Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
wedgetail737
Posts: 5286
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2003 8:44 am

Re: OAG Changes 8/25/2020:Cuts Begin for 21;DL DROPS NUMEROUS ROUTES INTL ROUTES FOR SUMMER 2021, Adds SEA-ONT,MSP-TVC

Wed Aug 26, 2020 3:02 am

DDR wrote:
With DL making so many cuts everywhere else, they are obviously keeping SEA flights that aren’t profitable in order to keep gates.


And it's not like DL will be gaining too many more gates in the future.
 
PVD523
Posts: 39
Joined: Tue Jan 14, 2020 8:01 am

Re: OAG Changes 8/25/2020:Cuts Begin for 21;DL DROPS NUMEROUS ROUTES INTL ROUTES FOR SUMMER 2021, Adds SEA-ONT,MSP-TVC

Wed Aug 26, 2020 3:07 am

FSDan wrote:
NWAESC wrote:
DL ATL-PVD OCT 3>0[3] NOV 3>2[3]


Nice to see PVD coming back to life.


Not to rain on the parade, but this looks to me like DL probably just extended September cuts into early November and hasn't cut further out yet. Hopefully they will be back in PVD as soon as traffic starts to return, as Providence is it's own decent-sized area and not just some Boston suburb...


That's exactly what this is. The initial suspension was through Sept 30. Now it's been pushed to Nov 9. According to some DL network folks, New England has lagged the rest of the domestic network, so a restart date for PVD will continue to be evaluated. Obviously I hope they're indeed back on Nov 9 but I wouldn't be surprised if the restart date gets pushed again.
 
User avatar
aemoreira1981
Posts: 3635
Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2017 12:17 am

Re: OAG Changes 8/25/2020:Cuts Begin for 21;DL DROPS NUMEROUS ROUTES INTL ROUTES FOR SUMMER 2021, Adds SEA-ONT,MSP-TVC

Wed Aug 26, 2020 3:11 am

I'm surprised that AA doesn't drop JFK-GEO (which should have been a MAX 8 route) and instead codeshare with B6 on the route.

As for DL, I would be surprised if MSP loses almost all of its long-haul long-term.
 
Lootess
Posts: 515
Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 6:15 am

Re: OAG Changes 8/25/2020:Cuts Begin for 21;DL DROPS NUMEROUS ROUTES INTL ROUTES FOR SUMMER 2021, Adds SEA-ONT,MSP-TVC

Wed Aug 26, 2020 3:30 am

enilria wrote:
SANFan wrote:
mxaxai wrote:
Regarding BA, I don't understand why they maintain 1x weekly service to many smaller destinations like AUS, MSY, BNA or SJC. Is the nonstop yield so good - even at such low frequencies - that they don't just route people through AA's hubs?

I think the ".1" frequency might be a bit misleading. Those October counts and service don't begin until 10/25 -- when the winter sked kicks in -- so in most cases, I think the Oct frequencies are only representing about a weeks worth of flights. Without looking at BA's flight skeds, my guess is that the ".1" translates to more like at least 2 weekly flights... Just my assumption. Enilria will need to confirm.

bb

I think you are correct. It is a partial month.
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
enilria wrote:
Agreed on the customer friendly-ness, just surprised they would not scoop up bookings by over-selling Summer 2021.


Probably to legitimize it with the various non-customer stakeholders that yes they are going to be much smaller next summer.
Those stakeholders knew there would be fewer aircraft with the announced 777 and 763 retirements.
This helps show why there will be furloughs and layoffs across various employee groups.
Its not just smoke and mirrors.
Releasing a schedule now helps give better certainty.

Also has implications with the JV partner flying that we will all see in the weeks/months ahead.

DL probably also doesn't want to unnecessarily start incurring potential refund exposure if they start taking bookings for flights/markets/routes they will not operate.

It's probably about CARES as is the AA announcement.
keithvh2001 wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
MSP-TVC has been flown seasonally for decades, and typically sees mainline in the summer months.
DL did not operate MSP-TVC in Covid Summer 2020, along with LGA-TVC, or ATL-TVC and connected everything through DTW.
Tourism was very strong still this summer in Northern Michigan, and it looks like they are bringing back MSP-TVC for the fall.


2 thoughts on TVC-MSP being added for October:

(1) There was one February in the early 2010s where I flew TVC-MSP (MSP as my destination, no connection) on Delta. It definitely hasn't always been year-around, but there was at least one winter it was around.

(2) Cape Air is starting MBL-ORD on October 1st. Only an 11-seat plane.

But, more interestingly, those flights will code share with American. Ludington and Manistee aren't the biggest places in the world, but it's fair to say they are part of TVC's catchment area. The American code-share means those folk don't necessarily need to make the 1 hour trip to GRR or MKG or TVC if they're flying west or south and need to connect anyway.

I wonder if Delta's add of TVC-MSP is partially a defensive move against that.

I think like the national parks, TVC is the type of place people feel safe to go to in COVID so it is seeing some longer seasons on flights.
klm617 wrote:
Lootess wrote:
I trust the Delta official press release of their winter/summer 21 schedule: https://news.delta.com/delta-brings-back-more-flights-across-atlantic-and-pacific-winter-and-summer-2021

ATL-DUS was an automotive industry route, name Mercedes-Benz. Just like ATL-STR but that one has more revenue, namely Mercedes and Porsche legs to stand on hence why that one is staying afloat during hard times.

DUS will return someday, Mercedes-Benz USA HQ is in ATL.


This is an a.net myth ATL-STR has nothing to do with automotive traffic it is just the icing on the cake. ATL-STR was started almost 40 years ago before those plants and HQs were even there. STR is all about military moving from the Southern US dtste to bases in Southern Germany.

The auto traffic is J. Military is Y. It's more than icing.


Bingo, two ironclad conditions for a route. Porsche, Bosch, Mercedes-Benz, and Daimler certainly make the route worthwhile while no other US carrier runs it.
 
FlyingElvii
Posts: 987
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: OAG Changes 8/25/2020:Cuts Begin for 21;DL DROPS NUMEROUS ROUTES INTL ROUTES FOR SUMMER 2021, Adds SEA-ONT,MSP-TVC

Wed Aug 26, 2020 4:41 am

mn2018 wrote:
Noticed DTW - BMI is coming back on October 1. Seems pretty surprising to add this route again in the middle of a pandemic. The huge Rivian auto plant starting up near BMI must be a big factor.

Look up THINK! In Elkhart.
I think this will end up as the same result, only they will spend more money getting there.
Have no idea what they are paying for the empty Mitsubishi plant, but it can’t be much.
 
MAH4546
Posts: 26286
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

Re: OAG Changes 8/25/2020:Cuts Begin for 21;DL DROPS NUMEROUS ROUTES INTL ROUTES FOR SUMMER 2021, Adds SEA-ONT,MSP-TVC

Wed Aug 26, 2020 4:55 am

Lootess wrote:
I trust the Delta official press release of their winter/summer 21 schedule: https://news.delta.com/delta-brings-back-more-flights-across-atlantic-and-pacific-winter-and-summer-2021

ATL-DUS was an automotive industry route, name Mercedes-Benz. Just like ATL-STR but that one has more revenue, namely Mercedes and Porsche legs to stand on hence why that one is staying afloat during hard times.

DUS will return someday, Mercedes-Benz USA HQ is in ATL.


Absolutely not.

Mercedes is in Stuttgart. Düsseldorf has no auto industry, it’s just junk yield traffic to Florida (which has nonstops) and California.

Besides that, the Stuttgart route is military traffic and predates Mercedes and Porsche’s southern operations.
a.
 
many321
Posts: 317
Joined: Sat Mar 11, 2017 6:15 am

Re: OAG Changes 8/25/2020:Cuts Begin for 21;DL DROPS NUMEROUS ROUTES INTL ROUTES FOR SUMMER 2021, Adds SEA-ONT,MSP-TVC

Wed Aug 26, 2020 5:18 am

Surprised to see UA trying LAX- SAL again after they pulled out more than a decade ago. Could this be due to their joint venture with Avianca?
 
DaCubbyBearBar
Posts: 124
Joined: Sat Apr 05, 2008 12:31 pm

Re: OAG Changes 8/25/2020:Cuts Begin for 21;DL DROPS NUMEROUS ROUTES INTL ROUTES FOR SUMMER 2021, Adds SEA-ONT,MSP-TVC

Wed Aug 26, 2020 11:08 am

ENILRIA....THANK YOU for all of your work!!! This was a pretty drastic change for WN, with October getting more than “a little off the top” cut. I have a feeling that AA and UA have more cuts coming soon also.
I am me and no one else...so my opinions are mine
 
User avatar
klm617
Posts: 5236
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: OAG Changes 8/25/2020:Cuts Begin for 21;DL DROPS NUMEROUS ROUTES INTL ROUTES FOR SUMMER 2021, Adds SEA-ONT,MSP-TVC

Wed Aug 26, 2020 1:14 pm

Looks like the new JFK adds to DFW, DTW and MSP aren't working out. Going from 2 daily to less than daily in less than 2 months is not a good sign.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
tphuang
Posts: 5440
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: OAG Changes 8/25/2020:Cuts Begin for 21;DL DROPS NUMEROUS ROUTES INTL ROUTES FOR SUMMER 2021, Adds SEA-ONT,MSP-TVC

Wed Aug 26, 2020 1:26 pm

klm617 wrote:
Looks like the new JFK adds to DFW, DTW and MSP aren't working out. Going from 2 daily to less than daily in less than 2 months is not a good sign.

they are making similar trims everywhere in their network. Demand is just not there right now out of NYC.
 
Nicknuzzii
Posts: 1300
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:57 pm

Re: OAG Changes 8/25/2020:Cuts Begin for 21;DL DROPS NUMEROUS ROUTES INTL ROUTES FOR SUMMER 2021, Adds SEA-ONT,MSP-TVC

Wed Aug 26, 2020 1:30 pm

tphuang wrote:
klm617 wrote:
Looks like the new JFK adds to DFW, DTW and MSP aren't working out. Going from 2 daily to less than daily in less than 2 months is not a good sign.

they are making similar trims everywhere in their network. Demand is just not there right now out of NYC.


Those routes were definitely cut the most though. For example EWR-LAX/SFO/LAS/PHX/AUS which were all intended to be at least 2x daily all see at least 4 weekly flights with most having more than that.
 
tphuang
Posts: 5440
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: OAG Changes 8/25/2020:Cuts Begin for 21;DL DROPS NUMEROUS ROUTES INTL ROUTES FOR SUMMER 2021, Adds SEA-ONT,MSP-TVC

Wed Aug 26, 2020 1:36 pm

Nicknuzzii wrote:
tphuang wrote:
klm617 wrote:
Looks like the new JFK adds to DFW, DTW and MSP aren't working out. Going from 2 daily to less than daily in less than 2 months is not a good sign.

they are making similar trims everywhere in their network. Demand is just not there right now out of NYC.


Those routes were definitely cut the most though. For example EWR-LAX/SFO/LAS/PHX/AUS which were all intended to be at least 2x daily all see at least 4 weekly flights with most having more than that.


Sure, they are trimming based on demand right now. And the demand simply isn't there from JFK to DFW/DTW/MSP. They've done a lot of deep cuts all throughout the network in september.
 
User avatar
ChrisNH38
Posts: 267
Joined: Fri Sep 06, 2019 10:53 pm

Re: OAG Changes 8/25/2020:Cuts Begin for 21;DL DROPS NUMEROUS ROUTES INTL ROUTES FOR SUMMER 2021, Adds SEA-ONT,MSP-TVC

Wed Aug 26, 2020 1:51 pm

I thought Hainan had departed BOS entirely.
https://my.flightradar24.com/ChrisNH
 
ericm2031
Posts: 1410
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2012 8:46 am

Re: OAG Changes 8/25/2020:Cuts Begin for 21;DL DROPS NUMEROUS ROUTES INTL ROUTES FOR SUMMER 2021, Adds SEA-ONT,MSP-TVC

Wed Aug 26, 2020 1:53 pm

many321 wrote:
Surprised to see UA trying LAX- SAL again after they pulled out more than a decade ago. Could this be due to their joint venture with Avianca?


It was running as cargo-only and was expanded to passengers as well. It has now been extended a couple of times, as well as LAX-GUA. UA and AV don’t have a JV (yet).
 
LAXdude1023
Posts: 6194
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:16 pm

Re: OAG Changes 8/25/2020:Cuts Begin for 21;DL DROPS NUMEROUS ROUTES INTL ROUTES FOR SUMMER 2021, Adds SEA-ONT,MSP-TVC

Wed Aug 26, 2020 2:03 pm

Three daily on IAH-SAP? Wow.
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD BRING BACK THE PAYWALL!!!!
 
acavpics
Posts: 453
Joined: Thu Dec 20, 2018 2:54 am

Re: OAG Changes 8/25/2020:Cuts Begin for 21;DL DROPS NUMEROUS ROUTES INTL ROUTES FOR SUMMER 2021, Adds SEA-ONT,MSP-TVC

Wed Aug 26, 2020 2:32 pm

So is ATL - PVG permanently gone? I don't see that route listed for next summer
 
jayunited
Posts: 3018
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:03 am

Re: OAG Changes 8/25/2020:Cuts Begin for 21;DL DROPS NUMEROUS ROUTES INTL ROUTES FOR SUMMER 2021, Adds SEA-ONT,MSP-TVC

Wed Aug 26, 2020 2:42 pm

DaCubbyBearBar wrote:
ENILRIA....THANK YOU for all of your work!!! This was a pretty drastic change for WN, with October getting more than “a little off the top” cut. I have a feeling that AA and UA have more cuts coming soon also.



I was thinking the exact same thing about B6's September cuts. Just a few months ago B6 was being praise by a lot of people on this cite when they announced their expansion plan, 30 new routes including multiple new routes and expansion of existing routes from EWR. Within weeks of making their announcement B6 started to quietly reduce their planned expansion.

I believe AA announced a lot of cuts in last weeks OAG thread. UA's announcement for October should be coming up fairly soon, I hoping to see a finalized October schedule by next weeks OAG thread.
 
kiowa
Posts: 776
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 12:37 am

Re: OAG Changes 8/25/2020:Cuts Begin for 21;DL DROPS NUMEROUS ROUTES INTL ROUTES FOR SUMMER 2021, Adds SEA-ONT,MSP-TVC

Wed Aug 26, 2020 2:42 pm

hiflyeras wrote:
These are massive cuts for every single carrier. It’s just mind-boggling...especially B6 and WN. The two with a lot of optimism seem to have hit a brick wall of reality. And poor Hawaii...yet another month of failure to relaunch.


All the Hawaii cut backs are certainly do to the continued lockdown by to Hawaii government. The state economy is taking a major hit from tourism. That is #1 or 2 for their economy with the military being the other if I remember correctly. A society does not last long when the only dollars coming in are from the government.
 
PBADC3
Posts: 16
Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2018 7:34 pm

Re: OAG Changes 8/25/2020:Cuts Begin for 21;DL DROPS NUMEROUS ROUTES INTL ROUTES FOR SUMMER 2021, Adds SEA-ONT,MSP-TVC

Wed Aug 26, 2020 3:39 pm

enilria wrote:
The DL intl cuts are so dramatic that while it is not too surprising given the staff reductions, I am a little surprised they would do them now. I almost wonder if they filed this schedule by mistake and will roll it back, but time will tell...


Remember that the IATA slot conference isn't until late November. This likely ties to their initial submission for S21 slots and preserves slots at airports where slots are challenging to get or move (think LHR). Other airports, given the overall slowdown, may have much greater flexibility in summer as carriers end up not filing their historics leaving slots open. Much can change. It certainly seems to reflect the current view from ATL, but like any schedule filed these days, shouldn't be viewed as etched in stone.
 
bkflyguy
Posts: 232
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:25 pm

Re: OAG Changes 8/25/2020:Cuts Begin for 21;DL DROPS NUMEROUS ROUTES INTL ROUTES FOR SUMMER 2021, Adds SEA-ONT,MSP-TVC

Wed Aug 26, 2020 5:07 pm

DTWLAX wrote:
It is surprising that DL cut off MSP completely from AMS, CDG and LHR until next summer. When was the last time (pre-Covid) MSP did not have a flight to AMS?


MSP is not one of the 15 airports approved for International Travelers/COVID-19 screening unless DHS updated/expanded the list of approved airports.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 8475
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: OAG Changes 8/25/2020:Cuts Begin for 21;DL DROPS NUMEROUS ROUTES INTL ROUTES FOR SUMMER 2021, Adds SEA-ONT,MSP-TVC

Wed Aug 26, 2020 5:24 pm

A Google search shows your count of 15 current from five days ago. No, it's not Delta failing to show unconditional love for MSP.

Effective for flights taking off at 11:59 PM EDT on Tuesday, May 26, 2020, Americans returning from all restricted countries will now be required to travel through the following 15 airports:

Boston-Logan International Airport (BOS), Massachusetts
Chicago O’Hare International Airport (ORD), Illinois
Dallas/Fort Worth International Airport (DFW), Texas
Detroit Metropolitan Airport (DTW), Michigan
Daniel K. Inouye International Airport (HNL), Hawaii
Fort Lauderdale-Hollywood International Airport (FLL), Florida
George Bush Intercontinental Airport (IAH), Texas
Hartsfield-Jackson Atlanta International Airport (ATL), Georgia
John F. Kennedy International Airport (JFK), New York
Los Angeles International Airport, (LAX), California
Miami International Airport (MIA), Florida
Newark Liberty International Airport (EWR), New Jersey
San Francisco International Airport (SFO), California
Seattle-Tacoma International Airport (SEA), Washington
Washington-Dulles International Airport (IAD), Virginia

https://www.dhs.gov/coronavirus/protect ... can-public
 
alfa164
Posts: 3705
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:47 am

Re: OAG Changes 8/25/2020:Cuts Begin for 21;DL DROPS NUMEROUS ROUTES INTL ROUTES FOR SUMMER 2021, Adds SEA-ONT,MSP-TVC

Wed Aug 26, 2020 5:38 pm

MAH4546 wrote:
Lootess wrote:
I trust the Delta official press release of their winter/summer 21 schedule: https://news.delta.com/delta-brings-back-more-flights-across-atlantic-and-pacific-winter-and-summer-2021

ATL-DUS was an automotive industry route, name Mercedes-Benz. Just like ATL-STR but that one has more revenue, namely Mercedes and Porsche legs to stand on hence why that one is staying afloat during hard times. DUS will return someday, Mercedes-Benz USA HQ is in ATL.


Absolutely not. Mercedes is in Stuttgart. Düsseldorf has no auto industry, it’s just junk yield traffic to Florida (which has nonstops) and California. Besides that, the Stuttgart route is military traffic and predates Mercedes and Porsche’s southern operations.


Dusseldorf is home to Mercedes largest van factory in Europe; Charleston, South Carolina, is home to their largest plant in the USA. There is traffic between the two, albeit not at the same level as traffic to Stuttgart.
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
kavok
Posts: 848
Joined: Wed May 11, 2016 10:12 pm

Re: OAG Changes 8/25/2020:Cuts Begin for 21;DL DROPS NUMEROUS ROUTES INTL ROUTES FOR SUMMER 2021, Adds SEA-ONT,MSP-TVC

Wed Aug 26, 2020 5:42 pm

klm617 wrote:
DL BMI-DTW OCT 0>1.0[0] NOV 0>0.2[0]

WOW DTW picks up BMI nonstops this hasn't been served in eons.


I thought this was an interesting add as well. It makes sense geographically, and an easy route for an RJ. Just the timing of adding it during Covid seemed strange. But good for DL.

And thanks to Enilria for all your hard work again.
 
User avatar
klm617
Posts: 5236
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: OAG Changes 8/25/2020:Cuts Begin for 21;DL DROPS NUMEROUS ROUTES INTL ROUTES FOR SUMMER 2021, Adds SEA-ONT,MSP-TVC

Wed Aug 26, 2020 6:08 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
A Google search shows your count of 15 current from five days ago. No, it's not Delta failing to show unconditional love for MSP.

Effective for flights taking off at 11:59 PM EDT on Tuesday, May 26, 2020, Americans returning from all restricted countries will now be required to travel through the following 15 airports:

Boston-Logan International Airport (BOS), Massachusetts
Chicago O’Hare International Airport (ORD), Illinois
Dallas/Fort Worth International Airport (DFW), Texas
Detroit Metropolitan Airport (DTW), Michigan
Daniel K. Inouye International Airport (HNL), Hawaii
Fort Lauderdale-Hollywood International Airport (FLL), Florida
George Bush Intercontinental Airport (IAH), Texas
Hartsfield-Jackson Atlanta International Airport (ATL), Georgia
John F. Kennedy International Airport (JFK), New York
Los Angeles International Airport, (LAX), California
Miami International Airport (MIA), Florida
Newark Liberty International Airport (EWR), New Jersey
San Francisco International Airport (SFO), California
Seattle-Tacoma International Airport (SEA), Washington
Washington-Dulles International Airport (IAD), Virginia

https://www.dhs.gov/coronavirus/protect ... can-public


And if everything goes according to plan MSP is going to fair pretty well it only stands to loose 2 flights one to AMS and one to KEF next summer. Not bad considering. What I have found interesting is with MIA so close why would FLL get clearance verse another city which could have served the traveling public better.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
rjbesikof
Posts: 94
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2020 4:21 am

Re: OAG Changes 8/25/2020:Cuts Begin for 21;DL DROPS NUMEROUS ROUTES INTL ROUTES FOR SUMMER 2021, Adds SEA-ONT,MSP-TVC

Wed Aug 26, 2020 6:17 pm

klm617 wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
A Google search shows your count of 15 current from five days ago. No, it's not Delta failing to show unconditional love for MSP.

Effective for flights taking off at 11:59 PM EDT on Tuesday, May 26, 2020, Americans returning from all restricted countries will now be required to travel through the following 15 airports:

Boston-Logan International Airport (BOS), Massachusetts
Chicago O’Hare International Airport (ORD), Illinois
Dallas/Fort Worth International Airport (DFW), Texas
Detroit Metropolitan Airport (DTW), Michigan
Daniel K. Inouye International Airport (HNL), Hawaii
Fort Lauderdale-Hollywood International Airport (FLL), Florida
George Bush Intercontinental Airport (IAH), Texas
Hartsfield-Jackson Atlanta International Airport (ATL), Georgia
John F. Kennedy International Airport (JFK), New York
Los Angeles International Airport, (LAX), California
Miami International Airport (MIA), Florida
Newark Liberty International Airport (EWR), New Jersey
San Francisco International Airport (SFO), California
Seattle-Tacoma International Airport (SEA), Washington
Washington-Dulles International Airport (IAD), Virginia

https://www.dhs.gov/coronavirus/protect ... can-public


And if everything goes according to plan MSP is going to fair pretty well it only stands to loose 2 flights one to AMS and one to KEF next summer. Not bad considering. What I have found interesting is with MIA so close why would FLL get clearance verse another city which could have served the traveling public better.


When will the list get updated of what airports can take certain flights?
 
FCOTSTW
Posts: 231
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2018 8:14 pm

Re: OAG Changes 8/25/2020:Cuts Begin for 21;DL DROPS NUMEROUS ROUTES INTL ROUTES FOR SUMMER 2021, Adds SEA-ONT,MSP-TVC

Wed Aug 26, 2020 8:39 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
MSP-TVC has been flown seasonally for decades, and typically sees mainline in the summer months.
DL did not operate MSP-TVC in Covid Summer 2020, along with LGA-TVC, or ATL-TVC and connected everything through DTW.
Tourism was very strong still this summer in Northern Michigan, and it looks like they are bringing back MSP-TVC for the fall.


It is was. My TVC hotel was fully booked in mid-August and streets are packed. Lots of people (me included) staying in-state.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
Posts: 8231
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 11:45 am

Re: OAG Changes 8/25/2020:Cuts Begin for 21;DL DROPS NUMEROUS ROUTES INTL ROUTES FOR SUMMER 2021, Adds SEA-ONT,MSP-TVC

Wed Aug 26, 2020 8:47 pm

TVC, well really the greater Grand Traverse and Little Traverse Bay region has been nearly as busy as ever this summer.
Some stats I saw said that tourism this summer is only down 20-30% versus the national average of 50%+ and a lot of that was really in the month of June. July and August have been as busy as ever despite the lack of the big festivals and large-crowd events. July set a record for visitors at Sleeping Bear Dunes National LakeShore. The Mackinac Bridge crossings for August are only down about 3% this year.

Granted, a the majority of tourism is obviously regional in nature and the majority is driving from the midwest. Its been a weird summer up north. There are those family vacation in some of the old resorter communities that were never opened-up for the season for whatever reason, but that is more the exception for the norm. There is a a severe labor shortage, again for a variety of reasons, and many of the hotels, restaurants, and shops have struggled to be able to staff this summer (the increased unemployment benefits, lack of H-2s, and fear of the virus).

Northern Michigan, like many of the mountain west and/or national park gateways like JAC, BZN, ASE, have become havens for COVID asylum seekers. Many escapees from Chicago and big East Coast cities spending their summer away from the city.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
Posts: 8231
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 11:45 am

Re: OAG Changes 8/25/2020:Cuts Begin for 21;DL DROPS NUMEROUS ROUTES INTL ROUTES FOR SUMMER 2021, Adds SEA-ONT,MSP-TVC

Wed Aug 26, 2020 8:55 pm

kavok wrote:
klm617 wrote:
DL BMI-DTW OCT 0>1.0[0] NOV 0>0.2[0]

WOW DTW picks up BMI nonstops this hasn't been served in eons.


I thought this was an interesting add as well. It makes sense geographically, and an easy route for an RJ. Just the timing of adding it during Covid seemed strange. But good for DL.

And thanks to Enilria for all your hard work again.

Yeah interesting to see the reorg and what is actually flying throughout Central Illinois.

DL suspended all service to PIA in July. PIA recently had ATL & MSP service, and DTW had been dropped prior long before COVID/
AA is plannng to suspend service in Oct to SPI
DL (and NW) had previously pulled-out of SPI, CMI.

DL at BMI had primarily been to ATL (did they have MSP, I can't remember), but hasn't seen DTW service since I think the Saabs were retired.

As it is right now, the only service at BMI is DL to ATL and AA to DFW. No good connectivity to the Northeast. For now, DL is operating 2 CR9s to ATL and the DTW CR2 addition in October.
Based on the flight number range, this looks like its an at-risk/pro-rate flight operated by OO/Skywest, not part of the capacity purchase agreement.
 
MAH4546
Posts: 26286
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

Re: OAG Changes 8/25/2020:Cuts Begin for 21;DL DROPS NUMEROUS ROUTES INTL ROUTES FOR SUMMER 2021, Adds SEA-ONT,MSP-TVC

Wed Aug 26, 2020 9:05 pm

alfa164 wrote:
MAH4546 wrote:
Lootess wrote:
I trust the Delta official press release of their winter/summer 21 schedule: https://news.delta.com/delta-brings-back-more-flights-across-atlantic-and-pacific-winter-and-summer-2021

ATL-DUS was an automotive industry route, name Mercedes-Benz. Just like ATL-STR but that one has more revenue, namely Mercedes and Porsche legs to stand on hence why that one is staying afloat during hard times. DUS will return someday, Mercedes-Benz USA HQ is in ATL.


Absolutely not. Mercedes is in Stuttgart. Düsseldorf has no auto industry, it’s just junk yield traffic to Florida (which has nonstops) and California. Besides that, the Stuttgart route is military traffic and predates Mercedes and Porsche’s southern operations.


Dusseldorf is home to Mercedes largest van factory in Europe; Charleston, South Carolina, is home to their largest plant in the USA. There is traffic between the two, albeit not at the same level as traffic to Stuttgart.


Yeah like maybe one person every other day. And that's an optimistic estimate.
a.
 
MAH4546
Posts: 26286
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

Re: OAG Changes 8/25/2020:Cuts Begin for 21;DL DROPS NUMEROUS ROUTES INTL ROUTES FOR SUMMER 2021, Adds SEA-ONT,MSP-TVC

Wed Aug 26, 2020 9:06 pm

klm617 wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
A Google search shows your count of 15 current from five days ago. No, it's not Delta failing to show unconditional love for MSP.

Effective for flights taking off at 11:59 PM EDT on Tuesday, May 26, 2020, Americans returning from all restricted countries will now be required to travel through the following 15 airports:

Boston-Logan International Airport (BOS), Massachusetts
Chicago O’Hare International Airport (ORD), Illinois
Dallas/Fort Worth International Airport (DFW), Texas
Detroit Metropolitan Airport (DTW), Michigan
Daniel K. Inouye International Airport (HNL), Hawaii
Fort Lauderdale-Hollywood International Airport (FLL), Florida
George Bush Intercontinental Airport (IAH), Texas
Hartsfield-Jackson Atlanta International Airport (ATL), Georgia
John F. Kennedy International Airport (JFK), New York
Los Angeles International Airport, (LAX), California
Miami International Airport (MIA), Florida
Newark Liberty International Airport (EWR), New Jersey
San Francisco International Airport (SFO), California
Seattle-Tacoma International Airport (SEA), Washington
Washington-Dulles International Airport (IAD), Virginia

https://www.dhs.gov/coronavirus/protect ... can-public


And if everything goes according to plan MSP is going to fair pretty well it only stands to loose 2 flights one to AMS and one to KEF next summer. Not bad considering. What I have found interesting is with MIA so close why would FLL get clearance verse another city which could have served the traveling public better.


FLL is one of the largest international gateways in the country. More international traffic than Dallas, Denver, Detroit, etc.
a.
 
User avatar
klm617
Posts: 5236
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: OAG Changes 8/25/2020:Cuts Begin for 21;DL DROPS NUMEROUS ROUTES INTL ROUTES FOR SUMMER 2021, Adds SEA-ONT,MSP-TVC

Wed Aug 26, 2020 9:21 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
kavok wrote:
klm617 wrote:
DL BMI-DTW OCT 0>1.0[0] NOV 0>0.2[0]

WOW DTW picks up BMI nonstops this hasn't been served in eons.


I thought this was an interesting add as well. It makes sense geographically, and an easy route for an RJ. Just the timing of adding it during Covid seemed strange. But good for DL.

And thanks to Enilria for all your hard work again.

Yeah interesting to see the reorg and what is actually flying throughout Central Illinois.

DL suspended all service to PIA in July. PIA recently had ATL & MSP service, and DTW had been dropped prior long before COVID/
AA is plannng to suspend service in Oct to SPI
DL (and NW) had previously pulled-out of SPI, CMI.

DL at BMI had primarily been to ATL (did they have MSP, I can't remember), but hasn't seen DTW service since I think the Saabs were retired.

As it is right now, the only service at BMI is DL to ATL and AA to DFW. No good connectivity to the Northeast. For now, DL is operating 2 CR9s to ATL and the DTW CR2 addition in October.
Based on the flight number range, this looks like its an at-risk/pro-rate flight operated by OO/Skywest, not part of the capacity purchase agreement.


Also of note is that DL is operating CWA-DTW as well.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
Ishrion
Posts: 3044
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2019 6:17 am

Re: OAG Changes 8/25/2020:Cuts Begin for 21;DL DROPS NUMEROUS ROUTES INTL ROUTES FOR SUMMER 2021, Adds SEA-ONT,MSP-TVC

Wed Aug 26, 2020 9:23 pm

MAH4546 wrote:
klm617 wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
A Google search shows your count of 15 current from five days ago. No, it's not Delta failing to show unconditional love for MSP.

Effective for flights taking off at 11:59 PM EDT on Tuesday, May 26, 2020, Americans returning from all restricted countries will now be required to travel through the following 15 airports:

Boston-Logan International Airport (BOS), Massachusetts
Chicago O’Hare International Airport (ORD), Illinois
Dallas/Fort Worth International Airport (DFW), Texas
Detroit Metropolitan Airport (DTW), Michigan
Daniel K. Inouye International Airport (HNL), Hawaii
Fort Lauderdale-Hollywood International Airport (FLL), Florida
George Bush Intercontinental Airport (IAH), Texas
Hartsfield-Jackson Atlanta International Airport (ATL), Georgia
John F. Kennedy International Airport (JFK), New York
Los Angeles International Airport, (LAX), California
Miami International Airport (MIA), Florida
Newark Liberty International Airport (EWR), New Jersey
San Francisco International Airport (SFO), California
Seattle-Tacoma International Airport (SEA), Washington
Washington-Dulles International Airport (IAD), Virginia

https://www.dhs.gov/coronavirus/protect ... can-public


And if everything goes according to plan MSP is going to fair pretty well it only stands to loose 2 flights one to AMS and one to KEF next summer. Not bad considering. What I have found interesting is with MIA so close why would FLL get clearance verse another city which could have served the traveling public better.


FLL is one of the largest international gateways in the country. More international traffic than Dallas, Denver, Detroit, etc.


Not sure how accurate this is, but FLL’s international passenger count in 2019 was a bit below DFW but higher than BOS, DTW, HNL, SEA, and IAD: https://www.statista.com/statistics/639 ... r-traffic/
 
slcdeltarumd11
Posts: 4843
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2004 7:30 am

Re: OAG Changes 8/25/2020:Cuts Begin for 21;DL DROPS NUMEROUS ROUTES INTL ROUTES FOR SUMMER 2021, Adds SEA-ONT,MSP-TVC

Wed Aug 26, 2020 9:23 pm

Delta is smarter to start small and add routes if demand increases. I don't really see a surge until we get some real changes so this is a smart move imho. Logistically too much time and payroll hours needed to reschedule millions of rebookings ,cancellations and refunds. This saves them money to go small and add later IF needed.

Yeah SLC is back to daily CDG and AMS next summer. Hubs focus is the strategy. So delta had some errors in that release. Not a big deal no one is booking next summer right now. LHR I guess won't be enforcing slot useage next summer, delta has alot of LHR slots not being used . I mean I guess how can they force them all to be used demand might not be there.
 
TWA902fly
Posts: 3134
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 1999 5:47 am

Re: OAG Changes 8/25/2020:Cuts Begin for 21;DL DROPS NUMEROUS ROUTES INTL ROUTES FOR SUMMER 2021, Adds SEA-ONT,MSP-TVC

Wed Aug 26, 2020 9:46 pm

DTWLAX wrote:
It is surprising that DL cut off MSP completely from AMS, CDG and LHR until next summer. When was the last time (pre-Covid) MSP did not have a flight to AMS?


Is KLM going to fly a summer-seasonal AMS-MSP perhaps?

'902
life wasn't worth the balance, or the crumpled paper it was written on
 
DylanHarvey
Posts: 418
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2018 5:45 pm

Re: OAG Changes 8/25/2020:Cuts Begin for 21;DL DROPS NUMEROUS ROUTES INTL ROUTES FOR SUMMER 2021, Adds SEA-ONT,MSP-TVC

Wed Aug 26, 2020 9:58 pm

I'm optimistic about JNB, but obviously thats dependent if they let Americans in. SA is doing quite well in handling this. Obviously business demand is way down which doesn't help, CPT is leisure, but leisure travel isn't popping now either. I'm hoping December or January it will come back.
 
User avatar
klm617
Posts: 5236
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: OAG Changes 8/25/2020:Cuts Begin for 21;DL DROPS NUMEROUS ROUTES INTL ROUTES FOR SUMMER 2021, Adds SEA-ONT,MSP-TVC

Wed Aug 26, 2020 10:10 pm

FCOTSTW wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
MSP-TVC has been flown seasonally for decades, and typically sees mainline in the summer months.
DL did not operate MSP-TVC in Covid Summer 2020, along with LGA-TVC, or ATL-TVC and connected everything through DTW.
Tourism was very strong still this summer in Northern Michigan, and it looks like they are bringing back MSP-TVC for the fall.


It is was. My TVC hotel was fully booked in mid-August and streets are packed. Lots of people (me included) staying in-state.


Yes for me the score is the same TVC 2 FRA 0.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
SurfandSnow
Posts: 1591
Joined: Sun Feb 01, 2009 7:09 am

Re: OAG Changes 8/25/2020:Cuts Begin for 21;DL DROPS NUMEROUS ROUTES INTL ROUTES FOR SUMMER 2021, Adds SEA-ONT,MSP-TVC

Wed Aug 26, 2020 10:21 pm

enilria wrote:
AA CLT-STT NOV 1.0>1.4[0.4] DEC 1.0>1.5[0.6] JAN 1.0>2.0[0.9] FEB 1.0>2.0[0.9] MAR 1.0>2.0[1.0]
*AA CLT-STX JAN 0.3>1.0[0.3] FEB 0.1>1.0[0.2] MAR 0.1>1.0[0.1]
*AA DFW-STT DEC 0.1>0.6[0.1] JAN 0.2>1.0[0.1] FEB 0.1>1.0[0.2] MAR 0.1>1.0[0.1]


Wonderful to see both AA stations in the U.S. Virgin Islands getting more flights! Then again, any change in entry requirements for tourists from the U.S. mainland could doom these services. Still, it's nice to see at least some airports seemingly doing better now than they did before the pandemic...

enilria wrote:
UA adds SAL flights and AA cuts. Tells me there are incentives involved.
**AA DFW-SAL NOV 0.6>0.1[0] DEC 0.7>0[0.4] JAN 0.7>0[0.6] FEB 0.6>0[0.6] MAR 0.5>0[0.6] APR 0.6>0[0] MAY 0.6>0[0]


Well.. aren't many of AA's DFW-Latin America (and for that matter, DFW-Caribbean) flights an on-again, off-again exercise? IIRC this route has come and gone quite a bit over the years. This one in particular always seem to suddenly reappear when AA's finances improve and then quickly vanish when the airline's fortunes decline...

enilria wrote:
AA GEO-JFK NOV 1.0>0.1[0] DEC 1.0>0.5[0.5]


Aren't AA and B6 friendly now? Is there really reason for both carriers to continue to fly this rather obscure route?!? Seeing as how the route was a failure for DL, I would be shocked if 2 carriers can now survive on it...

enilria wrote:
**AA PVG-SEA APR 0>1.0[0] MAY 0>1.0[0] JUN 0>1.0[0]


Looks like AA is still quite serious about trying to make SEA work. DL certainly doesn't appear to be backing down in the Seattle market either. It will be very interesting to see what happens there!

enilria wrote:
**DL AMS-MCO APR 1.0>0[0.9] MAY 1.0>0[0] JUN 1.0>0[0]
**DL AMS-TPA APR 0.7>0[0.4] MAY 1.0>0[0] JUN 1.0>0[0]


It always struck me as odd that DL was operating these flights. Aren't these routes, which presumably cater to Dutch tourists rather than American travelers, much better served by KL?

enilria wrote:
**DL ASE-ATL DEC 0.4>0[0.4] JAN 1.0>0[1.0] FEB 1.0>0[1.0] MAR 0.9>0[0.9]
**DL ASE-LAX DEC 0.7>0[0.6] JAN 1.1>0[1.2] FEB 1.0>0[1.0] MAR 0.9>0[0.9]

*DL ATL-MTJ DEC 0.4>0[0.3] JAN 0.2>0[0.3]


So is DL completely calling it quits in the Aspen and Montrose/Telluride markets this upcoming ski season? IIRC DL recently cut all service to HDN. Are any DL flights still planned for EGE?

enilria wrote:
This looks gone long term
**DL ATL-BRU NOV 0.6>0[0.5] DEC 0.3>0[0.3] JAN 0.5>0[0.3] FEB 0.6>0[0.5] MAR 0.6>0[0.5] APR 1.0>0[0.5] MAY 1.0>0[0] JUN 1.0>0[0]


I'd stick this in the same category as AA's DFW-SAL service. It may be gone for now, but will probably return in a few years when things improve. After all, Brussels is the capital of the European Union. Unless things change, it will only become more and more important/relevant!

enilria wrote:
This looks gone long term
**DL ATL-DUS OCT 0.2>0[0.9] NOV 0.7>0[0.7] DEC 0.6>0[0.6] JAN 0.7>0[0.7] FEB 0.7>0[0.7] MAR 0.7>0[0.7] APR 1.0>0[0.6] MAY 1.0>0[0] JUN 1.0>0[0]


This route, however, probably is gone for good. I wonder if UA would ever consider returning to the DUS market. They used to fly ORD-DUS, but EWR-DUS would probably be better bet these days. Or perhaps AA could pull off CLT-DUS if Rhine-Ruhr travelers will truly miss the easy access to Florida, other popular U.S. destinations, and the Caribbean?

enilria wrote:
This also looks gone long term
**DL ATL-KIN NOV 1.0>0.1[1.0] DEC 1.0>0[1.0] JAN 1.0>0[1.0] FEB 1.0>0[1.0] MAR 1.0>0[1.0] APR 1.0>0[1.0] MAY 1.0>0[0.4] JUN 1.0>0[0.4]


Seems like DL is finally calling it quits on the VFR markets from ATL. IIRC PAP was the first to go, and much more recently HAV and TGU were cut. A much more leisure traveler focused ATL-Caribbean operation, akin to what AA offers at CLT, is probably the best thing DL could do at ATL for now. DL can always serve VFR markets like this from JFK, perhaps even South Florida and/or Central Florida. O&D between Atlanta and places like Kingston, Port-au-Prince and Tegucigalpa must be atrocious!

enilria wrote:
I'm kinda surprised to see this one gone long term
**DL ATL-LIR NOV 1.1>0.1[1.0] DEC 1.5>0[1.4] JAN 2>0[2] FEB 2>0[2] MAR 2>0[2] APR 1.0>0[0.7] MAY 1.0>0[0.4] JUN 1.0>0[0.1]

So odd it operates in NOV and then gone. I assume there are bookings that might show up?
**DL ATL-SJO NOV 1.3>0.1[2] DEC 2>0[2] JAN 2>0[2] FEB 2>0[2] MAR 2>0[2] APR 2>0[1.7] MAY 2>0[0.5] JUN 2>0[0.2]

**DL LAX-SJO NOV 0.3>0[0.9] DEC 1.0>0[1.0] JAN 1.0>0[1.0] FEB 1.0>0[1.0] MAR 1.0>0[1.0] APR 1.0>0[0.5] MAY 1.0>0[0.6] JUN 1.0>0[0]


By far the most shocking move by DL this week. Even if this is somehow a mistake, or perhaps a strong message to the Costa Rican government that recently decided only to let in American tourists from a handful of Northeastern states, it could be an opportunity for competition to jump on these routes. Shockingly enough, WN has made some fairly bold moves in ATL lately - and this week's report seems to indicate a strong UA interest in the LAX-Central America realm once again. Those carriers, or even somebody like B6, F9 or NK, could see this as an opportunity to jump on these routes...

enilria wrote:
Looks long term gone
**DL ATL-PVG OCT 0.2>0[0.9] NOV 1.0>0[0.9] DEC 1.0>0[0.8] JAN 1.0>0[0.8] FEB 1.0>0[0.9] MAR 1.0>0[0] APR 1.0>0[0] MAY 1.0>0[0] JUN 1.0>0[0]


This route's prospects were dubious even before the pandemic. I'm sure getting DTW/LAX/SEA-PVG going again will be challenging enough for DL as it is. I'm a little surprised LAX-PVG came back, but I suppose AA quickly throwing in the towel on that route helped DL and UA...

enilria wrote:
**DL BER-JFK MAY 1.0>0[0] JUN 1.0>0[0]


Another route that DL has cut and resumed before. It will probably be back in a few years.

enilria wrote:
**DL BOM-JFK DEC 0.7>0[0.3] JAN 1.0>0[1.0] FEB 1.0>0[1.0] MAR 1.0>0[1.0] APR 1.0>0[0.5] MAY 1.0>0[0] JUN 1.0>0[0]


This one, like ATL-PVG, seemed to be quite a risky venture even in a good economy. No surprise to see it cut.

enilria wrote:
**DL BOS-EDI MAY 1.0>0[0] JUN 1.0>0[0]
**DL BOS-FCO JUN 1.0>0[0]
**DL BOS-LIS MAY 1.0>0[0] JUN 1.0>0[0]


It isn't surprising to see the secondary European destinations cut from BOS, though I wonder if DL will ever give these another try in the future. They don't seem to be completely giving up on the BOS market!

enilria wrote:
*DL CDG-CVG OCT 0.2>0[0.9] NOV 0.6>0[0.7] DEC 0.6>0[0.6] JAN 0.7>0[0.7] FEB 0.7>0[0.7] MAR 0.7>0.1[0.7] APR 1.0>0.6[0.6] MAY 1.0>0.6[0] JUN 1.0>0.6[0]
**DL CDG-IND APR 0.7>0[0.5] MAY 0.8>0[0] JUN 1.0>0[0]
*DL CDG-LAX OCT 0.2>0[1.0] NOV 0.7>0[0.8] DEC 0.8>0[0.7] JAN 0.6>0[0.6] FEB 0.6>0[0.6] MAR 0.7>0.2[0.7]
*DL CDG-RDU OCT 0.2>0[0.9] NOV 0.6>0[0.7] DEC 0.6>0[0.6] JAN 0.7>0[0.7] FEB 0.7>0[0.7] MAR 0.7>0.1[0.7] APR 1.0>0.7[0.6] MAY 1.0>0.7[0] JUN 1.0>0.7[0]


Wow, I thought all 4 of these routes would be goners. Pleasantly surprised to see that only IND-CDG got cut!

enilria wrote:
*DL CPH-JFK MAY 0.4>0[0] JUN 1.0>0[0]


I thought this might have been much easier with Norwegian having called it quits.. but I guess not?

enilria wrote:
**DL DTW-PKX OCT 0.2>0[0] NOV 1.0>0[0] DEC 1.0>0[0] JAN 1.0>0[0] FEB 1.0>0[0] MAR 1.0>0[0] APR 1.0>0[0] MAY 1.0>0[0] JUN 1.0>0[0]


Demand to Beijing seems to be way down, what with all U.S. carrier flights to China operating to PVG these days. I assume DL intends only to serve Beijing via SEA? It will be interesting to see how AA and UA decide to serve PEK, if at all...

enilria wrote:
**DL HNL-KIX OCT 0.3>0[0.9] NOV 1.0>0[1.0] DEC 1.0>0[1.1] JAN 1.0>0[1.1] FEB 1.0>0[0.9] MAR 1.0>0[1.0] APR 1.0>0[0.1] MAY 1.0>0[0] JUN 1.0>0[0]
**DL HNL-NGO OCT 0.2>0[0.7] NOV 0.7>0[0.7] DEC 0.8>0[0.8] JAN 0.8>0[0.7] FEB 0.7>0[0.7] MAR 0.7>0[0.7] APR 0.7>0[0.0] MAY 0.7>0[0] JUN 1.0>0[0]
DL KIX-SEA APR 1.0>0[0] MAY 1.0>0[0] JUN 1.0>0[0]


I'm surprised these routes weren't cut sooner!

enilria wrote:
**DL JFK-STT SEP 0.7>0[0.1] NOV 0.9>0.2[0.3] DEC 0.5>0[0.7] JAN 1.0>0[0.9] FEB 1.0>0[0.9] MAR 1.0>0[0.9] APR 1.0>0[1.0] MAY 1.0>0[0] JUN 1.0>0[0]


I realize B6 just started this route.. but isn't the U.S. Virgin Islands going to be one of the easier markets to serve these days? American travelers just don't have many options available to them these days...

enilria wrote:
**DL LHR-PDX APR 0.2>0[0.2] MAY 1.0>0[0] JUN 1.0>0[0]
**DL LHR-SLC OCT 0.3>0[0.6] NOV 1.0>0[0] DEC 0.9>0[0.3] JAN 0.9>0[0.9] FEB 0.9>0[0.9] MAR 0.9>0[1.0] APR 1.0>0[0.9] MAY 1.0>0[0] JUN 1.0>0[0]


I'm guessing DL doesn't have to make use of these two LHR slots anytime soon.. still pretty surprising to see DL's LHR operations reduced to just ATL/BOS/DTW/JFK/MSP though.

enilria wrote:
**DL ONT-SEA OCT 0>2[0] NOV 0>0.5[0]


More good news from ONT lately. Of all the airports to do well in the pandemic...the last one I expected would be ONT!

enilria wrote:
**UA GUA-LAX APR 0>1.0[0] MAY 0>1.0[0] JUN 0>1.0[0]
**UA LAX-SAL APR 0>1.0[0] MAY 0>1.0[0] JUN 0>1.0[0]


I was wondering if UA would ever give LAX-Central America another try! Great to see these routes come back.

enilria wrote:
UA ITO-LAX SEP 0.4>0.2[0.7]


Very impressive to see that this route continues to operate. UA's LAX operation seems to be doing far better than I thought it would!
Flying in the middle seat of coach is much better than not flying at all!
 
winginit
Posts: 3042
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:23 pm

Re: OAG Changes 8/25/2020:Cuts Begin for 21;DL DROPS NUMEROUS ROUTES INTL ROUTES FOR SUMMER 2021, Adds SEA-ONT,MSP-TVC

Wed Aug 26, 2020 10:22 pm

klm617 wrote:
Lootess wrote:
I trust the Delta official press release of their winter/summer 21 schedule: https://news.delta.com/delta-brings-back-more-flights-across-atlantic-and-pacific-winter-and-summer-2021

ATL-DUS was an automotive industry route, name Mercedes-Benz. Just like ATL-STR but that one has more revenue, namely Mercedes and Porsche legs to stand on hence why that one is staying afloat during hard times.

DUS will return someday, Mercedes-Benz USA HQ is in ATL.


This is an a.net myth ATL-STR has nothing to do with automotive traffic it is just the icing on the cake. ATL-STR was started almost 40 years ago before those plants and HQs were even there. STR is all about military moving from the Southern US dtste to bases in Southern Germany.


Complete nonsense. Upwards of $30M+ per year in Corporate revenue, a huge chunk of it automotive (Daimler, VW) flows from the U.S. to STR, and it's the backbone of that route given it's front cabin. As was mentioned, military is low margin and 95%+ economy class.
 
TW870
Posts: 1244
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:01 am

Re: OAG Changes 8/25/2020:Cuts Begin for 21;DL DROPS NUMEROUS ROUTES INTL ROUTES FOR SUMMER 2021, Adds SEA-ONT,MSP-TVC

Wed Aug 26, 2020 11:51 pm

Enilria - thank you as always for the hard work.

I have two thoughts about the DL summer 2021 cuts.

1. This is a benchmark for logistics and labor power planning, period. If vaccine trials go better than expected, I think you could see a good number of adds in addition to what is in the press release. With slow vaccine progress, and unless community spread goes way down in countries where it is high now, the schedule will be far smaller, and look much more like summer 2020 than what is in the press release. The borders absolutely have to be open for the schedule anything close to what they put in the press release, and that requires that public health measures are more successful - especially in the US.

2. I think the cancelled boutique summer flying will hold in all cases. JFK-CPH, BER, etc., require high end travel demand. Even if the epidemic comes under control, the economy will take longer to recover, and folks aren;t going to be able to drop $5K to go on vacay in DeltaOne if their businesses are still shaky.
 
User avatar
enilria
Topic Author
Posts: 10297
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:15 pm

Re: OAG Changes 8/25/2020:Cuts Begin for 21;DL DROPS NUMEROUS ROUTES INTL ROUTES FOR SUMMER 2021, Adds SEA-ONT,MSP-TVC

Thu Aug 27, 2020 1:33 pm

DaCubbyBearBar wrote:
ENILRIA....THANK YOU for all of your work!!! This was a pretty drastic change for WN, with October getting more than “a little off the top” cut. I have a feeling that AA and UA have more cuts coming soon also.

:)
kavok wrote:
klm617 wrote:
DL BMI-DTW OCT 0>1.0[0] NOV 0>0.2[0]

WOW DTW picks up BMI nonstops this hasn't been served in eons.


I thought this was an interesting add as well. It makes sense geographically, and an easy route for an RJ. Just the timing of adding it during Covid seemed strange. But good for DL.

And thanks to Enilria for all your hard work again.

:)
Ishrion wrote:
MAH4546 wrote:
klm617 wrote:

And if everything goes according to plan MSP is going to fair pretty well it only stands to loose 2 flights one to AMS and one to KEF next summer. Not bad considering. What I have found interesting is with MIA so close why would FLL get clearance verse another city which could have served the traveling public better.


FLL is one of the largest international gateways in the country. More international traffic than Dallas, Denver, Detroit, etc.


Not sure how accurate this is, but FLL’s international passenger count in 2019 was a bit below DFW but higher than BOS, DTW, HNL, SEA, and IAD: https://www.statista.com/statistics/639 ... r-traffic/

The initial list was created based solely on China flights and then was adapted to the new entry restrictions.
SurfandSnow wrote:
So is DL completely calling it quits in the Aspen and Montrose/Telluride markets this upcoming ski season? IIRC DL recently cut all service to HDN. Are any DL flights still planned for EGE?

I haven't followed what the resorts are doing, but I would have assumed demand would be similar to the National Park spike of the Summer. Perhaps the ski resorts said they aren't opening? I'm sure the slopes are open.
SurfandSnow wrote:
Demand to Beijing seems to be way down, what with all U.S. carrier flights to China operating to PVG these days. I assume DL intends only to serve Beijing via SEA? It will be interesting to see how AA and UA decide to serve PEK, if at all...

PVG is always where the yield was
SurfandSnow wrote:
I realize B6 just started this route.. but isn't the U.S. Virgin Islands going to be one of the easier markets to serve these days? American travelers just don't have many options available to them these days...

It's super-odd to see one carrier adding a bunch of capacity to places like SAL or STT/STX only to see another bail. Makes you wonder how their realities can be that different.
SurfandSnow wrote:
enilria wrote:
*DL CDG-CVG OCT 0.2>0[0.9] NOV 0.6>0[0.7] DEC 0.6>0[0.6] JAN 0.7>0[0.7] FEB 0.7>0[0.7] MAR 0.7>0.1[0.7] APR 1.0>0.6[0.6] MAY 1.0>0.6[0] JUN 1.0>0.6[0]
**DL CDG-IND APR 0.7>0[0.5] MAY 0.8>0[0] JUN 1.0>0[0]
*DL CDG-LAX OCT 0.2>0[1.0] NOV 0.7>0[0.8] DEC 0.8>0[0.7] JAN 0.6>0[0.6] FEB 0.6>0[0.6] MAR 0.7>0.2[0.7]
*DL CDG-RDU OCT 0.2>0[0.9] NOV 0.6>0[0.7] DEC 0.6>0[0.6] JAN 0.7>0[0.7] FEB 0.7>0[0.7] MAR 0.7>0.1[0.7] APR 1.0>0.7[0.6] MAY 1.0>0.7[0] JUN 1.0>0.7[0]


Wow, I thought all 4 of these routes would be goners. Pleasantly surprised to see that only IND-CDG got cut!

OTOH, I'd say that June is extremely iffy in terms of being a solid schedule. They can just reaccom RDU and CVG over another hub. I'm really surprised DL didn't leave more of these to accumulate bookings to reaccom to survivor flights.
winginit wrote:
Complete nonsense. Upwards of $30M+ per year in Corporate revenue, a huge chunk of it automotive (Daimler, VW) flows from the U.S. to STR, and it's the backbone of that route given it's front cabin. As was mentioned, military is low margin and 95%+ economy class.

100% agree. It may have existed before the Southern auto boom, but I guarantee it went from on the edge of being dropped to strong margins with the front cabin boost.
TW870 wrote:
Enilria - thank you as always for the hard work.

:)
TW870 wrote:
1. This is a benchmark for logistics and labor power planning, period. If vaccine trials go better than expected, I think you could see a good number of adds in addition to what is in the press release. With slow vaccine progress, and unless community spread goes way down in countries where it is high now, the schedule will be far smaller, and look much more like summer 2020 than what is in the press release. The borders absolutely have to be open for the schedule anything close to what they put in the press release, and that requires that public health measures are more successful - especially in the US.

I agree, but that is something you do internally. I don't see what it had to be published. To a large extent what is published sets a maximum of what will be flown. Sure they can add more flights, but the window to do that is short. Even though the booking window is much shorter now, I don't see people throwing together a Europe trip in 60 days. If it were me I would want to get everything booked fully refundable by January, ask for the vacation time off, and then ride the wave until I have to cancel to switch to a Florida trip or go forward with the trip. BTW, every time somebody says "I just want to go to sleep until 2021" I laugh inside. 2021 isn't going to look much different, at least most of it. Delta clearly thinks that.

TW870 wrote:
2. I think the cancelled boutique summer flying will hold in all cases. JFK-CPH, BER, etc., require high end travel demand. Even if the epidemic comes under control, the economy will take longer to recover, and folks aren;t going to be able to drop $5K to go on vacay in DeltaOne if their businesses are still shaky.

That's an excellent point on J. We have gotten to a point with domestic where people are flying for leisure, but business is dead after 5 months. I think the chances of much business traffic next Summer to Europe are close to zero. We haven't even gotten to the point of leisure coming back and we won't till next Summer. If then.
 
Brickell305
Posts: 1094
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 2:07 pm

Re: OAG Changes 8/25/2020:Cuts Begin for 21;DL DROPS NUMEROUS ROUTES INTL ROUTES FOR SUMMER 2021, Adds SEA-ONT,MSP-TVC

Thu Aug 27, 2020 3:51 pm

SurfandSnow wrote:
enilria wrote:
AA CLT-STT NOV 1.0>1.4[0.4] DEC 1.0>1.5[0.6] JAN 1.0>2.0[0.9] FEB 1.0>2.0[0.9] MAR 1.0>2.0[1.0]
*AA CLT-STX JAN 0.3>1.0[0.3] FEB 0.1>1.0[0.2] MAR 0.1>1.0[0.1]
*AA DFW-STT DEC 0.1>0.6[0.1] JAN 0.2>1.0[0.1] FEB 0.1>1.0[0.2] MAR 0.1>1.0[0.1]


Wonderful to see both AA stations in the U.S. Virgin Islands getting more flights! Then again, any change in entry requirements for tourists from the U.S. mainland could doom these services. Still, it's nice to see at least some airports seemingly doing better now than they did before the pandemic...

enilria wrote:
UA adds SAL flights and AA cuts. Tells me there are incentives involved.
**AA DFW-SAL NOV 0.6>0.1[0] DEC 0.7>0[0.4] JAN 0.7>0[0.6] FEB 0.6>0[0.6] MAR 0.5>0[0.6] APR 0.6>0[0] MAY 0.6>0[0]


Well.. aren't many of AA's DFW-Latin America (and for that matter, DFW-Caribbean) flights an on-again, off-again exercise? IIRC this route has come and gone quite a bit over the years. This one in particular always seem to suddenly reappear when AA's finances improve and then quickly vanish when the airline's fortunes decline...

enilria wrote:
AA GEO-JFK NOV 1.0>0.1[0] DEC 1.0>0.5[0.5]


Aren't AA and B6 friendly now? Is there really reason for both carriers to continue to fly this rather obscure route?!? Seeing as how the route was a failure for DL, I would be shocked if 2 carriers can now survive on it...

enilria wrote:
**AA PVG-SEA APR 0>1.0[0] MAY 0>1.0[0] JUN 0>1.0[0]


Looks like AA is still quite serious about trying to make SEA work. DL certainly doesn't appear to be backing down in the Seattle market either. It will be very interesting to see what happens there!

enilria wrote:
**DL AMS-MCO APR 1.0>0[0.9] MAY 1.0>0[0] JUN 1.0>0[0]
**DL AMS-TPA APR 0.7>0[0.4] MAY 1.0>0[0] JUN 1.0>0[0]


It always struck me as odd that DL was operating these flights. Aren't these routes, which presumably cater to Dutch tourists rather than American travelers, much better served by KL?

enilria wrote:
**DL ASE-ATL DEC 0.4>0[0.4] JAN 1.0>0[1.0] FEB 1.0>0[1.0] MAR 0.9>0[0.9]
**DL ASE-LAX DEC 0.7>0[0.6] JAN 1.1>0[1.2] FEB 1.0>0[1.0] MAR 0.9>0[0.9]

*DL ATL-MTJ DEC 0.4>0[0.3] JAN 0.2>0[0.3]


So is DL completely calling it quits in the Aspen and Montrose/Telluride markets this upcoming ski season? IIRC DL recently cut all service to HDN. Are any DL flights still planned for EGE?

enilria wrote:
This looks gone long term
**DL ATL-BRU NOV 0.6>0[0.5] DEC 0.3>0[0.3] JAN 0.5>0[0.3] FEB 0.6>0[0.5] MAR 0.6>0[0.5] APR 1.0>0[0.5] MAY 1.0>0[0] JUN 1.0>0[0]


I'd stick this in the same category as AA's DFW-SAL service. It may be gone for now, but will probably return in a few years when things improve. After all, Brussels is the capital of the European Union. Unless things change, it will only become more and more important/relevant!

enilria wrote:
This looks gone long term
**DL ATL-DUS OCT 0.2>0[0.9] NOV 0.7>0[0.7] DEC 0.6>0[0.6] JAN 0.7>0[0.7] FEB 0.7>0[0.7] MAR 0.7>0[0.7] APR 1.0>0[0.6] MAY 1.0>0[0] JUN 1.0>0[0]


This route, however, probably is gone for good. I wonder if UA would ever consider returning to the DUS market. They used to fly ORD-DUS, but EWR-DUS would probably be better bet these days. Or perhaps AA could pull off CLT-DUS if Rhine-Ruhr travelers will truly miss the easy access to Florida, other popular U.S. destinations, and the Caribbean?

enilria wrote:
This also looks gone long term
**DL ATL-KIN NOV 1.0>0.1[1.0] DEC 1.0>0[1.0] JAN 1.0>0[1.0] FEB 1.0>0[1.0] MAR 1.0>0[1.0] APR 1.0>0[1.0] MAY 1.0>0[0.4] JUN 1.0>0[0.4]


Seems like DL is finally calling it quits on the VFR markets from ATL. IIRC PAP was the first to go, and much more recently HAV and TGU were cut. A much more leisure traveler focused ATL-Caribbean operation, akin to what AA offers at CLT, is probably the best thing DL could do at ATL for now. DL can always serve VFR markets like this from JFK, perhaps even South Florida and/or Central Florida. O&D between Atlanta and places like Kingston, Port-au-Prince and Tegucigalpa must be atrocious!

enilria wrote:
I'm kinda surprised to see this one gone long term
**DL ATL-LIR NOV 1.1>0.1[1.0] DEC 1.5>0[1.4] JAN 2>0[2] FEB 2>0[2] MAR 2>0[2] APR 1.0>0[0.7] MAY 1.0>0[0.4] JUN 1.0>0[0.1]

So odd it operates in NOV and then gone. I assume there are bookings that might show up?
**DL ATL-SJO NOV 1.3>0.1[2] DEC 2>0[2] JAN 2>0[2] FEB 2>0[2] MAR 2>0[2] APR 2>0[1.7] MAY 2>0[0.5] JUN 2>0[0.2]

**DL LAX-SJO NOV 0.3>0[0.9] DEC 1.0>0[1.0] JAN 1.0>0[1.0] FEB 1.0>0[1.0] MAR 1.0>0[1.0] APR 1.0>0[0.5] MAY 1.0>0[0.6] JUN 1.0>0[0]


By far the most shocking move by DL this week. Even if this is somehow a mistake, or perhaps a strong message to the Costa Rican government that recently decided only to let in American tourists from a handful of Northeastern states, it could be an opportunity for competition to jump on these routes. Shockingly enough, WN has made some fairly bold moves in ATL lately - and this week's report seems to indicate a strong UA interest in the LAX-Central America realm once again. Those carriers, or even somebody like B6, F9 or NK, could see this as an opportunity to jump on these routes...

enilria wrote:
Looks long term gone
**DL ATL-PVG OCT 0.2>0[0.9] NOV 1.0>0[0.9] DEC 1.0>0[0.8] JAN 1.0>0[0.8] FEB 1.0>0[0.9] MAR 1.0>0[0] APR 1.0>0[0] MAY 1.0>0[0] JUN 1.0>0[0]


This route's prospects were dubious even before the pandemic. I'm sure getting DTW/LAX/SEA-PVG going again will be challenging enough for DL as it is. I'm a little surprised LAX-PVG came back, but I suppose AA quickly throwing in the towel on that route helped DL and UA...

enilria wrote:
**DL BER-JFK MAY 1.0>0[0] JUN 1.0>0[0]


Another route that DL has cut and resumed before. It will probably be back in a few years.

enilria wrote:
**DL BOM-JFK DEC 0.7>0[0.3] JAN 1.0>0[1.0] FEB 1.0>0[1.0] MAR 1.0>0[1.0] APR 1.0>0[0.5] MAY 1.0>0[0] JUN 1.0>0[0]


This one, like ATL-PVG, seemed to be quite a risky venture even in a good economy. No surprise to see it cut.

enilria wrote:
**DL BOS-EDI MAY 1.0>0[0] JUN 1.0>0[0]
**DL BOS-FCO JUN 1.0>0[0]
**DL BOS-LIS MAY 1.0>0[0] JUN 1.0>0[0]


It isn't surprising to see the secondary European destinations cut from BOS, though I wonder if DL will ever give these another try in the future. They don't seem to be completely giving up on the BOS market!

enilria wrote:
*DL CDG-CVG OCT 0.2>0[0.9] NOV 0.6>0[0.7] DEC 0.6>0[0.6] JAN 0.7>0[0.7] FEB 0.7>0[0.7] MAR 0.7>0.1[0.7] APR 1.0>0.6[0.6] MAY 1.0>0.6[0] JUN 1.0>0.6[0]
**DL CDG-IND APR 0.7>0[0.5] MAY 0.8>0[0] JUN 1.0>0[0]
*DL CDG-LAX OCT 0.2>0[1.0] NOV 0.7>0[0.8] DEC 0.8>0[0.7] JAN 0.6>0[0.6] FEB 0.6>0[0.6] MAR 0.7>0.2[0.7]
*DL CDG-RDU OCT 0.2>0[0.9] NOV 0.6>0[0.7] DEC 0.6>0[0.6] JAN 0.7>0[0.7] FEB 0.7>0[0.7] MAR 0.7>0.1[0.7] APR 1.0>0.7[0.6] MAY 1.0>0.7[0] JUN 1.0>0.7[0]


Wow, I thought all 4 of these routes would be goners. Pleasantly surprised to see that only IND-CDG got cut!

enilria wrote:
*DL CPH-JFK MAY 0.4>0[0] JUN 1.0>0[0]


I thought this might have been much easier with Norwegian having called it quits.. but I guess not?

enilria wrote:
**DL DTW-PKX OCT 0.2>0[0] NOV 1.0>0[0] DEC 1.0>0[0] JAN 1.0>0[0] FEB 1.0>0[0] MAR 1.0>0[0] APR 1.0>0[0] MAY 1.0>0[0] JUN 1.0>0[0]


Demand to Beijing seems to be way down, what with all U.S. carrier flights to China operating to PVG these days. I assume DL intends only to serve Beijing via SEA? It will be interesting to see how AA and UA decide to serve PEK, if at all...

enilria wrote:
**DL HNL-KIX OCT 0.3>0[0.9] NOV 1.0>0[1.0] DEC 1.0>0[1.1] JAN 1.0>0[1.1] FEB 1.0>0[0.9] MAR 1.0>0[1.0] APR 1.0>0[0.1] MAY 1.0>0[0] JUN 1.0>0[0]
**DL HNL-NGO OCT 0.2>0[0.7] NOV 0.7>0[0.7] DEC 0.8>0[0.8] JAN 0.8>0[0.7] FEB 0.7>0[0.7] MAR 0.7>0[0.7] APR 0.7>0[0.0] MAY 0.7>0[0] JUN 1.0>0[0]
DL KIX-SEA APR 1.0>0[0] MAY 1.0>0[0] JUN 1.0>0[0]


I'm surprised these routes weren't cut sooner!

enilria wrote:
**DL JFK-STT SEP 0.7>0[0.1] NOV 0.9>0.2[0.3] DEC 0.5>0[0.7] JAN 1.0>0[0.9] FEB 1.0>0[0.9] MAR 1.0>0[0.9] APR 1.0>0[1.0] MAY 1.0>0[0] JUN 1.0>0[0]


I realize B6 just started this route.. but isn't the U.S. Virgin Islands going to be one of the easier markets to serve these days? American travelers just don't have many options available to them these days...

enilria wrote:
**DL LHR-PDX APR 0.2>0[0.2] MAY 1.0>0[0] JUN 1.0>0[0]
**DL LHR-SLC OCT 0.3>0[0.6] NOV 1.0>0[0] DEC 0.9>0[0.3] JAN 0.9>0[0.9] FEB 0.9>0[0.9] MAR 0.9>0[1.0] APR 1.0>0[0.9] MAY 1.0>0[0] JUN 1.0>0[0]


I'm guessing DL doesn't have to make use of these two LHR slots anytime soon.. still pretty surprising to see DL's LHR operations reduced to just ATL/BOS/DTW/JFK/MSP though.

enilria wrote:
**DL ONT-SEA OCT 0>2[0] NOV 0>0.5[0]


More good news from ONT lately. Of all the airports to do well in the pandemic...the last one I expected would be ONT!

enilria wrote:
**UA GUA-LAX APR 0>1.0[0] MAY 0>1.0[0] JUN 0>1.0[0]
**UA LAX-SAL APR 0>1.0[0] MAY 0>1.0[0] JUN 0>1.0[0]


I was wondering if UA would ever give LAX-Central America another try! Great to see these routes come back.

enilria wrote:
UA ITO-LAX SEP 0.4>0.2[0.7]


Very impressive to see that this route continues to operate. UA's LAX operation seems to be doing far better than I thought it would!

Re the USVI, they are rolling back their reopening and I am guessing that is what DL is responding to. AA may believe that things will return to normal by December and is opening reservations accordingly. However, I'd be surprised if that doesn't get rolled back. https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/ny ... story.html

Re JFK-GEO, AA and BW are the carriers currently flying the route. B6 announced intentions to start the route pre-COVID but that has since been delayed without a definitive start up date.

Re ATL-KIN/PAP, Atlanta actually does have both a sizable Jamaican and Haitian VFR population. They are obviously not at the same scale as So. Fla or NYC VFR populations but they are not nothing either. That with the ability to pull in connections from the VFR communities from places outside of Florida could have been enough to sustain both flights in normal times. However, with MIA-KIN and FLL-KIN flights down to one daily, it's not hard to see why ATL-KIN would be cut. It would likely have survived in normal times, not in the current environment.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
Posts: 8231
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 11:45 am

Re: OAG Changes 8/25/2020:Cuts Begin for 21;DL DROPS NUMEROUS ROUTES INTL ROUTES FOR SUMMER 2021, Adds SEA-ONT,MSP-TVC

Thu Aug 27, 2020 4:20 pm

enilria wrote:
I haven't followed what the resorts are doing, but I would have assumed demand would be similar to the National Park spike of the Summer. Perhaps the ski resorts said they aren't opening? I'm sure the slopes are open.

As a die-hard skier and also connected a bit into the industry, I'll give a little bit of insight on to the upcoming winter.

Right now there is a huge amount of uncertainty going into the upcoming 20-21 ski season. They expect overall destination/travel ski visits to be down, but by how much is unknown. It will vary alot by resort and their target markets/demographics. Advanced pass sales are down and/or people waiting to see what the season will look like. The resorts are making contingency plans for potential capacity constraints, social distancing in facilities, and even capping/lottery systems access if required. This all adds uncertainty and well.

Also a huge amount of uncertainty around the school and school break situation in the winter/spring semesters. No one knows if it will still be mostly virtual/remote, if some will be back in-person, if breaks will still fall as scheduled. Many universities have already cancelled spring break since they don't want students to come/go from their campus bubble.

The resorts that do a lot business from driving-range traffic, in particularly most of Colorado and Utah will still get the Front Range / DEN & SLC locals respectively. The more remote and air travel dependent are a big unknown.

Ski resorts are a bit different than the National Park demand. Skiing is far more expensive and far more barriers to entry. Its very upper class sport, particularly for the travel set.
There is also a disproportionate amount of skiers that are 50, if not 60, 70+ that fall into the higher risk categories of the virus. They may be hesitant to travel as much.
Also, its not just the ski on-the-snow experience, its also the apres-ski and other winter activities that people like to enjoy.

Destination ski resorts really only make money for about 8 weeks out of the season. The 2-week stretch over the Christmas/ Holiday period, and the ~6 week period from mid-Feb around Presidents Day weekend until the end of March.

The die-hards, the hardcore passion bunch are a lock to ski this winter. The more casual ones, the families from Georgia that some years go skiing in Colorado or go to Florida for Spring Break are a big unknown. Some resorts, in particular Vail & Aspen get a sizable amount of international skiers from the UK, Mexico, and South America. There will be virtually no international destination skiers this winter.

I do think if the ski resorts can operate reasonably well through the Holiday period, then people may try to go over the more traditional winter/spring break periods in Feb/March.
So yes, ski resorts will be open. Business will be down under all scenarios. Air travel to destination resorts will be down under all scenarios. The question is to what extent.
 
Lootess
Posts: 515
Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 6:15 am

Re: OAG Changes 8/25/2020:Cuts Begin for 21;DL DROPS NUMEROUS ROUTES INTL ROUTES FOR SUMMER 2021, Adds SEA-ONT,MSP-TVC

Thu Aug 27, 2020 5:57 pm

alfa164 wrote:
MAH4546 wrote:
Lootess wrote:
I trust the Delta official press release of their winter/summer 21 schedule: https://news.delta.com/delta-brings-back-more-flights-across-atlantic-and-pacific-winter-and-summer-2021

ATL-DUS was an automotive industry route, name Mercedes-Benz. Just like ATL-STR but that one has more revenue, namely Mercedes and Porsche legs to stand on hence why that one is staying afloat during hard times. DUS will return someday, Mercedes-Benz USA HQ is in ATL.


Absolutely not. Mercedes is in Stuttgart. Düsseldorf has no auto industry, it’s just junk yield traffic to Florida (which has nonstops) and California. Besides that, the Stuttgart route is military traffic and predates Mercedes and Porsche’s southern operations.


Dusseldorf is home to Mercedes largest van factory in Europe; Charleston, South Carolina, is home to their largest plant in the USA. There is traffic between the two, albeit not at the same level as traffic to Stuttgart.


Yep, Dusseldorf Mercedes van factory is also one of the largest in the network and the US is the 2nd largest market simply because of the Amazon Prime van order which are all built in Charleston.

South Carolina is also no slouch in European automotive traffic because of Mercedes, BMW and Volvo.
 
User avatar
enilria
Topic Author
Posts: 10297
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:15 pm

Re: OAG Changes 8/25/2020:Cuts Begin for 21;DL DROPS NUMEROUS ROUTES INTL ROUTES FOR SUMMER 2021, Adds SEA-ONT,MSP-TVC

Sat Aug 29, 2020 11:46 am

panamair wrote:
TropicalSky wrote:
man DAL just gutted JAMAICA from basically every station


I don't think the Jamaica cuts are correct. I still see JFK-MBJ available for booking in Oct, Nov, Dec (peak holiday period even shows 2 flights a day), Jan, Feb, March, etc.

I also see LAX-SJO available in late December, January....

I'm hearing DL rolled back both the CR cuts and the Jamaica cuts. Here's the question, was it a mistake? Or was it a threat in order to get something? It could be they filed an internal equipment type. Do all these routes have the same aircraft type?
 
User avatar
jfklganyc
Posts: 6070
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 2:31 pm

Re: OAG Changes 8/25/2020:Cuts Begin for 21;DL DROPS NUMEROUS ROUTES INTL ROUTES FOR SUMMER 2021, Adds SEA-ONT,MSP-TVC

Sat Aug 29, 2020 12:27 pm

klm617 wrote:
Looks like the new JFK adds to DFW, DTW and MSP aren't working out. Going from 2 daily to less than daily in less than 2 months is not a good sign.


They never ran 2 daily. They always ran semi-daily.

They were announced in June as two daily and then the bounce fell flat.

They are just doing what they are doing with most of their routes...barely keeping it going while riding it out.

EWR involves grabbing gates and marking territory. So slightly different factors than JFK. But, rest assured, just about everything old and new; jfk or ewr is doing terrible. Sadly.
 
Nicknuzzii
Posts: 1300
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:57 pm

Re: OAG Changes 8/25/2020:Cuts Begin for 21;DL DROPS NUMEROUS ROUTES INTL ROUTES FOR SUMMER 2021, Adds SEA-ONT,MSP-TVC

Sat Aug 29, 2020 1:55 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
klm617 wrote:
Looks like the new JFK adds to DFW, DTW and MSP aren't working out. Going from 2 daily to less than daily in less than 2 months is not a good sign.


They never ran 2 daily. They always ran semi-daily.

They were announced in June as two daily and then the bounce fell flat.

They are just doing what they are doing with most of their routes...barely keeping it going while riding it out.

EWR involves grabbing gates and marking territory. So slightly different factors than JFK. But, rest assured, just about everything old and new; jfk or ewr is doing terrible. Sadly.


I can’t speak for JFK but for EWR I’ve flown on B6 a few times lately and the flights have been full with the exception of middle seats. Even with most middle seats blocked lots of parties of 3 or more filled quite a few rows.

As for the new routes EWR-LAX/SFO had a rough start but are now performing pretty well. LAX has been sold out quite a few times.
 
IPFreely
Posts: 2628
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 8:26 am

Re: OAG Changes 8/25/2020:Cuts Begin for 21;DL DROPS NUMEROUS ROUTES INTL ROUTES FOR SUMMER 2021, Adds SEA-ONT,MSP-TVC

Sat Aug 29, 2020 2:23 pm

SurfandSnow wrote:
Looks like AA is still quite serious about trying to make SEA work. DL certainly doesn't appear to be backing down in the Seattle market either. It will be very interesting to see what happens there!


DL isn't backing down in SEA? The facts say otherwise. Unless 2 RJ's a day to ONT balance out these recently announced cuts:

SEA destinations wiped off the map by DL in the last months:
DL BZN-SEA AUG 1.5>0[0.1] SEP 2>0[0] OCT 1.9>0[0] NOV 2.0>0.8[0]
DL CVG-SEA AUG 0.7>0[1.0]
DL IND-SEA AUG 0.7>0[1.0]
DL MCI-SEA AUG 0.7>0[1.0]
DL MCO-SEA AUG 0.7>0[0.8]
DL MKE-SEA AUG 0.7>0[1.0]
DL RDU-SEA AUG 0.7>0[1.0]
DL SEA-TPA AUG 0.7>0[0]
DL CDG-SEA AUG 0.7>0[1.0]
DL OGG-SEA AUG 0.5>0[1.0]
DL KIX-SEA APR 1.0>0[0] MAY 1.0>0[0] JUN 1.0>0[0]
DL SEA-YYC AUG 2>0[3]
DL CVG-SEA OCT 1.0>0[0.5]
DL IAD-SEA OCT 1.9>0[0.9] NOV 1.9>1.4[0.8]
DL JAC-SEA DEC 0.3>0[0.3]
DL MKE-SEA OCT 1.0>0[0.9] NOV 0.9>0.7[0.8]
DL PKX-SEA OCT 0.2>0[0] NOV 1.0>0[0] DEC 1.0>0[0] JAN 1.0>0[0] FEB 1.0>0[0] MAR 1.0>0.2[0]
DL SEA-SJD APR 1.0>0[0.4] MAY 1.0>0[0] JUN 1.0>0[0]

SEA destinations reduced by DL in the last months::
DL ANC-SEA AUG 4>3[6]
DL BOI-SEA AUG 6>5[5]
DL BOS-SEA AUG 3>1.9[3]
DL GEG-SEA AUG 8>6[8]
DL HND-SEA AUG 0.9>0.5[0] SEP 1.0>0.7[0]
DL IAD-SEA AUG 1.6>1.0[1.0]
DL ICN-SEA AUG 1.1>0.7[1.0] SEP 1.2>0.8[1.0]
DL JFK-SEA AUG 4>3[5]
DL LAS-SEA AUG 5>3[5]
DL LAX-SEA AUG 8>6[9]
DL SAN-SEA AUG 4>3[5]
DL SEA-SFO AUG 6>4[8]
DL SEA-SJC AUG 5>4[6]
DL SEA-SLC AUG 7>6[8]
DL SEA-SMF AUG 5>4[5]
DL SEA-SNA AUG 4>2[5]
DL SEA-YVR AUG 5>3[7]
DL AUS-SEA AUG 0.5>0[1.0]
DL SEA-SJC AUG 4>3[6]
DL SEA-SMF AUG 4>3[5]
DL AUS-SEA OCT 1.8>0.7[0.8]
DL BOI-SEA OCT 7>6[6]
DL CDG-SEA NOV 1.0>0.6[1.0] DEC 1.0>0.5[1.0]
DL DEN-SEA OCT 4>3[4]
DL GEG-SEA OCT 9>7[8]
DL HND-SEA NOV 1.0>0.6[0] DEC 1.0>0.6[0]
DL ICN-SEA NOV 1.0>0.6[0.9] DEC 1.0>0.6[1.0]
DL JFK-SEA OCT 5>3[4]
DL KOA-SEA OCT 1.0>0[0.7] NOV 1.0>0.8[0.7]
DL LIH-SEA OCT 1.0>0[0.7] NOV 1.0>0.8[0.7]
DL MCO-SEA OCT 1.0>0.6[0.5]
DL OGG-SEA OCT 1.0>0[1.0] NOV 1.0>0.8[1.0]
DL ORD-SEA OCT 3>2[3]
DL PDX-SEA OCT 8>6[8]
DL SAN-SEA OCT 5>3[5]
DL SAN-SLC OCT 5>4[5]
DL SEA-SFO OCT 7>4[7]
DL SEA-SJC OCT 6>3[5]
DL SEA-SLC OCT 8>6[8]
DL SEA-SMF OCT 5>4[5]
DL SEA-SNA OCT 4>2[5]
DL SEA-YVR OCT 6>1.0[7] NOV 5>4[6]
DL SEA-YYC OCT 3>0[3] NOV 2>1.5[2]
 
User avatar
spinotter
Posts: 799
Joined: Wed May 27, 2015 1:37 am

Re: OAG Changes 8/25/2020:Cuts Begin for 21;DL DROPS NUMEROUS ROUTES INTL ROUTES FOR SUMMER 2021, Adds SEA-ONT,MSP-TVC

Sat Aug 29, 2020 3:09 pm

IPFreely wrote:
SurfandSnow wrote:
Looks like AA is still quite serious about trying to make SEA work. DL certainly doesn't appear to be backing down in the Seattle market either. It will be very interesting to see what happens there!


DL isn't backing down in SEA? The facts say otherwise. Unless 2 RJ's a day to ONT balance out these recently announced cuts:

SEA destinations wiped off the map by DL in the last months:
DL BZN-SEA AUG 1.5>0[0.1] SEP 2>0[0] OCT 1.9>0[0] NOV 2.0>0.8[0]
DL CVG-SEA AUG 0.7>0[1.0]
DL IND-SEA AUG 0.7>0[1.0]
DL MCI-SEA AUG 0.7>0[1.0]
DL MCO-SEA AUG 0.7>0[0.8]
DL MKE-SEA AUG 0.7>0[1.0]
DL RDU-SEA AUG 0.7>0[1.0]
DL SEA-TPA AUG 0.7>0[0]
DL CDG-SEA AUG 0.7>0[1.0]
DL OGG-SEA AUG 0.5>0[1.0]
DL KIX-SEA APR 1.0>0[0] MAY 1.0>0[0] JUN 1.0>0[0]
DL SEA-YYC AUG 2>0[3]
DL CVG-SEA OCT 1.0>0[0.5]
DL IAD-SEA OCT 1.9>0[0.9] NOV 1.9>1.4[0.8]
DL JAC-SEA DEC 0.3>0[0.3]
DL MKE-SEA OCT 1.0>0[0.9] NOV 0.9>0.7[0.8]
DL PKX-SEA OCT 0.2>0[0] NOV 1.0>0[0] DEC 1.0>0[0] JAN 1.0>0[0] FEB 1.0>0[0] MAR 1.0>0.2[0]
DL SEA-SJD APR 1.0>0[0.4] MAY 1.0>0[0] JUN 1.0>0[0]

SEA destinations reduced by DL in the last months::
DL ANC-SEA AUG 4>3[6]
DL BOI-SEA AUG 6>5[5]
DL BOS-SEA AUG 3>1.9[3]
DL GEG-SEA AUG 8>6[8]
DL HND-SEA AUG 0.9>0.5[0] SEP 1.0>0.7[0]
DL IAD-SEA AUG 1.6>1.0[1.0]
DL ICN-SEA AUG 1.1>0.7[1.0] SEP 1.2>0.8[1.0]
DL JFK-SEA AUG 4>3[5]
DL LAS-SEA AUG 5>3[5]
DL LAX-SEA AUG 8>6[9]
DL SAN-SEA AUG 4>3[5]
DL SEA-SFO AUG 6>4[8]
DL SEA-SJC AUG 5>4[6]
DL SEA-SLC AUG 7>6[8]
DL SEA-SMF AUG 5>4[5]
DL SEA-SNA AUG 4>2[5]
DL SEA-YVR AUG 5>3[7]
DL AUS-SEA AUG 0.5>0[1.0]
DL SEA-SJC AUG 4>3[6]
DL SEA-SMF AUG 4>3[5]
DL AUS-SEA OCT 1.8>0.7[0.8]
DL BOI-SEA OCT 7>6[6]
DL CDG-SEA NOV 1.0>0.6[1.0] DEC 1.0>0.5[1.0]
DL DEN-SEA OCT 4>3[4]
DL GEG-SEA OCT 9>7[8]
DL HND-SEA NOV 1.0>0.6[0] DEC 1.0>0.6[0]
DL ICN-SEA NOV 1.0>0.6[0.9] DEC 1.0>0.6[1.0]
DL JFK-SEA OCT 5>3[4]
DL KOA-SEA OCT 1.0>0[0.7] NOV 1.0>0.8[0.7]
DL LIH-SEA OCT 1.0>0[0.7] NOV 1.0>0.8[0.7]
DL MCO-SEA OCT 1.0>0.6[0.5]
DL OGG-SEA OCT 1.0>0[1.0] NOV 1.0>0.8[1.0]
DL ORD-SEA OCT 3>2[3]
DL PDX-SEA OCT 8>6[8]
DL SAN-SEA OCT 5>3[5]
DL SAN-SLC OCT 5>4[5]
DL SEA-SFO OCT 7>4[7]
DL SEA-SJC OCT 6>3[5]
DL SEA-SLC OCT 8>6[8]
DL SEA-SMF OCT 5>4[5]
DL SEA-SNA OCT 4>2[5]
DL SEA-YVR OCT 6>1.0[7] NOV 5>4[6]
DL SEA-YYC OCT 3>0[3] NOV 2>1.5[2]


Those are certainly long lists of dropped flights. But how do the numbers of daily flights, daily seats, or ASMs compare with the same numbers last year at SEA versus other DL hubs such as ATL, DTW, LAX, or MSP? Maybe SEA holds its own in those numbers and that is what SurfandSnow meant. Do we have those numbers for individual airports?
 
wedgetail737
Posts: 5286
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2003 8:44 am

Re: OAG Changes 8/25/2020:Cuts Begin for 21;DL DROPS NUMEROUS ROUTES INTL ROUTES FOR SUMMER 2021, Adds SEA-ONT,MSP-TVC

Sat Aug 29, 2020 3:14 pm

spinotter wrote:
IPFreely wrote:
SurfandSnow wrote:
Looks like AA is still quite serious about trying to make SEA work. DL certainly doesn't appear to be backing down in the Seattle market either. It will be very interesting to see what happens there!


DL isn't backing down in SEA? The facts say otherwise. Unless 2 RJ's a day to ONT balance out these recently announced cuts:

SEA destinations wiped off the map by DL in the last months:
DL BZN-SEA AUG 1.5>0[0.1] SEP 2>0[0] OCT 1.9>0[0] NOV 2.0>0.8[0]
DL CVG-SEA AUG 0.7>0[1.0]
DL IND-SEA AUG 0.7>0[1.0]
DL MCI-SEA AUG 0.7>0[1.0]
DL MCO-SEA AUG 0.7>0[0.8]
DL MKE-SEA AUG 0.7>0[1.0]
DL RDU-SEA AUG 0.7>0[1.0]
DL SEA-TPA AUG 0.7>0[0]
DL CDG-SEA AUG 0.7>0[1.0]
DL OGG-SEA AUG 0.5>0[1.0]
DL KIX-SEA APR 1.0>0[0] MAY 1.0>0[0] JUN 1.0>0[0]
DL SEA-YYC AUG 2>0[3]
DL CVG-SEA OCT 1.0>0[0.5]
DL IAD-SEA OCT 1.9>0[0.9] NOV 1.9>1.4[0.8]
DL JAC-SEA DEC 0.3>0[0.3]
DL MKE-SEA OCT 1.0>0[0.9] NOV 0.9>0.7[0.8]
DL PKX-SEA OCT 0.2>0[0] NOV 1.0>0[0] DEC 1.0>0[0] JAN 1.0>0[0] FEB 1.0>0[0] MAR 1.0>0.2[0]
DL SEA-SJD APR 1.0>0[0.4] MAY 1.0>0[0] JUN 1.0>0[0]

SEA destinations reduced by DL in the last months::
DL ANC-SEA AUG 4>3[6]
DL BOI-SEA AUG 6>5[5]
DL BOS-SEA AUG 3>1.9[3]
DL GEG-SEA AUG 8>6[8]
DL HND-SEA AUG 0.9>0.5[0] SEP 1.0>0.7[0]
DL IAD-SEA AUG 1.6>1.0[1.0]
DL ICN-SEA AUG 1.1>0.7[1.0] SEP 1.2>0.8[1.0]
DL JFK-SEA AUG 4>3[5]
DL LAS-SEA AUG 5>3[5]
DL LAX-SEA AUG 8>6[9]
DL SAN-SEA AUG 4>3[5]
DL SEA-SFO AUG 6>4[8]
DL SEA-SJC AUG 5>4[6]
DL SEA-SLC AUG 7>6[8]
DL SEA-SMF AUG 5>4[5]
DL SEA-SNA AUG 4>2[5]
DL SEA-YVR AUG 5>3[7]
DL AUS-SEA AUG 0.5>0[1.0]
DL SEA-SJC AUG 4>3[6]
DL SEA-SMF AUG 4>3[5]
DL AUS-SEA OCT 1.8>0.7[0.8]
DL BOI-SEA OCT 7>6[6]
DL CDG-SEA NOV 1.0>0.6[1.0] DEC 1.0>0.5[1.0]
DL DEN-SEA OCT 4>3[4]
DL GEG-SEA OCT 9>7[8]
DL HND-SEA NOV 1.0>0.6[0] DEC 1.0>0.6[0]
DL ICN-SEA NOV 1.0>0.6[0.9] DEC 1.0>0.6[1.0]
DL JFK-SEA OCT 5>3[4]
DL KOA-SEA OCT 1.0>0[0.7] NOV 1.0>0.8[0.7]
DL LIH-SEA OCT 1.0>0[0.7] NOV 1.0>0.8[0.7]
DL MCO-SEA OCT 1.0>0.6[0.5]
DL OGG-SEA OCT 1.0>0[1.0] NOV 1.0>0.8[1.0]
DL ORD-SEA OCT 3>2[3]
DL PDX-SEA OCT 8>6[8]
DL SAN-SEA OCT 5>3[5]
DL SAN-SLC OCT 5>4[5]
DL SEA-SFO OCT 7>4[7]
DL SEA-SJC OCT 6>3[5]
DL SEA-SLC OCT 8>6[8]
DL SEA-SMF OCT 5>4[5]
DL SEA-SNA OCT 4>2[5]
DL SEA-YVR OCT 6>1.0[7] NOV 5>4[6]
DL SEA-YYC OCT 3>0[3] NOV 2>1.5[2]


Those are certainly long lists of dropped flights. But how do the numbers of daily flights, daily seats, or ASMs compare with the same numbers last year at SEA versus other DL hubs such as ATL, DTW, LAX, or MSP? Maybe SEA holds its own in those numbers and that is what SurfandSnow meant. Do we have those numbers for individual airports?


Most of those are temporary stoppages until COVID is under control (hopefully, soon) and the economy, passenger confidence get back on their feet and government restrictions are lifted. If DL is adding flights to SEA like SEA-ONT, then they are not abandoning SEA anytime soon.
 
ytib
Posts: 590
Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2004 3:22 am

Re: OAG Changes 8/25/2020:Cuts Begin for 21;DL DROPS NUMEROUS ROUTES INTL ROUTES FOR SUMMER 2021, Adds SEA-ONT,MSP-TVC

Sat Aug 29, 2020 3:21 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
enilria wrote:
I haven't followed what the resorts are doing, but I would have assumed demand would be similar to the National Park spike of the Summer. Perhaps the ski resorts said they aren't opening? I'm sure the slopes are open.

As a die-hard skier and also connected a bit into the industry, I'll give a little bit of insight on to the upcoming winter.

Right now there is a huge amount of uncertainty going into the upcoming 20-21 ski season. They expect overall destination/travel ski visits to be down, but by how much is unknown. It will vary alot by resort and their target markets/demographics. Advanced pass sales are down and/or people waiting to see what the season will look like. The resorts are making contingency plans for potential capacity constraints, social distancing in facilities, and even capping/lottery systems access if required. This all adds uncertainty and well.

Also a huge amount of uncertainty around the school and school break situation in the winter/spring semesters. No one knows if it will still be mostly virtual/remote, if some will be back in-person, if breaks will still fall as scheduled. Many universities have already cancelled spring break since they don't want students to come/go from their campus bubble.

The resorts that do a lot business from driving-range traffic, in particularly most of Colorado and Utah will still get the Front Range / DEN & SLC locals respectively. The more remote and air travel dependent are a big unknown.

Ski resorts are a bit different than the National Park demand. Skiing is far more expensive and far more barriers to entry. Its very upper class sport, particularly for the travel set.
There is also a disproportionate amount of skiers that are 50, if not 60, 70+ that fall into the higher risk categories of the virus. They may be hesitant to travel as much.
Also, its not just the ski on-the-snow experience, its also the apres-ski and other winter activities that people like to enjoy.

Destination ski resorts really only make money for about 8 weeks out of the season. The 2-week stretch over the Christmas/ Holiday period, and the ~6 week period from mid-Feb around Presidents Day weekend until the end of March.

The die-hards, the hardcore passion bunch are a lock to ski this winter. The more casual ones, the families from Georgia that some years go skiing in Colorado or go to Florida for Spring Break are a big unknown. Some resorts, in particular Vail & Aspen get a sizable amount of international skiers from the UK, Mexico, and South America. There will be virtually no international destination skiers this winter.

I do think if the ski resorts can operate reasonably well through the Holiday period, then people may try to go over the more traditional winter/spring break periods in Feb/March.
So yes, ski resorts will be open. Business will be down under all scenarios. Air travel to destination resorts will be down under all scenarios. The question is to what extent.


This week Vail Resorts announced their plans for the 2020/2021 season and it is a reservation system with priority to pass holders. They will be allowed to book their preferred days prior to individuals purchasing lift tickets for specific days. While they know the majority of days will be less than their specified capacity it is the holidays which will be of concern and as mentioned above the times when post people travel in for skiing. This policy may increase the purchase of passes this season and not impact travel or others may just not worry about flying in this year and being flexible in which resorts they go to based on snow conditions. Vail does operate 34 resorts in North America.
318, 319, 320, 321, 332, 333, 388, 707, 717, 722, 732, 733, 734, 73Q, 735, 73G, 738, 7M8, 739, 752, 753, 742, 74L, 744, 762, 763, 772, 77L, 77W, 789, 142, CN1, CR2, CR7, DC8, DH2, DH8, D8Q, D10, D95, EM2, ER3, ER4, E70, 100, J31, M11, M83, M88, M90, SF3

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos