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LX015
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A little light hearted ATC fun...

Tue Sep 15, 2020 4:01 pm

For any of you pilots who may have had contact with Albuquerque Center, have you experienced this? Yes, its unprofessional, but it's funny...

https://youtu.be/UZ6ZkEZkA0U
 
ATCJesus
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Re: A little light hearted ATC fun...

Tue Sep 15, 2020 4:34 pm

Happens all the time....
 
ChrisKen
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Re: A little light hearted ATC fun...

Tue Sep 15, 2020 5:30 pm

It shouldn't.
Agreed unprofessional, disagree with it's funny. It's very annoying and is clearly causing issues on frequency. Someone needs to be retrained.
 
wjcandee
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Re: A little light hearted ATC fun...

Tue Sep 15, 2020 5:48 pm

Am I missing why this is funny? The guy in the background is blatantly-mocking an African-American pronunciation of the name. Is that funny? Do they come into the tower in blackface and consider that to be funny, too? Weird. Your government at work.
 
MaxTrimm
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Re: A little light hearted ATC fun...

Tue Sep 15, 2020 5:58 pm

wjcandee wrote:
Am I missing why this is funny? The guy in the background is blatantly-mocking an African-American pronunciation of the name. Is that funny? Do they come into the tower in blackface and consider that to be funny, too? Weird. Your government at work.

None of the pilots seemed to have any issue understanding what was going on. Loosen up a little
 
MrBretz
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Re: A little light hearted ATC fun...

Tue Sep 15, 2020 6:01 pm

It kind of reminds me the way we talked in the office 40 years ago. Most of that was gone over 25 years ago or so. Looks like ATC has some catching up to do.
 
Nicknuzzii
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Re: A little light hearted ATC fun...

Tue Sep 15, 2020 6:09 pm

wjcandee wrote:
Am I missing why this is funny? The guy in the background is blatantly-mocking an African-American pronunciation of the name. Is that funny? Do they come into the tower in blackface and consider that to be funny, too? Weird. Your government at work.


MrBretz wrote:
It kind of reminds me the way we talked in the office 40 years ago. Most of that was gone over 25 years ago or so. Looks like ATC has some catching up to do.


ChrisKen wrote:
It shouldn't.
Agreed unprofessional, disagree with it's funny. It's very annoying and is clearly causing issues on frequency. Someone needs to be retrained.


By the way you guys talked about it you would have thought it was horrific. Lighten up a little.
 
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LAXdenizen
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Re: A little light hearted ATC fun...

Tue Sep 15, 2020 6:15 pm

Juvenile behavior at best. Absolutely inappropriate in any workplace setting. And this is a workplace setting.
 
ChrisKen
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Re: A little light hearted ATC fun...

Tue Sep 15, 2020 6:26 pm

Nicknuzzii wrote:
By the way you guys talked about it you would have thought it was horrific. Lighten up a little.

No need to lighten up, there's a time and a place. Being a dumbarse every time a particular waypoint is mentioned is neither.
It's highly unprofessional. It caused issues with clarity meaning several pilots had to resort to asking for/be given further clarification/confirmation (just in that short clip alone) so that's neither safe or efficient, the whole point of the ATC service.
It wasn't funny (even the first time), it was just annoying for the professionals in the air and the professional sat in the same room trying to conduct their business properly on frequency.
Last edited by ChrisKen on Tue Sep 15, 2020 6:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
brodeurprice
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Re: A little light hearted ATC fun...

Tue Sep 15, 2020 7:05 pm

“Hehe black people talk funny haha black name funny hehe”

honestly the fact that people DON’T see a problem with this is more concerning
Last edited by brodeurprice on Tue Sep 15, 2020 7:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
canyonblue17
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Re: A little light hearted ATC fun...

Tue Sep 15, 2020 7:10 pm

ATC job is language. They are hired in large part to speak professionally, clearly and by the book. There are other ways to joke around. Simple misunderstandings can lead to major problems.
negative ghostrider the pattern is full
 
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Revelation
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Re: A little light hearted ATC fun...

Tue Sep 15, 2020 7:39 pm

MaxTrimm wrote:
Loosen up a little

The time to loosen up is after work with your friends.

Personally I wonder what would be made of an African American ATCer using a mocking voice to repeatedly spell out W-H-I-T-E ( https://www.airnav.com/airspace/fix/WHITE ) or W-H-Y-T-E ( https://www.airnav.com/airspace/fix/WHYTE ) or W-H-I-T-T ( https://www.airnav.com/airspace/fix/WHITT ) or some such.

I personally doubt it'd be "aww, loosen up, he/she is just having fun"...
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The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
wjcandee
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Re: A little light hearted ATC fun...

Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:39 pm

BA744PHX wrote:
How does race come into this?


Now THAT's funny.

(I know you're not serious, and appreciate your subtle wit.)
 
bevan7
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Re: A little light hearted ATC fun...

Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:40 pm

What's the significance of the Tiiiron thing? is it part of a meme or something?
 
dr1980
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Re: A little light hearted ATC fun...

Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:48 pm

wjcandee wrote:
Have ya looked at what's happening in the streets these days? A lot of the pent-up anger is caused by having to put up with a million little slights like this every day. There is no way to look at this as other than mocking black people. None. Am I oversensitive? No. I'm a professional. And professionals don't do this kind of racist crap, especially at work, nor do they tolerate it in their presence.


Well said. The fact that his happened or routinely happens is evidence of the deep systemic anti-black racism that exists in the US and elsewhere. The fact that so many people can’t understand why this behaviour is problematic is further evidence.
Dave/CYHZ
 
deebee278
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Re: A little light hearted ATC fun...

Tue Sep 15, 2020 9:55 pm

Attention Pilots and controllers...Watch for your next Jepp revision. A certain intersection will have a new name. On a similar matter, back when I was flying, there was an intersection named "GANJA" out west of Fort Worth. Don't know if it's still there.
 
uta999
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Re: A little light hearted ATC fun...

Tue Sep 15, 2020 10:06 pm

ATC and fun are two words that should never really go together. The job does not allow it, or it shouldn’t.

US ATC is full of unprofessional, non-standard speaking baseball commentators, talking too fast, with little care on whether the pilot at the other end can understand them properly. That’s their problem attitude.

It’s not just a black thing either. They regularly round on the Chinese, Asian and even the French.

Try listening to LiveATC or YouTube. It’s a complete mess.
Your computer just got better
 
arcticcruiser
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Re: A little light hearted ATC fun...

Tue Sep 15, 2020 10:53 pm

uta999 wrote:
ATC and fun are two words that should never really go together. The job does not allow it, or it shouldn’t.

US ATC is full of unprofessional, non-standard speaking baseball commentators, talking too fast, with little care on whether the pilot at the other end can understand them properly. That’s their problem attitude.

It’s not just a black thing either. They regularly round on the Chinese, Asian and even the French.

Try listening to LiveATC or YouTube. It’s a complete mess.


I bet you are a lot of fun to work with. During night freight flights into CDG a while back even the French contollers allowed themselves some relaxation.
French pilots and controllers have long had little regard for whether anyone else (foreign pilots) could understand them or not. (Caveat, been flying among others into France and US for well over 30 years, even operating on French airline callsigns).
 
rampbro
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Re: A little light hearted ATC fun...

Tue Sep 15, 2020 11:05 pm

Totally agree with folks commenting this is inappropriate and unsafe. Safety cultures are serious and humble.
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: A little light hearted ATC fun...

Tue Sep 15, 2020 11:26 pm

I'm just going to add a couple of things here and leave it at that...

People suggesting that this is mocking a traditionally African-American name are probably reading too deep into this for one very good reason: there's a reasonably high chance that the fix is named after one of their coworkers. Literally 25% of the common fixes in my airspace are named after current or former controllers who also work that airspace. We make the airspace, so we pick the names.

For people calling controllers in the US unprofessional because of what they hear on YouTube — don't be ridiculous. American controllers train the rest of the world's controllers because of our skill and professionalism. Forming judgements about an entire workforce based on YouTube videos is categorically ridiculous. Is this video unprofessional? Maybe. At the very least, it's unfortunate, but we aren't all like this. Most of us aren't.

Many of those in this thread are passing judgement despite not working in the industry. What these people are failing to take into account is that the past six months have been stressful on both sides of the frequency. No, this isn't the best way to lighten the mood, but pilots or controllers injecting humor to give everyone a moment of levity does not make us unprofessional, it makes us human.

I would recommend to everyone that they refrain from passing some pretty harsh judgements not just on those involved in this video, but on controllers in the US in general. Users trying to imply that we don't take our jobs seriously know nothing about what we do.
 
krsw757
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Re: A little light hearted ATC fun...

Tue Sep 15, 2020 11:31 pm

uta999 wrote:
ATC and fun are two words that should never really go together. The job does not allow it, or it shouldn’t.

US ATC is full of unprofessional, non-standard speaking baseball commentators, talking too fast, with little care on whether the pilot at the other end can understand them properly. That’s their problem attitude.

It’s not just a black thing either. They regularly round on the Chinese, Asian and even the French.

Try listening to LiveATC or YouTube. It’s a complete mess.


Being one of those “unprofessional, non-standard speaking baseball commentators“ you speak of, you’re entire post is just keyboard warrior nonsense. You’re post was just as offensive as your claim to the clip was.
 
AndyW35
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Re: A little light hearted ATC fun...

Tue Sep 15, 2020 11:56 pm

The only place this is going anywhere is on this forum where people can pass gas, sort their thoughts on the matter for the next 5 pages when nobody else cares....


Bigger things to talk about nowadays. .......
 
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stl07
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Re: A little light hearted ATC fun...

Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:43 am

atcsundevil wrote:
there's a reasonably high chance that the fix is named after one of their coworkers..

That's exactly what I was thinking. Probably a guy named tyrone who is a bit of a character.
Instead of typing in "mods", consider using the report function.
Love how every "travel blogger" says they will never fly AA/Ethihad again and then says it again and again on subsequent flights.
 
Virtual737
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Re: A little light hearted ATC fun...

Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:53 am

A couple of points.

1.) I found it 60% annoying and 0% funny.

2.) Many of the posts above are assuming that the woman heard in the clip isn't african-american? How do we know (or even care about) this? If I had to bet, my money would be non-black, but there are some assumptions being made that are leading to claims of racism.

Racism is a real, worldwide problem. Stamp on it when you see it, but don't look to be offended simply because you can.
 
modesto2
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Re: A little light hearted ATC fun...

Wed Sep 16, 2020 2:36 am

atcsundevil wrote:
I'm just going to add a couple of things here and leave it at that...

People suggesting that this is mocking a traditionally African-American name are probably reading too deep into this for one very good reason: there's a reasonably high chance that the fix is named after one of their coworkers. Literally 25% of the common fixes in my airspace are named after current or former controllers who also work that airspace. We make the airspace, so we pick the names.

For people calling controllers in the US unprofessional because of what they hear on YouTube — don't be ridiculous. American controllers train the rest of the world's controllers because of our skill and professionalism. Forming judgements about an entire workforce based on YouTube videos is categorically ridiculous. Is this video unprofessional? Maybe. At the very least, it's unfortunate, but we aren't all like this. Most of us aren't.

Many of those in this thread are passing judgement despite not working in the industry. What these people are failing to take into account is that the past six months have been stressful on both sides of the frequency. No, this isn't the best way to lighten the mood, but pilots or controllers injecting humor to give everyone a moment of levity does not make us unprofessional, it makes us human.

I would recommend to everyone that they refrain from passing some pretty harsh judgements not just on those involved in this video, but on controllers in the US in general. Users trying to imply that we don't take our jobs seriously know nothing about what we do.


I'm a former airline pilot, so I've heard my share of humor on frequency. Let's assume that the fix is named after a controller. That doesn't matter. It's still mocking Black culture. Yes, the past six months have been stressful for everyone, but there are more professional ways of cutting the stress.

I do agree with your point that the overwhelming majority of US controllers are professional and very good at their jobs. We shouldn't assume that all controllers behave in this manner.
 
woodfinx
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Re: A little light hearted ATC fun...

Wed Sep 16, 2020 4:08 am

So a few overworked controllers in a severely understaffed agency keeping it light at work are now racist bigots for the way they pronounce an intersection? Interesting.

Well the good news is you can always descend to 17k and cancel IFR. We don't want to hear you bitch about light chop every 3 minutes anyways.

FWIW the fixes into my airport are HUGHE CHSNE BAWLS. We're immature, get over it. We don't have time to think about social justice issues as we're too busy keeping the tubes of idiots apart.
 
timpdx
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Re: A little light hearted ATC fun...

Wed Sep 16, 2020 4:33 am

At first I was thinking how did some 12 year old get on frequency? Then, 100% racist.
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wjcandee
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Re: A little light hearted ATC fun...

Wed Sep 16, 2020 4:42 am

woodfinx wrote:
So a few overworked controllers in a severely understaffed agency keeping it light at work are now racist bigots for the way they pronounce an intersection? Interesting.
We're immature, get over it.


Wow. Allow me to respond. It isn't a question of how someone "pronounces an intersection". It is intentionally: (1) mocking the name, which is probably more-commonly an African-American name (but of course there's Tyrone Power); (2) pronouncing said name in a manner clearly-designed to sound "black"; (3) just in case anyone didn't get the point, doing it over and over in the background in the same mocking-black-people voice. (4) And as evidence that everybody on the frequency ABSOLUTELY understood the intent, there's the idiot who cut in with the "Yeah" in a deep, mocking-black-people voice.

If I were in command in the pointy-end, riding with an African-American pilot, I would have been embarrassed. Hell, I would have been embarrassed in any event. If someone tried to pull that crap anywhere I was in command, they'd be standing tall ricky-tick. That so many controllers are coming on here saying, "What's the big deal?" points to a real breakdown of command in your agency. For one, it is an instant victory in a hostile workplace lawsuit -- maybe you're proving the point that a class-action would be well-warranted.

However, I guaran-freaking-tee you that if someone sent a link to that video to ANY Congressional office, of EITHER party, along with a printout of this thread with the comments like yours along the lines that it's "no big deal", that folks are just "keeping it light", and that this kind of nonsense goes on routinely at ATC, the Administrator of the FAA would find himself being brutally-questioned about this by a pretty-united group of hostile Congresspeople. Hey, maybe that's it! You're trying to bring the Republicans and Democrats together! This would do it. And rightfully-so. Congratulations. I didn't see it until now.

In any event, keep it up and I'm confident you will have the pleasure of hours of sensitivity training, which nobody wants. Maybe instead folks could just treat other people with dignity -- but that's probably too much to ask. So, enjoy the training that's coming your way!!!
 
wjcandee
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Re: A little light hearted ATC fun...

Wed Sep 16, 2020 5:01 am

atcsundevil wrote:
calling controllers in the US unprofessional because of what they hear on YouTube — don't be ridiculous.


You know what was troubling -- all the responses from controllers who had no clue how offensive this actually is. THAT is a legitimate concern. Which means we can't just write it off as a couple of nitwits being nitwits.

I think your post was well-reasoned and thoughtful. And I'm gonna follow your lead and leave this alone now. But do take a moment, understanding that this is a broadcast heard by a fair number of people, how a 10 year old black kid on career day visiting an airplane or tower (or whatever -- it's an imperfect example) would feel if he heard that. Would you be uncomfortable knowing he heard that? If so, it's not suitable for broadcast, or, frankly, in a workplace.
,
Last edited by wjcandee on Wed Sep 16, 2020 5:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: A little light hearted ATC fun...

Wed Sep 16, 2020 5:02 am

wjcandee wrote:
woodfinx wrote:
So a few overworked controllers in a severely understaffed agency keeping it light at work are now racist bigots for the way they pronounce an intersection? Interesting.
We're immature, get over it.


Wow. Allow me to respond. It isn't a question of how someone "pronounces an intersection". It is intentionally: (1) mocking the name, which is probably more-commonly an African-American name (but of course there's Tyrone Power); (2) pronouncing said name in a manner clearly-designed to sound "black"; (3) just in case anyone didn't get the point, doing it over and over in the background in the same mocking-black-people voice. (4) And as evidence that everybody on the frequency ABSOLUTELY understood the intent, there's the idiot who cut in with the "Yeah" in a deep, mocking-black-people voice.

If I were in command in the pointy-end, riding with an African-American pilot, I would have been embarrassed. Hell, I would have been embarrassed in any event. If someone tried to pull that crap anywhere I was in command, they'd be standing tall ricky-tick. That so many controllers are coming on here saying, "What's the big deal?" points to a real breakdown of command in your agency. For one, it is an instant victory in a hostile workplace lawsuit -- maybe you're proving the point that a class-action would be well-warranted.

However, I guaran-freaking-tee you that if someone sent a link to that video to ANY Congressional office, of EITHER party, along with a printout of this thread with the comments like yours along the lines that it's "no big deal", that folks are just "keeping it light", and that this kind of nonsense goes on routinely at ATC, the Administrator of the FAA would find himself being brutally-questioned about this by a pretty-united group of hostile Congresspeople. Hey, maybe that's it! You're trying to bring the Republicans and Democrats together! This would do it. And rightfully-so. Congratulations. I didn't see it until now.

In any event, keep it up and I'm confident you will have the pleasure of hours of sensitivity training, which nobody wants. Maybe instead folks could just treat other people with dignity -- but that's probably too much to ask. So, enjoy the training that's coming your way!!!

I take it you didn't read my post? All I'm going to say is that if you haven't spent some time in an air traffic facility, then you aren't capable of understanding what was likely going on. If you had, you'd reconsider this comment. There's a reason a bunch of controllers have posted in this thread with the equivalent of an eye roll, particularly at the accusations lobbed by people jumping to some pretty major conclusions like yourself. My fellow controllers are highly trained, highly professional, and highly skilled. More than that, they're pretty much all good people who deeply care about each other and what we do. We're also mostly Type A goofballs who like giving each other a hard time. As I said in my previous post, I would bet anything that the fix being discussed is named after someone who works there. Hell, I even have a fix named after me, and so do most of the people I work with. Examining the issue deeper than that is misinformed.
 
wjcandee
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Re: A little light hearted ATC fun...

Wed Sep 16, 2020 5:12 am

atcsundevil wrote:
if you haven't spent some time in an air traffic facility, then you aren't capable of understanding what was likely going on.


My friend, and I respect you a lot and am really sad that we're disagreeing about something, you're missing the point. You can't just write it off as "you can't criticize because you don't know what our job is like". What you're missing is that this isn't appropriate ANYWHERE, in ANY workplace, much less in one where what you do is broadcast, and taped.

And focus your responses on what I'M saying, not the random "controllers are idiots" posts that you seem to have lumped in with mine. There's a difference between saying "the people who do this job are unprofessional", and what I'm saying, which is that THIS BEHAVIOR is unprofessional, and frankly somewhat shocking coming from people we CONSIDER to be professionals. It is really interesting that the culture in your agency, apparently, hasn't gotten past 1970 and Mad Men, despite the controller corps being forcibly-integrated. I have yet to see one controller come on here and say, "Yeah, that was bad, and our boss would have kicked our ass if he/she had heard that." And that's a legitimate concern.

All this said, don't lose sight of the respect that most a.netters pay to controllers. We hear them over and over respond amazingly in very-difficult situations that would turn many to mush. And maybe that's what makes this, and the responses, so hard to hear.

I always used to tell newbies that people can screw up a lot in their jobs, no matter where it is or what it is, and not get fired. But I let them know that the one thing that will get a person fired in 3 seconds flat is making the employer or the boss look bad. Make the job look bad, you stand a good chance of losing the job. So a lot of people in the workplace who like their jobs often develop a sense of things they can't do because it would make the job look bad. This whole thing, particularly the defense of it and zero sense even that it could "look bad" is interesting.

Anyway, we can agree to disagree. I value all your posts on a.net, which are often the ones I am most happy to read, and I want to be sure this doesn't harm that.
Last edited by wjcandee on Wed Sep 16, 2020 5:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
FX1816
Posts: 461
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Re: A little light hearted ATC fun...

Wed Sep 16, 2020 5:27 am

atcsundevil wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
woodfinx wrote:
So a few overworked controllers in a severely understaffed agency keeping it light at work are now racist bigots for the way they pronounce an intersection? Interesting.
We're immature, get over it.


Wow. Allow me to respond. It isn't a question of how someone "pronounces an intersection". It is intentionally: (1) mocking the name, which is probably more-commonly an African-American name (but of course there's Tyrone Power); (2) pronouncing said name in a manner clearly-designed to sound "black"; (3) just in case anyone didn't get the point, doing it over and over in the background in the same mocking-black-people voice. (4) And as evidence that everybody on the frequency ABSOLUTELY understood the intent, there's the idiot who cut in with the "Yeah" in a deep, mocking-black-people voice.

If I were in command in the pointy-end, riding with an African-American pilot, I would have been embarrassed. Hell, I would have been embarrassed in any event. If someone tried to pull that crap anywhere I was in command, they'd be standing tall ricky-tick. That so many controllers are coming on here saying, "What's the big deal?" points to a real breakdown of command in your agency. For one, it is an instant victory in a hostile workplace lawsuit -- maybe you're proving the point that a class-action would be well-warranted.

However, I guaran-freaking-tee you that if someone sent a link to that video to ANY Congressional office, of EITHER party, along with a printout of this thread with the comments like yours along the lines that it's "no big deal", that folks are just "keeping it light", and that this kind of nonsense goes on routinely at ATC, the Administrator of the FAA would find himself being brutally-questioned about this by a pretty-united group of hostile Congresspeople. Hey, maybe that's it! You're trying to bring the Republicans and Democrats together! This would do it. And rightfully-so. Congratulations. I didn't see it until now.

In any event, keep it up and I'm confident you will have the pleasure of hours of sensitivity training, which nobody wants. Maybe instead folks could just treat other people with dignity -- but that's probably too much to ask. So, enjoy the training that's coming your way!!!

I take it you didn't read my post? All I'm going to say is that if you haven't spent some time in an air traffic facility, then you aren't capable of understanding what was likely going on. If you had, you'd reconsider this comment. There's a reason a bunch of controllers have posted in this thread with the equivalent of an eye roll, particularly at the accusations lobbed by people jumping to some pretty major conclusions like yourself. My fellow controllers are highly trained, highly professional, and highly skilled. More than that, they're pretty much all good people who deeply care about each other and what we do. We're also mostly Type A goofballs who like giving each other a hard time. As I said in my previous post, I would bet anything that the fix being discussed is named after someone who works there. Hell, I even have a fix named after me, and so do most of the people I work with. Examining the issue deeper than that is misinformed.



I've been an ATC for over 11 years now with the FAA. I agree with you wholeheartedly, what if that is "Tyrone" saying that in the background? Nobody here knows, unless you can access ART from ZAB for that particular day, area and sector. I can tell you I have been overheard numerous times, I've mostly been in towers, saying silly things or laughing. There is a fix, Julian VOR, (JLI) that is part of our TEC route out of ONT down towards IPL, Ameriflight flew this routing everyday. Well we had a trainee we used to tease about how he would pronounce Julian, so we would, all of us, say it in unison out loud. The Amflight pilot, same guy everyday, would even say it the same way. I've been teased plenty of times too, doesn't bother me. All I'm saying is that none of us, especially non ATC'ers, know exactly what went down there or how often it happens. What if "Tyrone" is still there and that is exactly the way he wants to pronounce it and likes when others do too? Labeling this as a racist act completely waters down real racism, listening to this audio gives NO indication of what is truly in that persons heart and how they feel. Besides, real racism would be assuming the person saying that is not black. What if they are? People are not assigned a specific "color" sound.

RC
Last edited by FX1816 on Wed Sep 16, 2020 5:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
75driver
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Re: A little light hearted ATC fun...

Wed Sep 16, 2020 5:30 am

It is absolutely inappropriate and the correct annunciation is “TIE-RON”. I was in this airspace last week and have had this same junction before. I’ve never heard anyone say “TIE-ROWN”. This YouTube is NOT funny. I love my ATC guys and know they put up with enormous stress. I’ve also had my share of fun banter back and forth but never in this fashion. It’s insulting. Wish this wasn’t online :(
 
wjcandee
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Re: A little light hearted ATC fun...

Wed Sep 16, 2020 5:58 am

FX1816: Okay, so here's another a.net friend that is now probably mad at me. Ugh. My last post on this. I promise. Hoping to help you guys see the point. See if this story makes sense:

In the late 1980s, the Company hired a lawyer to come in and give us sexual harassment training. Well ahead of the curve. At the time, we used the F-bomb in basically every sentence. As a noun. An adjective. A verb. An adverb. Sometimes all four forms in the same sentence. There was a lot of effin'. Of course, we had 60-year old white haired female staff. 25-year-old devout Christian female staff. And on and on. Very nice people. For some reason, talking to each other, it never occurred to us that this language usage, creative and essential-to-our-beings as it was, would hurt the feelings of the staffers or make them uncomfortable, especially because although we were saying it IN FRONT OF them, we weren't saying it TO them. Maybe deep down some felt that it was the way we were and the staffers didn't have to work there if they didn't like it. And none of them ever complained. So, here were a group of us with this lawyer, a very good one. He explained some things that were pretty-smart, like the fact that jokes get people in trouble a lot more than anything else and that if you think about it, sometimes "jokes" are just a passive-aggressive way of humiliating someone, "all in good fun", and such.

Then he got to the F-bomb and basically said that it was setting every one of us up for a sexual harassment suit. We protested. Loudly. "But we're not USING it sexually. It's a pejorative. It's not like hitting on someone, It's part of the vernacular of our profession. Even the girls in our positions use it. This is stupid."

Okay, he said, who wants to come up here and be the Defendant in a suit by one of those nice staffers out there claiming that they were sexually-harassed because of the language you're using? You can explain to the jury that you "weren't using it sexually". Hands went up. One unlucky winner got on the "witness stand". For twenty-five minutes, the lawyer cross-examined him nearly to tears. He was a stuttering, slobbering mess. Wow. F^%k! That made an impression. I walked out the door and resolved never to use the word in the workplace again. What became clear was that it ISN'T how one intended the words, it's how the words WERE RECEIVED, within reason. And I discovered in conversations much later with some of our female staffers that they HATED the way we talked -- liked everything else about the job, hated that. They were very glad that we by-and-large stopped. They wouldn't let their kids or husbands talk like that at home, but they were bombarded with it at work. They did read it sexually, not as a proposition, but definitely sexually, and it just made the day hard. I guess the general point that I took away was that one has to be sensitive to how one's words are received, no matter how they were intended, because, as you point out, people don't know what's in your heart when you're speaking. Our workplace was a f--- of a lot more civilized after we stopped using the word, for the most part. It was about treating those around us with dignity and respect. I really took the whole experience to heart. It was a long time ago, and the concept applies to racial issues in the workplace, which is a focus now, as much as it did to sexual harassment those many years ago.

Anyway. That's it. I'm done.
Last edited by wjcandee on Wed Sep 16, 2020 6:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: A little light hearted ATC fun...

Wed Sep 16, 2020 6:03 am

wjcandee wrote:
My friend, and I respect you a lot, you're missing the point. You can't just write it off as "you can't criticize because you don't know what our job is like". What you're missing is that this isn't appropriate ANYWHERE, in ANY workplace, much less in one where what you do is broadcast, and taped.

And focus your responses on what I'M saying, not the random "controllers are idiots" posts that you seem to have lumped in with mine. There's a difference between saying "the people who do this job are unprofessional", and what I'm saying, which is that THIS BEHAVIOR is unprofessional, and frankly somewhat shocking coming from people we CONSIDER to be professionals. It is really interesting that the culture in your agency, apparently, hasn't gotten past 1970 and Mad Men, despite the controller corps being forcibly-integrated. I have yet to see one controller come on here and say, "Yeah, that was bad, and our boss would have kicked our ass if he/she had heard that." And that's a big concern.

I wasn't intending to lump your post in with others in that regard. I was linking your post to others that have made some fairly serious accusations that I don't believe to be accurate. I could be wrong, and if I am, then believe me, I'm just as disappointed as you. I'm in an interracial marriage, so I would be hard pressed to stick up for something like this if I thought there was malicious intent involved. I also wasn't intending to shut down criticism with that comment, it just isn't possible for someone to understand the interpersonal dynamics without having spent time on the floor or in the cab. It isn't Mad Men, it's spending an excessive amount of time around the same people year in and year out. We're just weird, and some of us talk too much.

In my prior post, I did admit that this is probably unprofessional, and at the very least it's extremely unfortunate and regrettable. In any case, it's stupid and it's right for people to expect better. My previous "moment of levity" comment was geared more towards people implying that we're unprofessional for every moment in which we don't sound like robots, which I very much disagree with. This wasn't a moment of levity, if I wasn't clear on that before.

As for the last part about bosses, we probably aren't commenting on that for a few reasons. It's not necessarily a silent defense, more like a withholding of judgement. I don't publicly advocate for any controller to be disciplined purely on the basis that it isn't my job to pass that judgement. I generally refrain from commenting on some ATC related topics because of that. I have my personal opinions on how I feel situations should be handled, but I won't express them here. My only defense of this situation (and the only reason I'm engaging in this topic) is that knowing how controllers are, I don't believe this was in any way malicious, just stupid.

FX1816 wrote:
Well we had a trainee we used to tease about how he would pronounce Julian, so we would, all of us, say it in unison out loud.

This is exactly what I'm talking about, and why is probably difficult to impossible for people outside of ATC to understand this dynamic. When I was training, I would spell out fix names when giving routing, but my trainer would say totally wrong, random letters in my other ear or say things to try to make me laugh. Someone might see that as unprofessional, but it taught me to tune out erroneous information and improved my ability to hear multiple things at once. We give each other a hard time because we generally like each other. Someone was overzealous in this instance.

75driver wrote:
It is absolutely inappropriate and the correct annunciation is “TIE-RON”.

Technically there's no such thing as a correct pronunciation of any fix because they aren't words. If we're going for "more correct", then it's what we say it is because we name them, not pilots.
 
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Re: A little light hearted ATC fun...

Wed Sep 16, 2020 6:20 am

atcsundevil wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
My friend, and I respect you a lot, you're missing the point. You can't just write it off as "you can't criticize because you don't know what our job is like". What you're missing is that this isn't appropriate ANYWHERE, in ANY workplace, much less in one where what you do is broadcast, and taped.

And focus your responses on what I'M saying, not the random "controllers are idiots" posts that you seem to have lumped in with mine. There's a difference between saying "the people who do this job are unprofessional", and what I'm saying, which is that THIS BEHAVIOR is unprofessional, and frankly somewhat shocking coming from people we CONSIDER to be professionals. It is really interesting that the culture in your agency, apparently, hasn't gotten past 1970 and Mad Men, despite the controller corps being forcibly-integrated. I have yet to see one controller come on here and say, "Yeah, that was bad, and our boss would have kicked our ass if he/she had heard that." And that's a big concern.

I wasn't intending to lump your post in with others in that regard. I was linking your post to others that have made some fairly serious accusations that I don't believe to be accurate. I could be wrong, and if I am, then believe me, I'm just as disappointed as you. I'm in an interracial marriage, so I would be hard pressed to stick up for something like this if I thought there was malicious intent involved. I also wasn't intending to shut down criticism with that comment, it just isn't possible for someone to understand the interpersonal dynamics without having spent time on the floor or in the cab. It isn't Mad Men, it's spending an excessive amount of time around the same people year in and year out. We're just weird, and some of us talk too much.

In my prior post, I did admit that this is probably unprofessional, and at the very least it's extremely unfortunate and regrettable. In any case, it's stupid and it's right for people to expect better. My previous "moment of levity" comment was geared more towards people implying that we're unprofessional for every moment in which we don't sound like robots, which I very much disagree with. This wasn't a moment of levity, if I wasn't clear on that before.

As for the last part about bosses, we probably aren't commenting on that for a few reasons. It's not necessarily a silent defense, more like a withholding of judgement. I don't publicly advocate for any controller to be disciplined purely on the basis that it isn't my job to pass that judgement. I generally refrain from commenting on some ATC related topics because of that. I have my personal opinions on how I feel situations should be handled, but I won't express them here. My only defense of this situation (and the only reason I'm engaging in this topic) is that knowing how controllers are, I don't believe this was in any way malicious, just stupid.

FX1816 wrote:
Well we had a trainee we used to tease about how he would pronounce Julian, so we would, all of us, say it in unison out loud.

This is exactly what I'm talking about, and why is probably difficult to impossible for people outside of ATC to understand this dynamic. When I was training, I would spell out fix names when giving routing, but my trainer would say totally wrong, random letters in my other ear or say things to try to make me laugh. Someone might see that as unprofessional, but it taught me to tune out erroneous information and improved my ability to hear multiple things at once. We give each other a hard time because we generally like each other. Someone was overzealous in this instance.

75driver wrote:
It is absolutely inappropriate and the correct annunciation is “TIE-RON”.

Technically there's no such thing as a correct pronunciation of any fix because they aren't words. If we're going for "more correct", then it's what we say it is because we name them, not pilots.


Yes, I liken an Air Traffic Facility to that of a locker room. There are many discussions that go on that probably shouldn't but that is how it is. I'd say over 90% of the people I've worked with at my 4 facilities are great people that work hard but sometimes things get "crazy" with Type A personalities. Besides if I don't like you, I won't speak except for operationally.
 
wjcandee
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Re: A little light hearted ATC fun...

Wed Sep 16, 2020 6:23 am

ATCSundevil; Thanks. I hear you and appreciate the very-intelligent and thoughtful post.
 
32andBelow
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Re: A little light hearted ATC fun...

Wed Sep 16, 2020 6:45 am

What if the guy saying it was black? do the keyboard warriors think there’s no black controllers. Controllers joke around but they do a good job.
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: A little light hearted ATC fun...

Wed Sep 16, 2020 6:45 am

FX1816 wrote:
Yes, I liken an Air Traffic Facility to that of a locker room. There are many discussions that go on that probably shouldn't but that is how it is. I'd say over 90% of the people I've worked with at my 4 facilities are great people that work hard but sometimes things get "crazy" with Type A personalities. Besides if I don't like you, I won't speak except for operationally.

Absolutely, especially on the last part! I would go so far as to say the vast majority of us wouldn't even think about doing what's depicted in that tape...but there's usually one or two in every area that might though. If people here want to call that type of person unprofessional, then that's more than fair, but that doesn't describe most of us. And honestly, who doesn't have that one borderline unprofessional person they work with regardless of where they work? That's not a reflection on their careers, so it shouldn't be on ours either.
 
FX1816
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Re: A little light hearted ATC fun...

Wed Sep 16, 2020 6:51 am

atcsundevil wrote:
FX1816 wrote:
Yes, I liken an Air Traffic Facility to that of a locker room. There are many discussions that go on that probably shouldn't but that is how it is. I'd say over 90% of the people I've worked with at my 4 facilities are great people that work hard but sometimes things get "crazy" with Type A personalities. Besides if I don't like you, I won't speak except for operationally.

Absolutely, especially on the last part! I would go so far as to say the vast majority of us wouldn't even think about doing what's depicted in that tape...but there's usually one or two in every area that might though. If people here want to call that type of person unprofessional, then that's more than fair, but that doesn't describe most of us. And honestly, who doesn't have that one borderline unprofessional person they work with regardless of where they work? That's not a reflection on their careers, so it shouldn't be on ours either.


Yes, I've worked with at least 1 person at all of my facilities that would definitely push the boundaries. I'd agree too, it's not even something I'd even think about at all. The one thing I would criticize after listening to it again is that it sounds like it might be the "D" side that is saying that in the background. I may have yelled, spoken loudly, but I would never do it if I was actually close to the person keying up. I could be wrong but it just sounds really, really close to the mike.
 
krsw757
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Re: A little light hearted ATC fun...

Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:58 am

Just a quick add to different ways a fix is “supposed” to be said...We have a fix here named OVENP. I’ve heard a few different ways but it is intended to be oven-pee. Why you ask? Let’s just say someone partied to hard one night and the rest I’ll let everyone use their imagination. Point being, while yes they shouldn’t be yelling it loud enough to go out on frequency, but you have no clue how it’s “supposed” to be pronounced nor the back story. Hell, the person yelling in the background may be TIERON.
 
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Re: A little light hearted ATC fun...

Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:52 pm

Storm in a teacup much?
 
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Revelation
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Re: A little light hearted ATC fun...

Wed Sep 16, 2020 2:22 pm

atcsundevil wrote:
We're also mostly Type A goofballs who like giving each other a hard time.

I think you'll find that being a goofball can be held against you.

It was all the way back in the 90s when Clarence Thomas's reference to a pubic hair was the basis of allegations of workplace sexual harassment.

Trump's use of the locker room banter excuse only went so far, a lot of damage was done.

You still seem to be seeing this mostly from the inside out, rather than the outside in.

Most of us are on the outside, and we're trying to tell you that it's an ugly look.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
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Re: A little light hearted ATC fun...

Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:46 pm

krsw757 wrote:
We have a fix here named OVENP. I’ve heard a few different ways but it is intended to be oven-pee. Why you ask? Let’s just say someone partied to hard one night and the rest I’ll let everyone use their imagination.


These things happen. Sometimes without partying, too.
 
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Re: A little light hearted ATC fun...

Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:49 pm

If this should bother anyone it should bother me and I think it's funny.
 
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Re: A little light hearted ATC fun...

Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:30 pm

atcsundevil wrote:
I'm just going to add a couple of things here and leave it at that...

People suggesting that this is mocking a traditionally African-American name are probably reading too deep into this for one very good reason: there's a reasonably high chance that the fix is named after one of their coworkers. Literally 25% of the common fixes in my airspace are named after current or former controllers who also work that airspace. We make the airspace, so we pick the names.

For people calling controllers in the US unprofessional because of what they hear on YouTube — don't be ridiculous. American controllers train the rest of the world's controllers because of our skill and professionalism. Forming judgements about an entire workforce based on YouTube videos is categorically ridiculous. Is this video unprofessional? Maybe. At the very least, it's unfortunate, but we aren't all like this. Most of us aren't.

Many of those in this thread are passing judgement despite not working in the industry. What these people are failing to take into account is that the past six months have been stressful on both sides of the frequency. No, this isn't the best way to lighten the mood, but pilots or controllers injecting humor to give everyone a moment of levity does not make us unprofessional, it makes us human.

I would recommend to everyone that they refrain from passing some pretty harsh judgements not just on those involved in this video, but on controllers in the US in general. Users trying to imply that we don't take our jobs seriously know nothing about what we do.


THANK YOU! For all we know that could have been "Tiron" himself in the background.
 
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Re: A little light hearted ATC fun...

Thu Sep 17, 2020 1:25 am

TyroneShoes wrote:
If this should bother anyone it should bother me and I think it's funny.

:rotfl:
You win.

Revelation wrote:
You still seem to be seeing this mostly from the inside out, rather than the outside in.

Most of us are on the outside, and we're trying to tell you that it's an ugly look.

As I've said a few times, it was unprofessional and regrettable. My point is that it shouldn't be considered a reflection on the rest of us, and that while stupid, the act itself was more than likely harmless.

If other controllers and I weren't offering the inside perspective here, then it would be easier for many people to simply assume this could only be ugly. I am capable of seeing things from other viewpoints, but it's pointless for me to express anything other than my insider view in a discussion mainly filled with outsiders. I am providing the only benefit I have to offer, which is my inside experience.

I can see how it might look ugly from where you're sitting, but for those of us on the inside, we're trying to tell you that it's probably not what it seems. Since it's far easier to look outside from the inside than it is to look inside from the outside, all we can do is offer that perspective. That's sort of the point of this forum, no?
 
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Revelation
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Re: A little light hearted ATC fun...

Thu Sep 17, 2020 12:57 pm

atcsundevil wrote:
Revelation wrote:
You still seem to be seeing this mostly from the inside out, rather than the outside in.

Most of us are on the outside, and we're trying to tell you that it's an ugly look.

As I've said a few times, it was unprofessional and regrettable. My point is that it shouldn't be considered a reflection on the rest of us, and that while stupid, the act itself was more than likely harmless.

If other controllers and I weren't offering the inside perspective here, then it would be easier for many people to simply assume this could only be ugly. I am capable of seeing things from other viewpoints, but it's pointless for me to express anything other than my insider view in a discussion mainly filled with outsiders. I am providing the only benefit I have to offer, which is my inside experience.

I can see how it might look ugly from where you're sitting, but for those of us on the inside, we're trying to tell you that it's probably not what it seems. Since it's far easier to look outside from the inside than it is to look inside from the outside, all we can do is offer that perspective. That's sort of the point of this forum, no?

Yes, the forum works well when everyone walks away learning something.

It's probably not as bad as it seems from the outside looking in, but it probably looks worse than it seems from the inside looking out.

Be careful out there, it is a cancel culture we are operating in these days.

But I have watched this guy's videos (VAS Aviation) and a lot of other similar videos across a lot of sites and am happy that ATC does such a fine job handling some very stressful situations. This does seem to be a one-off situation. And yes, I'm jealous that I don't have a waypoint named after me, and probably never will! But if you can slip one in, REVEL is still unused! :-)
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
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wilcharl
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Re: A little light hearted ATC fun...

Thu Sep 17, 2020 1:22 pm

First ----

Kingdom of Tyrone or Tír Eoghain, a kingdom of Gaelic Ireland
County Tyrone, a county in Northern Ireland
Earl of Tyrone, a title in the Peerage of Ireland

Now that that is out of the way---

Armchair vatsim warriors and flight simmers have not worked in the industry don't realize that the industry has a lot of stress, and the antidote to stress is fun - takes the edge off and arguably reducing the stress load improves safety -

That is all.. go back to playing Flight Simulator 2020 Version X revision two and pushing tin on Vatsim
 
trnswrld
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Re: A little light hearted ATC fun...

Thu Sep 17, 2020 5:05 pm

I didn't listen to the recording and don't really care to. I've been a controller now for 14 years and have heard it all. I won't comment on the racist thing. I personally have never joked on frequency and honestly, it does annoy me a little when I hear others do it. But we all have our own things and pet peeves. What does bother me is a lot of guys here coming down on controllers and one person even said its an absolute mess in the U.S. Are you F'ing kidding me? They do an amazing job and pre-covid you're talking about a workforce where a lot of people were working 6 day work weeks indefinitely. Let me tell you, getting one day off at a level 12 during thunderstorm season SUCKS.
No ones perfect. Ever hear pilots on guard frequency? looove listening to that while barely keeping my head above water at the sector. You'd think you're in kindergarten. Ever hear a pilot with a stuck mic? google the Southwest one. Remember the pilots that overflew their destination....in an A320 with 100+ people onboard....because they were snoozing!
My point isn't to turn this around on pilots, my point is we are all human, no one is perfect, but we all try to do our best. But to come on here say the U.S. ATC is a "mess" when that couldn't be further from the truth is just kind of annoying. If that's the case the same could be said about pilots.

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