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SeaKing4
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Boeing Removes 8 x 787 From Service over Structural Issues

Fri Aug 28, 2020 8:02 am

According to the link below, Boeing has removed 8 in service Recently constructed B787 from service over structural issues within the tail section of the airframe. Airlines affected include United, Air Canada and a Singapore Airlines.

If already being talked about somewhere else please delete.

https://theaircurrent.com/aviation-safe ... ral-issue/
 
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keesje
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Re: Boeing Removes 8 x 787 From Service over Structural Issues

Fri Aug 28, 2020 8:34 am

If the issue is clear and isolated, not to much of a pain. The airlines won't loose a flight over it. Lots of access capacity. Boeing will compensate a bit for the hassle.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
PANAMsterdam
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Re: Boeing Removes 8 x 787 From Service over Structural Issues

Fri Aug 28, 2020 8:35 am

That can happen and i'm glad they found and fix(ed) it before something bad might have happened. Was the same case as the final 737-800 for KLM, took a while to fix the issues but eventually KLM got the last 738 ever produced and it's flying happily around Europe now.
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B787register
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Re: Boeing Removes 8 x 787 From Service over Structural Issues

Fri Aug 28, 2020 8:57 am

Do we know which aircraft ate effected
David C
 
Max Q
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Re: Boeing Removes 8 x 787 From Service over Structural Issues

Fri Aug 28, 2020 9:02 am

Hope it’s confined to those 8 airframes, the article states it is but then goes on to say they have to look at the rest of the in service fleet


A widespread 787 grounding would be disastrous right now, it’s efficiency, versatility and performance has been invaluable for operating what limited passenger service there is and it’s widely used on cargo flights creating precious revenue
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


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RobK
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Re: Boeing Removes 8 x 787 From Service over Structural Issues

Fri Aug 28, 2020 9:25 am

PANAMsterdam wrote:
That can happen and i'm glad they found and fix(ed) it before something bad might have happened. Was the same case as the final 737-800 for KLM, took a while to fix the issues but eventually KLM got the last 738 ever produced and it's flying happily around Europe now.


"Took a while to fix the issues" ? Nope. The fuselage wasn't used and a brand new one was ordered from Spirit.
 
787SIN
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Re: Boeing Removes 8 x 787 From Service over Structural Issues

Fri Aug 28, 2020 9:25 am

Strange, something by the way the article describes it would surely trigger an emergency AD if there is an immediate risk to flight safety. But nothing on the FAA website as of yet.
 
VSMUT
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Re: Boeing Removes 8 x 787 From Service over Structural Issues

Fri Aug 28, 2020 9:27 am

B787register wrote:
Do we know which aircraft ate effected


They say Singapore Airlines and Air Canada, so clearly both the -9 and -10.
 
B787register
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Re: Boeing Removes 8 x 787 From Service over Structural Issues

Fri Aug 28, 2020 9:37 am

Sorry i meant which particular aorframes (the registrations) with so many parked atm its hard to figure out
David C
 
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Re: Boeing Removes 8 x 787 From Service over Structural Issues

Fri Aug 28, 2020 9:40 am

Does anyone know the particular registrations of the affected aircraft?
 
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747classic
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Re: Boeing Removes 8 x 787 From Service over Structural Issues

Fri Aug 28, 2020 10:37 am

According the article all affected parts are joined at the Boeing Charleston plant.
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enzo011
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Re: Boeing Removes 8 x 787 From Service over Structural Issues

Fri Aug 28, 2020 10:39 am

The good news is that Boeing caught the issues and withdrew the frames. They have reported it to the FAA and I am sure the FAA is looking at the information they have received from Boeing on what the problem is and the proposed solutions. If there is a need for more action then I am sure it will follow, if the steps taken by Boeing is sufficient then all is good.

The bad news, 6 years ago there was an investigation by Al Jazeera on the quality of work being done on the 787. It is a bit worrying that in that time there still seems to be problems occurring and this issue is two separate manufacturing problems that are occurring together that means there is a concern about the structure of these recently built aircraft. So it is not just one problem that slipped through but two problems, one in a known problem area, that caused Boeing to withdraw these frames.

For Boeing's sake this better just be a small oversight on their part. The 787 is the only program looking half healthy and they don't need more problems added to their current situation.
 
B787register
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Re: Boeing Removes 8 x 787 From Service over Structural Issues

Fri Aug 28, 2020 10:52 am

I think this is rather more than a small oversight. To me small oversight is a coffee machine not working, however a part that could possibly cause the destruction of the airframe is a rather large boo boo
David C
 
PANAMsterdam
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Re: Boeing Removes 8 x 787 From Service over Structural Issues

Fri Aug 28, 2020 11:13 am

RobK wrote:
PANAMsterdam wrote:
That can happen and i'm glad they found and fix(ed) it before something bad might have happened. Was the same case as the final 737-800 for KLM, took a while to fix the issues but eventually KLM got the last 738 ever produced and it's flying happily around Europe now.


"Took a while to fix the issues" ? Nope. The fuselage wasn't used and a brand new one was ordered from Spirit.


That's fixing the issue right :lol:
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Ziyulu
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Re: Boeing Removes 8 x 787 From Service over Structural Issues

Fri Aug 28, 2020 11:49 am

787SIN wrote:
Strange, something by the way the article describes it would surely trigger an emergency AD if there is an immediate risk to flight safety. But nothing on the FAA website as of yet.


I'm not sure if the FAA is a reputable source for safety.
 
Noshow
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Re: Boeing Removes 8 x 787 From Service over Structural Issues

Fri Aug 28, 2020 1:11 pm

This cannot be allowed to happen unnoticed. Two serious mistakes per plane? Breakup risk?
It's good that Boeing found out about it and acted fast but still I'm not not comfortable to think about that modern in service planes can have glitches like this.
Where are these planes now? Will they be ferried to Boeing?
 
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Re: Boeing Removes 8 x 787 From Service over Structural Issues

Fri Aug 28, 2020 1:22 pm

Noshow wrote:
This cannot be allowed to happen unnoticed. Two serious mistakes per plane? Breakup risk?
It's good that Boeing found out about it and acted fast but still I'm not not comfortable to think about that modern in service planes can have glitches like this.
Where are these planes now? Will they be ferried to Boeing?

If you worked in the industry, you would never fly. Recall the A380 wing issues only found due to an engine failure? Poor coefficient if thermal expansion mismatch. You had composite on aluminum, an aircraft design no-no.

The A320 had corrosion cracking in the wings.
LEAP engines have combustor cracking.
Pratt engines had the seal isdues
RR engines have their known issues

This goes back to the first aircraft. Boeing caught it and self reported. That is a no fault situation. Aviation safety works by being non-punitive for self reporting. It is why aviation is the safest form of travel per km.

Lightsaber
 
B787register
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Re: Boeing Removes 8 x 787 From Service over Structural Issues

Fri Aug 28, 2020 1:35 pm

If this goes back to the first aircraft then we could see all 787s grounded again.
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Re: Boeing Removes 8 x 787 From Service over Structural Issues

Fri Aug 28, 2020 1:38 pm

747classic wrote:
According the article all affected parts are joined at the Boeing Charleston plant.


what a surprise.....
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Re: Boeing Removes 8 x 787 From Service over Structural Issues

Fri Aug 28, 2020 2:34 pm

Ziyulu wrote:
787SIN wrote:
Strange, something by the way the article describes it would surely trigger an emergency AD if there is an immediate risk to flight safety. But nothing on the FAA website as of yet.

I'm not sure if the FAA is a reputable source for safety.

I'm not sure Al Jazeera is a reputable source for safety.

The fact that Boeing is self-reporting this issue should show their safety culture in a positive light, but instead we get old stuff brought up instead.

B787register wrote:
If this goes back to the first aircraft then we could see all 787s grounded again.

It doesn't. Lightsaber was being rhetorical, i.e. the Wright Flyer presumably had all kinds of safety issues.

The article makes it clear this manufacturing issue impacts eight specific aircraft.

The article says this area is a manufacturing challenge and Boeing has retained data on all previous builds and can track exactly what aircraft have the issue.
Last edited by Revelation on Fri Aug 28, 2020 2:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Opus99
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Re: Boeing Removes 8 x 787 From Service over Structural Issues

Fri Aug 28, 2020 2:36 pm

Revelation wrote:
Ziyulu wrote:
787SIN wrote:
Strange, something by the way the article describes it would surely trigger an emergency AD if there is an immediate risk to flight safety. But nothing on the FAA website as of yet.

I'm not sure if the FAA is a reputable source for safety.

I'm not sure Al Jazeera is a reputable source for safety.

B787register wrote:
If this goes back to the first aircraft then we could see all 787s grounded again.

It doesn't. Lightsaber was being rhetorical, i.e. the Wright Flyer presumably had all kinds of safety issues.

The article makes it clear this manufacturing issue impacts eight specific aircraft.

The article says this area is a manufacturing challenge and Boeing has retained data on all previous builds and can track exactly what aircraft have the issue.

Precisely, the oldest 787 in revenue service is almost 10 years old if not over. And the issue isn’t streaming to them so it’s definitely nothing to do with the quality of the product as a whole. It was a manufacturing defect on select frames
 
Antarius
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Re: Boeing Removes 8 x 787 From Service over Structural Issues

Fri Aug 28, 2020 2:39 pm

DALCE wrote:
747classic wrote:
According the article all affected parts are joined at the Boeing Charleston plant.


what a surprise.....


I believe all 787s have this join done in Charleston and always have. So it isn't one of those SC plant vs WA plant issues.

The pieces are fabricated and joined with the aft pressure bulkhead at Boeing’s North Charleston, S.C. plant and then delivered for final assembly to the company’s nearby final assembly building or flown to Everett, Wash


EDIT - last line of the article
The North Charleston, S.C. factory that produces the aft fuselage where the structural issue was introduced builds the section regardless of where final assembly is completed.
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hiflyeras
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Re: Boeing Removes 8 x 787 From Service over Structural Issues

Fri Aug 28, 2020 2:54 pm

747classic wrote:
According the article all affected parts are joined at the Boeing Charleston plant.


That was my question...especially pertinent with the talk of shutting down the Everett 787 line.
 
Antarius
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Re: Boeing Removes 8 x 787 From Service over Structural Issues

Fri Aug 28, 2020 2:58 pm

hiflyeras wrote:
747classic wrote:
According the article all affected parts are joined at the Boeing Charleston plant.


That was my question...especially pertinent with the talk of shutting down the Everett 787 line.


This join has always been done at Charleston.

See my post above. But key part "The North Charleston, S.C. factory that produces the aft fuselage where the structural issue was introduced builds the section regardless of where final assembly is completed.

Consolidating the 787 FAL line would have no impact on this specific issue at all.
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hiflyeras
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Re: Boeing Removes 8 x 787 From Service over Structural Issues

Fri Aug 28, 2020 3:12 pm

Antarius wrote:
hiflyeras wrote:
747classic wrote:
According the article all affected parts are joined at the Boeing Charleston plant.


That was my question...especially pertinent with the talk of shutting down the Everett 787 line.


This join has always been done at Charleston.

See my post above. But key part "The North Charleston, S.C. factory that produces the aft fuselage where the structural issue was introduced builds the section regardless of where final assembly is completed.

Consolidating the 787 FAL line would have no impact on this specific issue at all.


Growing up near PAE I'm a big supporter of Boeing keeping the Everett assembly line but it's not looking optimistic. The reason cited by you is a big example of why...but the Charleston line is certainly in the news too often when it comes to QC issues.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Boeing Removes 8 x 787 From Service over Structural Issues

Fri Aug 28, 2020 3:25 pm

hiflyeras wrote:
747classic wrote:
According the article all affected parts are joined at the Boeing Charleston plant.


That was my question...especially pertinent with the talk of shutting down the Everett 787 line.


It isn't pertinent because these pieces are only joined at the Charleston plant for every 787 ever built. So it's not like Charleston is doing a worse job than Everett on this.
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Nomadd
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Re: Boeing Removes 8 x 787 From Service over Structural Issues

Fri Aug 28, 2020 3:36 pm

This could be nothing more than a box of parts with a typo on the certification/inspection. Not really worth so many garbage posts yet.
 
Antarius
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Re: Boeing Removes 8 x 787 From Service over Structural Issues

Fri Aug 28, 2020 3:38 pm

Nomadd wrote:
This could be nothing more than a box of parts with a typo on the certification/inspection. Not really worth so many garbage posts yet.


Did you actually read the article? It's definitely more than " a box of parts with a typo".
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Re: Boeing Removes 8 x 787 From Service over Structural Issues

Fri Aug 28, 2020 3:58 pm

hiflyeras wrote:
Antarius wrote:
hiflyeras wrote:

That was my question...especially pertinent with the talk of shutting down the Everett 787 line.


This join has always been done at Charleston.

See my post above. But key part "The North Charleston, S.C. factory that produces the aft fuselage where the structural issue was introduced builds the section regardless of where final assembly is completed.

Consolidating the 787 FAL line would have no impact on this specific issue at all.


Growing up near PAE I'm a big supporter of Boeing keeping the Everett assembly line but it's not looking optimistic. The reason cited by you is a big example of why...but the Charleston line is certainly in the news too often when it comes to QC issues.


Boeing has a quality issue throughout the company, not just related to the SC plant. 737 trash in wings and 767 tanker FOD/etc were also discovered coming form the North West plants.
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Re: Boeing Removes 8 x 787 From Service over Structural Issues

Fri Aug 28, 2020 4:02 pm

hiflyeras wrote:
Growing up near PAE I'm a big supporter of Boeing keeping the Everett assembly line but it's not looking optimistic. The reason cited by you is a big example of why...but the Charleston line is certainly in the news too often when it comes to QC issues.

Growing up near PAE I'm sure you know lots of people have reasons to try to make CHS look bad. I'm not saying one is better than the other. I'm saying it's hard to have an objective view of both. I'm sure CHS has issues because of time pressure, but I imagine all the facilities do. We had the case where the manager at the 737 plant ask to stop production for a while to get caught up and was rebuked, yet this gets less attention than a flashy Al Jz report that is many years old now.
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Re: Boeing Removes 8 x 787 From Service over Structural Issues

Fri Aug 28, 2020 4:29 pm

A fascinating aspect of this issue is that they may have found the problem through data analysis. The article says that the shimming issue is not sufficient to cause a failure, and neither is the smoothness problem. But when the conditions are combined, there's a risk that could manifest as an issue.

I'm considerably curious to know if the model that combines these two conditions is a recent development. I highly suspect the answer is "yes". I'm sure the implications of this will trigger the section of this site's membership who aren't versed in engineering. (I LOL'd when Lightsaber said "If you worked in the industry, you'd never fly." That thought flashed through my mind a few seconds before reading what he wrote.) If this test case is new, it's an indication of safety culture. Sometimes you have ideas for test cases that didn't occur to you earlier, and when you implement them, you find risks you didn't even know about.

I'm a data warehouse engineer by trade. This happens to me all the time. I write code to manufacture data, which means that raw material (data from sources) is transformed through the power of creativity and repetitive processes to create a product whose value is greater than the sum of its parts. We spec the code and the test cases; we develop and test; we remediate and retest; and then we ship to production. Often months later, something will generate an idea (usually a problem in another data pipeline) and you go "Hmmmmm... I wonder if...?" This is a new test case, and applying the test case discovers errors in the transformation that you simply didn't know about.

I assume that every airplane on which I fly left the factory with defects. I assume that every airplane on which I fly has defects added by maintenance. I assume that every airplane on which I fly has risks due to predefined human processes and training, and temporary risks caused by mistakes made by operators. I assume the same thing about my data work, but my data work isn't NEARLY so "safe" as a 787. We don't have a "safety culture." In fact, we have a core tenet in our organization: perfect is the enemy of the good. I'm glad the "good enough" point is so much higher for airplanes.
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kalvado
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Re: Boeing Removes 8 x 787 From Service over Structural Issues

Fri Aug 28, 2020 4:34 pm

lightsaber wrote:
If you worked in the industry, you would never fly.

Probably applies to most industries (just substitute "fly" with the word relevant to whatever you talk about).
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Ziyulu
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Re: Boeing Removes 8 x 787 From Service over Structural Issues

Fri Aug 28, 2020 4:52 pm

I'm wondering if seating arrangements would cause structural issues? I remember on DC-10s and MD-11s, if an airline wanted to arrange seats differently, they would have to reinforce the floor, can anyone confirm if that is true?
 
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smithbs
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Re: Boeing Removes 8 x 787 From Service over Structural Issues

Fri Aug 28, 2020 5:18 pm

lightsaber wrote:
If you worked in the industry, you would never fly.


:checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark:

I used to work in the industry. This is true. It's still one of the safest forms of travel, despite that whenever you board an airplane, you are entering one of the most intensive applications of statistics on Earth.
 
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Re: Boeing Removes 8 x 787 From Service over Structural Issues

Fri Aug 28, 2020 7:00 pm

kalvado wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
If you worked in the industry, you would never fly.

Probably applies to most industries (just substitute "fly" with the word relevant to whatever you talk about).
How do you call the guy who got lowest passing grade in medical school? - "Doctor"

If you worked in the food industry, you would never eat.

Worked for a year or so at a food factory, never saw so many cockroaches in my life.

Back then our packaging/wrappers came from the deep south where cockroaches were endemic.

The cockroaches would hitch a ride on the pallets and we could never get rid of them.
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Re: Boeing Removes 8 x 787 From Service over Structural Issues

Fri Aug 28, 2020 7:29 pm

Max Q wrote:
Hope it’s confined to those 8 airframes, the article states it is but then goes on to say they have to look at the rest of the in service fleet.


The article said Boeing looked at the rest of the in-service fleet and identified only eight airfames with these two issues.


787SIN wrote:
Strange, something by the way the article describes it would surely trigger an emergency AD if there is an immediate risk to flight safety. But nothing on the FAA website as of yet.


It only affects eight frames and the eight frames have been identified and pulled from service. So I am guessing no need for an AD. Also, this may not be an immediate flight-safety risk as while the structure does meet Limit Load, an airframe in commercial service should never get close to Limit Load.
 
drdisque
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Re: Boeing Removes 8 x 787 From Service over Structural Issues

Fri Aug 28, 2020 7:39 pm

Has there been any identification of the variants beyond the SQ aircraft which they said is a -10. I wonder if they're all -10's of if it could any 787 built during that time.
 
Antarius
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Re: Boeing Removes 8 x 787 From Service over Structural Issues

Fri Aug 28, 2020 8:04 pm

drdisque wrote:
Has there been any identification of the variants beyond the SQ aircraft which they said is a -10. I wonder if they're all -10's of if it could any 787 built during that time.


One of the airlines affected is AC/Air Canada who do not operate any -10s. Likely includes the -9 as well (maybe -8 but I think AC took their -8s earlier than this timeframe)
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SeaKing4
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Re: Boeing Removes 8 x 787 From Service over Structural Issues

Fri Aug 28, 2020 8:11 pm

drdisque wrote:
Has there been any identification of the variants beyond the SQ aircraft which they said is a -10. I wonder if they're all -10's of if it could any 787 built during that time.


I would say different variants as Air Canada’s last delivery was April 2019 & that was a 789.
 
Bradin
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Re: Boeing Removes 8 x 787 From Service over Structural Issues

Fri Aug 28, 2020 10:38 pm

The fact we are even talking about it here on A.net is an indicator that that specific QA process at Boeing works.
 
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Re: Boeing Removes 8 x 787 From Service over Structural Issues

Fri Aug 28, 2020 11:32 pm

Bradin wrote:
The fact we are even talking about it here on A.net is an indicator that that specific QA process at Boeing works.


Shouldn't Boeing's Q&A have found these issues at the time of manufacture, not years later?
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Antarius
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Re: Boeing Removes 8 x 787 From Service over Structural Issues

Fri Aug 28, 2020 11:37 pm

scbriml wrote:
Bradin wrote:
The fact we are even talking about it here on A.net is an indicator that that specific QA process at Boeing works.


Shouldn't Boeing's Q&A have found these issues at the time of manufacture, not years later?


Not necessarily. This appears to be a combination of circumstances that came out when they analyzed the data and determined this could be a risk.

Going forward, I'd expect this to become part of QA. But it isn't necessarily something that was available at the time without looking at data in aggregate. The way the article reads is that after data crunching, this popped up.

Either that, or the MAX fiasco resulted in some heads rolling and process changes that led to this. Regardless, seems to be a positive indication of proactive problem management.
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Max Q
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Re: Boeing Removes 8 x 787 From Service over Structural Issues

Sat Aug 29, 2020 7:57 am

Stitch wrote:
Max Q wrote:
Hope it’s confined to those 8 airframes, the article states it is but then goes on to say they have to look at the rest of the in service fleet.


The article said Boeing looked at the rest of the in-service fleet and identified only eight airfames with these two issues.


787SIN wrote:
Strange, something by the way the article describes it would surely trigger an emergency AD if there is an immediate risk to flight safety. But nothing on the FAA website as of yet.


It only affects eight frames and the eight frames have been identified and pulled from service. So I am guessing no need for an AD. Also, this may not be an immediate flight-safety risk as while the structure does meet Limit Load, an airframe in commercial service should never get close to Limit Load.




When they say they ‘looked at the rest of the in service fleet’ that means they looked at the paperwork though


Is that enough of a review ? Inspections may be necessary and if that turns up issues among other airframes this could be serious


Boeing is downplaying it, I hope they’re right , they downplayed the Max issues at first too


Another thing, why does this aircraft, a well refined design in production for years require shims ?
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


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Bradin
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Re: Boeing Removes 8 x 787 From Service over Structural Issues

Sat Aug 29, 2020 8:00 am

scbriml wrote:
Bradin wrote:
The fact we are even talking about it here on A.net is an indicator that that specific QA process at Boeing works.


Shouldn't Boeing's Q&A have found these issues at the time of manufacture, not years later?


Not all defects appear at the time of manufacturing. There maybe specific conditions where the defects might be negligible under most conditions except for rare edge cases.

For example:

British Airways 38 - Ice appeared in the fuel delivery system. The AAIB identified the problem as specific to the Rolls-Royce engine fuel-oil heat exchangers

Qantas Flight 32 - An area of fatigue cracking was found within a stub pipe that feeds oil to the engine HP/IP bearing structure. The stub pipe was not drilled straight, therefore leading to a weakness in the pipe
 
Sokes
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Re: Boeing Removes 8 x 787 From Service over Structural Issues

Sat Aug 29, 2020 10:00 am

kalvado wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
If you worked in the industry, you would never fly.

Probably applies to most industries (just substitute "fly" with the word relevant to whatever you talk about).
How do you call the guy who got lowest passing grade in medical school? - "Doctor"

That's why I decided never to fall sick again.
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Sokes
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Re: Boeing Removes 8 x 787 From Service over Structural Issues

Sat Aug 29, 2020 10:14 am

ContnlEliteCMH wrote:
A fascinating aspect of this issue is that they may have found the problem through data analysis.
...

I'm looking forward for more posts of you.

I am not surprised that such problems appear with new technology. I hope in time Boeing will tell how they found out.
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petertenthije
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Re: Boeing Removes 8 x 787 From Service over Structural Issues

Sat Aug 29, 2020 10:37 am

Bradin wrote:
The fact we are even talking about it here on A.net is an indicator that that specific QA process at Boeing works.

The fact that we are talking about it means that, while this specific QA inspection worked, the overall QA process is lacking.

Ideally one should never ever hear from the people at QA.

When third parties are regularly discussing your QA process, then that should be a massive red flag! Regardless whether those third parties are regulators, the media or curious nerds. And that goes for any industry.
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Revelation
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Re: Boeing Removes 8 x 787 From Service over Structural Issues

Sat Aug 29, 2020 1:42 pm

Bradin wrote:
The fact we are even talking about it here on A.net is an indicator that that specific QA process at Boeing works.

Indeed. Some aren't considering the possibility that we could have been hearing about this after an in-service failure. It is a sign that Boeing is being proactive and isn't burying an expensive problem to fix.
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Stitch
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Re: Boeing Removes 8 x 787 From Service over Structural Issues

Sat Aug 29, 2020 3:35 pm

Max Q wrote:
When they say they ‘looked at the rest of the in service fleet’ that means they looked at the paperwork though.


"Looking through the paperwork" is how they found the eight.


Max Q wrote:
Is that enough of a review?


Apparently it is.


Max Q wrote:
Another thing, why does this aircraft, a well refined design in production for years require shims ?


Properties of CFRP.
 
Oilman
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Re: Boeing Removes 8 x 787 From Service over Structural Issues

Sat Aug 29, 2020 9:12 pm

Stitch wrote:

Properties of CFRP.


Can you please elaborate? I also read up thread that you can’t fasten CFRP to aluminum. How do both materials coexist in the same airframe? Is there some intermediary material?

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