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LAXintl
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Gogo in-flight internet business sold to Intelsat

Mon Aug 31, 2020 9:33 pm

Loss-making Inflight internet provider Gogo finally throws in the towel selling its commercial aviation business to Luxembourg based satellite operator Intelsat for $400mil.
Gogo should retain its business aviation unit.

Interesting to note Intelsat is itself filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy in May, says the purchase will help it pivot away from its traditional business.

https://paxex.aero/2020/08/intelsat-to- ... 0-million/
https://reorg.com/americas-intelsat-pro ... quisition/
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
DLASFlyer
Posts: 183
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 4:06 pm

Re: Gogo in-flight internet business sold to Intelsat

Mon Aug 31, 2020 9:45 pm

Bankrupt company buys company which has never made a dime. Oh 2020.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 8529
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Gogo in-flight internet business sold to Intelsat

Mon Aug 31, 2020 9:54 pm

Was Gogo already using Intelsat satellite capacity, anyway?
 
jetblueguy22
Posts: 3501
Joined: Thu Nov 29, 2007 12:26 am

Re: Gogo in-flight internet business sold to Intelsat

Mon Aug 31, 2020 9:55 pm

Until GoGo can offer ground level bandwidth where you can stream Netflix/Hulu etc its always going to struggle. People expect speed and it’s hit or miss right now
Look at sweatpants guy. This is a 90 million dollar aircraft, not a Tallahassee strip club
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 8529
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Gogo in-flight internet business sold to Intelsat

Mon Aug 31, 2020 10:07 pm

Gogo really has three (or four) systems in the air with radically different speeds:

2Ku

Ku

ATG-4 cell-based services

original ATG systems

The last two are god-awful slow. 2Ku is actually pretty good and that's what you'll find on DL narrowbodies other than the 717, and on the newest widebodies. (With other carriers I can't say.)
 
SocalApproach
Posts: 272
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2013 1:08 pm

Re: Gogo in-flight internet business sold to Intelsat

Mon Aug 31, 2020 10:58 pm

I always found it weird how much it cost for inflight wifi which is most of the time too slow to do anything but browse and check emails. Plenty of airlines provide internet now for passengers to text for free (AS/DL/B6/WN). Meanwhile mcdonalds and starbucks have free internet and I was surprised how fast it is in a starbucks. Ive streamed live events before waiting in one for example. I assume if Gogo tried to charge the airlines directly for the service which is probably the only way for this to turn a profit the airlines would just do it themselves like B6 has?
 
x1234
Posts: 949
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2016 3:50 pm

Re: Gogo in-flight internet business sold to Intelsat

Mon Aug 31, 2020 11:31 pm

And there's Elon Musks starlink low earth orbit systems. They are able to achieve ~30ms RTT on satellite which is near ground LTE/fiber level speeds. They need to launch a ton more satellites for global coverage through. 2KU is the best available today for broad trans-oceanic coverage with higher latency. SES/o3b their competitor can do ~130ms RTT with more wider coverage instead of the 2KU 700-900ms latency.
 
ASMVPGOLD
Posts: 58
Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2006 7:05 am

Re: Gogo in-flight internet business sold to Intelsat

Mon Aug 31, 2020 11:33 pm

jetblueguy22 wrote:
Until GoGo can offer ground level bandwidth where you can stream Netflix/Hulu etc its always going to struggle. People expect speed and it’s hit or miss right now


I have streamed multiple live NFL games via Hulu while crossing the Pacific headed to Asia... I'd say (on some of their planes) the connection is pretty damn fast.
721/2,732/3/4/5/7/8/9,741/2/3/4,752/3,762/3/4,772/3/LR,787,DC9/30/50/80/90,DC10,MD11,L1011,F100,319,320,321,332,333,380,CRJ,ERJ,DH8/2/4
 
moa999
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Re: Gogo in-flight internet business sold to Intelsat

Mon Aug 31, 2020 11:50 pm

Satellites are expensive - wireless rates will always be behind wired.

And the technology has moved quickly. The newer services have enough bandwidth for video streaming. The older ones as mentioned can struggle with more than a few users downloading emails.

Recently watched a video from a luxury yacht captain that outlines satellite fees.
What might be called a basic package on land (100/20 Max speeds, with 20/10 Guaranteed)
Costs an eye-watering $900,000 per year for a single yacht.


And as for those who mentioned Starlink. For now at least it can't do anything overwater as they still haven't sorted out sat-sat communication which is needed. For the moment everything needs a groundstation that's also visible to the satellite which is why the trial will only start in certain areas of the US.

Geostationary (as distinct from the Leo of Starlink) sats are moving to the Ka band.
ViaSat 3 is I think now scheduled for 2022/23 launch and will provide global coverage with 3 says.
 
catiii
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Re: Gogo in-flight internet business sold to Intelsat

Mon Aug 31, 2020 11:59 pm

SocalApproach wrote:
Plenty of airlines provide internet now for passengers to text for free (AS/DL/B6/WN).


WiFi is like water now. It’s a need you have to provide for free. B6 did it right, and it is well beyond just free texting.
 
Iloveboeing
Posts: 469
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2005 11:02 am

Re: Gogo in-flight internet business sold to Intelsat

Tue Sep 01, 2020 12:54 am

catiii wrote:
SocalApproach wrote:
Plenty of airlines provide internet now for passengers to text for free (AS/DL/B6/WN).


WiFi is like water now. It’s a need you have to provide for free. B6 did it right, and it is well beyond just free texting.


When I flew DL recently, the free texting was only for T-Mobile customers. I have Verizon, so that was useless for me. They need free texting on all carriers to make it more viable and worthwhile.
 
jb1087xna
Posts: 496
Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2014 2:11 am

Re: Gogo in-flight internet business sold to Intelsat

Tue Sep 01, 2020 2:02 am

Iloveboeing wrote:
catiii wrote:
SocalApproach wrote:
Plenty of airlines provide internet now for passengers to text for free (AS/DL/B6/WN).


WiFi is like water now. It’s a need you have to provide for free. B6 did it right, and it is well beyond just free texting.


When I flew DL recently, the free texting was only for T-Mobile customers. I have Verizon, so that was useless for me. They need free texting on all carriers to make it more viable and worthwhile.


DL's free texting applies to everyone. You need to select the right option to engage it. I have AT&T and was recently on four different flights in which the service was available when WiFi service was available. There is a T-Moble ad that stands out as an advertisement but DL's service makes that obsolete.
 
LCDFlight
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Re: Gogo in-flight internet business sold to Intelsat

Tue Sep 01, 2020 2:08 am

jetblueguy22 wrote:
Until GoGo can offer ground level bandwidth where you can stream Netflix/Hulu etc its always going to struggle. People expect speed and it’s hit or miss right now


I would just ask for speed good enough to surf a.net and read email.

To a shocking degree, these "Onboard Wifi" products fail to meet even a totally basic bar. The services basically don't work, about 60% of the time for me. Mac or Windows.
 
ASMVPGOLD
Posts: 58
Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2006 7:05 am

Re: Gogo in-flight internet business sold to Intelsat

Tue Sep 01, 2020 3:02 am

LCDFlight wrote:
jetblueguy22 wrote:
Until GoGo can offer ground level bandwidth where you can stream Netflix/Hulu etc its always going to struggle. People expect speed and it’s hit or miss right now


I would just ask for speed good enough to surf a.net and read email.

To a shocking degree, these "Onboard Wifi" products fail to meet even a totally basic bar. The services basically don't work, about 60% of the time for me. Mac or Windows.


Very much depends on the plane and which GoGo service it is equipped with. Delta's 767s and 330/350s have VERY fast satellite based GOGO internet. I have been VERY impressed with the speed/service on trans-pacific flights. You can get work done, stream a movie or live TV. You can plan on doing everything you need to do in the air.
721/2,732/3/4/5/7/8/9,741/2/3/4,752/3,762/3/4,772/3/LR,787,DC9/30/50/80/90,DC10,MD11,L1011,F100,319,320,321,332,333,380,CRJ,ERJ,DH8/2/4
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 1870
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: Gogo in-flight internet business sold to Intelsat

Tue Sep 01, 2020 1:04 pm

jb1087xna wrote:
Iloveboeing wrote:
catiii wrote:

WiFi is like water now. It’s a need you have to provide for free. B6 did it right, and it is well beyond just free texting.


When I flew DL recently, the free texting was only for T-Mobile customers. I have Verizon, so that was useless for me. They need free texting on all carriers to make it more viable and worthwhile.


DL's free texting applies to everyone. You need to select the right option to engage it. I have AT&T and was recently on four different flights in which the service was available when WiFi service was available. There is a T-Moble ad that stands out as an advertisement but DL's service makes that obsolete.

It used to be only T-Mobile customers, but that has changed over a year ago.
DL hasn't updated their page to remove this special link, or maybe it's just part of an agreement with T-Mobile (advertisement?).
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 8529
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Gogo in-flight internet business sold to Intelsat

Tue Sep 01, 2020 2:03 pm

LCDFlight wrote:
jetblueguy22 wrote:
Until GoGo can offer ground level bandwidth where you can stream Netflix/Hulu etc its always going to struggle. People expect speed and it’s hit or miss right now


I would just ask for speed good enough to surf a.net and read email.

To a shocking degree, these "Onboard Wifi" products fail to meet even a totally basic bar. The services basically don't work, about 60% of the time for me. Mac or Windows.


Do you want to identify the carriers and wifi systems responsible for that low performance?

IME it's not hit-or-miss with DL: IIRC, every mainline aircraft except the 717s have Gogo Ku or 2Ku sat wifi. (If you want to complain about 1st-gen Gogo ATG on an AA Eagle CR7, yes, it's awful: I've seen download speeds lower than 56K.)
 
LCDFlight
Posts: 696
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2020 9:22 pm

Re: Gogo in-flight internet business sold to Intelsat

Tue Sep 01, 2020 2:16 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
LCDFlight wrote:
jetblueguy22 wrote:
Until GoGo can offer ground level bandwidth where you can stream Netflix/Hulu etc its always going to struggle. People expect speed and it’s hit or miss right now


I would just ask for speed good enough to surf a.net and read email.

To a shocking degree, these "Onboard Wifi" products fail to meet even a totally basic bar. The services basically don't work, about 60% of the time for me. Mac or Windows.


Do you want to identify the carriers and wifi systems responsible for that low performance?

IME it's not hit-or-miss with DL: IIRC, every mainline aircraft except the 717s have Gogo Ku or 2Ku sat wifi. (If you want to complain about 1st-gen Gogo ATG on an AA Eagle CR7, yes, it's awful: I've seen download speeds lower than 56K.)


Both DL and AA are commonly inop for me. E70, even 737s and Airbus. If you are inbound to LGA in business hours (>10 users) it's just not going to work. 10,000ms latency time ta least. Am I alone in this? Maybe on some tourism oriented flights, it wrks.o I flew about 30 segments in 2019 and very few in 2020. Not nearly as much as some here, but my internet use was near 100%.
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 8477
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: Gogo in-flight internet business sold to Intelsat

Tue Sep 01, 2020 2:25 pm

moa999 wrote:
Satellites are expensive - wireless rates will always be behind wired.

And the technology has moved quickly. The newer services have enough bandwidth for video streaming. The older ones as mentioned can struggle with more than a few users downloading emails.

Recently watched a video from a luxury yacht captain that outlines satellite fees.
What might be called a basic package on land (100/20 Max speeds, with 20/10 Guaranteed)
Costs an eye-watering $900,000 per year for a single yacht.


And as for those who mentioned Starlink. For now at least it can't do anything overwater as they still haven't sorted out sat-sat communication which is needed. For the moment everything needs a groundstation that's also visible to the satellite which is why the trial will only start in certain areas of the US.

Geostationary (as distinct from the Leo of Starlink) sats are moving to the Ka band.
ViaSat 3 is I think now scheduled for 2022/23 launch and will provide global coverage with 3 says.


Satellites are not the issue, oligopoly is. Airlines spent millions installing custom equipment, and now they are forced to take whatever new owner offers.
All posts are just opinions.
 
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LAXintl
Topic Author
Posts: 24823
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

Re: Gogo in-flight internet business sold to Intelsat

Tue Sep 01, 2020 2:48 pm

Here is the press release

https://investors.intelsat.com/news-rel ... iness-gogo

Deeper reading looks like Intelsat will become the exclusive satellite provider for 10-year period to Gogo in North America using its 2Ku technology.

Deal subject to regulatory review and expected to close Q1 2021.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
moa999
Posts: 980
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:37 am

Re: Gogo in-flight internet business sold to Intelsat

Tue Sep 01, 2020 3:10 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
Satellites are not the issue, oligopoly is. Airlines spent millions installing custom equipment, and now they are forced to take whatever new owner offers.


All depends on the contract.
Change of control clauses?
Change of technology clauses? Etc

You could likely get a contract that requires the provided to upgrade each aircraft to the latest gen tech as released,
But it's going to be lot more expensive than say a fixed 10-yr contract.
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 8477
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: Gogo in-flight internet business sold to Intelsat

Wed Sep 02, 2020 1:15 pm

moa999 wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
Satellites are not the issue, oligopoly is. Airlines spent millions installing custom equipment, and now they are forced to take whatever new owner offers.


All depends on the contract.
Change of control clauses?
Change of technology clauses? Etc

You could likely get a contract that requires the provided to upgrade each aircraft to the latest gen tech as released,
But it's going to be lot more expensive than say a fixed 10-yr contract.


If there are just two providers what sort of fair pricing one can expect in their contract. I doubt Elon Musk will compete because the two major providers are his clients/prospects.

From the inability tracking MH370 to NextGen rollout to in-flight Wi-Fi, the two satellite providers caused serious damage to aviation by making initial acquisition and subscription prohibitively expensive.
All posts are just opinions.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 8529
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Gogo in-flight internet business sold to Intelsat

Wed Sep 02, 2020 1:28 pm

LCDFlight wrote:
Both DL and AA are commonly inop for me. E70, even 737s and Airbus. If you are inbound to LGA in business hours (>10 users) it's just not going to work. 10,000ms latency time ta least. Am I alone in this?


You're not very specific. Don't expect sat wifi (not Ku nor 2Ku) on any DL Connection aircraft. They will be ATG-4 (or older ATG), and the CR2s have nothing at all. DL 73G/738/739/319/320/321 should all be 2Ku. I routinely see speeds greater than 12 MBps (certainly plenty for streaming, even HD, although Gogo network prioritization may sense streaming or big file uploads and slow you). Latency is around 1000ms - about 1/10th of what you cite.

I've seen higher speeds on JetBlue, and free is nice, but Gogo 2Ku is fast enough for anything I need. Last I recall AA was using multiple providers for sat wifi and I don't have enough specific aircraft/systems experiences to generalize.
 
moa999
Posts: 980
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:37 am

Re: Gogo in-flight internet business sold to Intelsat

Wed Sep 02, 2020 1:51 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
by making initial acquisition and subscription prohibitively expensive.


And yet one of them went bankrupt, so basically want charging enough to cover costs..

Not many rocket companies that can send a satellite to space either
 
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Polot
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Re: Gogo in-flight internet business sold to Intelsat

Wed Sep 02, 2020 1:53 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
From the inability tracking MH370 to NextGen rollout to in-flight Wi-Fi, the two satellite providers caused serious damage to aviation by making initial acquisition and subscription prohibitively expensive.

There is no way around that...satellites are not cheap, and in flight market is much more limited than land based market. You can really only profitably offer it for cheap if someone else is subsidizing the costs.
 
ALTF4
Posts: 1228
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:01 pm

Re: Gogo in-flight internet business sold to Intelsat

Wed Sep 02, 2020 2:27 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
jb1087xna wrote:
Iloveboeing wrote:

When I flew DL recently, the free texting was only for T-Mobile customers. I have Verizon, so that was useless for me. They need free texting on all carriers to make it more viable and worthwhile.


DL's free texting applies to everyone. You need to select the right option to engage it. I have AT&T and was recently on four different flights in which the service was available when WiFi service was available. There is a T-Moble ad that stands out as an advertisement but DL's service makes that obsolete.

It used to be only T-Mobile customers, but that has changed over a year ago.
DL hasn't updated their page to remove this special link, or maybe it's just part of an agreement with T-Mobile (advertisement?).


You guys are talking about different things. Texting, as in true SMS, is only available for T-Mobile customers. Messaging, as in iMessage, WhatsApp, and FB Messenger, are available for free to all. Since many people call "iMessage" on iPhone as "texting", but really it is a different technology, one could expect the confusion.

If you have an Android phone on Verizon and want to send a true SMS, you cannot.
The above post is my opinion. Don't like it? Don't read it.
 
Jshank83
Posts: 3598
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: Gogo in-flight internet business sold to Intelsat

Wed Sep 02, 2020 2:38 pm

ALTF4 wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
jb1087xna wrote:

DL's free texting applies to everyone. You need to select the right option to engage it. I have AT&T and was recently on four different flights in which the service was available when WiFi service was available. There is a T-Moble ad that stands out as an advertisement but DL's service makes that obsolete.

It used to be only T-Mobile customers, but that has changed over a year ago.
DL hasn't updated their page to remove this special link, or maybe it's just part of an agreement with T-Mobile (advertisement?).


You guys are talking about different things. Texting, as in true SMS, is only available for T-Mobile customers. Messaging, as in iMessage, WhatsApp, and FB Messenger, are available for free to all. Since many people call "iMessage" on iPhone as "texting", but really it is a different technology, one could expect the confusion.

If you have an Android phone on Verizon and want to send a true SMS, you cannot.


Internet was/is free for t-mobile also.
 
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usxguy
Posts: 1898
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 1:28 pm

Re: Gogo in-flight internet business sold to Intelsat

Wed Sep 02, 2020 3:37 pm

I've been using GoGo since the early days AirTran became their biggest user. On one flight, the FAs said I'm the first person they've seen use it and we started checking a bunch of websites -- was a bit surprised we could see some 'adult' websites :-D :-D

Now my fingers are crossed the new ownership doesn't null/void my monthly all-airline plan - I'm grandfathered in at like $50/mo!
xx
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 1870
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: Gogo in-flight internet business sold to Intelsat

Wed Sep 02, 2020 4:52 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
ALTF4 wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
It used to be only T-Mobile customers, but that has changed over a year ago.
DL hasn't updated their page to remove this special link, or maybe it's just part of an agreement with T-Mobile (advertisement?).


You guys are talking about different things. Texting, as in true SMS, is only available for T-Mobile customers. Messaging, as in iMessage, WhatsApp, and FB Messenger, are available for free to all. Since many people call "iMessage" on iPhone as "texting", but really it is a different technology, one could expect the confusion.

If you have an Android phone on Verizon and want to send a true SMS, you cannot.


Internet was/is free for t-mobile also.

Last time I flew, T-Mobile customers has 1 hour of free internet as well

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