huaiwei wrote:

Absolutely unimaginable!

A month ago I would have said that's a nice but fanciful Photoshop job. A bright spot in an dark year for sure.

YYZSpotter1991 wrote:

Once COVID is under control, there should be an explosion in demand between the UAE and Israel. It will also mean Turkish Airlines would no longer be the preferred transit carrier to passengers from Tel Aviv to other destinations.

For the South East Asian and Australasia and maybe for some USA West Coast destinations (for the latter, with transit via S'Pore/Hong Kong/Taipei/Bangkok & Tokyo/Seul at the expense of longer flying hours...) why should the Israeli's choose to fly longer in order to reach European, USA West Coast & Canadian as well as South American destinations at the preference of EK?

Wizz Air already have 12 or so destinations to/from TLV ... I would imagine their 5W base might want to put their hand up for approval on the AUH-TLV route as well.

Bricktop wrote:

huaiwei wrote:

Absolutely unimaginable!

A month ago I would have said that's a nice but fanciful Photoshop job. A bright spot in an dark year for sure.

My brain is having trouble processing the fact this is real.

Kudos to one big step in the peace process.

Lightsaber

LTCM wrote:

Seabear wrote:

"Saudi Arabia announced Wednesday that it would allow any flights going to and from the United Arab Emirates to fly over its territory, a move that would give Israel access to some of the kingdom’s airspace for the first time."

Saudi Arabia Opens Airspace to Israeli Flights for First Time https://nyti.ms/31OYIyY

That's great to hear. Couldn't be more happy for everyone involved.

The middle East is about to exploded with new diplomatic relations - a kind of bomb they haven't experienced in a long long time.

Sorry to post twice in a row, but wow.

The debate now shifts to the terms of the Israeli/UAE bilateral. OMG... This is one big Olive branch.

Lightsaber

lightsaber wrote:

LTCM wrote:

Seabear wrote:

The debate now shifts to the terms of the Israeli/UAE bilateral.

Lightsaber

Could you provide a link to presumably the separate thread for it?

Toinou wrote:

YYZLGA wrote:

For LY, I’m sure they could support a few O&D flights to Dubai just on business connections and tourism alone.

I wonder how many Israeli tourists will go to UAE.
What can they get there?
- A place where it's warm enough (and frequently way too warm) to bath? They have their own coasts, close mediteranean countries that are not hostile towards Israel and if they want to try the kind of bathing hell that the Gulf is in summer, the just have to go to Eilat or the Dead Sea.
- Cultural tourism is not exactly what is drawing people to UAE
- Shopping may be an option. I have no idea how fond of shopping are Israeli tourists. But they have other options.
- Curiosity to see that impressive place that Dubai and Abu Dhabi are can be a motive but I see this as being more the subject of a short layover, which would obviously favor UAE airlines.

So, considering all that, I would tend to think that El Al shouldn't hope too much on tourism in UAE. On the other direction, they may have some potential with religious tourism from UAE to Jerusalem, but I wonder if those tourists will be very keen on flying on an Israeli airlines (at least in coming years).

On the other hand, I'm sure there is plenty of potential to bank on business ties as there are strong collaborations to have, especially in tech and defense industries.

Shopping is a huge part of it. Dubai is an incredibly popular shopping destination for people from all over. There are a lot of brands that are hard to get elsewhere, it's a big centre for jewellery/gold, and there are no taxes. On very high-end products, you can save a lot of money vs buying in, say, Paris (with its 20% VAT) on taxes alone.

berari wrote:

amirs wrote:

El Al is expected to operate the first flight between TLV and Abu Dhabi next week the beginning of September carrying US and Israeli delegation

Should be interesting to follow and see the route if they fly over the KSA

https://onemileatatime.com/el-al-first-flight-uae/

I expect TLV - Dubai to be atleast a 3-4 daily within a year once regular traveling resumes

3-4 daily? On what basis?

On the basis of tourism and business and connecting traffic
But i was wrong - might be closer to 6. According to Israeli news , Emirates alone filed and requested 4 daily flights .
El Al , Arkia and Israir filed a request today as well.

When a new country pair becomes available due to peace breaking out between nations, airlines typically get excited, bidding for frequencies and generally jostling for position and market share. Once tickets go on sale, and flights begin operating there is a shakeout, with the over-optimistic forecasts of many airlines are suddenly exposed to market reality... weaker players withdraw from the route while stronger players cut their frequencies. Look at how the US-Cuba market has developed over the last few years to see what I mean - every US airline bid for a route from middle-of-nowhere villages... we ended up with flights primarily from Havana to Florida, where the Cuban diaspora is based, and NYC. Routes from places like Varadero, Santiago, Camaguey, Denver, Los Angeles and Minneapolis - they all turned to dust

We're still in a pandemic, which makes demand significantly worse. Right now, El Al isn't really flying anywhere at all, while much of EK's fleet is grounded. A metaphorical 4x daily A380 on DXB-TLV is not going to happen in the next 12 months.

davidjohnson6 wrote:

When a new country pair becomes available due to peace breaking out between nations, airlines typically get excited, bidding for frequencies and generally jostling for position and market share. Once tickets go on sale, and flights begin operating there is a shakeout, with the over-optimistic forecasts of many airlines are suddenly exposed to market reality... weaker players withdraw from the route while stronger players cut their frequencies. Look at how the US-Cuba market has developed over the last few years to see what I mean - every US airline bid for a route from middle-of-nowhere villages... we ended up with flights primarily from Havana to Florida, where the Cuban diaspora is based, and NYC. Routes from places like Varadero, Santiago, Camaguey, Denver, Los Angeles and Minneapolis - they all turned to dust

We're still in a pandemic, which makes demand significantly worse. Right now, El Al isn't really flying anywhere at all, while much of EK's fleet is grounded. A metaphorical 4x daily A380 on DXB-TLV is not going to happen in the next 12 months.

Don't think a 4xdaily A380 to TLV will ever happen. I can see 2xdaily 777s maybe.

Wonder how easy it will be for tourism in the opposite direction I.e. UAE -> TLV though?

Greetings everyone,

El Al (LY) announce weekly cargo flights to Dubai. A strange routing, but there must be valid reasons for this,

Link below:-


https://www.france24.com/en/20200903-is ... t-to-dubai

Keep safe.
IntaJET

davidjohnson6 wrote:

When a new country pair becomes available due to peace breaking out between nations, airlines typically get excited, bidding for frequencies and generally jostling for position and market share. Once tickets go on sale, and flights begin operating there is a shakeout, with the over-optimistic forecasts of many airlines are suddenly exposed to market reality... weaker players withdraw from the route while stronger players cut their frequencies. Look at how the US-Cuba market has developed over the last few years to see what I mean - every US airline bid for a route from middle-of-nowhere villages... we ended up with flights primarily from Havana to Florida, where the Cuban diaspora is based, and NYC. Routes from places like Varadero, Santiago, Camaguey, Denver, Los Angeles and Minneapolis - they all turned to dust

We're still in a pandemic, which makes demand significantly worse. Right now, El Al isn't really flying anywhere at all, while much of EK's fleet is grounded. A metaphorical 4x daily A380 on DXB-TLV is not going to happen in the next 12 months.

TLV-UAE is by no means any similar to USA-Cuba

DXB/AUH is a huge transit point, if IST can support 10 daily flights year round including multiple daily widebodies there is no reason DXB will not. Dubai is a huge world renowned tourism hotstop attracting millions of tourists each year, and Israelis have long been hoping to go there on holidays, and it will be a huge market for Israelis for sure. Also, there is going to be huge trade and business between the 2 countries. Also, lots of Arab Israelis will go there on holidays as they speak the language. All in all, TLV-UAE will be a huge market.

yochai wrote:

davidjohnson6 wrote:

When a new country pair becomes available due to peace breaking out between nations, airlines typically get excited, bidding for frequencies and generally jostling for position and market share. Once tickets go on sale, and flights begin operating there is a shakeout, with the over-optimistic forecasts of many airlines are suddenly exposed to market reality... weaker players withdraw from the route while stronger players cut their frequencies. Look at how the US-Cuba market has developed over the last few years to see what I mean - every US airline bid for a route from middle-of-nowhere villages... we ended up with flights primarily from Havana to Florida, where the Cuban diaspora is based, and NYC. Routes from places like Varadero, Santiago, Camaguey, Denver, Los Angeles and Minneapolis - they all turned to dust

We're still in a pandemic, which makes demand significantly worse. Right now, El Al isn't really flying anywhere at all, while much of EK's fleet is grounded. A metaphorical 4x daily A380 on DXB-TLV is not going to happen in the next 12 months.

TLV-UAE is by no means any similar to USA-Cuba

DXB/AUH is a huge transit point, if IST can support 10 daily flights year round including multiple daily widebodies there is no reason DXB will not. Dubai is a huge world renowned tourism hotstop attracting millions of tourists each year, and Israelis have long been hoping to go there on holidays, and it will be a huge market for Israelis for sure. Also, there is going to be huge trade and business between the 2 countries. Also, lots of Arab Israelis will go there on holidays as they speak the language. All in all, TLV-UAE will be a huge market.

I think people from UAE will also come to Israel, and not only to Jerusalem

Seabear wrote:

"Saudi Arabia announced Wednesday that it would allow any flights going to and from the United Arab Emirates to fly over its territory, a move that would give Israel access to some of the kingdom’s airspace for the first time."

Saudi Arabia Opens Airspace to Israeli Flights for First Time https://nyti.ms/31OYIyY

There might be a couple EK destinations which might benefit from EK being allowed to fly over Saudi and Israeli airspace. DXB-LCA Cyprus comes to mind.

Not as significant as Saudi Arabia, but more good news:

Bahrain to allow flights between Israel and UAE to cross its airspace

https://www.jpost.com/breaking-news/bah ... ace-641061

Is Israel now the closest liberal, alcohol-friendly place for people from the UAE? (though not the cheapest destination out there)

Blerg wrote:

Is Israel now the closest liberal, alcohol-friendly place for people from the UAE? (though not the cheapest destination out there)

Hmm, good question, Beirut should be about the same distance. Always lots of very sexy and well off Arab ladies out having a few drinks in Beirut (before the explosion).
Going south, Ethiopia? Seychelles feels bit to far even though the line is more straight.

YYZLGA wrote:

Shopping is a huge part of it. Dubai is an incredibly popular shopping destination for people from all over. There are a lot of brands that are hard to get elsewhere, it's a big centre for jewellery/gold, and there are no taxes. On very high-end products, you can save a lot of money vs buying in, say, Paris (with its 20% VAT) on taxes alone.

Shopping (e.g. clothing) is not cheaper in UAE that in Europe, although it is probably cheaper than in Israel. There might be no taxes but local importers just raise the prices to level them to Euro prices. Most people buying in the UAE are people from "poor" countries where you cannot find Western stores (e.g. wealthy Iranians or Iraqis shopping Zara or H&M or Armani). You have most of those brands in Israel. I agree though that in GCC there are many secondary American or Asian brands that you cannot find in Europe or Israel, but I don't think that is a deal breaker.

I think the advantage of UAE for Israeli tourists is that the UAE (specially now with the recession) has quite cheap hotels (luxury hotels are overall much much cheaper than in Israel) and eating out is also way cheaper. And the USD falling (and the AED is pegged to the USD) makes the UAE even more affordable.

So I can see Israeli tourists taking a 1-week beach holiday in Ras Al Khaimah + Dubai because (other than being something new and exotic) simply it is much cheaper than going to Eilat, and it is not "worse". After all the UAE is a developed country, it is nothing comparable to Turkey or one of those "affordable" countries.

YYZLGA wrote:

Toinou wrote:

- Shopping may be an option. I have no idea how fond of shopping are Israeli tourists. But they have other options.

Shopping is a huge part of it. Dubai is an incredibly popular shopping destination for people from all over. There are a lot of brands that are hard to get elsewhere, it's a big centre for jewellery/gold, and there are no taxes. On very high-end products, you can save a lot of money vs buying in, say, Paris (with its 20% VAT) on taxes alone.

I know that shopping is a big part of Dubai's traction to tourists. My question was not about that, it was whether this is what most Israeli tourists are looking for, which I still doubt.

Toinou wrote:

YYZLGA wrote:

Toinou wrote:

- Shopping may be an option. I have no idea how fond of shopping are Israeli tourists. But they have other options.

Shopping is a huge part of it. Dubai is an incredibly popular shopping destination for people from all over. There are a lot of brands that are hard to get elsewhere, it's a big centre for jewellery/gold, and there are no taxes. On very high-end products, you can save a lot of money vs buying in, say, Paris (with its 20% VAT) on taxes alone.

I know that shopping is a big part of Dubai's traction to tourists. My question was not about that, it was whether this is what most Israeli tourists are looking for, which I still doubt.

Israeli tourists shop and shop big, if there are big shopping malls around, you will see Israeli tourists there.

yochai wrote:

Israeli tourists shop and shop big, if there are big shopping malls around, you will see Israeli tourists there.

Why, isn't there online shopping?

yeah there is and israelis are big in that too
but there is still something to be said for holding the item you want
or for clothing and shoes trying it on....
and you can bet your bottom dollar when covid is gone
some smart operators in UAE will offer weekend flights and hotels for shopping sprees of two days
at prices close to what a TLV ETM flight one way will be
kind of like what they used to do in the mall of america
and those flights will have israelis hanging off the wings and in the bathrooms.....

Israir applies for DXB flights.

https://www.reuters.com/article/israel- ... SL8N2G30FQ

AshFlops wrote:

Vio wrote:

I think not using a "bigger airplane" also may send a message that the Israelis "Don't consider themselves the best in town". Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but it shows modesty. The (economics) explanation probably makes more sense

"The Best in Town"? Please elaborate. What does that have to do with aircraft size?

When it comes to the sensitive relationship between Israel and other Arab States, every move can be interpreted in one way or another. Using a large aircraft like a 787 could be interpreted by some that Israel is showing off, trying to portray their wealth and power by bringing an oversized aircraft for this relatively short trip. Again it's all pure speculation and interpretation on my behalf. I think doing it with a 737 was the modest (and most likely fiscally responsible) thing to do.

Vio wrote:

AshFlops wrote:

Vio wrote:

I think not using a "bigger airplane" also may send a message that the Israelis "Don't consider themselves the best in town". Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but it shows modesty. The (economics) explanation probably makes more sense

"The Best in Town"? Please elaborate. What does that have to do with aircraft size?

When it comes to the sensitive relationship between Israel and other Arab States, every move can be interpreted in one way or another. Using a large aircraft like a 787 could be interpreted by some that Israel is showing off, trying to portray their wealth and power by bringing an oversized aircraft for this relatively short trip. Again it's all pure speculation and interpretation on my behalf. I think doing it with a 737 was the modest (and most likely fiscally responsible) thing to do.

The UAE delegation is scheduled to arrive in TLV on 9/22, I doubt they will arrive in a 737 or similar sized aircraft, and no one will care or interpret it one way or another.

Emirates and Etihad to start flying as soon a the end of the month with Israir joining mid October

Has the visa regime been suspended between the two countries? What's the status on that? Also who will airlines carry? Aren't there strict entry requirements for Israel?

Israir to start 3 weekly flights to DXB starting from 15OCT20.

In this time and age I would be more worried about COVID restrictions and potential lockdowns. I thought the UAE was quite strict about quarantines / access and Israel is now in its 2nd COVID wave. Starting flights in 1 month seems a bit optimistic with stuff like this:

https://www.timesofisrael.com/schools-b ... down-plan/

xwb777 wrote:

Israir to start 3 weekly flights to DXB starting from 15OCT20.

Do we know what aircraft and times they will operate?

Blerg wrote:

xwb777 wrote:

Israir to start 3 weekly flights to DXB starting from 15OCT20.

Do we know what aircraft and times they will operate?

No further details have been announced. I think an A320 will be used.

xwb777 wrote:

Blerg wrote:

xwb777 wrote:

Israir to start 3 weekly flights to DXB starting from 15OCT20.

Do we know what aircraft and times they will operate?

No further details have been announced. I think an A320 will be used.

Most definitely the A320. Their only other aircraft is the ATR which would need a tech stop halfway (Saudi Arabia).

Vio wrote:

AshFlops wrote:

Vio wrote:

I think not using a "bigger airplane" also may send a message that the Israelis "Don't consider themselves the best in town". Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but it shows modesty. The (economics) explanation probably makes more sense

"The Best in Town"? Please elaborate. What does that have to do with aircraft size?

When it comes to the sensitive relationship between Israel and other Arab States, every move can be interpreted in one way or another. Using a large aircraft like a 787 could be interpreted by some that Israel is showing off, trying to portray their wealth and power by bringing an oversized aircraft for this relatively short trip. Again it's all pure speculation and interpretation on my behalf. I think doing it with a 737 was the modest (and most likely fiscally responsible) thing to do.

I think you're reading too much into it

EK has received final approval for Ben Gurion Airport.
Source: Kan News
https://twitter.com/kann_news/status/13 ... wsrc%5Etfw

Makes complete sense with the normalization of relations between the UAE and Israel. TLV has to be one of the biggest cities within nonstop range of DXB that didn't have service on Emirates.

EK Catering will setup a division dedicated to the production of kosher foods not only for the TLV flights but for the UAE as well.

https://www.khaleejtimes.com/uae/dubai/ ... ity-in-uae

Great that did not take long. Should be plenty easy to fill the front and back of plane.

Good for them - nice to see a positive step. If you'd have said five years ago that EK won't fly to Doha but will fly to Tel Aviv, everyone would have laughed you off the website. But here we are.

For fellow Thomas Freedman readers, the world is flat!

This is great news. EK will have an opportunity to capture much of the market.

asuflyer wrote:

EK Catering will setup a division dedicated to the production of kosher foods not only for the TLV flights but for the UAE as well.

https://www.khaleejtimes.com/uae/dubai/ ... ity-in-uae

Now that makes sense, sell Kosher food from Israel.

Lightsaber

Israir A320 special decal.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

So, is there open skies between TLV and DXB/AUH with unlimited allowed flights or are the rights limited by frequencies or seats?

Coupled with the open Saudi airspace, once Covid is under control the traffic between Israel and South Asia will expand greatly. The EK flight will be filled up with people going to and from DXB, and lots and lots connecting to SIN and MNL. They will steal some market share from El Al, but the real loser here is TK. TK will lose a lot of their eastward connections. A lot of Israelis fly TK via IST to get east, but no more. TK will just be westward connections. EK will also stimulate demand in both directions, as it will be much easier to connect to Israel from South Asia and Oceania. No surprise on the expediency of this announcement.

Great to see. I commend EK for seeking the opportunity.

deltairlines wrote:

TLV has to be one of the biggest cities within nonstop range of DXB that didn't have service on Emirates.

Not quite, there are quite a few cities in China and a few more in India with populations much greater than TLV. Unfortunately EK was maxed out on their bilateral with both of these countries.

But exciting nonetheless! I suspect the route could go twice daily within a short period of time.

I expect EL AL gunna face tough times, with EK stealing pax going to HKG, SIN, Australia, India, and Thailand. I could see Pre covid EK having 3 flghts to TLV 1 A380 and 2 777s.

Airlinerdude wrote:

deltairlines wrote:

TLV has to be one of the biggest cities within nonstop range of DXB that didn't have service on Emirates.

Not quite, there are quite a few cities in China and a few more in India with populations much greater than TLV. Unfortunately EK was maxed out on their bilateral with both of these countries.

But exciting nonetheless! I suspect the route could go twice daily within a short period of time.

While not in absolute population terms, Tel Aviv would have been one of the largest travel markets that was unserved.

Pre-Covid there was plenty of demand from Israel to Thailand, Singapore, India etc, which are markets that Emirates will be very competitive in serving, plus this route opens up much easier connections between Israel and places such as Australia and New Zealand.

This route seems like a home run for Emirates, in a time when they desparately need it as much of their connection-dependent network is feeling the pinch from the global collapse in international travel and increased willingness to avoid unnecessary connections.

I suppose initially they will start with daily flights to TLV. Can anyone guess which bank they will operate it from? Maybe a morning departure from DXB?

LH658 wrote:

I expect EL AL gunna face tough times, with EK stealing pax going to HKG, SIN, Australia, India, and Thailand. I could see Pre covid EK having 3 flghts to TLV 1 A380 and 2 777s.

Not necessarily all bad news for LY. With Saudi Arabia expected to allow overflight rights to Israeli carriers to any destinations, LY can now become competitive with nonstop flights to Australia, India, Thailand and other destinations in South Asia.

To South Asia we’re talking about a two hour reduction in flight times. To Australia they’ll have a one hour reduction, plus elimination of most of the expected severe westbound weight restrictions that were anticipated on the TLV-MEL route. This also opens up SYD as a possibility, albeit with some weight restrictions westbound. Shortest route to SIN would require rights over Indonesia or Malaysia plus possible minor incursions into Malaysia on approach.

HKG is an interesting case. I don’t see flight time savings in the eastbound leg but westbound they could have a 1-2 hour savings. This would entail eastbound flights going over Turkey like today but westbound return flights to Israel going over Burma (a short detour to the south is needed so to avoid Bangladesh airspace) then India then over DXB then just north of Bahrain and across Saudi towards TLV. I am not sure if there are any other examples of such divergent flight paths on outbound/inbound legs in aviation elsewhere today.

Gulf Air has submitted application documents for route approval to Israel - and will fly to Israel. The company is expected to operate flights between Ben Gurion Airport and Manama, probably four times a week. This is the third airline from the GCC that is expected to operate flights to Israel, along with Emirates and Etihad.

Source: Kann News