am

If DALPA doesn't like it they can grieve it, and then seek to enforce a win. Right now it's just whining.
 
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LAXintl
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Re: Delta ALPA concerned over continued JV scope flying violations

Thu Aug 20, 2020 12:28 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
If DALPA doesn't like it they can grieve it, and then seek to enforce a win. Right now it's just whining.


They have, and won every single of the several dozen grievances heard to date on the subject.

Union and company are now waiting for a decision on the remedy which will be imposed as result of the affirmed violations.
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DTWLAX
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Re: Delta ALPA concerned over continued JV scope flying violations

Thu Aug 20, 2020 12:40 am

UPlog wrote:
Its pretty simple.

Now its an even worse situation as DL pilots face prospects of finding themselves sitting at home on furlough while an even larger percentage of JV flying is in the hands of partner airlines.

Pandemic is hardly the excuse for DL to skate by its contractual commitments and ensure its employees get the appropriate share of international flying however small or largeP it may turn out to be.

How is an even larger percentage of JV flying in the hands of partner airlines now? It is not like partner airlines have replaced DL on the routes that DL has stopped flying.
Also should DL fly empty planes on long haul routes and lose money just to ensure pilots get their share of flying?
 
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UPlog
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Re: Delta ALPA concerned over continued JV scope flying violations

Thu Aug 20, 2020 12:52 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
If DALPA doesn't like it they can grieve it, and then seek to enforce a win. Right now it's just whining.


They've won arbitration already. Everyone is waiting to see what the awarded remedy will be.

DTWLAX wrote:
How is an even larger percentage of JV flying in the hands of partner airlines now? It is not like partner airlines have replaced DL on the routes that DL has stopped flying.
Also should DL fly empty planes on long haul routes and lose money just to ensure pilots get their share of flying?


If you look at the starting post, across the Pacific today KE operates 72% of the JV flying versus 28% for DL. Across Atlantic, AF/KL operates 65% vs DL 35%. Hardly balanced.

Delta and its partners by nature of their JV have the ability too coordinate flying, so yes DL could be flying a plane versus a partner doing so.
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hoons90
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Re: Delta ALPA concerned over continued JV scope flying violations

Thu Aug 20, 2020 1:57 am

What routes could DL realistically add (especially in this climate) or take over from KE to balance things out?
Completely hand over SEA-ICN to DL? Transfer over a few LAX-ICN frequencies?
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Ursula21
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Re: Delta ALPA concerned over continued JV scope flying violations

Thu Aug 20, 2020 2:12 am

There are so few flights per day of course the percentages are going to look bad. If DL doubled their tatl flying that's 3 to 6 trips per day so that's what 10 block hours x 3 trips x 3 crew so 750k/mo in salary? So that averages $60 per pilot on the roster per month in potential lost flying. Meanwhile today's DL ATL-CDG went out with over 150 seats empty. Plus each airline has it's own government to appease for this low yield flying. I don't see how this argument works unless these flights were actually operated at a profit.
 
santi319
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Re: Delta ALPA concerned over continued JV scope flying violations

Thu Aug 20, 2020 3:04 am

And even after all that, it still amazes me how their flight attendant group doesn’t vote a union in..
 
workhorse
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Re: Delta ALPA concerned over continued JV scope flying violations

Thu Aug 20, 2020 10:04 am

Ursula21 wrote:
Meanwhile today's DL ATL-CDG went out with over 150 seats empty. Plus each airline has it's own government to appease for this low yield flying. I don't see how this argument works unless these flights were actually operated at a profit.


I suspect the transpacific flights are very profitable because of the Chinese exodus from the US.
 
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klm617
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Re: Delta ALPA concerned over continued JV scope flying violations

Thu Aug 20, 2020 12:27 pm

hoons90 wrote:
What routes could DL realistically add (especially in this climate) or take over from KE to balance things out?
Completely hand over SEA-ICN to DL? Transfer over a few LAX-ICN frequencies?


To start with they could take over all the ICN-ATL and LHR-ATL flying
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Re: Delta ALPA concerned over continued JV scope flying violations

Thu Aug 20, 2020 2:50 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
Right now it's just whining.


A skill that DL pilots have held for a very long time.

Now is not the time to be beating this drum. Continuing to do so just makes look like spoiled primadonnas. It's all about survival at this stage, not just for DL but for all carriers. Worry about this crap down the road once the carrier is on a clear and sustained road to recovery.
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DMPHL
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Re: Delta ALPA concerned over continued JV scope flying violations

Thu Aug 20, 2020 3:27 pm

DL747400 wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
Right now it's just whining.


A skill that DL pilots have held for a very long time.

Now is not the time to be beating this drum. Continuing to do so just makes look like spoiled primadonnas. It's all about survival at this stage, not just for DL but for all carriers. Worry about this crap down the road once the carrier is on a clear and sustained road to recovery.


I think one of the issues is that a clear and sustained road to recovery looks exactly like a substantial reduction in long-haul flying on DL metal and a retrenchment to its domestic network as the core of the airline's operations for a few years. And so while I agree with you that now is not a great time and that it understandable that as a result of a reduction in long-haul flying there is naturally a growing imbalance, the pilots are doing what they need to do, and are smart to get out ahead of what they anticipate are going to be ongoing scope issues that will need to be resolved over the next few years, either through some kind of settlement to make pilots whole (as much as possible) or more deliberately putting DL metal on routes wherever possible.
 
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Polot
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Re: Delta ALPA concerned over continued JV scope flying violations

Thu Aug 20, 2020 3:32 pm

DMPHL wrote:
DL747400 wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
Right now it's just whining.


A skill that DL pilots have held for a very long time.

Now is not the time to be beating this drum. Continuing to do so just makes look like spoiled primadonnas. It's all about survival at this stage, not just for DL but for all carriers. Worry about this crap down the road once the carrier is on a clear and sustained road to recovery.


I think one of the issues is that a clear and sustained road to recovery looks exactly like a substantial reduction in long-haul flying on DL metal and a retrenchment to its domestic network as the core of the airline's operations for a few years. And so while I agree with you that now is not a great time and that it understandable that as a result of a reduction in long-haul flying there is naturally a growing imbalance, the pilots are doing what they need to do, and are smart to get out ahead of what they anticipate are going to be ongoing scope issues that will need to be resolved over the next few years, either through some kind of settlement to make pilots whole (as much as possible) or more deliberately putting DL metal on routes wherever possible.

Now (when long haul fleets are being slashed with no indication of when future growth/recovery will occur) is precisely the time to worry.

Desperate times mean you should absolutely support your own interests above cooperation with other airlines. Or else in the future DL will just argue that hey they absolutely would love to increase their share of wide body intercontinental flying, but alas they don’t have the planes and their partners do. Being proactive (ensuring DL pilots are getting their fair share during recovery period) is superior to being reactive (waiting for DL to recover then fighting to ensure pilots get their fair share).
Last edited by Polot on Thu Aug 20, 2020 3:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: Delta ALPA concerned over continued JV scope flying violations

Thu Aug 20, 2020 3:36 pm

DL747400 wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
Right now it's just whining.


A skill that DL pilots have held for a very long time.

Now is not the time to be beating this drum. Continuing to do so just makes look like spoiled primadonnas. It's all about survival at this stage, not just for DL but for all carriers. Worry about this crap down the road once the carrier is on a clear and sustained road to recovery.


Now is the best time to do it. Delta agreed to something and they are and have been in violation of what they agreed to. I'm sure Delta would be the first one's to complain if any one of their employee groups tried to do anything in violation of their agreements. Why is it big bad pilots an poor Delta. Delta management knows exactly what they are doing and should be called out on their violations. If anything the pilots should be commended for putting up with this nonsense for far to long anyway. The pilots are not the bullies here.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
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Re: Delta ALPA concerned over continued JV scope flying violations

Thu Aug 20, 2020 3:39 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
If DALPA doesn't like it they can grieve it, and then seek to enforce a win. Right now it's just whining.


Not sure it is whining, if they are winning the grieves. What it really says is DL management feels it is cheaper to wait than it is to settle the grievance.

To a degree it is whining, but I guess so much of what we do today is whining by this definition.
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goboeing
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Re: Delta ALPA concerned over continued JV scope flying violations

Thu Aug 20, 2020 3:45 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
If DALPA doesn't like it they can grieve it, and then seek to enforce a win. Right now it's just whining.


From your statement I have to question if you realize that the communication posted was not written to the public.

Rather, it was a letter from a chairman to his own pilot group.

Updates, information, etc.

Updating scope violation information and associated concerns is just keeping the pilot group informed.

So, the chairman of the union does not whine and complain to his constituency. It's simply an informational update.
 
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Re: Delta ALPA concerned over continued JV scope flying violations

Thu Aug 20, 2020 3:59 pm

Its hardly whining when ALPA seeks to enforce a basic provision in its mutually agreed contract that is creating harm to its members and potentially has much broader negative consequences for the U.S. industry.

Also today with so little flying, would be a great time actually to reset all the JV flying, and ensure flying that is returned is appropriately divided among partners as required in the respective regions.
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fly4ever78
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Re: Delta ALPA concerned over continued JV scope flying violations

Thu Aug 20, 2020 4:00 pm

Exactly why pilots need to hold the line in this downturn... Delta can get back to it's giant stock buy-backs AFTER they pay the pilots for all the scope violations they have willingly participated in.
 
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Re: Delta ALPA concerned over continued JV scope flying violations

Thu Aug 20, 2020 4:10 pm

DL747400 wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
Right now it's just whining.


A skill that DL pilots have held for a very long time.

Now is not the time to be beating this drum. Continuing to do so just makes look like spoiled primadonnas. It's all about survival at this stage, not just for DL but for all carriers. Worry about this crap down the road once the carrier is on a clear and sustained road to recovery.


If DL can't abide by the contract they agreed to, then they need to reach an amendment with DL ALPA. It seems as though they aren't even trying to do that, despite the fact that DL has already lost the grievance.

A contract is a legally binding document, no? Do you get to change the terms of your auto purchase contract just because we're in poor economic times? Would you be upset if the other party arbitrarily changed the terms?
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Re: Delta ALPA concerned over continued JV scope flying violations

Thu Aug 20, 2020 6:01 pm

goboeing wrote:
From your statement I have to question if you realize that the communication posted was not written to the public. Rather, it was a letter from a chairman to his own pilot group. Updates, information, etc. Updating scope violation information and associated concerns is just keeping the pilot group informed. So, the chairman of the union does not whine and complain to his constituency. It's simply an informational update.


Oh come on, don't be naïve! Don't think for one second that this was not written with the clear and full knowledge, understanding and INTENT that it would be leaked to the public, picked up by the media and published in multiple online newsfeeds. This is how unions communicate their message beyond their membership ranks.
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avek00
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Re: Delta ALPA concerned over continued JV scope flying violations

Thu Aug 20, 2020 6:54 pm

DL747400 wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
Right now it's just whining.


A skill that DL pilots have held for a very long time.

Now is not the time to be beating this drum. Continuing to do so just makes look like spoiled primadonnas. It's all about survival at this stage, not just for DL but for all carriers. Worry about this crap down the road once the carrier is on a clear and sustained road to recovery.


This is exactly the time DL pilots should be beating the drum. As it is, Delta pilots got an unfairly low share of the flying at a time when Delta possessed cost and efficiency advantages relative to nearly all its foreign JV partners. Absent course correction, the flying imbalances will get worse and stay bad long term as the partners, through restructuring or bankruptcies, revamp their cost structures to more closely match (or best) Delta's.
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alfa164
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Re: Delta ALPA concerned over continued JV scope flying violations

Thu Aug 20, 2020 7:09 pm

avek00 wrote:
As it is, Delta pilots got an unfairly low share of the flying at a time when Delta possessed cost and efficiency advantages relative to nearly all its foreign JV partners. Absent course correction, the flying imbalances will get worse and stay bad long term as the partners, through restructuring or bankruptcies, revamp their cost structures to more closely match (or best) Delta's.


Something here doesn't make sense. If Delta has a cost advantage over its partners (and I believe it does), why would the partners be doing the bulk of the flying? It is obvious that Delta flew to more secondary cities in Europe, for instance, and those flights may have helped balance-out the fact that AF/KL flew more to their respective hubs. I do see the claims being made, but I haven't seen anything with actual numbers of DL vs. partner flying. Without those numbers, this looks like posturing for the inevitable negotiations that will follow once cut-backs become permanent.

And I am sure Delta, like all other airlines, has a force majeure clause in their contracts. I am equally sure they would be loathe to use it... but it still is a possibility. That could take everyone - at a time when there will be a lot of pilots desperately looking for jobs - back to day one.
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sbworcs
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Re: Delta ALPA concerned over continued JV scope flying violations

Thu Aug 20, 2020 7:46 pm

klm617 wrote:
hoons90 wrote:
What routes could DL realistically add (especially in this climate) or take over from KE to balance things out?
Completely hand over SEA-ICN to DL? Transfer over a few LAX-ICN frequencies?


To start with they could take over all the ICN-ATL and LHR-ATL flying


Would this not then break the agreement by them having MORE of the JV flying?

As mentioned previously if (for example) before you had 100 international flights and the JV says 50 / 50 that is 50% each partner. If, however, you are only flying 4 flights then 75% of flying being done by one partner is only 1 flight difference
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Boof02671
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Re: Delta ALPA concerned over continued JV scope flying violations

Thu Aug 20, 2020 8:29 pm

DL747400 wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
Right now it's just whining.


A skill that DL pilots have held for a very long time.

Now is not the time to be beating this drum. Continuing to do so just makes look like spoiled primadonnas. It's all about survival at this stage, not just for DL but for all carriers. Worry about this crap down the road once the carrier is on a clear and sustained road to recovery.

So it’s ok for Delta to violate a contract they agreed too?

I don’t think so.
 
strfyr51
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Re: Delta ALPA concerned over continued JV scope flying violations

Thu Aug 20, 2020 9:04 pm

DTWLAX wrote:
UPlog wrote:
Its pretty simple.

Now its an even worse situation as DL pilots face prospects of finding themselves sitting at home on furlough while an even larger percentage of JV flying is in the hands of partner airlines.

Pandemic is hardly the excuse for DL to skate by its contractual commitments and ensure its employees get the appropriate share of international flying however small or largeP it may turn out to be.

How is an even larger percentage of JV flying in the hands of partner airlines now? It is not like partner airlines have replaced DL on the routes that DL has stopped flying.
Also should DL fly empty planes on long haul routes and lose money just to ensure pilots get their share of flying?


The Key Word? That DELTA Stopped flying, NOT that Delta Couldn't fly, And? Certainly not that the Delta Pilots were not Capable of flying The United Pilots wouldn't even make way for Singapore to fly a route that they themselves could fly, and United flies that route even today. Why? Because SQ can fly any route they please..
and United? Had better fly the route or Not Have the Destination Period! I see Delta ALPA facing this same outlook. I'm not mad at 'em.
 
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klm617
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Re: Delta ALPA concerned over continued JV scope flying violations

Thu Aug 20, 2020 9:16 pm

DTWLAX wrote:
UPlog wrote:
Its pretty simple.

Now its an even worse situation as DL pilots face prospects of finding themselves sitting at home on furlough while an even larger percentage of JV flying is in the hands of partner airlines.

Pandemic is hardly the excuse for DL to skate by its contractual commitments and ensure its employees get the appropriate share of international flying however small or largeP it may turn out to be.

How is an even larger percentage of JV flying in the hands of partner airlines now? It is not like partner airlines have replaced DL on the routes that DL has stopped flying.
Also should DL fly empty planes on long haul routes and lose money just to ensure pilots get their share of flying?


Come on in ATL alone JV carriers at the moment are carrying almost 50% of the traffic to Europe and Asia same for JFK. KE, KL and AF have more seats to their respective home markets than Delta on the same routes. BOS as well is heavily served by Delta's JV partners.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
Cactusjuba
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Re: Delta ALPA concerned over continued JV scope flying violations

Thu Aug 20, 2020 10:11 pm

DL747400 wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
Right now it's just whining.


A skill that DL pilots have held for a very long time.

Now is not the time to be beating this drum. Continuing to do so just makes look like spoiled primadonnas. It's all about survival at this stage, not just for DL but for all carriers. Worry about this crap down the road once the carrier is on a clear and sustained road to recovery.


Wow, give me a break. Do you think the pilots don't care about the survival of their company? You think they don't want it to thrive and be profitable? Their entire careers are married to the success of their company. Limiting outsourcing via JVs doesn't just benefit pilots, but every non-executive employee who has so much more to lose than distant hedge fund investors ever have to gain. That affects 100k-200k American workers and those who depend on them. Wasn't this same management advocating US gov action against ME3 for not "keeping their deals", and how it harmed US jobs?

But yeah, we got Dwight Schrute over here calling employees whiners, naive and primadonnas for having the audacity to call out their employers two-faced attempts to save DL family jobs while purposely violating their own contracts in order as to outsource them away.
 
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klm617
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Re: Delta ALPA concerned over continued JV scope flying violations

Thu Aug 20, 2020 10:14 pm

Cactusjuba wrote:
DL747400 wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
Right now it's just whining.


A skill that DL pilots have held for a very long time.

Now is not the time to be beating this drum. Continuing to do so just makes look like spoiled primadonnas. It's all about survival at this stage, not just for DL but for all carriers. Worry about this crap down the road once the carrier is on a clear and sustained road to recovery.


Wow, give me a break. Do you think the pilots don't care about the survival of their company? You think they don't want it to thrive and be profitable? Their entire careers are married to the success of their company. Limiting outsourcing via JVs doesn't just benefit pilots, but every non-executive employee who has so much more to lose than distant hedge fund investors ever have to gain. That affects 100k-200k American workers and those who depend on them. Wasn't this same management advocating US gov action against ME3 for not "keeping their deals", and how it harmed US jobs?

But yeah, we got Dwight Schrute over here calling employees whiners, naive and primadonnas for having the audacity to call out their employers two-faced attempts to save DL family jobs while purposely violating their own contracts in order as to outsource them away.


THIS !!!!!!!!!!!! very well said it's about time that some people on this forum get a reality check.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Delta ALPA concerned over continued JV scope flying violations

Thu Aug 20, 2020 10:29 pm

Is DL taking over AM flying from JFK-MEX and LAX-MEX part of the settlement?
 
flight152
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Re: Delta ALPA concerned over continued JV scope flying violations

Thu Aug 20, 2020 10:50 pm

Cactusjuba wrote:
DL747400 wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
Right now it's just whining.


A skill that DL pilots have held for a very long time.

Now is not the time to be beating this drum. Continuing to do so just makes look like spoiled primadonnas. It's all about survival at this stage, not just for DL but for all carriers. Worry about this crap down the road once the carrier is on a clear and sustained road to recovery.


Wow, give me a break. Do you think the pilots don't care about the survival of their company? You think they don't want it to thrive and be profitable? Their entire careers are married to the success of their company. Limiting outsourcing via JVs doesn't just benefit pilots, but every non-executive employee who has so much more to lose than distant hedge fund investors ever have to gain. That affects 100k-200k American workers and those who depend on them. Wasn't this same management advocating US gov action against ME3 for not "keeping their deals", and how it harmed US jobs?

But yeah, we got Dwight Schrute over here calling employees whiners, naive and primadonnas for having the audacity to call out their employers two-faced attempts to save DL family jobs while purposely violating their own contracts in order as to outsource them away.

Damn, that’s really well said.
 
strfyr51
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Re: Delta ALPA concerned over continued JV scope flying violations

Thu Aug 20, 2020 10:56 pm

I don't think the pilots are saying to Delta Do not have any joint Ventures. I think what they're saying is? anything they can fly? We can also fly, And We're not intending to sit around and get Laid off so that you can outsource our international flying. while we sit on the sidelines! Delta got to BE great on the backs of their pilots and they're telling Delta you're NOT going to sideline US and let foreign airlines fly where WE could and should be flying as well. United also has JV partners and they have to share the wealth as well. United doesn't have JV partners flying anyplace they don't also fly and in case any of you forgot? They're ALSO ALPA!!
Did you for ONE minute think they wouldn't talk? Or did you believe the Delta Pilots were in some sort of void where they would ONLY Listen to Delta management?
if you Did? Well then? You're Wrong! And Pilots? Are about AS Militant as Union as you can GET! They Know who has done what and for Whom, And this isn't about Pay because Delta ALPA is one of the best Paid in the world. This is about watching their Jobs get outsourced.
 
addi375
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Re: Delta ALPA concerned over continued JV scope flying violations

Thu Aug 20, 2020 11:04 pm

With the retirement of the 747 and A-380 at AF KL VS it should help because they all flew larger denser equipment than DL so were able to carry more people. This has always been part of the problem.
eg ATL CDG in the summer was a 777-300/200 and A380 from AF and 2 764 from DL....Im counting out this summer but cant wait to see how it will be come next summer.

Should be interesting to see how they share the flying now with all the fleet pull downs on both sides of the JVs.
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Re: Delta ALPA concerned over continued JV scope flying violations

Thu Aug 20, 2020 11:37 pm

DL747400 wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
Right now it's just whining.


A skill that DL pilots have held for a very long time.

Now is not the time to be beating this drum. Continuing to do so just makes look like spoiled primadonnas. It's all about survival at this stage, not just for DL but for all carriers. Worry about this crap down the road once the carrier is on a clear and sustained road to recovery.


DL management is violating a written contract they have with the pilots.

It's no different than missing lease payments or rent at an airport. Should they skate free on that too?
 
Varsity1
Posts: 2238
Joined: Mon May 02, 2016 4:55 am

Re: Delta ALPA concerned over continued JV scope flying violations

Thu Aug 20, 2020 11:41 pm

alfa164 wrote:
avek00 wrote:
As it is, Delta pilots got an unfairly low share of the flying at a time when Delta possessed cost and efficiency advantages relative to nearly all its foreign JV partners. Absent course correction, the flying imbalances will get worse and stay bad long term as the partners, through restructuring or bankruptcies, revamp their cost structures to more closely match (or best) Delta's.


Something here doesn't make sense. If Delta has a cost advantage over its partners (and I believe it does), why would the partners be doing the bulk of the flying? It is obvious that Delta flew to more secondary cities in Europe, for instance, and those flights may have helped balance-out the fact that AF/KL flew more to their respective hubs. I do see the claims being made, but I haven't seen anything with actual numbers of DL vs. partner flying. Without those numbers, this looks like posturing for the inevitable negotiations that will follow once cut-backs become permanent.


The short answer is the partners needed to keep flying newer, expensive jets to keep the cashflow going.

It's cheaper to have VS fly their new A350 while Delta parks a 30 year old 767. It's one of the reasons DL took A350 deliveries from LATAM.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 2283
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: Delta ALPA concerned over continued JV scope flying violations

Thu Aug 20, 2020 11:50 pm

Also UA is removing seats from RJs due to Articles in the Pilot’s contract which ties amount of RJs and their size to the amount of mainline jets.
 
ordbosewr
Posts: 621
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2011 8:30 pm

Re: Delta ALPA concerned over continued JV scope flying violations

Fri Aug 21, 2020 12:03 am

Varsity1 wrote:
DL747400 wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
Right now it's just whining.


A skill that DL pilots have held for a very long time.

Now is not the time to be beating this drum. Continuing to do so just makes look like spoiled primadonnas. It's all about survival at this stage, not just for DL but for all carriers. Worry about this crap down the road once the carrier is on a clear and sustained road to recovery.


DL management is violating a written contract they have with the pilots.

It's no different than missing lease payments or rent at an airport. Should they skate free on that too?


I think the whining part is making the whole disagreement public.

DL is not following the contract that they agreed too (if the points above that grievances have been filed and won by the pilots). If it was the other way around Management would be quick to ensure action, just like when slowdowns happened at AA.
You can't have it both ways, a contract has to have both parties act in good faith.
 
fly4ever78
Posts: 79
Joined: Tue Mar 07, 2017 10:17 pm

Re: Delta ALPA concerned over continued JV scope flying violations

Fri Aug 21, 2020 12:58 am

Cactusjuba wrote:

Wow, give me a break. Do you think the pilots don't care about the survival of their company? You think they don't want it to thrive and be profitable? Their entire careers are married to the success of their company. Limiting outsourcing via JVs doesn't just benefit pilots, but every non-executive employee who has so much more to lose than distant hedge fund investors ever have to gain. That affects 100k-200k American workers and those who depend on them. Wasn't this same management advocating US gov action against ME3 for not "keeping their deals", and how it harmed US jobs?

But yeah, we got Dwight Schrute over here calling employees whiners, naive and primadonnas for having the audacity to call out their employers two-faced attempts to save DL family jobs while purposely violating their own contracts in order as to outsource them away.


Amen!!! I get so tired of reading posts that highlight economic conditions as reasons to abrogate contracts. FYI, these are CONTRACTS in good AND bad times. What is the point of even having one if one side can just do whatever they want? If the company cannot survive with the labor contract they signed, then it fails to move forward... done. I'm sure the stock options and golden parachutes will suffice for the "ones that have all the talent"
 
dstblj52
Posts: 529
Joined: Tue Nov 19, 2019 8:38 pm

Re: Delta ALPA concerned over continued JV scope flying violations

Fri Aug 21, 2020 1:00 am

ordbosewr wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
DL747400 wrote:

A skill that DL pilots have held for a very long time.

Now is not the time to be beating this drum. Continuing to do so just makes look like spoiled primadonnas. It's all about survival at this stage, not just for DL but for all carriers. Worry about this crap down the road once the carrier is on a clear and sustained road to recovery.


DL management is violating a written contract they have with the pilots.

It's no different than missing lease payments or rent at an airport. Should they skate free on that too?


I think the whining part is making the whole disagreement public.

DL is not following the contract that they agreed too (if the points above that grievances have been filed and won by the pilots). If it was the other way around Management would be quick to ensure action, just like when slowdowns happened at AA.
You can't have it both ways, a contract has to have both parties act in good faith.

DALPA did not make this public they wrote a communication to the pilot's group (whom they represent) to show they are aware of and are working on addressing the issue, that isn't making the issue public by any means. Do we really need a reminder that delta has the easiest labor relations of any of the majors by far.
 
brilondon
Posts: 3164
Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2005 6:56 am

Re: Delta ALPA concerned over continued JV scope flying violations

Fri Aug 21, 2020 1:01 am

DTWLAX wrote:
UPlog wrote:
Its pretty simple.

Now its an even worse situation as DL pilots face prospects of finding themselves sitting at home on furlough while an even larger percentage of JV flying is in the hands of partner airlines.

Pandemic is hardly the excuse for DL to skate by its contractual commitments and ensure its employees get the appropriate share of international flying however small or largeP it may turn out to be.

How is an even larger percentage of JV flying in the hands of partner airlines now? It is not like partner airlines have replaced DL on the routes that DL has stopped flying.
Also should DL fly empty planes on long haul routes and lose money just to ensure pilots get their share of flying?


If that how they are able to get the government funding, then yes they are required to keep their employees working.
Rush forever Closer To My Heart
 
IADCA
Posts: 2194
Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2007 12:24 am

Re: Delta ALPA concerned over continued JV scope flying violations

Fri Aug 21, 2020 1:18 am

DTWLAX wrote:
UPlog wrote:
Its pretty simple.

Now its an even worse situation as DL pilots face prospects of finding themselves sitting at home on furlough while an even larger percentage of JV flying is in the hands of partner airlines.

Pandemic is hardly the excuse for DL to skate by its contractual commitments and ensure its employees get the appropriate share of international flying however small or largeP it may turn out to be.

How is an even larger percentage of JV flying in the hands of partner airlines now? It is not like partner airlines have replaced DL on the routes that DL has stopped flying.
Also should DL fly empty planes on long haul routes and lose money just to ensure pilots get their share of flying?


Because starting from an already unbalanced starting point, DL and its JV partners made deeper cuts to pre-existing DL flying than on KL and AF metal, for example. I can't help you if you can't manage basic fractions.

You seem to be missing the point that these are revenue-sharing, metal-neutral JVs. DL is taking a certain hit regardless of whether the empty plane says Delta on the side or Air France because of the way the JV works. But again, if you can't manage fractions I'm not expecting you to understand something like that.
 
User avatar
klm617
Posts: 5248
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: Delta ALPA concerned over continued JV scope flying violations

Fri Aug 21, 2020 2:58 am

IADCA wrote:
DTWLAX wrote:
UPlog wrote:
Its pretty simple.

Now its an even worse situation as DL pilots face prospects of finding themselves sitting at home on furlough while an even larger percentage of JV flying is in the hands of partner airlines.

Pandemic is hardly the excuse for DL to skate by its contractual commitments and ensure its employees get the appropriate share of international flying however small or largeP it may turn out to be.

How is an even larger percentage of JV flying in the hands of partner airlines now? It is not like partner airlines have replaced DL on the routes that DL has stopped flying.
Also should DL fly empty planes on long haul routes and lose money just to ensure pilots get their share of flying?


Because starting from an already unbalanced starting point, DL and its JV partners made deeper cuts to pre-existing DL flying than on KL and AF metal, for example. I can't help you if you can't manage basic fractions.

You seem to be missing the point that these are revenue-sharing, metal-neutral JVs. DL is taking a certain hit regardless of whether the empty plane says Delta on the side or Air France because of the way the JV works. But again, if you can't manage fractions I'm not expecting you to understand something like that.


It's a pretty simple fix all Delta has to do is take over all the Atlanta flying since that is their main base of operations that would be most logical. They have the equipment all ready their so scheduling shouldn't be that big of an issue.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
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adambrau
Posts: 339
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2007 11:44 pm

Re: Delta ALPA concerned over continued JV scope flying violations

Fri Aug 21, 2020 4:33 am

As an AF employee at JFK, I can only say that Delta folks were better paid prior to the pandemic.

Delta and ALPA agreed to use JV partners where DL could not compete.

No one is making money these days.

Agree the line can be angry at DL management for allowing us to dominate JFK-CDG. And more so to KE beyond ICN.

No one complained much until the Virus brought everyone to their knees. Everyone said AA and UA were smarter to increase their int'l flying while DL outsourced.

But the truth is DL was smart to outsource int'l flying, because now UA and AA are going to tank.

Domestic travel will pick up first.

Let's keep the Skyteam happy fellas.
JFK Friendly
 
FlyingElvii
Posts: 995
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: Delta ALPA concerned over continued JV scope flying violations

Fri Aug 21, 2020 5:53 am

LAXintl wrote:
ALPA continues to be concerned at the ongoing contract violations at Delta after having won multiple arbitrations against the company.

Latest communication of subject dated today.

Image
https://i.ibb.co/KDT3bK8/2020-08-19-160527.png

Can't disagree with them that ongoing violations are unacceptable especially while Delta's own pilots are at risk of furlough.


Previous thread on topic from last year:

Delta pilots file objection to expanded JVs >>>> viewtopic.php?t=1429411


Not sure about
Korean, but aren’t the Virgin and Air afrance Tripp’s being operated under the local countries bailout rules?
 
Cactusjuba
Posts: 253
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2017 8:06 am

Re: Delta ALPA concerned over continued JV scope flying violations

Fri Aug 21, 2020 6:34 am

adambrau wrote:
As an AF employee at JFK, I can only say that Delta folks were better paid prior to the pandemic.

Delta and ALPA agreed to use JV partners where DL could not compete.

No one is making money these days.

Agree the line can be angry at DL management for allowing us to dominate JFK-CDG. And more so to KE beyond ICN.

No one complained much until the Virus brought everyone to their knees. Everyone said AA and UA were smarter to increase their int'l flying while DL outsourced.

But the truth is DL was smart to outsource int'l flying, because now UA and AA are going to tank.

Domestic travel will pick up first.

Let's keep the Skyteam happy fellas.


Not true. Pilot's have been fighting for a long time. Only since Ed took the helm have we seen this aggressive push to favor lower cost JV partners in lieu of organic growth. The non-contract employees are ignorant because they only hear what their bosses tell them. And for the record, the ALPA message has never been anti-JV, only 'equitable growth" and both airlines (including stakeholders like employees) equally growing together.

But their CFO said earlier this year: "through our alliance network and joint ventures… we are able to really broaden the network internationally and globally with a much more effective rate of return…more than it would be for us to buy widebody airplanes and go out and grow organically…”.

Delta asked ALPA in negotiations last year to set the baseline for the Aeromexico JV at 66% AM, 33% DL. The JVs for AM and KE still have not reached any ratio agreement, as DL firmly commits to less than equitable ratios. We read above why they don't want to grow organically. This pandemic has swung leverage back towards management. Never let a good crisis go to waste. ALPA has been stalled in scope negotiations for years now. Pilots have learned hard scope lessons in the past, and won't be played like a fiddle this round.
 
Andy33
Posts: 2569
Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2009 9:30 am

Re: Delta ALPA concerned over continued JV scope flying violations

Fri Aug 21, 2020 7:07 am

FlyingElvii wrote:
LAXintl wrote:
ALPA continues to be concerned at the ongoing contract violations at Delta after having won multiple arbitrations against the company.

Latest communication of subject dated today.

Image
https://i.ibb.co/KDT3bK8/2020-08-19-160527.png

Can't disagree with them that ongoing violations are unacceptable especially while Delta's own pilots are at risk of furlough.


Previous thread on topic from last year:

Delta pilots file objection to expanded JVs >>>> viewtopic.php?t=1429411


Not sure about
Korean, but aren’t the Virgin and Air afrance Tripp’s being operated under the local countries bailout rules?

UK government bailout plans don't require airlines to operate any fixed proportion of their flights, and in any case so far at least Virgin Atlantic has not received any government bailout.

The UK government required a significant proportion of any funding required to come from other sources (existing stockholders, stock market placings, banks, investment funds, sale and leaseback of assets etc) and VS didn't manage to achieve that. British Airways and Easyjet, for example, did achieve it and got government funding. Part of the problem is that 49% Delta stockholding - Delta was prohibited from contributing cash because of conditions in the CARES Act, could not increase its ownership percentage under UK legislation, and was unwilling to reduce its percentage by selling to others, even if anyone had wanted to buy. The other problem was that VS has only been marginally profitable, and unmortgaged assets were few indeed.
Some sort of non-government rescue plan is in place, but there's precious little cash involved, mostly deferrals of payments that had fallen due.
 
737MAX7
Posts: 158
Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2017 7:26 pm

Re: Delta ALPA concerned over continued JV scope flying violations

Fri Aug 21, 2020 2:33 pm

Cactusjuba wrote:
DL747400 wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
Right now it's just whining.


A skill that DL pilots have held for a very long time.

Now is not the time to be beating this drum. Continuing to do so just makes look like spoiled primadonnas. It's all about survival at this stage, not just for DL but for all carriers. Worry about this crap down the road once the carrier is on a clear and sustained road to recovery.


Wow, give me a break. Do you think the pilots don't care about the survival of their company? You think they don't want it to thrive and be profitable? Their entire careers are married to the success of their company. Limiting outsourcing via JVs doesn't just benefit pilots, but every non-executive employee who has so much more to lose than distant hedge fund investors ever have to gain. That affects 100k-200k American workers and those who depend on them. Wasn't this same management advocating US gov action against ME3 for not "keeping their deals", and how it harmed US jobs?

But yeah, we got Dwight Schrute over here calling employees whiners, naive and primadonnas for having the audacity to call out their employers two-faced attempts to save DL family jobs while purposely violating their own contracts in order as to outsource them away.

This..... ALL of this. But the same ones complaining about the DALPA are the same ones that hate unions to begin with.

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