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cledaybuck
Posts: 1725
Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2016 6:07 pm

Re: American to cut 19,000 jobs in October

Tue Aug 25, 2020 8:14 pm

32andBelow wrote:
alberchico wrote:
What are the chances of Congress giving the industry more aid to postpone these massive layoffs ?

100%. It’ll be lumped in with the next stimulus bill

What next stimulus bill? I think it is much closer to 0% than 100%
As we celebrate mediocrity, all the boys upstairs want to see, how much you'll pay for what you used to get for free.
 
Boof02671
Topic Author
Posts: 2121
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: American to cut 19,000 jobs in October

Tue Aug 25, 2020 8:19 pm

cledaybuck wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
alberchico wrote:
What are the chances of Congress giving the industry more aid to postpone these massive layoffs ?

100%. It’ll be lumped in with the next stimulus bill

What next stimulus bill? I think it is much closer to 0% than 100%

Lawmakers are still talking behind the scenes. Pelosi came down to $1.5 trillion and the republicans are working on a new package of two separate bills.
 
Moosefire
Posts: 148
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2018 12:47 pm

Re: American to cut 19,000 jobs in October

Tue Aug 25, 2020 8:25 pm

There’s entirely too much capacity. If CARES 2.0 is enacted how long should it be for? And when it expires should it be extended a third or fourth time? The initial shock has passed, my bros that are looking at furloughs at UA & DL have already found jobs elsewhere. At some point the market needs to right size to match demand.
MD-11F/C-17A Pilot
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 8240
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: American to cut 19,000 jobs in October

Tue Aug 25, 2020 8:40 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
Airlines provide interstate commerce and are a national security issue.


Yes, and that's why the industry got allocated ~$32 Billion in grants to have time to plan to downsize. The keep-people-employed benefit was secondary -- look at the cutbacks in so many other industries that are met with a shrug. The maintain-service benefits were secondary - the DOT could have extended that obligation and did not.

I don't know where you're getting the idea that these payroll support funds came out of the Airport and Airway Trust Fund and aren't borrowed money. In fact the CARES Act suspended certain taxes that support the Trust Fund:

Section 4007 of the Coronavirus Aid, Relief, and Economic Security (CARES) Act (PDF) (P.L. 116-136) imposes an excise tax holiday period, effective March 27, 2020 through December 31, 2020, on certain excise taxes that fund the Airport and Airway Trust Fund (AATF). AATF deposits will be affected based on a pause in collections. During this period, collection of federal excise taxes that apply to commercial operations are suspended, including:

Taxes on transportation of persons and property by air. Aviation fuel for commercial use.


https://www.faa.gov/about/budget/aatf/
 
panam330
Posts: 2162
Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2004 11:58 am

Re: American to cut 19,000 jobs in October

Tue Aug 25, 2020 9:40 pm

Moosefire wrote:
my bros that are looking at furloughs at UA & DL have already found jobs elsewhere. At some point the market needs to right size to match demand.

Flying jobs? Where on earth did they find those? Even regionals are contracting, and FX/UP pilots currently being hired have been in the pipeline since before Covid.
 
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TWA772LR
Posts: 7310
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2011 6:12 am

Re: American to cut 19,000 jobs in October

Tue Aug 25, 2020 9:59 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
Lootess wrote:
AA has way too many FAs, that is for sure.

Not Pre Covid. Every airline has too many employees. All airlines are over staffed and all will lay-off, early retirements and voluntary leaves. It’s no exclusive to AA.

Numbers I’m hearing for FAs is 8,099.

I guess it's a good thing I didn't get the offer in January of last year!
When wasn't America great?


The thoughts and opinions shared under this username are mine and are not influenced by my employer.
 
32andBelow
Posts: 5001
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:54 am

Re: American to cut 19,000 jobs in October

Tue Aug 25, 2020 10:07 pm

panam330 wrote:
Moosefire wrote:
my bros that are looking at furloughs at UA & DL have already found jobs elsewhere. At some point the market needs to right size to match demand.

Flying jobs? Where on earth did they find those? Even regionals are contracting, and FX/UP pilots currently being hired have been in the pipeline since before Covid.

Air taxis and small regional cargo and passenger airlines are finally filling their ranks they were never able to. But that’s going to be full pretty quickly imo.
 
Sooner787
Posts: 2719
Joined: Thu Jul 18, 2013 1:44 am

Re: American to cut 19,000 jobs in October

Tue Aug 25, 2020 10:40 pm

Honestly, I hope AA can survive this storm or everyone with AA will be on the streets.

If they have to file Ch 11 BK again, I don't see any other airlines stepping up with a merger proposal.

UA & DL and other US carriers might just decide best thing for their long term survival is for a big rival to go bust.
Then they could pick up routes and planes for pennies on the dollar.
 
32andBelow
Posts: 5001
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:54 am

Re: American to cut 19,000 jobs in October

Tue Aug 25, 2020 10:42 pm

Sooner787 wrote:
Honestly, I hope AA can survive this storm or everyone with AA will be on the streets.

If they have to file Ch 11 BK again, I don't see any other airlines stepping up with a merger proposal.

UA & DL and other US carriers might just decide best thing for their long term survival is for a big rival to go bust.
Then they could pick up routes and planes for pennies on the dollar.

Maybe Alaska will buy them. I don’t think it’s that crazy. American west was tiny
 
Moosefire
Posts: 148
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2018 12:47 pm

Re: American to cut 19,000 jobs in October

Tue Aug 25, 2020 11:03 pm

panam330 wrote:
Moosefire wrote:
my bros that are looking at furloughs at UA & DL have already found jobs elsewhere. At some point the market needs to right size to match demand.

Flying jobs? Where on earth did they find those? Even regionals are contracting, and FX/UP pilots currently being hired have been in the pipeline since before Covid.


yes... flying jobs. In one case a 3 year AGR (military) role, the other was corporate. FedEx is hiring beyond the pool now, I can’t say anything for certain about UPS.
MD-11F/C-17A Pilot
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 8240
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: American to cut 19,000 jobs in October

Tue Aug 25, 2020 11:08 pm

Sooner787 wrote:
Honestly, I hope AA can survive this storm or everyone with AA will be on the streets.

If they have to file Ch 11 BK again, I don't see any other airlines stepping up with a merger proposal.


Chapter 11 doesn't mean liquidation - or even wiping out shareholders. (See AA's exit from Ch 11 in 2013.)

The problem is that a firm needs financing to get through Ch 11 where it casts off debt, terminates leases, etc. So, AA can't wait until everything of value is mortgaged and all the cash is gone before filing Ch 11. If it goes that late it won't/might not be able to obtain sufficient Debtor In Possession (DIP) financing to keep operating, and could be forced into an involuntary Ch 7 liquidation by creditors.

I don't see the appeal to creditors of wiping out debt and letting AS get the assets for pennies a la TWA, but we haven't seen a carrier with 900+ mainline planes get liquidated, either. There would be a lot of assets to market -- in a time where few domestic carriers will have $ (and probably no Congressional appetite to relax foreign ownership restrictions and see it get sold off to sovereign funds of non-democratic nations unnamed). IMHO a merger is an AA employee fantasy to keep their jobs and seniority. Regrets.

I've asserted before that if one of AA/DL/UA gets liquidated the U.S. govt will provide support for the other two to maintain competition over intercontinental route networks and service to midsize cities. I do mean liquidated, not 'just' Ch 11 filings.
 
Boof02671
Topic Author
Posts: 2121
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: American to cut 19,000 jobs in October

Tue Aug 25, 2020 11:15 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
Airlines provide interstate commerce and are a national security issue.


Yes, and that's why the industry got allocated ~$32 Billion in grants to have time to plan to downsize. The keep-people-employed benefit was secondary -- look at the cutbacks in so many other industries that are met with a shrug. The maintain-service benefits were secondary - the DOT could have extended that obligation and did not.

I don't know where you're getting the idea that these payroll support funds came out of the Airport and Airway Trust Fund and aren't borrowed money. In fact the CARES Act suspended certain taxes that support the Trust Fund:

Section 4007 of the Coronavirus Aid, Relief, and Economic Security (CARES) Act (PDF) (P.L. 116-136) imposes an excise tax holiday period, effective March 27, 2020 through December 31, 2020, on certain excise taxes that fund the Airport and Airway Trust Fund (AATF). AATF deposits will be affected based on a pause in collections. During this period, collection of federal excise taxes that apply to commercial operations are suspended, including:

Taxes on transportation of persons and property by air. Aviation fuel for commercial use.


https://www.faa.gov/about/budget/aatf/

They only got $25 billion and that only covered 75% of salary costs

The stock and other items pledged were placed in the Aviation Trust Fund per Munichin.
 
NYCVIE
Posts: 288
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2016 11:01 pm

Re: American to cut 19,000 jobs in October

Tue Aug 25, 2020 11:22 pm

I agree with LAXintl, I don't think there should be an extension to CARES. I definitely don't want people to lose jobs but the gov't can't keep subsidizing this particular industry (where there's no reliable end in sight to these losses) while letting others go up in flames and not even agreeing on economic stimulus for ordinary Americans.. All airlines will have to downsize and that will result in job losses at some point. And not to get too political but the optics of continuing to provide tens of billions for employees like pilots to sit at home continue to rake in high salaries (whose employers gambled away money that would be useful now with things like stock buybacks) while continuing to threaten to defund things like the USPS aren't great.


Galore wrote:
sprxUSA wrote:
Galore wrote:
So is this going to be an example of reverse age discrimination if AA gets rid of their young FAs and pilots? It’s just weird that this will bias their workforce (and their customer experience) towards in my experience often disgruntled FAs in their 60s.


Um, it is done by seniority regardless of age.....


Yeah, I understand, but seniority, as the word itself suggests, implies that juniors get discriminated against seniors. So while its legally not age discrimination, the effect is the same (but biased against younger employees).

From a customer point of view, this is problematic as FAs are critical to the experience and if people get furloughed just by seniority and not performance, the product will suffer.

I’ve been on many, many flights on AA and UA to Asia and these usually get very senior FAs (because they want to get over their hours with as few flights as possible, so they bid and win these ultra long haul flights based on their seniority).

The customer experience is often dismal because in my own experience on so many flights, chances are the FA is totally over this type of job after 30 years of continuous downhill slides in job conditions, flying public, RIFs and the difficult work of a FA in general.

I actually had my best experiences on Spirit with their much more motivated crews than on these ultra long haul legacy senior FA staffed flights. It’ll probably become extra unbearable once these disgruntled 60 year old FAs are re-assigned from their preferred few Asia trips a month to many domestic short haul flights that were done by their now furloughed junior colleagues.

That’s just a recipe for a bad product.


At the moment right now considering how relatively few people are flying, the current minimal interaction between FAs and customers, and the increasingly realistic proposition that things remain this way for the foreseeable future I don't think AA or any other airline is worried about a "bad" product- at least not worried enough to waste money to preserve a "good" product (which not to start a fire but many would not describe AA as having anyways).
 
32andBelow
Posts: 5001
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:54 am

Re: American to cut 19,000 jobs in October

Tue Aug 25, 2020 11:22 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
Airlines provide interstate commerce and are a national security issue.


Yes, and that's why the industry got allocated ~$32 Billion in grants to have time to plan to downsize. The keep-people-employed benefit was secondary -- look at the cutbacks in so many other industries that are met with a shrug. The maintain-service benefits were secondary - the DOT could have extended that obligation and did not.

I don't know where you're getting the idea that these payroll support funds came out of the Airport and Airway Trust Fund and aren't borrowed money. In fact the CARES Act suspended certain taxes that support the Trust Fund:

Section 4007 of the Coronavirus Aid, Relief, and Economic Security (CARES) Act (PDF) (P.L. 116-136) imposes an excise tax holiday period, effective March 27, 2020 through December 31, 2020, on certain excise taxes that fund the Airport and Airway Trust Fund (AATF). AATF deposits will be affected based on a pause in collections. During this period, collection of federal excise taxes that apply to commercial operations are suspended, including:

Taxes on transportation of persons and property by air. Aviation fuel for commercial use.


https://www.faa.gov/about/budget/aatf/

They only got $25 billion and that only covered 75% of salary costs

The stock and other items pledged were placed in the Aviation Trust Fund per Munichin.

Are they really that incapable of taking a couple
Losing quarters after years of profits?
 
Boof02671
Topic Author
Posts: 2121
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: American to cut 19,000 jobs in October

Tue Aug 25, 2020 11:22 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
Sooner787 wrote:
Honestly, I hope AA can survive this storm or everyone with AA will be on the streets.

If they have to file Ch 11 BK again, I don't see any other airlines stepping up with a merger proposal.


Chapter 11 doesn't mean liquidation - or even wiping out shareholders. (See AA's exit from Ch 11 in 2013.)

The problem is that a firm needs financing to get through Ch 11 where it casts off debt, terminates leases, etc. So, AA can't wait until everything of value is mortgaged and all the cash is gone before filing Ch 11. If it goes that late it won't/might not be able to obtain sufficient Debtor In Possession (DIP) financing to keep operating, and could be forced into an involuntary Ch 7 liquidation by creditors.

I don't see the appeal to creditors of wiping out debt and letting AS get the assets for pennies a la TWA, but we haven't seen a carrier with 900+ mainline planes get liquidated, either. There would be a lot of assets to market -- in a time where few domestic carriers will have $ (and probably no Congressional appetite to relax foreign ownership restrictions and see it get sold off to sovereign funds of non-democratic nations unnamed). IMHO a merger is an AA employee fantasy to keep their jobs and seniority. Regrets.

I've asserted before that if one of AA/DL/UA gets liquidated the U.S. govt will provide support for the other two to maintain competition over intercontinental route networks and service to midsize cities. I do mean liquidated, not 'just' Ch 11 filings.

AA did wipeout the stock that’s why it’s on the NASDAQ and under a new symbol and stockholders only got 3.5% of new stock.

“ And as the airline prepares to exit bankruptcy and merge with US Airways following the settlement of a federal antitrust lawsuit, shareholders are poised to join the pay day. Under the restructuring agreement approved by the court, shareholders — who typically get nothing during a reorganization — are guaranteed 3.5 percent of the equity in the new combined airline. And they’re likely to recover more than that.”

https://amp.star-telegram.com/news/busi ... 36732.html
 
miaami
Posts: 936
Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2007 2:27 am

Re: American to cut 19,000 jobs in October

Wed Aug 26, 2020 1:33 am

Boof02671 wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
Sooner787 wrote:
Honestly, I hope AA can survive this storm or everyone with AA will be on the streets.

If they have to file Ch 11 BK again, I don't see any other airlines stepping up with a merger proposal.


Chapter 11 doesn't mean liquidation - or even wiping out shareholders. (See AA's exit from Ch 11 in 2013.)

The problem is that a firm needs financing to get through Ch 11 where it casts off debt, terminates leases, etc. So, AA can't wait until everything of value is mortgaged and all the cash is gone before filing Ch 11. If it goes that late it won't/might not be able to obtain sufficient Debtor In Possession (DIP) financing to keep operating, and could be forced into an involuntary Ch 7 liquidation by creditors.

I don't see the appeal to creditors of wiping out debt and letting AS get the assets for pennies a la TWA, but we haven't seen a carrier with 900+ mainline planes get liquidated, either. There would be a lot of assets to market -- in a time where few domestic carriers will have $ (and probably no Congressional appetite to relax foreign ownership restrictions and see it get sold off to sovereign funds of non-democratic nations unnamed). IMHO a merger is an AA employee fantasy to keep their jobs and seniority. Regrets.

I've asserted before that if one of AA/DL/UA gets liquidated the U.S. govt will provide support for the other two to maintain competition over intercontinental route networks and service to midsize cities. I do mean liquidated, not 'just' Ch 11 filings.

AA did wipeout the stock that’s why it’s on the NASDAQ and under a new symbol and stockholders only got 3.5% of new stock.

“ And as the airline prepares to exit bankruptcy and merge with US Airways following the settlement of a federal antitrust lawsuit, shareholders are poised to join the pay day. Under the restructuring agreement approved by the court, shareholders — who typically get nothing during a reorganization — are guaranteed 3.5 percent of the equity in the new combined airline. And they’re likely to recover more than that.”

https://amp.star-telegram.com/news/busi ... 36732.html


The AMR stock holders were not wiped out. As you pointed out they received 3.5% of the new AAL stock. Usually stock holders of BK companies receive nothing and the stock is worthless. In this case the company exchanged the AMR stock for 3.5% in the new AAL stock. They did OK and the stock eventually made it to approx $58 a share at its peak.
 
Boof02671
Topic Author
Posts: 2121
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: American to cut 19,000 jobs in October

Wed Aug 26, 2020 1:51 am

miaami wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:

Chapter 11 doesn't mean liquidation - or even wiping out shareholders. (See AA's exit from Ch 11 in 2013.)

The problem is that a firm needs financing to get through Ch 11 where it casts off debt, terminates leases, etc. So, AA can't wait until everything of value is mortgaged and all the cash is gone before filing Ch 11. If it goes that late it won't/might not be able to obtain sufficient Debtor In Possession (DIP) financing to keep operating, and could be forced into an involuntary Ch 7 liquidation by creditors.

I don't see the appeal to creditors of wiping out debt and letting AS get the assets for pennies a la TWA, but we haven't seen a carrier with 900+ mainline planes get liquidated, either. There would be a lot of assets to market -- in a time where few domestic carriers will have $ (and probably no Congressional appetite to relax foreign ownership restrictions and see it get sold off to sovereign funds of non-democratic nations unnamed). IMHO a merger is an AA employee fantasy to keep their jobs and seniority. Regrets.

I've asserted before that if one of AA/DL/UA gets liquidated the U.S. govt will provide support for the other two to maintain competition over intercontinental route networks and service to midsize cities. I do mean liquidated, not 'just' Ch 11 filings.

AA did wipeout the stock that’s why it’s on the NASDAQ and under a new symbol and stockholders only got 3.5% of new stock.

“ And as the airline prepares to exit bankruptcy and merge with US Airways following the settlement of a federal antitrust lawsuit, shareholders are poised to join the pay day. Under the restructuring agreement approved by the court, shareholders — who typically get nothing during a reorganization — are guaranteed 3.5 percent of the equity in the new combined airline. And they’re likely to recover more than that.”

https://amp.star-telegram.com/news/busi ... 36732.html


The AMR stock holders were not wiped out. As you pointed out they received 3.5% of the new AAL stock. Usually stock holders of BK companies receive nothing and the stock is worthless. In this case the company exchanged the AMR stock for 3.5% in the new AAL stock. They did OK and the stock eventually made it to approx $58 a share at its peak.

3.5% of new stock not 100%, that leaves 96.5% of old stock wiped out.
 
Tack
Posts: 104
Joined: Thu Oct 04, 2018 11:13 pm

Re: American to cut 19,000 jobs in October

Wed Aug 26, 2020 2:07 am

Galore wrote:
So is this going to be an example of reverse age discrimination if AA gets rid of their young FAs and pilots? It’s just weird that this will bias their workforce (and their customer experience) towards in my experience often disgruntled FAs in their 60s.


It’s a seniority based system for all US airlines. And isn’t your comment that f/a’s in their 60’s are often disgruntled in some way also a blanket age Discrimination take? Asking for a friend, he was to busy shaking his head.
 
miaami
Posts: 936
Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2007 2:27 am

Re: American to cut 19,000 jobs in October

Wed Aug 26, 2020 4:08 am

Boof02671 wrote:
miaami wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
AA did wipeout the stock that’s why it’s on the NASDAQ and under a new symbol and stockholders only got 3.5% of new stock.

“ And as the airline prepares to exit bankruptcy and merge with US Airways following the settlement of a federal antitrust lawsuit, shareholders are poised to join the pay day. Under the restructuring agreement approved by the court, shareholders — who typically get nothing during a reorganization — are guaranteed 3.5 percent of the equity in the new combined airline. And they’re likely to recover more than that.”

https://amp.star-telegram.com/news/busi ... 36732.html


The AMR stock holders were not wiped out. As you pointed out they received 3.5% of the new AAL stock. Usually stock holders of BK companies receive nothing and the stock is worthless. In this case the company exchanged the AMR stock for 3.5% in the new AAL stock. They did OK and the stock eventually made it to approx $58 a share at its peak.

3.5% of new stock not 100%, that leaves 96.5% of old stock wiped out.


I see what your trying to say but the payout turned out well for the AMR stock holders. Unusual for bankruptcies. check out this article

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/air ... a-killing/
 
FlyingElvii
Posts: 939
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: American to cut 19,000 jobs in October

Wed Aug 26, 2020 4:20 am

Boof02671 wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
Here are the numbers from Jetnet

Pilots 1600
FAs 8100
Maintenance and related 800
Fleet service 2225
Passenger service 1275
Dispatch 150
Flight crew training instructors and sim pilot instructors 12
Wholly owned carries 3000

Furloughing training seems short sighted. When it’s time to bring everyone back it’s going to be bonkers.

There are 350 Flight Crew Training Instructors. So laying of 12 leaves 338 for the 17,000 FAs who will still be employed.

They will be training, AND flying the line, you can bet on it. Already seeing it at my company.
Last edited by FlyingElvii on Wed Aug 26, 2020 4:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
FlyingElvii
Posts: 939
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: American to cut 19,000 jobs in October

Wed Aug 26, 2020 4:29 am

Boof02671 wrote:
Here are the numbers from Jetnet

Pilots 1600
Wholly owned carries 3000


Like it or not, FA’s are easily replaceable, there is always a new crop of young women “eager to see the world”.

Much more interesting I believe is Per APC and Jetnet, Envoy is Offering a 5 year leave to 145 pilots only, paying 19 hours a month.
They are still trying to retain pilots, everyone else is replaceable. IMO, they think the current pilot training pipeline is going To dry up in the future, like it did after the 2001 and 2008 layoffs. YX is keeping the in-house puppy mill, Lyft, although they have stopped the heavy marketing and recruiting for it.

Midwest skies are full of Lyft planes on almost any given day.
 
75driver
Posts: 124
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2020 2:02 pm

Re: American to cut 19,000 jobs in October

Wed Aug 26, 2020 4:51 am

American reduction is actually 40,000. The current announcement doesn’t include previous layoffs, furloughs, early retirement, voluntary, etc. 40,000! That’s an astronomical number. Another bailout is the only thing that will prop up the industry but its only kicking the can down the road. The initial bailout was given with the assumption it would weather the storm. As it turns out it didn’t even come close.
 
coairman
Posts: 167
Joined: Sun Dec 12, 2010 8:31 am

Re: American to cut 19,000 jobs in October

Wed Aug 26, 2020 6:16 am

Galore wrote:
So is this going to be an example of reverse age discrimination if AA gets rid of their young FAs and pilots? It’s just weird that this will bias their workforce (and their customer experience) towards in my experience often disgruntled FAs in their 60s.



Some new hire airline employees are older. They take the job in their 50’s and 60’s after retiring from a previous job, like military, police , corporate, etc. Many times they are on their previous job’s retirement pension and are doing quite well. Even for some, working for an airline might be their third career.

They work for an airline part time for medical, flight benefits and to get out of the house.

So it’s not based on age. It’s based on company seniority.
The views I express are of my own, and not the company I work for.
 
coairman
Posts: 167
Joined: Sun Dec 12, 2010 8:31 am

Re: American to cut 19,000 jobs in October

Wed Aug 26, 2020 6:48 am

LAXintl wrote:
In my view CARES extension for airline industry would be terrible policy when so much of the rest if the economy is also suffering terribly.

Government can help those impacted via UI or other programs but throwing money at a specific industry for uneeded people to sit around is bad use of funds.

We must accept the industry will be smaller for years to come which means fewer employees.

To put things in perspective, during the last recession business travel in the US declined barely 10% and we saw how big effect it had on airlines for years. Todays downturn wont be solved by keeping unneeded people employed for another 6 months.

Let the companies get on with much needed restructuring of their businesses and get situated for the new normal.


I totally agree with you and I was gonna post a similar post. To be paid 8 hours per day and only work 1 hour is ridiculous, especially at tax payer expense. No company would truly operate in that manner and now is the time to shrink the airlines to match demand. It’s a tough thing to do, but it has to be done.
The views I express are of my own, and not the company I work for.
 
User avatar
DarkSnowyNight
Posts: 2681
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2012 7:59 pm

Re: American to cut 19,000 jobs in October

Wed Aug 26, 2020 8:31 am

coairman wrote:

Some new hire airline employees are older. They take the job in their 50’s and 60’s after retiring from a previous job, like military, police , corporate, etc. Many times they are on their previous job’s retirement pension and are doing quite well. Even for some, working for an airline might be their third career.

They work for an airline part time for medical, flight benefits and to get out of the house.

So it’s not based on age. It’s based on company seniority.


This is correct, but not strictly helpful. When speaking in generalities, outliers may add some spice, but offer few, if any, calories. The majority of senior FAs are in an advanced state of age. Particularly true in AA's case, as until US came to save them in 2013, there had been virtually no new hires since the very early 2000s. And also in particular, with high seniority overseas bidding effectively going away, it would not be unreasonable to expect the associated issues with that spilling over to the domestic markets.

coairman wrote:

I totally agree with you and I was gonna post a similar post. To be paid 8 hours per day and only work 1 hour is ridiculous, especially at tax payer expense. No company would truly operate in that manner and now is the time to shrink the airlines to match demand. It’s a tough thing to do, but it has to be done.


Absolutely. I do not know where this talk of more bailouts is originating, but there will be no calvary coming over the hill. Both parties have indicated that it is not politically feasible to prop up the airlines when the country has real problems to deal with. We have done more than enough already.

miaami wrote:

The AMR stock holders were not wiped out. As you pointed out they received 3.5% of the new AAL stock. Usually stock holders of BK companies receive nothing and the stock is worthless. In this case the company exchanged the AMR stock for 3.5% in the new AAL stock. They did OK and the stock eventually made it to approx $58 a share at its peak.


And very quickly retrenched trading at less than $34, less than a year later. Even pre-Covid, the decline in value was steady, sharp, and not indicative of a return to peak at any point in the near to mid term. I understand that buy-backs can have this effect, but for investors, that is not an excuse, so much as a very good reason to get out of that fire.


miaami wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
3.5% of new stock not 100%, that leaves 96.5% of old stock wiped out.


I see what your trying to say but the payout turned out well for the AMR stock holders. Unusual for bankruptcies. check out this article

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/air ... a-killing/


Highly doubtful. Your article is behind a paywall, which makes it not worth reading.

What is known about AMR & AAL stock is more reflective of what Boof02671 has said. While 96.5% was indeed wiped out, the gains that were made were highly transient and rife with Velocity. This is indicative of Day Trade Poafs here and there, but no substantial —or even noteworthy— long or mid term value. You do not see them in a lot of Mutual Funds.

I get that the more recent buy-backs were at least partially intended to remove some of that Velocity and stabilize the stock's general valuations, however those really did not accomplish this either. Their one and five histories paint a dismal picture of the company's financial performance with regard to value.

They were a trash stock before their BK, and things have not improved much since then. I do not know what the future holds for AA, but at this moment, further investment would be a poor choice.
"Nous ne sommes pas infectés. Il n'y a pas d'infection ici..."
 
DaCubbyBearBar
Posts: 103
Joined: Sat Apr 05, 2008 12:31 pm

Re: American to cut 19,000 jobs in October

Wed Aug 26, 2020 10:43 am

My heart goes out to all of those who are facing this in 5 weeks. 2020 SUCKS!!
I am me and no one else...so my opinions are mine
 
Miamiairport
Posts: 694
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:14 pm

Re: American to cut 19,000 jobs in October

Wed Aug 26, 2020 11:42 am

I don't see a CARES 2 and I don't see another stimulus. There's no end in sight to this. I have my doubts about a vaccine anytime soon. I also have my doubts that even if the virus started to burn out, which is what viruses eventually do or mankind would have been dead ions ago, that any politician will ever allow the world to go back to normal. Airline employees like so many industry workers are totally screwed. A small percentage of the pilots might be able to fly cargo.
 
MSJYOP28Apilot
Posts: 446
Joined: Tue Jul 21, 2009 2:09 am

Re: American to cut 19,000 jobs in October

Wed Aug 26, 2020 12:15 pm

So far none of the proponents of bailouts have said what happens in January. If things are not recovered or recovering by then does the industry make a push to get a third bailout to avoid March layoffs? How many bailouts does this industry get?

AA has retired the E190, 757, 767, A333 and is retiring around a hundred 737s. The A332 are long term parked and pilots are being moved off. Overall, the airline is going to have a sizable net loss around a hundred planes from pre-pandemic. The airline is struggling with financing its MAX deliveries right now due to the debt. This means for the foreseeable future there will be staffing issues. But does AA keep getting bailouts until no furloughs are needed through retirements and voluntary attrition or do the bailouts stop at a certain percentage being furloughed?
 
na
Posts: 9770
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Re: American to cut 19,000 jobs in October

Wed Aug 26, 2020 1:43 pm

19.000 jobs, thats massive. That equals roughly 100 planes ore more. As Corona means the largest planes are the hardest to fill, how many 777s will be phased out?
 
AAtakeMeAway
Posts: 472
Joined: Fri Jul 16, 2004 8:59 am

Re: American to cut 19,000 jobs in October

Wed Aug 26, 2020 2:02 pm

Galore wrote:
sprxUSA wrote:
Galore wrote:
So is this going to be an example of reverse age discrimination if AA gets rid of their young FAs and pilots? It’s just weird that this will bias their workforce (and their customer experience) towards in my experience often disgruntled FAs in their 60s.


Um, it is done by seniority regardless of age.....


Yeah, I understand, but seniority, as the word itself suggests, implies that juniors get discriminated against seniors. So while its legally not age discrimination, the effect is the same (but biased against younger employees).

From a customer point of view, this is problematic as FAs are critical to the experience and if people get furloughed just by seniority and not performance, the product will suffer.

I’ve been on many, many flights on AA and UA to Asia and these usually get very senior FAs (because they want to get over their hours with as few flights as possible, so they bid and win these ultra long haul flights based on their seniority).

The customer experience is often dismal because in my own experience on so many flights, chances are the FA is totally over this type of job after 30 years of continuous downhill slides in job conditions, flying public, RIFs and the difficult work of a FA in general.

I actually had my best experiences on Spirit with their much more motivated crews than on these ultra long haul legacy senior FA staffed flights. It’ll probably become extra unbearable once these disgruntled 60 year old FAs are re-assigned from their preferred few Asia trips a month to many domestic short haul flights that were done by their now furloughed junior colleagues.

That’s just a recipe for a bad product.


We (the passengers) have been here before (prior to 2013 when there hadn't been a new hire in many years) .... it wasn't the end of the world. As is the case today, there were some great FA's, some bad FA's, and many somewhere in the middle.
 
Miamiairport
Posts: 694
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:14 pm

Re: American to cut 19,000 jobs in October

Wed Aug 26, 2020 2:23 pm

Flight attendants do not go through formal evaluations and it would be very hard to decide the "good" from the "bad." Maybe those with write ups but I would imagine most lazy FAs (in all airlines) probably are warning free. It's just how the job is set up.

The idea that the quality of a FA is aged base is total nonsense. I've been an elite flyer for 25 years and I've experience excellent to the worst in all age ranges. It's either a job one loves or a job one takes for the wrong reasons and stays with for the wrong reasons. I doubt anyone on this board that's over age 40 would want someone to presume they do a lousy job because of their age.
 
IFlyVeryLittle
Posts: 117
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2018 7:31 pm

Re: American to cut 19,000 jobs in October

Wed Aug 26, 2020 2:26 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
LAXintl wrote:
In my view CARES extension for airline industry would be terrible policy when so much of the rest if the economy is also suffering terribly.

Government can help those impacted via UI or other programs but throwing money at a specific industry for uneeded people to sit around is bad use of funds.

We must accept the industry will be smaller for years to come which means fewer employees.

To put things in perspective, during the last recession business travel in the US declined barely 10% and we saw how big effect it had on airlines for years. Todays downturn wont be solved by keeping unneeded people employed for another 6 months.

Let the companies get on with much needed restructuring of their businesses and get situated for the new normal.

Airlines provide interstate commerce and are a national security issue.

And they will continue to do so. It just doesnt make any sense to fly empty planes around all day and night if there is no demand. The market will tell the airlines when to build back up.
 
Miamiairport
Posts: 694
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:14 pm

Re: American to cut 19,000 jobs in October

Wed Aug 26, 2020 2:47 pm

I'm old enough to remember when few flew for leisure on any regular basis other than what we would think of as the 1%. Even business travel tended to be high level sales people, senior management and the consultant class as it was in the 60s and 70s. Mid level people bouncing all over the world was fairly small 50-60 years ago albeit companies were not only smaller in size but more were local or regional in nature. Look at banking in the 1960s versus today.

People could go back to car travel (I remember our six family 10 hour trips in my parents station wagon) and today virtual is a cost effective, at least somewhat viable option to constantly having teams of people flying all over the world. The world would survive if there were fewer airlines, less jets and even higher prices.
 
496TFS
Posts: 25
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Re: American to cut 19,000 jobs in October

Wed Aug 26, 2020 3:00 pm

ALL airlines, and especially AA, need to get off the COVID 19 bandwagon! Passengers are avoiding flying due to being scared to death and having to wear the damn mask while flying. Begging Congress for more free money is the easy way out. Management should be hammering Congress, the CDC and the WHO to declare victory over COVID 19 and return the economy to normal sooner than later. Using employee furloughs as a bargaining chip for more free money takes very little imagination or leadership.
 
User avatar
Francoflier
Posts: 5411
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Re: American to cut 19,000 jobs in October

Wed Aug 26, 2020 3:01 pm

Miamiairport wrote:
I'm old enough to remember when few flew for leisure on any regular basis other than what we would think of as the 1%. Even business travel tended to be high level sales people, senior management and the consultant class as it was in the 60s and 70s. Mid level people bouncing all over the world was fairly small 50-60 years ago albeit companies were not only smaller in size but more were local or regional in nature. Look at banking in the 1960s versus today.

People could go back to car travel (I remember our six family 10 hour trips in my parents station wagon) and today virtual is a cost effective, at least somewhat viable option to constantly having teams of people flying all over the world. The world would survive if there were fewer airlines, less jets and even higher prices.


The only reason people aren't flying is the virus and the mindless fear and panic associated to it. There is no other underlying reason for the utter destruction of the airline industry, other than the ensuing economic crisis created by the same hysteria, which will depress demand for a while.

Once the dust settles, air traffic will go back to what it was, and then some. It might take a few years, but we are not going back to driving everywhere anytime soon.
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
Boof02671
Topic Author
Posts: 2121
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: American to cut 19,000 jobs in October

Wed Aug 26, 2020 3:13 pm

na wrote:
19.000 jobs, thats massive. That equals roughly 100 planes ore more. As Corona means the largest planes are the hardest to fill, how many 777s will be phased out?

None scheduled. They retired the 34 767s, the remaining 757s, the A333 and the 332 is in long term storage for at least two years or never come back.

The 777 and 787 are the only widebodies left.
 
Boof02671
Topic Author
Posts: 2121
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: American to cut 19,000 jobs in October

Wed Aug 26, 2020 3:14 pm

DarkSnowyNight wrote:
coairman wrote:

Some new hire airline employees are older. They take the job in their 50’s and 60’s after retiring from a previous job, like military, police , corporate, etc. Many times they are on their previous job’s retirement pension and are doing quite well. Even for some, working for an airline might be their third career.

They work for an airline part time for medical, flight benefits and to get out of the house.

So it’s not based on age. It’s based on company seniority.


This is correct, but not strictly helpful. When speaking in generalities, outliers may add some spice, but offer few, if any, calories. The majority of senior FAs are in an advanced state of age. Particularly true in AA's case, as until US came to save them in 2013, there had been virtually no new hires since the very early 2000s. And also in particular, with high seniority overseas bidding effectively going away, it would not be unreasonable to expect the associated issues with that spilling over to the domestic markets.

coairman wrote:

I totally agree with you and I was gonna post a similar post. To be paid 8 hours per day and only work 1 hour is ridiculous, especially at tax payer expense. No company would truly operate in that manner and now is the time to shrink the airlines to match demand. It’s a tough thing to do, but it has to be done.


Absolutely. I do not know where this talk of more bailouts is originating, but there will be no calvary coming over the hill. Both parties have indicated that it is not politically feasible to prop up the airlines when the country has real problems to deal with. We have done more than enough already.

miaami wrote:

The AMR stock holders were not wiped out. As you pointed out they received 3.5% of the new AAL stock. Usually stock holders of BK companies receive nothing and the stock is worthless. In this case the company exchanged the AMR stock for 3.5% in the new AAL stock. They did OK and the stock eventually made it to approx $58 a share at its peak.


And very quickly retrenched trading at less than $34, less than a year later. Even pre-Covid, the decline in value was steady, sharp, and not indicative of a return to peak at any point in the near to mid term. I understand that buy-backs can have this effect, but for investors, that is not an excuse, so much as a very good reason to get out of that fire.


miaami wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
3.5% of new stock not 100%, that leaves 96.5% of old stock wiped out.


I see what your trying to say but the payout turned out well for the AMR stock holders. Unusual for bankruptcies. check out this article

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/air ... a-killing/


Highly doubtful. Your article is behind a paywall, which makes it not worth reading.

What is known about AMR & AAL stock is more reflective of what Boof02671 has said. While 96.5% was indeed wiped out, the gains that were made were highly transient and rife with Velocity. This is indicative of Day Trade Poafs here and there, but no substantial —or even noteworthy— long or mid term value. You do not see them in a lot of Mutual Funds.

I get that the more recent buy-backs were at least partially intended to remove some of that Velocity and stabilize the stock's general valuations, however those really did not accomplish this either. Their one and five histories paint a dismal picture of the company's financial performance with regard to value.

They were a trash stock before their BK, and things have not improved much since then. I do not know what the future holds for AA, but at this moment, further investment would be a poor choice.

Here you go from the White House

https://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN25M1SW
 
Boof02671
Topic Author
Posts: 2121
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Re: American to cut 19,000 jobs in October

Wed Aug 26, 2020 3:15 pm

496TFS wrote:
ALL airlines, and especially AA, need to get off the COVID 19 bandwagon! Passengers are avoiding flying due to being scared to death and having to wear the damn mask while flying. Begging Congress for more free money is the easy way out. Management should be hammering Congress, the CDC and the WHO to declare victory over COVID 19 and return the economy to normal sooner than later. Using employee furloughs as a bargaining chip for more free money takes very little imagination or leadership.

It has zero to with flying with a mask.
 
Boof02671
Topic Author
Posts: 2121
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: American to cut 19,000 jobs in October

Wed Aug 26, 2020 3:21 pm

MSJYOP28Apilot wrote:
So far none of the proponents of bailouts have said what happens in January. If things are not recovered or recovering by then does the industry make a push to get a third bailout to avoid March layoffs? How many bailouts does this industry get?

AA has retired the E190, 757, 767, A333 and is retiring around a hundred 737s. The A332 are long term parked and pilots are being moved off. Overall, the airline is going to have a sizable net loss around a hundred planes from pre-pandemic. The airline is struggling with financing its MAX deliveries right now due to the debt. This means for the foreseeable future there will be staffing issues. But does AA keep getting bailouts until no furloughs are needed through retirements and voluntary attrition or do the bailouts stop at a certain percentage being furloughed?

They are not retiring a 100 737s. It’s 42 of the oldest 738s and they are being replaced with the Max. AA already has 24 Max’s and many not taken yet from Boeing that are built already. And A321s.


American may cull its fleet further. It is considering retiring older models of the plane types it plans to keep around, which could affect some Airbus A320s and 42 Boeing 737-800s, said Kerr. The airline may also remove its 15 Airbus A330-200s, however, these aircraft are younger and mortgaged complicating any potential retirement decision.”


https://thepointsguy.com/news/american- ... virus/amp/
 
FlyingElvii
Posts: 939
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: American to cut 19,000 jobs in October

Wed Aug 26, 2020 3:21 pm

75driver wrote:
American reduction is actually 40,000. The current announcement doesn’t include previous layoffs, furloughs, early retirement, voluntary, etc. 40,000! That’s an astronomical number. Another bailout is the only thing that will prop up the industry but its only kicking the can down the road. The initial bailout was given with the assumption it would weather the storm. As it turns out it didn’t even come close.

Coworker left for AA last fall to run a new program.
AA stopped funding the program and laid him off from Dallas HQ in late June, but he is being paid through Sept 30
 
Miamiairport
Posts: 694
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:14 pm

Re: American to cut 19,000 jobs in October

Wed Aug 26, 2020 10:26 pm

Going OT here but I would assume at least in the US ULCCs do see a bit of small business travel. Small companies with limited resources, occasional need to have people travel and no one that manages travel. But again I'm sure it's a very modest percentage.

Unfortunately for these airline folks I don't see a quick fix. I've been watching You Tube videos and some health officials are warning against this belief that a vaccine is right around the corner. The trials are in Phase 3 and that's where often the negatives are found. Not to mention from what I read and hear it could take an entire year to get the better part of the population vaccine. Even if the virus begins to burn out any governor/mayor/county manager will be crucified for lifting lockdowns under the fear that they will start "another wave."
 
MSJYOP28Apilot
Posts: 446
Joined: Tue Jul 21, 2009 2:09 am

Re: American to cut 19,000 jobs in October

Wed Aug 26, 2020 11:00 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
MSJYOP28Apilot wrote:
So far none of the proponents of bailouts have said what happens in January. If things are not recovered or recovering by then does the industry make a push to get a third bailout to avoid March layoffs? How many bailouts does this industry get?

AA has retired the E190, 757, 767, A333 and is retiring around a hundred 737s. The A332 are long term parked and pilots are being moved off. Overall, the airline is going to have a sizable net loss around a hundred planes from pre-pandemic. The airline is struggling with financing its MAX deliveries right now due to the debt. This means for the foreseeable future there will be staffing issues. But does AA keep getting bailouts until no furloughs are needed through retirements and voluntary attrition or do the bailouts stop at a certain percentage being furloughed?

They are not retiring a 100 737s. It’s 42 of the oldest 738s and they are being replaced with the Max. AA already has 24 Max’s and many not taken yet from Boeing that are built already. And A321s.


American may cull its fleet further. It is considering retiring older models of the plane types it plans to keep around, which could affect some Airbus A320s and 42 Boeing 737-800s, said Kerr. The airline may also remove its 15 Airbus A330-200s, however, these aircraft are younger and mortgaged complicating any potential retirement decision.”


https://thepointsguy.com/news/american- ... virus/amp/


You still didnt answer the question: How many bailouts do the airlines including AA deserve? When do even the unions say enough is enough? CARES 2 being passed and signed doesn't change the situation surrounding passenger demand and also the fleet retirements that have already occurred.
 
PhilMcCrackin
Posts: 321
Joined: Mon Jun 24, 2019 11:54 pm

Re: American to cut 19,000 jobs in October

Wed Aug 26, 2020 11:50 pm

Moosefire wrote:
panam330 wrote:
Moosefire wrote:
my bros that are looking at furloughs at UA & DL have already found jobs elsewhere. At some point the market needs to right size to match demand.

Flying jobs? Where on earth did they find those? Even regionals are contracting, and FX/UP pilots currently being hired have been in the pipeline since before Covid.


yes... flying jobs. In one case a 3 year AGR (military) role, the other was corporate. FedEx is hiring beyond the pool now, I can’t say anything for certain about UPS.


Corporate is a pretty steep step down from flying for a major though. I hope his furlough is short.
 
F9Animal
Posts: 4435
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2004 7:13 am

Re: American to cut 19,000 jobs in October

Thu Aug 27, 2020 4:05 am

LAXintl wrote:


Having worked for Doug from the America West days, I can tell you he is very pro worker. During the US Airways deal, US had laid off and outsourced alot of stations, including the station I was at. Parker stopped a majority of the outsourcing and brought the work back in house. With that said, I am certain this letter was difficult for him to put out.

To all my fellow brothers and sisters of AA, this is sobering and painful to see. If you are affected, I really hope a quick turnaround or another Cares package is given.

As for all my airline friends here all over the world... I am saying a prayer for you all every single day, and hoping for clear skies sooner than later. As a huge airliner fan, I can't tell you enough how much I appreciate each and every one of you.
I Am A Different Animal!!
 
joeblow10
Posts: 431
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:58 pm

Re: American to cut 19,000 jobs in October

Thu Aug 27, 2020 4:28 am

By no means am I criticizing Doug for the letter, it’s well written - but I do take some issue with the section discussing Sept 30 as a day we would have presumed to be back to “normalcy” in the industry. Anybody in this industry who wasn’t preparing for the worst come Oct 1 is blind as a bat... the initial round of PSP should have been used as a 6 month grace period to get everything in order and prepare for the worst, I imagine most did just that, but I know a few colleagues who didn’t... blows my mind. Even if we had the virus “under control,” we’d be nowhere close to what we saw in 2019s numbers and demand
 
FRNT787
Posts: 377
Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 10:04 am

Re: American to cut 19,000 jobs in October

Thu Aug 27, 2020 11:15 am

Boof02671 wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
Here are the numbers from Jetnet

Pilots 1600
FAs 8100
Maintenance and related 800
Fleet service 2225
Passenger service 1275
Dispatch 150
Flight crew training instructors and sim pilot instructors 12
Wholly owned carries 3000

Furloughing training seems short sighted. When it’s time to bring everyone back it’s going to be bonkers.

There are 350 Flight Crew Training Instructors. So laying of 12 leaves 338 for the 17,000 FAs who will still be employed.


Flight Crew Training Instructors (at least those mentioned in the link) train Pilots, not Flight Attendants. I am one. We are ground school instructors effectively focusing on systems, policies, general knowledge, and operating procedures. There are fleet FCTIs (737, A320 family, 777, 787) and general subjects (security, basic indoctrination, and other topics) as well as International training. I for example train on the 737, and my job is about 1/3 systems and 2/3 procedures. The order of training is work with FCTIs for 9 days (longer if Basic Indoc is required), then Sim Pilot Instructors, and then Check Airmen before heading out for OE. The furlough is affecting both FCTIs and Sim Pilot Instructors, and the 12 is divided among those two groups (they are technically separate classifications in the same seniority list).

Additionally, the training department had spent much of 2019 and early 2020 staffing up for the anticipation of very heavy new hire training and pilot movement due to significant retirement numbers, so that fact does impact the numbers somewhat. Furthermore, there are some leaves of absence being taken, and those can be called back with about a 1 month notice.
 
Boof02671
Topic Author
Posts: 2121
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: American to cut 19,000 jobs in October

Thu Aug 27, 2020 1:46 pm

F9Animal wrote:
LAXintl wrote:


Having worked for Doug from the America West days, I can tell you he is very pro worker. During the US Airways deal, US had laid off and outsourced alot of stations, including the station I was at. Parker stopped a majority of the outsourcing and brought the work back in house. With that said, I am certain this letter was difficult for him to put out.

To all my fellow brothers and sisters of AA, this is sobering and painful to see. If you are affected, I really hope a quick turnaround or another Cares package is given.

As for all my airline friends here all over the world... I am saying a prayer for you all every single day, and hoping for clear skies sooner than later. As a huge airliner fan, I can't tell you enough how much I appreciate each and every one of you.

Outsourcing occurred at US due to the two bankruptcies we did more work in-house than any other airline before the bankruptcies. And Doug is not worker friendly, he’d bring the work back from El Salvador, Brazil and Alabama instead of laying off American workers.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 6239
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: American to cut 19,000 jobs in October

Thu Aug 27, 2020 3:36 pm

PhilMcCrackin wrote:
Moosefire wrote:
panam330 wrote:
Flying jobs? Where on earth did they find those? Even regionals are contracting, and FX/UP pilots currently being hired have been in the pipeline since before Covid.


yes... flying jobs. In one case a 3 year AGR (military) role, the other was corporate. FedEx is hiring beyond the pool now, I can’t say anything for certain about UPS.


Corporate is a pretty steep step down from flying for a major though. I hope his furlough is short.


Depends, a close friend just turned down $300k+ at a corporate job with commuting paid.
 
Boof02671
Topic Author
Posts: 2121
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: American to cut 19,000 jobs in October

Thu Aug 27, 2020 4:22 pm

bennett123 wrote:
Alabama?.

One of the vendors AA uses is MZAR which is the former name of Singapore Technologies Brookley Field for heavy maintenance On widebodies and also had uses a vendor in Greensboro who was doing Oasis mods. And they use Aeroman in El Salvador for widebodies and narrowbodies

https://av-info.faa.gov/repairstation.a ... o=MZAR013L
 
75driver
Posts: 124
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2020 2:02 pm

Re: American to cut 19,000 jobs in October

Thu Aug 27, 2020 5:58 pm

The more I think about it the more I feel AA and the other airlines should not get another bailout. At least not in the manor it was given in March. The industry is going to be constricted for many years and there is no need to just kick the can of inevitability down the road. It’s just throwing away money.

That being said this is the only time where I’m not sure I favor the seniority system. We can’t eject all the people who will be carrying what’s left of the industry for the next 25-35 years. It’s probably time to think outside the box seeing as we’re in the middle of an unprecedented and generational event. Maybe sweeten early retirement split between Kompany and government funds for those with less than 10 years left and invest in education and retraining for the youngest. I don’t know how the age range shakes out at AA or other airlines but it would be foolish to lay off those who are fully trained and in their 30’s to 40’s when they still have decades to work. At the same time those younger can be retrained or educated into fields where demand and need exceed the aviation industry. Healthcare, Engineering, Business, etc.

I’m just spit balling here but we can’t keep on with indefinite bailouts only to face the same situation in 3,6,9,12 months, etc. Seems like a waste of money when investments can be made instead of charitable bailouts. Talks in Congress have stalled. The only place we’re seeing news about additional funds are coming from the White House. Meanwhile the days keep ticking down while our union and execs are standing their with hat in hand.

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