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ScottishDavie
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Easyjet sued for discrimination by woman forced to move seat

Tue Aug 25, 2020 3:33 pm

https://simpleflying.com/easyjet-sued-passenger-moved/

Good luck to her. I'm a regular Easyjet passenger and a big fan but it's the 21st century and they should have had a clear policy on this sort of nonsense (if you don't want a woman sitting next to you, get off the aircraft) instead of apparently leaving the cabin crew to sort it out.
 
ChrisEtihad272
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Re: Easyjet sued for discrimination by woman forced to move seat

Tue Aug 25, 2020 3:42 pm

They should of kicked the Man and his son off instead. this is why Tui stopped doing TLV From Manchester, complete nightmare to seat passengers
 
IFlyVeryLittle
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Re: Easyjet sued for discrimination by woman forced to move seat

Tue Aug 25, 2020 3:43 pm

Anyone can sue for anything (though not sure of the rules in the UK). Wake me when a decision is rendered.
 
Sokes
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Re: Easyjet sued for discrimination by woman forced to move seat

Tue Aug 25, 2020 3:52 pm

I assume liberal Jews have similar conflicts with othodox Jews like liberal Muslims with orthodox Muslims?
A clash of Weltanschauung.

I know the topic is in aviation. How not to become political?
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
IAHWorldflyer
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Re: Easyjet sued for discrimination by woman forced to move seat

Tue Aug 25, 2020 3:52 pm

If the gentleman "can't" do something that could be reasonably expected on a commercial flight, he should not travel that way. It is his problem, not hers.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Easyjet sued for discrimination by woman forced to move seat

Tue Aug 25, 2020 4:16 pm

I still can't believe that this sorta nonsense isn't sorted out already with communicable policy.


IAHWorldflyer wrote:
If the gentleman "can't" do something that could be reasonably expected on a commercial flight, he should not travel that way. It is his problem, not hers.

Exactly. Just because *he* has chosen not to leave the Bronze Age, doesn't make it anyone else's problem!
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: Easyjet sued for discrimination by woman forced to move seat

Tue Aug 25, 2020 4:21 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
I still can't believe that this sorta nonsense isn't sorted out already with communicable policy.

IAHWorldflyer wrote:
If the gentleman "can't" do something that could be reasonably expected on a commercial flight, he should not travel that way. It is his problem, not hers.

Exactly. Just because *he* has chosen not to leave the Bronze Age, doesn't make it anyone else's problem!


Didn't we do this once already, with KLM, about a month ago?

"KLM slap on the wrist for discrimination"
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1449489&p=22339879
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
Aptivaboy
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Re: Easyjet sued for discrimination by woman forced to move seat

Tue Aug 25, 2020 5:07 pm

Exactly. Just because *he* has chosen not to leave the Bronze Age, doesn't make it anyone else's problem!


Bronze Age! Love it!
 
Ziyulu
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Re: Easyjet sued for discrimination by woman forced to move seat

Tue Aug 25, 2020 5:12 pm

Are there any group of two seats on this narrowbody aircraft?
 
VSMUT
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Re: Easyjet sued for discrimination by woman forced to move seat

Tue Aug 25, 2020 5:43 pm

Ziyulu wrote:
Are there any group of two seats on this narrowbody aircraft?


If it's an A320, nope. It's 3+3 all the way. The A321 might have a single row by the aft-mid emergency exit doors, where a FA is seated facing backwards, but I've never been in a 240-seat A321, so I couldn't tell you for certain. But even then, they might have to sit next to a female FA for takeoff and landing.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Easyjet sued for discrimination by woman forced to move seat

Tue Aug 25, 2020 5:45 pm

IAHWorldflyer wrote:
If the gentleman "can't" do something that could be reasonably expected on a commercial flight, he should not travel that way. It is his problem, not hers.

I agree. As a father of daughters, the woman should sue. These policies must end (in my strong opinion).

Lightsaber
Winter is coming.
 
sabby
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Re: Easyjet sued for discrimination by woman forced to move seat

Tue Aug 25, 2020 6:03 pm

If the courts rules in favor of her (hopefully a very large fine), they should force it on both the airlines and the orthodox passenger. If someone doesn't want anyone else to sit next to them, they should buy that seat. At the same time, no airlines should entertain this kind of requests, even more so when the other passengers have paid for their seat choice.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Easyjet sued for discrimination by woman forced to move seat

Tue Aug 25, 2020 6:16 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
I still can't believe that this sorta nonsense isn't sorted out already with communicable policy.


IAHWorldflyer wrote:
If the gentleman "can't" do something that could be reasonably expected on a commercial flight, he should not travel that way. It is his problem, not hers.

Exactly. Just because *he* has chosen not to leave the Bronze Age, doesn't make it anyone else's problem!


Yes, but this is the nonsense we get when carriers choose to indulge his choice rather than confront it.

Boot him, and future travelers with that preference will determine how important it is to them and book another carrier to assure it.
 
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zeke
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Re: Easyjet sued for discrimination by woman forced to move seat

Tue Aug 25, 2020 6:29 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
Exactly. Just because *he* has chosen not to leave the Bronze Age, doesn't make it anyone else's problem!


As I understand the situation this is a case of religious freedom, the reason for not seating them together was not one of gender, it was due to religious beliefs.

It is totally unacceptable for one to characterise their beliefs as being “Bronze Age”, anyone regardless of religious belief should have access to public transport.

You and I may not share their religious beliefs, that does not make it okay to ridicule them for theirs.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
FGITD
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Re: Easyjet sued for discrimination by woman forced to move seat

Tue Aug 25, 2020 6:34 pm

zeke wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
Exactly. Just because *he* has chosen not to leave the Bronze Age, doesn't make it anyone else's problem!


As I understand the situation this is a case of religious freedom, the reason for not seating them together was not one of gender, it was due to religious beliefs.

It is totally unacceptable for one to characterise their beliefs as being “Bronze Age”, anyone regardless of religious belief should have access to public transport.

You and I may not share their religious beliefs, that does not make it okay to ridicule them for theirs.


Your religious freedom ends where my space begins. If I'm sitting in a seat and the person next to me has a belief that they can't sit next to me, that's their problem to make peace with, not mine
 
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zeke
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Re: Easyjet sued for discrimination by woman forced to move seat

Tue Aug 25, 2020 6:46 pm

FGITD wrote:
Your religious freedom ends where my space begins. If I'm sitting in a seat and the person next to me has a belief that they can't sit next to me, that's their problem to make peace with, not mine


The airline has the obligation to accommodate all passengers regardless of race, religion, or gender they identify as.

A passenger has no right over any space in an aircraft, they will be accommodated as reasonably directed by the airline.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Easyjet sued for discrimination by woman forced to move seat

Tue Aug 25, 2020 6:57 pm

zeke wrote:
A passenger has no right over any space in an aircraft

Maybe in this specific situation with airlines of the nations involved. But otherwise, you are speaking wayyy too generally.

Ask WN or several airlines in/through Canada about passengers having "no right over any space in an aircraft," because they have a few hundred thousand in missing funds, paid in legal damages, which suggests otherwise.....
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
Dieuwer
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Re: Easyjet sued for discrimination by woman forced to move seat

Tue Aug 25, 2020 6:59 pm

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
I still can't believe that this sorta nonsense isn't sorted out already with communicable policy.

IAHWorldflyer wrote:
If the gentleman "can't" do something that could be reasonably expected on a commercial flight, he should not travel that way. It is his problem, not hers.

Exactly. Just because *he* has chosen not to leave the Bronze Age, doesn't make it anyone else's problem!


Didn't we do this once already, with KLM, about a month ago?

"KLM slap on the wrist for discrimination"
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1449489&p=22339879


Indeed.
It will be an easy win for the woman.
 
FGITD
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Re: Easyjet sued for discrimination by woman forced to move seat

Tue Aug 25, 2020 7:01 pm

zeke wrote:
FGITD wrote:
Your religious freedom ends where my space begins. If I'm sitting in a seat and the person next to me has a belief that they can't sit next to me, that's their problem to make peace with, not mine


The airline has the obligation to accommodate all passengers regardless of race, religion, or gender they identify as.

A passenger has no right over any space in an aircraft, they will be accommodated as reasonably directed by the airline.


Understandable, and I realize this is a wormhole to go down. But at what point does accommodating a religious need allow gender discrimination?

If you were a captain, which I believe you in fact are, and the chief purser came to you after boarding with such a problem, what action would you take? You have a gentleman claiming religious discrimination, and a woman citing gender discrimination. Every seat is full

(Hypothetically, of course. And I mean this from genuine curiosity, no judgment being passed on how you would handle it)
 
ScottishDavie
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Re: Easyjet sued for discrimination by woman forced to move seat

Tue Aug 25, 2020 7:13 pm

zeke wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
Exactly. Just because *he* has chosen not to leave the Bronze Age, doesn't make it anyone else's problem!


As I understand the situation this is a case of religious freedom, the reason for not seating them together was not one of gender, it was due to religious beliefs.

It is totally unacceptable for one to characterise their beliefs as being “Bronze Age”, anyone regardless of religious belief should have access to public transport.

You and I may not share their religious beliefs, that does not make it okay to ridicule them for theirs.


Gender is a biological fact, religion is a matter of choice. Under no circumstances whatever should "religious freedom" be used as an excuse for misogyny or gender discrimination. Nobody is stopping the man and his son following their religion but if that religion means they can't sit next to a woman it is their problem, not the woman's. Front line cabin crew shouldn't have to balance "rights" as happened here.
Last edited by ScottishDavie on Tue Aug 25, 2020 7:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
argentinevol98
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Re: Easyjet sued for discrimination by woman forced to move seat

Tue Aug 25, 2020 7:14 pm

Based on the article, she's not asking for much money ($19,537 in USD). She ought to get most or all of that in a settlement.
Last edited by argentinevol98 on Tue Aug 25, 2020 7:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"He sospechado alguna vez que la única cosa sin misterio es la felicidad, porque se justifica por sí sola"-Jorge Luis Borges
 
amstone17
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Re: Easyjet sued for discrimination by woman forced to move seat

Tue Aug 25, 2020 7:24 pm

ScottishDavie wrote:
https://simpleflying.com/easyjet-sued-passenger-moved/

Good luck to her. I'm a regular Easyjet passenger and a big fan but it's the 21st century and they should have had a clear policy on this sort of nonsense (if you don't want a woman sitting next to you, get off the aircraft) instead of apparently leaving the cabin crew to sort it out.



This kind of stuff has been a problem for a long time, and now it is getting more and more attention. That airlines are still playing this game is disappointing, and the odd mental gymnastics it takes to be so set in your traditions that you can't be near a woman, but you can climb into a high tech device and fly around the world.... it's crazy.

The airline executives should also ask themselves a couple theoretical questions to see how fair this is. Would they accommodate an ultra religious Muslim man making the same demand? If not, why not? What's the difference?
 
Aptivaboy
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Re: Easyjet sued for discrimination by woman forced to move seat

Tue Aug 25, 2020 7:29 pm

A passenger has no right over any space in an aircraft, they will be accommodated as reasonably directed by the airline.


In the US, at least, that isn't strictly speaking true. Airlines here cannot discriminate on the basis of gender, amongst other things. From the DOT website, "Airlines must carry out their responsibility to provide safe and secure air travel in a non-discriminatory manner. Federal law prohibits airline personnel such as customer service personnel or flight crews from discriminating against airline passengers based on race, color, national origin, religion, sex, or ancestry."

While a pax may not possess an absolute right to a space, as you've pointed out, how they're treated with regards to said space is really what the issue is.

if it got to the point of the flight or cabin crew demanding that a female passenger switch seats because a male couldn't handle sitting next to her, then she'd have a reasonable complaint here in the US. I realize that the case in point occurred in Europe, but Western Europe generally has even more stringent anti-bias and discrimination laws than the US has, so I expect her to prevail. What Easyjet should have done was tried to move the male passengers (nothing in the story indicates that they attempted this). And, the ultraorthodox male passengers have to realize that this is the 21st Century and they won't simply be accommodated to assuage their feelings, nor should they be. Go out in public where 50% of the population is female, and you just might have to sit near a lady. That's just the reality. If you can't handle that, address the seating issue with the airline well beforehand to try to find an acceptable row of seats, or buy the extra seat. Simple.
 
Ziyulu
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Re: Easyjet sued for discrimination by woman forced to move seat

Tue Aug 25, 2020 7:32 pm

The problem is buying a 3rd seat does not guarantee it will remain empty since airlines oversell flights all the time.
 
Ziyulu
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Re: Easyjet sued for discrimination by woman forced to move seat

Tue Aug 25, 2020 7:33 pm

I'm also wondering if airlines would accommodate your request if you called them 48 hours prior to travel. Is this request similar to disabilities, infants, special meals, etc?
 
Varsity1
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Re: Easyjet sued for discrimination by woman forced to move seat

Tue Aug 25, 2020 7:48 pm

zeke wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
Exactly. Just because *he* has chosen not to leave the Bronze Age, doesn't make it anyone else's problem!


As I understand the situation this is a case of religious freedom, the reason for not seating them together was not one of gender, it was due to religious beliefs.

It is totally unacceptable for one to characterise their beliefs as being “Bronze Age”, anyone regardless of religious belief should have access to public transport.

You and I may not share their religious beliefs, that does not make it okay to ridicule them for theirs.


If you can't sit next to another member of the free will public, you need to purchase the 3rd seat next to yourself and your son, to accommodate that.

It's not the job of the airline to make modern society conform to your religion.
"PPRuNe will no longer allow discussions regarding Etihad Airlines, its employees, executives, agents, or other representatives. Such threads will be deleted." - ME3 thug airlines suing anyone who brings negative information public..
 
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zeke
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Re: Easyjet sued for discrimination by woman forced to move seat

Tue Aug 25, 2020 9:02 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
Ask WN or several airlines in/through Canada about passengers having "no right over any space in an aircraft," because they have a few hundred thousand in missing funds, paid in legal damages, which suggests otherwise.....


Show me case law where a passenger can demand where they sit on an aircraft, rather than sit where assigned by the airline.

FGITD wrote:
But at what point does accommodating a religious need allow gender discrimination?


They didn't from what I have read discriminate based on gender, they accommodated all passengers fairly and reasonably based upon all factors available. Asking a passenger to take different accommodation than initially assigned is something that would happen hundreds of time every day around the world,

FGITD wrote:
If you were a captain, which I believe you in fact are, and the chief purser came to you after boarding with such a problem, what action would you take?


Absolutely none, it wouldn't come to me, our crew are trained to contact our specialist teams which handle issues like this, there are approved procedures in place. In general, all passenger accommodation issues are dealt with by ground staff, not cabin crew. Our cabin crew are there for passenger safety, and that relationship they have with passengers can be impacted if there is a confrontation over accommodation occurs prior to departure.

ScottishDavie wrote:
Gender is a biological fact, religion is a matter of choice.


In this day and age, gender is not just a matter of biology, or what is written on some government issued document.

Aptivaboy wrote:
In the US, at least, that isn't strictly speaking true. Airlines here cannot discriminate on the basis of gender, amongst other things. From the DOT website, "Airlines must carry out their responsibility to provide safe and secure air travel in a non-discriminatory manner. Federal law prohibits airline personnel such as customer service personnel or flight crews from discriminating against airline passengers based on race, color, national origin, religion, sex, or ancestry."

While a pax may not possess an absolute right to a space, as you've pointed out, how they're treated with regards to said space is really what the issue is.


And that is what I think they have done here correctly, they are both required to accommodate passengers in a "safe and secure air travel in a non-discriminatory" based upon religion and sex. The reason for amending the passengers accommodation layout was not because of their sex, it was to accommodate in a non-discriminatory manor other passengers religious views.

Aptivaboy wrote:
if it got to the point of the flight or cabin crew demanding that a female passenger switch seats because a male couldn't handle sitting next to her, then she'd have a reasonable complaint here in the US.


It was not the person, it is their religious belief. No different to say a person of Muslim belief not being able to take pork products, or Buddhists taking beef products, it is not the person themselves that cannot handle these food products, it is their religious beliefs, and airlines have to accommodate that.

Varsity1 wrote:
If you can't sit next to another member of the free will public, you need to purchase the 3rd seat next to yourself and your son, to accommodate that.

It's not the job of the airline to make modern society conform to your religion.


It would be discriminatory if an airline required people of a certain religious belief to purchase an additional empty seat to accommodate them, and yes airlines do have accommodate all people regardless of religious beliefs.

This is a two way street, submitting yourself to being transported by an airline means you agree that would agree to abide by their policies, that would also mean their non discrimination by travel policy.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
BrianDromey
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Re: Easyjet sued for discrimination by woman forced to move seat

Tue Aug 25, 2020 9:27 pm

The text of the article details of El Als response to this. There have been multiple cases taken - and won. El Al now have a specific policy on this - if you’re not happy with your neighbours offload yourself. The crew cannot get involved.

It’s a difficult situation - here is the intersection of protected characteristics. I don’t know enough about this particular branch of Judaism to know if this mans request is reasonable from a religious point of view.
 
Aptivaboy
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Re: Easyjet sued for discrimination by woman forced to move seat

Tue Aug 25, 2020 9:30 pm

They didn't from what I have read discriminate based on gender, they accommodated all passengers fairly and reasonably based upon all factors available. Asking a passenger to take different accommodation than initially assigned is something that would happen hundreds of time every day around the world,


She paid extra for an aisle seat. Easyjet accepted her money - voluntary exchange - for said aisle seat. She reserved said aisle seat in Easyjet's own seat choice tool. Easyjet confirmed that seat, plus accepting the extra fee - valuable consideration. Then, Easyjet asked HER to move from the seat she'd paid extra for. That isn't accommodating, "all passengers fairly and reasonably." That's singling out the female who paid Easyjet EXTRA for a specific seat which she then didn't get to enjoy because two males were uncomfortable. Heck, I'm a guy and I think this is wrong.

And that is what I think they have done here correctly, they are both required to accommodate passengers in a "safe and secure air travel in a non-discriminatory" based upon religion and sex. The reason for amending the passengers accommodation layout was not because of their sex, it was to accommodate in a non-discriminatory manor other passengers religious views.


How is making a female move because a male is uncomfortable not discriminatory to her?
 
filejw
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Re: Easyjet sued for discrimination by woman forced to move seat

Tue Aug 25, 2020 10:08 pm

I used to fly a lot of JFK TLV and ran into this more than once . The funniest was when a FA came into flight deck just before departure to tell us two guys still wouldn’t take seats as the tried to intimidate other pax to switch seats . I happen to be the augment crew that night and had big plans for TLV the next day and didn’t want to be late . So I hustled downstairs and these Ultra religionists types are right there I asked what was going on and an FA and some pax gave me the rundown! I told these two guys that I had 401 other pax that want to go to TLV on time and that they could either sit in their assign seats or get off . They took their seats !
 
TheWorm123
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Re: Easyjet sued for discrimination by woman forced to move seat

Tue Aug 25, 2020 10:24 pm

zeke wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
Exactly. Just because *he* has chosen not to leave the Bronze Age, doesn't make it anyone else's problem!


As I understand the situation this is a case of religious freedom, the reason for not seating them together was not one of gender, it was due to religious beliefs.

It is totally unacceptable for one to characterise their beliefs as being “Bronze Age”, anyone regardless of religious belief should have access to public transport.

You and I may not share their religious beliefs, that does not make it okay to ridicule them for theirs.

We also have freedom from religion as a secular society, airlines shouldn't be indulging this nonsense at the expense of another paying passenger.
B752 B753 A332 A321 B738
 
loofaman
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Re: Easyjet sued for discrimination by woman forced to move seat

Tue Aug 25, 2020 10:28 pm

The male passengers were discriminating against the female passenger on the basis of her gender and the airline facilitated it. I see fault all round there.

Nobody on public transport should have to move to accommodate the views of another. Imagine if a white man refused to sit next to a black man, or a vegetarian refused to sit next to someone eating a meal containing meat. If you can't deal with sitting next to someone you don't like, don't use public transport.

I also agree with the sentiments expressed that the female passengers biological gender is fixed whereas the male passengers religion is optional. As such, her right not to be treated differently as a woman is greater than him having his religious views accommodated.
 
alfa164
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Re: Easyjet sued for discrimination by woman forced to move seat

Tue Aug 25, 2020 10:44 pm

loofaman wrote:
Nobody on public transport should have to move to accommodate the views of another. Imagine if a white man refused to sit next to a black man, or a vegetarian refused to sit next to someone eating a meal containing meat. If you can't deal with sitting next to someone you don't like, don't use public transport. I also agree with the sentiments expressed that the female passengers biological gender is fixed whereas the male passengers religion is optional. As such, her right not to be treated differently as a woman is greater than him having his religious views accommodated.


:checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark: . This. . Our most comparable religious group here in the USA might be the Amish; they know what the modern world looks like, and they choose to live their lives in the old-fashioned way - normally abandoning the use of modern transport included. They do not expect everyone outside their religion to kowtow to their beliefs, or to change their ways to accommodate them. They maintain their traditions, but they respect others. To cling to provincial dogmas and to expect everyone else around you to entertain you is an anathema the civilized peoples of the world as a whole.


zeke wrote:
It is totally unacceptable for one to characterise their beliefs as being “Bronze Age”, anyone regardless of religious belief should have access to public transport.


Have yu ever heard the saying, "If the shoe fits... wear it"?
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
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LAX772LR
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Re: Easyjet sued for discrimination by woman forced to move seat

Tue Aug 25, 2020 11:02 pm

zeke wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
Ask WN or several airlines in/through Canada about passengers having "no right over any space in an aircraft," because they have a few hundred thousand in missing funds, paid in legal damages, which suggests otherwise.....

Show me case law where a passenger can demand where they sit on an aircraft, rather than sit where assigned by the airline.

Non sequitur. You're making the claim of passengers "having no right over any space in an aircraft," and that, as referenced, is a falsehood.

That precedent may or may not (yet) exist for the specific dynamics of this instance, does not change the above.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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Blimpie
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Re: Easyjet sued for discrimination by woman forced to move seat

Tue Aug 25, 2020 11:40 pm

ScottishDavie wrote:
zeke wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
Exactly. Just because *he* has chosen not to leave the Bronze Age, doesn't make it anyone else's problem!


As I understand the situation this is a case of religious freedom, the reason for not seating them together was not one of gender, it was due to religious beliefs.

It is totally unacceptable for one to characterize their beliefs as being “Bronze Age”, anyone regardless of religious belief should have access to public transport.

You and I may not share their religious beliefs, that does not make it okay to ridicule them for theirs.


Gender is a biological fact, religion is a matter of choice. Under no circumstances whatever should "religious freedom" be used as an excuse for misogyny or gender discrimination. Nobody is stopping the man and his son following their religion but if that religion means they can't sit next to a woman it is their problem, not the woman's. Front line cabin crew shouldn't have to balance "rights" as happened here.


Yes and no. In America (and many western cultures) today gender is indeed a choice (sex at birth is not), and religion may not. If someone was born in to a Hindu, or Muslim, or whatever household with two strict practicing person, one would be raised and not see there being any other choice. There's a reason why the term "recovering catholic" is used by my neighbor who chose to switch from Catholic to Mormon; however, to many, they do not see it as a choice, nor would even consider that an option, just as many would not consider changing their gender.
Now get the hell off of my lawn your dang kids!
 
Varsity1
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Re: Easyjet sued for discrimination by woman forced to move seat

Wed Aug 26, 2020 12:12 am

zeke wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
If you can't sit next to another member of the free will public, you need to purchase the 3rd seat next to yourself and your son, to accommodate that.

It's not the job of the airline to make modern society conform to your religion.


It would be discriminatory if an airline required people of a certain religious belief to purchase an additional empty seat to accommodate them, and yes airlines do have accommodate all people regardless of religious beliefs.

This is a two way street, submitting yourself to being transported by an airline means you agree that would agree to abide by their policies, that would also mean their non discrimination by travel policy.


Your logic is totally ridiculous!

If my religion says I am only allowed to fly on an airplane all by myself, do they need to accommodate that too!?

No.

If you can't sit next to another human, get off. Full stop.
"PPRuNe will no longer allow discussions regarding Etihad Airlines, its employees, executives, agents, or other representatives. Such threads will be deleted." - ME3 thug airlines suing anyone who brings negative information public..
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Easyjet sued for discrimination by woman forced to move seat

Wed Aug 26, 2020 1:58 am

Varsity1 wrote:
zeke wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:


It would be discriminatory if an airline required people of a certain religious belief to purchase an additional empty seat to accommodate them, and yes airlines do have accommodate all people regardless of religious beliefs.

This is a two way street, submitting yourself to being transported by an airline means you agree that would agree to abide by their policies, that would also mean their non discrimination by travel policy.


Your logic is totally ridiculous!

If my religion says I am only allowed to fly on an airplane all by myself, do they need to accommodate that too!?

No.

If you can't sit next to another human, get off. Full stop.

I'll put it another way, when you buy a seat, you have rights to that seat, but the contract of carriage gives no say on the neighboring seats. None. If someone wants a say into who may sit there, buy another seat.

Otherwise, do as I do when I don't like who was assigned to sit next to me, put on the headphones. (Usually due to smell or alcohol). I also always put down the arm rests (no invasion).

Religious accommodation is water and a vegitarian meal.

It is non discriminatory. You have say only within the contract of carriage, one's seat.

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2175301
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Re: Easyjet sued for discrimination by woman forced to move seat

Wed Aug 26, 2020 2:12 am

alfa164 wrote:
Our most comparable religious group here in the USA might be the Amish; they know what the modern world looks like, and they choose to live their lives in the old-fashioned way - normally abandoning the use of modern transport included. They do not expect everyone outside their religion to kowtow to their beliefs, or to change their ways to accommodate them. They maintain their traditions, but they respect others. To cling to provincial dogmas and to expect everyone else around you to entertain you is an anathema the civilized peoples of the world as a whole.


I believe you are correct. I know for a fact that while the Amish chose not to use automobiles and other things... that in an emergency situation for for long distance business travel will allow themselves to be transported in automobiles, or use modern medical technology and other things. They have their preference; but, do recognize that they need to make exceptions for certain situations.

Have a great day,
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Easyjet sued for discrimination by woman forced to move seat

Wed Aug 26, 2020 2:43 am

2175301 wrote:
alfa164 wrote:
Our most comparable religious group here in the USA might be the Amish; they know what the modern world looks like, and they choose to live their lives in the old-fashioned way - normally abandoning the use of modern transport included. They do not expect everyone outside their religion to kowtow to their beliefs, or to change their ways to accommodate them. They maintain their traditions, but they respect others. To cling to provincial dogmas and to expect everyone else around you to entertain you is an anathema the civilized peoples of the world as a whole.


I believe you are correct. I know for a fact that while the Amish chose not to use automobiles and other things... that in an emergency situation for for long distance business travel will allow themselves to be transported in automobiles, or use modern medical technology and other things. They have their preference; but, do recognize that they need to make exceptions for certain situations.

Have a great day,

The Amish are different. My grandfather was permanently barred from their communities at least four times. He would seize children for emergency medical reasons (appendectomy, measles, pneumonia, always a good reason) intern them in the Navy hospital (he was a Navy surgeon back then), treat them, then, when no longer in need of prohibited medications (e.g., if Aspirin was enough, send them home, even if they wouldn't take it), return the child to the parents.

That is different. He was always having a dinner in an Amish home within 30 days of his permanent prohibition from entering the communities, although he would have to stand in front of the community and explain his reasoning for seizing a child (not a problem, always initiated by concerned Amish).

The dinner invites often specifically excluded his wife. Sometimes he would refuse because of that, sometimes he would join as he was assigned by the Navy to help oversee their communities medical needs. (This was post WW2 and many Amish were medics). But they were always polite to my Nana. I inherited the desk and paintings she bought from them. They were professional to her in the hospital (she was a Navy nurse). They were 'proper' to her when she was a customer. We accepted the interactions in their home was on their terms. When having to ride in an ambulance, they were the 'parent passenger.' (Mock protesting... to say the least, on having to ride a forbidden convenience.)

When on transit (the plane), there must be respect for other passengers. As a father of daughters, I wouldn't accept one having to move from a paid for assigned seat.

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aeromoe
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Re: Easyjet sued for discrimination by woman forced to move seat

Wed Aug 26, 2020 3:31 am

Aptivaboy wrote:
I realize that the case in point occurred in Europe...


Actually, the linked article states it occurred in Israel, prior to departure for London. Israel is in Western Asia.
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Francoflier
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Re: Easyjet sued for discrimination by woman forced to move seat

Wed Aug 26, 2020 4:28 am

Why do we tolerate these kinds of discriminations in this day and age?

If I openly declare women to be inferior and treat them like different class citizens, I'll (rightfully) be told to shut up and sod off. But if it's my 'religion' then people have to accommodate my blatant bigotry and prejudice?

People who live in these areas where archaically rigid religious-controlled societies need to understand that they must adhere to the rules of the modern World outside of their boundaries the moment they step out of it, just like visitors to their countries are expected to abide by their rules.
Stepping on an international flight, especially of a foreign airline, should count as stepping outside of these boundaries in this instance.

They also had a choice of flying with a local airline that is more accommodating of their need if they so desired.
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Toinou
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Re: Easyjet sued for discrimination by woman forced to move seat

Wed Aug 26, 2020 4:33 am

Contrary to what many people said, I think there is no conflict here between freedom of religion and gender discrimination. As it is generally understood in Europe (and the woman is suing in UK, so this must be the main idea), freedom of religion is essentially a freedom of thought, you can think whatever you want. Freedom of action, whether it's motivated by religion of not, it limited as your actions cannot harm the freedom of or discriminate another person. So in this case, the case seems rather clear to me.
 
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Re: Easyjet sued for discrimination by woman forced to move seat

Wed Aug 26, 2020 8:38 am

The fact that it happened in Israel probably does not matter as it was inside the aircraft. as far as I understand (yet I may be wrong), once inside, the law of the country of registration is applied, and thus it would be G- (not sure if they occasionally rotate HB- or OE- aircraft to flights from LON to TLV). Thus suing in the UK sounds logical.
Everyone in the industry should hope that she wins. If she loses, religious freedom will start covering excess baggage, business class for economy fare, etc.
 
T4thH
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Re: Easyjet sued for discrimination by woman forced to move seat

Wed Aug 26, 2020 11:05 am

In my country (Germany), human rights are absolute, end of the story. The human rights of these two guys ends at the seat of the woman. They are allowed to leave the place (if others are available) or to leave the plane.
In many/most countries in Europe/EU, I expect, that other passengers will be not willed to accept such a case and start to complain (or I hope so). I personal will never be willed, to accept such an extremism in any cases. And I do not care, from whom, far right, far left, racism, gender'ism, religious e.g.

Human rights are absolute.
 
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Re: Easyjet sued for discrimination by woman forced to move seat

Wed Aug 26, 2020 11:25 am

I am worming for an airline and we fly regularly to Tel Aviv ( well we did before Covid 19 happened ).

This would not happen on my plane. As a purser I would tell them they bought 2 seats and they can’t choose who is sitting next to them , behind them or whatsoever. If they don’t like it they are free to leave the aircraft ! Full Stop !
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Retaliation
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Re: Easyjet sued for discrimination by woman forced to move seat

Wed Aug 26, 2020 11:43 am

'Religious Class' should be introduced in Flights to such destinations.
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MillwallSean
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Re: Easyjet sued for discrimination by woman forced to move seat

Wed Aug 26, 2020 12:30 pm

This is an interesting case. the article mentions that ElAl faced this and that Israeli law stated that is was forbidden.Easyjet management, whoever that's in charge of this area, has been asleep at the wheel. It is there job to know and ensure that policy and process is updated to reflect relevant legislation.

Putting a pilot in a situation where he/she should make a judgment call in an area where he/she clearly has zero competence does not meet basic governance code for corporations, hence something has gone wrong here.
Pilots authority has in European courts been akin to that of a branch-manager. His/hers role is in regard to non flying duties to ensure that decisions made adheres to relevant legislation and that company process and policy (rules) are followed. If any corporate staff believes that they have authority to act outside such framework, that is clear violation of corporate governance codes and it means that their employer is guaranteed to loose in a European court.

In this case it is, based on the article, clear that this issue has already been tested in an Israeli court and based on that judgement its been established that airline representatives (be that pilot or flight attendants) cannot discriminate based on gender. This means that asking a female to move because another passengers beliefs forbid them from being seated next to females contravene Israeli law, in short requesting this is illegal and the crew member is committing an offence.
There is no ifs and buts there. Its law.

Hence if the lady sues under Israeli jurisdiction, Easyjet will be convicted and that they will need to ensure that management update processes and policies so that flying staff knows what rules to adhere to. I wouldn't be surprised if this lady is supported by most flying staff either. Having to deal with issues like this is never easy and without clear process outlined by management it is difficult for any company representative to handle the situation and feel confident that they have done so correctly.
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Exeiowa
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Re: Easyjet sued for discrimination by woman forced to move seat

Wed Aug 26, 2020 1:34 pm

You can tell if something is really important to a person when they will still uphold a value at a detriment to themselves. So if they really believed in this principle they would have themselves refrained from flying under the circumstances.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Easyjet sued for discrimination by woman forced to move seat

Wed Aug 26, 2020 1:39 pm

Res Bronze Age, I think the religion being discussed claims bronze age heritage and credentials.
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WorldFlier
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Re: Easyjet sued for discrimination by woman forced to move seat

Wed Aug 26, 2020 1:57 pm

ScottishDavie wrote:
https://simpleflying.com/easyjet-sued-passenger-moved/

Good luck to her. I'm a regular Easyjet passenger and a big fan but it's the 21st century and they should have had a clear policy on this sort of nonsense (if you don't want a woman sitting next to you, get off the aircraft) instead of apparently leaving the cabin crew to sort it out.



I agree. Imagine if someone said they didn't want to sit next a POC?

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