Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
User avatar
Dutchy
Topic Author
Posts: 12417
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

SLM new 777 and ETOPS

Tue Aug 25, 2020 1:28 pm

Surinam Airways is the small national carrier of Surinam. Their only long haul route is from Paramaribo to Amsterdam. They acquired an Ex-Singapore Airlines 772ER to put on the route. Interesting article about the ETOPS rules and how it effects SLM.

PARAMARIBO - Although the SLM's Boeing 777-200ER has now been declared airworthy, it still lacks ETOPS certification. That is why the Surinamese company has to make a significant detour when the Boeing is used on the route to Schiphol.

SLM director Radjesh Radjkoemar confirms this to De Ware Tijd. According to him, it provides an extra flight time of one and a half hours to Schiphol, but according to experts who consulted the newspaper it would even go at three extra hours.

Due to the lack of ETOPS (Extended-range Twin-engine Operational Performance Standards) certification, the Triple Seven is not allowed to fly over stretches of the Atlantic Ocean where there is no alternate airport nearby. For example, the aircraft cannot fly the shortest route.

The aircraft that the SLM previously used on the scheduled service to Schiphol (Airbus A340, Boeing 747) did not have this problem, because they are four-engined and therefore do not require ETOPS certification. With four engines, it is less problematic if one of the engines breaks down.

'Cause CASAS and corona'
Radjkoemar attributes the lack of ETOPS certification for the Triple Seven to the corona crisis and to the Surinamese aviation authority CASAS. The SLM itself would not be guilty of it. "Let this be clear, this has to do with the Covid situation and with CASAS."

According to the SLM director, all that is needed is a flight SIM demonstration. It would take place in Miami, because CASAS itself does not have enough expertise, but that cannot continue due to corona. "CASAS is now looking into how to attract that expertise in the Netherlands."

"The machine is now non-ETOPS certified and CASAS does not need any expertise for that", says Radjkoemar. The Boeing will probably be deployed to Schiphol from September, but with a detour for the time being. It is not clear how long this will take.

Yet another setback
The ETOPS issue is yet another setback in the certification of the Boeing 777. The former Singapore Airlines aircraft, which will be temporarily leased until a Boeing 787 joins the fleet, should have entered service early this year.

The SLM has been using expensive wet-lease devices for the route to Schiphol for months now. An Airbus A340 from Air Belgium is currently in use.


Link in Dutch

Will they get ETOPS certified in a timely manner? Seems to be expensive to have to fly a detour of 1,5hours to 3 hours each leg. What route do they have to fly? I guess, either fly east and than fly Brazil - Africa? Or fly way up north towards Canada - Iceland - Scotland route. It would be interesting to hear the thoughts and views of someone more in the know about this issue.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 16153
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: SLM new 777 and ETOPS

Tue Aug 25, 2020 1:36 pm

It’s not EDTO certification, the operator has to gain EDTO approval from its local regulator, and does that by have a statistical valid period of proven maintenance. planning, and operation of the type and engines.
“Don't be a show-off. Never be too proud to turn back. There are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old, bold pilots.” E. Hamilton Lee, 1949
 
Ronaldo747
Posts: 410
Joined: Sat Feb 14, 2009 4:58 pm

Re: SLM new 777 and ETOPS

Tue Aug 25, 2020 1:54 pm

And this be will adding costs, so below the line with the current oil prices there will be probably no cost advantage with the 777 over the A340 anymore.

Wonder if they even don't think about EDTO ahead of the purchase of the 777 ...
 
Thenoflyzone
Posts: 3114
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2001 4:42 am

Re: SLM new 777 and ETOPS

Tue Aug 25, 2020 5:11 pm

What route do they have to fly? I guess, either fly east and than fly Brazil - Africa? Or fly way up north towards Canada - Iceland - Scotland route.


Fairly certain you can’t cross from Brazil to Africa without EDTO.

You would need to fly via Canada, Greenland and Iceland. It’s a significant detour for a route like PBM-AMS.

You’re looking at a 1850 nm (~4h) detour. And this is assuming airports like BDA, SFJ and KEF are useable alternates. If they're not due to weather on a particular day, the flight will need to deviate even more, or won't be able to operate at all that day.

http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=pbm-ams%2C ... 410&EU=kts

Image
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
 
IWMBH
Posts: 635
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:01 pm

Re: SLM new 777 and ETOPS

Tue Aug 25, 2020 6:26 pm

Hope are they able to compete with companies like KLM and TUI that are able to fly a direct route?
 
PANAMsterdam
Posts: 367
Joined: Thu Jun 27, 2019 7:45 am

Re: SLM new 777 and ETOPS

Tue Aug 25, 2020 7:08 pm

IWMBH wrote:
Hope are they able to compete with companies like KLM and TUI that are able to fly a direct route?


They have managed to compete with KLM for decades, and they actually partnered up with TUI for the last few years. Dutch citizens often fly KLM to PBM and Surinam citizens often fly SLM, as a way of pride for their nation and their flag carrier.
Every country has an airline. The world has Pan Am.
 
ERAUMBA
Posts: 47
Joined: Thu Nov 28, 2019 6:08 pm

Re: SLM new 777 and ETOPS

Tue Aug 25, 2020 7:30 pm

PANAMsterdam wrote:
IWMBH wrote:
Hope are they able to compete with companies like KLM and TUI that are able to fly a direct route?


They have managed to compete with KLM for decades, and they actually partnered up with TUI for the last few years. Dutch citizens often fly KLM to PBM and Surinam citizens often fly SLM, as a way of pride for their nation and their flag carrier.


Pride for their nation?
 
User avatar
747classic
Posts: 3850
Joined: Sat Aug 15, 2009 9:13 am

Re: SLM new 777 and ETOPS

Tue Aug 25, 2020 7:55 pm

I'm a frequent traveller towards PBM (with KLM) and talk a lot with the local population during my stays in Surinam.
Last year i noticed that a growing number of Surinam citizens have lost their fate in the flag carrier SLM, due the frequent delays, aircraft changes and sudden cancellations (all before covid-19) and despite the somewhat lower PBM-AMS fares compared to KLM.
This latest "soap" concerning the delayed and further delayed introduction of the SLM B777 has been watched and discussed (in the local media) by a large part of the Surinam population.
I sincerely hope that the relationship between the Netherlands and Surinam (and KLM and SLM) will become normal again with the newly elected Surinam government in charge..
Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
 
IWMBH
Posts: 635
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:01 pm

Re: SLM new 777 and ETOPS

Tue Aug 25, 2020 8:15 pm

PANAMsterdam wrote:
IWMBH wrote:
Hope are they able to compete with companies like KLM and TUI that are able to fly a direct route?


They have managed to compete with KLM for decades, and they actually partnered up with TUI for the last few years. Dutch citizens often fly KLM to PBM and Surinam citizens often fly SLM, as a way of pride for their nation and their flag carrier.


Yeah, they’ve competed with KLM for decades but how can you compete when you’ve to fly a longer route? Only because of the Surinam citizens’ pride? That didn’t prevented other airlines from failing.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 9656
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: SLM new 777 and ETOPS

Wed Aug 26, 2020 1:13 am

Thenoflyzone wrote:
What route do they have to fly? I guess, either fly east and than fly Brazil - Africa? Or fly way up north towards Canada - Iceland - Scotland route.


Fairly certain you can’t cross from Brazil to Africa without EDTO.

You would need to fly via Canada, Greenland and Iceland. It’s a significant detour for a route like PBM-AMS.


120 minute EDTO via SID?
 
Thenoflyzone
Posts: 3114
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2001 4:42 am

Re: SLM new 777 and ETOPS

Wed Aug 26, 2020 2:54 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
120 minute EDTO via SID?


Yes, doable, but still a 13% detour. 180 min is the ideal requirement here. Can't imagine they would settle for only 120 min.

http://www.gcmap.com/map?P=pbm-ams,+pbm ... 410&EU=kts

Image
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
 
FlyingHonu001
Posts: 447
Joined: Thu Jan 30, 2020 2:33 pm

Re: SLM new 777 and ETOPS

Wed Aug 26, 2020 7:47 am

IWMBH wrote:
PANAMsterdam wrote:
IWMBH wrote:
Hope are they able to compete with companies like KLM and TUI that are able to fly a direct route?


They have managed to compete with KLM for decades, and they actually partnered up with TUI for the last few years. Dutch citizens often fly KLM to PBM and Surinam citizens often fly SLM, as a way of pride for their nation and their flag carrier.


Yeah, they’ve competed with KLM for decades but how can you compete when you’ve to fly a longer route? Only because of the Surinam citizens’ pride? That didn’t prevented other airlines from failing.


At the moment, they are unable to be competitve if the 772 is still not properly certified. Back then they also had the quad engined PZ-TCR which was able to do the proper long hauls justifying the codesharing with TUI. But ever since they retired PZ-TCR, SLM is now having to do an pretty expensive wet lease from KF.
 
Thenoflyzone
Posts: 3114
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2001 4:42 am

Re: SLM new 777 and ETOPS

Wed Aug 26, 2020 11:52 am

Ronaldo747 wrote:
And this be will adding costs, so below the line with the current oil prices there will be probably no cost advantage with the 777 over the A340 anymore.


Exactly. Why did they get rid of PZ-TCR in the first place? Was it to cut costs or because the aircraft had reached the end of its life?

They should had bought/leased another A343 instead. The A343 burns less fuel than a B772ER to begin with. The advantage of going with the B772 is its higher payload capacity/seating, less engines to maintain, and higher cruise speed, which sort of negates the fuel burn advantage of the A343. This being said, with today’s economy and suppressed travel demand, combined with the fact that a quad is pretty much unrestricted in terms of routing on a PBM-AMS flight, makes the A343 a perfect machine for Surinam Airways.

Too bad they went with the B772ER.
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
 
sxf24
Posts: 1194
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2007 12:22 pm

Re: SLM new 777 and ETOPS

Wed Aug 26, 2020 11:57 am

Thenoflyzone wrote:
Ronaldo747 wrote:
And this be will adding costs, so below the line with the current oil prices there will be probably no cost advantage with the 777 over the A340 anymore.


Exactly. Why did they get rid of PZ-TCR in the first place? Was it to cut costs or because the aircraft had reached the end of its life?

They should had bought/leased another A343 instead. The A343 burns less fuel than a B772ER to begin with. The advantage of going with the B772 is its higher payload capacity/seating, less engines to maintain, and higher cruise speed, which sort of negates the fuel burn advantage of the A343. This being said, with today’s economy and suppressed travel demand, combined with the fact that a quad is pretty much unrestricted in terms of routing on a PBM-AMS flight, makes the A343 a perfect machine for Surinam Airways.

Too bad they went with the B772ER.


Where does one lease a A343 these days and how do you maintain it?
 
IWMBH
Posts: 635
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:01 pm

Re: SLM new 777 and ETOPS

Wed Aug 26, 2020 12:38 pm

Thenoflyzone wrote:
Ronaldo747 wrote:
And this be will adding costs, so below the line with the current oil prices there will be probably no cost advantage with the 777 over the A340 anymore.


Exactly. Why did they get rid of PZ-TCR in the first place? Was it to cut costs or because the aircraft had reached the end of its life?

They should had bought/leased another A343 instead. The A343 burns less fuel than a B772ER to begin with. The advantage of going with the B772 is its higher payload capacity/seating, less engines to maintain, and higher cruise speed, which sort of negates the fuel burn advantage of the A343. This being said, with today’s economy and suppressed travel demand, combined with the fact that a quad is pretty much unrestricted in terms of routing on a PBM-AMS flight, makes the A343 a perfect machine for Surinam Airways.

Too bad they went with the B772ER.


I think the A343 they owned proved to be unreliable. Also, with current economy the A340’s will be pulled from service before you know it. Not a great plane to build your future on.
 
pythoniels
Posts: 41
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2006 7:54 pm

Re: SLM new 777 and ETOPS

Wed Aug 26, 2020 2:36 pm

747classic wrote:
I'm a frequent traveller towards PBM (with KLM) and talk a lot with the local population during my stays in Surinam.
Last year i noticed that a growing number of Surinam citizens have lost their fate in the flag carrier SLM, due the frequent delays, aircraft changes and sudden cancellations (all before covid-19) and despite the somewhat lower PBM-AMS fares compared to KLM.
This latest "soap" concerning the delayed and further delayed introduction of the SLM B777 has been watched and discussed (in the local media) by a large part of the Surinam population.
I sincerely hope that the relationship between the Netherlands and Surinam (and KLM and SLM) will become normal again with the newly elected Surinam government in charge..
I've heard these stories too. By default, SLM arrives in Amsterdam a few hours later. Departure is also rarely in time. Anyone who can share some light on the reason for all these delays? We can't blaim everything on the good old A340-300 which is now retired.
 
MEA-707
Posts: 3856
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 1999 4:51 am

Re: SLM new 777 and ETOPS

Wed Aug 26, 2020 3:14 pm

ERAUMBA wrote:
PANAMsterdam wrote:
IWMBH wrote:
Hope are they able to compete with companies like KLM and TUI that are able to fly a direct route?


They have managed to compete with KLM for decades, and they actually partnered up with TUI for the last few years. Dutch citizens often fly KLM to PBM and Surinam citizens often fly SLM, as a way of pride for their nation and their flag carrier.


Pride for their nation?

Yes a common and understandable thing. KLM and TUI are from the old colonisator country, so some people prefer to show they are independent and fly in their own countries aircraft, proud that a small country can still operate its own widebody. Surinamese were very happy about their own yellow/orange DC-8-63 in 1975. It's not always rational; see the 747s which were flown in Africa in the 1970s-80s, by Cameroon Airlines, Air Madagascar, Air Mauritius, Zaire Airways, they wanted to show that they can. After many millions of losses it was a hard swallow for some countries to give up their long haul market to Emirates or Air France.
nobody has ever died from hard work, but why take the risk?
 
User avatar
747classic
Posts: 3850
Joined: Sat Aug 15, 2009 9:13 am

Re: SLM new 777 and ETOPS

Wed Aug 26, 2020 3:45 pm

According the CEO Radjesh Radjkoemar SLM has a debt of $88 milj and is loosing $5 milj /month at the moment.
He admits that the partnership with TUI was a bad decision.
See (in Dutch) : http://www.dwtonline.com/laatste-nieuws ... 8-miljoen/
PZ-TCU has been effectivly grounded since arriving in PBM at December 2019.
The present lease will end in May 2021, therafter the plan was to lease a 787.

SLM fleet :
1x B777-212ER, 2x B737-700, all leased.
Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
 
tvh
Posts: 216
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 7:41 am

Re: SLM new 777 and ETOPS

Wed Aug 26, 2020 4:34 pm

It is simply not realistic to setup a long range operation for just one destination and only 3 or 4 times a week.
 
FlyingHonu001
Posts: 447
Joined: Thu Jan 30, 2020 2:33 pm

Re: SLM new 777 and ETOPS

Wed Aug 26, 2020 4:42 pm

pythoniels wrote:
...By default, SLM arrives in Amsterdam a few hours later. Departure is also rarely in time. Anyone who can share some light on the reason for all these delays? We can't blaim everything on the good old A340-300 which is now retired.


Well...Surinam is close enough to the Caribbean, how about having a very relaxed attitude towards time/punctuality? No spang 8-)
 
LJ
Posts: 5466
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 1999 8:28 pm

Re: SLM new 777 and ETOPS

Wed Aug 26, 2020 6:05 pm

747classic wrote:
The present lease will end in May 2021, therafter the plan was to lease a 787..


Thus there is a real possibility that the 777 will only make a few pax revenue flights to AMS...... Maybe they should extend the lease of the 777. Given the current climate, leases should be relatively cheap compared to a 787.

LAXintl wrote:

Pax
B777-200ER – $10.4 – 34.5M, $100-310,000
B777-300ER – $42.0 – 149.0M, $300-1,250,000
B787-8 - $66.0 - 119.0M, $530-950,000
B787-9 - $95.0 - 146.0, $705-1,110,000


https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1449067
 
IWMBH
Posts: 635
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:01 pm

Re: SLM new 777 and ETOPS

Wed Aug 26, 2020 8:11 pm

LJ wrote:
747classic wrote:
The present lease will end in May 2021, therafter the plan was to lease a 787..


Thus there is a real possibility that the 777 will only make a few pax revenue flights to AMS...... Maybe they should extend the lease of the 777. Given the current climate, leases should be relatively cheap compared to a 787.

LAXintl wrote:

Pax
B777-200ER – $10.4 – 34.5M, $100-310,000
B777-300ER – $42.0 – 149.0M, $300-1,250,000
B787-8 - $66.0 - 119.0M, $530-950,000
B787-9 - $95.0 - 146.0, $705-1,110,000


https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1449067


I expect the prices of 787’s to drop like a ton of brigs as well during this crisis.
 
PANAMsterdam
Posts: 367
Joined: Thu Jun 27, 2019 7:45 am

Re: SLM new 777 and ETOPS

Thu Aug 27, 2020 1:48 pm

IWMBH wrote:
PANAMsterdam wrote:
IWMBH wrote:
Hope are they able to compete with companies like KLM and TUI that are able to fly a direct route?


They have managed to compete with KLM for decades, and they actually partnered up with TUI for the last few years. Dutch citizens often fly KLM to PBM and Surinam citizens often fly SLM, as a way of pride for their nation and their flag carrier.


Yeah, they’ve competed with KLM for decades but how can you compete when you’ve to fly a longer route? Only because of the Surinam citizens’ pride? That didn’t prevented other airlines from failing.


My remark was obviously about SLM itself, not about the 777 :) It's indeed impossible to compete with KLM/TUI if you have to fly a very inefficient route.

Their old A340 was a disastrous plane. One day it departed AMS, had to declare an emergency due to a flap issue, returned to AMS. Flight delayed a couple of hours while the issue got fixed, passengers boarded again, plane took off and guess what? They had to return again due to the same flap issue returning. Flight then got canceled.
Every country has an airline. The world has Pan Am.
 
User avatar
747classic
Posts: 3850
Joined: Sat Aug 15, 2009 9:13 am

Re: SLM new 777 and ETOPS

Thu Aug 27, 2020 2:24 pm

LJ wrote:
747classic wrote:
The present lease will end in May 2021, therafter the plan was to lease a 787..


Thus there is a real possibility that the 777 will only make a few pax revenue flights to AMS...... Maybe they should extend the lease of the 777. Given the current climate, leases should be relatively cheap compared to a 787.

LAXintl wrote:

Pax
B777-200ER – $10.4 – 34.5M, $100-310,000
B777-300ER – $42.0 – 149.0M, $300-1,250,000
B787-8 - $66.0 - 119.0M, $530-950,000
B787-9 - $95.0 - 146.0, $705-1,110,000


https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1449067


I hope that, after the re-installation of the Dutch and Surinam ambassadors in autumn of this year, the relationship between SLM and KLM will become also normal again.
The best solution for SLM would be to lease a surplus KLM 777-200ER in May 2021, with full maintenance support at AMS + a spare GE90 engine on standby at the KLM motorshop and a Cat D Full flight simulator at SPL-east, to be use during the stop-overs at AMS.
Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
 
User avatar
eta unknown
Posts: 3039
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2001 5:03 am

Re: SLM new 777 and ETOPS

Thu Aug 27, 2020 5:13 pm

MEA-707 wrote:
ERAUMBA wrote:
PANAMsterdam wrote:

They have managed to compete with KLM for decades, and they actually partnered up with TUI for the last few years. Dutch citizens often fly KLM to PBM and Surinam citizens often fly SLM, as a way of pride for their nation and their flag carrier.


Pride for their nation?

Yes a common and understandable thing. KLM and TUI are from the old colonisator country, so some people prefer to show they are independent and fly in their own countries aircraft, proud that a small country can still operate its own widebody. Surinamese were very happy about their own yellow/orange DC-8-63 in 1975. It's not always rational; see the 747s which were flown in Africa in the 1970s-80s, by Cameroon Airlines, Air Madagascar, Air Mauritius, Zaire Airways, they wanted to show that they can. After many millions of losses it was a hard swallow for some countries to give up their long haul market to Emirates or Air France.

I wouldn't put MK's used SP's in the same boat as brand new -200 combis. Hell add GN to the list of you want. And EK didn't come into the picture until well after these orders and BTW except for MRU EK doesn't serve any of the other African destinations you mentioned.
 
FlyingHonu001
Posts: 447
Joined: Thu Jan 30, 2020 2:33 pm

Re: SLM new 777 and ETOPS

Sat Sep 05, 2020 8:32 am

PZ-TCU apparently already took the leap across the pond, currently spotted idle at AMS. Testflight?

Source: https://fr24.com/data/aircraft/pz-tcu#256956cc
 
factsonly
Posts: 3123
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2012 3:08 pm

Re: SLM new 777 and ETOPS

Sat Sep 05, 2020 8:45 am

FlyingHonu001 wrote:
PZ-TCU apparently already took the leap across the pond, currently spotted idle at AMS. Testflight?

Source: https://fr24.com/data/aircraft/pz-tcu#256956cc


No the aircraft operated PBM-AMS for the first time on an overnight service on 4/5 September.
The TATL routing stays close the USA/Canadian/Icelandic coast to stay within (non) ETOPS guidelines.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Topic Author
Posts: 12417
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: SLM new 777 and ETOPS

Sat Sep 05, 2020 9:09 am

SCHIPHOL - The "new" Boeing 777-200ER from Surinam Airways landed for the first time at Schiphol on Saturday morning. It would be a demonstration flight, which was carried out from Paramaribo. The aircraft made a detour due to the lack of ETOPS certification.

Instead of flying in a straight line to the Netherlands, a course was steered east of the Caribbean and the North American coast. The flight duration is therefore about an hour and a half longer than normal.

Due to the lack of ETOPS certification, the twin-engine Triple Seven is not allowed to fly over stretches of the Atlantic Ocean where there is no alternate airport nearby.

ETOPS stands for Extended-range Twin-engine Operational Performance Standards. With the four-engine Airbus A340, where Surinam Airways flew until the beginning of this year, and the former Boeing 747-300, this was not an issue.

The Boeing 777 landed at Schiphol on Saturday morning at 8:52 am. It is not yet known when the SLM will use the device on the paramaribo-Amsterdam service, but this may happen later this month. Until then, the company will hire capacity elsewhere, such as Air Belgium.

Incidentally, Surinam Airways has given the new addition a name. 'Bird of the Green Paradise' was chosen from more than a hundred names submitted. That name ties in with the rainforest theme of the livery that the Boeing 777 is equipped with.

Surinam Airways' Boeing 777-200ER was delivered new to Singapore Airlines in November 2002. After having flown for Air New Zealand for a short time, the aircraft arrived at Paramaribo airport in December 2019.


Link

1,5hours of detour and indeed flying way up north.

Route
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
FlyingHonu001
Posts: 447
Joined: Thu Jan 30, 2020 2:33 pm

Re: SLM new 777 and ETOPS

Sat Sep 05, 2020 10:06 am

factsonly wrote:
FlyingHonu001 wrote:
PZ-TCU apparently already took the leap across the pond, currently spotted idle at AMS. Testflight?

Source: https://fr24.com/data/aircraft/pz-tcu#256956cc


No the aircraft operated PBM-AMS for the first time on an overnight service on 4/5 September.
The TATL routing stays close the USA/Canadian/Icelandic coast to stay within (non) ETOPS guidelines.


Thats weird, cause at the moment PY only flies revenue TATL every Tuesday/Wednesday
 
factsonly
Posts: 3123
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2012 3:08 pm

Re: SLM new 777 and ETOPS

Sat Sep 05, 2020 12:19 pm

FlyingHonu001 wrote:
factsonly wrote:
FlyingHonu001 wrote:
PZ-TCU apparently already took the leap across the pond, currently spotted idle at AMS. Testflight?

Source: https://fr24.com/data/aircraft/pz-tcu#256956cc


No the aircraft operated PBM-AMS for the first time on an overnight service on 4/5 September.
The TATL routing stays close the USA/Canadian/Icelandic coast to stay within (non) ETOPS guidelines.


Thats weird, cause at the moment PY only flies revenue TATL every Tuesday/Wednesday


Nobody stated it was a revenue service !!
 
FlyingHonu001
Posts: 447
Joined: Thu Jan 30, 2020 2:33 pm

Re: SLM new 777 and ETOPS

Sat Sep 05, 2020 1:55 pm

factsonly wrote:
FlyingHonu001 wrote:
factsonly wrote:

No the aircraft operated PBM-AMS for the first time on an overnight service on 4/5 September.
The TATL routing stays close the USA/Canadian/Icelandic coast to stay within (non) ETOPS guidelines.


Thats weird, cause at the moment PY only flies revenue TATL every Tuesday/Wednesday


Nobody stated it was a revenue service !!


No spang, brother :mrgreen: It was a testflight, PZ-TCU aka "Bird of the Green Paradise" now on stand G79 awaiting for its homebound leg
 
FlyingHonu001
Posts: 447
Joined: Thu Jan 30, 2020 2:33 pm

Re: SLM new 777 and ETOPS

Sun Sep 06, 2020 12:21 pm

PZ-TCU preparing for her homestretch back to PBM,
ETD 15:15 local time, probably from rwy 24
 
Thenoflyzone
Posts: 3114
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2001 4:42 am

Re: SLM new 777 and ETOPS

Mon Sep 07, 2020 1:27 am

Dutchy wrote:

Link

1,5hours of detour and indeed flying way up north.

Route


That is more than a 1.5 hour detour. Sure, the eastbound leg to AMS is quicker than the westbound leg, but it's still a longer detour than just 1.5 hours.

The westbound flight hasn't even landed at PBM yet, and the flight time is already above 12 hours !. Usually AMS-PBM takes 9h20 minutes. It will be a 3 hour + detour.

https://www.flightradar24.com/SLM995P/256d32ba
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
 
FlyingHonu001
Posts: 447
Joined: Thu Jan 30, 2020 2:33 pm

Re: SLM new 777 and ETOPS

Mon Nov 30, 2020 7:10 am

SLM994 now on route to AMS for ETOPS validation for the PZ-TCU, the airline's sole 772

https://www.flightstats.com/v2/flight-t ... 1049299321
 
User avatar
CrimsonNL
Posts: 2196
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2007 6:34 pm

Re: SLM new 777 and ETOPS

Sat Feb 27, 2021 10:58 am

Luchtvaartnieuws is reporting that SLM is already looking to get rid of the 777, and wants Boeing to take the plane back, possibly as soon as next week! I wonder how much money they wasted to operate this plane for a mere two months.. The saga continues!

In Dutch only:

https://luchtvaartnieuws.nl/nieuws/cate ... aan-boeing
Always comparing your flown types list with mine
 
PANAMsterdam
Posts: 367
Joined: Thu Jun 27, 2019 7:45 am

Re: SLM new 777 and ETOPS

Sat Feb 27, 2021 12:00 pm

The SLM long haul plane is a never ending drama. First the ever-broken A340 and now a 777 first without ETOPS and now with an engine problem?!

Does SLM buy their planes on EBay or something?!
Every country has an airline. The world has Pan Am.
 
User avatar
armagnac2010
Posts: 156
Joined: Sun Jun 07, 2020 12:45 am

Re: SLM new 777 and ETOPS

Sat Feb 27, 2021 12:43 pm

Does SLM buy their planes on EBay or something?!



This one is apparently leased from Boeing. No reason for post-colonial condescendence, conscious or unconscious ...

Single aircraft operations are always challenging. The Trent 800 is maintenance intensive, even with Rolls-Royce support.
 
User avatar
747classic
Posts: 3850
Joined: Sat Aug 15, 2009 9:13 am

Re: SLM new 777 and ETOPS

Sat Feb 27, 2021 1:04 pm

armagnac2010 wrote:
Does SLM buy their planes on EBay or something?!



This one is apparently leased from Boeing. No reason for post-colonial condescendence, conscious or unconscious ...

Single aircraft operations are always challenging. The Trent 800 is maintenance intensive, even with Rolls-Royce support.


A team from SLM and Lufthansa Technik is trying to repair the aircraft for several days now. A possible outcome could be an engine change.
SLM is now negotiating an early return of the leased aircaft to Boeing. Scheduled aircraft return was original set at April 2021, but possible extended for a few months last year.
Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
 
danipawa
Posts: 560
Joined: Sat Oct 01, 2016 1:18 am

Re: SLM new 777 and ETOPS

Sat Feb 27, 2021 6:37 pm

Time to get a second hand B789...
 
LJ
Posts: 5466
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 1999 8:28 pm

Re: SLM new 777 and ETOPS

Sat Feb 27, 2021 6:41 pm

747classic wrote:
armagnac2010 wrote:
Does SLM buy their planes on EBay or something?!



This one is apparently leased from Boeing. No reason for post-colonial condescendence, conscious or unconscious ...

Single aircraft operations are always challenging. The Trent 800 is maintenance intensive, even with Rolls-Royce support.


A team from SLM and Lufthansa Technik is trying to repair the aircraft for several days now. A possible outcome could be an engine change.
SLM is now negotiating an early return of the leased aircaft to Boeing. Scheduled aircraft return was original set at April 2021, but possible extended for a few months last year.


Wouldn't they get a 787 to replace the 777?
 
FlyingHonu001
Posts: 447
Joined: Thu Jan 30, 2020 2:33 pm

Re: SLM new 777 and ETOPS

Sat Feb 27, 2021 7:16 pm

Its an aviation soap opera this company. Years ago, the Surinam government indeed wanted to acquire a 787 to replace the aging A343 . However the CEO at the time had connections with Boeing and negotiated the 772 lease by himself. He got fired and now they are stuck with it :boxedin:
 
User avatar
Polot
Posts: 11891
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

Re: SLM new 777 and ETOPS

Sat Feb 27, 2021 7:22 pm

FlyingHonu001 wrote:
Its an aviation soap opera this company. Years ago, the Surinam government indeed wanted to acquire a 787 to replace the aging A343 . However the CEO at the time had connections with Boeing and negotiated the 772 lease by himself. He got fired and now they are stuck with it :boxedin:

At the time that probably made sense. Years ago leasing a new 787 (as there were virtually no used 787 available) was not cheap. Now on the other hand...
 
User avatar
ArcticSEA
Posts: 371
Joined: Thu Oct 15, 2020 8:04 pm

Re: SLM new 777 and ETOPS

Sat Feb 27, 2021 7:40 pm

danipawa wrote:
Time to get a second hand B789...

Or a spare engine? Maybe two? One on each side of the Atlantic.
Delta would surely sell them one.
PNW-based private pilot and engineer. #fatpnw
 
User avatar
SilverwingSpttr
Posts: 36
Joined: Wed May 03, 2017 3:07 pm

Re: SLM new 777 and ETOPS

Sat Feb 27, 2021 8:17 pm

Or maybe time for an A330!
_____
Devyn
CFI/CFII/MEI
A306, A319, A320, A20N, A321, A21N, A332, A333, A346, A388, AT76, B712, B732, B733, B734, B73G, B738, B739/ER B39M, B744, B752, B753, B762, B763, B764, B772, B77L, B788, B789, C172, C208, DC3, DC10, MD11, MD80
 
User avatar
NWAROOSTER
Posts: 1393
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2005 2:29 pm

Re: SLM new 777 and ETOPS

Sat Feb 27, 2021 8:45 pm

ArcticSEA wrote:
danipawa wrote:
Time to get a second hand B789...

Or a spare engine? Maybe two? One on each side of the Atlantic.
Delta would surely sell them one.

Hate to say it but SLM might need two spare engines with green time as stated above by ArcticSEA. One in AMS and one in PBM and the extra maintenance and storage costs required. Operating a single aircraft with NO backup is not the way to go. Best if they give up the route and return the worn out 777-ER to Boeing. The aircraft was first flown by Singapore Airlines in 2002 until 2018. It was then operated by Air New Zealand for about one year before being leased by SLM. The aircraft has seen its better days. The only real option is a code share with an other airline if that is possible. Flying the flag can be expensive and be a money looser. :old:
Last edited by NWAROOSTER on Sat Feb 27, 2021 9:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Procrastination Is The Theft Of Time.......
 
User avatar
ArcticSEA
Posts: 371
Joined: Thu Oct 15, 2020 8:04 pm

Re: SLM new 777 and ETOPS

Sat Feb 27, 2021 8:59 pm

I wouldn't say their jet is "worn out".
They are just incompetent at running an airline and maintaining it.
PNW-based private pilot and engineer. #fatpnw
 
User avatar
ArcticSEA
Posts: 371
Joined: Thu Oct 15, 2020 8:04 pm

Re: SLM new 777 and ETOPS

Sat Feb 27, 2021 9:02 pm

Why do they even exist to begin with? KLM is more than enough capacity surely?
PNW-based private pilot and engineer. #fatpnw
 
TUGMASTER
Posts: 1360
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 2004 8:56 pm

Re: SLM new 777 and ETOPS

Sat Feb 27, 2021 9:15 pm

Surely some code share with KL would/should be the way forward.
Years ago , they were very pally together .
What happened..?
 
Antarius
Posts: 3436
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:27 pm

Re: SLM new 777 and ETOPS

Sat Feb 27, 2021 11:01 pm

NWAROOSTER wrote:
ArcticSEA wrote:
danipawa wrote:
Time to get a second hand B789...

Or a spare engine? Maybe two? One on each side of the Atlantic.
Delta would surely sell them one.

Hate to say it but SLM might need two spare engines with green time as stated above by ArcticSEA. One in AMS and one in PBM and the extra maintenance and storage costs required. Operating a single aircraft with NO backup is not the way to go. Best if they give up the route and return the worn out 777-ER to Boeing. The aircraft was first flown by Singapore Airlines in 2002 until 2018. It was then operated by Air New Zealand for about one year before being leased by SLM. The aircraft has seen its better days. The only real option is a code share with an other airline if that is possible. Flying the flag can be expensive and be a money looser. :old:


UA, AA, JL etc. Are still flying 777s delivered in the mid 90s. A 2002 aircraft is not old or worn out unless it's treated that way. And SQ and NZ do a pretty good job of taking care of their aircraft.
Militant Centrist
Let's all just use some common sense
 
hoons90
Posts: 3843
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2001 10:15 pm

Re: SLM new 777 and ETOPS

Sat Feb 27, 2021 11:02 pm

If they insist on keeping this route, maybe they can contract it out to Hifly or another ACMI carrier?
But if you're gonna do that, might as well just call it a day and only do a codeshare.
Flown: 2L 7C 9E 9L AA AB AC AF AY AZ BA BR BX B6 CA CO CP CX DL EK EY JL KE KL LA LH LX MQ NW OZ PD RW SQ TG TP TR TS US WG WN WS XE XJ

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos