Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
N965UW
Topic Author
Posts: 66
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2020 11:31 pm

JZA8615 TSB report released

Thu Sep 03, 2020 5:12 pm

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-54016277

The Transportation Safety Board of Canada has released its report on the Jazz Dash 8 that collided with a fuel truck at YYZ last year. Of note is the fact that many passengers ignored the crew's instructions to remain seated and pressured the FAs to open the main exit. One of the passengers made "verbal threats."

This is yet another case of passengers grabbing their belongings while evacuating. The evacuation took 2 minutes and 31 seconds from the crew's order, exceeding the 90 second certification standard.

Link to the full report: https://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-repo ... o0063.html

Had any of that fuel ignited, this would've been far worse. Hopefully there will be lessons learned.
Flown on: A332 C172 C82R CRJ7 E190 PA38 P28A
Been aboard on ground only: B744F C17 C162 C182 CONC S76 T33
 
ERAUMBA
Posts: 43
Joined: Thu Nov 28, 2019 6:08 pm

Re: JZA8615 TSB report released

Thu Sep 03, 2020 6:56 pm

N965UW wrote:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-54016277

The Transportation Safety Board of Canada has released its report on the Jazz Dash 8 that collided with a fuel truck at YYZ last year. Of note is the fact that many passengers ignored the crew's instructions to remain seated and pressured the FAs to open the main exit. One of the passengers made "verbal threats."

This is yet another case of passengers grabbing their belongings while evacuating. The evacuation took 2 minutes and 31 seconds from the crew's order, exceeding the 90 second certification standard.

Link to the full report: https://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-repo ... o0063.html

Had any of that fuel ignited, this would've been far worse. Hopefully there will be lessons learned.


What lessons are you expecting?

Do you suppose this is the only time a passenger said to a flight attendant during an emergency “open the f*cking door”?

Are you proposing that passengers NOT bring luggage into the cabin, or, that aircraft should only be flown during daylight, or, that a rule should be enacted preventing fuel trucks from driving on the apron??

Not a tragic event nor a disastrous calamity. There are few, if any, “lessons” to be “learned”.
 
amstone17
Posts: 28
Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2005 1:37 am

Re: JZA8615 TSB report released

Thu Sep 03, 2020 7:10 pm

ERAUMBA wrote:
N965UW wrote:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-54016277

The Transportation Safety Board of Canada has released its report on the Jazz Dash 8 that collided with a fuel truck at YYZ last year. Of note is the fact that many passengers ignored the crew's instructions to remain seated and pressured the FAs to open the main exit. One of the passengers made "verbal threats."

This is yet another case of passengers grabbing their belongings while evacuating. The evacuation took 2 minutes and 31 seconds from the crew's order, exceeding the 90 second certification standard.

Link to the full report: https://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-repo ... o0063.html

Had any of that fuel ignited, this would've been far worse. Hopefully there will be lessons learned.


What lessons are you expecting?

Do you suppose this is the only time a passenger said to a flight attendant during an emergency “open the f*cking door”?

Are you proposing that passengers NOT bring luggage into the cabin, or, that aircraft should only be flown during daylight, or, that a rule should be enacted preventing fuel trucks from driving on the apron??

Not a tragic event nor a disastrous calamity. There are few, if any, “lessons” to be “learned”.



You really take a very aggressive stance to calling out a common problem.

There are always lessons to be learned though passengers on average are stubborn and tend to refuse to even listen.
Your list of assumed proposals by OP are just ridiculous and unnecessarily combative, like you're just looking for a fight.

Ultimately, flight crew including cabin crew are trained professionals, and passengers are supposed to shut the heck up and listen to what these professionals instruct them to do. No it's not the first time passengers act like morons, and it won't be the last time. Doesn't mean we can't discuss it anyway, and there's no call for your aggressive tone and baseless accusations.
 
N965UW
Topic Author
Posts: 66
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2020 11:31 pm

Re: JZA8615 TSB report released

Thu Sep 03, 2020 7:24 pm

ERAUMBA wrote:

What lessons are you expecting?

Do you suppose this is the only time a passenger said to a flight attendant during an emergency “open the f*cking door”?

Are you proposing that passengers NOT bring luggage into the cabin, or, that aircraft should only be flown during daylight, or, that a rule should be enacted preventing fuel trucks from driving on the apron??

Not a tragic event nor a disastrous calamity. There are few, if any, “lessons” to be “learned”.


There are no revolutionary things for the industry to learn from this, but it's a case study that the general flying public can learn from. Just 5 days prior, 41 people lost their lives on SU1492, and passengers there were seen carrying luggage while evacuating. Whether the luggage caused any deaths is debated, but the point is that these incidents should be a teaching moment.

Hypothetically, if fuel ignited and set the cabin ablaze, people would have died because they spent over two and a half minutes trying to get out of a 50-seat airplane. That possibility reflects on how inefficiently the evacuation process was carried out.

Moral of the story: emergency evacuations must be more efficient and passengers need to learn to leave their baggage behind and follow the lawful instructions of the flight crew. No loss of life is required to demonstrate this.
Flown on: A332 C172 C82R CRJ7 E190 PA38 P28A
Been aboard on ground only: B744F C17 C162 C182 CONC S76 T33
 
catiii
Posts: 3611
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:18 am

Re: JZA8615 TSB report released

Thu Sep 03, 2020 7:28 pm

ERAUMBA wrote:
[
Are you proposing that passengers NOT bring luggage into the cabin, or, that aircraft should only be flown during daylight, or, that a rule should be enacted preventing fuel trucks from driving on the apron??

Not a tragic event nor a disastrous calamity. There are few, if any, “lessons” to be “learned”.


Are you proposing passengers grab all of their carryons when evacuating?
 
joeblow10
Posts: 444
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:58 pm

Re: JZA8615 TSB report released

Thu Sep 03, 2020 7:32 pm

I have to agree - what are we actually proposing to do about passengers and their belongings? Unless some regulation changes around being able to bring your stuff onboard (or locking the bins...good luck with that) - what can you expect. People act irrationally and often selfishly in an emergency, human nature combined with a sense of panic. Doesn't seem like there is much to be "learned" in the sense that there isn't much you can change

And if I see the 4 other people around me running for the exits even if they're being told not to, I find it hard to believe I would act any differently (though, I wouldn't grab my bags... and would probably give a boot in the a** to the guy who is)
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 24647
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: JZA8615 TSB report released

Thu Sep 03, 2020 7:43 pm

joeblow10 wrote:
I have to agree - what are we actually proposing to do about passengers and their belongings? Unless some regulation changes around being able to bring your stuff onboard (or locking the bins...good luck with that) - what can you expect. People act irrationally and often selfishly in an emergency, human nature combined with a sense of panic. Doesn't seem like there is much to be "learned" in the sense that there isn't much you can change

And if I see the 4 other people around me running for the exits even if they're being told not to, I find it hard to believe I would act any differently (though, I wouldn't grab my bags... and would probably give a boot in the a** to the guy who is)

Not much can be done.

Ban pax who carry bags out the emergency exits from ever flying with the airline again? That's not gonna stand up too well in court, it was a bleeping emergency situation, but if they can enforce masks this way why not?

Mandatory carry on insurance (new line item on airplane ticket) so people can't say they had no choice but take out their bag rather than lose it? Should be a great money spinner for the insurance industry.

Yet if nothing gets done, nothing will change for the better, it'll only get worse.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
User avatar
rikkus67
Posts: 1342
Joined: Fri Jun 09, 2000 11:34 am

Re: JZA8615 TSB report released

Thu Sep 03, 2020 7:57 pm

I am glad that everyone got out OK, but it saddens and frustrates me when reading the report, and the actions of some of the passengers. Appalling to think of what could have happened, and the extra time wasted when grabbing personal items. I am of the firm belief that in an emergency situation, where people are delaying evacuation due to grabbing personal items, that stiff fines be laid. Anyone found to have larger personal items taken from the cabin, should be immediately identified, arrested, and charged. If the delay causes personal harm or death to any other passengers, a charge up to involuntary manslaughter should also be laid. A persons fancy laptop or crown jewels does not take precedence over another persons life. Personally, I keep my cellphone very close, and my passport and wallet on me. F*** everything else.
AC.WA.CP.DL.RW.CO.WG.WJ.WN.KI.FL.SK.ACL.UA.US.F9
 
ERAUMBA
Posts: 43
Joined: Thu Nov 28, 2019 6:08 pm

Re: JZA8615 TSB report released

Thu Sep 03, 2020 8:43 pm

[/quote]

You really take a very aggressive stance to calling out a common problem.

There are always lessons to be learned though passengers on average are stubborn and tend to refuse to even listen.
Your list of assumed proposals by OP are just ridiculous and unnecessarily combative, like you're just looking for a fight.

Ultimately, flight crew including cabin crew are trained professionals, and passengers are supposed to shut the heck up and listen to what these professionals instruct them to do. No it's not the first time passengers act like morons, and it won't be the last time. Doesn't mean we can't discuss it anyway, and there's no call for your aggressive tone and baseless accusations.[/quote]

One lesson learned here: you have zero real-world experience in aviation other than this website. You contradict yourself in your statement - enough said, irrelevant.

Again, I assert to you, what “lessons” are to be learned? The “flying public” as so eloquently stated herein, will never NOT panic and they’ll never NOT evacuate with their hand luggage.

The “flying public” are not the “flying professionals” and passengers in a panic will certainly dispense with any verbal pleasantries; again, I find it irrelevant and an unnecessary addition to the report. If someone threatened the Flight Attendant to get the door open, good for them.
 
ERAUMBA
Posts: 43
Joined: Thu Nov 28, 2019 6:08 pm

Re: JZA8615 TSB report released

Thu Sep 03, 2020 8:49 pm

rikkus67 wrote:
Anyone found to have larger personal items taken from the cabin, should be immediately identified, arrested, and charged. If the delay causes personal harm or death to any other passengers, a charge up to involuntary manslaughter should also be laid.


Where do you suggest we enact these laws?
In every country??
Just within IATA or ICAO members???
Which agency is responsible for arresting and charging the accused????

Let’s say the United Kingdom enacts such a law regarding evacuations and carry-on luggage, as you suggest. What happens when a Polish citizen traveling from Warsaw to Belize via London visa is accused of impeding an evacuation of a U.K.-registered aircraft on crash-landing in French Martinique after an inflight emergency and diversion? Which police agency handles the charging documents?? Are they extradited from hospital straight to Bow Street???

Really, friend? Completely impossible and unreal.
 
ZKCIF
Posts: 414
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2010 8:18 pm

Re: JZA8615 TSB report released

Thu Sep 03, 2020 9:47 pm

I would like to take a different look at the flight crew. Just not about this flight.
We need competent flight crews. we need flight crews respected by passengers.
The problem is that REFUSAL to listen to the orders of flight crews in some cases comes from the (I put it mildly) bizarre policies of airlines.
Example:
I flew on Lufthansa a couple of weeks ago.
When disembarking, people were told "rows one to five may disembark" etc.
Problem: if you are in row 6/7/8/9/10, you cannot stand up and take your bag to get ready.
Passengers from row 1 to 5 are keeping their own social distancings of five inches, pushing and shoving each other as passenger X from row 2 has his bag above row 7, passenger Y from row 5 has his bag over row 3, and passenger Z has no idea where his hand luggage has been moved at all.
Under normal circumstances, those who cannot retrieve their hand luggage immediately politely wait until the "ready" passengers leave and the bins become half-empty and everyone sees where their dear items have moved.
What I could hear was moaning and groaning about how stupid the crew was.
When someone needs to evacuate next time, they will have this "stupid crew" in their subconsciousness.
In my opinion, this is one of the causes why, in an emergency, some briefcases disembark and some passengers are consumed by fire
 
bennett123
Posts: 9828
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

Re: JZA8615 TSB report released

Thu Sep 03, 2020 10:39 pm

The real problem is that people are all me me me.

Ok, behave like kids get treated like kids.

In an evacuation situation, any taking luggage off is charged in whatever jurisdiction the event occurs.

The relevant state then passes those names to IATA, to be circulated to all members.

Joining No Fly list follows.
 
wetpantsmcgee
Posts: 90
Joined: Fri May 20, 2011 1:23 am

Re: JZA8615 TSB report released

Thu Sep 03, 2020 10:57 pm

Perhaps it should be added to the in-flight safety video. They could get Terry Tate to demonstrate what happens when you block the aisle in an emergency.
 
kalvado
Posts: 2898
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 am

Re: JZA8615 TSB report released

Fri Sep 04, 2020 12:17 am

You cannot have the cake and eat it too.
Either there was no emergency, so a bit of delay is moot.
Or there was an emergency, then crew -related delay is equally important.
I would rephrase situation as "once FA, under passenger pressure started to do the job, she realized - after almost a minute of dragging feet around - that evacuation has to happen"
Still nothing beats certain world-class airine keeping pax above active fire in a hold for 15 minutes after landing, though.
 
User avatar
Polot
Posts: 10739
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

Re: JZA8615 TSB report released

Fri Sep 04, 2020 12:26 am

kalvado wrote:
You cannot have the cake and eat it too.
Either there was no emergency, so a bit of delay is moot.
Or there was an emergency, then crew -related delay is equally important.
I would rephrase situation as "once FA, under passenger pressure started to do the job, she realized - after almost a minute of dragging feet around - that evacuation has to happen"
Still nothing beats certain world-class airine keeping pax above active fire in a hold for 15 minutes after landing, though.

That was honestly one of my first readings of the situation too. We are simultaneously criticizing passengers for taking their bags while also criticizing them for demanding that the exit be open so they can evaluate.

Also all this talk and no one mentioned that that captain told the FA to evacuate both in a call and over the PA but she couldn’t hear him, and only ordered evacuation after she was pressured to open the door and then smelled the gas after doing so.
 
kalvado
Posts: 2898
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 am

Re: JZA8615 TSB report released

Fri Sep 04, 2020 12:34 am

Polot wrote:
kalvado wrote:
You cannot have the cake and eat it too.
Either there was no emergency, so a bit of delay is moot.
Or there was an emergency, then crew -related delay is equally important.
I would rephrase situation as "once FA, under passenger pressure started to do the job, she realized - after almost a minute of dragging feet around - that evacuation has to happen"
Still nothing beats certain world-class airine keeping pax above active fire in a hold for 15 minutes after landing, though.

That was honestly one of my first readings of the situation too. We are simultaneously criticizing passengers for taking their bags while also criticizing them for demanding that the exit be open so they can evaluate.

Also all this talk and no one mentioned that that captain told the FA to evacuate but she couldn’t hear him, and only ordered evacuation after she was pressured to open the door and then smelled the gas after doing so.

Not really
The captain called the flight attendant via the interphone system and instructed her to begin a rapid deplanement.

A rapid deplanement is not evacuation. Moreover,
The flight attendant did not command the use of other emergency exits at any time, a decision consistent with her blocking the front emergency exit door (exit R1)

There was no emergency, per the crew actions. Emergency evacuation path was deliberately blocked by the crew. 90 second evacuation standard should not apply.
 
User avatar
Polot
Posts: 10739
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

Re: JZA8615 TSB report released

Fri Sep 04, 2020 12:36 am

kalvado wrote:
Polot wrote:
kalvado wrote:
You cannot have the cake and eat it too.
Either there was no emergency, so a bit of delay is moot.
Or there was an emergency, then crew -related delay is equally important.
I would rephrase situation as "once FA, under passenger pressure started to do the job, she realized - after almost a minute of dragging feet around - that evacuation has to happen"
Still nothing beats certain world-class airine keeping pax above active fire in a hold for 15 minutes after landing, though.

That was honestly one of my first readings of the situation too. We are simultaneously criticizing passengers for taking their bags while also criticizing them for demanding that the exit be open so they can evaluate.

Also all this talk and no one mentioned that that captain told the FA to evacuate but she couldn’t hear him, and only ordered evacuation after she was pressured to open the door and then smelled the gas after doing so.

Not really
The captain called the flight attendant via the interphone system and instructed her to begin a rapid deplanement.

A rapid deplanement is not evacuation. Moreover,


The very next line says

During this call, the smell of fuel and/or engine exhaust reached the cockpit, which is when the captain gave the order over the PA system to evacuate.

Whatever the severity of the issue the Captain was giving to the FA it is clear she did not hear/understand and did not follow through, which also delayed orderly evacuation.

With passengers ignoring request to not take bags until the FO told passengers to stop it sounds like the FA lost control of the plane and was not viewed as a authorative figure anymore.
 
75driver
Posts: 130
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2020 2:02 pm

Re: JZA8615 TSB report released

Sat Sep 05, 2020 9:45 pm

Put auto-locks on the bins. Only open when the aeroplane comes to a complete stop or when the seatbelt sign is off. :)
 
User avatar
SuseJ772
Posts: 1001
Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:13 am

Re: JZA8615 TSB report released

Sat Sep 05, 2020 10:20 pm

kalvado wrote:
You cannot have the cake and eat it too.
Either there was no emergency, so a bit of delay is moot.
Or there was an emergency, then crew -related delay is equally important.
I would rephrase situation as "once FA, under passenger pressure started to do the job, she realized - after almost a minute of dragging feet around - that evacuation has to happen"
Still nothing beats certain world-class airine keeping pax above active fire in a hold for 15 minutes after landing, though.


I would like this post a hundred times if I could. I don’t get the juxtaposition.
Currently at PIE, requesting FWA >> >>
 
User avatar
RWA380
Posts: 5741
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2005 10:51 am

Re: JZA8615 TSB report released

Sat Sep 05, 2020 11:54 pm

ERAUMBA wrote:
rikkus67 wrote:
Anyone found to have larger personal items taken from the cabin, should be immediately identified, arrested, and charged. If the delay causes personal harm or death to any other passengers, a charge up to involuntary manslaughter should also be laid.


Where do you suggest we enact these laws?
In every country??
Just within IATA or ICAO members???
Which agency is responsible for arresting and charging the accused????

Let’s say the United Kingdom enacts such a law regarding evacuations and carry-on luggage, as you suggest. What happens when a Polish citizen traveling from Warsaw to Belize via London visa is accused of impeding an evacuation of a U.K.-registered aircraft on crash-landing in French Martinique after an inflight emergency and diversion? Which police akin to a penaltyhandles the charging documents?? Are they extradited from hospital straight to Bow Street???

Really, friend? Completely impossible and unreal.


There could be something written into the passenger & carrier rights part of a ticket declaration, that includes verbiage regarding steep fines for passengers leaving a scene with carry on baggage. As everyone from the scene will be processed, there will be no mistaking those wasting time grabbing their belongings, where seconds have been proven to count in lives.
707 717 720 727-1/2 737-1/2/3/4/5/6/7/8/9 747-1/2/3/4 757-2/3 767-2/3/4 777-2/3 DC8 DC9 MD80/2/7/8 D10-1/3/4 M11 L10-1/2/5 A300/310/320
AA AC AQ AS BA BD BN CO CS DL EA EZ HA HG HP KL KN MP MW NK NW OZ PA PS QX RC RH RW SA TG TW UA US VS WA WC WN WP YS 8M
 
brilondon
Posts: 3164
Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2005 6:56 am

Re: JZA8615 TSB report released

Sun Sep 06, 2020 3:51 am

catiii wrote:
ERAUMBA wrote:
[
Are you proposing that passengers NOT bring luggage into the cabin, or, that aircraft should only be flown during daylight, or, that a rule should be enacted preventing fuel trucks from driving on the apron??

Not a tragic event nor a disastrous calamity. There are few, if any, “lessons” to be “learned”.


Are you proposing passengers grab all of their carryons when evacuating?


If you read what the poster wrote, you wouldn't have asked that question. He said no such thing.

I would love to see no hand luggage brought into the cabin. A carry on bag of a reasonable size and weight. Why must a person carry everything into the cabin with them is beyond ridiculous?
I would like to see the limit of one (1) bag only.
Rush forever Closer To My Heart
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 14586
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

Re: JZA8615 TSB report released

Sun Sep 06, 2020 5:04 pm

RWA380 wrote:
ERAUMBA wrote:
rikkus67 wrote:
Anyone found to have larger personal items taken from the cabin, should be immediately identified, arrested, and charged. If the delay causes personal harm or death to any other passengers, a charge up to involuntary manslaughter should also be laid.


Where do you suggest we enact these laws?
In every country??
Just within IATA or ICAO members???
Which agency is responsible for arresting and charging the accused????

Let’s say the United Kingdom enacts such a law regarding evacuations and carry-on luggage, as you suggest. What happens when a Polish citizen traveling from Warsaw to Belize via London visa is accused of impeding an evacuation of a U.K.-registered aircraft on crash-landing in French Martinique after an inflight emergency and diversion? Which police akin to a penaltyhandles the charging documents?? Are they extradited from hospital straight to Bow Street???

Really, friend? Completely impossible and unreal.


There could be something written into the passenger & carrier rights part of a ticket declaration, that includes verbiage regarding steep fines for passengers leaving a scene with carry on baggage. As everyone from the scene will be processed, there will be no mistaking those wasting time grabbing their belongings, where seconds have been proven to count in lives.


Seems awfully difficult from a management/enforcement perspective. How do you prove that, in the heat of the moment, grabbing the bag was a voluntary act? Or would you just say guilty until proven innocent?
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
ERAUMBA
Posts: 43
Joined: Thu Nov 28, 2019 6:08 pm

Re: JZA8615 TSB report released

Sun Sep 06, 2020 8:07 pm

Why is this being discussed?

When did we a.net addicts become the legislative branch of ICAO/JAA/FAA etc?

This incident, while dangerous, highlights ONE thing everyone has disregarded or failed to see:

This WAS NOT a traditional “evacuation” and all of this conjecture and attempt to rule the regulations is futile. Passengers evacuated, the aircraft was saved and there were no casualties.

Let’s not devolve into a legislative affairs session about Grandma taking her hatbox off while “rapidly deplaning” and cussing out the stewardess for acting slowly during a panic.

Again, the finer points of legislating evacuation protocol:

-Which legislative/regulatory body enacts such rule(s)?

-Who, pray tell, is to monitor a fiery evacuation (on scene as suggested) and pursue said victims evacuating with their luggage??

-Which agency and in which jurisdiction is the accused charged and brought into custody???

-You cannot “regulate” or “prosecute” panic.

Mods, lock this off.
 
cedarjet
Posts: 8826
Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 1:12 am

Re: JZA8615 TSB report released

Sun Sep 06, 2020 8:19 pm

75driver wrote:
Put auto-locks on the bins. Only open when the aeroplane comes to a complete stop or when the seatbelt sign is off. :)

Typical of the unhelpful suggestions about what to do about passengers taking their stuff with them in an evacuation. Bins locked just means aisles blocked as passengers try to open the bin or break it open. And as for making it a criminal offence, what airline is going to press charges against the victims of an accident? That’d be quite a lot of fun to watch actually. Fact is people act like clowns around aeroplanes even when they’re not on fire, let alone when they are. Personally I would like to see much greater restrictions on the volume of what people can take onboard with them, but beyond that, there isn’t much that can be done.

Although cabin crew not hampering the evacuation would be a good start. Once again (after the Halifax crash and the near catastrophe in San Francisco) not at all impressed with the safety culture at fat dumb and happy Air Canada. (But let’s all shame the passengers instead.)
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
75driver
Posts: 130
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2020 2:02 pm

Re: JZA8615 TSB report released

Mon Sep 07, 2020 2:50 am

cedarjet wrote:
75driver wrote:
Put auto-locks on the bins. Only open when the aeroplane comes to a complete stop or when the seatbelt sign is off. :)

Typical of the unhelpful suggestions about what to do about passengers taking their stuff with them in an evacuation. Bins locked just means aisles blocked as passengers try to open the bin or break it open. And as for making it a criminal offence, what airline is going to press charges against the victims of an accident? That’d be quite a lot of fun to watch actually. Fact is people act like clowns around aeroplanes even when they’re not on fire, let alone when they are. Personally I would like to see much greater restrictions on the volume of what people can take onboard with them, but beyond that, there isn’t much that can be done.

Although cabin crew not hampering the evacuation would be a good start. Once again (after the Halifax crash and the near catastrophe in San Francisco) not at all impressed with the safety culture at fat dumb and happy Air Canada. (But let’s all shame the passengers instead.)


A sarcastic smiley after a post escapes many people. No worries, the lack of comprehension or missing the irony is normal for those lacking.
 
DH8PU
Posts: 47
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2007 1:49 am

Re: JZA8615 TSB report released

Mon Sep 07, 2020 8:11 am

cedarjet wrote:
75driver wrote:
Put auto-locks on the bins. Only open when the aeroplane comes to a complete stop or when the seatbelt sign is off. :)


Although cabin crew not hampering the evacuation would be a good start. Once again (after the Halifax crash and the near catastrophe in San Francisco) not at all impressed with the safety culture at fat dumb and happy Air Canada. (But let’s all shame the passengers instead.)


Where in the report does it state that the FA hampered the evacuation?

Also this was a Jazz flight not an AC flight
Cabin secure and doors checked
 
FluidFlow
Posts: 726
Joined: Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:39 am

Re: JZA8615 TSB report released

Mon Sep 07, 2020 8:31 am

Too many people here are post bad about people taking their stuff, delaying evacuation, people should be banned, bla bla bla but I bet no one was ever in a true emergency situation. Around 20 years ago I was involved in a car crash with multiple cars. Luckily I only had a minor arm injury but some people got it worse. Anyway I saw how hard it was for the fire brigade to calm down a panicked man and another run away from the scene along the highway and they had to search for him. I actually don't know when and where they found him. People can react absolutely crazy in certain situations and their brain just stops "functioning" and everything switches to an unconscious mode.

No one can say how people react, and punishing people for reacting a certain way in an emergency is a really patronising way of thinking especially when you have no clue how you would react but tell on the internet you would have reacted exactly how you should.
 
kalvado
Posts: 2898
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 am

Re: JZA8615 TSB report released

Mon Sep 07, 2020 12:34 pm

DH8PU wrote:
cedarjet wrote:
75driver wrote:
Put auto-locks on the bins. Only open when the aeroplane comes to a complete stop or when the seatbelt sign is off. :)


Although cabin crew not hampering the evacuation would be a good start. Once again (after the Halifax crash and the near catastrophe in San Francisco) not at all impressed with the safety culture at fat dumb and happy Air Canada. (But let’s all shame the passengers instead.)


Where in the report does it state that the FA hampered the evacuation?

Also this was a Jazz flight not an AC flight

Was there an evacuation to begin with? If there was, FA definitely restricted the flow:
The flight attendant did not command the use of other emergency exits at any time, a decision consistent with her blocking the front emergency exit door (exit R1)

R1 was probably the safest exit at that point. Hard to blame FA, though. Relatevily ordery deplanement (towards spilled fuel, actually) instead of evacuation likely reduced total risk.
But of course some highly trained professionals did their part as well:
The FO and the occupant of the flight deck observer seat exited the cockpit and stood near the incharge station located adjacent to the main door (exit L1), which is where the flight attendant is meant to stand during an evacuation.Footnote 21 This reduced the flight attendant’s ability to see down the aisle and monitor passengers beyond the first few rows of the aircraft.

Bag issue is oh-so-important that the training is deemed irrelevant:
The FO is required to exit the aircraft to assist with the evacuation or deplanement, including directing passengers to a safe area.
 
Clydenairways
Posts: 1308
Joined: Thu Jan 11, 2007 8:27 am

Re: JZA8615 TSB report released

Mon Sep 07, 2020 12:48 pm

This is not just limited to Aviation, its a more and more a modern trend to challenge those responsible for safety/security, arguing with police, emergency services etc.
I dont know how to solve the respect problem, but it would help evacuations if luggage went back into the hold like it did 40 years ago. The checked in luggage fee should be banned.
 
User avatar
par13del
Posts: 10363
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

Re: JZA8615 TSB report released

Mon Sep 07, 2020 1:31 pm

A question to be asked, did the number of bags being carried onboard a/c go up when the airlines decided to charge for all checked luggage?
 
kalvado
Posts: 2898
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 am

Re: JZA8615 TSB report released

Mon Sep 07, 2020 1:48 pm

Clydenairways wrote:
This is not just limited to Aviation, its a more and more a modern trend to challenge those responsible for safety/security, arguing with police, emergency services etc.
I dont know how to solve the respect problem, but it would help evacuations if luggage went back into the hold like it did 40 years ago. The checked in luggage fee should be banned.

Respect is earned, not begged for. In this case, crew definitely didn't earn much of a credit towards general crew respect pool. If anything, they may lost some.
 
frmrCapCadet
Posts: 4342
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

Re: JZA8615 TSB report released

Mon Sep 07, 2020 1:55 pm

One possibility is to confiscate all bags that should have been left. Second put more effort into restoring baggage to passengers in a timely manner. There is a parallel situation. People have refused to be rescued in floods and fires if there dog or cat can't come with them. I understand that rescuers are now advised to save the damn dogs and cats. Which means less room and less time to save people. Go figure.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
fly2moon
Posts: 23
Joined: Fri Sep 23, 2016 4:21 pm

Re: JZA8615 TSB report released

Mon Sep 07, 2020 3:27 pm

Many cars now have automatic braking systems available. How difficult would it be to equip fuel trucks and other airport vehicles with similar systems to prevent future collisions?
 
Clydenairways
Posts: 1308
Joined: Thu Jan 11, 2007 8:27 am

Re: JZA8615 TSB report released

Mon Sep 07, 2020 3:28 pm

par13del wrote:
A question to be asked, did the number of bags being carried onboard a/c go up when the airlines decided to charge for all checked luggage?


Yes,quite a lot. You never needed to compete for space in overheads like you do now. You had a few bags of duty free, jacket etc. Certainly no luggage like you have now.
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 14586
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

Re: JZA8615 TSB report released

Tue Sep 08, 2020 2:43 am

fly2moon wrote:
Many cars now have automatic braking systems available. How difficult would it be to equip fuel trucks and other airport vehicles with similar systems to prevent future collisions?


I'm not aware of a commercially available AEB system that would have prevented this accident in view of the likely weight of the fuel truck, the angle of the collision, the relatively low speeds, and the poor weather and visibility. And the sensing difficulties that an AEB system would have make it questionable whether FCW would have had any effect either. The technological aid the fuel truck probably needed most was exactly what Menzies ultimately installed: a camera to help with the poor rightward visibility.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
rbavfan
Posts: 3628
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2015 5:53 am

Re: JZA8615 TSB report released

Tue Sep 08, 2020 4:07 am

ERAUMBA wrote:
Why is this being discussed?

When did we a.net addicts become the legislative branch of ICAO/JAA/FAA etc?

This incident, while dangerous, highlights ONE thing everyone has disregarded or failed to see:

This WAS NOT a traditional “evacuation” and all of this conjecture and attempt to rule the regulations is futile. Passengers evacuated, the aircraft was saved and there were no casualties.

Let’s not devolve into a legislative affairs session about Grandma taking her hatbox off while “rapidly deplaning” and cussing out the stewardess for acting slowly during a panic.

Again, the finer points of legislating evacuation protocol:

-Which legislative/regulatory body enacts such rule(s)?

-Who, pray tell, is to monitor a fiery evacuation (on scene as suggested) and pursue said victims evacuating with their luggage??

-Which agency and in which jurisdiction is the accused charged and brought into custody???

-You cannot “regulate” or “prosecute” panic.

Mods, lock this off.




"Who, pray tell, is to monitor a fiery evacuation (on scene as suggested) and pursue said victims evacuating with their luggage??"

Very easy to tell if they took their carry on. The passengers are taken to a single place and interviewed as well as allowed to call family. If they have their bags & some do not. Those having their bags are obviously guilty of taking their bag with them. Otherwise how do they have it! It should still be on the plane.

I have always supported making passengers take the carry on bags that meet the limits. If they are too big. in the hold they go. If you can't deal with that then don't fly. If the personal item is larger than the allows size. It's tagged and cargo hold bound as well. I always carry a list of my meds in my wallet so if I loose the meds in an accident & can get them replaced in plenty of time. Too many entitled people taking too much on the plane and think they are above others.

And they do need to make the overhead bins lock & tell passengers they will not be unlocked until we stop at the gate. Sorry in advance if your time is more important than the safety of other people, but these are the rules.
 
rbavfan
Posts: 3628
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2015 5:53 am

Re: JZA8615 TSB report released

Tue Sep 08, 2020 4:13 am

par13del wrote:
A question to be asked, did the number of bags being carried onboard a/c go up when the airlines decided to charge for all checked luggage?


Yes also some people wearing multiple layers of clothes.

Here is a thought you get one bag with size and weight limit on board. If it's overweight or oversize limits you pay $50 (vs $25 to $35 for a checked bag) as an enticement to not cheat. We should have went with the Cabin OK concept. We take way too much into the cabin.
 
rbavfan
Posts: 3628
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2015 5:53 am

Re: JZA8615 TSB report released

Tue Sep 08, 2020 4:27 am

FluidFlow wrote:
Too many people here are post bad about people taking their stuff, delaying evacuation, people should be banned, bla bla bla but I bet no one was ever in a true emergency situation. Around 20 years ago I was involved in a car crash with multiple cars. Luckily I only had a minor arm injury but some people got it worse. Anyway I saw how hard it was for the fire brigade to calm down a panicked man and another run away from the scene along the highway and they had to search for him. I actually don't know when and where they found him. People can react absolutely crazy in certain situations and their brain just stops "functioning" and everything switches to an unconscious mode.

No one can say how people react, and punishing people for reacting a certain way in an emergency is a really patronising way of thinking especially when you have no clue how you would react but tell on the internet you would have reacted exactly how you should.


Really people carried things on years ago and did not take them when they evacuated the plane. This is a new thing and it has everything to do with self absorbed people. People panicked years ago & followed the rules. Now days everyone only follows the rules THEY feel are acceptable to them. Yet many still will take their bag & bitch about someone else doing the same.

It's about our lack of desire to be inconvenienced. When you drink and get in a car & injure someone you are inconvenienced. You go to jail or get fined. There is no difference, That same drunk drivers minds are in the same state as your person panicing. So why is it ok to take the drunk to jail. After all they alcohol others fed him over and over kept him from making the right choice. Just as the guy taking his bag made the wrong choice and someone died.
 
FluidFlow
Posts: 726
Joined: Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:39 am

Re: JZA8615 TSB report released

Tue Sep 08, 2020 6:36 am

rbavfan wrote:
FluidFlow wrote:
Too many people here are post bad about people taking their stuff, delaying evacuation, people should be banned, bla bla bla but I bet no one was ever in a true emergency situation. Around 20 years ago I was involved in a car crash with multiple cars. Luckily I only had a minor arm injury but some people got it worse. Anyway I saw how hard it was for the fire brigade to calm down a panicked man and another run away from the scene along the highway and they had to search for him. I actually don't know when and where they found him. People can react absolutely crazy in certain situations and their brain just stops "functioning" and everything switches to an unconscious mode.

No one can say how people react, and punishing people for reacting a certain way in an emergency is a really patronising way of thinking especially when you have no clue how you would react but tell on the internet you would have reacted exactly how you should.


Really people carried things on years ago and did not take them when they evacuated the plane. This is a new thing and it has everything to do with self absorbed people. People panicked years ago & followed the rules. Now days everyone only follows the rules THEY feel are acceptable to them. Yet many still will take their bag & bitch about someone else doing the same.

It's about our lack of desire to be inconvenienced. When you drink and get in a car & injure someone you are inconvenienced. You go to jail or get fined. There is no difference, That same drunk drivers minds are in the same state as your person panicing. So why is it ok to take the drunk to jail. After all they alcohol others fed him over and over kept him from making the right choice. Just as the guy taking his bag made the wrong choice and someone died.


Congratulation to comparing a psychological shock to drink driving. Luckily the world is so simple and we can move on from here.
 
ERAUMBA
Posts: 43
Joined: Thu Nov 28, 2019 6:08 pm

Re: JZA8615 TSB report released

Tue Sep 08, 2020 1:20 pm

rbavfan wrote:
ERAUMBA wrote:
Why is this being discussed?

When did we a.net addicts become the legislative branch of ICAO/JAA/FAA etc?

This incident, while dangerous, highlights ONE thing everyone has disregarded or failed to see:

This WAS NOT a traditional “evacuation” and all of this conjecture and attempt to rule the regulations is futile. Passengers evacuated, the aircraft was saved and there were no casualties.

Let’s not devolve into a legislative affairs session about Grandma taking her hatbox off while “rapidly deplaning” and cussing out the stewardess for acting slowly during a panic.

Again, the finer points of legislating evacuation protocol:

-Which legislative/regulatory body enacts such rule(s)?

-Who, pray tell, is to monitor a fiery evacuation (on scene as suggested) and pursue said victims evacuating with their luggage??

-Which agency and in which jurisdiction is the accused charged and brought into custody???

-You cannot “regulate” or “prosecute” panic.

Mods, lock this off.




"Who, pray tell, is to monitor a fiery evacuation (on scene as suggested) and pursue said victims evacuating with their luggage??"

Very easy to tell if they took their carry on. The passengers are taken to a single place and interviewed as well as allowed to call family. If they have their bags & some do not. Those having their bags are obviously guilty of taking their bag with them. Otherwise how do they have it! It should still be on the plane.


So, now you suggest we detain passengers post-evacuation to interview them about evacuating with their carry-in bags? And allow them only one phone call?? Let’s NOT mention the fact that you are finding them GUILTY of the a.net crime.

This is ridiculous, absolutely ridiculous.

How old are you? Have you some type of formal education or are you a teenager behind a keyboard?? This thread and your suggestions are bothersome and do not contribute to an intelligent dialogue regarding this subject.
 
ERAUMBA
Posts: 43
Joined: Thu Nov 28, 2019 6:08 pm

Re: JZA8615 TSB report released

Tue Sep 08, 2020 1:26 pm

Clydenairways wrote:
par13del wrote:
A question to be asked, did the number of bags being carried onboard a/c go up when the airlines decided to charge for all checked luggage?


Yes,quite a lot. You never needed to compete for space in overheads like you do now. You had a few bags of duty free, jacket etc. Certainly no luggage like you have now.


There is not one single airliner flying today where you have to fight for carry-on bag space. Have you flown anywhere since March or April? I fly almost DAILY and the conditions you speak of no longer exist. Moot point.
 
ERAUMBA
Posts: 43
Joined: Thu Nov 28, 2019 6:08 pm

Re: JZA8615 TSB report released

Tue Sep 08, 2020 1:42 pm

ERAUMBA wrote:
Clydenairways wrote:
par13del wrote:
A question to be asked, did the number of bags being carried onboard a/c go up when the airlines decided to charge for all checked luggage?


Yes,quite a lot. You never needed to compete for space in overheads like you do now. You had a few bags of duty free, jacket etc. Certainly no luggage like you have now.


There is not one single airliner flying today where you have to fight for carry-on bag space. Have you flown anywhere since March or April? I fly almost DAILY and the conditions you speak of no longer exist.

Furthermore, the institution of fees for baggage only created a lack of bin space on a.net. Overhead bins have been stuffed full for decades. Where do you live? In a vacuum?? Really, let’s get out of your 70’s mindset and into the 90’s, at least.

Moot point, no facts, completely ridiculous.
 
IFlyVeryLittle
Posts: 119
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2018 7:31 pm

Re: JZA8615 TSB report released

Tue Sep 08, 2020 2:03 pm

While not condoning passengers disobeying orders (or logic) to evacuate while carrying their carry-ons, it's certainly understandable from their point of view. Obviously in a situation of total destruction, they're not getting anything back. But can you imagine, in the most innocuous of precautionary evacuations, the rigamarole passengers will have in perhaps one day being reunited with their belongings, such as medicine, important work files/documents, etc. Of course its wrong and of course it might endanger lives. But some people are people and they make decisions. Do we want flight crews arguing with passengers at the door or so we want passengers getting off the plane.
 
OB1504
Posts: 3982
Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2004 5:10 am

Re: JZA8615 TSB report released

Tue Sep 08, 2020 5:50 pm

fly2moon wrote:
Many cars now have automatic braking systems available. How difficult would it be to equip fuel trucks and other airport vehicles with similar systems to prevent future collisions?


Given how congested the ramp areas can be and how carelessly some people drive on the ramp, I think any such system would constantly be slamming on the brakes and might cause more accidents than it prevents. A fully loaded fuel tanker can weigh well over 100,000 pounds and I would rather not slam on the brakes unless absolutely necessary. Plus in many cases you have to maneuver extremely close to the aircraft to be able to service it.
 
kalvado
Posts: 2898
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 am

Re: JZA8615 TSB report released

Tue Sep 08, 2020 6:03 pm

OB1504 wrote:
fly2moon wrote:
Many cars now have automatic braking systems available. How difficult would it be to equip fuel trucks and other airport vehicles with similar systems to prevent future collisions?


Given how congested the ramp areas can be and how carelessly some people drive on the ramp, I think any such system would constantly be slamming on the brakes and might cause more accidents than it prevents. A fully loaded fuel tanker can weigh well over 100,000 pounds and I would rather not slam on the brakes unless absolutely necessary. Plus in many cases you have to maneuver extremely close to the aircraft to be able to service it.

In this particular case, report presents a cartoon of fuel truck driver's field of view. Suddenly it turns out that field of view is significantly restricted and driver physically cannot see a lot of things they should see.
I am almost at the point when I see a need for a responsible adult being appointed to supervise aviation authorities. A lot of things look really amateurish...
 
zuckie13
Posts: 314
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:23 pm

Re: JZA8615 TSB report released

Tue Sep 08, 2020 6:08 pm

So, everybody seems focused on the passenger bags. I'm more concerned about the failure of communication between the cockpit and the cabin to make sure everybody knew what type of evacuation was ultimately desired by the cockpit. Sounds like after initially wanting a rapid deplanement (which is what actually happened for the most part), the Captain wanted to switch to a full evacuation, but apparently nobody could hear that announcement, including the Flight Attendant.

My question is, do planes need a much louder system to make sure a critical instruction like that can be communicated and/or more clear obvious visual and audio signals beyond a standard announcement? I mean, if a fire alarm goes off in a building - you know it and it does not shut up until everyone is out, so why don't we do the same in an airplane?
 
kalvado
Posts: 2898
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 am

Re: JZA8615 TSB report released

Tue Sep 08, 2020 8:15 pm

zuckie13 wrote:
So, everybody seems focused on the passenger bags. I'm more concerned about the failure of communication between the cockpit and the cabin to make sure everybody knew what type of evacuation was ultimately desired by the cockpit. Sounds like after initially wanting a rapid deplanement (which is what actually happened for the most part), the Captain wanted to switch to a full evacuation, but apparently nobody could hear that announcement, including the Flight Attendant.

My question is, do planes need a much louder system to make sure a critical instruction like that can be communicated and/or more clear obvious visual and audio signals beyond a standard announcement? I mean, if a fire alarm goes off in a building - you know it and it does not shut up until everyone is out, so why don't we do the same in an airplane?

One of the aspects here - captain got injured, rib cracks. Impact was near his seat.. Among other things, that makes breathing painful (and I am talking from the first hand experience on ribs problems)
I can imagine captain having difficulty talking - that definitely didn't help the situation.
 
OB1504
Posts: 3982
Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2004 5:10 am

Re: JZA8615 TSB report released

Wed Sep 09, 2020 2:58 am

kalvado wrote:
OB1504 wrote:
fly2moon wrote:
Many cars now have automatic braking systems available. How difficult would it be to equip fuel trucks and other airport vehicles with similar systems to prevent future collisions?


Given how congested the ramp areas can be and how carelessly some people drive on the ramp, I think any such system would constantly be slamming on the brakes and might cause more accidents than it prevents. A fully loaded fuel tanker can weigh well over 100,000 pounds and I would rather not slam on the brakes unless absolutely necessary. Plus in many cases you have to maneuver extremely close to the aircraft to be able to service it.

In this particular case, report presents a cartoon of fuel truck driver's field of view. Suddenly it turns out that field of view is significantly restricted and driver physically cannot see a lot of things they should see.
I am almost at the point when I see a need for a responsible adult being appointed to supervise aviation authorities. A lot of things look really amateurish...


Oof, I’d heard that the visibility out of that kind of fuel tanker was poor but I didn’t realize just how poor. I’m now very thankful that my company only uses tankers with full width cabs.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos