Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
Lootess
Posts: 497
Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 6:15 am

Re: Married Delta Pilots Fly Together, Retire Together?

Mon Aug 31, 2020 6:57 pm

I don't think it's an outlier, having top-of-the-line experienced A330 pilots in both chairs is a plus. They probably got along real well with check pilots and relief crews being solely on that wide body.
 
catiii
Posts: 3611
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:18 am

Re: Married Delta Pilots Fly Together, Retire Together?

Mon Aug 31, 2020 7:31 pm

Sokes wrote:
Apparently flying couples are safe. But I would attribute that more to airline policy than to couple dynamics.
Of course I can only assume.


And you know what they say when you "assume" right?
 
AA757223
Posts: 8
Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2011 12:09 am

Re: Married Delta Pilots Fly Together, Retire Together?

Mon Aug 31, 2020 7:56 pm

davidjohnson6 wrote:
Spoken like somebody who has seen plenty of conflicts of interest when people with a very close family relationship work together all the time with sub-optimal outcomes and has seen how this gets managed elsewhere
If you don't want to read what I think, you don't have to, but if you do want to respond to my comment then at least answer the point about how to manage potential conflict of interest, instead of criticising me personally


Well, you took a beautiful thing and suggested, without basis, that it was somehow wrong.

To answer your question: how to manage potential conflict of interest in the flight deck? This goes back to basic Crew Resource Management. Regardless of two pilots’ relationship, bringing up a safety hazard is a delicate subject. How do I bring up safety hazards? I voice my concern in non-confrontational ways (at first). “John, hows this looking to you? I really don’t like the way that cloud looks...” or whatever etc etc

How would I do it if it were my wife flying? Same way. If something happened that I felt was unsafe during flight, I would correct it. Then after getting to the gate I would debrief her. If we were married maybe I’d wait to get to the hotel room to debrief her, who knows? Pilots usually know their weaknesses and every time I’ve debriefed an FO, they’ve responded with, “yeah I know I’ve just been struggling with crosswind technique.... yadayada any tips Id much appreciate.”

Anyway long winded answer but really I don’t think much conflict of interest exists in this job unless the husband or wife is trying to smuggle drugs on the side LOL
 
User avatar
SuseJ772
Topic Author
Posts: 1001
Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:13 am

Re: Married Delta Pilots Fly Together, Retire Together?

Mon Aug 31, 2020 10:22 pm

flyingcat wrote:
First I've heard of this and definitely an outlier.

Commercial piloting is an occupation with one of the highest divorce rates, so its commendable that they've been able to enjoy layovers and truly have time together.


You're right about that. It was honestly probably the single biggest reason I didn't become a pilot.
Currently at PIE, requesting FWA >> >>
 
User avatar
SuseJ772
Topic Author
Posts: 1001
Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:13 am

Re: Married Delta Pilots Fly Together, Retire Together?

Mon Aug 31, 2020 10:24 pm

Lootess wrote:
I don't think it's an outlier, having top-of-the-line experienced A330 pilots in both chairs is a plus. They probably got along real well with check pilots and relief crews being solely on that wide body.


I think flyingcat was saying married couples flying together is an outlier, as in, it happens very rarely. Not that it is an outlier in the negative sense.
Currently at PIE, requesting FWA >> >>
 
User avatar
SuseJ772
Topic Author
Posts: 1001
Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:13 am

Re: Married Delta Pilots Fly Together, Retire Together?

Mon Aug 31, 2020 10:27 pm

AA757223 wrote:
davidjohnson6 wrote:
Spoken like somebody who has seen plenty of conflicts of interest when people with a very close family relationship work together all the time with sub-optimal outcomes and has seen how this gets managed elsewhere
If you don't want to read what I think, you don't have to, but if you do want to respond to my comment then at least answer the point about how to manage potential conflict of interest, instead of criticising me personally


Well, you took a beautiful thing and suggested, without basis, that it was somehow wrong.

I agree. When I started this I thought this was going to be a wonderful discussion about a great way to take the really only downside of being a pilot out of the equation. Then it turned into this is it safe to fly with your spouse absurdity.

AA757223 wrote:
How do I bring up safety hazards? I voice my concern in non-confrontational ways (at first). “John, hows this looking to you? I really don’t like the way that cloud looks...” or whatever etc etc


I feel like I would have benefited from CRM training for just life in general. :)
Currently at PIE, requesting FWA >> >>
 
Sokes
Posts: 1880
Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:48 pm

Re: Married Delta Pilots Fly Together, Retire Together?

Mon Aug 31, 2020 11:23 pm

Longhornmaniac wrote:
Crew Resource Management (CRM) has become an extremely important emphasis after the slew of aviation accidents in the 1970s-80s.
....

Interesting.
I assume to have control over own emotions is one requirement for becoming pilot.
But why would pilots have higher divorce rates with this ability?
You think the captain of the Tenerife disaster would be sorted out already in training today?

We have a discussion in non aviation about the echo chamber. I said thinking needs training.

Nice slogan to advertise psychotherapy:
"Learn to think like a pilot."
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
Sokes
Posts: 1880
Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:48 pm

Re: Married Delta Pilots Fly Together, Retire Together?

Mon Aug 31, 2020 11:29 pm

catiii wrote:
Sokes wrote:
Apparently flying couples are safe. But I would attribute that more to airline policy than to couple dynamics.
Of course I can only assume.


And you know what they say when you "assume" right?

Point taken.
Nevertheless it became an interesting discussion about crew training.

If one pilot is known to be a bit difficult, but still at a tolerable level, would the airline allow him/ her to fly with partner?
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
johns624
Posts: 2814
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

Re: Married Delta Pilots Fly Together, Retire Together?

Mon Aug 31, 2020 11:31 pm

Sokes wrote:
I assume to have control over own emotions is one requirement for becoming pilot.
But why would pilots have higher divorce rates with this ability?
Maybe being away from home for close to half the time for years on end?
 
stratosphere
Posts: 1865
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2007 12:45 pm

Re: Married Delta Pilots Fly Together, Retire Together?

Mon Aug 31, 2020 11:38 pm

SuseJ772 wrote:
I never heard of buddy bid. That’s interesting. But I see it isn’t a given and likely was a latter in career thing when all the seniorities aligned. It also looks like a reason she didn’t move up to Captain. I’d gladly trade a 100k for that quality of life improvement.

Honestly, I think the family trade off is the only true downside of being a pilot. If I could fly with my wife every time (or most times), that would have been great.


Nothing really unusual about this. They had an article not long ago of a mother/daughter 757 crew also Delta and another daughter is also a pilot at Delta.
 
Sokes
Posts: 1880
Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:48 pm

Re: Married Delta Pilots Fly Together, Retire Together?

Mon Aug 31, 2020 11:46 pm

johns624 wrote:
Sokes wrote:
I assume to have control over own emotions is one requirement for becoming pilot.
But why would pilots have higher divorce rates with this ability?
Maybe being away from home for close to half the time for years on end?

And that's a problem because it gives the chance for adultery or because some people are unhappy if they are three days without partner?

I like travelling. The journey is the destination. Sounds great to me.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
catiii
Posts: 3611
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:18 am

Re: Married Delta Pilots Fly Together, Retire Together?

Mon Aug 31, 2020 11:51 pm

Sokes wrote:
catiii wrote:
Sokes wrote:
Apparently flying couples are safe. But I would attribute that more to airline policy than to couple dynamics.
Of course I can only assume.


And you know what they say when you "assume" right?

Point taken.
Nevertheless it became an interesting discussion about crew training.

If one pilot is known to be a bit difficult, but still at a tolerable level, would the airline allow him/ her to fly with partner?


You’re using terms that aren’t defined. There’s no such thing as “difficult” or “tolerable” when it comes to proficiency.

Man I miss the paywall on this site.
 
catiii
Posts: 3611
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:18 am

Re: Married Delta Pilots Fly Together, Retire Together?

Mon Aug 31, 2020 11:54 pm

stratosphere wrote:
SuseJ772 wrote:
I never heard of buddy bid. That’s interesting. But I see it isn’t a given and likely was a latter in career thing when all the seniorities aligned. It also looks like a reason she didn’t move up to Captain. I’d gladly trade a 100k for that quality of life improvement.

Honestly, I think the family trade off is the only true downside of being a pilot. If I could fly with my wife every time (or most times), that would have been great.


Nothing really unusual about this. They had an article not long ago of a mother/daughter 757 crew also Delta and another daughter is also a pilot at Delta.


There are a ton of parent/kid crews at DL.

A ton.
 
catiii
Posts: 3611
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:18 am

Re: Married Delta Pilots Fly Together, Retire Together?

Mon Aug 31, 2020 11:54 pm

Sokes wrote:
johns624 wrote:
Sokes wrote:
I assume to have control over own emotions is one requirement for becoming pilot.
But why would pilots have higher divorce rates with this ability?
Maybe being away from home for close to half the time for years on end?

And that's a problem because it gives the chance for adultery or because some people are unhappy if they are three days without partner?


What do you think?
 
johns624
Posts: 2814
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

Re: Married Delta Pilots Fly Together, Retire Together?

Mon Aug 31, 2020 11:59 pm

Sokes wrote:
johns624 wrote:
Sokes wrote:
I assume to have control over own emotions is one requirement for becoming pilot.
But why would pilots have higher divorce rates with this ability?
Maybe being away from home for close to half the time for years on end?

And that's a problem because it gives the chance for adultery or because some people are unhappy if they are three days without partner?

I like travelling. The journey is the destination. Sounds great to me.
You still don't understand. It has very little to do with adultery. It does have to do with not being home for special events and holidays. It does have to do with the spouse having to be the only parent for a lot of the time. Traveling and being a pilot are two entirely different things. You're not sightseeing. You're getting in late and leaving early the next day. You're working on the plane, not dozing. It's a job, not a vacation or sightseeing trip. Think of all the things you can do when you get home from your job in the evening...grocery shopping, laundry, cutting the lawn, etc, etc. When you're a pilot, you have to squeeze them all into the 2-3 days at a time that you're home, before leaving for another 3-4 day trip. Yes, things get easier as you get seniority, but that's many years down the road.
 
dstblj52
Posts: 506
Joined: Tue Nov 19, 2019 8:38 pm

Re: Married Delta Pilots Fly Together, Retire Together?

Tue Sep 01, 2020 12:00 am

catiii wrote:
Sokes wrote:
johns624 wrote:
Maybe being away from home for close to half the time for years on end?

And that's a problem because it gives the chance for adultery or because some people are unhappy if they are three days without partner?


What do you think?

It makes adultery something that A happens more often and B is perceived more often even when its not happening, its also a challenging lifestyle for the whole family especially for people who don't live in base who are generally junior and around the time they are starting to form families.
 
Sokes
Posts: 1880
Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:48 pm

Re: Married Delta Pilots Fly Together, Retire Together?

Tue Sep 01, 2020 12:00 am

catiii wrote:
Sokes wrote:
johns624 wrote:
Maybe being away from home for close to half the time for years on end?

And that's a problem because it gives the chance for adultery or because some people are unhappy if they are three days without partner?


What do you think?

You know what they say about assumptions.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
Sokes
Posts: 1880
Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:48 pm

Re: Married Delta Pilots Fly Together, Retire Together?

Tue Sep 01, 2020 12:02 am

catiii wrote:
You’re using terms that aren’t defined. There’s no such thing as “difficult” or “tolerable” when it comes to proficiency.

Man I miss the paywall on this site.

How do you explain the Tenerife disaster?
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
catiii
Posts: 3611
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:18 am

Re: Married Delta Pilots Fly Together, Retire Together?

Tue Sep 01, 2020 12:32 am

Sokes wrote:
catiii wrote:
Sokes wrote:
And that's a problem because it gives the chance for adultery or because some people are unhappy if they are three days without partner?


What do you think?

You know what they say about assumptions.


I didn’t make an assumption. I asked you what you thought.

If anyone made the assumption it’s you.
 
catiii
Posts: 3611
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:18 am

Re: Married Delta Pilots Fly Together, Retire Together?

Tue Sep 01, 2020 12:34 am

Sokes wrote:
catiii wrote:
You’re using terms that aren’t defined. There’s no such thing as “difficult” or “tolerable” when it comes to proficiency.

Man I miss the paywall on this site.

How do you explain the Tenerife disaster?


What does a 43 year old accident have to do with anything?
 
Lootess
Posts: 497
Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 6:15 am

Re: Married Delta Pilots Fly Together, Retire Together?

Tue Sep 01, 2020 1:15 am

catiii wrote:
Sokes wrote:
catiii wrote:
You’re using terms that aren’t defined. There’s no such thing as “difficult” or “tolerable” when it comes to proficiency.

Man I miss the paywall on this site.

How do you explain the Tenerife disaster?


What does a 43 year old accident have to do with anything?


Difficult proficiency was certainly a major factor in the Tenerife disaster.

One thing was controller usage of the word Takeoff was changed after the accident, to now only when the actual clearance is given.
 
cschleic
Posts: 1816
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 10:47 pm

Re: Married Delta Pilots Fly Together, Retire Together?

Tue Sep 01, 2020 2:03 am

catiii wrote:
Sokes wrote:
catiii wrote:
You’re using terms that aren’t defined. There’s no such thing as “difficult” or “tolerable” when it comes to proficiency.

Man I miss the paywall on this site.

How do you explain the Tenerife disaster?


What does a 43 year old accident have to do with anything?


The poster is changing the subject when faced with a fact or objection that isn't his / her desired result, and regularly ends posts with a question to keep the argument going. Better not to engage on their terms, including the belief that pilots who are too close personally are dangerous, since, among other things, it gets off topic and simply continues like this.

As for the couple at Delta, it's a great story. Sounds like they've had good, successful careers.
Last edited by cschleic on Tue Sep 01, 2020 2:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
User avatar
atcsundevil
Moderator
Posts: 4299
Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2010 12:22 pm

Re: Married Delta Pilots Fly Together, Retire Together?

Tue Sep 01, 2020 1:00 pm

If users aren't interested in this discussion, then they are not compelled to comment. Please contribute something to the discussion; otherwise, please find a new topic.

✈️ atcsundevil
 
Sokes
Posts: 1880
Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:48 pm

Re: Married Delta Pilots Fly Together, Retire Together?

Tue Sep 01, 2020 3:06 pm

cschleic wrote:
The poster is changing the subject when faced with a fact or objection that isn't his / her desired result, and regularly ends posts with a question to keep the argument going. Better not to engage on their terms, including the belief that pilots who are too close personally are dangerous, since, among other things, it gets off topic and simply continues like this.

As for the couple at Delta, it's a great story. Sounds like they've had good, successful careers.

While I indeed get posts deleted for being of topic, I don't think I'm off topic this time. Topic is couples flying together. It doesn't say if it's about impact on the relationship or flight safety.

If you read the topic again you will see that I agree with people if they are right. I did it twice in this topic.

The style of conversation with questions is called Socratic dialogue. Some people dislike it. You are free to put me on your foe list.

To keep the argument going:
What is wrong with a continued discussion?
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
Sokes
Posts: 1880
Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:48 pm

Re: Married Delta Pilots Fly Together, Retire Together?

Tue Sep 01, 2020 3:14 pm

Lootess wrote:
catiii wrote:
Sokes wrote:
How do you explain the Tenerife disaster?


What does a 43 year old accident have to do with anything?


Difficult proficiency was certainly a major factor in the Tenerife disaster.

One thing was controller usage of the word Takeoff was changed after the accident, to now only when the actual clearance is given.

IIRC the pilot lost patients and the copilot objected.
But o.k., the argument would be more convincing if it had to be ten years back.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
User avatar
SilverwingSpttr
Posts: 30
Joined: Wed May 03, 2017 3:07 pm

Re: Married Delta Pilots Fly Together, Retire Together?

Tue Sep 01, 2020 3:38 pm

Well I thought this was going to be a positive thread. Unfortunately it turned bad pretty quickly. I've chatted with Joe and Margrit and they're both good people, and very skilled pilots. I've asked both questions about flying, Delta, and the A330 in particular and they've always been happy to chat and share their knowledge.

I think people make a lot of assumptions about other's relationships. I know a few father-son pilot teams that fly together regularly, without issue as well. Good pilots are good pilots.
_____
@SilverwingSpotter IG / Flickr / YouTube / Twitter
PPL
A306, A319, A320, A321, A332, A333, A346, A388, B712, B732, B733, B734, B73G, B738, B739, B744, B752, B753, B762, B763, B764, B772, B77L, B788, C172, C208, DC-3, DC-10, MD-11, MD-81, MD-82
 
flymia
Posts: 7127
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2001 6:33 am

Re: Married Delta Pilots Fly Together, Retire Together?

Tue Sep 01, 2020 4:11 pm

What in the world happened to this thread what a complete joke of a conversation.

Anyway, these two pilots were pretty well known on instagram too. Both retired early given the COVID slow down and took early out packages. The husband had about two years left and the wife a few more. Both are extremely senior, one said the wife was the #1 FO in NYC, so it would be easy to match schedules.

They are a great follow in Instagram, will miss their trans Atlantic trip post.

And, yes. There are both known as fantastic pilots flying together often and safely. There are a few pilot couples at the same airlines that I have seen on social media. All reaching their destinations fine.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 20328
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: Married Delta Pilots Fly Together, Retire Together?

Wed Sep 02, 2020 2:49 am

Delete
Winter is coming.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos