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escapedia
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KSA and Bahrain grant overflight to Israeli commercial flights

Wed Sep 09, 2020 9:22 pm

origin from Israel to fly over their air space, not only to the UAE but all destinations (i.e.east bound), says Jared Kushner.
https://translate.google.co.il/translate?hl=iw&sl=auto&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ynet.co.il%2Fnews%2Farticle%2FB14eyp8Nv

The meaning is: El Al and other Israeli carriers, and perhaps other airlines such as Korean Air, Cathay Pacific, could fly over KSA, which will significantly shorten the flight time between Israel and the Far East.
 
panam330
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Re: Both KSA and Bahrain grants all commercial flights

Wed Sep 09, 2020 9:28 pm

Without getting into the politics of it all, I wonder if this is really driven by the desire to collect overflight fees, because revenue is revenue at this point, or to truly be diplomatic. Either way, it's quite the positive development for all involved - and it's about time.
 
escapedia
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Re: Both KSA and Bahrain grants all commercial flights

Wed Sep 09, 2020 9:33 pm

panam330 wrote:
I wonder if this is really driven by the desire to collect overflight fees

Whatever the fees are, I guess it'll be cheaper than a detour over the Red Sea into the Indian Ocean.
On the other hand, EY and EK could save a little fuel flying over Israel to Europe rather than over the Sinai.
 
Antarius
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Re: Both KSA and Bahrain grants all commercial flights

Wed Sep 09, 2020 9:33 pm

panam330 wrote:
Without getting into the politics of it all, I wonder if this is really driven by the desire to collect overflight fees, because revenue is revenue at this point, or to truly be diplomatic. Either way, it's quite the positive development for all involved - and it's about time.


It is politics though. I doubt overfly came into it. It's not THAT much money.

In a nutshell, the enemy of my enemy is my friend.
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davidjohnson6
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Re: Both KSA and Bahrain grants all commercial flights

Wed Sep 09, 2020 9:41 pm

I thought diplomacy was all about looking after a country's interests.... KSA and Bahrain will almost certainly have asked for and have been granted something in return for overflight rights
 
superjeff
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Re: Both KSA and Bahrain grants all commercial flights

Wed Sep 09, 2020 10:50 pm

Whatever it is, whether it is "the enemy of my enemy is my friend," the country's own interests, or something else, the only reason this hasn't happened earlier was because the Palestinians wouldn't accept something. Saudi Arabia has previously tried tow work something behind the scenes, as have others, but the Palestinians have refused. There are solid reasons for a thaw after 72 years, and there's no benefit to not doing something.
 
Antarius
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Re: Both KSA and Bahrain grants all commercial flights

Wed Sep 09, 2020 10:54 pm

superjeff wrote:
Whatever it is, whether it is "the enemy of my enemy is my friend," the country's own interests, or something else, the only reason this hasn't happened earlier was because the Palestinians wouldn't accept something. Saudi Arabia has previously tried tow work something behind the scenes, as have others, but the Palestinians have refused. There are solid reasons for a thaw after 72 years, and there's no benefit to not doing something.


Also, don't underestimate the desperation of the Saudi's and their budget deficit. The gravy train is over thanks to two, extraordinarily stupid oil price wars by MbS. KSA is staring at a new reality here and aren't going to be able to unilaterally drive foreign policy anymore.
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Re: Both KSA and Bahrain grants all commercial over-flight rights to/from Israel

Wed Sep 09, 2020 10:59 pm

Wow. I'm sure Saudi will gain reciprocity, as will Bahrain and the UAE. Even without politics, it is easy to see the cost savings.

Depending on the wording, this allows some more efficient India to Europe flights (some, not to Northern Europe, but some).

For aviation, this is huge.

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LH658
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Re: KSA and Bahrain grant overflight to Israeli commercial flights

Wed Sep 09, 2020 11:13 pm

They need new streams of revenue.
 
peterinlisbon
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Re: Both KSA and Bahrain grants all commercial flights

Wed Sep 09, 2020 11:17 pm

I don't think Israel is big enough for overflights to be important for any country except Jordan, but I suppose it does give another option to Gulf airlines that want to avoid Syrian airspace heading west.

Economically, the benefit to the Gulf airlines is that they'll get traffic between Israel and Asia whilst for Israel this a huge benefit because they can finally fly to Asia without making a huge expensive detour.
 
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RyanairGuru
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Re: Both KSA and Bahrain grants all commercial flights

Wed Sep 09, 2020 11:49 pm

peterinlisbon wrote:
I don't think Israel is big enough for overflights to be important for any country except Jordan, but I suppose it does give another option to Gulf airlines that want to avoid Syrian airspace heading west.

Economically, the benefit to the Gulf airlines is that they'll get traffic between Israel and Asia whilst for Israel this a huge benefit because they can finally fly to Asia without making a huge expensive detour.


It would actually save quite a bit of distance from DXB/AUH and Southern Europe. Being able to route KSA>Jordan>Israel will save several hundred miles compared to having to stay further south over the Red Sea and up through Egypt.
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FlyingDove
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Re: KSA and Bahrain grant overflight to Israeli commercial flights

Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:50 am

Biggest winners here are Israeli airlines which save not just fuel but HOURS in the air on eastbound routes. This also opens up new southbound lanes on their Africa routes. This is also the first time TLV has a chance of becoming a transit hub for LY. Interesting times.
 
davidjohnson6
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Re: KSA and Bahrain grant overflight to Israeli commercial flights

Thu Sep 10, 2020 5:28 am

I think it's extremely unlikely that TLV will become a transit hub any time soon - the security screening requirement is just one factor and I'm dubious that the airport ia built to handle large numbers of transit pax
 
dredgy
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Re: Both KSA and Bahrain grants all commercial flights

Thu Sep 10, 2020 6:12 am

davidjohnson6 wrote:
I thought diplomacy was all about looking after a country's interests.... KSA and Bahrain will almost certainly have asked for and have been granted something in return for overflight rights


Yes, they have someone well-armed, financially stable and politcally well-connected to help them take on Iran.
 
raylee67
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Re: KSA and Bahrain grant overflight to Israeli commercial flights

Thu Sep 10, 2020 7:32 am

The Bahrain overflight rights is more symbolic. Unless the flights can fly over Qatar, the rights to overfly Bahrain will most likely not be useful. KSA is certainly significant in this. Can the flights fly over Oman?
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Desertshamrock7
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Re: KSA and Bahrain grant overflight to Israeli commercial flights

Thu Sep 10, 2020 8:09 am

Raylee that is not true, Bahrain have control of the airspace over Qatar above flight level 150. It’s a hugely important airspace for all the ME carriers. If Oman gives them overflight rights too they can go directly east just under Iran. Then it’s Directly into Indian airspace south of Pakistan.
 
Avgeek21
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Re: KSA and Bahrain grant overflight to Israeli commercial flights

Thu Sep 10, 2020 11:15 am

raylee67 wrote:
The Bahrain overflight rights is more symbolic. Unless the flights can fly over Qatar, the rights to overfly Bahrain will most likely not be useful. KSA is certainly significant in this. Can the flights fly over Oman?


Exactly the opposite. Bahrains ATC controls nearly the entire Arabian Gulf Airspace. We're not just talking about the island(s) here. Just south of Kuwait until NE of Qatar you are under Bahrain radar control.
 
MLIAA
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Re: KSA and Bahrain grant overflight to Israeli commercial flights

Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:51 pm

Isn’t Qatar still blocked from KSA airspace? If so it’s a chilly day in hell that Israel is accommodated more than Qatar.
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raylee67
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Re: KSA and Bahrain grant overflight to Israeli commercial flights

Thu Sep 10, 2020 1:12 pm

Avgeek21 wrote:
raylee67 wrote:
The Bahrain overflight rights is more symbolic. Unless the flights can fly over Qatar, the rights to overfly Bahrain will most likely not be useful. KSA is certainly significant in this. Can the flights fly over Oman?


Exactly the opposite. Bahrains ATC controls nearly the entire Arabian Gulf Airspace. We're not just talking about the island(s) here. Just south of Kuwait until NE of Qatar you are under Bahrain radar control.


It's not about which ATC controls the airspace. It's about the sovereignty of the airspace.

National sovereignty extends 12nm from their natural coastline. So any airspace above the sea within 12nm of Qatar is Qatari airspace. If Qatar and Bahrain do not have a distance of 24nm, then conceptually the boundary lies in the middle. If they are more than 24nm apart, then the sea (and the airspace above) outside of the 12nm line from both sides is "international" waters and airspace.

It doesn't matter which ATC controls the airspace. If you go to openstreetmap.org, they actually show you the boundary of the sovereign airspace. There is international air space north of Qatar. So technically planes can fly over Bahrain and enter international airspace as long as they stay outside of 12nm from Qatari coast, and then they can fly east towards UAE. But that's a further way to get to UAE than flying over KSA south of Qatar. Besides, it gets you closer to Iranian airspace, which flights to/from Israel probably don't want to do unless necessary

Also note that at the narrowest point in the Gulf, the southern coast and the northern coast is less than 24nm apart. That is where Omani airspace actually meet directly with Iranian airspace. So if the flight does not have overflight rights with either Iran or Oman, it cannot follow the sea to fly from the Gulf towards Arabian Sea. It will need to overfly UAE and exits into the international airspace over Arabian Sea flying over Fujairah.
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Re: KSA and Bahrain grant overflight to Israeli commercial flights

Thu Sep 10, 2020 2:48 pm

MLIAA wrote:
Isn’t Qatar still blocked from KSA airspace? If so it’s a chilly day in hell that Israel is accommodated more than Qatar.

Yes, and Qatar's trouble was way more serious than Israel (related to ISIS)
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Avgeek21
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Re: KSA and Bahrain grant overflight to Israeli commercial flights

Thu Sep 10, 2020 3:34 pm

raylee67 wrote:
Avgeek21 wrote:
raylee67 wrote:
The Bahrain overflight rights is more symbolic. Unless the flights can fly over Qatar, the rights to overfly Bahrain will most likely not be useful. KSA is certainly significant in this. Can the flights fly over Oman?


Exactly the opposite. Bahrains ATC controls nearly the entire Arabian Gulf Airspace. We're not just talking about the island(s) here. Just south of Kuwait until NE of Qatar you are under Bahrain radar control.


It's not about which ATC controls the airspace. It's about the sovereignty of the airspace.

National sovereignty extends 12nm from their natural coastline. So any airspace above the sea within 12nm of Qatar is Qatari airspace. If Qatar and Bahrain do not have a distance of 24nm, then conceptually the boundary lies in the middle. If they are more than 24nm apart, then the sea (and the airspace above) outside of the 12nm line from both sides is "international" waters and airspace.

It doesn't matter which ATC controls the airspace. If you go to openstreetmap.org, they actually show you the boundary of the sovereign airspace. There is international air space north of Qatar. So technically planes can fly over Bahrain and enter international airspace as long as they stay outside of 12nm from Qatari coast, and then they can fly east towards UAE. But that's a further way to get to UAE than flying over KSA south of Qatar. Besides, it gets you closer to Iranian airspace, which flights to/from Israel probably don't want to do unless necessary

Also note that at the narrowest point in the Gulf, the southern coast and the northern coast is less than 24nm apart. That is where Omani airspace actually meet directly with Iranian airspace. So if the flight does not have overflight rights with either Iran or Oman, it cannot follow the sea to fly from the Gulf towards Arabian Sea. It will need to overfly UAE and exits into the international airspace over Arabian Sea flying over Fujairah.


Happy to learn something new every day. Thank you!
 
peterinlisbon
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Re: Both KSA and Bahrain grants all commercial flights

Thu Sep 10, 2020 7:05 pm

RyanairGuru wrote:
peterinlisbon wrote:
I don't think Israel is big enough for overflights to be important for any country except Jordan, but I suppose it does give another option to Gulf airlines that want to avoid Syrian airspace heading west.

Economically, the benefit to the Gulf airlines is that they'll get traffic between Israel and Asia whilst for Israel this a huge benefit because they can finally fly to Asia without making a huge expensive detour.


It would actually save quite a bit of distance from DXB/AUH and Southern Europe. Being able to route KSA>Jordan>Israel will save several hundred miles compared to having to stay further south over the Red Sea and up through Egypt.


That's interesting. Since they already have to avoid Syria already for safety reasons, having to go even further south to avoid Israel as well makes the problem worse. Where it would really make a difference is for flights from the Gulf to Beirut and Cyprus although I'm not sure if Lebanon and Israel would be able to get along to the point that they could handover flights between each other's airspace.
 
AshFlops
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Re: Both KSA and Bahrain grants all commercial flights

Thu Sep 10, 2020 7:12 pm

peterinlisbon wrote:
RyanairGuru wrote:
peterinlisbon wrote:
I don't think Israel is big enough for overflights to be important for any country except Jordan, but I suppose it does give another option to Gulf airlines that want to avoid Syrian airspace heading west.

Economically, the benefit to the Gulf airlines is that they'll get traffic between Israel and Asia whilst for Israel this a huge benefit because they can finally fly to Asia without making a huge expensive detour.


It would actually save quite a bit of distance from DXB/AUH and Southern Europe. Being able to route KSA>Jordan>Israel will save several hundred miles compared to having to stay further south over the Red Sea and up through Egypt.


That's interesting. Since they already have to avoid Syria already for safety reasons, having to go even further south to avoid Israel as well makes the problem worse. Where it would really make a difference is for flights from the Gulf to Beirut and Cyprus although I'm not sure if Lebanon and Israel would be able to get along to the point that they could handover flights between each other's airspace.


I believe that flights from DXB to BEY would have to fly close to Cyprus, as there is no handoff between Israel and Lebanon ATC. I believe that there is some Israeli law about avoiding overflight rights when one of the destination/arrival countries does not have an aviation agreement with Israel. This is why flights to Europe from Amman overfly Israel all the time, but a flight from Amman to Beirut/Tripoli/Casablanca/etc. has to fly south over Sinai.
 
peterinlisbon
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Re: Both KSA and Bahrain grants all commercial flights

Thu Sep 10, 2020 11:20 pm

AshFlops wrote:
peterinlisbon wrote:
RyanairGuru wrote:

It would actually save quite a bit of distance from DXB/AUH and Southern Europe. Being able to route KSA>Jordan>Israel will save several hundred miles compared to having to stay further south over the Red Sea and up through Egypt.


That's interesting. Since they already have to avoid Syria already for safety reasons, having to go even further south to avoid Israel as well makes the problem worse. Where it would really make a difference is for flights from the Gulf to Beirut and Cyprus although I'm not sure if Lebanon and Israel would be able to get along to the point that they could handover flights between each other's airspace.


I believe that flights from DXB to BEY would have to fly close to Cyprus, as there is no handoff between Israel and Lebanon ATC. I believe that there is some Israeli law about avoiding overflight rights when one of the destination/arrival countries does not have an aviation agreement with Israel. This is why flights to Europe from Amman overfly Israel all the time, but a flight from Amman to Beirut/Tripoli/Casablanca/etc. has to fly south over Sinai.


A plane taking off from Beirut heading south would be in Israeli airspace within about 10 minutes if it continued on runway heading. I can understand the Israelis might be nervous about what's coming in from that direction since the two countries are almost still at war and the suspicion has to be mutual. This situation has to be pretty damaging to Royal Jordanian, even though they have overflight rights, because Amman is so close to the border. In the case of MEA, it seems they have chosen to just take the risk of flying over Syria.

I was once on a flight from Amman to London and they had a very strange procedure after takeoff because we were flying over Israel. Everyone had to remain seated and with their seatbelts on until we had exited Israeli airspace (which was only about 10-15 minutes anyway).
 
AshFlops
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Re: Both KSA and Bahrain grants all commercial flights

Fri Sep 11, 2020 1:25 am

peterinlisbon wrote:
AshFlops wrote:
peterinlisbon wrote:

That's interesting. Since they already have to avoid Syria already for safety reasons, having to go even further south to avoid Israel as well makes the problem worse. Where it would really make a difference is for flights from the Gulf to Beirut and Cyprus although I'm not sure if Lebanon and Israel would be able to get along to the point that they could handover flights between each other's airspace.


I believe that flights from DXB to BEY would have to fly close to Cyprus, as there is no handoff between Israel and Lebanon ATC. I believe that there is some Israeli law about avoiding overflight rights when one of the destination/arrival countries does not have an aviation agreement with Israel. This is why flights to Europe from Amman overfly Israel all the time, but a flight from Amman to Beirut/Tripoli/Casablanca/etc. has to fly south over Sinai.


A plane taking off from Beirut heading south would be in Israeli airspace within about 10 minutes if it continued on runway heading. I can understand the Israelis might be nervous about what's coming in from that direction since the two countries are almost still at war and the suspicion has to be mutual. This situation has to be pretty damaging to Royal Jordanian, even though they have overflight rights, because Amman is so close to the border. In the case of MEA, it seems they have chosen to just take the risk of flying over Syria.

I was once on a flight from Amman to London and they had a very strange procedure after takeoff because we were flying over Israel. Everyone had to remain seated and with their seatbelts on until we had exited Israeli airspace (which was only about 10-15 minutes anyway).


and there is no ATC handoff between Lebanon and Israel. This really only affects flights to and from BEY from AMM, so the impact is minimal.
 
iadadd
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Re: Both KSA and Bahrain grants all commercial flights

Fri Sep 11, 2020 1:45 am

peterinlisbon wrote:
RyanairGuru wrote:
peterinlisbon wrote:
I don't think Israel is big enough for overflights to be important for any country except Jordan, but I suppose it does give another option to Gulf airlines that want to avoid Syrian airspace heading west.

Economically, the benefit to the Gulf airlines is that they'll get traffic between Israel and Asia whilst for Israel this a huge benefit because they can finally fly to Asia without making a huge expensive detour.


It would actually save quite a bit of distance from DXB/AUH and Southern Europe. Being able to route KSA>Jordan>Israel will save several hundred miles compared to having to stay further south over the Red Sea and up through Egypt.


That's interesting. Since they already have to avoid Syria already for safety reasons, having to go even further south to avoid Israel as well makes the problem worse. Where it would really make a difference is for flights from the Gulf to Beirut and Cyprus although I'm not sure if Lebanon and Israel would be able to get along to the point that they could handover flights between each other's airspace.


To be fair, most Gulf carriers avoid Syrian airspace for geopolitical reasons. Qatar Airways and MEA routinely use Syrian airspace , perhaps out of necessity but it's been used frequently for years now
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: KSA and Bahrain grant overflight to Israeli commercial flights

Fri Sep 11, 2020 2:13 am

Well, Israir has now applied to serve Dubai (not sure if DXB or DWC). https://www.dansdeals.com/points-travel ... next-month. I also wonder what this may mean for Phillippine Airlines if they decide to one-stop service to TLV via BOM, doing so on the A321neo...or if IndiGo were to desire to fly to TLV using a 222-seat A21N.
 
FlyHappy
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Re: KSA and Bahrain grant overflight to Israeli commercial flights

Fri Sep 11, 2020 2:27 am

Lot of technical speculation here, some of which is undoubtedly applicable, but in none is the driver - certainly not the paltry overflight fees collected by anyone.

To my eye, this is the clear result of heavy duty GeoPolitics, regional conflict, arms sales.... all kinds of things none of us are privy to.

Having said that - its a good thing. Good for Israel, good for Arab States not intent on driving Jews into the sea, good for humanity to remove even just a small and stupid obstruction recognizing our fellow humans as... well, human.

Maybe someday, ethnic politics, closed borders and arms sales in that region won't be the most striking feature.
Good on all parties for making a small step.

A little addendum: from the OP's translated article from Israeli press I noticed a link to an article titled "History in Abu Dhabi: First kosher restaurant in the capital of the Emirates" . Wow, damn cool.
 
STEADYFLYING
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Re: KSA and Bahrain grant overflight to Israeli commercial flights

Fri Sep 11, 2020 3:22 am

raylee67 wrote:
It doesn't matter which ATC controls the airspace. If you go to openstreetmap.org, they actually show you the boundary of the sovereign airspace. There is international air space north of Qatar. So technically planes can fly over Bahrain and enter international airspace as long as they stay outside of 12nm from Qatari coast, and then they can fly east towards UAE. But that's a further way to get to UAE than flying over KSA south of Qatar. Besides, it gets you closer to Iranian airspace, which flights to/from Israel probably don't want to do unless necessary.


What you're not taking into consideration is that the southern half of the UAE is nearly all Military airspace, and in order to enter the UAE from Saudi Arabia, aircraft have to fly nearly all the way to the Oman border, and then arrive in AUH or DXB from the east. Just take a look at the flight path that the LY flight to AUH had to take and you'll see why it's not shorter than flying over the gulf. https://flightaware.com/live/flight/ELY971
 
Desertshamrock7
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Re: KSA and Bahrain grant overflight to Israeli commercial flights

Fri Sep 11, 2020 8:40 am

Raylee, well even if that is the case there is still a huge corridor east of Qatar in international waters between Qatar and Iran. El Al have never been shy of flying along corridors. I’ve read it’s debatable the upper limit of sovereign airspace I agree with that,but all UAE carrier transit this airspace on a daily bases with no issues from Qatar. Qatar airways is forced to be below flight level 150 on a daily bases transiting this area before entering Iran. They are also contesting being restricted by Bahrain in the courts.
 
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Re: KSA and Bahrain grant overflight to Israeli commercial flights

Fri Sep 11, 2020 1:25 pm

raylee67 wrote:
Avgeek21 wrote:
raylee67 wrote:
The Bahrain overflight rights is more symbolic. Unless the flights can fly over Qatar, the rights to overfly Bahrain will most likely not be useful. KSA is certainly significant in this. Can the flights fly over Oman?


Exactly the opposite. Bahrains ATC controls nearly the entire Arabian Gulf Airspace. We're not just talking about the island(s) here. Just south of Kuwait until NE of Qatar you are under Bahrain radar control.


It's not about which ATC controls the airspace. It's about the sovereignty of the airspace.

National sovereignty extends 12nm from their natural coastline. So any airspace above the sea within 12nm of Qatar is Qatari airspace. If Qatar and Bahrain do not have a distance of 24nm, then conceptually the boundary lies in the middle. If they are more than 24nm apart, then the sea (and the airspace above) outside of the 12nm line from both sides is "international" waters and airspace.

It doesn't matter which ATC controls the airspace. If you go to openstreetmap.org, they actually show you the boundary of the sovereign airspace. There is international air space north of Qatar. So technically planes can fly over Bahrain and enter international airspace as long as they stay outside of 12nm from Qatari coast, and then they can fly east towards UAE. But that's a further way to get to UAE than flying over KSA south of Qatar. Besides, it gets you closer to Iranian airspace, which flights to/from Israel probably don't want to do unless necessary

Also note that at the narrowest point in the Gulf, the southern coast and the northern coast is less than 24nm apart. That is where Omani airspace actually meet directly with Iranian airspace. So if the flight does not have overflight rights with either Iran or Oman, it cannot follow the sea to fly from the Gulf towards Arabian Sea. It will need to overfly UAE and exits into the international airspace over Arabian Sea flying over Fujairah.


There are several inaccurate statements in this post.

But that's a further way to get to UAE than flying over KSA south of Qatar. This is incorrect. The shortest route between TLV and DXB goes (approximately) over Amman and then just south of the Saudi-Iraqi border then across the central Gulf but well north of 12nm from the Qatari coast and with plenty of space to stay away from Iranian airspace. BTW, you can see Qatar airspace in the image on this page in white: https://aviation.stackexchange.com/ques ... determined . Shortest-route flights (or very close to it) to DXB from Israel would be well in the blue area.

Also note that at the narrowest point in the Gulf, the southern coast and the northern coast is less than 24nm apart. That is where Omani airspace actually meet directly with Iranian airspace. So if the flight does not have overflight rights with either Iran or Oman, it cannot follow the sea to fly from the Gulf towards Arabian Sea. It will need to overfly UAE and exits into the international airspace over Arabian Sea flying over Fujairah.

I think there is an extremely high likelihood that Oman will allow overflights. This would be important for flights to say Australia but for Israeli carriers' "traditional" destinations in south Asia (i.e., India and Thailand), flying over the UAE would actually be shorter than flying over mainland Oman.
 
AshFlops
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Re: KSA and Bahrain grant overflight to Israeli commercial flights

Fri Sep 11, 2020 3:06 pm

flybaby wrote:
raylee67 wrote:
Avgeek21 wrote:

Exactly the opposite. Bahrains ATC controls nearly the entire Arabian Gulf Airspace. We're not just talking about the island(s) here. Just south of Kuwait until NE of Qatar you are under Bahrain radar control.


It's not about which ATC controls the airspace. It's about the sovereignty of the airspace.

National sovereignty extends 12nm from their natural coastline. So any airspace above the sea within 12nm of Qatar is Qatari airspace. If Qatar and Bahrain do not have a distance of 24nm, then conceptually the boundary lies in the middle. If they are more than 24nm apart, then the sea (and the airspace above) outside of the 12nm line from both sides is "international" waters and airspace.

It doesn't matter which ATC controls the airspace. If you go to openstreetmap.org, they actually show you the boundary of the sovereign airspace. There is international air space north of Qatar. So technically planes can fly over Bahrain and enter international airspace as long as they stay outside of 12nm from Qatari coast, and then they can fly east towards UAE. But that's a further way to get to UAE than flying over KSA south of Qatar. Besides, it gets you closer to Iranian airspace, which flights to/from Israel probably don't want to do unless necessary

Also note that at the narrowest point in the Gulf, the southern coast and the northern coast is less than 24nm apart. That is where Omani airspace actually meet directly with Iranian airspace. So if the flight does not have overflight rights with either Iran or Oman, it cannot follow the sea to fly from the Gulf towards Arabian Sea. It will need to overfly UAE and exits into the international airspace over Arabian Sea flying over Fujairah.


There are several inaccurate statements in this post.

But that's a further way to get to UAE than flying over KSA south of Qatar. This is incorrect. The shortest route between TLV and DXB goes (approximately) over Amman and then just south of the Saudi-Iraqi border then across the central Gulf but well north of 12nm from the Qatari coast and with plenty of space to stay away from Iranian airspace. BTW, you can see Qatar airspace in the image on this page in white: https://aviation.stackexchange.com/ques ... determined . Shortest-route flights (or very close to it) to DXB from Israel would be well in the blue area.

Also note that at the narrowest point in the Gulf, the southern coast and the northern coast is less than 24nm apart. That is where Omani airspace actually meet directly with Iranian airspace. So if the flight does not have overflight rights with either Iran or Oman, it cannot follow the sea to fly from the Gulf towards Arabian Sea. It will need to overfly UAE and exits into the international airspace over Arabian Sea flying over Fujairah.

I think there is an extremely high likelihood that Oman will allow overflights. This would be important for flights to say Australia but for Israeli carriers' "traditional" destinations in south Asia (i.e., India and Thailand), flying over the UAE would actually be shorter than flying over mainland Oman.


Back in December 2018, when Netanyahu visited Oman, Sultan Qaboos said that he was opening the Omani airspace to Israeli overflight. This should already be in effect.
 
flybaby
Posts: 247
Joined: Fri Apr 14, 2006 5:20 am

Re: KSA and Bahrain grant overflight to Israeli commercial flights

Fri Sep 11, 2020 3:55 pm

This development can be a sea-change for Israeli carriers.

Currently the number of transit pax in TLV is practically nil and this could increase this. I don't think security is quite that big of an issue given that the folks arriving at TLV would have already have had to go through whatever security related to flying to Israel anyway (while having no intention of actually entering Israel).

It should be noted that according to what Kushner said, the new agreement is reciprocal. This will allow Gulf carriers to overfly Israel, with Bahrain and UAE carriers receiving the most benefit from this given their geographical location (compared to Saudi carriers). One issue though is that the under-funded Nicosia FIR already has a quite a difficult time handling the current amount of traffic passing through it, plus having to deal with interference from the unrecognized/illegal Ercan control on the Turkish side of the Island. Adding a bunch of EK, ER, QR and some SV flights could present some significant challenges to Cyprus in the realm of ATC.
 
flybaby
Posts: 247
Joined: Fri Apr 14, 2006 5:20 am

Re: KSA and Bahrain grant overflight to Israeli commercial flights

Fri Sep 11, 2020 4:27 pm

escapedia wrote:
...

The meaning is: El Al and other Israeli carriers, and perhaps other airlines such as Korean Air, Cathay Pacific, could fly over KSA, which will significantly shorten the flight time between Israel and the Far East.


This doesn't really help with many Far East destinations because El Al is not particularly harmed by the inability to overfly Saudi/Bahraini/UAE/Oman airspace to many Far East destinations. They go up to Turkey then fly eastwards from there. To say PEK, the route over Turkey adds less than 5% more flight distance (see http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=tlv-pek%2C ... =wls&DU=km ). Flying over Saudi would actually be longer. With respect to HKG there is no difference really because either way LY can't fly over Iran or Pakistan.

Where it does help (reduction of about 2 hours flight time) is to the very southern Far East (e.g. Thailand), South Asia, and Australia. If they cold get permission to overfly Indonesia (more likely) or Malaysia (less likely) then LY could reach Singapore in about 10 hours flying time from TLV.
 
LHLX
Posts: 155
Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2011 6:25 am

Re: KSA and Bahrain grant overflight to Israeli commercial flights

Sat Sep 12, 2020 6:36 am

When or IF EL AL starts to fly again - could they serve BOM from TLV with a 738/739?

Prior to Covid19 BOM was served by LY with 777s / 787s but this was when the flight was 7:30/8 hourse when they had to go round the Arabian Peninsula

LY were supposed to start flying TLV-DUB with a 738/739 and I think a route between BOM and TLV that flies over the AUH area isn't longer...
The hard product LY offer on those planes is as good or better than what UA,AA and DL offer on some long transcontinental flights on their 737s/A319s...especially on LY's refurbished 738s.
 
flybaby
Posts: 247
Joined: Fri Apr 14, 2006 5:20 am

Re: Both KSA and Bahrain grants all commercial flights

Sat Sep 12, 2020 4:30 pm

Antarius wrote:
panam330 wrote:
Without getting into the politics of it all, I wonder if this is really driven by the desire to collect overflight fees, because revenue is revenue at this point, or to truly be diplomatic. Either way, it's quite the positive development for all involved - and it's about time.


It is politics though. I doubt overfly came into it. It's not THAT much money.

In a nutshell, the enemy of my enemy is my friend.


I would guesstimate Saudi permit fees for a 739 between Israel and UAE would be about $600 per flight. A 789 between Israel and Australia $1,600.
 
ly7e7
Posts: 2232
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 3:15 am

Re: Both KSA and Bahrain grants all commercial flights

Sun Sep 13, 2020 11:13 am

panam330 wrote:
Without getting into the politics of it all, I wonder if this is really driven by the desire to collect overflight fees, because revenue is revenue at this point, or to truly be diplomatic. Either way, it's quite the positive development for all involved - and it's about time.


If that's what is driving them - it is a perfect sign of normalization, in which economical aspects of the aviation industry prevail on old fashioned politics.
2 things are endless: ignorance and space
 
StrandedAtMKG
Posts: 304
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2015 5:51 pm

Re: KSA and Bahrain grant overflight to Israeli commercial flights

Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:17 pm

Just so we're clear, the fact that airplanes from a company based inside one imaginary line cannot fly six miles high over territory that's inside a different imaginary line and it's all because people from inside the two territories worship different imaginary beings is utterly bananas.

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