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Cointrin330
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TWA at LHR Question

Mon Aug 24, 2020 11:38 am

Looking for the definitive list of TWA's destinations served from LHR, aircraft used, frequencies at the height of the airline's TATL network (1987-1989). As I recall it was:

JFK (2 x daily) 747 + a third flight added on an L1011 in cooperation with Gulf Air (was this LGW or LHR)?
LAX (1 x daily) 747
ORD (1 x daily) 747
BOS (1 x daily) L1011

I thought TWA also had PHL and IAD in the mix, both on the L1011, and that 767s were not used at LHR.

Lastly, where in T3 was the Ambassador's Club located?

If anyone has the details and could clarify, that would be great.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: TWA at LHR Question

Mon Aug 24, 2020 11:52 am

Here's the LHR page from Departed Flights effective 7/2001, if you can pick out any possible AA stuff. That was just a little less than three months after AA bought the assets.

http://www.departedflights.com/AA070201p70.html
 
sevenheavy
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Re: TWA at LHR Question

Mon Aug 24, 2020 12:45 pm

At peak (around summer ‘87) TWA operated these flights from LHR;

3 x JFK, TW701, TW703 (both B747) and TW709 (L-1011

There was also a 4th evening departure to JFK on GF metal with TW crews and service

1 x ORD, TW771 (B747, later L-1011-100)
1 x LAX, TW761 (Almost always one of TW’s B742’s as the B741’s struggled)
1 x PHL, TW755 (B762)
1 x BOS, TW753 (usually an L-1011)

There was also a B727-100 service to FRA which usually connected with one of the JFK flights. For a while during the gulf war they also operated to CDG as a combined service from BOS.

LGW had BWI, STL and PIT with one of them operating on to FRA on a B762
So long 701, it was nice knowing you.
 
FCOTSTW
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Re: TWA at LHR Question

Mon Aug 24, 2020 1:31 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
Looking for the definitive list of TWA's destinations served from LHR, aircraft used, frequencies at the height of the airline's TATL network (1987-1989). As I recall it was:

JFK (2 x daily) 747 + a third flight added on an L1011 in cooperation with Gulf Air (was this LGW or LHR)?
LAX (1 x daily) 747
ORD (1 x daily) 747
BOS (1 x daily) L1011

I thought TWA also had PHL and IAD in the mix, both on the L1011, and that 767s were not used at LHR.

Lastly, where in T3 was the Ambassador's Club located?

If anyone has the details and could clarify, that would be great.


From my recollection, at the zenith of operations TW flew JFK 3X daily (flight 701, 703, and ??), LAX (flight 761) once daily, BOS, (flight 753) once daily. They had ORD but they sold (1987?) to either AA or UA. In addition, they also had a LHR-PHL (767) and an LGW-IAD (L10) and an LGW-STL (747).
 
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millionsofmiles
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Re: TWA at LHR Question

Mon Aug 24, 2020 1:54 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
Here's the LHR page from Departed Flights effective 7/2001, if you can pick out any possible AA stuff. That was just a little less than three months after AA bought the assets.

http://www.departedflights.com/AA070201p70.html


The acquisition of TWA’s LHR authorities took place in 1991 with the operation turned over to AA, and the first AA flights to LHR, in July 1991.

The 2001 information from Departedflights is irrelevant to this discussion.

By the time of the AA acquisition of TWA in 2001, AA had already been operating TWA’s old authorities to LHR for ten years.
 
sevenheavy
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Re: TWA at LHR Question

Mon Aug 24, 2020 3:14 pm

FCOTSTW wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
Looking for the definitive list of TWA's destinations served from LHR, aircraft used, frequencies at the height of the airline's TATL network (1987-1989). As I recall it was:

JFK (2 x daily) 747 + a third flight added on an L1011 in cooperation with Gulf Air (was this LGW or LHR)?
LAX (1 x daily) 747
ORD (1 x daily) 747
BOS (1 x daily) L1011

I thought TWA also had PHL and IAD in the mix, both on the L1011, and that 767s were not used at LHR.

Lastly, where in T3 was the Ambassador's Club located?

If anyone has the details and could clarify, that would be great.


From my recollection, at the zenith of operations TW flew JFK 3X daily (flight 701, 703, and ??), LAX (flight 761) once daily, BOS, (flight 753) once daily. They had ORD but they sold (1987?) to either AA or UA. In addition, they also had a LHR-PHL (767) and an LGW-IAD (L10) and an LGW-STL (747).


TW709 was the other JFK service. The first departure out in the morning at around 10:00

IAD was never served (it was from CDG), it was always BWI.
So long 701, it was nice knowing you.
 
TUGMASTER
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Re: TWA at LHR Question

Mon Aug 24, 2020 3:24 pm

I guess Sevenheavy is ex TW/AA Air Mech,LHR based....iirc,
Think the L1011’s that headed to JFK on the late departure were the US reg’d GF ships...
And iirc, one of the GF006/008 down to AUH or BAH was operated by a TW Tristar with GF crew etc...
Memory a bit foggy...
 
MIAFLLPBIFlyer
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Re: TWA at LHR Question

Mon Aug 24, 2020 4:18 pm

TUGMASTER wrote:
I guess Sevenheavy is ex TW/AA Air Mech,LHR based....iirc,
Think the L1011’s that headed to JFK on the late departure were the US reg’d GF ships...
And iirc, one of the GF006/008 down to AUH or BAH was operated by a TW Tristar with GF crew etc...
Memory a bit foggy...


IIRC the TW-GF were usually one airline's metal and the other's crew. L1011 always.

Also TW was going to work on doing something similar with AI to route DEL-LHR-ORD on 747's before the US gov't said no and the ultimate sale of LHR-ORD to AA.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: TWA at LHR Question

Mon Aug 24, 2020 5:09 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
Here's the LHR page from Departed Flights effective 7/2001, if you can pick out any possible AA stuff. That was just a little less than three months after AA bought the assets.

http://www.departedflights.com/AA070201p70.html


Irrelevant to this discussion. By July 2001, all TWA had left in London was STL-LGW. TWA ended operations in December 2001. Departed flights isn't a great source for this stuff, unless you want a snapshot in time.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: TWA at LHR Question

Mon Aug 24, 2020 5:10 pm

FCOTSTW wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
Looking for the definitive list of TWA's destinations served from LHR, aircraft used, frequencies at the height of the airline's TATL network (1987-1989). As I recall it was:

JFK (2 x daily) 747 + a third flight added on an L1011 in cooperation with Gulf Air (was this LGW or LHR)?
LAX (1 x daily) 747
ORD (1 x daily) 747
BOS (1 x daily) L1011

I thought TWA also had PHL and IAD in the mix, both on the L1011, and that 767s were not used at LHR.

Lastly, where in T3 was the Ambassador's Club located?

If anyone has the details and could clarify, that would be great.


From my recollection, at the zenith of operations TW flew JFK 3X daily (flight 701, 703, and ??), LAX (flight 761) once daily, BOS, (flight 753) once daily. They had ORD but they sold (1987?) to either AA or UA. In addition, they also had a LHR-PHL (767) and an LGW-IAD (L10) and an LGW-STL (747).


When TWA sold its LHR slots in 1991 to AA, I believe the ORD-LHR route was included but in a separate transaction.
Last edited by Cointrin330 on Mon Aug 24, 2020 5:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
sevenheavy
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Re: TWA at LHR Question

Mon Aug 24, 2020 5:25 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
FCOTSTW wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
Looking for the definitive list of TWA's destinations served from LHR, aircraft used, frequencies at the height of the airline's TATL network (1987-1989). As I recall it was:

JFK (2 x daily) 747 + a third flight added on an L1011 in cooperation with Gulf Air (was this LGW or LHR)?
LAX (1 x daily) 747
ORD (1 x daily) 747
BOS (1 x daily) L1011

I thought TWA also had PHL and IAD in the mix, both on the L1011, and that 767s were not used at LHR.

Lastly, where in T3 was the Ambassador's Club located?

If anyone has the details and could clarify, that would be great.


From my recollection, at the zenith of operations TW flew JFK 3X daily (flight 701, 703, and ??), LAX (flight 761) once daily, BOS, (flight 753) once daily. They had ORD but they sold (1987?) to either AA or UA. In addition, they also had a LHR-PHL (767) and an LGW-IAD (L10) and an LGW-STL (747).


When TWA sold its LHR slots in 1991 to AA, I believe the ORD-LHR route was included. TWA operated ORD-LHR until 1991.


The ORD route was actually sold to AA for (I think) $50m prior to the JFK/BOS/LAX sale. It was for a short time operated from LGW by AA

AA also bought PA’s MIA route, and were able to restart a long dormant EWR route.

PHL transferred to TWs LGW operation with the PIT/BWI/STL routes until eventually being sold to US.

Reference the ambassadors club, I believe it was pretty much where AAs admirals club is now which is just outside of the departure lounge at the old ‘gate 12’ cluster of lounges. The entrance and orientation/size has changed many times over the years
So long 701, it was nice knowing you.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: TWA at LHR Question

Mon Aug 24, 2020 5:28 pm

sevenheavy wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
FCOTSTW wrote:

From my recollection, at the zenith of operations TW flew JFK 3X daily (flight 701, 703, and ??), LAX (flight 761) once daily, BOS, (flight 753) once daily. They had ORD but they sold (1987?) to either AA or UA. In addition, they also had a LHR-PHL (767) and an LGW-IAD (L10) and an LGW-STL (747).


When TWA sold its LHR slots in 1991 to AA, I believe the ORD-LHR route was included. TWA operated ORD-LHR until 1991.


The ORD route was actually sold to AA for (I think) $50m prior to the JFK/BOS/LAX sale. It was for a short time operated from LGW by AA

AA also bought PA’s MIA route, and were able to restart a long dormant EWR route.

PHL transferred to TWs LGW operation with the PIT/BWI/STL routes until eventually being sold to US.

Reference the ambassadors club, I believe it was pretty much where AAs admirals club is now which is just outside of the departure lounge at the old ‘gate 12’ cluster of lounges. The entrance and orientation/size has changed many times over the years


Correct, yes, the ORD-LHR route wasn't part of the $445 million deal and was separate. TWA sold it off in a separate transaction.
 
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OzarkD9S
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Re: TWA at LHR Question

Mon Aug 24, 2020 5:28 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:

When TWA sold its LHR slots in 1991 to AA, I believe the ORD-LHR route was included. TWA operated ORD-LHR until 1991.


ORD-LON was the first LON route TWA sold to American. At the time AA would have had to operate at LGW. Before that was approved, TWA sold all the LON authorities to AA, including STL/PHL/BWI-LGW. The DOJ did not approve STL/PHL/BWI but approved LHR-JFK/BOS/LAX. ORD was included when that route sale was approved. BWI/PHL were later sold to US and operated ex-LGW. STL stayed with TW until the end.

Well someone else just beat me to it!
Next up: STL DEN PSP DEN STL
 
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STT757
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Re: TWA at LHR Question

Mon Aug 24, 2020 5:47 pm

sevenheavy wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
FCOTSTW wrote:

From my recollection, at the zenith of operations TW flew JFK 3X daily (flight 701, 703, and ??), LAX (flight 761) once daily, BOS, (flight 753) once daily. They had ORD but they sold (1987?) to either AA or UA. In addition, they also had a LHR-PHL (767) and an LGW-IAD (L10) and an LGW-STL (747).


When TWA sold its LHR slots in 1991 to AA, I believe the ORD-LHR route was included. TWA operated ORD-LHR until 1991.


The ORD route was actually sold to AA for (I think) $50m prior to the JFK/BOS/LAX sale. It was for a short time operated from LGW by AA

AA also bought PA’s MIA route, and were able to restart a long dormant EWR route.

PHL transferred to TWs LGW operation with the PIT/BWI/STL routes until eventually being sold to US.

Reference the ambassadors club, I believe it was pretty much where AAs admirals club is now which is just outside of the departure lounge at the old ‘gate 12’ cluster of lounges. The entrance and orientation/size has changed many times over the years


AA purchased their MIA-London rights from Continental in 1990, it happened the same time Eastern sold AA their Latin America rights. Eastern had launched MIA-London (Gatwick) in 1985, a year later after being acquired by Texas Air the MIA-London route transferred to Continental who operated it with a 747 until the sale to AA in 1990. AA having rights to Heathrow via their purchased rights from Pan Am were able to move the London destination from Gatwick to Heathrow for service to Miami.

Same thing happened with EWR. The rights AA had purchased to operate New York to London allowed them to operate any NY airport to any London airport. They added EWR to their New York portfolio from London as it all fell under the same rights, the Heathrow slots they purchased from Pan Am allowed them to serve Heathrow airport.

Continental had rights to fly New York to London via their acquisition of PeoplExpress. However not being a party to Bermuda II they did not have access to Heathrow and thus operated EWR-LGW, technically they could have flown JFK-LGW too if they saw fit.

United prior during their bankruptcy sold their New York-London rights to Delta, who never had any. However Bermuda II was still in effect and thus had to fly JFK-LGW. When CO and UA merged UA once again regained the rights to fly New York to London via Continental. However by this time Bermuda II was gone and Continental was already flying EWR-Heathrow.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
Cointrin330
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Re: TWA at LHR Question

Mon Aug 24, 2020 5:56 pm

STT757 wrote:
sevenheavy wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:

When TWA sold its LHR slots in 1991 to AA, I believe the ORD-LHR route was included. TWA operated ORD-LHR until 1991.


The ORD route was actually sold to AA for (I think) $50m prior to the JFK/BOS/LAX sale. It was for a short time operated from LGW by AA

AA also bought PA’s MIA route, and were able to restart a long dormant EWR route.

PHL transferred to TWs LGW operation with the PIT/BWI/STL routes until eventually being sold to US.

Reference the ambassadors club, I believe it was pretty much where AAs admirals club is now which is just outside of the departure lounge at the old ‘gate 12’ cluster of lounges. The entrance and orientation/size has changed many times over the years


AA purchased their MIA-London rights from Continental in 1990, it happened the same time Eastern sold AA their Latin America rights. Eastern had launched MIA-London (Gatwick) in 1985, a year later after being acquired by Texas Air the MIA-London route transferred to Continental who operated it with a 747 until the sale to AA in 1990. AA having rights to Heathrow via their purchased rights from Pan Am were able to move the London destination from Gatwick to Heathrow for service to Miami.

Same thing happened with EWR. The rights AA had purchased to operate New York to London allowed them to operate any NY airport to any London airport. They added EWR to their New York portfolio from London as it all fell under the same rights, the Heathrow slots they purchased from Pan Am allowed them to serve Heathrow airport.

Continental had rights to fly New York to London via their acquisition of PeoplExpress. However not being a party to Bermuda II they did not have access to Heathrow and thus operated EWR-LGW, technically they could have flown JFK-LGW too if they saw fit.

United prior during their bankruptcy sold their New York-London rights to Delta, who never had any. However Bermuda II was still in effect and thus had to fly JFK-LGW. When CO and UA merged UA once again regained the rights to fly New York to London via Continental. However by this time Bermuda II was gone and Continental was already flying EWR-Heathrow.


Thanks. This is great. Just a minor connection, AA got their LHR rights by purchasing TWA's LHR rights, not Pan Am's. Pam Am sold its LHR rights to UA.
 
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STT757
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Re: TWA at LHR Question

Mon Aug 24, 2020 6:00 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
STT757 wrote:
sevenheavy wrote:

The ORD route was actually sold to AA for (I think) $50m prior to the JFK/BOS/LAX sale. It was for a short time operated from LGW by AA

AA also bought PA’s MIA route, and were able to restart a long dormant EWR route.

PHL transferred to TWs LGW operation with the PIT/BWI/STL routes until eventually being sold to US.

Reference the ambassadors club, I believe it was pretty much where AAs admirals club is now which is just outside of the departure lounge at the old ‘gate 12’ cluster of lounges. The entrance and orientation/size has changed many times over the years


AA purchased their MIA-London rights from Continental in 1990, it happened the same time Eastern sold AA their Latin America rights. Eastern had launched MIA-London (Gatwick) in 1985, a year later after being acquired by Texas Air the MIA-London route transferred to Continental who operated it with a 747 until the sale to AA in 1990. AA having rights to Heathrow via their purchased rights from Pan Am were able to move the London destination from Gatwick to Heathrow for service to Miami.

Same thing happened with EWR. The rights AA had purchased to operate New York to London allowed them to operate any NY airport to any London airport. They added EWR to their New York portfolio from London as it all fell under the same rights, the Heathrow slots they purchased from Pan Am allowed them to serve Heathrow airport.

Continental had rights to fly New York to London via their acquisition of PeoplExpress. However not being a party to Bermuda II they did not have access to Heathrow and thus operated EWR-LGW, technically they could have flown JFK-LGW too if they saw fit.

United prior during their bankruptcy sold their New York-London rights to Delta, who never had any. However Bermuda II was still in effect and thus had to fly JFK-LGW. When CO and UA merged UA once again regained the rights to fly New York to London via Continental. However by this time Bermuda II was gone and Continental was already flying EWR-Heathrow.


Thanks. This is great. Just a minor connection, AA got their LHR rights by purchasing TWA's LHR rights, not Pan Am's. Pam Am sold its LHR rights to UA.


Sorry, got mixed up.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/erussell1984/14985660191

Even though United eventually purchased Pan Am's Latin America operations, in CH-7, Delta acquired Pan Am's MIA-London rights, operating it as MCO-MIA-LGW with an L1011-500, and also Detroit-London rights which eventually ended up with NWA. Both went to Gatwick as Delta was not a party to Bermuda II.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
MIAFLLPBIFlyer
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Re: TWA at LHR Question

Mon Aug 24, 2020 6:09 pm

UA had wanted to fly MIA-LHR and in fact did for a month or two under temporary authority (when UA took over PA's LHR ops they flew MIA for a short while to ensure continues service from MIA to LHR until AA started- when AA began LHR ops a month or two later is when UA had to drop the route), but the US was unable to have two carriers flying LHR-MIA. Instead of being forced to open LGW for a single daily flight to MIA, UA gave up on that route. That's how it was around for DL to take. In fact UA had very clearly wanted it, their is even a passage in the book Hard Landing about Stephen Wolf's desire to secure MIA-LHR from PA.
 
WA707atMSP
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Re: TWA at LHR Question

Mon Aug 24, 2020 6:19 pm

Prior to Bermuda II, TWA did have IAD-LHR authority, as well as SFO / DTW - LHR nonstop rights.

During phase I of the PA / TWA route swap in 1974, TWA agreed to suspend DTW-LHR nonstops (making PA the sole carrier from the US on DTW-LHR) in exchange for PA suspending flights to Ireland.

In the much bigger Phase II of the PA / TWA route swap, TWA relinquished IAD-LHR, in exchange for PA suspending ORD / PHL / LAX - LHR.

TWA lost their SFO-LHR rights once Bermuda II was signed. As part of Bermuda II, Pan Am was given a choice between keeping their BOS-LHR nonstops, or suspending BOS-LHR and resuming LAX-LHR. PA chose to suspend BOS-LHR and resume LAX-LHR.
 
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OzarkD9S
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Re: TWA at LHR Question

Mon Aug 24, 2020 6:32 pm

WA707atMSP wrote:

Prior to Bermuda II, TWA did have IAD-LHR authority, as well as SFO / DTW - LHR nonstop rights.

During phase I of the PA / TWA route swap in 1974, TWA agreed to suspend DTW-LHR nonstops (making PA the sole carrier from the US on DTW-LHR) in exchange for PA suspending flights to Ireland.

In the much bigger Phase II of the PA / TWA route swap, TWA relinquished IAD-LHR, in exchange for PA suspending ORD / PHL / LAX - LHR.

TWA lost their SFO-LHR rights once Bermuda II was signed. As part of Bermuda II, Pan Am was given a choice between keeping their BOS-LHR nonstops, or suspending BOS-LHR and resuming LAX-LHR. PA chose to suspend BOS-LHR and resume LAX-LHR.


Add to that PA dropped Paris as well, which they returned to when they purchased National.
Next up: STL DEN PSP DEN STL
 
jfk777
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Re: TWA at LHR Question

Mon Aug 24, 2020 7:15 pm

sevenheavy wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
FCOTSTW wrote:

From my recollection, at the zenith of operations TW flew JFK 3X daily (flight 701, 703, and ??), LAX (flight 761) once daily, BOS, (flight 753) once daily. They had ORD but they sold (1987?) to either AA or UA. In addition, they also had a LHR-PHL (767) and an LGW-IAD (L10) and an LGW-STL (747).


When TWA sold its LHR slots in 1991 to AA, I believe the ORD-LHR route was included. TWA operated ORD-LHR until 1991.


The ORD route was actually sold to AA for (I think) $50m prior to the JFK/BOS/LAX sale. It was for a short time operated from LGW by AA

AA also bought PA’s MIA route, and were able to restart a long dormant EWR route.

PHL transferred to TWs LGW operation with the PIT/BWI/STL routes until eventually being sold to US.

Reference the ambassadors club, I believe it was pretty much where AAs admirals club is now which is just outside of the departure lounge at the old ‘gate 12’ cluster of lounges. The entrance and orientation/size has changed many times over the years


AA Never purchased any LHR routes from PA, they purchased TWA LHR routes. AA, being one of two US airlines designated for Heathrow, was able to by default start Miami to LHR flights since UA didn't get that in their Pan AM LHr package. PA still had a hub in MIA and flew their own MIA to LGW flight. AA has certainly made the most of their LHR routes and has a huge JV with BA.
 
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STT757
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Re: TWA at LHR Question

Mon Aug 24, 2020 8:16 pm

AA purchased their Miami-London rights from Continental as part of the deal for EA’s MIA-Latin America

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct- ... story.html

The Eastern rights to Latin America from NY, Houston, Los Angeles went to Continental.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
khowaga
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Re: TWA at LHR Question

Mon Aug 24, 2020 10:22 pm

MIAFLLPBIFlyer wrote:
TUGMASTER wrote:
I guess Sevenheavy is ex TW/AA Air Mech,LHR based....iirc,
Think the L1011’s that headed to JFK on the late departure were the US reg’d GF ships...
And iirc, one of the GF006/008 down to AUH or BAH was operated by a TW Tristar with GF crew etc...
Memory a bit foggy...


IIRC the TW-GF were usually one airline's metal and the other's crew. L1011 always.

Also TW was going to work on doing something similar with AI to route DEL-LHR-ORD on 747's before the US gov't said no and the ultimate sale of LHR-ORD to AA.

I remember this. The daytime JFK-LHR flight was GF metal with TW crew to LHR, then GF crew onward to AUH or BAH.

I also have a very fuzzy memory that the proposed AI codeshare was weirdly nebulous - like, passengers would have had to disembark in LHR even if they were going all the way to DEL, or something. (I recall the phrase “nonexistent through service” being used in the rejection.)
 
Cointrin330
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Re: TWA at LHR Question

Tue Aug 25, 2020 1:09 am

Did TWA also briefly operate a JFK-LGW service or am I just imaging that? I travelled often on TWA 700/TWA 701 as a teenager to/from LHR, and thought there was a LGW service for a short time, but I think I am wrong on this. I as 15 or 16 at the time, so not sure if that was accurate.
 
Max Q
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Re: TWA at LHR Question

Tue Aug 25, 2020 2:16 am

sevenheavy wrote:
At peak (around summer ‘87) TWA operated these flights from LHR;

3 x JFK, TW701, TW703 (both B747) and TW709 (L-1011

There was also a 4th evening departure to JFK on GF metal with TW crews and service

1 x ORD, TW771 (B747, later L-1011-100)
1 x LAX, TW761 (Almost always one of TW’s B742’s as the B741’s struggled)
1 x PHL, TW755 (B762)
1 x BOS, TW753 (usually an L-1011)

There was also a B727-100 service to FRA which usually connected with one of the JFK flights. For a while during the gulf war they also operated to CDG as a combined service from BOS.

LGW had BWI, STL and PIT with one of them operating on to FRA on a B762



Did TWA purchase any 747-200’s new from Boeing or did they obtain them used from another operator?


And did they ever use their SP’s on LHR-LAX ?
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


GGg
 
superjeff
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Re: TWA at LHR Question

Tue Aug 25, 2020 2:39 am

Max Q wrote:
sevenheavy wrote:
At peak (around summer ‘87) TWA operated these flights from LHR;

3 x JFK, TW701, TW703 (both B747) and TW709 (L-1011

There was also a 4th evening departure to JFK on GF metal with TW crews and service

1 x ORD, TW771 (B747, later L-1011-100)
1 x LAX, TW761 (Almost always one of TW’s B742’s as the B741’s struggled)
1 x PHL, TW755 (B762)
1 x BOS, TW753 (usually an L-1011)

There was also a B727-100 service to FRA which usually connected with one of the JFK flights. For a while during the gulf war they also operated to CDG as a combined service from BOS.

LGW had BWI, STL and PIT with one of them operating on to FRA on a B762



Did TWA purchase any 747-200’s new from Boeing or did they obtain them used from another operator?


And did they ever use their SP’s on LHR-LAX ?


I don't know for certain, but I'm about 95% sure that they never bought any new 747-200's.
 
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aeromoe
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Re: TWA at LHR Question

Tue Aug 25, 2020 2:58 am

superjeff wrote:
I don't know for certain, but I'm about 95% sure that they never bought any new 747-200's.


They didn't buy new -200s from Boeing. Now you know for certain and can be 100% sure. These were ex-TAP 747-282Bs (2), ex-Swissair 747-257Bs (2), an ex-Olympic 747-284B (1), an ex-America West/KLM -206B (1), and an ex-Qantas 747-238B (1). Keep in mind, a couple of these airframes didn't go from the original customer to TWA...they had interim lives before joining TWA.
Last edited by aeromoe on Tue Aug 25, 2020 3:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: TWA at LHR Question

Tue Aug 25, 2020 3:03 am

Cointrin330 wrote:
Did TWA also briefly operate a JFK-LGW service or am I just imaging that? I travelled often on TWA 700/TWA 701 as a teenager to/from LHR, and thought there was a LGW service for a short time, but I think I am wrong on this. I as 15 or 16 at the time, so not sure if that was accurate.


I have no idea of your memories or knowledge of TWA ops. You're not thinking of the STL-LGW service with 767-200(ER) are you? This was one of the very first ETOPS services flown.
Since 60s: AA AC AS BA BD BF BN BR(85) BY B6 CO CZ(16) DG DL EA EI EN FI FL FT F9 HA HP ICX JI JQ J7 KE KL KS LH MC NW OC OO OZ(87) OZ(88) PA PI PN(97) PT QF QQ RM RO RV(99) RV(16) RW SK SM SQ S4 TI TS TW UA UK US UZ VS VX WA WN WS W7 XV YV YX(13) ZZ 9K
 
crownvic
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Re: TWA at LHR Question

Tue Aug 25, 2020 3:45 am

For the record, prior to the 767 introduction, TWA operated PHL-LHR with L-1011s. Prior to the L-1011s, this route was flown by some of the last 707-331 (water wagon - turbo jets) in the fleet. I remember asking a TWA ops person way back when why a turbo-jet 707 was still on such a long route (vs a fan jet) and the answer was interesting. He explained that even though the -331 burned fuel than the -331B/C, on long routes, once at cruise, the fuel burn difference was negligible. TWA was using many of the older -331s on long routes before they were retired. They were just too inefficient on short routes compared to -331B/Cs
 
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Kiwings
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Re: TWA at LHR Question

Tue Aug 25, 2020 4:11 am

And did they ever use their SP’s on LHR-LAX ?

No, that was a 747 , from memory in the mid 80's the SP did a LAX BOS CDG route.
 
sevenheavy
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Re: TWA at LHR Question

Tue Aug 25, 2020 5:26 am

WA707atMSP wrote:
Prior to Bermuda II, TWA did have IAD-LHR authority, as well as SFO / DTW - LHR nonstop rights.

During phase I of the PA / TWA route swap in 1974, TWA agreed to suspend DTW-LHR nonstops (making PA the sole carrier from the US on DTW-LHR) in exchange for PA suspending flights to Ireland.

In the much bigger Phase II of the PA / TWA route swap, TWA relinquished IAD-LHR, in exchange for PA suspending ORD / PHL / LAX - LHR.

TWA lost their SFO-LHR rights once Bermuda II was signed. As part of Bermuda II, Pan Am was given a choice between keeping their BOS-LHR nonstops, or suspending BOS-LHR and resuming LAX-LHR. PA chose to suspend BOS-LHR and resume LAX-LHR.


You’re right on IAD. I should have clarified that I was talking post Bermuda II. thanks for the info.

TWA also operated a significant number of charters into LHR prior to Bermuda II. 4 or 5 a day in summer wasn’t uncommon. Almost always on B707s
So long 701, it was nice knowing you.
 
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Re: TWA at LHR Question

Tue Aug 25, 2020 5:29 am

Max Q wrote:
sevenheavy wrote:
At peak (around summer ‘87) TWA operated these flights from LHR;

3 x JFK, TW701, TW703 (both B747) and TW709 (L-1011

There was also a 4th evening departure to JFK on GF metal with TW crews and service

1 x ORD, TW771 (B747, later L-1011-100)
1 x LAX, TW761 (Almost always one of TW’s B742’s as the B741’s struggled)
1 x PHL, TW755 (B762)
1 x BOS, TW753 (usually an L-1011)

There was also a B727-100 service to FRA which usually connected with one of the JFK flights. For a while during the gulf war they also operated to CDG as a combined service from BOS.

LGW had BWI, STL and PIT with one of them operating on to FRA on a B762



Did TWA purchase any 747-200’s new from Boeing or did they obtain them used from another operator?


And did they ever use their SP’s on LHR-LAX ?


TWA had no real use for the SP’s as they didn’t get the routes they were ordered for and thus they found their way onto lots of routes that didn’t justify their capabilities at various times

They did operate TW760/761, generally only in winter when the loads were lighter but they also operated from BOS to LHR/CDG/FCO and on some of the JFK routes to the Middle East
So long 701, it was nice knowing you.
 
sevenheavy
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Re: TWA at LHR Question

Tue Aug 25, 2020 5:31 am

Cointrin330 wrote:
Did TWA also briefly operate a JFK-LGW service or am I just imaging that? I travelled often on TWA 700/TWA 701 as a teenager to/from LHR, and thought there was a LGW service for a short time, but I think I am wrong on this. I as 15 or 16 at the time, so not sure if that was accurate.


You’re right, they did operate JFK-LGW for a while in the early eighties. Didn’t last long though
So long 701, it was nice knowing you.
 
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adambrau
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Re: TWA at LHR Question

Tue Aug 25, 2020 5:33 am

FCOTSTW wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
Looking for the definitive list of TWA's destinations served from LHR, aircraft used, frequencies at the height of the airline's TATL network (1985-1987). As I recall it was:

JFK (2 x daily) 747 + a third flight added on an L1011 in cooperation with Gulf Air (was this LGW or LHR)?
LAX (1 x daily) 747
ORD (1 x daily) 747
BOS (1 x daily) L1011

I thought TWA also had PHL and IAD in the mix, both on the L1011, and that 767s were not used at LHR.

Lastly, where in T3 was the Ambassador's Club located?

If anyone has the details and could clarify, that would be great.


From my recollection, at the zenith of operations TW flew JFK 3X daily (flight 701, 703, and ??), LAX (flight 761) once daily, BOS, (flight 753) once daily. They had ORD but they sold (1987?) to either AA or UA. In addition, they also had a LHR-PHL (767) and an LGW-IAD (L10) and an LGW-STL (747).


Just a slight correction as per my memory during my two years based in London 1985-1987:

JFK-LHR was TW700/702. Eastbound was odd-numbered.

ORD-LHR was TW770 and eastbound TW771.

LAX and BOS I recall except flight numbers.

My dad flew PHL-LHR around same time on a 767 variant.

STL was always to LGW.

PA was always dominant over TW at LHR and those flights I better remember. My favorite PA flight was PA 102 JFK-LHR-HAM-TXL. I always preferred PA crews to TW and sadly it's been years since either options are available. RIP TW and PA.
JFK Friendly
 
Max Q
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Re: TWA at LHR Question

Tue Aug 25, 2020 7:24 am

sevenheavy wrote:
Max Q wrote:
sevenheavy wrote:
At peak (around summer ‘87) TWA operated these flights from LHR;

3 x JFK, TW701, TW703 (both B747) and TW709 (L-1011

There was also a 4th evening departure to JFK on GF metal with TW crews and service

1 x ORD, TW771 (B747, later L-1011-100)
1 x LAX, TW761 (Almost always one of TW’s B742’s as the B741’s struggled)
1 x PHL, TW755 (B762)
1 x BOS, TW753 (usually an L-1011)

There was also a B727-100 service to FRA which usually connected with one of the JFK flights. For a while during the gulf war they also operated to CDG as a combined service from BOS.

LGW had BWI, STL and PIT with one of them operating on to FRA on a B762



Did TWA purchase any 747-200’s new from Boeing or did they obtain them used from another operator?


And did they ever use their SP’s on LHR-LAX ?


TWA had no real use for the SP’s as they didn’t get the routes they were ordered for and thus they found their way onto lots of routes that didn’t justify their capabilities at various times

They did operate TW760/761, generally only in winter when the loads were lighter but they also operated from BOS to LHR/CDG/FCO and on some of the JFK routes to the Middle East



I’ve forgotten what routes their SP’s were purchased for ?


I think they bought three new models?
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


GGg
 
sevenheavy
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Re: TWA at LHR Question

Tue Aug 25, 2020 8:19 am

Max Q wrote:
sevenheavy wrote:
Max Q wrote:


Did TWA purchase any 747-200’s new from Boeing or did they obtain them used from another operator?


And did they ever use their SP’s on LHR-LAX ?


TWA had no real use for the SP’s as they didn’t get the routes they were ordered for and thus they found their way onto lots of routes that didn’t justify their capabilities at various times

They did operate TW760/761, generally only in winter when the loads were lighter but they also operated from BOS to LHR/CDG/FCO and on some of the JFK routes to the Middle East



I’ve forgotten what routes their SP’s were purchased for ?


I think they bought three new models?


It was three, all delivered in 1980. They were originally intended for non stop routes from JFK to Saudi Arabia and a couple of other Middle East cities but the routes never materialised.

These aircraft returned to LHR in the early 90’s - TWA sold two of them to AA who actually used them on JFK-LHR routes when they took over from TWA!
So long 701, it was nice knowing you.
 
Max Q
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Re: TWA at LHR Question

Tue Aug 25, 2020 8:40 am

sevenheavy wrote:
Max Q wrote:
sevenheavy wrote:

TWA had no real use for the SP’s as they didn’t get the routes they were ordered for and thus they found their way onto lots of routes that didn’t justify their capabilities at various times

They did operate TW760/761, generally only in winter when the loads were lighter but they also operated from BOS to LHR/CDG/FCO and on some of the JFK routes to the Middle East



I’ve forgotten what routes their SP’s were purchased for ?


I think they bought three new models?


It was three, all delivered in 1980. They were originally intended for non stop routes from JFK to Saudi Arabia and a couple of other Middle East cities but the routes never materialised.

These aircraft returned to LHR in the early 90’s - TWA sold two of them to AA who actually used them on JFK-LHR routes when they took over from TWA!




Interesting,

Thanks for the information
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


GGg
 
Cointrin330
Topic Author
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Re: TWA at LHR Question

Tue Aug 25, 2020 11:26 am

adambrau wrote:
FCOTSTW wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
Looking for the definitive list of TWA's destinations served from LHR, aircraft used, frequencies at the height of the airline's TATL network (1985-1987). As I recall it was:

JFK (2 x daily) 747 + a third flight added on an L1011 in cooperation with Gulf Air (was this LGW or LHR)?
LAX (1 x daily) 747
ORD (1 x daily) 747
BOS (1 x daily) L1011

I thought TWA also had PHL and IAD in the mix, both on the L1011, and that 767s were not used at LHR.

Lastly, where in T3 was the Ambassador's Club located?

If anyone has the details and could clarify, that would be great.


From my recollection, at the zenith of operations TW flew JFK 3X daily (flight 701, 703, and ??), LAX (flight 761) once daily, BOS, (flight 753) once daily. They had ORD but they sold (1987?) to either AA or UA. In addition, they also had a LHR-PHL (767) and an LGW-IAD (L10) and an LGW-STL (747).


Just a slight correction as per my memory during my two years based in London 1985-1987:

JFK-LHR was TW700/702. Eastbound was odd-numbered.

ORD-LHR was TW770 and eastbound TW771.

LAX and BOS I recall except flight numbers.

My dad flew PHL-LHR around same time on a 767 variant.

STL was always to LGW.

PA was always dominant over TW at LHR and those flights I better remember. My favorite PA flight was PA 102 JFK-LHR-HAM-TXL. I always preferred PA crews to TW and sadly it's been years since either options are available. RIP TW and PA.


A few corrections. The first evening departure to LHR on TWA was TWA 708. The second was TWA 700. There was only one 767 type in the TWA fleet at the time the airline served LHR and that was the -200ER. TWA did not acquire 763s until the mid to late 1990s. Pan Am was larger than TWA at LHR for the most part. From what I recall (I was a teenager in the 1980s), TWA had overall better in flight service than Pan Am and maintained the cabin interiors a bit better.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: TWA at LHR Question

Tue Aug 25, 2020 11:26 am

sevenheavy wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
Did TWA also briefly operate a JFK-LGW service or am I just imaging that? I travelled often on TWA 700/TWA 701 as a teenager to/from LHR, and thought there was a LGW service for a short time, but I think I am wrong on this. I as 15 or 16 at the time, so not sure if that was accurate.


You’re right, they did operate JFK-LGW for a while in the early eighties. Didn’t last long though


Thank you very much. Agreed, yes, I recall it was a very short lived service.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: TWA at LHR Question

Tue Aug 25, 2020 11:30 am

Kiwings wrote:
And did they ever use their SP’s on LHR-LAX ?

No, that was a 747 , from memory in the mid 80's the SP did a LAX BOS CDG route.


The SP twins were gone by 1985 and began operations for AA in 1986 for its DFW-NRT services. TWA bought the SP in 1980 because it anticipated being awarded route authority between JFK and NRT and the stage length required 2 frames. TWA was not awarded the NRT routes and kept the SP's for a time, using them on a number of routes throughout the system. They did operate to KWI and BOM, and were also at CDG, MXP, and FCO at times, but were taken out of service and stored before being sold to AA. American shifted the 747SP to JFK in 1991 to operate the two evening overnight flights to LHR when it first started the JFK-LHR routes it bought from TWA (AA began ops in July 1991).
 
Cointrin330
Topic Author
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Re: TWA at LHR Question

Tue Aug 25, 2020 11:34 am

sevenheavy wrote:
Max Q wrote:
sevenheavy wrote:

TWA had no real use for the SP’s as they didn’t get the routes they were ordered for and thus they found their way onto lots of routes that didn’t justify their capabilities at various times

They did operate TW760/761, generally only in winter when the loads were lighter but they also operated from BOS to LHR/CDG/FCO and on some of the JFK routes to the Middle East



I’ve forgotten what routes their SP’s were purchased for ?


I think they bought three new models?


It was three, all delivered in 1980. They were originally intended for non stop routes from JFK to Saudi Arabia and a couple of other Middle East cities but the routes never materialised.

These aircraft returned to LHR in the early 90’s - TWA sold two of them to AA who actually used them on JFK-LHR routes when they took over from TWA!


Believe there were just 2 not 3. The third was never delivered to TWA and ended up as a government aircraft for a Middle East country. The logic behind the SP at TWA was to operate JFK-NRT, not to Saudi Arabia. TWA was not awarded NRT slots and subsequently flew the SP's to KWI, BOM, and later used them to CDG, FCO, MXP and they rotated around the TATL network, before being withdrawn in 1985. They were expensive to operate, the SP was not very fuel efficient, and they ended up with AA in 1986, when it launched DFW-NRT. In 1991, AA moved them to JFK to fly the two evening departures from JFK to LHR before withdrawing them completely from service a few months later.
 
sevenheavy
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Re: TWA at LHR Question

Tue Aug 25, 2020 12:26 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
sevenheavy wrote:
Max Q wrote:


I’ve forgotten what routes their SP’s were purchased for ?


I think they bought three new models?


It was three, all delivered in 1980. They were originally intended for non stop routes from JFK to Saudi Arabia and a couple of other Middle East cities but the routes never materialised.

These aircraft returned to LHR in the early 90’s - TWA sold two of them to AA who actually used them on JFK-LHR routes when they took over from TWA!


Believe there were just 2 not 3. The third was never delivered to TWA and ended up as a government aircraft for a Middle East country. The logic behind the SP at TWA was to operate JFK-NRT, not to Saudi Arabia. TWA was not awarded NRT slots and subsequently flew the SP's to KWI, BOM, and later used them to CDG, FCO, MXP and they rotated around the TATL network, before being withdrawn in 1985. They were expensive to operate, the SP was not very fuel efficient, and they ended up with AA in 1986, when it launched DFW-NRT. In 1991, AA moved them to JFK to fly the two evening departures from JFK to LHR before withdrawing them completely from service a few months later.


There were three, 58201, 57202 and 57203. All delivered in 1980.

201 went to the UAE royal flight in 1985. 202 and 203 went to AA in 1986 to operate DFW-NRT as you say.

As well as LHR they also operated to BRU for a while.
So long 701, it was nice knowing you.
 
WA707atMSP
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Re: TWA at LHR Question

Tue Aug 25, 2020 12:45 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
Kiwings wrote:
And did they ever use their SP’s on LHR-LAX ?

No, that was a 747 , from memory in the mid 80's the SP did a LAX BOS CDG route.


The SP twins were gone by 1985 and began operations for AA in 1986 for its DFW-NRT services. TWA bought the SP in 1980 because it anticipated being awarded route authority between JFK and NRT and the stage length required 2 frames. TWA was not awarded the NRT routes and kept the SP's for a time, using them on a number of routes throughout the system. They did operate to KWI and BOM, and were also at CDG, MXP, and FCO at times, but were taken out of service and stored before being sold to AA. American shifted the 747SP to JFK in 1991 to operate the two evening overnight flights to LHR when it first started the JFK-LHR routes it bought from TWA (AA began ops in July 1991).


The late Jon Proctor, a long time TWA employee who was the most knowledgeable person about TWA's history, never said TWA applied for JFK-NRT, and purchased 747-SPs in hopes of getting the route.

In 2012, Airways Magazine published a special issue about TWA (" Airways Classics #6: TWA 1925-2001") written by Mr. Proctor. It says:

"Three 747SPs were added in 1980 in anticipation of route awards to Saudi Arabia that did not materialize. Instead they were deployed mainly between Los Angeles and Boston, and across the Atlantic to Paris". (p. 56, TWA 1925-2001).

The US-Japan bilateral in the 1970s was even more restrictive than Bermuda II. Pan Am and Northwest already had nonstop authority from New York City to Japan, and there's no way the Japanese government would have allowed an additional airline on the route. TWA would have known this, so there's no way they would have purchased 747SPs in hopes of getting a route to Japan that they stood no chance of being awarded.
 
FCOTSTW
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Re: TWA at LHR Question

Tue Aug 25, 2020 1:38 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
FCOTSTW wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
Looking for the definitive list of TWA's destinations served from LHR, aircraft used, frequencies at the height of the airline's TATL network (1987-1989). As I recall it was:

JFK (2 x daily) 747 + a third flight added on an L1011 in cooperation with Gulf Air (was this LGW or LHR)?
LAX (1 x daily) 747
ORD (1 x daily) 747
BOS (1 x daily) L1011

I thought TWA also had PHL and IAD in the mix, both on the L1011, and that 767s were not used at LHR.

Lastly, where in T3 was the Ambassador's Club located?

If anyone has the details and could clarify, that would be great.


From my recollection, at the zenith of operations TW flew JFK 3X daily (flight 701, 703, and ??), LAX (flight 761) once daily, BOS, (flight 753) once daily. They had ORD but they sold (1987?) to either AA or UA. In addition, they also had a LHR-PHL (767) and an LGW-IAD (L10) and an LGW-STL (747).


When TWA sold its LHR slots in 1991 to AA, I believe the ORD-LHR route was included but in a separate transaction.


Yes it was a separate transaction that IIRC happened a couple of years earlier. As a matter of fact, when ORD-LHR got sold did not even create many ripples, as, internally, it was believed to be some sort of "repositioning" and optimization in terms of routes. The real punch came when all the remaining LHR routes got sold. That was a wake-up call.
 
FCOTSTW
Posts: 232
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Re: TWA at LHR Question

Tue Aug 25, 2020 1:41 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
Did TWA also briefly operate a JFK-LGW service or am I just imaging that? I travelled often on TWA 700/TWA 701 as a teenager to/from LHR, and thought there was a LGW service for a short time, but I think I am wrong on this. I as 15 or 16 at the time, so not sure if that was accurate.


No, I do not recall any JFK-LGW at any time.
 
FCOTSTW
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Re: TWA at LHR Question

Tue Aug 25, 2020 1:45 pm

Kiwings wrote:
And did they ever use their SP’s on LHR-LAX ?

No, that was a 747 , from memory in the mid 80's the SP did a LAX BOS CDG route.

[photoid][/photoid]

747SPs were mainly used from CDG and from FCO and IIRC domestically. I remember 747SP going FCO BOS with possible continuation to SFO
 
khowaga
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Re: TWA at LHR Question

Tue Aug 25, 2020 4:28 pm

FCOTSTW wrote:
Kiwings wrote:
And did they ever use their SP’s on LHR-LAX ?

No, that was a 747 , from memory in the mid 80's the SP did a LAX BOS CDG route.

[photoid][/photoid]

747SPs were mainly used from CDG and from FCO and IIRC domestically. I remember 747SP going FCO BOS with possible continuation to SFO

There was a very short-lived JFK-CAI-KWI at some point in the mid-80s; when I lived in Cairo in the mid-90s their ticket office still had a map on the wall showing the route!
 
superjeff
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Re: TWA at LHR Question

Tue Aug 25, 2020 5:45 pm

aeromoe wrote:
superjeff wrote:
I don't know for certain, but I'm about 95% sure that they never bought any new 747-200's.


They didn't buy new -200s from Boeing. Now you know for certain and can be 100% sure. These were ex-TAP 747-282Bs (2), ex-Swissair 747-257Bs (2), an ex-Olympic 747-284B (1), an ex-America West/KLM -206B (1), and an ex-Qantas 747-238B (1). Keep in mind, a couple of these airframes didn't go from the original customer to TWA...they had interim lives before joining TWA.



Thanks for the info. I think Pan Am got their 747-200's from Singapore Air but had no idea where TWA got theirs from.
 
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aeromoe
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Re: TWA at LHR Question

Tue Aug 25, 2020 8:52 pm

superjeff wrote:
aeromoe wrote:
superjeff wrote:
I don't know for certain, but I'm about 95% sure that they never bought any new 747-200's.


They didn't buy new -200s from Boeing. Now you know for certain and can be 100% sure. These were ex-TAP 747-282Bs (2), ex-Swissair 747-257Bs (2), an ex-Olympic 747-284B (1), an ex-America West/KLM -206B (1), and an ex-Qantas 747-238B (1). Keep in mind, a couple of these airframes didn't go from the original customer to TWA...they had interim lives before joining TWA.



Thanks for the info. I think Pan Am got their 747-200's from Singapore Air but had no idea where TWA got theirs from.


you're welcome superjeff. I literally began to write the book (that never became a book) in the early 90s on US airline fleets. Compiling fleet lists from myriad sources. When the internet came about I just decided to post what I had up to that point...and there it sits...basically untouched for the last 24 or so years. Once GeoCities went away (where it first resided) I eventually got my own domain name and transferred all my files there. IF you wish to check it out, the index is here: http://www.aeromoe.com/fleets/airlines.html
Since 60s: AA AC AS BA BD BF BN BR(85) BY B6 CO CZ(16) DG DL EA EI EN FI FL FT F9 HA HP ICX JI JQ J7 KE KL KS LH MC NW OC OO OZ(87) OZ(88) PA PI PN(97) PT QF QQ RM RO RV(99) RV(16) RW SK SM SQ S4 TI TS TW UA UK US UZ VS VX WA WN WS W7 XV YV YX(13) ZZ 9K
 
psimpson
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Re: TWA at LHR Question

Tue Aug 25, 2020 8:52 pm

TW715 was the flight number of the daily evening LHR-JFK service using Gulf Air L1011 that i saw depart on a number of occasions.
I don't recall the ex JFK flight number but i am certain it was not TW714, it may have been TW704/TW702?
 
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adambrau
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Re: TWA at LHR Question

Wed Aug 26, 2020 6:11 am

Cointrin330 wrote:
adambrau wrote:
FCOTSTW wrote:

From my recollection, at the zenith of operations TW flew JFK 3X daily (flight 701, 703, and ??), LAX (flight 761) once daily, BOS, (flight 753) once daily. They had ORD but they sold (1987?) to either AA or UA. In addition, they also had a LHR-PHL (767) and an LGW-IAD (L10) and an LGW-STL (747).


Just a slight correction as per my memory during my two years based in London 1985-1987:

JFK-LHR was TW700/702. Eastbound was odd-numbered.

ORD-LHR was TW770 and eastbound TW771.

LAX and BOS I recall except flight numbers.

My dad flew PHL-LHR around same time on a 767 variant.

STL was always to LGW.

PA was always dominant over TW at LHR and those flights I better remember. My favorite PA flight was PA 102 JFK-LHR-HAM-TXL. I always preferred PA crews to TW and sadly it's been years since either options are available. RIP TW and PA.


A few corrections. The first evening departure to LHR on TWA was TWA 708. The second was TWA 700. There was only one 767 type in the TWA fleet at the time the airline served LHR and that was the -200ER. TWA did not acquire 763s until the mid to late 1990s. Pan Am was larger than TWA at LHR for the most part. From what I recall (I was a teenager in the 1980s), TWA had overall better in flight service than Pan Am and maintained the cabin interiors a bit better.


I have a personal LHR bag tag from the mid 80's with TW702. So maybe it changed from time to time?
JFK Friendly

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