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SuseJ772
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Married Delta Pilots Fly Together, Retire Together?

Sun Aug 30, 2020 12:24 pm

https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/marr ... index.html

This is a pretty cool way to be a pilot if it as the article described it. But it got me slightly curious. I was always under the belief that Captains and First Officers were always a unique pairing, rarely flying with with same person twice. It sounds like these two flew together all the time (always?).

1) Is that possible?

2) If so, what are the mechanisms in place for that to happen (how do you actually schedule by picking your First Officer?)

3) Anyone here have some like this through their career?
Currently at PIE, requesting FWA >> >>
 
Max Q
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Re: Married Delta Pilots Fly Together, Retire Together?

Sun Aug 30, 2020 12:52 pm

We had a married couple that flew together most of the time on the MD80 at Continental

She was the Captain and he was the FO, they were able to bid to fly together most of the time
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


GGg
 
KFLLCFII
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Re: Married Delta Pilots Fly Together, Retire Together?

Sun Aug 30, 2020 1:13 pm

From a passenger perspective, the increased potential for bickering would have me concerned for something small and usually repetitive to be overlooked.

I saw you looking at that other woman.

Engine anti-ice...ONF

I wasn't looking at any woman.
"About the only way to look at it, just a pity you are not POTUS KFLLCFII, seems as if we would all be better off."
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Married Delta Pilots Fly Together, Retire Together?

Sun Aug 30, 2020 1:29 pm

Depends on their seniority in category unless they are both in the top 10% or so.
 
jbmitt
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Re: Married Delta Pilots Fly Together, Retire Together?

Sun Aug 30, 2020 1:49 pm

KFLLCFII wrote:
From a passenger perspective, the increased potential for bickering would have me concerned for something small and usually repetitive to be overlooked.

I saw you looking at that other woman.

Engine anti-ice...ONF

I wasn't looking at any woman.


That’s a stupid assumption. They’ve all done crew resource management training and may perform better in an emergency due to their familiarity with each other and/or instinct.

There’s a number of published instances where parents have flown with kids at the airlines.
 
CriticalPoint
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Re: Married Delta Pilots Fly Together, Retire Together?

Sun Aug 30, 2020 1:52 pm

[twoid][/twoid]
KFLLCFII wrote:
From a passenger perspective, the increased potential for bickering would have me concerned for something small and usually repetitive to be overlooked.

I saw you looking at that other woman.

Engine anti-ice...ONF

I wasn't looking at any woman.


That’s the dumbest thing Iv ever read.
 
mhockey31091
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Re: Married Delta Pilots Fly Together, Retire Together?

Sun Aug 30, 2020 2:16 pm

I'm at a regional airline but it's pretty similar to mainline carriers. Depends on the seniority but occasionally I would fly with the same captains month to month or I would "buddy bid" them and you would get a whole month of flying with that captain. I really only buddy bid my best friend, I never really flew with any captains that I wanted to spend the whole month with. It was always nice flying with someone you knew. As far as people saying they would fight or anything while flying, that's just dumb.
 
devron
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Re: Married Delta Pilots Fly Together, Retire Together?

Sun Aug 30, 2020 2:18 pm

KFLLCFII wrote:
From a passenger perspective, the increased potential for bickering would have me concerned for something small and usually repetitive to be overlooked.

I saw you looking at that other woman.

Engine anti-ice...ONF

I wasn't looking at any woman.



Sorry that makes zero sence. Realistically (but still notthing to worry about) I would be more worried about the suicidal male alone in the cockpit (eurowings / LAM / Alaksa airlines).

Back on topic to bad they had to retire early due to corona hopey they can enjoy it and keep some of the benifits
 
deltairlines
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Re: Married Delta Pilots Fly Together, Retire Together?

Sun Aug 30, 2020 4:28 pm

It sounded like they were both pretty high on the overall seniority list, so when it came to fleet bidding, they determined that they wanted the A330. From there, she was probably at the very top of the A330 list (most people with 35+ years are going to be sitting in the left seat of a plane, not the right seat), and a 35 year veteran captain would still be towards the top of the Captain's bidding order, so it would be pretty easy for them to coordinate schedules together.

When it came to bidding, they probably had their choices in what flights to bid on, so they'd bid accordingly.
 
UPS757Pilot
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Re: Married Delta Pilots Fly Together, Retire Together?

Sun Aug 30, 2020 5:34 pm

devron wrote:
KFLLCFII wrote:
Back on topic to bad they had to retire early due to corona hopey they can enjoy it and keep some of the benifits

Did they have to or want to?
 
davidjohnson6
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Re: Married Delta Pilots Fly Together, Retire Together?

Sun Aug 30, 2020 5:44 pm

I would be somewhat wary of 2 commercial pilots in a medium or large airline flying a large proportion of their flights. Knowing there is an unforgiving second pair of eyes watching you keeps a pilot on their toes. Husband and wife flying together will (almost) always support each other in public, and it's too easy for them to get a little too lax in between check rides.

By all means fly together from time to time, but I would be very dubious about a married couple operating more than maybe 25% of their flights as a pair
 
catiii
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Re: Married Delta Pilots Fly Together, Retire Together?

Sun Aug 30, 2020 5:47 pm

UPS757Pilot wrote:
devron wrote:
KFLLCFII wrote:
Back on topic to bad they had to retire early due to corona hopey they can enjoy it and keep some of the benifits

Did they have to or want to?


They both took the voluntary package.
 
dcajet
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Re: Married Delta Pilots Fly Together, Retire Together?

Sun Aug 30, 2020 5:53 pm

The BBC's "Come Fly with Me" (a spoof on documentaries such as Airline and Airport) had Simon and Jackie Trent – A husband and wife pilot team, flying for Great British Air. Jackie constantly brings up the fact that Simon committed adultery with a female flight attendant (the reason they now fly together).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqtmzpmpu8Q
Keep calm and wash your hands.
 
CriticalPoint
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Re: Married Delta Pilots Fly Together, Retire Together?

Sun Aug 30, 2020 5:57 pm

davidjohnson6 wrote:
I would be somewhat wary of 2 commercial pilots in a medium or large airline flying a large proportion of their flights. Knowing there is an unforgiving second pair of eyes watching you keeps a pilot on their toes. Husband and wife flying together will (almost) always support each other in public, and it's too easy for them to get a little too lax in between check rides.

By all means fly together from time to time, but I would be very dubious about a married couple operating more than maybe 25% of their flights as a pair


It used to be you got a line built for the entire month and you flew with the same crew all month. Friends bid together all the time.

There’s a reason we are called professionals.......
 
catiii
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Re: Married Delta Pilots Fly Together, Retire Together?

Sun Aug 30, 2020 6:01 pm

CriticalPoint wrote:
davidjohnson6 wrote:
I would be somewhat wary of 2 commercial pilots in a medium or large airline flying a large proportion of their flights. Knowing there is an unforgiving second pair of eyes watching you keeps a pilot on their toes. Husband and wife flying together will (almost) always support each other in public, and it's too easy for them to get a little too lax in between check rides.

By all means fly together from time to time, but I would be very dubious about a married couple operating more than maybe 25% of their flights as a pair


It used to be you got a line built for the entire month and you flew with the same crew all month. Friends bid together all the time.

There’s a reason we are called professionals.......


Exactly. There were Multiple months in a row where I flew with the same guys.
 
davidjohnson6
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Re: Married Delta Pilots Fly Together, Retire Together?

Sun Aug 30, 2020 6:03 pm

Professionals are human beings... and as human beings we make mistakes and are prone to get a little lazy or comfortable in our jobs. The 2nd pair of eyes watching you on a regular basis that isn't married to you and will, if necessary, speak out when a person screws up, goes some way to preventing that happening in the first place
 
diverted
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Re: Married Delta Pilots Fly Together, Retire Together?

Sun Aug 30, 2020 6:17 pm

catiii wrote:
CriticalPoint wrote:
davidjohnson6 wrote:
I would be somewhat wary of 2 commercial pilots in a medium or large airline flying a large proportion of their flights. Knowing there is an unforgiving second pair of eyes watching you keeps a pilot on their toes. Husband and wife flying together will (almost) always support each other in public, and it's too easy for them to get a little too lax in between check rides.

By all means fly together from time to time, but I would be very dubious about a married couple operating more than maybe 25% of their flights as a pair


It used to be you got a line built for the entire month and you flew with the same crew all month. Friends bid together all the time.

There’s a reason we are called professionals.......


Exactly. There were Multiple months in a row where I flew with the same guys.


Yeah seriously. What about small operators? With say, one aircraft and maybe 6-8 pilots. Think the guys flying the An-225 don't all know eachother? Our other niche outfits like some of the Twotter operations in Antarctica? As long as they have the type rating and are current, who cares.
 
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AirPacific747
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Re: Married Delta Pilots Fly Together, Retire Together?

Sun Aug 30, 2020 6:26 pm

Max Q wrote:
We had a married couple that flew together most of the time on the MD80 at Continental

She was the Captain and he was the FO, they were able to bid to fly together most of the time


The question is why would you do that?? :lol:

I have to admit that I often enjoyed my one week trips with double layovers away from home.. good to miss your loved ones at home from time to time..
 
deltairlines
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Re: Married Delta Pilots Fly Together, Retire Together?

Sun Aug 30, 2020 6:28 pm

davidjohnson6 wrote:
Professionals are human beings... and as human beings we make mistakes and are prone to get a little lazy or comfortable in our jobs. The 2nd pair of eyes watching you on a regular basis that isn't married to you and will, if necessary, speak out when a person screws up, goes some way to preventing that happening in the first place


They're flying the A330 out of JFK. The only A330 routes that I can think of out of that base that only had a captain and first officer were when there'd be the occasional West Coast trip (for a while, there was a daily A330 on JFK-LAX), and maybe DUB (and even DUB I think went with a three man crew). In the case of a three-man crew, they would always be in the flight deck from push back until reaching cruise, and then there would always be three in the flight deck starting from the top of descent all the way until the parking break is set at the gate.
 
davidjohnson6
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Re: Married Delta Pilots Fly Together, Retire Together?

Sun Aug 30, 2020 6:36 pm

There is a big difference between pilots who are friends and pilots who are close family. You can choose your friends, and whether to remain friends with them. It's a MUCH bigger deal to divorce a spouse or separate from a parent or child. Ultimately - do your loyalties lie with following SOP and ensuring the other pilot follows SOP... or do your loyalties lie with family ? There's a potential conflict of interest - maybe best resolved by avoiding close family flying with each other too much

It's far preferable all round if someone who makes a minor mistake is corrected quickly when the implications are minor, compared to the minor error festering into regular serious screw-up. Remember we're all humans, and we all make mistakes

If (in theory) you saw a friend doing incompetent landings on a regular basis, would you say anything about it to somebody, knowing they may get an invite to somebody's office soon ? Would you act the same way if it was your spouse, in the knowledge that you cannot avoid them when you go home from flying and they would know who spoke out ?
 
IAHFLYR
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Re: Married Delta Pilots Fly Together, Retire Together?

Sun Aug 30, 2020 7:18 pm

Max Q wrote:
We had a married couple that flew together most of the time on the MD80 at Continental

She was the Captain and he was the FO, they were able to bid to fly together most of the time


I'm fairly certain I know who you're speaking of. After you guys retired the 80's I believe they went to the 737 fleet.
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
jetblueguy22
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Re: Married Delta Pilots Fly Together, Retire Together?

Sun Aug 30, 2020 7:26 pm

davidjohnson6 wrote:
There is a big difference between pilots who are friends and pilots who are close family. You can choose your friends, and whether to remain friends with them. It's a MUCH bigger deal to divorce a spouse or separate from a parent or child. Ultimately - do your loyalties lie with following SOP and ensuring the other pilot follows SOP... or do your loyalties lie with family ? There's a potential conflict of interest - maybe best resolved by avoiding close family flying with each other too much

It's far preferable all round if someone who makes a minor mistake is corrected quickly when the implications are minor, compared to the minor error festering into regular serious screw-up. Remember we're all humans, and we all make mistakes

If (in theory) you saw a friend doing incompetent landings on a regular basis, would you say anything about it to somebody, knowing they may get an invite to somebody's office soon ? Would you act the same way if it was your spouse, in the knowledge that you cannot avoid them when you go home from flying and they would know who spoke out ?

I’d be ever more inclined to say something so my friend/family/spouse doesn’t kill himself/herself.

Not to mention, they’re flying the A330, you think their ability to be professional somehow was ignored by every other pilot they flew with over the last 30 years?
Look at sweatpants guy. This is a 90 million dollar aircraft, not a Tallahassee strip club
 
AA757223
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Re: Married Delta Pilots Fly Together, Retire Together?

Sun Aug 30, 2020 7:50 pm

davidjohnson6 wrote:
There is a big difference between pilots who are friends and pilots who are close family. You can choose your friends, and whether to remain friends with them. It's a MUCH bigger deal to divorce a spouse or separate from a parent or child. Ultimately - do your loyalties lie with following SOP and ensuring the other pilot follows SOP... or do your loyalties lie with family ? There's a potential conflict of interest - maybe best resolved by avoiding close family flying with each other too much

It's far preferable all round if someone who makes a minor mistake is corrected quickly when the implications are minor, compared to the minor error festering into regular serious screw-up. Remember we're all humans, and we all make mistakes

If (in theory) you saw a friend doing incompetent landings on a regular basis, would you say anything about it to somebody, knowing they may get an invite to somebody's office soon ? Would you act the same way if it was your spouse, in the knowledge that you cannot avoid them when you go home from flying and they would know who spoke out ?


Why don’t you put forth some case studies where the probable cause was related to the pilots being close friends or family? I’m not saying there isn’t a basis for your argument. Many accidents have been caused by one crew member not speaking up to the other. There are many husband/wife crewmember partnerships at the US majors. If there was any evidence to support the claim this was unsafe, it probably wouldn’t happen..?

I fly with close friends all the time, in a jet for work. We call each other out when we make mistakes and our professionalism is never affected by our friendship.
 
arcticcruiser
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Re: Married Delta Pilots Fly Together, Retire Together?

Sun Aug 30, 2020 7:59 pm

catiii wrote:

Exactly. There were Multiple months in a row where I flew with the same guys.


That could get really boring...
 
CriticalPoint
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Re: Married Delta Pilots Fly Together, Retire Together?

Sun Aug 30, 2020 8:54 pm

davidjohnson6 wrote:
There is a big difference between pilots who are friends and pilots who are close family. You can choose your friends, and whether to remain friends with them. It's a MUCH bigger deal to divorce a spouse or separate from a parent or child. Ultimately - do your loyalties lie with following SOP and ensuring the other pilot follows SOP... or do your loyalties lie with family ? There's a potential conflict of interest - maybe best resolved by avoiding close family flying with each other too much

It's far preferable all round if someone who makes a minor mistake is corrected quickly when the implications are minor, compared to the minor error festering into regular serious screw-up. Remember we're all humans, and we all make mistakes

If (in theory) you saw a friend doing incompetent landings on a regular basis, would you say anything about it to somebody, knowing they may get an invite to somebody's office soon ? Would you act the same way if it was your spouse, in the knowledge that you cannot avoid them when you go home from flying and they would know who spoke out ?


I think you have reached the bottom of your hole......but I could probably throw you some dynamite if you want to get deeper.
 
Longhornmaniac
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Re: Married Delta Pilots Fly Together, Retire Together?

Sun Aug 30, 2020 10:11 pm

davidjohnson6 wrote:
There is a big difference between pilots who are friends and pilots who are close family. You can choose your friends, and whether to remain friends with them. It's a MUCH bigger deal to divorce a spouse or separate from a parent or child. Ultimately - do your loyalties lie with following SOP and ensuring the other pilot follows SOP... or do your loyalties lie with family ? There's a potential conflict of interest - maybe best resolved by avoiding close family flying with each other too much

It's far preferable all round if someone who makes a minor mistake is corrected quickly when the implications are minor, compared to the minor error festering into regular serious screw-up. Remember we're all humans, and we all make mistakes

If (in theory) you saw a friend doing incompetent landings on a regular basis, would you say anything about it to somebody, knowing they may get an invite to somebody's office soon ? Would you act the same way if it was your spouse, in the knowledge that you cannot avoid them when you go home from flying and they would know who spoke out ?


You'd do well to quit while you're already behind. You have very little understanding of the dynamic in the cockpit, and your comments are downright offensive to the professionalism of these aviators. Just stop.
Cheers,
Cameron
 
davidjohnson6
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Re: Married Delta Pilots Fly Together, Retire Together?

Sun Aug 30, 2020 10:41 pm

Spoken like somebody who has seen plenty of conflicts of interest when people with a very close family relationship work together all the time with sub-optimal outcomes and has seen how this gets managed elsewhere
If you don't want to read what I think, you don't have to, but if you do want to respond to my comment then at least answer the point about how to manage potential conflict of interest, instead of criticising me personally
 
mhockey31091
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Re: Married Delta Pilots Fly Together, Retire Together?

Sun Aug 30, 2020 10:50 pm

davidjohnson6 wrote:
Spoken like somebody who has seen plenty of conflicts of interest when people with a very close family relationship work together all the time with sub-optimal outcomes and has seen how this gets managed elsewhere
If you don't want to read what I think, you don't have to, but if you do want to respond to my comment then at least answer the point about how to manage potential conflict of interest, instead of criticising me personally

How many times have you flown in the cockpit and understood the dynamic of CRM and how we communicate in the cockpit with coworkers?
 
jetblueguy22
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Re: Married Delta Pilots Fly Together, Retire Together?

Sun Aug 30, 2020 10:59 pm

davidjohnson6 wrote:
Spoken like somebody who has seen plenty of conflicts of interest when people with a very close family relationship work together all the time with sub-optimal outcomes and has seen how this gets managed elsewhere
If you don't want to read what I think, you don't have to, but if you do want to respond to my comment then at least answer the point about how to manage potential conflict of interest, instead of criticising me personally

Hard not to offer criticism when the idea is poorly thought out.

A flight deck environment is NOTHING like an office.
Look at sweatpants guy. This is a 90 million dollar aircraft, not a Tallahassee strip club
 
Sancho99504
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Re: Married Delta Pilots Fly Together, Retire Together?

Mon Aug 31, 2020 2:00 am

catiii wrote:
UPS757Pilot wrote:
devron wrote:

Did they have to or want to?


They both took the voluntary package.

And to add a little, Joe was 1 year from mandatory retirement while Margrit is 5 years away. They decided to take the generous package and give others the opportunity at being able to build a long, successful career as they had.
kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out-USMC
 
Antarius
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Re: Married Delta Pilots Fly Together, Retire Together?

Mon Aug 31, 2020 2:27 am

AA757223 wrote:
davidjohnson6 wrote:
There is a big difference between pilots who are friends and pilots who are close family. You can choose your friends, and whether to remain friends with them. It's a MUCH bigger deal to divorce a spouse or separate from a parent or child. Ultimately - do your loyalties lie with following SOP and ensuring the other pilot follows SOP... or do your loyalties lie with family ? There's a potential conflict of interest - maybe best resolved by avoiding close family flying with each other too much

It's far preferable all round if someone who makes a minor mistake is corrected quickly when the implications are minor, compared to the minor error festering into regular serious screw-up. Remember we're all humans, and we all make mistakes

If (in theory) you saw a friend doing incompetent landings on a regular basis, would you say anything about it to somebody, knowing they may get an invite to somebody's office soon ? Would you act the same way if it was your spouse, in the knowledge that you cannot avoid them when you go home from flying and they would know who spoke out ?


Why don’t you put forth some case studies where the probable cause was related to the pilots being close friends or family? I’m not saying there isn’t a basis for your argument. Many accidents have been caused by one crew member not speaking up to the other. There are many husband/wife crewmember partnerships at the US majors. If there was any evidence to support the claim this was unsafe, it probably wouldn’t happen..?

I fly with close friends all the time, in a jet for work. We call each other out when we make mistakes and our professionalism is never affected by our friendship.


This.

Let's pretend that there is an issue with flying with family for a minute. Surely there is some data to back up those issues?
2020: SFO DFW IAH HOU CLT MEX BIS MIA GUA ORD DTW LGA BOS LHR DUB BFS BHD STN OAK PHL ISP JFK SJC DEN SJU LAS TXL GDL
 
catiii
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Re: Married Delta Pilots Fly Together, Retire Together?

Mon Aug 31, 2020 2:31 am

Sancho99504 wrote:
catiii wrote:
UPS757Pilot wrote:
Did they have to or want to?


They both took the voluntary package.

And to add a little, Joe was 1 year from mandatory retirement while Margrit is 5 years away. They decided to take the generous package and give others the opportunity at being able to build a long, successful career as they had.


Very selfless act by them.
 
catiii
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Re: Married Delta Pilots Fly Together, Retire Together?

Mon Aug 31, 2020 2:36 am

davidjohnson6 wrote:
Spoken like somebody who has seen plenty of conflicts of interest when people with a very close family relationship work together all the time with sub-optimal outcomes and has seen how this gets managed elsewhere
If you don't want to read what I think, you don't have to, but if you do want to respond to my comment then at least answer the point about how to manage potential conflict of interest, instead of criticising me personally


I am criticizing you because you’re making generalized statements without obviously knowing anything about airline operations, pilot training, or CRM. If you want to come on here and post such obviously uninformed opinions, then don’t complain when you’re criticized for it. Whatever “close family relationship” drama you’ve allegedly seen elsewhere is with a high degree of certainty not comparable to anything going on in a cockpit. Have you ever flown in the cockpit of an airliner with a close friend, sibling, spouse, or family member as your other crew member?

I don’t need to “answer the point about how to manage potential conflict of interest” because the US airline industry has an unmatched record of safety, with dare I say thousands of buddy bids happening each year.
 
catiii
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Re: Married Delta Pilots Fly Together, Retire Together?

Mon Aug 31, 2020 2:42 am

arcticcruiser wrote:
catiii wrote:

Exactly. There were Multiple months in a row where I flew with the same guys.


That could get really boring...


Nah we had a good time. Small base on an aircraft leaving the fleet. Plus it was the last three man cockpit we had (excluding the ER).
 
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SuseJ772
Topic Author
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Re: Married Delta Pilots Fly Together, Retire Together?

Mon Aug 31, 2020 2:53 am

I never heard of buddy bid. That’s interesting. But I see it isn’t a given and likely was a latter in career thing when all the seniorities aligned. It also looks like a reason she didn’t move up to Captain. I’d gladly trade a 100k for that quality of life improvement.

Honestly, I think the family trade off is the only true downside of being a pilot. If I could fly with my wife every time (or most times), that would have been great.
Currently at PIE, requesting FWA >> >>
 
Sokes
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Re: Married Delta Pilots Fly Together, Retire Together?

Mon Aug 31, 2020 2:59 am

Longhornmaniac wrote:
davidjohnson6 wrote:
...
If (in theory) you saw a friend doing incompetent landings on a regular basis, would you say anything about it to somebody, knowing they may get an invite to somebody's office soon ? Would you act the same way if it was your spouse, in the knowledge that you cannot avoid them when you go home from flying and they would know who spoke out ?


You'd do well to quit while you're already behind. You have very little understanding of the dynamic in the cockpit, and your comments are downright offensive to the professionalism of these aviators. Just stop.

If David is wrong 99,9% of times he is still right.
Why is he criticized without contradicting evidence?

Anybody knows about Ignaz Semmelweiss?
In a hospital there were two maternity wards. There were no microscopes at that time. In the one maternity ward mothers' mortality was much higher. It was the ward students came in after studying on dead bodies. 1847 a friend of his cut himself while working on a dead body. That friend soon died.

Semmelweiss concluded there has to be something dangerous on dead bodies. Handwashing alone was not enough, but experiments with chemicals soon led to results. Mortality decreased from above 12% to below 3%. One day a patient had an infectious wound. Mortality jumped. Semmelweiss introduced the hand disinfection before each patient. Mortality decreased to 1,3%.

Even people like Virchow didn't accept the results. Doctors were outraged to be made responsible for mothers' deaths. Semmelweiss soon lost his job.

1861 he started writing to professors that if they don't teach students about hand disinfection he will publically declare them as murder.
1865 he was admitted to a mental hospital where he died two weeks later.
1963 he was exhumated. He had multiple fractures.

If a few pilots declare here that human psychology doesn't apply to them, I question that declaration.
Please argue why human psychology doesn't apply to pilots.
This is not 1865, social standing is not enough. Contradicting evidence is required.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
Sokes
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Re: Married Delta Pilots Fly Together, Retire Together?

Mon Aug 31, 2020 3:06 am

Antarius wrote:
Let's pretend that there is an issue with flying with family for a minute. Surely there is some data to back up those issues?

David has to present evidence that it isn't safe or you have to present evidence it is safe?
I am thinking of marriage with a sadist. Maybe airlines do manage to sort sadists out.
I see lot of possible conflicts.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
Antarius
Posts: 2533
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Re: Married Delta Pilots Fly Together, Retire Together?

Mon Aug 31, 2020 3:29 am

Sokes wrote:
Antarius wrote:
Let's pretend that there is an issue with flying with family for a minute. Surely there is some data to back up those issues?

David has to present evidence that it isn't safe or you have to present evidence it is safe?
I am thinking of marriage with a sadist. Maybe airlines do manage to sort sadists out.
I see lot of possible conflicts.


The US's aviation safety record speaks for itself (as do other parts of the world, but since we are focused on DL, looking at the US). As a result, if this was somehow dangerous, the onus is on presenting evidence of the danger. Proving a negative is impossible.

As for the point of marriage to sadists, these pilots weren't born flying together. They had to work their way up the seniority list for decades before having route choice. During those decades, they would have flown with countless pilots and co-pilots, all of whom were presumably not sadists. If these pilots really were a problem, could not handle CRM, could not communicate, had anger issues, did not listen - they would have been weeded out by then.

Finally, this couple bid to fly together. People who don't like their spouses and get to travel typically don't go out of their way to be with their spouse.
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FlyGuyNash
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Re: Married Delta Pilots Fly Together, Retire Together?

Mon Aug 31, 2020 3:42 am

SuseJ772 wrote:
I never heard of buddy bid. That’s interesting. But I see it isn’t a given and likely was a latter in career thing when all the seniorities aligned. It also looks like a reason she didn’t move up to Captain. I’d gladly trade a 100k for that quality of life improvement.

Honestly, I think the family trade off is the only true downside of being a pilot. If I could fly with my wife every time (or most times), that would have been great.


She was the #1 FO in NYC on the 330 and so she would just bid to fly with her husband and they would get the exact same schedule every month.

For anyone who thinks these 2 professionals would ever let something personal come into the cockpit is crazy. These 2 folks were some of the nicest and most professional pilots we had at Delta and they will surly be missed.
 
Sokes
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Re: Married Delta Pilots Fly Together, Retire Together?

Mon Aug 31, 2020 3:47 am

Antarius wrote:
The US's aviation safety record speaks for itself (as do other parts of the world, but since we are focused on DL, looking at the US). As a result, if this was somehow dangerous, the onus is on presenting evidence of the danger. Proving a negative is impossible.

As for the point of marriage to sadists, these pilots weren't born flying together. They had to work their way up the seniority list for decades before having route choice. During those decades, they would have flown with countless pilots and co-pilots, all of whom were presumably not sadists. If these pilots really were a problem, could not handle CRM, could not communicate, had anger issues, did not listen - they would have been weeded out by then.

Finally, this couple bid to fly together. People who don't like their spouses and get to travel typically don't go out of their way to be with their spouse.

Well, statistics should proof couples aren't significant less safe than random combinations.
I already suspected it to be safe, otherwise airlines wouldn't allow. I also suspect that airlines would not allow a couple where one pilot joined recently.

Considering there are hardly suicides I anyway suspect that airlines have people working for them that have extreme good judgement of character.

I have no problem to agree to your post. It's good evidence. But that's the point.

I wonder if same is true in all societies.
Different issue, but I wonder if not at least one pilot should be from a liberal society.
Same thing I feel for teachers for adolescents.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
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ua900
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Re: Married Delta Pilots Fly Together, Retire Together?

Mon Aug 31, 2020 3:51 am

SuseJ772 wrote:
https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/married-delta-pilots-retire-early-covid-19-trnd/index.html

This is a pretty cool way to be a pilot if it as the article described it. But it got me slightly curious. I was always under the belief that Captains and First Officers were always a unique pairing, rarely flying with with same person twice. It sounds like these two flew together all the time (always?).

1) Is that possible?

2) If so, what are the mechanisms in place for that to happen (how do you actually schedule by picking your First Officer?)

3) Anyone here have some like this through their career?


Good for them. As a frequent flyer, it's my impression that crews engage in buddy bidding more frequently than most people realize, though given the seniority system it likely wouldn't be much fun if one person was really senior and the other one wasn't. Maybe that explains why they didn't do that initially.

1) Evidently, though perhaps not *all* the time. Things still come up I'm sure.

2) Buddy bid and talking to each other, sample for UA FAs here and I'm sure pilots at DL will have something similar in place: https://unitedafa.org/news/2018/9/12/buddy-bidding and here https://unitedafa.org/news/2019/7/17/buddy-bidding

3) I've heard airline crews mention it here and there, though frequently not with people they were married to ;-) Not judging...

AirPacific747 wrote:
Max Q wrote:
We had a married couple that flew together most of the time on the MD80 at Continental

She was the Captain and he was the FO, they were able to bid to fly together most of the time


The question is why would you do that?? :lol:

I have to admit that I often enjoyed my one week trips with double layovers away from home.. good to miss your loved ones at home from time to time..


And that too, most couples have time apart that does wonders for them ;-)

Worked for one boss who wouldn't even do a Christmas party with their spouse, let alone hang out with them on the weekends.

catiii wrote:
UPS757Pilot wrote:
devron wrote:

Did they have to or want to?


They both took the voluntary package.


Kudos, most people won't. Especially with five years left as opposed to one year left. True love right there, congrats!
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777Mech
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Re: Married Delta Pilots Fly Together, Retire Together?

Mon Aug 31, 2020 4:17 am

davidjohnson6 wrote:
Professionals are human beings... and as human beings we make mistakes and are prone to get a little lazy or comfortable in our jobs. The 2nd pair of eyes watching you on a regular basis that isn't married to you and will, if necessary, speak out when a person screws up, goes some way to preventing that happening in the first place


You must not be married. Women will let you know you screwed up. Always. :)
 
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SuseJ772
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Re: Married Delta Pilots Fly Together, Retire Together?

Mon Aug 31, 2020 12:34 pm

FlyGuyNash wrote:
SuseJ772 wrote:
I never heard of buddy bid. That’s interesting. But I see it isn’t a given and likely was a latter in career thing when all the seniorities aligned. It also looks like a reason she didn’t move up to Captain. I’d gladly trade a 100k for that quality of life improvement.

Honestly, I think the family trade off is the only true downside of being a pilot. If I could fly with my wife every time (or most times), that would have been great.


She was the #1 FO in NYC on the 330 and so she would just bid to fly with her husband and they would get the exact same schedule every month.

For anyone who thinks these 2 professionals would ever let something personal come into the cockpit is crazy. These 2 folks were some of the nicest and most professional pilots we had at Delta and they will surly be missed.

That’s great. It sounds like they were awesome people in their flying and in how they handled retirement. Bummer to not have them anymore.

In addition to what you and others have said about being professionals in the cockpit - which is true - the other thing people are missing is this is a 35 year FO. That is essentially like having two captain-level experience on every flight. I would have had no reservations about stepping on to a husband/wife team even with out that experience level, but ESPECIALLY with a combined 75 years flying experience, I doubt very few flights have that combination between both on the flight deck.
Currently at PIE, requesting FWA >> >>
 
Longhornmaniac
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Re: Married Delta Pilots Fly Together, Retire Together?

Mon Aug 31, 2020 4:13 pm

Sokes wrote:
Longhornmaniac wrote:
davidjohnson6 wrote:
...
If (in theory) you saw a friend doing incompetent landings on a regular basis, would you say anything about it to somebody, knowing they may get an invite to somebody's office soon ? Would you act the same way if it was your spouse, in the knowledge that you cannot avoid them when you go home from flying and they would know who spoke out ?


You'd do well to quit while you're already behind. You have very little understanding of the dynamic in the cockpit, and your comments are downright offensive to the professionalism of these aviators. Just stop.

If David is wrong 99,9% of times he is still right.
Why is he criticized without contradicting evidence?

Anybody knows about Ignaz Semmelweiss?
In a hospital there were two maternity wards. There were no microscopes at that time. In the one maternity ward mothers' mortality was much higher. It was the ward students came in after studying on dead bodies. 1847 a friend of his cut himself while working on a dead body. That friend soon died.

Semmelweiss concluded there has to be something dangerous on dead bodies. Handwashing alone was not enough, but experiments with chemicals soon led to results. Mortality decreased from above 12% to below 3%. One day a patient had an infectious wound. Mortality jumped. Semmelweiss introduced the hand disinfection before each patient. Mortality decreased to 1,3%.

Even people like Virchow didn't accept the results. Doctors were outraged to be made responsible for mothers' deaths. Semmelweiss soon lost his job.

1861 he started writing to professors that if they don't teach students about hand disinfection he will publically declare them as murder.
1865 he was admitted to a mental hospital where he died two weeks later.
1963 he was exhumated. He had multiple fractures.

If a few pilots declare here that human psychology doesn't apply to them, I question that declaration.
Please argue why human psychology doesn't apply to pilots.
This is not 1865, social standing is not enough. Contradicting evidence is required.


That's a lot of words to say you don't have any idea, either. You'd do well to learn about burden of proof. Starting with a null hypothesis that these two were a danger to themselves and their passengers, in the face of extraordinary evidence to the contrary in the form of aviation safety data, requires a lot more than an anecdote of questionable applicability to this scenario. It's not on me to provide evidence, it's on you. YOU have to provide evidence that certain relationships between pilots lead in a statistically significant way to unsafe outcomes. There are a LOT of suppositions in your guesswork that lack practical connections. Perhaps they exist theoretically, but applying it to actual practices, you've not remotely succeeded in causally linking them.

No one is arguing that pilots do not err, nor that we're not affected by the broadly-stroked "human psychology." We are all human, and we all make mistakes. There's a prevalent adage in aviation that there's no such thing as a perfect flight. We can always do better. But your insinuation that a spouse wouldn't speak up if a safety-of-flight issue arose is laughable at the very best, not the least of which because it's a crewed environment and what happens to one happens to both. If I fly with a friend, I feel *more* emboldened to speak up because I already have a report with that individual and am not worried about stepping on someone's toes. I also feel like the plane is in a safer default state with two people who know each other well. There's lots of synchronicity when two friends fly that doesn't always happen when you're flying with a new pilot each trip.

Look, I get it. There is an awful lot about aviation that happens behind a closed door. A lot that passengers/enthusiasts don't see and can only draw on their other experience for comparison. What you are describing is not how aviation works. There are numerous professionals in this thread telling you as much. This has no direct bearing on me, so it's not hurting my ego or anything. I check my ego at the door when I step on the plane. I have a job to do, which is to get passengers safely and punctually from point A to point B. Embedded within is a set of rules, regulations, standard operating practices, and techniques which all contribute to my getting the job done safely. The same is true for every pilot. Deviate too far from those and you'll likely have problems with your airline, and, even more primarily, your fellow crewmembers. There are always multiple ways to accomplish a flight safely and stay well within the bounds and guidelines provided by the set of things listed above. And admittedly, it's somewhat routine to see things on the flight deck that push those limits, but it's very seldom to the detriment of the overall situation.

Again, listen to the pros in here. There are so many layers that have to be broken through before the things you are describing may come into play. In the meantime, the safety record at the airlines stands on its own. There is no legitimate justification for a fear of anything safety-related in commercial aviation in the western world. Certainly not cockpit dynamics between two relatives.
Cheers,
Cameron
 
Sokes
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Re: Married Delta Pilots Fly Together, Retire Together?

Mon Aug 31, 2020 4:42 pm

Longhornmaniac wrote:
Starting with a null hypothesis that these two were a danger to themselves and their passengers, in the face of extraordinary evidence to the contrary in the form of aviation safety data, requires a lot more than an anecdote of questionable applicability to this scenario. It's not on me to provide evidence, it's on you. YOU have to provide evidence that certain relationships between pilots lead in a statistically significant way to unsafe outcomes. There are a LOT of suppositions in your guesswork that lack practical connections. Perhaps they exist theoretically, but applying it to actual practices, you've not remotely succeeded in causally linking them.

No one is arguing that pilots do not err, nor that we're not affected by the broadly-stroked "human psychology." We are all human, and we all make mistakes. There's a prevalent adage in aviation that there's no such thing as a perfect flight. We can always do better. But your insinuation that a spouse wouldn't speak up if a safety-of-flight issue arose is laughable at the very best
...
Look, I get it. There is an awful lot about aviation that happens behind a closed door. A lot that passengers/enthusiasts don't see and can only draw on their other experience for comparison. What you are describing is not how aviation works. There are numerous professionals in this thread telling you as much.

There were a lot of professionals who told that the MAX crashed because of developing country pilots.

Both should be able to support their view with statistics. I admit I can't.

I don't speak of a particular couple.

I wonder anyway how an industry gets such a high level of teamwork. I suppose those unsuitable are sorted out early? Do you get a lot of training how to get socially smarter?

Apparently flying couples are safe. But I would attribute that more to airline policy than to couple dynamics.
Of course I can only assume.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
Longhornmaniac
Posts: 3145
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 2:33 pm

Re: Married Delta Pilots Fly Together, Retire Together?

Mon Aug 31, 2020 4:54 pm

Sokes wrote:
Longhornmaniac wrote:
Starting with a null hypothesis that these two were a danger to themselves and their passengers, in the face of extraordinary evidence to the contrary in the form of aviation safety data, requires a lot more than an anecdote of questionable applicability to this scenario. It's not on me to provide evidence, it's on you. YOU have to provide evidence that certain relationships between pilots lead in a statistically significant way to unsafe outcomes. There are a LOT of suppositions in your guesswork that lack practical connections. Perhaps they exist theoretically, but applying it to actual practices, you've not remotely succeeded in causally linking them.

No one is arguing that pilots do not err, nor that we're not affected by the broadly-stroked "human psychology." We are all human, and we all make mistakes. There's a prevalent adage in aviation that there's no such thing as a perfect flight. We can always do better. But your insinuation that a spouse wouldn't speak up if a safety-of-flight issue arose is laughable at the very best
...
Look, I get it. There is an awful lot about aviation that happens behind a closed door. A lot that passengers/enthusiasts don't see and can only draw on their other experience for comparison. What you are describing is not how aviation works. There are numerous professionals in this thread telling you as much.

There were a lot of professionals who told that the MAX crashed because of developing country pilots.

Both should be able to support their view with statistics. I admit I can't.

I don't speak of a particular couple.

I wonder anyway how an industry gets such a high level of teamwork. I suppose those unsuitable are sorted out early? Do you get a lot of training how to get socially smarter?

Apparently flying couples are safe. But I would attribute that more to airline policy than to couple dynamics.
Of course I can only assume.


Crew Resource Management (CRM) has become an extremely important emphasis after the slew of aviation accidents in the 1970s-80s. Pilot error is at least a contributing factor in most every airline accident. Lots of very smart people got together begin developing what has become CRM as a tool to provide all pilots in a crewed environment. There is considerable time spent during training on working as a part of a crew. We spend time discussing incidents in the past, strategies that help mitigate the issues that led to those, and ways to avoid them altogether. Division of labor, clear communication, etc. Pilots that can't pass muster with those sorts of things won't succeed in the crew environment. So the answer to your questions is yes. We're highly specialized in thinking not just for ourselves, but together. Very, very little is done on the flight deck without confirming with/advising the other pilot.
Cheers,
Cameron
 
FGITD
Posts: 1046
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Re: Married Delta Pilots Fly Together, Retire Together?

Mon Aug 31, 2020 4:57 pm

Sokes wrote:

I wonder anyway how an industry gets such a high level of teamwork. I suppose those unsuitable are sorted out early? Do you get a lot of training how to get socially smarter?

Apparently flying couples are safe. But I would attribute that more to airline policy than to couple dynamics.
Of course I can only assume.


The industry reached that level because a lot of pilots and passengers died.

It's not a matter of being socially smarter, or more in tune with the people around you.

Everything they do is meticulously laid out, planned, checked, and done in a very specific way. And it's done that way every time, regardless of who you're sitting next to.
 
Lootess
Posts: 497
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Re: Married Delta Pilots Fly Together, Retire Together?

Mon Aug 31, 2020 5:42 pm

There have been amazing airliner saves due to exceptional CRM like Cathay Pacific 780, and Qantas 32. Shining examples of the cockpit working together for a solution.
 
CriticalPoint
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Re: Married Delta Pilots Fly Together, Retire Together?

Mon Aug 31, 2020 6:33 pm

Here’s the thing, when something goes wrong we have SOPs to address it, not much wiggle room there. When something goes wrong we have a team to consult: Dispatch, Maintenace, Fleet, Manufacture, Medlink, Flight Attendants other crew members. With all those resources and tools a marital spat is not going to end in tragedy.

When things get REALLY bad and a split second decision is life and death survival will take over and it doesn’t matter how much you love or hate the person next to you.

Flying a jet is not the same as working on the same floor or department of an office. We intentionally train the emotion out of pilots, this is why people always are shocked about how calm a pilot seems under stress. EX the SW CA who lost a passenger due to an uncontained engine failure.
 
flyingcat
Posts: 530
Joined: Tue May 29, 2007 10:33 am

Re: Married Delta Pilots Fly Together, Retire Together?

Mon Aug 31, 2020 6:40 pm

First I've heard of this and definitely an outlier.

Commercial piloting is an occupation with one of the highest divorce rates, so its commendable that they've been able to enjoy layovers and truly have time together.

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