El Al is expected to operate the first flight between TLV and Abu Dhabi next week the beginning of September carrying US and Israeli delegation

Should be interesting to follow and see the route if they fly over the KSA

https://onemileatatime.com/el-al-first-flight-uae/

I expect TLV - Dubai to be atleast a 3-4 daily within a year once regular traveling resumes

Very good!

So, LY has resumed flying? I don’t get it...

LY777 wrote:

Very good!

So, LY has resumed flying? I don’t get it...

They will resume but not yet , this is a symbolic flight . Israeli flag carrier landing in the UAE with US-Israel delegation

I understand the animosity at government level between Israel and Turkey, but if LY indeed regularly flies to UAE, but keeps avoiding Turkey as a market, that will be interesting.

amirs wrote:

El Al is expected to operate the first flight between TLV and Abu Dhabi next week the beginning of September carrying US and Israeli delegation

Should be interesting to follow and see the route if they fly over the KSA

https://onemileatatime.com/el-al-first-flight-uae/

I expect TLV - Dubai to be atleast a 3-4 daily within a year once regular traveling resumes

Actually there were 2 previous TLV-UAE flight done by EY earlier this year. This one will be the first since officially establishing diplomatic relations.

Viper911

Please avoid discussing the politics behind this. This is an aviation forum, so please just discuss aviation. The political situation can be discussed in Non Av.

✈️ atcsundevil

amirs wrote:

El Al is expected to operate the first flight between TLV and Abu Dhabi next week the beginning of September carrying US and Israeli delegation

Should be interesting to follow and see the route if they fly over the KSA

https://onemileatatime.com/el-al-first-flight-uae/

I expect TLV - Dubai to be atleast a 3-4 daily within a year once regular traveling resumes

3-4 daily? On what basis?

On a scheduled basis, this makes no business case for LY. It does make perfect sense for EK/FZ and EY/G9/5W. The business case is for travelers going east to eastern Asia and Australasia.

Now, as for this special flight...a B739 makes the most sense.

berari wrote:

amirs wrote:

El Al is expected to operate the first flight between TLV and Abu Dhabi next week the beginning of September carrying US and Israeli delegation

Should be interesting to follow and see the route if they fly over the KSA

https://onemileatatime.com/el-al-first-flight-uae/

I expect TLV - Dubai to be atleast a 3-4 daily within a year once regular traveling resumes

3-4 daily? On what basis?

There is a lot of money, finance, tech, investment, innovation, hospitality, etc in TLV and UAE, doesn’t seem too far fetched to connect the wealthiest cities in the region.

aemoreira1981 wrote:

On a scheduled basis, this makes no business case for LY. It does make perfect sense for EK/FZ and EY/G9/5W. The business case is for travelers going east to eastern Asia and Australasia.

Now, as for this special flight...a B739 makes the most sense.

This will become a huge holiday destinations for Israelis , especially Dubai . It will not only be for connecting passengers .


This special flight will probably be on a 789

amirs wrote:

El Al is expected to operate the first flight between TLV and Abu Dhabi next week the beginning of September carrying US and Israeli delegation

Should be interesting to follow and see the route if they fly over the KSA

I think so, because the alternative would be Turkey.

I wonder if they could do some kind of codeshare agreement with EK, allowing El Al passengers to access Emirate's Asian network via Dubai whilst giving LY a share of the profit. Of course, they'd have to do it quietly and not have LY flight numbers all over Emirates flights.

Regarding the route, it will certainly be over Saudi Arabia because this is the most direct route and it also avoids countries that are hostile to their alliance. Israel almost borders SA anyway (Eilat).

peterinlisbon wrote:

I wonder if they could do some kind of codeshare agreement with EK, allowing El Al passengers to access Emirate's Asian network via Dubai whilst giving LY a share of the profit. Of course, they'd have to do it quietly and not have LY flight numbers all over Emirates flights.

So an invisible codeshare? Perhaps an interline agreement would be best, at least to start off with. Lets walk before we can run, eh? The COVID entry restrictions to the UAE are severe, DXB is the only point of entry and multiple negative COIVID-19 tests are required. That will hamper traffic for the foreseeable.

peterinlisbon wrote:

amirs wrote:

El Al is expected to operate the first flight between TLV and Abu Dhabi next week the beginning of September carrying US and Israeli delegation

Should be interesting to follow and see the route if they fly over the KSA

I think so, because the alternative would be Turkey.

When EY flew to TLV a few months ago, they tried two different routes, one north over Iraq and Turkey, and the other south over KSA. Those were clearly proving flights for what's upcoming. As I have said before, the connections to MNL, SIN, and AUS/NZ alone will fill at least a daily flight. Of course, once the world is more normal. El Al will most likely not operate a DXB/AUH flight for the same reason that they don't fly to IST anymore, the vast majority of the traffic is connections. I do see Israir operating tourist charters to DXB though.

AshFlops wrote:

peterinlisbon wrote:

amirs wrote:

El Al is expected to operate the first flight between TLV and Abu Dhabi next week the beginning of September carrying US and Israeli delegation

Should be interesting to follow and see the route if they fly over the KSA

I think so, because the alternative would be Turkey.

When EY flew to TLV a few months ago, they tried two different routes, one north over Iraq and Turkey, and the other south over KSA. Those were clearly proving flights for what's upcoming. As I have said before, the connections to MNL, SIN, and AUS/NZ alone will fill at least a daily flight. Of course, once the world is more normal. El Al will most likely not operate a DXB/AUH flight for the same reason that they don't fly to IST anymore, the vast majority of the traffic is connections. I do see Israir operating tourist charters to DXB though.

Both flights routed via Iraq/Turkey, no overflight rights from KSA.

amirs wrote:

aemoreira1981 wrote:

On a scheduled basis, this makes no business case for LY. It does make perfect sense for EK/FZ and EY/G9/5W. The business case is for travelers going east to eastern Asia and Australasia.

Now, as for this special flight...a B739 makes the most sense.

This will become a huge holiday destinations for Israelis , especially Dubai . It will not only be for connecting passengers .


This special flight will probably be on a 789

Will be operated by B737-900ER (4XEHD planned at the moment)

This is a very exciting news. Congratulations to Israel and UAE. I wish I could be on this flight!

yochai wrote:

amirs wrote:

aemoreira1981 wrote:

On a scheduled basis, this makes no business case for LY. It does make perfect sense for EK/FZ and EY/G9/5W. The business case is for travelers going east to eastern Asia and Australasia.

Now, as for this special flight...a B739 makes the most sense.

This will become a huge holiday destinations for Israelis , especially Dubai . It will not only be for connecting passengers .


This special flight will probably be on a 789

Will be operated by B737-900ER (4XEHD planned at the moment)

Yes it has been flying today (probably removed from storage conditions in preparation for this special flight). I wish it would have been a 789 though...(4X-EDD).

if KSA doesn't give its approval, I guess it will be showstopper because otherwise the plane would have to come through the Gulf, and very close to Iranian airspace ?

yochai wrote:

amirs wrote:

aemoreira1981 wrote:

On a scheduled basis, this makes no business case for LY. It does make perfect sense for EK/FZ and EY/G9/5W. The business case is for travelers going east to eastern Asia and Australasia.

Now, as for this special flight...a B739 makes the most sense.

This will become a huge holiday destinations for Israelis , especially Dubai . It will not only be for connecting passengers .


This special flight will probably be on a 789

Will be operated by B737-900ER (4XEHD planned at the moment)

Didn’t they say it would be operated with a Dreamliner ?

LY777 wrote:

Didn’t they say it would be operated with a Dreamliner ?

Since there hasn't been an official announcement re: the airplane type, it was assumed the flight would be operated with a 787 Dreamliner, since it's El Al's flagship aircraft at the moment.

Per Times of Israel LY 971 to UAE
And LY 972 return
Based on international dialing codes for UAE and Israel


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Are the UAE and Israel going to have open skies or will there be a restriction on flights? I assume the UAE will want open skies and the Israel government may want to increase inbound tourism associated with open skies. However, this would severely affect Israel carriers as presumably passengers will prefer UAE carriers for their superior service.

aemoreira1981 wrote:

On a scheduled basis, this makes no business case for LY. It does make perfect sense for EK/FZ and EY/G9/5W. The business case is for travelers going east to eastern Asia and Australasia.

Now, as for this special flight...a B739 makes the most sense.

Why not westwards (e.g., North America) with UAE carriers? Sure there will be some backtracking going into DXB or AUH but passengers would experience far superior service, combined with a free stop over, if needed. In addition, who knows if UAE carriers will price Israel to N. America tickets lower than the prices for direct Israel to N. America flights?

New York to Tel Aviv via Dubai is an extra 5 hours of time in the air. Add time taxiing, changing planes, etc.... and you're looking at maybe an extra 8 or more hours travel time. Yes, some people will want to save the money by going for the absolute cheapest ticket - but to an airline, this translate into "low yield". If Emirates or Etihad really do price Tel Aviv - N.America below that of non-stop flights, they have a significant cost disadvantage compared to European airlines - in that they have to fly the passenger *much* further to get them to their destination
Stick the routes in Great Circle Mapper if you don't believe me - and then compare with flying via places like London, Paris, Moscow or Istanbul
http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=NYC-TLV%0D ... =wls&DU=mi

Israel - N.America is a route where Emirates or Etihad are going to struggle to make a profit while carrying large numbers of pax

I think it's unlikely that there will be a freedom-of-the-skies deal for UAE carriers to fly between Israel and countries other than the UAE. Emirates flying non-stop between Tel Aviv and the USA seems highly unlikely. There will be plenty of opportunity for EK/EY to connect pax between Tel Aviv and Asia / Australasia / East Africa

If they’re flying over Iraq to bypass KSA airspace, why do they need to fly over Turkey? Can’t they just fly over Jordan to Iraq?

For LY, I’m sure they could support a few O&D flights to Dubai just on business connections and tourism alone. For EK, this will be a huge market. DXB is a perfect connecting point from Israel to Asia, Australia, and even Africa.

davidjohnson6 wrote:

New York to Tel Aviv via Dubai is an extra 5 hours of time in the air. Add time taxiing, changing planes, etc.... and you're looking at maybe an extra 8 or more hours travel time. Yes, some people will want to save the money by going for the absolute cheapest ticket - but to an airline, this translate into "low yield". If Emirates or Etihad really do price Tel Aviv - N.America below that of non-stop flights, they have a significant cost disadvantage compared to European airlines - in that they have to fly the passenger *much* further to get them to their destination
Stick the routes in Great Circle Mapper if you don't believe me - and then compare with flying via places like London, Paris, Moscow or Istanbul
http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=NYC-TLV%0D ... =wls&DU=mi

Israel - N.America is a route where Emirates or Etihad are going to struggle to make a profit while carrying large numbers of pax

I think it's unlikely that there will be a freedom-of-the-skies deal for UAE carriers to fly between Israel and countries other than the UAE. Emirates flying non-stop between Tel Aviv and the USA seems highly unlikely. There will be plenty of opportunity for EK/EY to connect pax between Tel Aviv and Asia / Australasia / East Africa

I don't get the 5 hours. Isn't a direct flight from TLV to DXB just 2 hours or less?

I was inquiring about open skies BETWEEN UAE and Israel (i.e., not EK flying from TLV to Chicago).

edealinfo wrote:

I don't get the 5 hours. Isn't a direct flight from TLV to DXB just 2 hours or less?
.

Probably not for an Israeli aircraft. I suppose LY won't be able to fly in Saudi airspace. The alternate route is also quite interesting, through the Red Sea, Gulf of Aden and then squeezing through the Omani and Pakistani airspaces (neither of which allowed Israeli-registered aircraft before). I guess we'll have to wait for Monday for the actual route.

TLV to DXB is 1,326 miles. Can someone translate this to flying hours?

NYC-DXB takes between 2h and 2h30 more than NYC-TLV
DXB-TLV will take at least 3h, assuming Saudi Arabia gives overflight rights. Add maybe 2h30 for changing planes in DXB, and perhaps an extra 30m at TLV for travelling via a destination deemed high risk by security personnel in TLV (ie all the extra screening) and you have a trip taking an extra 8h compared to a non-stop flight, along with the increased cost to the airline and the lower fare that can be charged for the extra travel time pax spend. It's not a pretty sight for the accountants at EK/EY...

davidjohnson6 wrote:

NYC-DXB takes between 2h and 2h30 more than NYC-TLV
DXB-TLV will take at least 3h, assuming Saudi Arabia gives overflight rights. Add maybe 2h30 for changing planes in DXB, and perhaps an extra 30m at TLV for travelling via a destination deemed high risk by security personnel in TLV (ie all the extra screening) and you have a trip taking an extra 8h compared to a non-stop flight, along with the increased cost to the airline and the lower fare that can be charged for the extra travel time pax spend. It's not a pretty sight for the accountants at EK/EY...

I don't get this one bit. As far as I understand, currently many are taking the bus from Tel Aviv to Jordan to catch the EK flight from Jordan to DXB, and from there, to fly all over the world including N. America. So, in this structure isn't TLV to DXB as part of the larger routing be better than a bus die from TLV to Jordan, and then a flight from Jordan to DXB?

I agree that many are taking the bus from Tel Aviv to Amman and then catching an EK flight to DXB from Amman.
However, are those pax then flying DXB to N.America or are they flying from DXB to Asia/East Africa/Australasia ?

davidjohnson6 wrote:

I agree that many are taking the bus from Tel Aviv to Amman and then catching an EK flight to DXB from Amman.
However, are those pax then flying DXB to N.America or are they flying from DXB to Asia/East Africa/Australasia ?

Going to AMM to pick up EK/EY/QR makes the most sense for eastbound traffic, since there’s a multitude of options out of Israel on LY, UA, DL, TK or multiple European carriers to North (and even South) America.

No reason to add the road trip (and associated expense) on top of a 3-4 hour detour to the Gulf when there’s plenty of options from TLV.

davidjohnson6 wrote:

New York to Tel Aviv via Dubai is an extra 5 hours of time in the air. Add time taxiing, changing planes, etc.... and you're looking at maybe an extra 8 or more hours travel time. Yes, some people will want to save the money by going for the absolute cheapest ticket - but to an airline, this translate into "low yield". If Emirates or Etihad really do price Tel Aviv - N.America below that of non-stop flights, they have a significant cost disadvantage compared to European airlines - in that they have to fly the passenger *much* further to get them to their destination
Stick the routes in Great Circle Mapper if you don't believe me - and then compare with flying via places like London, Paris, Moscow or Istanbul
http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=NYC-TLV%0D ... =wls&DU=mi

Israel - N.America is a route where Emirates or Etihad are going to struggle to make a profit while carrying large numbers of pax

I think it's unlikely that there will be a freedom-of-the-skies deal for UAE carriers to fly between Israel and countries other than the UAE. Emirates flying non-stop between Tel Aviv and the USA seems highly unlikely. There will be plenty of opportunity for EK/EY to connect pax between Tel Aviv and Asia / Australasia / East Africa

TLV-JFK passengers who want it cheap will go with TK and any other European carriers that happen to offer a low fare at the dates they want to fly. EK and EY would be a major back-track, especially assuming that DXB/AUH-TLV will not be flying the shortest route over Saudi Arabia.

But EK and EY will capture a large proportion of the traffic between Asia and Israel. Business travel between Asia and Israel was on the rise before COVID. There are also steady Christian pilgrimage traffic, especially between Philippines and Korea and Israel. Those are more price sensitive and the connection at DXB will actually provide better frequency. ICN-TLV on KE was less than daily and there is no non-stop to MNL. TLV doesn't really have a lot of non-stop destinations for East Asia now. There aren't even a lot of choices for connections now unless you backtrack via IST or Europe.

Tel Aviv Dubai West Coast USA would be very competitive on timing with Emirates as they fly north over the Caucuses Russia and high over Scandinavia and there white wildernesses , towards Greenland and Canada.

YYZLGA wrote:

For LY, I’m sure they could support a few O&D flights to Dubai just on business connections and tourism alone.

I wonder how many Israeli tourists will go to UAE.
What can they get there?
- A place where it's warm enough (and frequently way too warm) to bath? They have their own coasts, close mediteranean countries that are not hostile towards Israel and if they want to try the kind of bathing hell that the Gulf is in summer, the just have to go to Eilat or the Dead Sea.
- Cultural tourism is not exactly what is drawing people to UAE
- Shopping may be an option. I have no idea how fond of shopping are Israeli tourists. But they have other options.
- Curiosity to see that impressive place that Dubai and Abu Dhabi are can be a motive but I see this as being more the subject of a short layover, which would obviously favor UAE airlines.

So, considering all that, I would tend to think that El Al shouldn't hope too much on tourism in UAE. On the other direction, they may have some potential with religious tourism from UAE to Jerusalem, but I wonder if those tourists will be very keen on flying on an Israeli airlines (at least in coming years).

On the other hand, I'm sure there is plenty of potential to bank on business ties as there are strong collaborations to have, especially in tech and defense industries.

LY 971 Aug 31 TLV - AUH 10:00-14:35
LY 972 Sept 1 AUH - TLV 12:30-15:15

First time 4x registered commercial aircraft to fly over KSA

Flight plan
https://twitter.com/itayblumental/status/1298965156886720512?s=21

amirs wrote:

Flight plan
https://twitter.com/itayblumental/status/1298965156886720512?s=21

so permission obtained for saudi overflight. after all, jared kusher will be on the flight. the question is whether permanent overflight will be allowed and not a one-off.

Toinou wrote:

YYZLGA wrote:

For LY, I’m sure they could support a few O&D flights to Dubai just on business connections and tourism alone.

I wonder how many Israeli tourists will go to UAE.
What can they get there?
- A place where it's warm enough (and frequently way too warm) to bath? They have their own coasts, close mediteranean countries that are not hostile towards Israel and if they want to try the kind of bathing hell that the Gulf is in summer, the just have to go to Eilat or the Dead Sea.
- Cultural tourism is not exactly what is drawing people to UAE
- Shopping may be an option. I have no idea how fond of shopping are Israeli tourists. But they have other options.
- Curiosity to see that impressive place that Dubai and Abu Dhabi are can be a motive but I see this as being more the subject of a short layover, which would obviously favor UAE airlines.

So, considering all that, I would tend to think that El Al shouldn't hope too much on tourism in UAE. On the other direction, they may have some potential with religious tourism from UAE to Jerusalem, but I wonder if those tourists will be very keen on flying on an Israeli airlines (at least in coming years).

On the other hand, I'm sure there is plenty of potential to bank on business ties as there are strong collaborations to have, especially in tech and defense industries.

Israel can develop a diamond trade center. Heck, Dubai is all glitz and known for its gold bazaar. Maybe the Israelis can build a huge diamond trade and retail center with an all glass building facade and designed in the shape of a diamond to make a big splash and get tourists and others to visit and buy. Maybe De Beers can join in.

amirs wrote:

LY 971 Aug 31 TLV - AUH 10:00-14:35
LY 972 Sept 1 AUH - TLV 12:30-15:15

First time 4x registered commercial aircraft to fly over KSA

what is the meaning of "4x" commercial aircraft?

Registration of Israeli aircraft start with 4X- ...

cityshuttle wrote:

Registration of Israeli aircraft start with 4X- ...

Thanks. Will they be using a 787 for this flight?

edealinfo wrote:

amirs wrote:

Flight plan
https://twitter.com/itayblumental/status/1298965156886720512?s=21

so permission obtained for saudi overflight. after all, jared kusher will be on the flight. the question is whether permanent overflight will be allowed and not a one-off.

if saudi allows israeli overflights for all TLV to UAE flights, does this mean it it will allow overflights for all israeli flights regardless of origin and destination?

edealinfo wrote:

cityshuttle wrote:

Registration of Israeli aircraft start with 4X- ...

Thanks. Will they be using a 787 for this flight?

Sources close to the airline say it will be a Boeing 737-900ER (4X-EHD).

upintheair2019 wrote:

edealinfo wrote:

cityshuttle wrote:

Registration of Israeli aircraft start with 4X- ...

Thanks. Will they be using a 787 for this flight?

Sources close to the airline say it will be a Boeing 737-900ER (4X-EHD).

Yikes; this is poor marketing in my opinion. i would assume the press would cover this extensively and when you have TV cameras - size does matter. Does El Al have a marketing department?

I completely agree with you. I understand El Al is in deep financial crap now, but for the sake of their reputation, they should have the planned to send their 787 or at least a 777.

edealinfo wrote:

upintheair2019 wrote:

edealinfo wrote:

Thanks. Will they be using a 787 for this flight?

Sources close to the airline say it will be a Boeing 737-900ER (4X-EHD).

Yikes; this is poor marketing in my opinion. i would assume the press would cover this extensively and when you have TV cameras - size does matter. Does El Al have a marketing department?

raylee67 wrote:

davidjohnson6 wrote:

New York to Tel Aviv via Dubai is an extra 5 hours of time in the air. Add time taxiing, changing planes, etc.... and you're looking at maybe an extra 8 or more hours travel time. Yes, some people will want to save the money by going for the absolute cheapest ticket - but to an airline, this translate into "low yield". If Emirates or Etihad really do price Tel Aviv - N.America below that of non-stop flights, they have a significant cost disadvantage compared to European airlines - in that they have to fly the passenger *much* further to get them to their destination
Stick the routes in Great Circle Mapper if you don't believe me - and then compare with flying via places like London, Paris, Moscow or Istanbul
http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=NYC-TLV%0D ... =wls&DU=mi

Israel - N.America is a route where Emirates or Etihad are going to struggle to make a profit while carrying large numbers of pax

I think it's unlikely that there will be a freedom-of-the-skies deal for UAE carriers to fly between Israel and countries other than the UAE. Emirates flying non-stop between Tel Aviv and the USA seems highly unlikely. There will be plenty of opportunity for EK/EY to connect pax between Tel Aviv and Asia / Australasia / East Africa

TLV-JFK passengers who want it cheap will go with TK and any other European carriers that happen to offer a low fare at the dates they want to fly. EK and EY would be a major back-track, especially assuming that DXB/AUH-TLV will not be flying the shortest route over Saudi Arabia.

But EK and EY will capture a large proportion of the traffic between Asia and Israel. Business travel between Asia and Israel was on the rise before COVID. There are also steady Christian pilgrimage traffic, especially between Philippines and Korea and Israel. Those are more price sensitive and the connection at DXB will actually provide better frequency. ICN-TLV on KE was less than daily and there is no non-stop to MNL. TLV doesn't really have a lot of non-stop destinations for East Asia now. There aren't even a lot of choices for connections now unless you backtrack via IST or Europe.

North America to Israel traffic that is looking for the absolute lowest price point will route through Moscow, Warsaw, or Kiev. Previously a lot of them routed through KEF on Wow.

amirs wrote:

Flight plan
https://twitter.com/itayblumental/status/1298965156886720512?s=21

According to the plan, the arrival airport is OMDB which is Dubai International Airport.

amax1977 wrote:

I completely agree with you. I understand El Al is in deep financial crap now, but for the sake of their reputation, they should have the planned to send their 787 or at least a 777.

edealinfo wrote:

upintheair2019 wrote:

Sources close to the airline say it will be a Boeing 737-900ER (4X-EHD).

Yikes; this is poor marketing in my opinion. i would assume the press would cover this extensively and when you have TV cameras - size does matter. Does El Al have a marketing department?

I applaud them for making a very sensible decision. When you are laying of people you just can not justify a 787/777. Especially in these times. And especially not if you value your workforce and stakeholders. I know it's historic but you have to use common sense too.

Avgeek21 wrote:

amax1977 wrote:

I completely agree with you. I understand El Al is in deep financial crap now, but for the sake of their reputation, they should have the planned to send their 787 or at least a 777.

edealinfo wrote:

Yikes; this is poor marketing in my opinion. i would assume the press would cover this extensively and when you have TV cameras - size does matter. Does El Al have a marketing department?

I applaud them for making a very sensible decision. When you are laying of people you just can not justify a 787/777. Especially in these times. And especially not if you value your workforce and stakeholders. I know it's historic but you have to use common sense too.

As its a flight carrying top US and Israeli officials, can't the Israeli government pay for a B787 to be used?