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Cointrin330
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TWA 747 Operations

Wed Aug 26, 2020 11:55 am

Really enjoying and appreciate folks' responses to the various TWA historical posts that appear here.

Again, focusing on the 1980s specifically, I am looking to confirm what TWA's 747 operation looked like across the network, in terms of routes. This is what I could piece together from a few old timetables, my memory, and general info out there:

JFK to LHR (2 x daily), CDG (2 x daily), MXP, FCO, MAD, TLV, ATH, CAI, LAX, with occasional seasonal rotations to SJU, MIA, and the Dominican Republic.
LAX to LHR, BOS, JFK
BOS to CDG and FCO (seasonal, and for one or two years) though I seem to recall BOS-CDG was mostly L10 or 762 with a 747SP flying it a bit until they were withdrawn, and one summer, FCO as well, and LAX for the CDG/FCO routes.
ORD to LHR

At STL, I don't recall the 747 being in regular service until the 1990s with STL-HNL and STL-SJU.

Anything missing or incorrect?
 
Cody
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Re: TWA 747 Operations

Wed Aug 26, 2020 1:38 pm

They flew them to San Francisco...I am guessing from JFK.
 
sgbroimp
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Re: TWA 747 Operations

Wed Aug 26, 2020 4:34 pm

JFK-FRA was in there daily at least for a while. 747, then 1011's, I think 767 ETOPS at the end. Flew them all but did not save my boarding passes to give you the dates....sorry.
 
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September11
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Re: TWA 747 Operations

Wed Aug 26, 2020 5:01 pm

Don't forget TWA 747 STL-HNL in the 1980s
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eta unknown
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Re: TWA 747 Operations

Wed Aug 26, 2020 5:15 pm

The SP flew JFK-ATH one or two summers. TW wanted to axe the nonstop JFK-MXP 747 and serve MXP via CDG with a 727. The Italians denied the request- the route is nonstop or not at all.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: TWA 747 Operations

Wed Aug 26, 2020 6:09 pm

sgbroimp wrote:
JFK-FRA was in there daily at least for a while. 747, then 1011's, I think 767 ETOPS at the end. Flew them all but did not save my boarding passes to give you the dates....sorry.


I totally forgot about FRA, my bad. Yes, TWA 740 JFK to FRA and TWA 741 FRA to JFK were operated by 747s. The route was axed in January 1997 and when it was, it was flown with the 767-200ER.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: TWA 747 Operations

Wed Aug 26, 2020 6:10 pm

September11 wrote:
Don't forget TWA 747 STL-HNL in the 1980s


It was mentioned in the topic starter/
 
Cointrin330
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Re: TWA 747 Operations

Wed Aug 26, 2020 6:13 pm

eta unknown wrote:
The SP flew JFK-ATH one or two summers. TW wanted to axe the nonstop JFK-MXP 747 and serve MXP via CDG with a 727. The Italians denied the request- the route is nonstop or not at all.


That does not sound right. JFK-MXP was among the last Europe TATL routes to be cut from JFK in 1998-9 alongside LIS, which left TWA with just JFK-CDG to the end, along with JFK-CAI-RUH and JFK-TLV to the Middle East. Maybe the 747 was too much plane for JFK-MXP but it operated year-round.
 
departedflights
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Re: TWA 747 Operations

Wed Aug 26, 2020 7:52 pm

A few random notes that I don't think have been covered....

I am not sure how long it lasted, but in TWA's February 1985 schedule, there was a daily 747 between Saint Louis and Chicago. It was a tag on to the Chicago-London route you mentioned in the original thread.

TWA also operated the 747 between Saint Louis and JFK off and on in the 1980s.
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eta unknown
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Re: TWA 747 Operations

Wed Aug 26, 2020 8:01 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
eta unknown wrote:
The SP flew JFK-ATH one or two summers. TW wanted to axe the nonstop JFK-MXP 747 and serve MXP via CDG with a 727. The Italians denied the request- the route is nonstop or not at all.


That does not sound right. JFK-MXP was among the last Europe TATL routes to be cut from JFK in 1998-9 alongside LIS, which left TWA with just JFK-CDG to the end, along with JFK-CAI-RUH and JFK-TLV to the Middle East. Maybe the 747 was too much plane for JFK-MXP but it operated year-round.


And there's your probable answer: 747 too big year round for MXP.
 
khowaga
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Re: TWA 747 Operations

Wed Aug 26, 2020 8:29 pm

eta unknown wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
eta unknown wrote:
The SP flew JFK-ATH one or two summers. TW wanted to axe the nonstop JFK-MXP 747 and serve MXP via CDG with a 727. The Italians denied the request- the route is nonstop or not at all.


That does not sound right. JFK-MXP was among the last Europe TATL routes to be cut from JFK in 1998-9 alongside LIS, which left TWA with just JFK-CDG to the end, along with JFK-CAI-RUH and JFK-TLV to the Middle East. Maybe the 747 was too much plane for JFK-MXP but it operated year-round.


And there's your probable answer: 747 too big year round for MXP.

One of the issues with TW’s overseas stations was that they had very high numbers of employees, including retired employees on full pension, because they had been operating from the days when airlines had to hire their own employees at every station rather than contract it out.

IIRC they had over 100 employees or ex-employees in TLV to support a single daily flight by the mid-90s; there was just no way they could operate profitably under such conditions. The numbers in ATH were similar, if I’m not mistaken, although they managed to exit Greece in ‘98 without much fuss—unlike in Israel, where AA had decided not to acquire the station at the time of the merger. TW’s local employee union filed a lawsuit over their pensions that left their aircraft open to being impounded until the case was resolved, and TWA halted TLV service abruptly (I’m not sure if it’s an urban legend that the JFK-TLV flight was boarding at the time the decision was made).

That MXP stayed around til the end (on a 762) is a sign that it was, indeed, profitable for them, despite everything.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: TWA 747 Operations

Wed Aug 26, 2020 8:33 pm

eta unknown wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
eta unknown wrote:
The SP flew JFK-ATH one or two summers. TW wanted to axe the nonstop JFK-MXP 747 and serve MXP via CDG with a 727. The Italians denied the request- the route is nonstop or not at all.


That does not sound right. JFK-MXP was among the last Europe TATL routes to be cut from JFK in 1998-9 alongside LIS, which left TWA with just JFK-CDG to the end, along with JFK-CAI-RUH and JFK-TLV to the Middle East. Maybe the 747 was too much plane for JFK-MXP but it operated year-round.


And there's your probable answer: 747 too big year round for MXP.


At 339 seats in 3 cabins (Royal Ambassador, (First), Ambassador (Business), and Economy), the 747 was too much plane for all but the LHR and perhaps the CDG routes, and were a contributing factor to TWA's financial performance issues, though the Icahn takeover and subsequent under-investment is what really hurt the company. The 747's were planned to be replaced initially with A330s (which also would have replaced some of the L1011s, which were getting up in age and also not the most efficient planes for may of the routes they were deployed on, and the 767-200ER too small). TWA's financial performance deteriorated further and the A330 order never came to be. CDG was a second and significant station for TWA in Europe throughout the 1980s and into the 1990s. At various times, TWA operated from CDG to GVA, ZRH, and TLV as tags from US inbound flights, using a mix of L1011/767 for the TLV routes and 727s for the Swiss destinations (L1011s were also used between CDG and GVA/ZRH) in peak summer months as putting 727s in Europe for a single or two rotations a day was expensive.
 
aeromoe
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Re: TWA 747 Operations

Wed Aug 26, 2020 8:43 pm

September11 wrote:
Don't forget TWA 747 STL-HNL in the 1980s
I photographed N93108 at HNL in Sept 1997. I haven't researched the possible routing but was this likely an STL nonstop? http://www.aeromoe.com/SPA/93108.jpg
Since 60s: AA AC AS BA BD BF BN BR(85) BY B6 CO CZ(16) DG DL EA EI EN FI FL FT F9 HA HP ICX JI JQ J7 KE KL KS LH MC NW OC OO OZ(87) OZ(88) PA PI PN(97) PT QF QQ RM RO RV(99) RV(16) RW SK SM SQ S4 TI TS TW UA UK US UZ VS VX WA WN WS W7 XV YV YX(13) ZZ 9K
 
FLYSPI
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Re: TWA 747 Operations

Wed Aug 26, 2020 8:50 pm

aeromoe wrote:
September11 wrote:
Don't forget TWA 747 STL-HNL in the 1980s
I photographed N93108 at HNL in Sept 1997. I haven't researched the possible routing but was this likely an STL nonstop? http://www.aeromoe.com/SPA/93108.jpg

Yep, would’ve been flights TW1 and TW2
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WA707atMSP
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Re: TWA 747 Operations

Wed Aug 26, 2020 9:04 pm

The late Jon Proctor's website has some interesting stories about his experiences in the 1970s as an inflight supervisor on TWA's early 747 (and L-1011) flights. Here are links - it's WELL worth reading!

http://jonproctor.net/1971-twa-dcs/

http://jonproctor.net/1972-my-kind-of-town/
 
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sjones1975
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Re: TWA 747 Operations

Wed Aug 26, 2020 9:51 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
JFK-MXP was among the last Europe TATL routes to be cut from JFK in 1998-9 alongside LIS, which left TWA with just JFK-CDG to the end, along with JFK-CAI-RUH and JFK-TLV to the Middle East. Maybe the 747 was too much plane for JFK-MXP but it operated year-round.


MXP and LIS lasted longer than 1999. I have a TWA route map from December 2000 showing TWA's European destinations (flown by TWA itself, not a partner) as Paris, Lisbon, Milan, and London. (Of course the London dot on the map refers to STL service, not JFK.)

I think those four European destinations may have actually survived to the end of TWA (i.e., TWA never axed them prior to its December 2001 merger with AA). Can anyone confirm this?
my longest flight in a 757: FRU-ADA-SNN-BWI
 
khowaga
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Re: TWA 747 Operations

Wed Aug 26, 2020 10:11 pm

sjones1975 wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
JFK-MXP was among the last Europe TATL routes to be cut from JFK in 1998-9 alongside LIS, which left TWA with just JFK-CDG to the end, along with JFK-CAI-RUH and JFK-TLV to the Middle East. Maybe the 747 was too much plane for JFK-MXP but it operated year-round.


MXP and LIS lasted longer than 1999. I have a TWA route map from December 2000 showing TWA's European destinations (flown by TWA itself, not a partner) as Paris, Lisbon, Milan, and London. (Of course the London dot on the map refers to STL service, not JFK.)

I think those four European destinations may have actually survived to the end of TWA (i.e., TWA never axed them prior to its December 2001 merger with AA). Can anyone confirm this?

The TW/AA combined timetable for July 2001 on departedflights shows no TW-coded flights to LIS or MXP. There is LAX-STL-LGW, STL-CDG, JFK-CDG, and JFK-CAI-RUH.

AA had planned to continue the CAI/RUH service, but it was ‘temporarily’ suspended by TW in the fall of 2001 because of low bookings/high cancellation after 9/11, and I don’t believe they were ever resumed on AA metal.
 
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OzarkD9S
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Re: TWA 747 Operations

Wed Aug 26, 2020 10:23 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:

At STL, I don't recall the 747 being in regular service until the 1990s with STL-HNL and STL-SJU.

Anything missing or incorrect?


Before TWA sold off LHR, they operated STL-ORD-LHR on the 747 for a season or two. I flew STL-ORD on the 747 and back on a 727 just for the experience as a non-rev. My shortest widebody flight.
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aeromoe
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Re: TWA 747 Operations

Wed Aug 26, 2020 11:03 pm

FLYSPI wrote:
aeromoe wrote:
September11 wrote:
Don't forget TWA 747 STL-HNL in the 1980s
I photographed N93108 at HNL in Sept 1997. I haven't researched the possible routing but was this likely an STL nonstop? http://www.aeromoe.com/SPA/93108.jpg

Yep, would’ve been flights TW1 and TW2


Thanks.
Since 60s: AA AC AS BA BD BF BN BR(85) BY B6 CO CZ(16) DG DL EA EI EN FI FL FT F9 HA HP ICX JI JQ J7 KE KL KS LH MC NW OC OO OZ(87) OZ(88) PA PI PN(97) PT QF QQ RM RO RV(99) RV(16) RW SK SM SQ S4 TI TS TW UA UK US UZ VS VX WA WN WS W7 XV YV YX(13) ZZ 9K
 
blacksoviet
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Re: TWA 747 Operations

Wed Aug 26, 2020 11:59 pm

Did TWA ever operate 747 flights out of JFK Terminal 6, the Sundrome?
 
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Re: TWA 747 Operations

Thu Aug 27, 2020 1:35 am

blacksoviet wrote:
Did TWA ever operate 747 flights out of JFK Terminal 6, the Sundrome?


I took a flight to London Heathrow in 1985 from the Sundrome. For some reason that summer they were checking in London flights in that terminal then taking passengers to remote stands.

TWA did fly some 747 to LAX & SFO from that terminal especially in the winter schedule when Europe was off -peak.
 
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ElroyJetson
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Re: TWA 747 Operations

Thu Aug 27, 2020 1:37 am

I flew from JFK-LHR in May 1975 on a TWA 747-100. I was 13 years old.
 
blacksoviet
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Re: TWA 747 Operations

Thu Aug 27, 2020 1:49 am

jfk777 wrote:
blacksoviet wrote:
Did TWA ever operate 747 flights out of JFK Terminal 6, the Sundrome?


I took a flight to London Heathrow in 1985 from the Sundrome. For some reason that summer they were checking in London flights in that terminal then taking passengers to remote stands.

TWA did fly some 747 to LAX & SFO from that terminal especially in the winter schedule when Europe was off -peak.

Did you board a mobile lounge to get to your remote stand? I don’t know if a 747 could use a banjo gate without blocking one or both gates on either side.

Does anybody remember which gate at T6 was the mobile lounge boarding gate? I believe T5 also had a mobile lounge gate.

It would have been nice to see a 777 in TWA livery at either T5 or T6.
 
skedguy
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Re: TWA 747 Operations

Thu Aug 27, 2020 1:53 am

departedflights wrote:
A few random notes that I don't think have been covered....

I am not sure how long it lasted, but in TWA's February 1985 schedule, there was a daily 747 between Saint Louis and Chicago. It was a tag on to the Chicago-London route you mentioned in the original thread.

TWA also operated the 747 between Saint Louis and JFK off and on in the 1980s.


Yep! I remember it well as a young kid growing up in STL. WN had recently entered STL-MDW, so there were fare sales galore in the STL-ORD/MDW market. My dad and I flew up to ORD specifically to fly the TW 747 back to STL the next day. We took an OZ D9S on a Friday night to ORD. I recall being shocked that OZ served a wrapped deli sandwich with chips on a flight that short. Big deal for a young kid. I also remember the 747 flight home the next day. The flight was full, and the F/As were still serving beverages well into our descent into STL. The F/A made a big fuss when we landed about the plane being very large, and as a result we would have to park at the very end of the concourse. People on the plane sighed as I was saying to myself, "but the concourse really isn't THAT long." Good times growing up in the 80s in STL with a dual hub.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: TWA 747 Operations

Thu Aug 27, 2020 1:59 am

OzarkD9S wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:

At STL, I don't recall the 747 being in regular service until the 1990s with STL-HNL and STL-SJU.

Anything missing or incorrect?


Before TWA sold off LHR, they operated STL-ORD-LHR on the 747 for a season or two. I flew STL-ORD on the 747 and back on a 727 just for the experience as a non-rev. My shortest widebody flight.


Very cool experience. I flew JFK to MCI in 1984 on TWA and the flight operated JFK-ORD-MCI. The outbound was a 727, and we parked next to the LHR bound 747 at ORD. The return flight operated as MCI-ORD-JFK, and was on the L1011. It was the flight and aircraft that continued on to AMS. The MCI-ORD segment on the L1011 was about 15% full, and it was quite an experience having such a large, empty plane to ourselves.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: TWA 747 Operations

Thu Aug 27, 2020 2:03 am

khowaga wrote:
sjones1975 wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
JFK-MXP was among the last Europe TATL routes to be cut from JFK in 1998-9 alongside LIS, which left TWA with just JFK-CDG to the end, along with JFK-CAI-RUH and JFK-TLV to the Middle East. Maybe the 747 was too much plane for JFK-MXP but it operated year-round.


MXP and LIS lasted longer than 1999. I have a TWA route map from December 2000 showing TWA's European destinations (flown by TWA itself, not a partner) as Paris, Lisbon, Milan, and London. (Of course the London dot on the map refers to STL service, not JFK.)

I think those four European destinations may have actually survived to the end of TWA (i.e., TWA never axed them prior to its December 2001 merger with AA). Can anyone confirm this?

The TW/AA combined timetable for July 2001 on departedflights shows no TW-coded flights to LIS or MXP. There is LAX-STL-LGW, STL-CDG, JFK-CDG, and JFK-CAI-RUH.

AA had planned to continue the CAI/RUH service, but it was ‘temporarily’ suspended by TW in the fall of 2001 because of low bookings/high cancellation after 9/11, and I don’t believe they were ever resumed on AA metal.


LIS and MXP, were, as I mentioned, dropped in 1998 or 1999. The combined TWA/AA timetable you refer to is from 2001. AA acquired TWA in January 2001 as TWA filed for bankruptcy again. STL-LGW, STL-CDG, JFK-CDG, and JFK-CAI-RUH, plus JFK-TLV were all that was left of the long haul international network by 2001 at TWA. Not sure about whether AA would have continued the JFK-CAI-RUH route or not, but AA was definitely not going to operate JFK-TLV due to the high cost of operations at TWA in TLV, which had around 100 employees that AA did not want.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: TWA 747 Operations

Thu Aug 27, 2020 2:04 am

sjones1975 wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
JFK-MXP was among the last Europe TATL routes to be cut from JFK in 1998-9 alongside LIS, which left TWA with just JFK-CDG to the end, along with JFK-CAI-RUH and JFK-TLV to the Middle East. Maybe the 747 was too much plane for JFK-MXP but it operated year-round.


MXP and LIS lasted longer than 1999. I have a TWA route map from December 2000 showing TWA's European destinations (flown by TWA itself, not a partner) as Paris, Lisbon, Milan, and London. (Of course the London dot on the map refers to STL service, not JFK.)

I think those four European destinations may have actually survived to the end of TWA (i.e., TWA never axed them prior to its December 2001 merger with AA). Can anyone confirm this?


Pretty sure LIS and MXP were gone by 2001. They may have lived on from JFK for a short time longer than 1998/1999 but they were gone by the merger. London was served from STL to the end (LGW).
 
khowaga
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TWA 747 Operations

Thu Aug 27, 2020 2:29 am

Cointrin330 wrote:
Not sure about whether AA would have continued the JFK-CAI-RUH route or not, but AA was definitely not going to operate JFK-TLV due to the high cost of operations at TWA in TLV, which had around 100 employees that AA did not want.


I was paying attention to the CAI/RUH flight because I was back and forth to CAI at the time and, as the only US flagged carrier serving CAI, I had to use TW if I was on government funds because of Fly America. AA planned to take it on—DL had emerged as a competitor, operating JFK-CAI-DXB, but 9/11 made both routes unfeasible. By the time the market recovered, we had entered the era of the alliances and we were allowed to use codeshare flights.

And, yes, AA had declared its intention not to continue serving TLV when the merger was first announced—I even remember there was a special page on the merger website about why they were leaving TLV. I don’t remember when the final flights were planned, because the issue was mooted when their union filed with the Israeli court and they yanked everything over the possibility of the aircraft being impounded if it landed in Israel.
 
Chuska
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Re: TWA 747 Operations

Thu Aug 27, 2020 2:30 am

In the 70's you had TW760/761 SFO-LAX-LHR-CDG all 747. There were also 747's between ORD and LAS in the 70's.
In 1980 there was TW904/903 JFK-MAD-BCN. MAD-BCN was really short.
 
sspontak
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Re: TWA 747 Operations

Thu Aug 27, 2020 2:49 am

In my late teens in 1983, I did a day trip from JFK-BOS-JFK. JFK-BOS was on a Pan Am 727-200. The return BOS-JFK was on a TWA 747. The flight was only about half full and I remember the flight attendants managed to do a full beverage service. Does anyone know if the TWA 747 between BOS-JFK was a regular scheduled fllght back in 1983 or was this a one off flight? I suppose this was a continuation or a re-position flight from a transatlantic flight to BOS.
 
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sjones1975
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Re: TWA 747 Operations

Thu Aug 27, 2020 2:58 am

Cointrin330 wrote:
Pretty sure LIS and MXP were gone by 2001. They may have lived on from JFK for a short time longer than 1998/1999 but they were gone by the merger. London was served from STL to the end (LGW).


LIS and MXP may have been gone by summer 2001, but they were still around in late 2000. Here's a link with a route map and timetable from September 2000 showing that TWA still served those two cities from JFK:

http://airlinetimetables.blogspot.com/2 ... -2000.html

I also have a route map from December 2000 that still shows LIS and MXP. So LIS and MXP may not have made it to TWA's very end in late 2001, but they were sure close.
my longest flight in a 757: FRU-ADA-SNN-BWI
 
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SQ773
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Re: TWA 747 Operations

Thu Aug 27, 2020 9:31 am

Chuska wrote:
In the 70's you had TW760/761 SFO-LAX-LHR-CDG all 747. There were also 747's between ORD and LAS in the 70's.
In 1980 there was TW904/903 JFK-MAD-BCN. MAD-BCN was really short.



The BCN run was mostly done via LIS JFK-LIS-BCN with 747 ( TW901 westbound if I´m not mistaken ) . In winter they were replaced ocasionally with L1011. The 747 ops via LIS lasted several years whereas the BCN-MAD-JFK was really short.
 
Max Q
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Re: TWA 747 Operations

Thu Aug 27, 2020 10:19 am

WA707atMSP wrote:
The late Jon Proctor's website has some interesting stories about his experiences in the 1970s as an inflight supervisor on TWA's early 747 (and L-1011) flights. Here are links - it's WELL worth reading!

http://jonproctor.net/1971-twa-dcs/

http://jonproctor.net/1972-my-kind-of-town/




Well worth the read, love this kind of stuff, very well written, fascinating
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


GGg
 
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TW880
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Re: TWA 747 Operations

Thu Aug 27, 2020 3:22 pm

blacksoviet wrote:
jfk777 wrote:
blacksoviet wrote:
Did TWA ever operate 747 flights out of JFK Terminal 6, the Sundrome?


I took a flight to London Heathrow in 1985 from the Sundrome. For some reason that summer they were checking in London flights in that terminal then taking passengers to remote stands.

TWA did fly some 747 to LAX & SFO from that terminal especially in the winter schedule when Europe was off -peak.

Did you board a mobile lounge to get to your remote stand? I don’t know if a 747 could use a banjo gate without blocking one or both gates on either side.

There was a time when London and Lisbon departures we're departing from Terminal 6.

Does anybody remember which gate at T6 was the mobile lounge boarding gate? I believe T5 also had a mobile lounge gate.

It would have been nice to see a 777 in TWA livery at either T5 or T6.



TWA did in fact operate 747s from Terminal 6. Gate 3 was a designated 747 gate and the destinations were Los Angeles or San Francisco. There were at least two mobile lounge gates in Terminal 6. One of them was in the center area between gates 7 and 10 ( I just cannot recall which was the mobile lounge gate but I think it was gate 7) and there was a second mobile lounge gate and I believe it was gate 17.

Terminal 5 also had mobile lounge Gates as well. I am thinking one of them was Gate 21 which was shared with a jetway.

Mobile lounges were very common back in the day for both domestic and international flights.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: TWA 747 Operations

Thu Aug 27, 2020 3:26 pm

SQ773 wrote:
Chuska wrote:
In the 70's you had TW760/761 SFO-LAX-LHR-CDG all 747. There were also 747's between ORD and LAS in the 70's.
In 1980 there was TW904/903 JFK-MAD-BCN. MAD-BCN was really short.



The BCN run was mostly done via LIS JFK-LIS-BCN with 747 ( TW901 westbound if I´m not mistaken ) . In winter they were replaced ocasionally with L1011. The 747 ops via LIS lasted several years whereas the BCN-MAD-JFK was really short.


BCN was operated via LIS, and usually on a 767, not a 747. Toward the end, it was a 757.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: TWA 747 Operations

Thu Aug 27, 2020 3:27 pm

Chuska wrote:
In the 70's you had TW760/761 SFO-LAX-LHR-CDG all 747. There were also 747's between ORD and LAS in the 70's.
In 1980 there was TW904/903 JFK-MAD-BCN. MAD-BCN was really short.


Indeed, BCN was replaced as a tag from LIS. I think at times it was also served nonstop.
 
Bonafide
Posts: 15
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Re: TWA 747 Operations

Thu Aug 27, 2020 4:27 pm

My lone trip across the country on TWA came as a kid in the summer of 1989. SFO-JFK rt. I was initially under the impression that I was on a 747 both legs. But I then remembered the bathroom configuration in the back of the aircraft when I used it because it was so unique. A wall of bathrooms. Only seen on the TriStar. My question here is does anyone remember TWAs schedule then for SFO/JFK. I'm trying to figure out was the Tristar my trip out to JFK or my return.

Thanks Again
 
khowaga
Posts: 284
Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2010 1:07 pm

Re: TWA 747 Operations

Thu Aug 27, 2020 4:49 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
Chuska wrote:
In the 70's you had TW760/761 SFO-LAX-LHR-CDG all 747. There were also 747's between ORD and LAS in the 70's.
In 1980 there was TW904/903 JFK-MAD-BCN. MAD-BCN was really short.


Indeed, BCN was replaced as a tag from LIS. I think at times it was also served nonstop.

There was also a blink-and-you-missed it JFK-BCN-NCE. Not sure what equipment it was on.
 
Cointrin330
Topic Author
Posts: 2268
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 12:23 pm

Re: TWA 747 Operations

Thu Aug 27, 2020 4:52 pm

Bonafide wrote:
My lone trip across the country on TWA came as a kid in the summer of 1989. SFO-JFK rt. I was initially under the impression that I was on a 747 both legs. But I then remembered the bathroom configuration in the back of the aircraft when I used it because it was so unique. A wall of bathrooms. Only seen on the TriStar. My question here is does anyone remember TWAs schedule then for SFO/JFK. I'm trying to figure out was the Tristar my trip out to JFK or my return.

Thanks Again


The semi circular bathroom arrangement and layout at the rear of the plane was an L1011 feature on TWA. The airline did fly between JFK and LAX on the 747, SFO could have been a sub or a one off, or even a short lived regular service, but was mostly L1011s in the late 1980s.
 
21pilots
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Re: TWA 747 Operations

Thu Aug 27, 2020 5:57 pm

I think I remember seeing a TWA 747 at AMS as well sometime during the 90's, but don't know if my memory serves me right.
 
blacksoviet
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Re: TWA 747 Operations

Thu Aug 27, 2020 6:16 pm

TWA had a fleet of 9 747-200s and 4 747SPs. What routes were these planes used on?

One of the 742s was purchased from America West in 1994.
 
The777Man
Posts: 6142
Joined: Sun Jul 04, 1999 4:54 am

Re: TWA 747 Operations

Thu Aug 27, 2020 6:26 pm

khowaga wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
Chuska wrote:
In the 70's you had TW760/761 SFO-LAX-LHR-CDG all 747. There were also 747's between ORD and LAS in the 70's.
In 1980 there was TW904/903 JFK-MAD-BCN. MAD-BCN was really short.


Indeed, BCN was replaced as a tag from LIS. I think at times it was also served nonstop.

There was also a blink-and-you-missed it JFK-BCN-NCE. Not sure what equipment it was on.


762

The777Man
Boeing 777s flown: UA, TG, KE, BA, CX, NH, JD, JL, CZ, SQ, EK, NG, CO, AF, SV, KU, DL, AA, MH, OZ, CA, MS, SU, LY, RG, PE, AZ, KL, VN, PK, EY, NZ, AM, BR, AC, DT, UU, OS, AI, 9W, KQ, QR, VA, JJ, ET, TK, PR, BG, T5, CI, MU and LX.. Further to fly.. LH 777
 
Cointrin330
Topic Author
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Re: TWA 747 Operations

Thu Aug 27, 2020 6:42 pm

blacksoviet wrote:
TWA had a fleet of 9 747-200s and 4 747SPs. What routes were these planes used on?

One of the 742s was purchased from America West in 1994.


TWA operated a total of 37 Boeing 747s over the course of its existence, though not all at the same time. The fleet breakdown was as follows:

747-100 (27)
747-200 (7)
747-SP (3)

The 747-200s rotated into the fleet and operated a variety of routes, but mainly those where the -131 struggled (LHR-LAX, TLV-JFK, ATH-JFK), among the longest sectors in TWAs operations. There were 3 SP's as discussed further up in the thread. They were bought for nonstop routes to Saudi Arabia and Japan that never materialized at the time they were acquired, and were soon rotated into the operation flying routes like LAX-BOS-CDG, JFK-MXP, JFK-CAI-KWI, JFK-KWI-BOM, BOS-FCO, and LAX-LHR. The SP's arrived in 1980 and were gone by 1985.

Some of the -200s, if not all of them, were acquired second hand, and not factory fresh.
 
Cointrin330
Topic Author
Posts: 2268
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 12:23 pm

Re: TWA 747 Operations

Thu Aug 27, 2020 6:43 pm

21pilots wrote:
I think I remember seeing a TWA 747 at AMS as well sometime during the 90's, but don't know if my memory serves me right.


It's possible though AMS was only served from JFK and the route was usually an L1011 until it was dropped in 1996. Might have been a sub.
 
WA707atMSP
Posts: 2003
Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2006 8:16 pm

Re: TWA 747 Operations

Thu Aug 27, 2020 7:25 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
blacksoviet wrote:
TWA had a fleet of 9 747-200s and 4 747SPs. What routes were these planes used on?

One of the 742s was purchased from America West in 1994.


TWA operated a total of 37 Boeing 747s over the course of its existence, though not all at the same time. The fleet breakdown was as follows:

747-100 (27)
747-200 (7)
747-SP (3)

The 747-200s rotated into the fleet and operated a variety of routes, but mainly those where the -131 struggled (LHR-LAX, TLV-JFK, ATH-JFK), among the longest sectors in TWAs operations. There were 3 SP's as discussed further up in the thread. They were bought for nonstop routes to Saudi Arabia and Japan that never materialized at the time they were acquired, and were soon rotated into the operation flying routes like LAX-BOS-CDG, JFK-MXP, JFK-CAI-KWI, JFK-KWI-BOM, BOS-FCO, and LAX-LHR. The SP's arrived in 1980 and were gone by 1985.

Some of the -200s, if not all of them, were acquired second hand, and not factory fresh.


A minor correction to this post:

TWA did NOT buy 747 SPs in anticipation of flying them to Japan.

Although TWA had applied to fly from the US to Japan in the 1960s, after the Japanese government said they would not allow another US passenger airline to fly to Japan, the CAB denied TWA's application, as well as the applications of several other airlines. The CAB gave the routes TWA wanted to Northwest (from California to Japan via Hawaii) and Pan Am (from New York City to Japan via Fairbanks). The CAB did extend TWA's routes eastward from Hong Kong to California via Taipei, Okinawa, Guam, and Hawaii, but without authority to serve Japan, which generated much more transpacific traffic than HKG, TPE, or GUM, the route was unprofitable for TWA. An Air Transport World article in 1976 said TWA's trans pacific route lost $50 million, or $310 million in today's dollars, before TWA suspended service in 1974/75.

TWA applied to serve Japan again in the late 1990s, after the 747 SPs had been sold, but they did not have any applications to fly from the US East Coast to Japan in the late 1970s when the 747 SPs were ordered.
 
Cointrin330
Topic Author
Posts: 2268
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Re: TWA 747 Operations

Fri Aug 28, 2020 12:09 am

WA707atMSP wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
blacksoviet wrote:
TWA had a fleet of 9 747-200s and 4 747SPs. What routes were these planes used on?

One of the 742s was purchased from America West in 1994.


TWA operated a total of 37 Boeing 747s over the course of its existence, though not all at the same time. The fleet breakdown was as follows:

747-100 (27)
747-200 (7)
747-SP (3)

The 747-200s rotated into the fleet and operated a variety of routes, but mainly those where the -131 struggled (LHR-LAX, TLV-JFK, ATH-JFK), among the longest sectors in TWAs operations. There were 3 SP's as discussed further up in the thread. They were bought for nonstop routes to Saudi Arabia and Japan that never materialized at the time they were acquired, and were soon rotated into the operation flying routes like LAX-BOS-CDG, JFK-MXP, JFK-CAI-KWI, JFK-KWI-BOM, BOS-FCO, and LAX-LHR. The SP's arrived in 1980 and were gone by 1985.

Some of the -200s, if not all of them, were acquired second hand, and not factory fresh.


A minor correction to this post:

TWA did NOT buy 747 SPs in anticipation of flying them to Japan.

Although TWA had applied to fly from the US to Japan in the 1960s, after the Japanese government said they would not allow another US passenger airline to fly to Japan, the CAB denied TWA's application, as well as the applications of several other airlines. The CAB gave the routes TWA wanted to Northwest (from California to Japan via Hawaii) and Pan Am (from New York City to Japan via Fairbanks). The CAB did extend TWA's routes eastward from Hong Kong to California via Taipei, Okinawa, Guam, and Hawaii, but without authority to serve Japan, which generated much more transpacific traffic than HKG, TPE, or GUM, the route was unprofitable for TWA. An Air Transport World article in 1976 said TWA's trans pacific route lost $50 million, or $310 million in today's dollars, before TWA suspended service in 1974/75.

TWA applied to serve Japan again in the late 1990s, after the 747 SPs had been sold, but they did not have any applications to fly from the US East Coast to Japan in the late 1970s when the 747 SPs were ordered.


There has been a lot of posts and source citings on Japan routes for TWA and other references as to why the SP's were ordered. None fully verified. The question is why TWA ordered 4 SP's to begin with. The 747-100s had range issues (all were early models) that affected some of the airline's longest segments (LHR to LAX, TLV-JFK, ATH-JFK, CAI-JFK). The 4th SP was never delivered and returned to Boeing. One never flew in TWA colors and went to the UAE. The other two were used less for routes with range issues and more more extra lift. In the end, the SP did not work for TWA and it found it did not need them. A few more 747-200s became available and were acquired second hand by TWA and that likely helped the routes mentioned. The others that SP would have worked for (Kuwait, Riyadh, and possibly TPAC) did not materialize or were dropped. I'm curious as to why the SP was ordered. It was a slow seller an expensive to operate.
 
880dc8707
Posts: 75
Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2017 1:43 am

Re: TWA 747 Operations

Fri Aug 28, 2020 12:11 am

TWA also flew MAD AGP on the 747. I flew it. I dont know if this was regular or one off, I thought the tag on was 3 days AGP, 4 days BCN
 
khowaga
Posts: 284
Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2010 1:07 pm

TWA 747 Operations

Fri Aug 28, 2020 12:36 am

Cointrin330 wrote:
WA707atMSP wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:

TWA operated a total of 37 Boeing 747s over the course of its existence, though not all at the same time. The fleet breakdown was as follows:

747-100 (27)
747-200 (7)
747-SP (3)

The 747-200s rotated into the fleet and operated a variety of routes, but mainly those where the -131 struggled (LHR-LAX, TLV-JFK, ATH-JFK), among the longest sectors in TWAs operations. There were 3 SP's as discussed further up in the thread. They were bought for nonstop routes to Saudi Arabia and Japan that never materialized at the time they were acquired, and were soon rotated into the operation flying routes like LAX-BOS-CDG, JFK-MXP, JFK-CAI-KWI, JFK-KWI-BOM, BOS-FCO, and LAX-LHR. The SP's arrived in 1980 and were gone by 1985.

Some of the -200s, if not all of them, were acquired second hand, and not factory fresh.


A minor correction to this post:

TWA did NOT buy 747 SPs in anticipation of flying them to Japan.

Although TWA had applied to fly from the US to Japan in the 1960s, after the Japanese government said they would not allow another US passenger airline to fly to Japan, the CAB denied TWA's application, as well as the applications of several other airlines. The CAB gave the routes TWA wanted to Northwest (from California to Japan via Hawaii) and Pan Am (from New York City to Japan via Fairbanks). The CAB did extend TWA's routes eastward from Hong Kong to California via Taipei, Okinawa, Guam, and Hawaii, but without authority to serve Japan, which generated much more transpacific traffic than HKG, TPE, or GUM, the route was unprofitable for TWA. An Air Transport World article in 1976 said TWA's trans pacific route lost $50 million, or $310 million in today's dollars, before TWA suspended service in 1974/75.

TWA applied to serve Japan again in the late 1990s, after the 747 SPs had been sold, but they did not have any applications to fly from the US East Coast to Japan in the late 1970s when the 747 SPs were ordered.


There has been a lot of posts and source citings on Japan routes for TWA and other references as to why the SP's were ordered. None fully verified. The question is why TWA ordered 4 SP's to begin with. The 747-100s had range issues (all were early models) that affected some of the airline's longest segments (LHR to LAX, TLV-JFK, ATH-JFK, CAI-JFK). The 4th SP was never delivered and returned to Boeing. One never flew in TWA colors and went to the UAE. The other two were used less for routes with range issues and more more extra lift. In the end, the SP did not work for TWA and it found it did not need them. A few more 747-200s became available and were acquired second hand by TWA and that likely helped the routes mentioned. The others that SP would have worked for (Kuwait, Riyadh, and possibly TPAC) did not materialize or were dropped. I'm curious as to why the SP was ordered. It was a slow seller an expensive to operate.

IIRC, it was Dhahran, not Riyadh that the SPs were acquired (in part) for. You’re right about Japan, the TW brass were on record as saying that there was no money in trans-Pacific; they didn’t try until the early 90s when they proposed a same plane CMH-STL-NRT service (because of the Honda plant in Marysville, Ohio) on a 762, but the award went to HP’s short-lived PHX-HNL-NGO route instead.

The Dhahran route went to Pan Am instead (who also used an SP on the route). TW tried both BAH (via ATH) and KWI (via CAI, which became nonstop from JFK), but neither lasted very long.
 
User avatar
SQ773
Posts: 219
Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2005 7:24 pm

Re: TWA 747 Operations

Fri Aug 28, 2020 6:55 am

Cointrin330 wrote:
SQ773 wrote:
Chuska wrote:
In the 70's you had TW760/761 SFO-LAX-LHR-CDG all 747. There were also 747's between ORD and LAS in the 70's.
In 1980 there was TW904/903 JFK-MAD-BCN. MAD-BCN was really short.



The BCN run was mostly done via LIS JFK-LIS-BCN with 747 ( TW901 westbound if I´m not mistaken ) . In winter they were replaced ocasionally with L1011. The 747 ops via LIS lasted several years whereas the BCN-MAD-JFK was really short.


BCN was operated via LIS, and usually on a 767, not a 747. Toward the end, it was a 757.


Depending on which year we are talking about. The 747 served BCN for many years. In fact, the 747 operated to BCN far more years than the 767 did.

The sequence was 747/L1011 - 767- 757
 
ZRHYYZ773ER
Posts: 23
Joined: Sat May 02, 2020 2:14 pm

Re: TWA 747 Operations

Fri Aug 28, 2020 7:33 am

Hi Cointrain333

TWA used to fly the 747 to Zurich via CDG from the mid 80s - ca. 1994, sometimes a mix with the L10, later only the L10 with local traffic rights
TWA also used to have a 727 conn service ZRH-STR-TXL same like PA, TWA stopped the service quickly after the market opoening in 1990
I flew the L10 to CDG and back
later in 1988 they had the 767 JFK-ZRH nonstop service
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