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reltney
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Re: Potentially groundbreaking Celera 500L bizaircraft prototype unveiled

Thu Aug 27, 2020 5:41 pm

Here is how old this plane design is... this is from the 40s’

https://youtu.be/Qh7IpphDF3c

XB-42/43
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wetpantsmcgee
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Re: Potentially groundbreaking Celera 500L bizaircraft prototype unveiled

Thu Aug 27, 2020 5:43 pm

Cool. I always wanted to fly in a suppository.
 
tomcat
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Re: Potentially groundbreaking Celera 500L bizaircraft prototype unveiled

Thu Aug 27, 2020 6:50 pm

VSMUT wrote:
tomcat wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Are you serious about 500 units/month? Research Vern Raeburn at Eclipse, virtually identical level of craziness.


Well I've just made up this number but to me it's the whole point of a groundbreaking concept. Otherwise it's not a groundbreaking concept. But here is the hint of rationale that I have used to come up with 500 units/month.

If there would ever be a 6 pax aircraft that would be competitive with full-fare, 200 pax, commercial aircraft and knowing that in non-Covid times these 200 pax aircraft are produced at a rate greater than 100 units/month then 500 units/month for the 6 pax aircraft doesn't sound wrong. That's what you would get when fragmenting the market into tiny pieces.


What 200+ seat aircraft was produced at a rate of over 100 per month?


In 2018, the aggregated output of the 737 and A320 families was above 100 per month.
 
jetblueguy22
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Re: Potentially groundbreaking Celera 500L bizaircraft prototype unveiled

Thu Aug 27, 2020 7:18 pm

Someone call Yeager and tell him they put a prop and winglets on the X1. Ridley has got some beemans and they’re ready to drop test it.


Love the drive, but I don’t buy the cost to operate it. Hope they prove me wrong, but I doubt it.
Look at sweatpants guy. This is a 90 million dollar aircraft, not a Tallahassee strip club
 
zuckie13
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Re: Potentially groundbreaking Celera 500L bizaircraft prototype unveiled

Thu Aug 27, 2020 7:42 pm

I was trying to find the expected time between overhauls for that engine. With a piston it's usually in the 1500 hours range on average. I'm wondering how this will fair.
 
VSMUT
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Re: Potentially groundbreaking Celera 500L bizaircraft prototype unveiled

Thu Aug 27, 2020 8:51 pm

tomcat wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
tomcat wrote:

Well I've just made up this number but to me it's the whole point of a groundbreaking concept. Otherwise it's not a groundbreaking concept. But here is the hint of rationale that I have used to come up with 500 units/month.

If there would ever be a 6 pax aircraft that would be competitive with full-fare, 200 pax, commercial aircraft and knowing that in non-Covid times these 200 pax aircraft are produced at a rate greater than 100 units/month then 500 units/month for the 6 pax aircraft doesn't sound wrong. That's what you would get when fragmenting the market into tiny pieces.


What 200+ seat aircraft was produced at a rate of over 100 per month?


In 2018, the aggregated output of the 737 and A320 families was above 100 per month.


That's the combined output of 5 factories that have been winding up slowly over 3 decades!

Where will you even get the pilots from? 500 a month, with single pilot ops, that's the entire surplus of pilots made redundant by the coronavirus in Europe, in just a years production.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Potentially groundbreaking Celera 500L bizaircraft prototype unveiled

Thu Aug 27, 2020 8:55 pm

Again, the Eclipse was ground breaking, to be produced in vast quantities—did not happen and it won’t here.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Potentially groundbreaking Celera 500L bizjet prototype unveiled

Thu Aug 27, 2020 9:19 pm

c933103 wrote:
Is it propfan?
If this thing indeed succeed, would airport and air space availability become a bigger problem?

It has a V12 Diesel engine, so pistons driving a single prop.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Potentially groundbreaking Celera 500L bizaircraft prototype unveiled

Thu Aug 27, 2020 10:14 pm

Do we really want to refer to new aircraft as ground breaking?

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iamlucky13
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Re: Potentially groundbreaking Celera 500L bizjet prototype unveiled

Thu Aug 27, 2020 10:21 pm

VSMUT wrote:
iamlucky13 wrote:
Looking at those windows, I'm going to assume the pilot likely has a forward looking camera to assist with landing

It doesn't sound to me like they're targeting the stereotypical business jet operator, who is concern about ramp appeal, but air taxi operators. That would presumably reduce the liability of such an ungainly design.


On the other hand, the single engine piston design means it will be unable to do exactly that job under EASA rules. Regulations were recently changed to permit single-engine turbine aircraft in commercial service, but pistons still aren't allowed.


I wonder if that's part of the reason for the interesting way they describe the RED A03 engine:
"Liquid cooled V12, twin 6-cyclinder bank, capable of independent operation with mutually independent critical engine sub-systems for each bank"

It sounds to me like they're saying it can continue operation if one bank fails. It does not seem that could be accepted under a simple interpretation of a twin engine requirement. However, if they're serious about the air taxi market, they will have already started a discussion with the EASA to determine criteria under which it might be possible to receive an exemption if they can demonstrate a low enough risk of a failure of one bank preventing operation of the other bank.

tomcat wrote:
They talk about a cruise speed of 460mph. This is indeed equivalent to the cruise speed of the smallest businessjets.


I noticed they stated this specifically as "high speed cruise." I suspect the fuel consumption and range numbers they are stating are based on a lower speed.

tomcat wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Are you serious about 500 units/month? Research Vern Raeburn at Eclipse, virtually identical level of craziness.


Well I've just made up this number but to me it's the whole point of a groundbreaking concept. Otherwise it's not a groundbreaking concept. But here is the hint of rationale that I have used to come up with 500 units/month.

If there would ever be a 6 pax aircraft that would be competitive with full-fare, 200 pax, commercial aircraft and knowing that in non-Covid times these 200 pax aircraft are produced at a rate greater than 100 units/month then 500 units/month for the 6 pax aircraft doesn't sound wrong. That's what you would get when fragmenting the market into tiny pieces.


You don't need 500/month to be groundbreaking. If it enables a significantly larger market than current exists for air taxi services, it's ground-breaking. Currently, high demand in aircraft of similar cabin size means 6-7 per month, like the Pilatus PC-12, for example

If they achieve $328 per hour operating costs, I suspect they would prove to be ground-breaking. I have a lot of skepticism that is possible, but even an intermediate level of savings might be enough to make the project successful.
 
2175301
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Re: Potentially groundbreaking Celera 500L bizaircraft prototype unveiled

Thu Aug 27, 2020 10:26 pm

Revelation wrote:
Do we really want to refer to new aircraft as ground breaking?

Asking for a friend...


Depends on how hard it hits the ground and where.

I have no doubt that this could easily be a ground breaking aircraft.

Not that I'd want to be in it when that happened, nor do I wish anyone else to be in it either during such an event. People above talked about pilot-less operation in the future. Let its testing for that be when it becomes a groundbreaking aircraft, and in a remote location with no one nearby.

Have a great day,
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Potentially groundbreaking Celera 500L bizaircraft prototype unveiled

Fri Aug 28, 2020 1:51 am

At the bottom of this link is a landing video. Is it perspective, or is the lower vertical stabalizer close to the ground?
https://www.avweb.com/aviation-news/bus ... lera-500l/

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c933103
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Re: Potentially groundbreaking Celera 500L bizaircraft prototype unveiled

Fri Aug 28, 2020 1:41 pm

Revelation wrote:
Do we really want to refer to new aircraft as ground breaking?

Asking for a friend...

The supposedly groundbreaking part is private air fare at same cost as commercial fare
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Revelation
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Re: Potentially groundbreaking Celera 500L bizaircraft prototype unveiled

Fri Aug 28, 2020 2:21 pm

c933103 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Do we really want to refer to new aircraft as ground breaking?

Asking for a friend...

The supposedly groundbreaking part is private air fare at same cost as commercial fare

True, but usually it is a problem when an aircraft breaks the ground.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
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reltney
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Re: Potentially groundbreaking Celera 500L bizaircraft prototype unveiled

Fri Aug 28, 2020 2:24 pm

Hardly ground breaking, but it does sound better than “dusted off 1940 design”. The more I read about the Douglas B-42/B-43, it was very successful but not quite what the military wanted plus the engine reliability issues of the day.

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rampbro
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Re: Potentially groundbreaking Celera 500L bizaircraft prototype unveiled

Fri Aug 28, 2020 5:19 pm

I agree ramp appeal is a determining factor for bizjets, but no aesthetic is a monolith. Plenty of billionaires driving around here in Telsas.
 
VSMUT
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Re: Potentially groundbreaking Celera 500L bizaircraft prototype unveiled

Fri Aug 28, 2020 5:57 pm

c933103 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Do we really want to refer to new aircraft as ground breaking?

Asking for a friend...

The supposedly groundbreaking part is private air fare at same cost as commercial fare


"Same". I'd bet that the 328 USD figure is for the fuel and oil consumption alone. You still have to figure in handling, maintenance, crew, certification and registration and insurance.

It will still be cheap compared to a traditional business jet, but nowhere near an airline ticket. I flew to Rotterdam in a Piper this summer. I fly a private jet from time to time. Trust me, handling fees can be seriously expensive, easily enough to cover a couple of business class fares.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Potentially groundbreaking aircraft prototype unveiled

Fri Aug 28, 2020 10:03 pm

The looks are growing on me.

GAdude wrote:
Bullseye on the ramp appeal. Would not want to be the pilot or the passenger on that whale on wheels. And look where Piaggio is now (bankrupt). Whale design just doesn't work for the masses. I'll stick with my trusty 402 thank you and will wait for electric planes (lurking just around the corner).


"The masses" will care if the price is right, and that's the main claim they're making. It might also become very problematic to be seen using a thirsty jet if there are more alternatives like this.

And finally, they themselves claim the airframe is ideal for electric propulsion, since no kWh of electricity can be wasted with an inefficient design if you want to go anywhere with it.

Also, the speed claimed puts to shame all single pistons I can think of, all twin pistons too, all turboprops for that matter, the couple of single jets...

Carbon footprint is very important, that's why I don't believe in supersonic bizjets. Even if they're possible and enough people are ready to pay for them, they will be extremely unpopular, not just because of the noise, but because of the CO2. Most people don't realize how much fuel a large bizjet already burns or there would be outrage already, calls to boycott celebrities using them, etc. It will come, give it a few years.

So if this thing can burn less fuel than a large SUV, that has a lot of appeal.

lightsaber wrote:
At the bottom of this link is a landing video. Is it perspective, or is the lower vertical stabalizer close to the ground?
https://www.avweb.com/aviation-news/bus ... lera-500l/

Lightsaber


I think it has a wheel at the bottom just in case.
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FiscAutTecGarte
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Re: Potentially groundbreaking aircraft prototype unveiled

Fri Aug 28, 2020 10:56 pm

LH707330 wrote:
The Piaggio Avanti was an aerodynamic masterpiece, but it made a weird noise and was widely regarded as ugly.


I think the P180 is one of the most beautiful planes, but I read it's annoying becuase of it's noise. This Celera 500L has a look that kind of grows on you.... if that fuel efficiency is really achievable... wow.

A modern day V12 diesel piston aviation engine. interesting.
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sincx
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Re: Potentially groundbreaking Celera 500L bizaircraft prototype unveiled

Sat Aug 29, 2020 5:36 am

At least this one already has a flying prototype, unlike the supersonic business jets that get announced every year or two.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Potentially groundbreaking Celera 500L bizaircraft prototype unveiled

Sat Aug 29, 2020 5:54 am

sincx wrote:
At least this one already has a flying prototype, unlike the supersonic business jets that get announced every year or two.

This quickly goes off topic. But yes, this aircraft flies. I only disagree with the low stated cost. Notice I haven't claimed the speed nor range is impossible. However, I will question the payload at range... :spin:

It takes far longer to certify a supersonic aircraft than a single engine propeller aircraft. Longer than a sub-sonic aircraft as one has to do a full subsonic flight test campaign and then you have to do the supersonic test campaign which is much more complex than a subsonic aircraft. The Concorde had a very abridged supersonic flight test envelope that must be expanded upon for a new aircraft (including adding expensive noise testing that the Concorde had a waiver to avoid).

I think this celera 500L has a good chance of getting to market. The question is how long before the company goes bankrupt and maybe is sold a la Eclipse or is stuck in purgatory a la Piaggio. Aviation bankrupts far more than it enriches.

Lightsaber
Winter is coming.
 
Noshow
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Re: Potentially groundbreaking Celera 500L bizaircraft prototype unveiled

Sat Aug 29, 2020 11:21 am

Has anybody heard it flying? Is it super strange-noisy like the Avanti?
 
Armadillo1
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Re: Potentially groundbreaking Celera 500L bizaircraft prototype unveiled

Sat Aug 29, 2020 5:34 pm

they published only small silent video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3r0FklxfL4

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