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x1234
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SkyTeam and KE/DL not flying ICN-HND!?

Thu Sep 03, 2020 2:30 pm

I went to look for flights from HND to ICN and there isn't any. KE is still doing ICN-NRT which sucks for O&D passengers. I know they fly HND-GMP but they should have at least 1 flight from HND-ICN for connections.
 
ERAUMBA
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Re: SkyTeam and KE/DL not flying ICN-HND!?

Thu Sep 03, 2020 2:40 pm

Why?

Global load factors are down 90% mom and yoy...if there is no capacity deployed on a route, those individuals running the airline are certainly making the best decisions possible during this pandemic.
 
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cathay747
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Re: SkyTeam and KE/DL not flying ICN-HND!?

Thu Sep 03, 2020 2:44 pm

x1234 wrote:
I went to look for flights from HND to ICN and there isn't any. KE is still doing ICN-NRT which sucks for O&D passengers. I know they fly HND-GMP but they should have at least 1 flight from HND-ICN for connections.


You may think/feel that they should, but it would seem that KE's responsible parties for determining this disagree with you. I respectfully submit that they know more than you, or any of us. :roll:
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Polot
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Re: SkyTeam and KE/DL not flying ICN-HND!?

Thu Sep 03, 2020 3:01 pm

What connections? The only airport (pre-pandemic, I have no clue what is being flown now) that you can get to from HND that you couldn’t from ICN (where HND would also be a somewhat logical connection point) is PDX. For airports not served from HND Tokyo local pax are more likely to just head to NRT than connect via ICN just so they can use HND. Have you seen the state of air traffic at the moment though?

Nobody cares that ICN-NRT sucks for O&D because GMP and HND are both the preferred airports for that type of traffic.
 
chonetsao
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Re: SkyTeam and KE/DL not flying ICN-HND!?

Thu Sep 03, 2020 3:06 pm

I actually get what the OP is saying.

Think someone who lives in Tokyo and Yokohama wants to fly TYO to Europe or Southeast Asia via Seoul, a flight between HND and ICN would be needed to do such connection. Otherwise the said person can only fly via China or oneworld (JL+CX+AY) or star alliance or other non-stop connection. I understand Japan is a huge market for KE and a lack of HND-ICN is indeed a very interesting point here to make pre or post Covid.
 
jasoncrh
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Re: SkyTeam and KE/DL not flying ICN-HND!?

Thu Sep 03, 2020 3:25 pm

I'm pretty sure that KE didnt even fly ICN-HND pre-Covid. From HND they operated flights to GMP, in order to largely serve the very large volume of local o/d traffic. ICN service was limited to NRT. Similar thing with ANA - they didnt fly from HND to ICN but rather to GMP. From NRT they flew to ICN, if they flew at all?
Either way, they do and have done what's profitable for them.
OH, and Sky Team is a marketing association. It is not an airline. It has no bearing on what routes Korean Air chooses to fly.
 
jasoncrh
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Re: SkyTeam and KE/DL not flying ICN-HND!?

Thu Sep 03, 2020 3:28 pm

If that person REALLY wanted to go to those destinations via Seoul (instead of nonstop on one of multiple flights daily from HND), then to fly via Seoul they'd go to NRT.
Slots are extremely scarce at HND for international travel, and KE found that its best use of this limited resource was to use it for the high value traffic just between the Tokyo region and Seoul. This is what businesses do. When they have limited resources, they have to deploy it in the most profitable way. Having a flight or two just for low yielding connection traffic that can be served via other means (or not at all if the company deems that it's not worthwile) is not a good way to use one's resources.
End of story.

chonetsao wrote:
I actually get what the OP is saying.

Think someone who lives in Tokyo and Yokohama wants to fly TYO to Europe or Southeast Asia via Seoul, a flight between HND and ICN would be needed to do such connection. Otherwise the said person can only fly via China or oneworld (JL+CX+AY) or star alliance or other non-stop connection. I understand Japan is a huge market for KE and a lack of HND-ICN is indeed a very interesting point here to make pre or post Covid.
 
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Polot
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Re: SkyTeam and KE/DL not flying ICN-HND!?

Thu Sep 03, 2020 3:36 pm

jasoncrh wrote:
If that person REALLY wanted to go to those destinations via Seoul (instead of nonstop on one of multiple flights daily from HND), then to fly via Seoul they'd go to NRT.

Or you know, they just take one of many nonstops from NRT. NRT is less convenient than HND but it is not like Japanese passengers avoid it and take HND no matter what. Chasing HND connections from ICN is chasing bottom of the barrel junk yields. It’s not like the Tokyo passengers have a particular affinity for KE that would make them shun JL or ANA. Quite the opposite in fact-Japanese passengers are very loyal to their home airlines.
 
hoons90
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Re: SkyTeam and KE/DL not flying ICN-HND!?

Thu Sep 03, 2020 3:53 pm

Korean, Asiana and Peach actually did fly ICN-HND pre-pandemic. However the flights were not ideally timed for connections. I believe they took advantage of night time slots at HND that were more freely available.
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jetblueguy22
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Re: SkyTeam and KE/DL not flying ICN-HND!?

Thu Sep 03, 2020 3:54 pm

There is an odd assumption on this site that people only want to fly to HND and NRT is like getting dumped off in NKM.

Is HND preferred? Sure. But flying to NRT isn’t the end of world.
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hoons90
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Re: SkyTeam and KE/DL not flying ICN-HND!?

Thu Sep 03, 2020 3:56 pm

jasoncrh wrote:
Similar thing with ANA - they didnt fly from HND to ICN but rather to GMP. From NRT they flew to ICN, if they flew at all?


ANA flew NRT-ICN until March 2013. JAL flew it until October 2018.
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Lootess
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Re: SkyTeam and KE/DL not flying ICN-HND!?

Thu Sep 03, 2020 4:08 pm

Why waste a slot on HND on a ICN short-haul, GMP-HND was more valuable.
 
chonetsao
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Re: SkyTeam and KE/DL not flying ICN-HND!?

Thu Sep 03, 2020 4:23 pm

jetblueguy22 wrote:
There is an odd assumption on this site that people only want to fly to HND and NRT is like getting dumped off in NKM.

Is HND preferred? Sure. But flying to NRT isn’t the end of world.


It is not assumption. It is the reality. Hence why airlines are fighting to get into HND. The annual HND slot allocation is a perfect display. You need to be a local resident to understand why.
 
chonetsao
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Re: SkyTeam and KE/DL not flying ICN-HND!?

Thu Sep 03, 2020 4:25 pm

Lootess wrote:
Why waste a slot on HND on a ICN short-haul, GMP-HND was more valuable.


Have you heard about offering customer more choices? Why airlines fly to LIN when they can fly to MXP? Why airlines fly to LGW when they can fly to LHR? Why airline still offer EWR or JFK when they can fly to LGA?
 
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Polot
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Re: SkyTeam and KE/DL not flying ICN-HND!?

Thu Sep 03, 2020 4:26 pm

chonetsao wrote:
jetblueguy22 wrote:
There is an odd assumption on this site that people only want to fly to HND and NRT is like getting dumped off in NKM.

Is HND preferred? Sure. But flying to NRT isn’t the end of world.


It is not assumption. It is the reality. Hence why airlines are fighting to get into HND. The annual HND slot allocation is a perfect display. You need to be a local resident to understand why.

Yes it it’s preferred which is why airlines are fighting to get in. That doesn’t mean it is so preferred that a large segment of the population is willing to fly HND-ICN-XXX vs NRT-XXX at prices that make it worth while to fly HND-ICN with connections in mind.
 
flyfresno
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Re: SkyTeam and KE/DL not flying ICN-HND!?

Thu Sep 03, 2020 4:47 pm

Polot wrote:
What connections? The only airport (pre-pandemic, I have no clue what is being flown now) that you can get to from HND that you couldn’t from ICN (where HND would also be a somewhat logical connection point) is PDX. For airports not served from HND Tokyo local pax are more likely to just head to NRT than connect via ICN just so they can use HND. Have you seen the state of air traffic at the moment though?

Nobody cares that ICN-NRT sucks for O&D because GMP and HND are both the preferred airports for that type of traffic.


I flew from Tashkent to Tokyo a couple years ago through ICN. I think there was maybe one ICN-HND flight then, but it was inconvenient. Otherwise, it was either go to NRT or train to Gimpo to get a flight to Haneda. Probably not a huge market, but I feel like there are other routes like this where ICN has service but Tokyo does not, and some people would connect to HND. But, there are also other options too through other hubs.
 
Alias1024
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Re: SkyTeam and KE/DL not flying ICN-HND!?

Thu Sep 03, 2020 5:03 pm

chonetsao wrote:
I actually get what the OP is saying.

Think someone who lives in Tokyo and Yokohama wants to fly TYO to Europe or Southeast Asia via Seoul, a flight between HND and ICN would be needed to do such connection. Otherwise the said person can only fly via China or oneworld (JL+CX+AY) or star alliance or other non-stop connection. I understand Japan is a huge market for KE and a lack of HND-ICN is indeed a very interesting point here to make pre or post Covid.


If they want to go Tokyo to Europe they can take a nonstop if available, or if they need to connect and want to stay on SkyTeam they can connect in Europe flying KL, AF, or AZ. The market of people that want to connect and insist on it being at ICN is probably quite small.

Tokyo to Southeast Asia can be accomplished within SkyTeam on CI, MU, GA, or VN. Again, unless this person oddly insists on going via ICN they have options.
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LAXintl
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Re: SkyTeam and KE/DL not flying ICN-HND!?

Thu Sep 03, 2020 5:06 pm

KE used its HND slot for city-to-city service link to GMP, the far more preferable route for O&D traffic.

CI did similar, using its valueble HND slot for TSA flights, not TPE.
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Lootess
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Re: SkyTeam and KE/DL not flying ICN-HND!?

Thu Sep 03, 2020 5:10 pm

chonetsao wrote:
Lootess wrote:
Why waste a slot on HND on a ICN short-haul, GMP-HND was more valuable.


Have you heard about offering customer more choices? Why airlines fly to LIN when they can fly to MXP? Why airlines fly to LGW when they can fly to LHR? Why airline still offer EWR or JFK when they can fly to LGA?


It's based on O&D. If you lived in Seoul, you're taking the train to GMP instead of further out in ICN. Not even a close comparison to JFK or LGA.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: SkyTeam and KE/DL not flying ICN-HND!?

Thu Sep 03, 2020 6:09 pm

chonetsao wrote:
Lootess wrote:
Why waste a slot on HND on a ICN short-haul, GMP-HND was more valuable.


Have you heard about offering customer more choices? Why airlines fly to LIN when they can fly to MXP? Why airlines fly to LGW when they can fly to LHR? Why airline still offer EWR or JFK when they can fly to LGA?


That's a great comparison, actually, and shows how you don't get it. You've seen the reports of carriers discontinuing service at LGW in favor on LHR only, right? You saw how UA discontinued all service at JFK even well before covid, right? There isn't passenger volume to run every city/airport pair by every carrier.
 
tphuang
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Re: SkyTeam and KE/DL not flying ICN-HND!?

Thu Sep 03, 2020 6:44 pm

chonetsao wrote:
jetblueguy22 wrote:
There is an odd assumption on this site that people only want to fly to HND and NRT is like getting dumped off in NKM.

Is HND preferred? Sure. But flying to NRT isn’t the end of world.


It is not assumption. It is the reality. Hence why airlines are fighting to get into HND. The annual HND slot allocation is a perfect display. You need to be a local resident to understand why.


There are quite a few areas of Tokyo that can reach NRT faster and more easily.

If you are transiting ICN to get to tokyo, then you are really not that time sensitive. An extra 30 minute on the train isn't end of the world.
 
BHRN
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Re: SkyTeam and KE/DL not flying ICN-HND!?

Thu Sep 03, 2020 8:56 pm

I kind of have an impression that the current bilaterals only allow NRT-ICN and HND-GMP. You cannot do NRT-GMP or HND-ICN.

Can anyone confirm or disprove?

b-hrn
 
cesar666cu
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Re: SkyTeam and KE/DL not flying ICN-HND!?

Thu Sep 03, 2020 9:28 pm

BHRN wrote:
I kind of have an impression that the current bilaterals only allow NRT-ICN and HND-GMP. You cannot do NRT-GMP or HND-ICN.

Can anyone confirm or disprove?

b-hrn


I have flown many times pre pandemic ICN-HND on KAL, Asiana and Peach.
Both KAL and Asiana were daily, with the first using a mix of 737/330.
For some reasons those 3 flights were flown at night.
 
alfa164
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Re: SkyTeam and KE/DL not flying ICN-HND!?

Thu Sep 03, 2020 10:03 pm

cesar666cu wrote:
BHRN wrote:
I kind of have an impression that the current bilaterals only allow NRT-ICN and HND-GMP. You cannot do NRT-GMP or HND-ICN. Can anyone confirm or disprove?

I have flown many times pre pandemic ICN-HND on KAL, Asiana and Peach.
Both KAL and Asiana were daily, with the first using a mix of 737/330.
For some reasons those 3 flights were flown at night.


They were flown at night, because daytime slots at HND are very valuable; nobody is going to waste them on an ICN-HND flight.
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zakuivcustom
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Re: SkyTeam and KE/DL not flying ICN-HND!?

Thu Sep 03, 2020 11:01 pm

cesar666cu wrote:
BHRN wrote:
I kind of have an impression that the current bilaterals only allow NRT-ICN and HND-GMP. You cannot do NRT-GMP or HND-ICN.

Can anyone confirm or disprove?

b-hrn


I have flown many times pre pandemic ICN-HND on KAL, Asiana and Peach.
Both KAL and Asiana were daily, with the first using a mix of 737/330.
For some reasons those 3 flights were flown at night.


For Peach it is a matter of slot availability for international flights. They had night flights from HND to ICN, TPE, and PVG - with all 3 cities having a "closer in" airport.

For KE and OZ their HND-ICN flight is just additional capacity AFAIK. Tokyo-Seoul was a pretty busy route up until 2019 with the SK-Japan trade spat.

Polot wrote:
jasoncrh wrote:
If that person REALLY wanted to go to those destinations via Seoul (instead of nonstop on one of multiple flights daily from HND), then to fly via Seoul they'd go to NRT.

Or you know, they just take one of many nonstops from NRT. NRT is less convenient than HND but it is not like Japanese passengers avoid it and take HND no matter what. Chasing HND connections from ICN is chasing bottom of the barrel junk yields. It’s not like the Tokyo passengers have a particular affinity for KE that would make them shun JL or ANA. Quite the opposite in fact-Japanese passengers are very loyal to their home airlines.


Throwing on - any Tokyoites that would want to save money for connecting in ICN (mainly to Europe - KE/OZ offers flight to some secondary destinations that JL/NH doesn't) probably wouldn't mind spending an additional 30 mins or so going to NRT.
 
Lootess
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Re: SkyTeam and KE/DL not flying ICN-HND!?

Fri Sep 04, 2020 1:30 am

alfa164 wrote:
cesar666cu wrote:
BHRN wrote:
I kind of have an impression that the current bilaterals only allow NRT-ICN and HND-GMP. You cannot do NRT-GMP or HND-ICN. Can anyone confirm or disprove?

I have flown many times pre pandemic ICN-HND on KAL, Asiana and Peach.
Both KAL and Asiana were daily, with the first using a mix of 737/330.
For some reasons those 3 flights were flown at night.


They were flown at night, because daytime slots at HND are very valuable; nobody is going to waste them on an ICN-HND flight.


Yep, and the worst part is having to deal with the possibility of getting into HND too late for the train.
 
eamondzhang
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Re: SkyTeam and KE/DL not flying ICN-HND!?

Fri Sep 04, 2020 2:32 am

And why does DL have to do ICN-HND when none of their allocated slot belong to any fifth freedom route?

Michael
 
n757kw
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Re: SkyTeam and KE/DL not flying ICN-HND!?

Fri Sep 04, 2020 6:17 am

I flew to Tokyo in September 2019. KE offered 1 ICN-HND flight in the evening, if I remember correctly on a B737. I ended up doing a GMP-HND-GMP due to the better schedule, I think it was 3 daily round trips using a B777-300. Just took the train between ICN and GMP.

N757KW
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eamondzhang
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Re: SkyTeam and KE/DL not flying ICN-HND!?

Fri Sep 04, 2020 8:17 am

n757kw wrote:
I flew to Tokyo in September 2019. KE offered 1 ICN-HND flight in the evening, if I remember correctly on a B737. I ended up doing a GMP-HND-GMP due to the better schedule, I think it was 3 daily round trips using a B777-300. Just took the train between ICN and GMP.

N757KW

Yep - when I did spotting last year the flight actually departed around 6:30am from HND on a 737-900ER. Obviously I'm lazy enough not to catch the bird though :lol:

Michael
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: SkyTeam and KE/DL not flying ICN-HND!?

Fri Sep 04, 2020 12:18 pm

eamondzhang wrote:
n757kw wrote:
I flew to Tokyo in September 2019. KE offered 1 ICN-HND flight in the evening, if I remember correctly on a B737. I ended up doing a GMP-HND-GMP due to the better schedule, I think it was 3 daily round trips using a B777-300. Just took the train between ICN and GMP.

N757KW

Yep - when I did spotting last year the flight actually departed around 6:30am from HND on a 737-900ER. Obviously I'm lazy enough not to catch the bird though :lol:

Michael


Looking up records from FR24...

The schedule right before suspension were:
KE719 ICN 2040 HND 2250 739
KE720 HND 0200 ICN 0450 739

And for OZ:
OZ178 ICN 2130 HND 2325 321
OZ177 HND 0610 ICN 0850 321

Last flight were March 4th/5th, before the virus hit SK hard.

That KE red-eye simply sounds painful...both flights are not bad for day-tripper from Tokyo (not sure how many of those are out there...Japan and SK doesn't exactly have the best relation) but that's about it.
 
FromCDGtoSYD
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Re: SkyTeam and KE/DL not flying ICN-HND!?

Fri Sep 04, 2020 2:20 pm

zakuivcustom wrote:
Looking up records from FR24...

The schedule right before suspension were:
KE719 ICN 2040 HND 2250 739
KE720 HND 0200 ICN 0450 739

And for OZ:
OZ178 ICN 2130 HND 2325 321
OZ177 HND 0610 ICN 0850 321

Last flight were March 4th/5th, before the virus hit SK hard.

That KE red-eye simply sounds painful...both flights are not bad for day-tripper from Tokyo (not sure how many of those are out there...Japan and SK doesn't exactly have the best relation) but that's about it.


Took the KE flights a few times in the past, often operated by 737, sometimes an A330, flights were always full, even in J. Perfect for EU and some APAC arrivals. The redeye back was a bit more complicated but it happened to be convenient for me a couple of times (meeting people in the city for breakfast then back to Europe).

People seem to forget that because of the timing of the NRT flight, KE loses out on connections. Now of course, a case can be made for traffic flows not being large enough to justify this but I for one decided to take KLM because I didn't want to take the NRT flight and overnight in ICN whilst I waited for my CDG flight. Yes people, you can't simply go from ICN to GMP these days, what a shocker...

Lastly, KE, OZ, JL and NH all had 3 flights per day between GMP and HND. 777, A330 and 787 depending on the airline and time of day (KE was mostly 777-300 with F).
 
raylee67
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Re: SkyTeam and KE/DL not flying ICN-HND!?

Fri Sep 04, 2020 3:07 pm

zakuivcustom wrote:

The schedule right before suspension were:
KE719 ICN 2040 HND 2250 739
KE720 HND 0200 ICN 0450 739

And for OZ:
OZ178 ICN 2130 HND 2325 321
OZ177 HND 0610 ICN 0850 321



These are obviously arrange to allow connection at ICN. Makes sense. OZ and KE would not want to waste the day-time HND slots, which are limited, on connections. They want to use them on GMP which carry the more expensive O&D business traffic. The HND night time slot fits into their connection banks at ICN perfectly (6am at ICN is extremely busy time for connections).

At this point, no one is flying. So it's not just that there is no ICN-HND, even ICN-HKG or ICN-SIN or ICN-PVG are hard to come by.

That said, I fly to Tokyo about 3 to 4 times a year and I never understand why people like HND over NRT. I like HND's international terminal more since it's newer and have more shops. I like HND if I need to connect to a domestic flight. But other than those, I actually prefer NRT. I know HND is much closer to the city, but the monorail is small and cramped. Connecting to JR is a nightmare. Whereas when I fly to NRT, I can get to Ueno in 40 minutes using the comfortable Skyliner and connect to Metro from there. If I am connecting to Shinkansen, I can take the Narita Express to Tokyo station from NRT. Just personally, I found NRT more convenient actually.
319/20/21 332/33 342/43/45 359/51 388 707 717 732/36/3G/38/39 74R/42/43/44/4E/48 757 762/63 772/7L/73/7W 788/89 D10 M80 135/40/45 175/90 DH1/4 CRJ/R7 L10
AY LH OU SR BA FI LX
AA DL UA NW AC CP WS FL NK PD
CI NH SQ KA CX JL BR OZ TG KE CA CZ NZ JQ RS
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: SkyTeam and KE/DL not flying ICN-HND!?

Fri Sep 04, 2020 3:43 pm

raylee67 wrote:
That said, I fly to Tokyo about 3 to 4 times a year and I never understand why people like HND over NRT. I like HND's international terminal more since it's newer and have more shops. I like HND if I need to connect to a domestic flight. But other than those, I actually prefer NRT. I know HND is much closer to the city, but the monorail is small and cramped. Connecting to JR is a nightmare. Whereas when I fly to NRT, I can get to Ueno in 40 minutes using the comfortable Skyliner and connect to Metro from there. If I am connecting to Shinkansen, I can take the Narita Express to Tokyo station from NRT. Just personally, I found NRT more convenient actually.


Getting off topic, but Haneda Access should improve if and when Japanese govt (along with) finally complete that Haneda Access Rail Line enabling one-train ride to both Tokyo Stn area and Shinjuku Stn.

Of course, as of today they are talking about that line being complete in 2029. We will probably see Chuo Shinkansen being complete first at this pace.

For NRT - access is definitely a lot better nowaday. Plus there are those 1000yen buses from Tokyo Stn for those on a budget.

Anyway...back on topic:

raylee67 wrote:
These are obviously arrange to allow connection at ICN. Makes sense.


It was just hard for me to check flight time nowaday given how many flights are suspended.

But after your post - seems like that flight is intended for what I thought it does - Japan connection to Europe via ICN.

FromCDGtoSYD wrote:
Yes people, you can't simply go from ICN to GMP these days, what a shocker...


To be fair, getting between the two is easier than getting between HND and NRT, and definitely 100x easier than getting between the NYC area airports. The AREX train provides direct one-seat ride.

That being said, for the amount of time you waste getting between the two, it is probably just easier to take one of the ICN-NRT flight and go to central Tokyo from there. It is only maybe an additional 30 mins max anyway.
 
FromCDGtoSYD
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Re: SkyTeam and KE/DL not flying ICN-HND!?

Fri Sep 04, 2020 6:18 pm

zakuivcustom wrote:

FromCDGtoSYD wrote:
Yes people, you can't simply go from ICN to GMP these days, what a shocker...


To be fair, getting between the two is easier than getting between HND and NRT, and definitely 100x easier than getting between the NYC area airports. The AREX train provides direct one-seat ride.

That being said, for the amount of time you waste getting between the two, it is probably just easier to take one of the ICN-NRT flight and go to central Tokyo from there. It is only maybe an additional 30 mins max anyway.


I was referring to the fact that you can't enter Korea at the moment, and if you do you have to quarantine. Hence what I was saying about how flying to ICN would allow KE to have a second connection bank.

That being said, I completely agree, ICN to GMP is a breeze. Although, I do prefer the KAL limousine, way more comfortable. The express Arex used to have a stop at GMP but they realised there already wasn't much difference between the express and all stop train.

Narita might be well connected to Tokyo, but having lived near Meguro, Kawasaki and Musashi-Kosugi, I can tell you HND was much more convenient to get to, it really just depends on where you're going.
 
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Re: SkyTeam and KE/DL not flying ICN-HND!?

Fri Sep 04, 2020 11:02 pm

Polot wrote:
jasoncrh wrote:
If that person REALLY wanted to go to those destinations via Seoul (instead of nonstop on one of multiple flights daily from HND), then to fly via Seoul they'd go to NRT.

Or you know, they just take one of many nonstops from NRT. NRT is less convenient than HND but it is not like Japanese passengers avoid it and take HND no matter what. Chasing HND connections from ICN is chasing bottom of the barrel junk yields. It’s not like the Tokyo passengers have a particular affinity for KE that would make them shun JL or ANA. Quite the opposite in fact-Japanese passengers are very loyal to their home airlines.

According to my understand there're indeed number of passengers from Japan connect through Seoul or Taipei just so that they can fly from Haneda. But this is before Haneda have current number of international routes.
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zakuivcustom
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Re: SkyTeam and KE/DL not flying ICN-HND!?

Sat Sep 05, 2020 2:29 am

FromCDGtoSYD wrote:
zakuivcustom wrote:

FromCDGtoSYD wrote:
Yes people, you can't simply go from ICN to GMP these days, what a shocker...


To be fair, getting between the two is easier than getting between HND and NRT, and definitely 100x easier than getting between the NYC area airports. The AREX train provides direct one-seat ride.

That being said, for the amount of time you waste getting between the two, it is probably just easier to take one of the ICN-NRT flight and go to central Tokyo from there. It is only maybe an additional 30 mins max anyway.


I was referring to the fact that you can't enter Korea at the moment, and if you do you have to quarantine. Hence what I was saying about how flying to ICN would allow KE to have a second connection bank.

That being said, I completely agree, ICN to GMP is a breeze. Although, I do prefer the KAL limousine, way more comfortable. The express Arex used to have a stop at GMP but they realised there already wasn't much difference between the express and all stop train.

Narita might be well connected to Tokyo, but having lived near Meguro, Kawasaki and Musashi-Kosugi, I can tell you HND was much more convenient to get to, it really just depends on where you're going.


I see what you mean about SK. I definitely didn't think of the border restrictions.

c933103 wrote:
Polot wrote:
jasoncrh wrote:
If that person REALLY wanted to go to those destinations via Seoul (instead of nonstop on one of multiple flights daily from HND), then to fly via Seoul they'd go to NRT.

Or you know, they just take one of many nonstops from NRT. NRT is less convenient than HND but it is not like Japanese passengers avoid it and take HND no matter what. Chasing HND connections from ICN is chasing bottom of the barrel junk yields. It’s not like the Tokyo passengers have a particular affinity for KE that would make them shun JL or ANA. Quite the opposite in fact-Japanese passengers are very loyal to their home airlines.

According to my understand there're indeed number of passengers from Japan connect through Seoul or Taipei just so that they can fly from Haneda. But this is before Haneda have current number of international routes.


Seoul does have that HND-ICN flight. But TPE? Unless you are referring to the time when CI/BR are "forced" to use HND. Getting from TSA to TPE does take forever and I don't know anyone that would do that unless they are going to Kinmen or Makung...
 
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c933103
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Re: SkyTeam and KE/DL not flying ICN-HND!?

Sat Sep 05, 2020 4:13 am

zakuivcustom wrote:
FromCDGtoSYD wrote:
zakuivcustom wrote:



To be fair, getting between the two is easier than getting between HND and NRT, and definitely 100x easier than getting between the NYC area airports. The AREX train provides direct one-seat ride.

That being said, for the amount of time you waste getting between the two, it is probably just easier to take one of the ICN-NRT flight and go to central Tokyo from there. It is only maybe an additional 30 mins max anyway.


I was referring to the fact that you can't enter Korea at the moment, and if you do you have to quarantine. Hence what I was saying about how flying to ICN would allow KE to have a second connection bank.

That being said, I completely agree, ICN to GMP is a breeze. Although, I do prefer the KAL limousine, way more comfortable. The express Arex used to have a stop at GMP but they realised there already wasn't much difference between the express and all stop train.

Narita might be well connected to Tokyo, but having lived near Meguro, Kawasaki and Musashi-Kosugi, I can tell you HND was much more convenient to get to, it really just depends on where you're going.


I see what you mean about SK. I definitely didn't think of the border restrictions.

c933103 wrote:
Polot wrote:
Or you know, they just take one of many nonstops from NRT. NRT is less convenient than HND but it is not like Japanese passengers avoid it and take HND no matter what. Chasing HND connections from ICN is chasing bottom of the barrel junk yields. It’s not like the Tokyo passengers have a particular affinity for KE that would make them shun JL or ANA. Quite the opposite in fact-Japanese passengers are very loyal to their home airlines.

According to my understand there're indeed number of passengers from Japan connect through Seoul or Taipei just so that they can fly from Haneda. But this is before Haneda have current number of international routes.


Seoul does have that HND-ICN flight. But TPE? Unless you are referring to the time when CI/BR are "forced" to use HND. Getting from TSA to TPE does take forever and I don't know anyone that would do that unless they are going to Kinmen or Makung...

Yes that's what i meant
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ITSTours
Posts: 585
Joined: Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:51 pm

Re: SkyTeam and KE/DL not flying ICN-HND!?

Sat Sep 05, 2020 7:19 am

delete
 
ITSTours
Posts: 585
Joined: Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:51 pm

Re: SkyTeam and KE/DL not flying ICN-HND!?

Sat Sep 05, 2020 7:24 am

zakuivcustom wrote:
eamondzhang wrote:
n757kw wrote:
I flew to Tokyo in September 2019. KE offered 1 ICN-HND flight in the evening, if I remember correctly on a B737. I ended up doing a GMP-HND-GMP due to the better schedule, I think it was 3 daily round trips using a B777-300. Just took the train between ICN and GMP.

N757KW

Yep - when I did spotting last year the flight actually departed around 6:30am from HND on a 737-900ER. Obviously I'm lazy enough not to catch the bird though :lol:

Michael


Looking up records from FR24...

The schedule right before suspension were:
KE719 ICN 2040 HND 2250 739
KE720 HND 0200 ICN 0450 739

And for OZ:
OZ178 ICN 2130 HND 2325 321
OZ177 HND 0610 ICN 0850 321

Last flight were March 4th/5th, before the virus hit SK hard.

That KE red-eye simply sounds painful...both flights are not bad for day-tripper from Tokyo (not sure how many of those are out there...Japan and SK doesn't exactly have the best relation) but that's about it.


Yes, there were ICN-HND flights pre-COVID. Problem solved.

If Japan opens more daytime HND slots for Korea then Korea will open more GMP slots/rights. GMP slots are also restricted but not as much as HND. In fact recently there were more GMP traffic rights allocated for KHH.
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: SkyTeam and KE/DL not flying ICN-HND!?

Sat Sep 05, 2020 12:49 pm

ITSTours wrote:
If Japan opens more daytime HND slots for Korea then Korea will open more GMP slots/rights. GMP slots are also restricted but not as much as HND. In fact recently there were more GMP traffic rights allocated for KHH.


For GMP-KHH, I couldn't find any news other than one from 2015. But it seems like the rights are already there, just that no one fly it yet (of course, the virus doesn't help)?

They would be better off increasing the amount of GMP-TSA flight anyway, instead of restricting that to 7/wk each side.

As for more GMP-HND: I doubt it, not with Japan-SK relation being all time low right now. Plus, IMHO any additional slots should be allocated to HND-PUS anyway.
 
ITSTours
Posts: 585
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Re: SkyTeam and KE/DL not flying ICN-HND!?

Sat Sep 05, 2020 3:55 pm

zakuivcustom wrote:
ITSTours wrote:
If Japan opens more daytime HND slots for Korea then Korea will open more GMP slots/rights. GMP slots are also restricted but not as much as HND. In fact recently there were more GMP traffic rights allocated for KHH.


For GMP-KHH, I couldn't find any news other than one from 2015. But it seems like the rights are already there, just that no one fly it yet (of course, the virus doesn't help)?

They would be better off increasing the amount of GMP-TSA flight anyway, instead of restricting that to 7/wk each side.

As for more GMP-HND: I doubt it, not with Japan-SK relation being all time low right now. Plus, IMHO any additional slots should be allocated to HND-PUS anyway.


You are right, Japan won't open more HND slots for Korea. My statement was just a big if.

http://biz.newdaily.co.kr/site/data/htm ... 00234.html
It was this May. GMP-KHH, Tway 4x weekly, Jeju 3x weekly.
I agree that it should have been GMP-TSA.
Of course due to COVID there will be no flights for a while.

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