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barefootchris
Topic Author
Posts: 19
Joined: Sun Mar 10, 2019 5:26 pm

HNL Emergency System Issue

Wed Sep 09, 2020 6:28 pm

~~Barefoot Chris
LAST FLIGHT: AS1138 SFO-PHL
NEXT FLIGHT: Not soon enough
 
ERAUMBA
Posts: 47
Joined: Thu Nov 28, 2019 6:08 pm

Re: HNL Emergency System Issue

Wed Sep 09, 2020 7:17 pm

The article states that the alerting system being out of service did not impact the Atlas Air emergency landing. It must be a slow news day in Honolulu.
 
kalvado
Posts: 2971
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 am

Re: HNL Emergency System Issue

Wed Sep 09, 2020 7:21 pm

ERAUMBA wrote:
The article states that the alerting system being out of service did not impact the Atlas Air emergency landing. It must be a slow news day in Honolulu.

It didn't impact Atlas event because there was no accident requiring actual massive emergency response. Which is not an excuse at all.
 
Antarius
Posts: 2991
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:27 pm

Re: HNL Emergency System Issue

Wed Sep 09, 2020 7:22 pm

ERAUMBA wrote:
The article states that the alerting system being out of service did not impact the Atlas Air emergency landing. It must be a slow news day in Honolulu.


That's because the Atlas landing ended up being a non-issue. As in, the aircraft came back and landed successfully.

Had the aircraft overshot the runway or had its gear collapse or <insert possible outcome of emergency>, this could have been a much more serious issue.
Militant Centrist
Let's all just use some common sense
 
Antarius
Posts: 2991
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:27 pm

Re: HNL Emergency System Issue

Wed Sep 09, 2020 7:23 pm

kalvado wrote:
ERAUMBA wrote:
The article states that the alerting system being out of service did not impact the Atlas Air emergency landing. It must be a slow news day in Honolulu.

It didn't impact Atlas event because there was no accident requiring actual massive emergency response. Which is not an excuse at all.


This. they were lucky.
Militant Centrist
Let's all just use some common sense
 
ERAUMBA
Posts: 47
Joined: Thu Nov 28, 2019 6:08 pm

Re: HNL Emergency System Issue

Wed Sep 09, 2020 8:35 pm

Antarius wrote:
ERAUMBA wrote:
The article states that the alerting system being out of service did not impact the Atlas Air emergency landing. It must be a slow news day in Honolulu.


That's because the Atlas landing ended up being a non-issue. As in, the aircraft came back and landed successfully.

Had the aircraft overshot the runway or had its gear collapse or <insert possible outcome of emergency>, this could have been a much more serious issue.


How?

I am interested to hear your explanation.

As someone that was based in HNL for nearly five years as a widebody F/O, I am familiar with the combined Military/Civil airport infrastructure you speak of.

Are you insinuating that an aircraft could crash there and no one would know? Or are you inferring that there’s no other way of communication from the tower cab other than the the radio frequencies??

I have never been in a tower cab that does not have multiple phone lines, local airport authority radio, and, at minimum, a cellular telephone.

Again, a non-issue, even as reported by the local news. An otherwise slow news day on the island.
 
Antarius
Posts: 2991
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:27 pm

Re: HNL Emergency System Issue

Wed Sep 09, 2020 8:49 pm

ERAUMBA wrote:
Antarius wrote:
ERAUMBA wrote:
The article states that the alerting system being out of service did not impact the Atlas Air emergency landing. It must be a slow news day in Honolulu.


That's because the Atlas landing ended up being a non-issue. As in, the aircraft came back and landed successfully.

Had the aircraft overshot the runway or had its gear collapse or <insert possible outcome of emergency>, this could have been a much more serious issue.


How?

I am interested to hear your explanation.

As someone that was based in HNL for nearly five years as a widebody F/O, I am familiar with the combined Military/Civil airport infrastructure you speak of.

Are you insinuating that an aircraft could crash there and no one would know? Or are you inferring that there’s no other way of communication from the tower cab other than the the radio frequencies??

I have never been in a tower cab that does not have multiple phone lines, local airport authority radio, and, at minimum, a cellular telephone.

Again, a non-issue, even as reported by the local news. An otherwise slow news day on the island.


Who said that no one would know? The point being made is timing. Yes, everyone would know, but when speed is of the essence, every second counts. EK 521 - emergency services were at the aircraft within 90 seconds.

I fail to understand the counterpoint. If these systems aren't necessary or important, why have them in the first place?
Militant Centrist
Let's all just use some common sense
 
kalvado
Posts: 2971
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 am

Re: HNL Emergency System Issue

Wed Sep 09, 2020 8:57 pm

ERAUMBA wrote:
Antarius wrote:
ERAUMBA wrote:
The article states that the alerting system being out of service did not impact the Atlas Air emergency landing. It must be a slow news day in Honolulu.


That's because the Atlas landing ended up being a non-issue. As in, the aircraft came back and landed successfully.

Had the aircraft overshot the runway or had its gear collapse or <insert possible outcome of emergency>, this could have been a much more serious issue.


How?

I am interested to hear your explanation.

As someone that was based in HNL for nearly five years as a widebody F/O, I am familiar with the combined Military/Civil airport infrastructure you speak of.

Are you insinuating that an aircraft could crash there and no one would know? Or are you inferring that there’s no other way of communication from the tower cab other than the the radio frequencies??

I have never been in a tower cab that does not have multiple phone lines, local airport authority radio, and, at minimum, a cellular telephone.

Again, a non-issue, even as reported by the local news. An otherwise slow news day on the island.

Reading original link is grossly unpopular these days - so let me bring some quotes:
The primary crash network allows everyone on the federal level to be notified at one time, including the FAA tower, Hickam tower and airfield, the Joint Dispatch Center and Aircraft Rescue and Firefighting.
Because the system has been down, each agency has to be called one by one — using a landline.
Aviation expert Peter Forman said that alone is going to cause a delay.
And those wasted minutes “could be the difference between life and death so that’s really important.”

In simple words: ARFF couldn't be contacted fast enough. Not a big deal as there was no real work for them. Too bad as HNL shouldn't be operating without ARFF.
The secondary crash network is a separate system to notify all state level responders: Airport medical staff, the Sheriffs Division, and the airport duty manager, to name a few. Sources say it took multiple attempts before it worked.

In simple words, they couldn't call 911. Again, should there be a medical emergency or injury - that could be a problem. If there was no need for medical help - makes no difference in outcome of this particular even.
 
DEN1895
Posts: 212
Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2018 5:21 am

Re: HNL Emergency System Issue

Wed Sep 09, 2020 9:04 pm

ERAUMBA wrote:
Antarius wrote:
ERAUMBA wrote:
The article states that the alerting system being out of service did not impact the Atlas Air emergency landing. It must be a slow news day in Honolulu.


That's because the Atlas landing ended up being a non-issue. As in, the aircraft came back and landed successfully.

Had the aircraft overshot the runway or had its gear collapse or <insert possible outcome of emergency>, this could have been a much more serious issue.


How?

I am interested to hear your explanation.

As someone that was based in HNL for nearly five years as a widebody F/O, I am familiar with the combined Military/Civil airport infrastructure you speak of.

Are you insinuating that an aircraft could crash there and no one would know? Or are you inferring that there’s no other way of communication from the tower cab other than the the radio frequencies??

I have never been in a tower cab that does not have multiple phone lines, local airport authority radio, and, at minimum, a cellular telephone.

Again, a non-issue, even as reported by the local news. An otherwise slow news day on the island.


It is not that they wouldn't know it is more the amount of time to notify all the different agencies could make a difference. All commercial airports have "crash phones" that should notify Fire,Medics, Police, and airport ops. If the tower had to call each agency individually and give the full details (A/C type, fuel, souls, etc) which takes 30-45 seconds, by the time that the last agency is notified 2 minutes may have passed and that could be a huge difference if an aircraft is on fire. At my airport we test the system 4 times a day, everyday. If the system ever stops working an emergency work order is placed to get it fixed that day.
 
ggflyboy
Posts: 50
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2012 3:10 am

Re: HNL Emergency System Issue

Wed Sep 09, 2020 9:58 pm

Not sure why issues always have to be binary.

Was there grave risk because the crash phone wasn’t working? For most cases, no. For some corner cases, the workarounds would be slow, so not an ideal long-term configuration. And importantly, the workarounds likely depend on systems outside the immediate control of the FAA (e.g., cell towers, land line hubs).

Is it dumb to have safety equipment that is not functional or maintained? Yes. Fix it. Do not count on redundancies now placed outside of direct control. If not fixed promptly, what else might compound with it? What if a week later, there is a VOIP or cell outage?

Millions of dollars of ARFF equipment should be supported by a robust comm architecture. Why risk becoming a contributing factor facepalm in an NTSB report?
 
MrBretz
Posts: 569
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2016 9:13 pm

Re: HNL Emergency System Issue

Wed Sep 09, 2020 10:36 pm

The video did say that the 757 was able to climb to sufficient altitude before returning on one engine. It would have been a different story if they would have had to make an immediate return to the airport apparently. And, even though it might have been a slow newsday, I agree with ggflyboy. It "is dumb to have safety equipment that is not functional or maintained". And he is being polite.

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