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bourbon
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Re: UA outsouring some corporate positions to India

Wed Sep 02, 2020 5:18 am

Judge1310 wrote:
Whew boy!! I don’t even know where to start with all this ignorance, misguided protectionism, and, yes I’ll call it out, perceived racism on this topic by some posters.

Some of you are so pressed about it, but what does it have to do with YOU? What makes positions in India any different from those in London or Amsterdam?

Racism you say? What race?
 
avier
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Re: UA outsouring some corporate positions to India

Wed Sep 02, 2020 6:09 am

COSPN wrote:
Hi UA900

So United employees in India get free rides home ? Wow
Very interesting how about free food ?

Maybe if US based UA employees settled for a fifth of their current pay (i.e to be paid as much as their Indian counterparts), even they might get free rides home for over-nights. And maybe even free food. :duck:
 
COSPN
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Re: UA outsouring some corporate positions to India

Wed Sep 02, 2020 12:15 pm

You are missing the point. It’s not about free rides ,food or security guards that vet taxis.

It’s about lack of diversity in India

In Chicago or Houston it’s easy to find out what the big holidays in Mexico , Manila or Salt Lake City
How long does it take to get across the bridge from PIE to TPA. How do I get from OAK to SFO on BART.

Oh . I need to list some jobs we had some people quit recently . Anyone know the postal code for India? Must be IN...sure. Must be ...So then the jobs show up as Indiana.
..If they had used the correct job listing location codes those jobs would never have hit anyone’s Indeed searches

I know there must be many smart people there but Probably need to wait a few months to hire people a freeze is a freeze .
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: UA outsouring some corporate positions to India

Wed Sep 02, 2020 1:08 pm

COSPN wrote:
Hi UA900

So United employees in India get free rides home ? Wow
Very interesting how about free food ?


I wouldn't call it a free ride. It is sort of a employee perk knowing it is not safe for women to travel at odd hours. You don't want morning news is about your employee in a ditch. Believe me your logo will be all over the news. It is not the west to send a cease & desist notice and media will not say employer's name.

I don't know now, but offices in India used to have office boys, serving tea and snacks to employees. They take too many tea breaks.

Enough with cultural issues, do United really need network planners burning midnight oil? It is not that an airline will announce new routes every morning.
All posts are just opinions.
 
COSPN
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Re: UA outsouring some corporate positions to India

Wed Sep 02, 2020 1:35 pm

You need diversity to make the best decisions. Not just one ethnic racial or religious group..That is the American way. Diversity and Inclusion. Hire the best person for the job. Very simple.

Snack boys do sound good keeps people working longer...are the snacks free . ?
 
avier
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Re: UA outsouring some corporate positions to India

Wed Sep 02, 2020 1:59 pm

One needs brains to make the best decisions.
And if non-diversity was such an issue, I wonder why so many foreign companies would outsource to a country with lack of racial diversity.
Btw, even in the US , those said racial groups are preferred for certain skilled jobs. Coincidence eh!?
 
VTORD
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Re: UA outsouring some corporate positions to India

Wed Sep 02, 2020 2:51 pm

COSPN wrote:
You need diversity to make the best decisions. Not just one ethnic racial or religious group..That is the American way. Diversity and Inclusion. Hire the best person for the job. Very simple.

You need diversity of thought to make the best decisions. 5 idiots belonging to 5 different races/ethnicities/religions will still make a bad call. And who defines "diversity"? Are you suggesting India is not a diverse place based on just race and ethnicity!? Do you know how many linguistic and sub-linguistic cultures exist within India? Let's not get into this trope about diversity and inclusion. The argument has no merit in this context.
 
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eta unknown
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Re: UA outsouring some corporate positions to India

Wed Sep 02, 2020 5:30 pm

I guess we can blame all this on Swissair- they transferred their Accounts Dept. to Bombay in the 80''s.
 
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eta unknown
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Re: UA outsouring some corporate positions to India

Wed Sep 02, 2020 5:33 pm

COSPN wrote:
Hi UA900

So United employees in India get free rides home ? Wow
Very interesting how about free food ?

I have seen company agreements in Australia that state employees will be reimbursed taxi fare home if staff are required to work until 11pm or later- these arrangements are perfectly normal and account for unreliable public transport late at night.
 
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eta unknown
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Re: UA outsouring some corporate positions to India

Wed Sep 02, 2020 5:40 pm

malaysia wrote:
While in Australia, I saw a job advertisement for United for some management job in California and was for an E-3 Visa, the way it was written sounded so dedicated that they needed or wanted specifically to set up an E-3 Visa and hire an Australian over an American for this corporate job in the US.


I'm going to guess you saw a fake job advert. Probably UA wanted to transfer an internal candidate and the decision was already made who would get the job, but UA ran into visa problems or there was some internal dispute so they had to pretend to open the job to everyone by posting the ad. To be honest, I saw a lot of this in Australia- the advertised jobs are already filled.
 
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ua900
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Re: UA outsouring some corporate positions to India

Wed Sep 02, 2020 5:52 pm

COSPN wrote:
Hi UA900

So United employees in India get free rides home ? Wow
Very interesting how about free food ?


Hi, not just United and not just India. Most companies will offer comparable arrangements there, mostly for competitive reasons and also liability / the potential of bad PR. Think about how virtually every foreign carrier had to start providing security escorts for airline crews at CCS for example when things turned sour.

A number of countries don't feature a safe commute, especially for female employees. I know that we provided these for our Indian employees if we requested them to work swing hours or nighttime to match our timezone. On occasions where we did, it was often overlapped, i.e. we'd only request them to work through midnight or 1 am as opposed to all night long. It was based on or operational needs, and it wasn't particularly popular with them, although in Indian culture a lot of times they won't openly say that unless they know you well.

As for free food and other perks, that really depends on what other companies offer, as well as location and perhaps seniority as well. More than once have I worked for a company that will stack certain floors, buildings, or even rooms with more or better items than say a factory-style breakroom where there's a vending machine or small automated area where people can buy food. And most executive floors see so many leftovers from entertaining clients and other meetings that they constantly drown in catered food anyway.

avier wrote:
Maybe if US based UA employees settled for a fifth of their current pay (i.e to be paid as much as their Indian counterparts), even they might get free rides home for over-nights. And maybe even free food. :duck:


Sure, there's a reason it's called total compensation. It's a package, and when an employee in a given country lifts the bag, it still needs to feel heavy enough to make it worthwhile for them. Whether the weight comes from the chicken, the gravy or the potatoes is up to the employer. And whether that package is acceptable is up to the employee. If it isn't, they'll quit at their first best opportunity, same as stateside.

COSPN wrote:
Oh . I need to list some jobs we had some people quit recently . Anyone know the postal code for India? Must be IN...sure. Must be ...So then the jobs show up as Indiana.
..If they had used the correct job listing location codes those jobs would never have hit anyone’s Indeed searches

I know there must be many smart people there but Probably need to wait a few months to hire people a freeze is a freeze .


India has lots of Postal Codes, the same as the US, just with six digits instead of 5 or Zip+4... The one for UA's office in Gurgaon is 122022. Jobs there will tend to show up as "India" or as "Gurgaon". They used these previously, that's how I found the specific jobs I referenced before. Not sure whether those replaced (or were intended to replace) US-based UA employees, as jayunited pointed out they could also be a backfill for local turnover, although personally I think it's unusual to do backfills when you're about to make more cuts beyond the people who already took voluntarily packages.

The primary way these postings make sense in the current environment is as a plan B in case the second funding package doesn't go through and they'll have to make cuts stateside come October 1st. It's a perfectly legitimate move come October 1st as the $5 billion they got from taxpayers only covers stateside employees until September 30th, the end of this month.

dtw2hyd wrote:
I wouldn't call it a free ride. It is sort of a employee perk knowing it is not safe for women to travel at odd hours. You don't want morning news is about your employee in a ditch. Believe me your logo will be all over the news. It is not the west to send a cease & desist notice and media will not say employer's name.

I don't know now, but offices in India used to have office boys, serving tea and snacks to employees. They take too many tea breaks.

Enough with cultural issues, do United really need network planners burning midnight oil? It is not that an airline will announce new routes every morning.


Exactly, it's ride perk is borne out of necessity, no company wants that type of PR.

As for the network planners, the requisition is likely a hedge in case the US taxpayer funding doesn't get extended past September 30th. They can't fire people stateside until then, but they could obviously do so come POctober 1st and replace them with network planners based in India. It will be a smaller network, but they'll still need x number of planners.

VTORD wrote:
You need diversity of thought to make the best decisions. 5 idiots belonging to 5 different races/ethnicities/religions will still make a bad call. And who defines "diversity"? Are you suggesting India is not a diverse place based on just race and ethnicity!? Do you know how many linguistic and sub-linguistic cultures exist within India? Let's not get into this trope about diversity and inclusion. The argument has no merit in this context.


That plus the India team members are mostly in global roles, meaning they are frequently working with lots of people from other cultures, daily conference calls, emails, meetings, etc. They may have certain group thoughts on say solution design for a given item, but that will tend to be subject to the same review and debate process you'd see stateside since these are ultimately global functions with global teams. So whatever process or technical solution you see come out of their offices, it will have been reviewed and approved by team members who are stateside.
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tax1k
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Re: UA outsouring some corporate positions to India

Wed Sep 02, 2020 7:07 pm

aeromoe wrote:
x1234 wrote:
Oh yes the UA call center in the Philippines! A lot of American companies are setting up call centers in PH because they speak American English instead of British English in India as the Philippines were a former US colony. The Philippines were on UAs radar as it has the 2nd most speakers in the US of Asian languages after Mandarin and Cantonese. Is UAs rumored route SFO-MNL still active?


I just gotta ask. What is the difference between talking to someone who allegedly speaks "American English" vs. "British English" when dealing with a call center? I get the various spelling differences and pronunciations (aluminum vs aluminium, etc) but bottom line: who cares?



For me, the difference is the (perhaps delusional) notion that the person you are talking to has more power to help you than you have yourself. Most real-time solutions are available in an app or online now. But we’d like to think that calling a real live person might get us somewhere. But if they are sitting 6,000 miles away from anyone with authority there’s little chance they have access to additional options - like flights on other airlines, creative connections, etc.
 
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eta unknown
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Re: UA outsouring some corporate positions to India

Wed Sep 02, 2020 8:37 pm

tax1k wrote:
aeromoe wrote:
x1234 wrote:
Oh yes the UA call center in the Philippines! A lot of American companies are setting up call centers in PH because they speak American English instead of British English in India as the Philippines were a former US colony. The Philippines were on UAs radar as it has the 2nd most speakers in the US of Asian languages after Mandarin and Cantonese. Is UAs rumored route SFO-MNL still active?


I just gotta ask. What is the difference between talking to someone who allegedly speaks "American English" vs. "British English" when dealing with a call center? I get the various spelling differences and pronunciations (aluminum vs aluminium, etc) but bottom line: who cares?



For me, the difference is the (perhaps delusional) notion that the person you are talking to has more power to help you than you have yourself. Most real-time solutions are available in an app or online now. But we’d like to think that calling a real live person might get us somewhere. But if they are sitting 6,000 miles away from anyone with authority there’s little chance they have access to additional options - like flights on other airlines, creative connections, etc.


The issue is British English in an Indian call center is most likely to be Indian English which can be incomprehensible to native English speakers- even worse over the phone. This is why India lost a big chunk of call center work to the Philippines- there were just too many complaints across all industries about not being able to understand the consultants. Example: do you want to prepone your departure date?
Finally, you might want to have a look at episodes of "Mumbai Calling" if you can find them.
 
jakubz
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Re: UA outsouring some corporate positions to India

Wed Sep 02, 2020 10:10 pm

aeroblogger wrote:
COSPN wrote:
Thanks for your reply UA900
This just seems like a big security risk and waste of Money I don’t see how someone in India can have years of experience with AI or EK or Jet that could add Any value to the complicated environment of United.

India seems years behind in aviation for the huge size of their market the Middle East and Turkish Airlines seem to have figured out how to fly folks from India to the places they need to go. Not the Indian carriers..

Mabe an office in Turkey or the UAE would be a better suited for United


The reason they're hiring for these positions in India is because that's where they can find qualified employees - it's very difficult to hire people with the data science/analytical background for some of these roles, especially when big tech companies aggressively recruiting for talent with similar profiles.. At every US carrier, you will find many, many Indian-educated H1-Bs for the same reason - by operating this office in India, UA can recruit directly from the source.


I interpret your comment as saying that UAL can't find qualified employees in the US. Well, take me as a case study. I have gotten notice I am getting laid off. I have US Citizenship (along with one other citizenship which is otherwise irrelevant to the conversation), a STEM undergrad degree, and I am working on an MBA. I have spoken several colleague that have said based on the requirements and preferences of the roles, they think I would at least merit an interview (except the whole thing about India).

I'm sure you others within the group that is getting laid off that could slide right into the role and hit the ground running.

Ultimately, the optics of taking money from PSP or asking for an extension while at the same time appearing to offshore jobs is going to get a lot of people upset. It probably doesn't help this is happening during a crisis and an election year.
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My comment are my own. I don't speak for any company.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: UA outsouring some corporate positions to India

Wed Sep 02, 2020 10:26 pm

CALMSP wrote:
...
but the specific positions that are being posted for India have nothing to do with UA's presence within India, its for data analysis on the US market.


Unfortunately back office positions are the easiest to outsource. All four audit majors have CPAs sitting in India, not sure how they are even allowed to certify any financial document in the USA.
Gone are the days human skill is critical to data analyst job, now it is more into exploring the IT System your corporation sunk $Millions and pays $Millions every year. You might have an innovative idea but you will hit a wall when the system doesn't support implementing it, and it will take few more $Millions to implement your idea, so never going happen.

Anybody who learns the system tricks can survive, and bean counters are not looking for best performers, they are looking at cost savings big picture.
All posts are just opinions.
 
VTORD
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Re: UA outsouring some corporate positions to India

Fri Sep 04, 2020 2:45 pm

eta unknown wrote:
malaysia wrote:
While in Australia, I saw a job advertisement for United for some management job in California and was for an E-3 Visa, the way it was written sounded so dedicated that they needed or wanted specifically to set up an E-3 Visa and hire an Australian over an American for this corporate job in the US.


I'm going to guess you saw a fake job advert. Probably UA wanted to transfer an internal candidate and the decision was already made who would get the job, but UA ran into visa problems or there was some internal dispute so they had to pretend to open the job to everyone by posting the ad. To be honest, I saw a lot of this in Australia- the advertised jobs are already filled.

Very likely they wanted to transfer someone they already employed in Australia to the US in the said position. Most US employment Visas require employers to "post" these jobs and accept applications as part of "proving" that the person for whom they applied the visa, is the best one for that. Most H1Bs know that if a job posting has been opened for a certain period and keeps getting posted on different job boards repeatedly that is almost always a Green Card / PERM filing.

eta unknown wrote:
The issue is British English in an Indian call center is most likely to be Indian English which can be incomprehensible to native English speakers- even worse over the phone. This is why India lost a big chunk of call center work to the Philippines- there were just too many complaints across all industries about not being able to understand the consultants. Example: do you want to prepone your departure date?
Finally, you might want to have a look at episodes of "Mumbai Calling" if you can find them.

Valid points all but it's a two way street. As an Indian in the US who (I like to think) speaks impeccable English and is very comfortable with US English, the number of times I have to spell out on the phone that my first name has an E not an A after that M and my last name has a T and not a B, D or P is simply ridiculous. I am at a point where I just rattle of A as in...for both my first and last names and save everybody some heartburn. Yes I speak with an Indian accent but c'mmon!! esp., the E and the A is just unacceptable
 
VTORD
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Re: UA outsouring some corporate positions to India

Fri Sep 04, 2020 2:58 pm

ua900 wrote:
Hi, not just United and not just India. Most companies will offer comparable arrangements there, mostly for competitive reasons and also liability / the potential of bad PR. Think about how virtually every foreign carrier had to start providing security escorts for airline crews at CCS for example when things turned sour.

A number of countries don't feature a safe commute, especially for female employees. I know that we provided these for our Indian employees if we requested them to work swing hours or nighttime to match our timezone. On occasions where we did, it was often overlapped, i.e. we'd only request them to work through midnight or 1 am as opposed to all night long. It was based on or operational needs, and it wasn't particularly popular with them, although in Indian culture a lot of times they won't openly say that unless they know you well.

As for free food and other perks, that really depends on what other companies offer, as well as location and perhaps seniority as well. More than once have I worked for a company that will stack certain floors, buildings, or even rooms with more or better items than say a factory-style breakroom where there's a vending machine or small automated area where people can buy food. And most executive floors see so many leftovers from entertaining clients and other meetings that they constantly drown in catered food anyway.


Within the manufacturing sector in India, it is not uncommon to find a bus service run by the company that will take different pre-determined route(s) throughout the city to deliver workers to the factory. Many big companies have these as their locations can be remote industrial zones with no or limited avenues for public transport. There is a bus service for each shift and it drops off one shift and brings back the other. If you miss the bus, you (most likely) miss work that day. These factories will also many time have a fully functional cafeteria that provides 3 meals / day to its workers at subsidized rates. Depending upon what shift you work, you end up getting 2 meals daily.
 
travelsonic
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Re: UA outsouring some corporate positions to India

Fri Sep 04, 2020 3:13 pm

ua900 wrote:
Galore wrote:

That tired old trope. Flying on the legacies in the USA is not cheap. Even our LCCs are rather expensive. Try Europe with your argument. There you can really actually book super low fares. But here in the USA, where the structure grew to quasi Oligopolies like AA at DFW or DL at ATL? Even WN at DAL (AA’s Oligopoly Partner (oh, “competitor”) in the metroplex) is comparatively expensive. The absolutely cheapest fare from DAL to SAT two weeks out is $108 RT (just checked). For fun, same dates VIE to BCN on FR is $28 RT. Twenty Eight US Dollars for Vienna to Barcelona.

So if Ryanair makes money with $28 RT fares what’s the deal with our “low” cost carriers that charge freaking $108 for a Dallas San Antonio RT?
Oh, DFW to CUN on Spirit, our ULTRA low cost carrier (lol) sets you back a cool $412 RT at these dates. In Ryanair Style No Frills Sardine Box Flights.

Please, that fairytale that US airlines somehow offer cheap fares and that these alleged basic economy fares and bargain hunting are the root of the problem in the US needs to be laid to rest.


It's anecdotal but FWIW, a friend of mine wants to have lunch with me in CLE soon and I could take AA DFW-CLE for $75 round trip in basic economy, or $39 one way. I could also take NK for $26 one way if I wanted. I won't because I don't like basic economy but the option is there for those who want the No Frills Sardine Box. DFW-CUN can be had on AA for $164 RT in basic economy or $194 in regular economy RT. Source: https://www.google.com/flights?hl=en#fl ... .USD.16364


I think the point he was trying to make, and I might be wrong on this so take it with a grain of salt (as I DO genuinely sometimes read things too fast and miss things, haha), is that it seems idiotic to pin this on the customers and their choices - and the "trope" he is referring to is that of shunting onto customers blame for things that are arguably within the scope of management, and executives, and the corporation, and out of their hands.
 
CALMSP
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Re: UA outsouring some corporate positions to India

Sat Oct 17, 2020 2:41 pm

I know someone somewhere in the thread asked about how many positions: 1 director, 24 positions ranging from Sr Manager/Manager/Sr Analyst/Analyst. (these are the known positions, could be more)
 
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ramprat74
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Re: UA outsouring some corporate positions to India

Sat Oct 17, 2020 3:26 pm

United had no problem bringing back the vendors that tag bags at the ticket counters, while they have thousands of Customer Service Agents furloughed. Just like our politicians, they don't care about the middle class worker.
 
CaliguyNYC
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Re: UA outsouring some corporate positions to India

Sat Oct 17, 2020 4:37 pm

CALMSP wrote:
I know someone somewhere in the thread asked about how many positions: 1 director, 24 positions ranging from Sr Manager/Manager/Sr Analyst/Analyst. (these are the known positions, could be more)


Seriously - that is it. We have heard so much heartburn for that???? United in a global company. They moved a very very very small fraction of their HQ jobs to India (perhaps these jobs mostly interact with non US country staff). Anyway, the world isn't ending. Part of global trade are offices globally. What ever people hear might say about indian accents, call centers etc, in the end, India has a very large pool of skilled labor who’s business styles/skills are very compatible with Anglo influenced corporations. Just look at the success of Indian skilled labor in the US, UK, Australia. This should come as no surprise and is no real threat to American jobs.

And to the early posts on racism - I am torn on what drives it (I really want it to not be racism). I have found that many Americans can’t understand how India fits into the global economy. They tend to think of our (America’s) commonalities with Europe and also UK, Canada, Australia. In point of fact, India has essentially the same laws and business foundation as the UK, Canada, Australia and the US with Europe being much more different than people think. Beyond unskilled labor, India provided skilled workers (accountants, govt workers, bankers, etc) to all corners of the British empire. So in some respect, Indians have been taking westerners jobs for centuries. Race and religion actually doesn’t define business culture as much as people think. India shows that. But sadly most Americans get stuck on accents, chaos, poverty, caste etc of India and can’t see beyond that.
 
Cubsrule
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Re: UA outsouring some corporate positions to India

Sat Oct 17, 2020 6:06 pm

ramprat74 wrote:
United had no problem bringing back the vendors that tag bags at the ticket counters, while they have thousands of Customer Service Agents furloughed. Just like our politicians, they don't care about the middle class worker.


There’s nothing inherently wrong with vendors at UA or anywhere else; some UA vendors (especially ground staff at certain international stations and some regional f/as) do a really good job. The problem is that UA seems not to care about the quality of the experience that the vendors provide.
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CALMSP
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Re: UA outsouring some corporate positions to India

Sat Oct 17, 2020 6:15 pm

CaliguyNYC wrote:
CALMSP wrote:
I know someone somewhere in the thread asked about how many positions: 1 director, 24 positions ranging from Sr Manager/Manager/Sr Analyst/Analyst. (these are the known positions, could be more)


Seriously - that is it. We have heard so much heartburn for that???? United in a global company. They moved a very very very small fraction of their HQ jobs to India (perhaps these jobs mostly interact with non US country staff). Anyway, the world isn't ending. Part of global trade are offices globally. What ever people hear might say about indian accents, call centers etc, in the end, India has a very large pool of skilled labor who’s business styles/skills are very compatible with Anglo influenced corporations. Just look at the success of Indian skilled labor in the US, UK, Australia. This should come as no surprise and is no real threat to American jobs.

And to the early posts on racism - I am torn on what drives it (I really want it to not be racism). I have found that many Americans can’t understand how India fits into the global economy. They tend to think of our (America’s) commonalities with Europe and also UK, Canada, Australia. In point of fact, India has essentially the same laws and business foundation as the UK, Canada, Australia and the US with Europe being much more different than people think. Beyond unskilled labor, India provided skilled workers (accountants, govt workers, bankers, etc) to all corners of the British empire. So in some respect, Indians have been taking westerners jobs for centuries. Race and religion actually doesn’t define business culture as much as people think. India shows that. But sadly most Americans get stuck on accents, chaos, poverty, caste etc of India and can’t see beyond that.


well, I think what some are upset about (rightfully so) is reducing your headcount here in the US and finding the job with lower pay in India. These are positions that are 60-75,000 / year and up if in the US. But, as a company, you need to find a way to get the job done at the lowest cost.
 
AEROFAN
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Re: UA outsouring some corporate positions to India

Sat Oct 17, 2020 6:47 pm

Vicenza wrote:
AEROFAN wrote:
ua900 wrote:

Maybe in 2030...



I had to make business trips to India every quarter for business reviews due to the airline outsourcing. I simply could not understand what most of the Indian workers I interacted with were saying and I am multi-lingual speaking and writing four languages fluently.


Whilst I can understand your willingness to show your ability, fluency in four languages is not going to help very much in India, unless one of them happens to be one of the 26 Indian languages. However the majority in business, especially in international, also speak English

The point I am trying to make is that I found it extremely difficult to understand the English speakers. I ended up reading lips and hoped I was correct or communicated by telling them to send me an email.
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AEROFAN
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Re: UA outsouring some corporate positions to India

Sat Oct 17, 2020 6:50 pm

CaliguyNYC wrote:
CALMSP wrote:
I know someone somewhere in the thread asked about how many positions: 1 director, 24 positions ranging from Sr Manager/Manager/Sr Analyst/Analyst. (these are the known positions, could be more)


Seriously - that is it. We have heard so much heartburn for that???? United in a global company. They moved a very very very small fraction of their HQ jobs to India (perhaps these jobs mostly interact with non US country staff). Anyway, the world isn't ending. Part of global trade are offices globally. What ever people hear might say about indian accents, call centers etc, in the end, India has a very large pool of skilled labor who’s business styles/skills are very compatible with Anglo influenced corporations. Just look at the success of Indian skilled labor in the US, UK, Australia. This should come as no surprise and is no real threat to American jobs.

And to the early posts on racism - I am torn on what drives it (I really want it to not be racism). I have found that many Americans can’t understand how India fits into the global economy. They tend to think of our (America’s) commonalities with Europe and also UK, Canada, Australia. In point of fact, India has essentially the same laws and business foundation as the UK, Canada, Australia and the US with Europe being much more different than people think. Beyond unskilled labor, India provided skilled workers (accountants, govt workers, bankers, etc) to all corners of the British empire. So in some respect, Indians have been taking westerners jobs for centuries. Race and religion actually doesn’t define business culture as much as people think. India shows that. But sadly most Americans get stuck on accents, chaos, poverty, caste etc of India and can’t see beyond that.


The last economics paper that I read on globalization, stated that it has been to the detriment of American workers.

What if the few positions is for a proof of concept that UA is doing? Once deemed to be a success, it then moves more positions higher up the chain...
“You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant.” ~Harlan Ellison~
 
CaliguyNYC
Posts: 1244
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Re: UA outsouring some corporate positions to India

Sat Oct 17, 2020 9:53 pm

AEROFAN wrote:
CaliguyNYC wrote:
CALMSP wrote:
I know someone somewhere in the thread asked about how many positions: 1 director, 24 positions ranging from Sr Manager/Manager/Sr Analyst/Analyst. (these are the known positions, could be more)


Seriously - that is it. We have heard so much heartburn for that???? United in a global company. They moved a very very very small fraction of their HQ jobs to India (perhaps these jobs mostly interact with non US country staff). Anyway, the world isn't ending. Part of global trade are offices globally. What ever people hear might say about indian accents, call centers etc, in the end, India has a very large pool of skilled labor who’s business styles/skills are very compatible with Anglo influenced corporations. Just look at the success of Indian skilled labor in the US, UK, Australia. This should come as no surprise and is no real threat to American jobs.

And to the early posts on racism - I am torn on what drives it (I really want it to not be racism). I have found that many Americans can’t understand how India fits into the global economy. They tend to think of our (America’s) commonalities with Europe and also UK, Canada, Australia. In point of fact, India has essentially the same laws and business foundation as the UK, Canada, Australia and the US with Europe being much more different than people think. Beyond unskilled labor, India provided skilled workers (accountants, govt workers, bankers, etc) to all corners of the British empire. So in some respect, Indians have been taking westerners jobs for centuries. Race and religion actually doesn’t define business culture as much as people think. India shows that. But sadly most Americans get stuck on accents, chaos, poverty, caste etc of India and can’t see beyond that.


The last economics paper that I read on globalization, stated that it has been to the detriment of American workers.

What if the few positions is for a proof of concept that UA is doing? Once deemed to be a success, it then moves more positions higher up the chain...


There is no evidence of this (aside from maybe an example here and there). Look at finance. All the US banks moved certain jobs to India. The higher jobs stayed In the US and continue to add jobs. I am willing to bet that the jobs UA moved Require advanced education but also are more data crunching that require experience. So while 70k might seem like a lot, it is low for SF, Ch, NY for business majors with experience and add to that Americans with those degrees don’t want to do the data crunching for more than a few years (they want to move up the chain to more strategic jobs). You see the same thing in tech jobs. India got jobs sure, but the US retained the cream And the bulk of the jobs and continues to add. Btw if US companies only hire Americans than they should only sell to or serve Americans. Which I don’t think is wise, UA did noting wrong and IMHO people are just over reacting and a bit xenophobic. Anyway that is my 2 cents. Finally - the problem with globalization has been the way we implemented it, not globalization per se.
 
superjeff
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Re: UA outsouring some corporate positions to India

Sat Oct 17, 2020 10:44 pm

aeromoe wrote:
x1234 wrote:
Oh yes the UA call center in the Philippines! A lot of American companies are setting up call centers in PH because they speak American English instead of British English in India as the Philippines were a former US colony. The Philippines were on UAs radar as it has the 2nd most speakers in the US of Asian languages after Mandarin and Cantonese. Is UAs rumored route SFO-MNL still active?


I just gotta ask. What is the difference between talking to someone who allegedly speaks "American English" vs. "British English" when dealing with a call center? I get the various spelling differences and pronunciations (aluminum vs aluminium, etc) but bottom line: who cares?


For many Americans, it is much easier to understand the Filipinos than the Indians - the Filipinos speak American English pretty closely to how we speak in North America; the Indians tend to speak with a British accent with an Indian twist. That makes the Filipinos much easier to speak with for many North Americans (Canadians speak very similarly to Americans).
 
KFTG
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Re: UA outsouring some corporate positions to India

Sun Oct 18, 2020 12:03 am

The thread is derailed.
The lengths some people go to apologise for what United did here are stunning.
United is a US flag carrier.
The problem is that they were in receipt of US taxpayer funding at the time, and the US based employees were being laid off and told their positions were "being eliminated" only to see their previous jobs outsourced to India.
But by all means, keep carrying that corporate water.
 
slcdeltarumd11
Posts: 4844
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Re: UA outsouring some corporate positions to India

Sun Oct 18, 2020 12:32 am

A few people on here will defend any move by the US3 even if they contradict themseleves. It's sad and they need a life. Back to reality, let's all agree any US job lost is a terrible thing especially in these times and we should hope this is a one off and not a trend.
 
COSPN
Posts: 1834
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Re: UA outsouring some corporate positions to India

Sun Oct 18, 2020 1:56 am

You guys miss the point .

It’s about fairness 1 dollar or 1000 dollars an hour job .. no United employee should not be allowed to apply for the Job “because it’s in India” or anyplace else... most of these jobs could be done remote .. it’s just a scam to hire a certain special group of people.. United jobs should be open to every United employee.. “ US citizens need not apply “ is not a good look for United..
 
strfyr51
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Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:04 pm

Re: UA outsouring some corporate positions to India

Sun Oct 18, 2020 2:48 am

2eng2efficient wrote:
They would outsource the pilots and FAs to India if they could...

In all seriousness, they should never have moved HQ to Chicago. The cost of living there is about 20% higher than the Houston Metro. Those are salaries, taxes, and benefits on a substantial number of corporate employees that could have been avoided. Instead, they wanted HQ to be in the Loop, in the tallest building to boot.

the World Headquarters has ALWAYS been in the Chicago Area. Either in the Northwest suburbs at Elk Grove Village or the Willis Tower in downtown Chicago. This subject has been Hashed and RE-Hashed numerous times since the merger and the UAL Board of Directors have stated more than Once, The name on the airplanes WILL be United and the hometown is Chicago! I don't see what the problem is. It would be even More expensive if the Location was in San Francisco near the Maintenance operations center.. I fail to see where there's a problem. If anybody wants to work somewhere else? Then take a Job at a station that isn't Chicago 'cuz it's NOT like they're going to Move anytime in the near future!! All of this whining makes no sense/ You knew where the Company WAS when you took the damn Job!
 
KFTG
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Re: UA outsouring some corporate positions to India

Sun Oct 18, 2020 2:49 am

It is a trend, a trend that has been on a downward spiral for decades.
 
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ramprat74
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Re: UA outsouring some corporate positions to India

Sun Oct 18, 2020 4:17 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
ramprat74 wrote:
United had no problem bringing back the vendors that tag bags at the ticket counters, while they have thousands of Customer Service Agents furloughed. Just like our politicians, they don't care about the middle class worker.


There’s nothing inherently wrong with vendors at UA or anywhere else; some UA vendors (especially ground staff at certain international stations and some regional f/as) do a really good job. The problem is that UA seems not to care about the quality of the experience that the vendors provide.


Yes it is when there are CS agents furloughed to the street at that station.
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 14622
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

Re: UA outsouring some corporate positions to India

Sun Oct 18, 2020 4:52 pm

ramprat74 wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
ramprat74 wrote:
United had no problem bringing back the vendors that tag bags at the ticket counters, while they have thousands of Customer Service Agents furloughed. Just like our politicians, they don't care about the middle class worker.


There’s nothing inherently wrong with vendors at UA or anywhere else; some UA vendors (especially ground staff at certain international stations and some regional f/as) do a really good job. The problem is that UA seems not to care about the quality of the experience that the vendors provide.


Yes it is when there are CS agents furloughed to the street at that station.


Is UA in breach of its contract with those CS agents?
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
Jomar777
Posts: 571
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Re: UA outsouring some corporate positions to India

Mon Oct 19, 2020 7:46 am

PBADC3 wrote:
asuflyer wrote:
United has now removed the jobs from their website claiming the jobs in India were posted in error.

https://onemileatatime.com/united-airli ... job-error/


Uhhh... they only removed them from united.com where it was discovered. They (and others) are still out there on LinkedIn... some posted as recently as a couple of days ago.

So no, United, you can claim this was a mistake and turn the spin-dizzle machine up to 12, but guess what. You. Got. Caught. You got caught taking taxpayer money to keep airline employees employed in the U.S. Meanwhile you are hiring the backfills in India to outsource the heads in Chicago. Caught. Red handed.


Whilst I am not giving United a break, I do take jobs posted on LinkedIN with a pinch of salt. It is easier to find jobs there that either have gone ages ago or that never were real. Seems the admin at LinkedIn does not pursue a more close evaluation of their Job Adverts.
 
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ua900
Moderator
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Re: UA outsouring some corporate positions to India

Mon Oct 19, 2020 7:42 pm

KFTG wrote:
The thread is derailed.
...
The problem is that they were in receipt of US taxpayer funding at the time, and the US based employees were being laid off and told their positions were "being eliminated" only to see their previous jobs outsourced to India.


^^^This^^^

The thread was started in August, while UA was receiving CARES money to *not* lay off anyone and refrain from offshoring jobs.

In hindsight, it looks like the job postings were a "head start" for a scenario where UA wouldn't receive extended funding beyond October 1st to keep these jobs in the US (or at all). It's not unusual for hiring to take a while, in this case perhaps two months between the time a job is posted and someone's first day at work. Had it not been for the UA HR postings on LinkedIn, we could have only speculated. They can and do post these on other platforms now, all the same. Currently (post-Oct 1st) there's no US government requirement that they refrain from that since the guaranteed period has expired.

slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
A few people on here will defend any move by the US3 even if they contradict themseleves. It's sad and they need a life. Back to reality, let's all agree any US job lost is a terrible thing especially in these times and we should hope this is a one off and not a trend.


Agreed, and hopefully, the CARES Kool-Aid didn't get anyone hooked on permanent/long-term subsidies just to keep more jobs in the US, especially for non-customer facing positions.

COSPN wrote:
You guys miss the point .

It’s about fairness 1 dollar or 1000 dollars an hour job .. no United employee should not be allowed to apply for the Job “because it’s in India” or anyplace else... most of these jobs could be done remote .. it’s just a scam to hire a certain special group of people.. United jobs should be open to every United employee.. “ US citizens need not apply “ is not a good look for United..


Standard UA Qualification & Experience section, first bullet point:
• Must be legally authorized to work in <country name here> for any employer without sponsorship

If I'm a UA employee in say Guatemala, a UA job in the US or India isn't open to me unless I am authorized to work there. There are no "open borders" just because someone is a company employee. I can't just live and work wherever I like without filling out paperwork first even if I'm willing to work based on local conditions, and neither can my foreign counterparts.

Agreed that as a US company with a huge US footprint and US customer base it's bad optics to outsource HQ jobs, or even airport jobs to vendors and flying to Express carriers, provided that customers care sufficiently about where employees are based or even know that someone is a contractor. And many people likely don't know or care sufficiently to prevent that from happening.

ramprat74 wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
ramprat74 wrote:
United had no problem bringing back the vendors that tag bags at the ticket counters, while they have thousands of Customer Service Agents furloughed. Just like our politicians, they don't care about the middle class worker.


There’s nothing inherently wrong with vendors at UA or anywhere else; some UA vendors (especially ground staff at certain international stations and some regional f/as) do a really good job. The problem is that UA seems not to care about the quality of the experience that the vendors provide.


Yes it is when there are CS agents furloughed to the street at that station.


I don't know the specifics of their contract but would assume that there's a provision in their collective bargaining agreement that would prevent that if their union is worth their salt.

Cubsrule wrote:
ramprat74 wrote:
United had no problem bringing back the vendors that tag bags at the ticket counters, while they have thousands of Customer Service Agents furloughed. Just like our politicians, they don't care about the middle class worker.


There’s nothing inherently wrong with vendors at UA or anywhere else; some UA vendors (especially ground staff at certain international stations and some regional f/as) do a really good job. The problem is that UA seems not to care about the quality of the experience that the vendors provide.


Correct, not inherently. The point was that it would be wrong for United to do so while also receiving CARES money to protect the jobs. Now that that's done and over with, it's down to balancing employment agreements with United's ongoing need to stop bleeding cash. As a MM 1K, I appreciate a good customer experience. If say Mesa doesn't provide that in my view, I'll avoid UAX flights operated by Mesa, flying mainline, or say Skywest instead.

I don't have visibility into who provides the various ground services at a given station, but I'll tell you that I'll write to the 1K line feedback that is both positive and constructive if something catches my attention. I'll also share that plenty of great UA employees have provided me with outstanding customer service over the years and decades, as have some vendors. Some of my best experiences have been with long term employees, some of my worst have been with short term vendors who were likely just stiffed / underpaid, not just at United but also at other airlines, and at Hertz, Marriott, my local supermarket, and elsewhere. It's not just United's problem, it's universal. But I'd wager 5 bucks that the company will care the moment the customer complaints pile up, no matter whether something is outsourced or in-house.
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Vicenza
Posts: 171
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2020 3:21 pm

Re: UA outsouring some corporate positions to India

Mon Oct 19, 2020 8:47 pm

slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
A few people on here will defend any move by the US3 even if they contradict themseleves. It's sad and they need a life. Back to reality, let's all agree any US job lost is a terrible thing especially in these times and we should hope this is a one off and not a trend.


With all due respect, any job lost anywhere in these times is a terrible thing and there is nothing 'exclusive'about a US job, nor should there be. This is also an international forum

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