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Noshow
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Re: Updated: Boeing to Consolidate 787 Production in South Carolina

Thu Oct 01, 2020 4:16 pm

They need new programs for Everett soon. Hopefully behind the scenes some NMA2 arrangements could be made as trade in for losing the 787. Otherwise the new wing factory doesn't make sense at all.
 
Lootess
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Re: Updated: Boeing to Consolidate 787 Production in South Carolina

Thu Oct 01, 2020 4:23 pm

Nope, no new program for Everett soon. 777X or bust.

Like I said, not sure why anyone is shocked by the decision, they can't fly the 787-10 parts to Everett and you sure as hell not going to build a new 787-10 facility just for the sake of being Puget Sound proud. Charleston has everything going for it since the day they said they were assessing consolidation, they forfeited the subsidies earlier in the year because of WTO concerns, so that was off the board too.
 
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PepeTheFrog
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Re: Updated: Boeing to Consolidate 787 Production in South Carolina

Thu Oct 01, 2020 4:36 pm

Noshow wrote:
They need new programs for Everett soon.


Don't think that will happen. Boeing HQ doesn't like unions and would rather buy more ground in South Carolina than setting up a new production line in Seattle.
Good moaning!
 
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PepeTheFrog
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Re: Boeing Considers Closing 787 Production in WA

Thu Oct 01, 2020 4:40 pm

Revelation wrote:
Yet they also say:

This does not change our commitment to Puget Sound, where the 737, 747, 767, 777 & more are assembled.

Ref: https://twitter.com/BoeingAirplanes/sta ... 2500379654

... which is corporate double speak nonsense.


And the 747 line will close in 2022.
Good moaning!
 
iamlucky13
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Re: Updated: Boeing to Consolidate 787 Production in South Carolina

Thu Oct 01, 2020 6:17 pm

Lootess wrote:
Nope, no new program for Everett soon. 777X or bust.

Like I said, not sure why anyone is shocked by the decision, they can't fly the 787-10 parts to Everett and you sure as hell not going to build a new 787-10 facility just for the sake of being Puget Sound proud. Charleston has everything going for it since the day they said they were assessing consolidation, they forfeited the subsidies earlier in the year because of WTO concerns, so that was off the board too.


I guess I have to ask: are any of the people who seem to be expressing dismay actually surprised, or just frustrated? Is there a belief that Boeing is making a financially poor decision, such as for the sake of spiting the unions?

Separately, while this no longer relevant, I'd like to bring up for the sake of clarity:

The constraint on the 787-10 is the center fuselage section is too long for the Dreamlifter. The center fuselage consists of 3 barrel sections (43 from Kawasaki, and 44 and 46 from Leonardo), plus the center wingbox (from Fuji).

None of those pieces are built in Charleston. They get flown there, assembled together, and some of the systems and interior fittings are installed.

In order for Washington to be chosen, it would have been necessary to move only that intermediate assembly work.

It is my perception that most people believe significantly more would have needed to be moved. In reality, the carbon fiber layup machines, the giant mandrels and other tooling, the autoclaves, the trimming machines, and the work stations for installing the frames and floor beams could remain in their current locations in Italy and Japan.

However, even though I don't think the cost of moving that work would have been remarkably high, it was still an additional factor combined with labor costs and strike risks that was working against Washington. I had a dim glimmer of hope to the contrary, but I'm not surprised with this decision
 
KarlB737
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Re: Boeing Considers Closing 787 Production in WA

Thu Oct 01, 2020 6:43 pm

USAirALB wrote:
Purely a political move. Production will not leave WA.


Here another writeup courtesy Fox Business:

Boeing Announces 787 Production Moving To South Carolina In 2021

https://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/boeing-787-production-south-carolina
 
MrBretz
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Re: Updated: Boeing to Consolidate 787 Production in South Carolina

Thu Oct 01, 2020 6:45 pm

I wonder if relocation will be offered to some employees? I have visited SC throughout the years. The area is quite nice. I’m sure some of the WA staters would like the area. I know there are “union” issues. Good luck to all.
 
2175301
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Re: Boeing Considers Closing 787 Production in WA

Thu Oct 01, 2020 6:56 pm

Sooner787 wrote:
Wonder is Boeing will offer relo packages to the 787 workers in KPAE ?
From what we've heard about QC issues on the Charleston line, they could
use some help down there :)


Could you provide some facts and not just some ancedental evidence;

According to the current spreadsheet on "All Things 787" it appears that Charleston has produced and delivered to customers a total 379 787 aircraft, 7 stored this year, and 21 on the Flightline (this spreadsheet is updated frequently so these numbers will change)

Of course Everett has produced far more than that.

Is there evidence that the end customers are having more difficulty or in service problems with the Charleston produced frames over the Everett produced frames.

That would be an indication of quality issues at Charleston above the normal mistakes that occur in any assembly line (including Everett).

Please produce the evidence... or is there no meaningful difference? If its the later I'm not sure what your complaint is.

Have a great day,
 
Bradin
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Re: Boeing Considers Closing 787 Production in WA

Thu Oct 01, 2020 7:17 pm

Revelation wrote:
max999 wrote:
It's fait accompli. The whole study was a dog and pony show by Boeing management pretending they put careful thought and consideration into this decision.

Are they wrong to pick CHS over PAE, given the whole idea is to save as much money as possible?

Meanwhile we read the high quality home grown KC46 has missed a delivery date due to an electrical problem: https://www.defensenews.com/air/2020/10 ... -problems/

Sooner787 wrote:
Wonder is Boeing will offer relo packages to the 787 workers in KPAE ?
From what we've heard about QC issues on the Charleston line, they could
use some help down there :)

We hear things about CHS, PAE and RNT.


It's tough to say if its a good idea or bad idea. On one hand, I think it's a great idea because it means all the troubleshooting, logistics, etc. are consolidated. It probably means all the resources, talent, etc. under one roof will improve quality overall.

On the other hand, there's a part of me that realistically wonders if anyone would want a 787-10 anytime soon because the global economy grinded to a halt.
 
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Antaras
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Re: Updated: Boeing to Consolidate 787 Production in South Carolina

Thu Oct 01, 2020 7:20 pm

Well QR is gonna cry.

Cry so loud.
If you disagree with my statement, assume that it was just a joke :duck:
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: Updated: Boeing to Consolidate 787 Production in South Carolina

Thu Oct 01, 2020 7:32 pm

Seniority of the Union workers can be playing a part, just like DL is having with the A220 at the moment, once RIF's occur basically all the lowest seniority FO's are gone, DL will need to train a complete new set from those that have bumping rights.

The 787 is the last added program at Everett, so probably a lot of 747, 767, and 777 workers can bump those on the 787 line. They would need to be trained for the new work. But a separate seniority list at CHS (well really no list at CHS) avoids any retraining.

It is sad to see the 787 leaving Everett, but now Everett will have plenty of space for NSA production late in the 2020's with the 747 and 787 halls being vacant. I suspect that the NSA will be CFRP barrels so a much more automated line.
 
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FrenchPotatoEye
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Re: Updated: Boeing to Consolidate 787 Production in South Carolina

Thu Oct 01, 2020 8:17 pm

Antaras wrote:
Well QR is gonna cry.

Cry so loud.


Qwattar Air got no choice. It can cancel I guess.

Who cares.

Great news for SC jobs.
 
LMP737
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Re: Updated: Boeing to Consolidate 787 Production in South Carolina

Thu Oct 01, 2020 10:25 pm

MrBretz wrote:
I wonder if relocation will be offered to some employees? I have visited SC throughout the years. The area is quite nice. I’m sure some of the WA staters would like the area. I know there are “union” issues. Good luck to all.


Maybe on the engineering side but not on the hourly side. Management views any hourly worker as a threat to CHS.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
LMP737
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Re: Updated: Boeing to Consolidate 787 Production in South Carolina

Thu Oct 01, 2020 10:41 pm

Noshow wrote:
They need new programs for Everett soon. Hopefully behind the scenes some NMA2 arrangements could be made as trade in for losing the 787. Otherwise the new wing factory doesn't make sense at all.


None of which is going to happen. IMHO the long term plan is to make the Everett facility the worlds largest empty building, buy volume. And before anyone scoffs at this let me remind you that in 1991 MD in Long Beach delivered a record number of aircraft. Fifteen years latter they closed the doors.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
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PepeTheFrog
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Re: Updated: Boeing to Consolidate 787 Production in South Carolina

Thu Oct 01, 2020 10:50 pm

And Leeham is spot on again: https://leehamnews.com/2020/10/01/retro ... st-mortem/

Washington politicians and interested parties, The Seattle Times and even a South Carolina official, characterized Everett’s loss as a “wake-up call.” We find this laughable. Boeing’s move of headquarters in 2001 from Seattle to Chicago was a “wake-up call.” So was the near-miss in 2003 to land Line 1. So was our prediction last April that Line 2 would go to Charleston and subsequent airplane programs would not be in Washington. Boeing has been sourcing airplane production outside the state for decades.

How many wake-up calls do Washington stakeholders need before they wake up and find Boeing is gone?
Good moaning!
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Updated: Boeing to Consolidate 787 Production in South Carolina

Thu Oct 01, 2020 10:58 pm

What may be for sure Boeing is unlikely ask for any tax breaks in the future. And if they do, the state will ask for a contract and signature.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
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Stitch
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Re: Updated: Boeing to Consolidate 787 Production in South Carolina

Thu Oct 01, 2020 11:17 pm

Boeing was given billions of dollars in relief from the Washington State "business environment". Boeing just didn't want to have to deal with the threat of a strike when business was booming (as had happened before) to force their hand at the negotiating table.

Yet even if the State Legislature had agreed to the legislative busting of the unions by making Washington a Right to Work state, that might not have been a panacea for Boeing since it would not have disbanded the unions, just given employees an option to not be part of one and one wonders how much of the rank and file would trust Boeing to not screw them over if they no longer had the union's support in negotiations.
Last edited by Stitch on Thu Oct 01, 2020 11:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
slcdeltarumd11
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Re: Updated: Boeing to Consolidate 787 Production in South Carolina

Thu Oct 01, 2020 11:17 pm

In this economy I think alot of people will move to keep their job and seniority. People will relocate out of Seattle for their jobs right now. People are apprehensive of the future and moving to a new company with layoffs first in, first out will push engineers and people to relocate to keep their seniority and jobs. Boeing will get people to move right now, it's a weird time and I think alot of people want to have job security more then anything. Sadly many others will get laid off, but Boeing will get enough to move.

Plus sell your house your purchased in Seattle 10-15 years ago and you can get a mcmansion in South Carolina for the same price with a larger yard now.

Hate to go there but I don't think Washington politicians didn't valued Boeing enough and they are slowly losing a main driver of their economy
 
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Revelation
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Re: Updated: Boeing to Consolidate 787 Production in South Carolina

Fri Oct 02, 2020 12:31 am

slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
In this economy I think alot of people will move to keep their job and seniority. People will relocate out of Seattle for their jobs right now. People are apprehensive of the future and moving to a new company with layoffs first in, first out will push engineers and people to relocate to keep their seniority and jobs. Boeing will get people to move right now, it's a weird time and I think alot of people want to have job security more then anything. Sadly many others will get laid off, but Boeing will get enough to move.

Plus sell your house your purchased in Seattle 10-15 years ago and you can get a mcmansion in South Carolina for the same price with a larger yard now.

Hate to go there but I don't think Washington politicians didn't valued Boeing enough and they are slowly losing a main driver of their economy

We don't know if (a) CHS will be hiring at all or (b) PAE workers will be offered positions.
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USAirKid
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Re: Updated: Boeing to Consolidate 787 Production in South Carolina

Fri Oct 02, 2020 12:56 am

PepeTheFrog wrote:
And Leeham is spot on again: https://leehamnews.com/2020/10/01/retro ... st-mortem/

How many wake-up calls do Washington stakeholders need before they wake up and find Boeing is gone?


frmrCapCadet wrote:
What may be for sure Boeing is unlikely ask for any tax breaks in the future. And if they do, the state will ask for a contract and signature.


Stitch wrote:
Boeing was given billions of dollars in relief from the Washington State "business environment". Boeing just didn't want to have to deal with the threat of a strike when business was booming (as had happened before) to force their hand at the negotiating table.

Stitch wrote:
Hate to go there but I don't think Washington politicians didn't valued Boeing enough and they are slowly losing a main driver of their economy


I'm not sure what else Washington State could have done. Boeing has had significant tax breaks ($100 million a year is what comes to mind, but don't quote me.)

Both the governor's office and union reached out to Boeing during the process and asked what they could do to keep all of the 787 assembly in Seattle, and there was no response.

In a speech today Governor Jay Inslee has gone the other way and states that he'll be talking to the legislature about rescinding some of the tax breaks.

Washington state has taken care of Boeing in the past and in the future. What else does Boeing want? The blood of the legislature and governor?
 
Lootess
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Re: Updated: Boeing to Consolidate 787 Production in South Carolina

Fri Oct 02, 2020 2:30 am

USAirKid wrote:
PepeTheFrog wrote:
And Leeham is spot on again: https://leehamnews.com/2020/10/01/retro ... st-mortem/

How many wake-up calls do Washington stakeholders need before they wake up and find Boeing is gone?


frmrCapCadet wrote:
What may be for sure Boeing is unlikely ask for any tax breaks in the future. And if they do, the state will ask for a contract and signature.


Stitch wrote:
Boeing was given billions of dollars in relief from the Washington State "business environment". Boeing just didn't want to have to deal with the threat of a strike when business was booming (as had happened before) to force their hand at the negotiating table.

Stitch wrote:
Hate to go there but I don't think Washington politicians didn't valued Boeing enough and they are slowly losing a main driver of their economy


I'm not sure what else Washington State could have done. Boeing has had significant tax breaks ($100 million a year is what comes to mind, but don't quote me.)

Both the governor's office and union reached out to Boeing during the process and asked what they could do to keep all of the 787 assembly in Seattle, and there was no response.

In a speech today Governor Jay Inslee has gone the other way and states that he'll be talking to the legislature about rescinding some of the tax breaks.

Washington state has taken care of Boeing in the past and in the future. What else does Boeing want? The blood of the legislature and governor?


When The Boeing Company is losing over $2.5 billion, with no end in sight, and multiple failures through out all it's divisions such as MAX, and Starliner. There isn't going be anything that government can do.

Boeing already dropped the last state subsidy back in March cause of the WTO and to prevent tariffs, it's about $100 million a year. So basically were freed from the shackles of Washington State.

Bringing the 787-10 middle fuselage work to Everett was not in the picture, you can shut the lights in Everett tomorrow and Charleston can still operate. But they don't have the capacity that Everett has, so it's possible they may offer some machinists and engineers to go to CHS. I just think this decision was also a way to drop excess union carded employees like IAM and SPEEA from the equation.
 
USAirKid
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Re: Updated: Boeing to Consolidate 787 Production in South Carolina

Fri Oct 02, 2020 2:38 am

Lootess wrote:
Boeing already dropped the last state subsidy back in March cause of the WTO and to prevent tariffs, it's about $100 million a year. So basically were freed from the shackles of Washington State.


The Governor seems to think Boeing is receiving favorable treatment from the state from KUOW:

Inslee says that the move out of Everett "would force a review" of the partnership between Washington state and Boeing, "including a hard look at the company’s favorable tax treatment."
 
Lootess
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Re: Updated: Boeing to Consolidate 787 Production in South Carolina

Fri Oct 02, 2020 3:02 am

USAirKid wrote:
Lootess wrote:
Boeing already dropped the last state subsidy back in March cause of the WTO and to prevent tariffs, it's about $100 million a year. So basically were freed from the shackles of Washington State.


The Governor seems to think Boeing is receiving favorable treatment from the state from KUOW:

Inslee says that the move out of Everett "would force a review" of the partnership between Washington state and Boeing, "including a hard look at the company’s favorable tax treatment."


Sour antics.
 
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Stitch
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Re: Updated: Boeing to Consolidate 787 Production in South Carolina

Fri Oct 02, 2020 4:33 am

Lootess wrote:
Sour antics.


While the 40% reduction in the Business and Occupation tax originally grantees in 2003 under HB 2294 for producing "superefficient airplanes" was repealed earlier this year, there are probably other tax breaks and incentives that Boeing received for both the 787 and 777X that could become forfeit in the case of those tied to the 787 now that the plane will no longer be produced in Washington.

It will be interesting to see how the IAM and SPEEA approach their next contracts. At Boeing's insistence, IAM agreed to an eight-year (versus the traditional four year) term in 2014, though it passed by less than 2% and SPEAA approved a six-year contract earlier this year by a literal handful of votes. Both unions will see members' jobs terminated with the 787 program leaving.
 
HVN2HEL2LAX
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Re: Updated: Boeing to Consolidate 787 Production in South Carolina

Fri Oct 02, 2020 7:00 am

Not necessarily proud, but I don't think the state of WA really cares about Boeing as much. Think about how many other large corporations call the Seattle metro area home. I mean Amazon owns most of downtown Seattle. I bet you won't even notice the difference during commute rush hour its so crazy there.

Are you sure the folks loosing their spots at PAE will be able to transfer to CHS?
 
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FrenchPotatoEye
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Re: Updated: Boeing to Consolidate 787 Production in South Carolina

Fri Oct 02, 2020 7:05 am

Stitch wrote:
Lootess wrote:
Sour antics.


While the 40% reduction in the Business and Occupation tax originally grantees in 2003 under HB 2294 for producing "superefficient airplanes" was repealed earlier this year, there are probably other tax breaks and incentives that Boeing received for both the 787 and 777X that could become forfeit in the case of those tied to the 787 now that the plane will no longer be produced in Washington.

It will be interesting to see how the IAM and SPEEA approach their next contracts. At Boeing's insistence, IAM agreed to an eight-year (versus the traditional four year) term in 2014, though it passed by less than 2% and SPEAA approved a six-year contract earlier this year by a literal handful of votes. Both unions will see members' jobs terminated with the 787 program leaving.


They should not have the done strikeing in 2008.

Too late now.

Even 100 year deal will not save jobs. SC got a great gig now. Max replacements will be built there too.

Only tanker and 77x for the Washingtonians.
 
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Channex757
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Re: Updated: Boeing to Consolidate 787 Production in South Carolina

Fri Oct 02, 2020 7:58 am

FrenchPotatoEye wrote:
Stitch wrote:
Lootess wrote:
Sour antics.


While the 40% reduction in the Business and Occupation tax originally grantees in 2003 under HB 2294 for producing "superefficient airplanes" was repealed earlier this year, there are probably other tax breaks and incentives that Boeing received for both the 787 and 777X that could become forfeit in the case of those tied to the 787 now that the plane will no longer be produced in Washington.

It will be interesting to see how the IAM and SPEEA approach their next contracts. At Boeing's insistence, IAM agreed to an eight-year (versus the traditional four year) term in 2014, though it passed by less than 2% and SPEAA approved a six-year contract earlier this year by a literal handful of votes. Both unions will see members' jobs terminated with the 787 program leaving.


They should not have the done strikeing in 2008.

Too late now.

Even 100 year deal will not save jobs. SC got a great gig now. Max replacements will be built there too.

Only tanker and 77x for the Washingtonians.


Not often I agree with you but....

I can see Boeing closing their Boeing Field operations in the medium term and relocating to another Right To Work location (not necessarily Charleston). The 737 replacement will go out of the state. That just leaves Everett with two limited time programs building the KC46 and 777X. What happens then?
 
777Mech
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Re: Updated: Boeing to Consolidate 787 Production in South Carolina

Fri Oct 02, 2020 9:56 am

Channex757 wrote:
FrenchPotatoEye wrote:
Stitch wrote:

While the 40% reduction in the Business and Occupation tax originally grantees in 2003 under HB 2294 for producing "superefficient airplanes" was repealed earlier this year, there are probably other tax breaks and incentives that Boeing received for both the 787 and 777X that could become forfeit in the case of those tied to the 787 now that the plane will no longer be produced in Washington.

It will be interesting to see how the IAM and SPEEA approach their next contracts. At Boeing's insistence, IAM agreed to an eight-year (versus the traditional four year) term in 2014, though it passed by less than 2% and SPEAA approved a six-year contract earlier this year by a literal handful of votes. Both unions will see members' jobs terminated with the 787 program leaving.


They should not have the done strikeing in 2008.

Too late now.

Even 100 year deal will not save jobs. SC got a great gig now. Max replacements will be built there too.

Only tanker and 77x for the Washingtonians.


Not often I agree with you but....

I can see Boeing closing their Boeing Field operations in the medium term and relocating to another Right To Work location (not necessarily Charleston). The 737 replacement will go out of the state. That just leaves Everett with two limited time programs building the KC46 and 777X. What happens then?


Its funny you bring up the MAX relocation, I had seen on a railroad forum some months ago that BNSF/Norfolk Southern were asked by an unidentified customer to determine if oversize "barrels" could be transported through their system, specifically to Middle GA regional airport.

It could have been Boeing, but I don't think they have a presence there at all, but Embraer does. I'm not familiar at all with MCN . I'm not even sure they have the space or runway length for any sort of production.
 
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PepeTheFrog
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Re: Updated: Boeing to Consolidate 787 Production in South Carolina

Fri Oct 02, 2020 10:35 am

USAirKid wrote:

Washington state has taken care of Boeing in the past and in the future. What else does Boeing want? The blood of the legislature and governor?


A state without unions.
Good moaning!
 
Noshow
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Re: Updated: Boeing to Consolidate 787 Production in South Carolina

Fri Oct 02, 2020 10:59 am

This move will not relax the situation within the company and it will deteriorate the cost base of the Everett site. What Boeing needs Is smart diplomacy to bring back the different coasts and groups of employees not more confrontation. I hope the company top is aware of this. It must stop to fight unions. It must live with unionized workers and engineers. Motivated, job secure, higher productive staff can even be an advantage.
I am aware that unions have had their share in where we are right now.
 
mxaxai
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Re: Updated: Boeing to Consolidate 787 Production in South Carolina

Fri Oct 02, 2020 12:38 pm

USAirKid wrote:
I'm not sure what else Washington State could have done. Boeing has had significant tax breaks ($100 million a year is what comes to mind, but don't quote me.)

Washington state has taken care of Boeing in the past and in the future. What else does Boeing want? The blood of the legislature and governor?

Warm weather and less rain. WA should've been more proactive to assist global warming. Can't have weather delay your test flights on 6 days a week.
 
Sokes
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Re: Updated: Boeing to Consolidate 787 Production in South Carolina

Fri Oct 02, 2020 12:53 pm

Noshow wrote:
job secure, higher productive staff can even be an advantage.
I am aware that unions have had their share in where we are right now.

I understand Boeing doesn't want to depend on one place. Even if Washington had to be a better decision, for future bargaining power it makes more sense to maintain a second location.

Do employees in Charleston earn bad?
Are they less productive?
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
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flyingclrs727
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Re: Boeing Considers Closing 787 Production in WA

Fri Oct 02, 2020 1:11 pm

JayinKitsap wrote:
Not the accounting block stuff again, and again, and again, and again.

Deferred production costs are already spent by Boeing, program accounting is basically allocating this over 1,600 airplanes (just by memory, don't crucify me if it is 1,500). Boeing has sold close to the accounting block. Each plane delivered has about $30M written off, reducing profit at that time. Technically, the 787 is in the red, but there is $30M of cash flow as Boeing pays Boeing this amount. It is unlikely this will be written off as long as the accounting block eventually gets delivered.

The harsh reality is the steep drop in the planes produced in Everett, even temporarily idling the 787 line here crushes the Everett workforce. But keeping both open running at very low rates means both sites lose lots of jobs. The number of manhours to assemble each plane is mostly constant, there are some increased manhours due to being less efficient at a lower rate. Consolidation to one FAL producing 6 per month has lower cost compared to 2 FAL at rate 3. It is going to happen as Boeing has to reduce every cost to the minimum to make it thru this.

In particular the 747 bays at Everett probably need a lot of work done on them. As the 747 line closes there will be a year or more of construction renovating the building. Spending $100M to do this with no time constraints makes sense. That provides a great space for a new program out 5 years from now, hopefully the NMA, but possibly the NSA with a revised EIS of 2028-29 time frame. There is a year or so before any decisions are made. It might be to just have hanger space for the other production.


But what if Boeing makes deals on 787-8 as they did with the AA as a 763 replacement? Maybe they won't write down $30 million per plane, but it could keep the volume up on the Charleston 787 line. The 787-8 still has lower fuel burn than a 763 or 764 on the same route. The extra range of the 787-8 allows thinner routes than the 787-9 and longer routes than the 763.
 
Cubsrule
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Re: Updated: Boeing to Consolidate 787 Production in South Carolina

Fri Oct 02, 2020 1:29 pm

777Mech wrote:
Channex757 wrote:
FrenchPotatoEye wrote:

They should not have the done strikeing in 2008.

Too late now.

Even 100 year deal will not save jobs. SC got a great gig now. Max replacements will be built there too.

Only tanker and 77x for the Washingtonians.


Not often I agree with you but....

I can see Boeing closing their Boeing Field operations in the medium term and relocating to another Right To Work location (not necessarily Charleston). The 737 replacement will go out of the state. That just leaves Everett with two limited time programs building the KC46 and 777X. What happens then?


Its funny you bring up the MAX relocation, I had seen on a railroad forum some months ago that BNSF/Norfolk Southern were asked by an unidentified customer to determine if oversize "barrels" could be transported through their system, specifically to Middle GA regional airport.

It could have been Boeing, but I don't think they have a presence there at all, but Embraer does. I'm not familiar at all with MCN . I'm not even sure they have the space or runway length for any sort of production.


MCN has plenty of space (the footprint of Boeing Charleston could fit on vacant land on airport property with room to spare), but runway length is an issue; the principal runway is only 6,500 feet.
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Re: Updated: Boeing to Consolidate 787 Production in South Carolina

Fri Oct 02, 2020 1:30 pm

As others have pointed out, the elephant in the room is Covid-19. Even if Airbus, Boeing, GE, PW, Rolls etc had done everything right in the last 20 years (most committed almost fatal errors) their condition would be critical approaching grave. Companies with huge numbers of employees and a fragile chain of providers and customers who are prone to bankruptcy cannot survive a sudden (up to) four years of almost no sales.
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Noshow
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Re: Updated: Boeing to Consolidate 787 Production in South Carolina

Fri Oct 02, 2020 1:34 pm

What happened to Boeing plans to maybe grow production at Moses Lake inland but not so far from Seattle?
 
glbltrvlr
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Re: Updated: Boeing to Consolidate 787 Production in South Carolina

Fri Oct 02, 2020 2:37 pm

It's clear BA is going to be looking for income from any source for the next few years. I could see the delivery center moving up to Everett and the sale of Boeing Field. If they really want to preserve the large aircraft production facilities as is, they could move all the 737 production from Renton up to Everett and sell of some very expensive real estate in Renton. Otherwise, they carve off some of the Everett real estate and mark time with 737 production until that naturally fades off.
 
iamlucky13
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Re: Updated: Boeing to Consolidate 787 Production in South Carolina

Fri Oct 02, 2020 3:01 pm

USAirKid wrote:
I'm not sure what else Washington State could have done. Boeing has had significant tax breaks ($100 million a year is what comes to mind, but don't quote me.)

Both the governor's office and union reached out to Boeing during the process and asked what they could do to keep all of the 787 assembly in Seattle, and there was no response.


I agree for the most part. Boeing wasn't looking for aid that would get overturned by the WTO.

They were consolidating to the line that provided them the lowest costs, including existing -10 facilities. I don't even think the union was as big of a factor as a lot of people seem to believe. It was no doubt a factor, but more so for the original decision to create the Charleston line in the first place. The union is of course, part of the reason for higher labor costs, but even without the union, Washington is still a higher cost place to live.

On the other hand, given that the relationship with the workforce is often contentious, I guarantee that every time the local population re-elects a political leader who is openly hostile to Boeing, especially the one who encouraged illegal actions against Boeing, those votes are received by Boeing's leadership as a message that there are simmering political risks.
 
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Re: Updated: Boeing to Consolidate 787 Production in South Carolina

Fri Oct 02, 2020 3:40 pm

HVN2HEL2LAX wrote:
Not necessarily proud, but I don't think the state of WA really cares about Boeing as much. Think about how many other large corporations call the Seattle metro area home. I mean Amazon owns most of downtown Seattle. I bet you won't even notice the difference during commute rush hour its so crazy there.

WA cares about tax revenue and no matter how you look at it Boeing and its employees create a lot of economic activity and thus a lot of taxes.

Boeing isn't a downtown Seattle business. The big sites at RNT and PAE are on the outskirts. BFI is closer in but not downtown, and has a bunch of Boeing activities but not the large work force associated with a manufacturing plant.

But WA really has no levers to push. If Boeing wants to move jobs out of WA state, there isn't much WA can do about it.

Noshow wrote:
This move will not relax the situation within the company and it will deteriorate the cost base of the Everett site. What Boeing needs Is smart diplomacy to bring back the different coasts and groups of employees not more confrontation. I hope the company top is aware of this. It must stop to fight unions. It must live with unionized workers and engineers. Motivated, job secure, higher productive staff can even be an advantage.
I am aware that unions have had their share in where we are right now.

Sorry, but most US corporations view their workforce as a liability and not as an asset, and Boeing is one such corporation.

MBA stooges have never built airplanes so they don't know the value of a well trained and motivated worker. They've already proven to their own satisfaction that they can make planes at a greenfield site in SC, and now it's all about the bottom line.

Honestly, folks, this was an inevitable move once 787 sales slowed down to the point they could close the PAE production line. COVID-19 just advanced the time line.

The study that they did says they have enough capacity at CHS to do all future 787s so there's no going back, IMO.

glbltrvlr wrote:
It's clear BA is going to be looking for income from any source for the next few years. I could see the delivery center moving up to Everett and the sale of Boeing Field. If they really want to preserve the large aircraft production facilities as is, they could move all the 737 production from Renton up to Everett and sell of some very expensive real estate in Renton. Otherwise, they carve off some of the Everett real estate and mark time with 737 production until that naturally fades off.

I don't see how such a move would make sense financially. RNT has three 737 production lines. That's a lot of very customized production equipment and fixtures. It'd cost a mint to move that, even if it could be done. I'm not sure retail space is as valuable as it was in the pre-COVID era. Most of the sources I've read (Seattle Times, Leeham News) suggest this is just a rumor among the work force and is not likely to happen.
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Re: Updated: Boeing to Consolidate 787 Production in South Carolina

Fri Oct 02, 2020 6:42 pm

glbltrvlr wrote:
It's clear BA is going to be looking for income from any source for the next few years. I could see the delivery center moving up to Everett and the sale of Boeing Field. If they really want to preserve the large aircraft production facilities as is, they could move all the 737 production from Renton up to Everett and sell of some very expensive real estate in Renton. Otherwise, they carve off some of the Everett real estate and mark time with 737 production until that naturally fades off.


Scott Hamilton surmised yesterday Boeing might move the 737 line to Everett
and sell the Renton Factory. I'm sure Boeing could get big bucks for that land :)
 
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Re: Updated: Boeing to Consolidate 787 Production in South Carolina

Fri Oct 02, 2020 6:52 pm

Sooner787 wrote:
Scott Hamilton surmised yesterday Boeing might move the 737 line to Everett and sell the Renton Factory. I'm sure Boeing could get big bucks for that land :)


If they were ever to do it, this would be the time with the least disruption.
 
ckfred
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Re: Updated: Boeing to Consolidate 787 Production in South Carolina

Fri Oct 02, 2020 6:55 pm

I remember being in Seattle, when the local media was covering Boeing looking for tax relief in exchange for adding assembly space in Everett for the 787. Boeing was looking at multiple locations for assembling the Dreamliner, and Washington State was determined to keep the 787 in the Seattle area, along with the 737, 747, and 777, as well as the 767.

There has to be some provision in the agreement between Boeing and state and local government about shutting down 787 assembly. Now, the tax relief period might have ended, since the 787 has been in production for 10 years or so. Still, I'm sure the Machinists union is not happy that the unionized assembly line is slate for closure, while the non-union line remains open.
 
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Re: Updated: Boeing to Consolidate 787 Production in South Carolina

Fri Oct 02, 2020 7:12 pm

USAirKid wrote:
PepeTheFrog wrote:
And Leeham is spot on again: https://leehamnews.com/2020/10/01/retro ... st-mortem/

How many wake-up calls do Washington stakeholders need before they wake up and find Boeing is gone?


frmrCapCadet wrote:
What may be for sure Boeing is unlikely ask for any tax breaks in the future. And if they do, the state will ask for a contract and signature.


Stitch wrote:
Boeing was given billions of dollars in relief from the Washington State "business environment". Boeing just didn't want to have to deal with the threat of a strike when business was booming (as had happened before) to force their hand at the negotiating table.

Stitch wrote:
Hate to go there but I don't think Washington politicians didn't valued Boeing enough and they are slowly losing a main driver of their economy


I'm not sure what else Washington State could have done. Boeing has had significant tax breaks ($100 million a year is what comes to mind, but don't quote me.)

Both the governor's office and union reached out to Boeing during the process and asked what they could do to keep all of the 787 assembly in Seattle, and there was no response.

In a speech today Governor Jay Inslee has gone the other way and states that he'll be talking to the legislature about rescinding some of the tax breaks.

Washington state has taken care of Boeing in the past and in the future. What else does Boeing want? The blood of the legislature and governor?


To the point of a previous poster, even Right to Work (which is politically unfathomable in Washington) would not be enough to keep the 787 line in Everett. They would literally have to disband the union. Not happening.

Boeing may be looking at the very long term here, asking itself if there are political risks with having a major part of its production in locales with massively different business, legal, and regulatory environments... Washington and South Carolina might as well be two different countries.
 
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Stitch
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Re: Updated: Boeing to Consolidate 787 Production in South Carolina

Fri Oct 02, 2020 7:13 pm

ckfred wrote:
There has to be some provision in the agreement between Boeing and state and local government about shutting down 787 assembly. Now, the tax relief period might have ended, since the 787 has been in production for 10 years or so.


The original B&O Tax reduction was to last until 2024, but WA state extended it to 2040 as part of the package they agreed to with Boeing to secure the 777X production (and with the extension, the B&O tax was tied directly to keeping the 777X in WA - if that left, then so did the tax savings).

Boeing asked WA state to repeal said tax reduction because it was ruled illegal by the WTO and the EU was threatening to levy tariffs in response. However, there are still multiple other tax credits Boeing receives from WA state, King and Snohomish Counties and the cities of Renton and Everett.

With 787 production ending in Everett, I assume that means Boeing's Fredrickson plant will see staff reductions as they produce the tailfins for Everett 787s. Fredrickson also produces tailfin assemblies for the 777 and 777X.

A Boeing facility in Salt Lake City builds the fins for Charleston 787s.
 
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Re: Updated: Boeing to Consolidate 787 Production in South Carolina

Fri Oct 02, 2020 7:20 pm

glbltrvlr wrote:
Sooner787 wrote:
Scott Hamilton surmised yesterday Boeing might move the 737 line to Everett and sell the Renton Factory. I'm sure Boeing could get big bucks for that land :)


If they were ever to do it, this would be the time with the least disruption.


This.

3 lines but 1 runs at the pace of a snail (military line) and the other 2 lines are essentially shut down right now. The latter are likely to stay that way for a long time given that there is the best part of 500 Max frames sitting about undelivered and I predict a large number of those that are not already white tails will soon become so. With no end to the CV19 travel restrictions/quarantine crap in sight, no airline is going to be needing new 737s for years and when Norwegian and other airlines inevitably go pop there will be a huge glut of nearly new frames dumped on the market that no-one will want.

If not for the P-8s, Boeing could shutter Renton for 5 years and I doubt any of their customers would care as things stand right now. It's the perfect time to move production elsewhere should they want to do it.
 
Noshow
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Re: Updated: Boeing to Consolidate 787 Production in South Carolina

Fri Oct 02, 2020 7:45 pm

That's true. But the whole factory is newly set up for the MAX. Moving it away now would be very costly and interrupt the MAX line another time. Now that the FAA might clear it soon.
Renton might be sold after the MAX and P-8 lines close one day. Given, maybe sooner than expected and hopefully with some NSA not far away.
 
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Re: Updated: Boeing to Consolidate 787 Production in South Carolina

Fri Oct 02, 2020 7:57 pm

Sooner787 wrote:
Scott Hamilton surmised yesterday Boeing might move the 737 line to Everett and sell the Renton Factory. I'm sure Boeing could get big bucks for that land :)

Hamilton / Leeham wrote:

Rumors within Boeing’s Everett plant suggest the 737 line might relocate from Renton to Everett. With production ticking along at low rates, a transfer could occur with relatively little disruption, in theory.

Ref: https://leehamnews.com/2020/10/01/boein ... more-34738

Seattle Times wrote:

Rumors among the workforce are rife that Boeing might shut down its 737 MAX plant in Renton and move production up to Everett. However, this would be very challenging logistically and would risk upsetting the planned recovery of the MAX once it is ungrounded.

Ref: https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... roduction/

Give that "surmise" means to give conjecture or make guesses, I guess this passes muster.

RobK wrote:
3 lines but 1 runs at the pace of a snail (military line) and the other 2 lines are essentially shut down right now. The latter are likely to stay that way for a long time given that there is the best part of 500 Max frames sitting about undelivered and I predict a large number of those that are not already white tails will soon become so. With no end to the CV19 travel restrictions/quarantine crap in sight, no airline is going to be needing new 737s for years and when Norwegian and other airlines inevitably go pop there will be a huge glut of nearly new frames dumped on the market that no-one will want.

If not for the P-8s, Boeing could shutter Renton for 5 years and I doubt any of their customers would care as things stand right now. It's the perfect time to move production elsewhere should they want to do it.

I doubt Boeing sees it the same way.

As you mention the P-8 line is specially certified by the military and setting up a new one would be costly. Moving the commercial line would also mean new FAA production certification not to mention the expense of moving all the tooling and fixtures. All of it would have to move completely before the site could be sold for commercial development, so it'd mean spending a lot of money up front before seeing any benefit. This isn't what you want to do to raise cash.

Personally I think it makes for interesting water cooler talk, not much likelihood of it happening.
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Noshow
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Re: Updated: Boeing to Consolidate 787 Production in South Carolina

Fri Oct 02, 2020 8:05 pm

Moving the MAX production site now would finally ruin the program because of the additional cost after all that extra cost from my point of view. This is why I consider it highly unlikely to happen now. And selling Renton's site now in at least what I would call a dip doesn't yield as much as when markets and businesses are back to normal.
 
cledaybuck
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Re: Updated: Boeing to Consolidate 787 Production in South Carolina

Fri Oct 02, 2020 8:10 pm

glbltrvlr wrote:
Sooner787 wrote:
Scott Hamilton surmised yesterday Boeing might move the 737 line to Everett and sell the Renton Factory. I'm sure Boeing could get big bucks for that land :)


If they were ever to do it, this would be the time with the least disruption.

The time to do it will be when they launch a new narrow body that replaces the 737.
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Noshow
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Re: Updated: Boeing to Consolidate 787 Production in South Carolina

Fri Oct 02, 2020 8:23 pm

The time will be right with entry into service of whatever follows the 737. So clearly not as early as NSA program launch.
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