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Potentially groundbreaking Celera 500L bizaircraft prototype unveiled

Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2020 1:39 am
by alberchico
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/3 ... eaks-cover

I like this concept, but mating a new airframe with a new engine is very high risk to me. This is also the worst possible time to launch a capital intensive project like this.

Re: Potentially groundbreaking aircraft prototype unveiled

Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2020 2:32 am
by vatveng
They didn't just launch this project. It was officially unveiled this week but the prototype's been under construction since at least 2017 according to the article.

And going public with it now is likely a calculated attempt to lure investors with the idea that families might consider private charter service during a pandemic.

“In many cases, individuals and families will be able to charter the Celera 500L at prices comparable to commercial airfares, but with the added convenience of private aviation. We believe when the price of private air travel is competitive with commercial air travel, an enormous market opportunity will result."


They didn't specifically mention COVID-19, and certainly the plane's not ready for prime time yet. But now is the perfect time to put the idea of it being (theoretically) possible for middle-class families to charter a private plane into people's minds.

Re: Potentially groundbreaking aircraft prototype unveiled

Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2020 2:58 am
by Varsity1
Reminds me of the Learfan 2100

Re: Potentially groundbreaking aircraft prototype unveiled

Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2020 3:10 am
by IADFCO
mumble mumble... I wonder how much turbulence the pusher prop sees behind that big fuselage (laminar flow and all).

Re: Potentially groundbreaking aircraft prototype unveiled

Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2020 3:34 am
by GalaxyFlyer
Yup, a Learfan. Somewhere in my library I have genuine Learfan brochure.

Re: Potentially groundbreaking aircraft prototype unveiled

Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2020 4:03 am
by LH707330
The people who have money to buy these also care about something called "ramp appeal." I wonder how many people think this one fits that bill. The Piaggio Avanti was an aerodynamic masterpiece, but it made a weird noise and was widely regarded as ugly.

Re: Potentially groundbreaking aircraft prototype unveiled

Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2020 4:25 am
by jreeves96
Skimmed the article, not amused. Should we start placing bets? I say less than 5 are built and it's a failure.

Re: Potentially groundbreaking aircraft prototype unveiled

Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2020 4:34 am
by GAdude
Bullseye on the ramp appeal. Would not want to be the pilot or the passenger on that whale on wheels. And look where Piaggio is now (bankrupt). Whale design just doesn't work for the masses. I'll stick with my trusty 402 thank you and will wait for electric planes (lurking just around the corner).

Re: Potentially groundbreaking Celera 500L bizjet prototype unveiled

Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2020 4:45 am
by VCVSpotter
Saw this doing engine run ups at VCV around 2-3 years ago, nice to see that it's finally official. I think that it has the potential to be something (maybe not 'revolutionary,' the press release does seem a bit pompous), but if it can take advantage of the market as some people upthread mentioned....and if it can deliver on its claims, then I can see something possibly sparking. Until then, it's just ramp/eye candy.

Re: Potentially groundbreaking Celera 500L bizjet prototype unveiled

Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2020 5:30 am
by Max Q
Looks like visibility may be an issue


Maybe why the test pilot doesn’t seem able to find the centerline..

Re: Potentially groundbreaking Celera 500L bizjet prototype unveiled

Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2020 5:46 am
by Armadillo1
Yes, visibility looks terrible

about Lear Fan 2100 - why they didnt made co-axial props one for each engine?

Re: Potentially groundbreaking Celera 500L bizjet prototype unveiled

Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2020 6:08 am
by ADent
Must be a hell of a flap system to get the stall speed to 61 knots.

61 knots is the legal max for single engine planes - though PC12 got an exception to 67 knots due to seats with enhanced crash survive-ability.

Re: Potentially groundbreaking Celera 500L bizjet prototype unveiled

Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2020 6:58 am
by Armadillo1

Re: Potentially groundbreaking Celera 500L bizjet prototype unveiled

Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2020 7:09 am
by iamlucky13
Looking at those windows, I'm going to assume the pilot likely has a forward looking camera to assist with landing

It doesn't sound to me like they're targeting the stereotypical business jet operator, who is concern about ramp appeal, but air taxi operators. That would presumably reduce the liability of such an ungainly design.

4500 nm is a surprisingly long range for an aircraft of this size. I'd have guess it would be optimized for short to medium range operation.

But then again, they go and say silly things like "Up to 8 times lower fuel consumption."

Re: Potentially groundbreaking Celera 500L bizjet prototype unveiled

Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2020 7:19 am
by keesje
Because air from the wing / tail hits the fan, those designs tend to be very loud.

https://youtu.be/53yRcaqhFyc

compared to a more conventional, front props

https://youtu.be/_BKS6XczrnE?t=27

That won't help.

Re: Potentially groundbreaking Celera 500L bizjet prototype unveiled

Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2020 7:26 am
by ADent
Armadillo1 wrote:


I saw the patents - wonder what will actually get installed in the wing. At least they are planning on double slotted flaps. The 61 knot limit has bothered more than one design.

Wonder how much fuel the wings will hold - they look small and the flaps look big, but it is hard to tell the scale of everything with the limited pics and drawings.


keesje wrote:
Because air from the wing / tail hits the fan, those designs tend to be very loud.

They tend to have a unique buzz. I can tell when a pusher (a Piaggio or long ago a Starship) fly overhead.

Re: Potentially groundbreaking Celera 500L bizjet prototype unveiled

Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2020 7:34 am
by Armadillo1
with engine at tail they can have fuel there. thats lead to another question about balance

Re: Potentially groundbreaking Celera 500L bizjet prototype unveiled

Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2020 9:02 am
by Armadillo1
ADent wrote:
At least they are planning on double slotted flaps.

for me it looks like flexible surface covers the slot between flaps

Re: Potentially groundbreaking Celera 500L bizjet prototype unveiled

Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2020 10:04 am
by VSMUT
iamlucky13 wrote:
Looking at those windows, I'm going to assume the pilot likely has a forward looking camera to assist with landing

It doesn't sound to me like they're targeting the stereotypical business jet operator, who is concern about ramp appeal, but air taxi operators. That would presumably reduce the liability of such an ungainly design.


On the other hand, the single engine piston design means it will be unable to do exactly that job under EASA rules. Regulations were recently changed to permit single-engine turbine aircraft in commercial service, but pistons still aren't allowed.

Re: Potentially groundbreaking Celera 500L bizjet prototype unveiled

Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2020 10:07 am
by Nicoeddf
Interesting, how in an enthusiasts forum 90% of the time is used to discredit rather than welcome new ventures. Be it large jet or small prop.

I like the cute little thing. Possible commercial success or not is irrelevant for me. Not my money.

Re: Potentially groundbreaking Celera 500L bizjet prototype unveiled

Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2020 10:14 am
by VSMUT
https://www.ottoaviation.com/opportunities

The manufacturer interestingly notes a couple of alternative uses for the type:

Cargo: can carry size D containers

Drone: A bit like the Piaggio Hammerhead

I wonder how it's cargo capacity compares with a Cessna Caravan. A new single-pilot freighter in the making?

Re: Potentially groundbreaking Celera 500L bizjet prototype unveiled

Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2020 10:42 am
by c933103
Is it propfan?
If this thing indeed succeed, would airport and air space availability become a bigger problem?

Re: Potentially groundbreaking Celera 500L bizjet prototype unveiled

Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2020 11:18 am
by Raptormodeller
Pretending to be a west german F104 isn't a good idea. Hope it doesn't actually break the ground.

Cool plane though.

Re: Potentially groundbreaking Celera 500L bizjet prototype unveiled

Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2020 11:39 am
by peterinlisbon
If it can really get that kind of fuel economy that's pretty amazing and I could see it being very profitable for air taxi companies. I don't like the pinhole windows, though.

Re: Potentially groundbreaking aircraft prototype unveiled

Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2020 12:22 pm
by FlyingElvii
jreeves96 wrote:
Skimmed the article, not amused. Should we start placing bets? I say less than 5 are built and it's a failure.

Another Adamjet?

Re: Potentially groundbreaking Celera 500L bizjet prototype unveiled

Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2020 12:56 pm
by GalaxyFlyer
Armadillo1 wrote:
Yes, visibility looks terrible

about Lear Fan 2100 - why they didnt made co-axial props one for each engine?


Not sure what you mean by co-axial , but the Learfan used a gearbox to join the output of the two PT-6s with a fail-tolerant design in the transmission. Idea being to simplify aero consideration—no yaw on engine failure, no Vmca problems, smaller fin.

Re: Potentially groundbreaking Celera 500L bizjet prototype unveiled

Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2020 12:58 pm
by GalaxyFlyer
c933103 wrote:
Is it propfan?
If this thing indeed succeed, would airport and air space availability become a bigger problem?


No, it’s not that big. I’d say the website’s claims to be either a daydream or they’ve repealed physics. 550hp isn’t much to do all that—it’s an all-aluminum diesel.

Re: Potentially groundbreaking Celera 500L bizjet prototype unveiled

Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2020 1:10 pm
by c933103
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
c933103 wrote:
Is it propfan?
If this thing indeed succeed, would airport and air space availability become a bigger problem?


No, it’s not that big. I’d say the website’s claims to be either a daydream or they’ve repealed physics. 550hp isn’t much to do all that—it’s an all-aluminum diesel.

Are you quoting an incorrect post or misreading what I have wrote?

Re: Potentially groundbreaking Celera 500L bizjet prototype unveiled

Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2020 1:17 pm
by GalaxyFlyer
Well, you wrote it’s size might be a problem—it won’t be, either physically at airports or in the ATC environment

Re: Potentially groundbreaking Celera 500L bizjet prototype unveiled

Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2020 1:30 pm
by Noshow
High flying, long endurance. Would make for some excellent drone. Unobstructed forward view. Maybe something optional manned?

Re: Potentially groundbreaking Celera 500L bizjet prototype unveiled

Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2020 1:32 pm
by tomcat
I like the idea: much reduced drag combined with a highly efficient engine (especially in comparison with the tiny turbofans equipping the small bizjets). The resulting fuel economy can only be substantial.

In terms of operating costs, until this plane will be certified for pilotless operations, there will still be the need to pay a pilot though. I'm not sure how this can be competitive against commercial flights.

Re: Potentially groundbreaking Celera 500L bizjet prototype unveiled

Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2020 1:35 pm
by GalaxyFlyer
tomcat wrote:
I like the idea: much reduced drag combined with a highly efficient engine (especially in comparison with the tiny turbofans equipping the small bizjets). The resulting fuel economy can only be substantial.

In terms of operating costs, until this plane will be certified for pilotless operations, there will still be the need to pay a pilot though. I'm not sure how this can be competitive against commercial flights.


One thing private planes are NOT is competitive against flights.

Re: Potentially groundbreaking Celera 500L bizaircraft prototype unveiled

Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2020 1:38 pm
by lightsaber
I changed the title as a V-12 diesel pushing a propeller, not a bizjet. I'm a fan of small propeller aircraft.

My opinion will depend on the purchase price. The cost per flight hour seems low for a V-12 powered aircraft.

Lightsaber

Re: Potentially groundbreaking Celera 500L bizjet prototype unveiled

Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2020 1:38 pm
by tomcat
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
tomcat wrote:
I like the idea: much reduced drag combined with a highly efficient engine (especially in comparison with the tiny turbofans equipping the small bizjets). The resulting fuel economy can only be substantial.

In terms of operating costs, until this plane will be certified for pilotless operations, there will still be the need to pay a pilot though. I'm not sure how this can be competitive against commercial flights.


One thing private planes are NOT is competitive against flights.


This is the claim of Otto Aviation though:
In many cases, individuals and families will be able to charter the Celera 500L at prices comparable to commercial airfares, but with the added convenience of private aviation.

(on their website, they refer to premium commercial flights though)

Re: Potentially groundbreaking Celera 500L bizaircraft prototype unveiled

Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2020 1:44 pm
by Sokes
"Speeds comparable to commercial aviation":
A bit more precise would be nice.

"Jet like speeds":
I doubt that.

That doesn't mean it can't be a great plane. I just distrust this article.

Re: Potentially groundbreaking Celera 500L bizaircraft prototype unveiled

Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2020 1:46 pm
by tomcat
lightsaber wrote:
I changed the title as a V-12 diesel pushing a propeller, not a bizjet. I'm a fan of small propeller aircraft.

My opinion will depend on the purchase price. The cost per flight hour seems low for a V-12 powered aircraft.

Lightsaber


If this engine is as reliable and efficient as any (German) car diesel engine, I don't see what would make it costly to operate.

As for the purchase price, a lot will depend on the production rate: if they end up pumping out 500 aircraft a month, it could be very cheap to produce.

Re: Potentially groundbreaking Celera 500L bizaircraft prototype unveiled

Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2020 1:51 pm
by tomcat
Sokes wrote:
"Speeds comparable to commercial aviation":
A bit more precise would be nice.

"Jet like speeds":
I doubt that.


They talk about a cruise speed of 460mph. This is indeed equivalent to the cruise speed of the smallest businessjets.

Re: Potentially groundbreaking Celera 500L bizaircraft prototype unveiled

Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2020 1:56 pm
by Noshow
And you go point to point not commercial airport to commercial airport.

Re: Potentially groundbreaking Celera 500L bizaircraft prototype unveiled

Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2020 2:05 pm
by lightsaber
tomcat wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
I changed the title as a V-12 diesel pushing a propeller, not a bizjet. I'm a fan of small propeller aircraft.

My opinion will depend on the purchase price. The cost per flight hour seems low for a V-12 powered aircraft.

Lightsaber


If this engine is as reliable and efficient as any (German) car diesel engine, I don't see what would make it costly to operate.

As for the purchase price, a lot will depend on the production rate: if they end up pumping out 500 aircraft a month, it could be very cheap to produce.

I'd love to drive a V-12 diesel car. I drive a V-6 because the economics are more appropriate. At some point, part count drives pricing.

Since the grand total of all general aviation Aircraft shipped in 2019 was 1771, I think we need to discuss smaller economics of scale. In particular until a logistics network is setup.
Link on aircraft delivered:
https://gama.aero/facts-and-statistics/ ... y-outlook/

The logistics network will be the challenge. My local airport (Zamperini field) has phenomenal Cessna and Lycoming services and, of course, Robinson helicopters. The hardest part of aircraft is field support. That support makes it a challenge for new brands.

I'm not saying this isn't a nice concept. I just would estimate much higher costs to buy, fuel, and maintain a unique V-12 aircraft.

Lightsaber

Re: Potentially groundbreaking Celera 500L bizaircraft prototype unveiled

Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2020 2:17 pm
by GalaxyFlyer
Anyone remember the Eclipse, similar claims. I not only flew bizjets, I was involved in selling them. Every salesman claims, if you fill the seats, it’s cost is close to air carrier first class. Well, they would say that.

Re: Potentially groundbreaking Celera 500L bizaircraft prototype unveiled

Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2020 3:22 pm
by MohawkWeekend
Kinda reminds me of a HE-111 that stayed at the dinner table too long

Re: Potentially groundbreaking Celera 500L bizaircraft prototype unveiled

Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2020 3:49 pm
by reltney
alberchico wrote:
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/36016/the-potentially-revolutionary-celera-500l-officially-breaks-cover

I like this concept, but mating a new airframe with a new engine is very high risk to me. This is also the worst possible time to launch a capital intensive project like this.



Hardly new. Introduced in the 40s’ Look at the Douglas B-42..prop and jet version. Exact configuration . Very efficient. The bug eye cockpit wasn’t the best. It was a highly successful concept airplane and it set some records. New concept? No. Just dusted off a late 49s design.

Cheers

Re: Potentially groundbreaking Celera 500L bizaircraft prototype unveiled

Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2020 4:05 pm
by tomcat
lightsaber wrote:
tomcat wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
I changed the title as a V-12 diesel pushing a propeller, not a bizjet. I'm a fan of small propeller aircraft.

My opinion will depend on the purchase price. The cost per flight hour seems low for a V-12 powered aircraft.

Lightsaber


If this engine is as reliable and efficient as any (German) car diesel engine, I don't see what would make it costly to operate.

As for the purchase price, a lot will depend on the production rate: if they end up pumping out 500 aircraft a month, it could be very cheap to produce.

I'd love to drive a V-12 diesel car. I drive a V-6 because the economics are more appropriate. At some point, part count drives pricing.

Since the grand total of all general aviation Aircraft shipped in 2019 was 1771, I think we need to discuss smaller economics of scale. In particular until a logistics network is setup.
Link on aircraft delivered:
https://gama.aero/facts-and-statistics/ ... y-outlook/

The logistics network will be the challenge. My local airport (Zamperini field) has phenomenal Cessna and Lycoming services and, of course, Robinson helicopters. The hardest part of aircraft is field support. That support makes it a challenge for new brands.

I'm not saying this isn't a nice concept. I just would estimate much higher costs to buy, fuel, and maintain a unique V-12 aircraft.

Lightsaber


Indeed, you are right.

All I'm trying to point out is that if this concept achieves its promises in terms of operating costs then it would be a complete let down to not plan it with a high production rate right from the beginning and with the associated logistics network. Maybe that they should seek the support of a global automotive company which already has a global reach in terms of logistics and customer support.

If they would ever achieve an unprecedented output level then the biggest challenge could be to find pilots to operate all these planes. This is where a pilotless option would be handy.

Re: Potentially groundbreaking Celera 500L bizaircraft prototype unveiled

Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2020 4:08 pm
by GalaxyFlyer
Are you serious about 500 units/month? Research Vern Raeburn at Eclipse, virtually identical level of craziness.

Re: Potentially groundbreaking Celera 500L bizaircraft prototype unveiled

Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2020 4:21 pm
by GlobalAirways
"Potentially" I hope it has a parachute.

Re: Potentially groundbreaking Celera 500L bizaircraft prototype unveiled

Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2020 4:22 pm
by tomcat
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Are you serious about 500 units/month? Research Vern Raeburn at Eclipse, virtually identical level of craziness.


Well I've just made up this number but to me it's the whole point of a groundbreaking concept. Otherwise it's not a groundbreaking concept. But here is the hint of rationale that I have used to come up with 500 units/month.

If there would ever be a 6 pax aircraft that would be competitive with full-fare, 200 pax, commercial aircraft and knowing that in non-Covid times these 200 pax aircraft are produced at a rate greater than 100 units/month then 500 units/month for the 6 pax aircraft doesn't sound wrong. That's what you would get when fragmenting the market into tiny pieces.

Re: Potentially groundbreaking Celera 500L bizaircraft prototype unveiled

Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2020 4:47 pm
by lightsaber
tomcat wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
tomcat wrote:

If this engine is as reliable and efficient as any (German) car diesel engine, I don't see what would make it costly to operate.

As for the purchase price, a lot will depend on the production rate: if they end up pumping out 500 aircraft a month, it could be very cheap to produce.

I'd love to drive a V-12 diesel car. I drive a V-6 because the economics are more appropriate. At some point, part count drives pricing.

Since the grand total of all general aviation Aircraft shipped in 2019 was 1771, I think we need to discuss smaller economics of scale. In particular until a logistics network is setup.
Link on aircraft delivered:
https://gama.aero/facts-and-statistics/ ... y-outlook/

The logistics network will be the challenge. My local airport (Zamperini field) has phenomenal Cessna and Lycoming services and, of course, Robinson helicopters. The hardest part of aircraft is field support. That support makes it a challenge for new brands.

I'm not saying this isn't a nice concept. I just would estimate much higher costs to buy, fuel, and maintain a unique V-12 aircraft.

Lightsaber


Indeed, you are right.

All I'm trying to point out is that if this concept achieves its promises in terms of operating costs then it would be a complete let down to not plan it with a high production rate right from the beginning and with the associated logistics network. Maybe that they should seek the support of a global automotive company which already has a global reach in terms of logistics and customer support.

If they would ever achieve an unprecedented output level then the biggest challenge could be to find pilots to operate all these planes. This is where a pilotless option would be handy.

To plan it from the get go for unprecedented factory output and support would cost about $2 billion dollars.

As to pilotless, the department of defense is trying to get permission to fly sophisticated UAS without the currently required escort. Untill the FAA lays down the criteria, it cannot be done. We have to fly a Kingair or a business jet to escort a UAS in commercial airspace currently.

People want this. They just want it cheaper than currently possible. Heck, I've been promised flying cars my entire life!

First, certify the aircraft. Then sell a few. Then after the first PiPs get the production going and do so before Cessna, Cirius, or any other established company catches up.

This is like Tesla. Great, but expensive cars. My cousin bought one for $70k when it only cost Tesla $110k. Now I see the parking lot filling up with Nissan Leafs and GM Bolts. Not that I don't want one... But if those costs are real, that decimates every mid range and higher propeller Aircraft on the market.

I have coworkers who commute by air. There are reasons they bought economical 4 or 6 cylinder aircraft, they cost less to maintain and fly.

I simply cannot arrive at costs as low as in the link, even assuming owner pilot.

Fun. I see a niche, but this is the Adam 500 again. They will discover that achieving grandiose production volumes requires a much more mature market. You idea of an auto company has merit, but they wouldn't invest until 500+ are already in service.

Lightsaber

Re: Potentially groundbreaking Celera 500L bizaircraft prototype unveiled

Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2020 4:54 pm
by VSMUT
tomcat wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Are you serious about 500 units/month? Research Vern Raeburn at Eclipse, virtually identical level of craziness.


Well I've just made up this number but to me it's the whole point of a groundbreaking concept. Otherwise it's not a groundbreaking concept. But here is the hint of rationale that I have used to come up with 500 units/month.

If there would ever be a 6 pax aircraft that would be competitive with full-fare, 200 pax, commercial aircraft and knowing that in non-Covid times these 200 pax aircraft are produced at a rate greater than 100 units/month then 500 units/month for the 6 pax aircraft doesn't sound wrong. That's what you would get when fragmenting the market into tiny pieces.


What 200+ seat aircraft was produced at a rate of over 100 per month?

Re: Potentially groundbreaking Celera 500L bizaircraft prototype unveiled

Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2020 5:25 pm
by Noshow
The Celera's newly designed V12-engine is already certified by EASA, FAA and Russia. I like this project. Not the average stuff but new ideas.

Re: Potentially groundbreaking Celera 500L bizaircraft prototype unveiled

Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2020 5:38 pm
by 744SPX
I hope it works as advertised, although it is worth noting that the original specs mentioned a 510 mph cruise speed and 65,000 ft cruising altitude, which I found highly unlikely given the available engine power and very low wing area.
460mph and 50,000(?) ft sounds more doable