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Cactusjuba
Posts: 247
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2017 8:06 am

Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Wed Sep 16, 2020 7:09 am

Before mass furloughs or layoffs, the WARN Act requires employers to notify effected individuals of a potential job loss. Delta only sent 2,558 of these notices to pilots, no other employees. It's been apparent for weeks that come OCT 1, all non-contract Delta front-line workers would still be employed. Consider the timing of these two "no furlough through winter" announcements, weeks before a potential CARES II passage. Should that occur, brilliant labor relations PR stunt to end the pre-COVID union drives. Management wins employee loyalty today, but Uncle Sugar ends up paying the bill. Say CARES II doesn't happen, still a relatively small investment if it keeps out unions. Either a big win or a small win I'd say, great strategy by the BOD.

Just curious, DL received $5.4B solely for wages. They obviously didn't use it all with the reductions in hours+overtime+leaves, and the reduced earning of retirement & profit sharing. How much of that $5.4B is left to stretch beyond OCT 1st? The oft quoted $25M daily cash burn number includes labor costs, but conveniently leaves out CARES dollars that offset them. What's the full transparent cash burn?
 
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NWAESC
Posts: 1600
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:02 pm

Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:58 am

Cactusjuba wrote:
Before mass furloughs or layoffs, the WARN Act requires employers to notify effected individuals of a potential job loss. Delta only sent 2,558 of these notices to pilots, no other employees. It's been apparent for weeks that come OCT 1, all non-contract Delta front-line workers would still be employed. Consider the timing of these two "no furlough through winter" announcements, weeks before a potential CARES II passage. Should that occur, brilliant labor relations PR stunt to end the pre-COVID union drives. Management wins employee loyalty today, but Uncle Sugar ends up paying the bill. Say CARES II doesn't happen, still a relatively small investment if it keeps out unions. Either a big win or a small win I'd say, great strategy by the BOD.


I don't know how apparent it was that all non-contract employees would still be employed-and we still don't know about possible displacements-but your points about labor PR/strategy are dead on.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
cvsirls
Posts: 11
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Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:13 am

jayunited wrote:
williaminsd wrote:
NWAESC wrote:

Exactly.


We're in a global pandemic that has cut revenues 70% and more. Sorry if you have to slum it in catering for awhile to keep a paycheck coming and benefits in effect.


Has Delta said what the FA's assigned to the kitchen will be doing? Will they be taking over food preparation replacing the cooks, will they handle food packaging and plating, or stocking the galley carts? I know in some states as long as you are on airport property you don't need a CDL so could FA's drive the catering trucks to the aircraft and provision the aircraft? Or will they be assigned cleaning duties? I have to admit it is and intriguing solution to place flight attendants in the flight kitchens to avoid layoffs.

Secondly there are not several articles that have been given insight into how Delta was able to avoid FA's furloughs and now several of those articles are now stating Delta FA's will begin working one month on and on month off. During the month an FA is off are they being paid? Also does seniority determine which FA's are awarded an actual flight line which has them flying for a month and/or which FA's are stuck on kitchen duty for the month?


Just a reminder, no one was forced into a different role. They were offered as alternatives to flying. They were released as a bid, and those that were interested in temporarily trying a different department were awarded that role based on seniority.

The one month on, and one month off worked the same way. You had the option to fly one on and one off, no one was forced. If you don't want to fly a one on and one off, then you don't bid that option. You keep to your normal schedule. These were options that people were asking for so they could go back to school and pursue other avenues if they so wished.
 
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NWAESC
Posts: 1600
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Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:25 am

cvsirls wrote:
They were released as a bid, and those that were interested in temporarily trying a different department were awarded that role based on seniority.


Were these on a "regular" bid, or as Special Assignment via eBid? Any idea on how senior/junior they went?

Same questions for anyone that went to ACS.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
jayunited
Posts: 2946
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:03 am

Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:17 pm

cvsirls wrote:
Just a reminder, no one was forced into a different role. They were offered as alternatives to flying. They were released as a bid, and those that were interested in temporarily trying a different department were awarded that role based on seniority.

The one month on, and one month off worked the same way. You had the option to fly one on and one off, no one was forced. If you don't want to fly a one on and one off, then you don't bid that option. You keep to your normal schedule. These were options that people were asking for so they could go back to school and pursue other avenues if they so wished.


So you are saying a senior FA's with lets say 25 years as a FA could opt out of the one month on, one month off without pay and it would have no impact on lower seniority FA's?

Delta FA's have already seen Delta reduce their guaranteed minimum hours reduced (that happened months ago) so they are already bring home a smaller base paycheck. I guess what I'm trying to understand is does the one month on, one month off reduce their pay even further?

I'm not coming down on DL, having a job beats not having a job. Its just in other threads people made it seem like the system at DL is fair and that junior FA's at Delta would get a fair shake while their union counterparts are being screwed. If what you are saying is true and people can opt out of the one month off where does that leave the most junior FA's if lets say 50% of senior FA's have a change of heart and decide I can't afford to work one month on and one month off?

I understand junior FA's still have a job with benefits which beats no job. But what will their take home pay look like if FA's senior to them decided to opt out of the one month off? If we are talking about fairness then every DL FA's regardless of seniority should have the same opportunity and should be treated equal meaning there should be no option to opt out of the one month off because opting out creates a trickle down effect. Every DL FA should be required to work one month on, then take the next month off regardless of seniority so that all remaining junior FA's have the same opportunity to actually work.

If what you are saying is correct some of DL's junior FA's might be taking home much smaller paychecks than they are now (under the CARES Act) if senior FA's later this year or early next year begin to opt out of the one month off.
 
cvsirls
Posts: 11
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2017 9:49 pm

Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:41 pm

jayunited wrote:
cvsirls wrote:
Just a reminder, no one was forced into a different role. They were offered as alternatives to flying. They were released as a bid, and those that were interested in temporarily trying a different department were awarded that role based on seniority.

The one month on, and one month off worked the same way. You had the option to fly one on and one off, no one was forced. If you don't want to fly a one on and one off, then you don't bid that option. You keep to your normal schedule. These were options that people were asking for so they could go back to school and pursue other avenues if they so wished.


So you are saying a senior FA's with lets say 25 years as a FA could opt out of the one month on, one month off without pay and it would have no impact on lower seniority FA's?

Delta FA's have already seen Delta reduce their guaranteed minimum hours reduced (that happened months ago) so they are already bring home a smaller base paycheck. I guess what I'm trying to understand is does the one month on, one month off reduce their pay even further?

I'm not coming down on DL, having a job beats not having a job. Its just in other threads people made it seem like the system at DL is fair and that junior FA's at Delta would get a fair shake while their union counterparts are being screwed. If what you are saying is true and people can opt out of the one month off where does that leave the most junior FA's if lets say 50% of senior FA's have a change of heart and decide I can't afford to work one month on and one month off?

I understand junior FA's still have a job with benefits which beats no job. But what will their take home pay look like if FA's senior to them decided to opt out of the one month off? If we are talking about fairness then every DL FA's regardless of seniority should have the same opportunity and should be treated equal meaning there should be no option to opt out of the one month off because opting out creates a trickle down effect. Every DL FA should be required to work one month on, then take the next month off regardless of seniority so that all remaining junior FA's have the same opportunity to actually work.

If what you are saying is correct some of DL's junior FA's might be taking home much smaller paychecks than they are now (under the CARES Act) if senior FA's later this year or early next year begin to opt out of the one month off.


Well, with this scenario, there was a length that you commit to doing this for. So, in turn, you can't decide the next month that you want to switch back to a regular schedule. I believe the commitment was until next spring/ summer when flying is expected to pick up for the season.

I understand your point and what you are saying, however, the commitment length is what guarantees fairness throughout the ranks. The service options were not limited to just senior flight attendants, they were available for every flight attendant. There were some junior people who opted for this scenario as they could have a month off to do whatever. For those that switched to a different department, there was a commitment length. In some instances, it was for an entire year. But these were options that clearly stated the length and the role of the job when applying for this TDY position. These weren't the only options available, but there was an option for everyone that allowed each flight attendant to tailor their own flying schedule. If moving to one of these options did not work for you, you can continue to fly a regular schedule. Because of these available options, those who choose to fly a regular consistent schedule, will see a schedule more consistent to how it was before the start of the pandemic including the schedule value.
 
cvsirls
Posts: 11
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2017 9:49 pm

Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:49 pm

NWAESC wrote:
cvsirls wrote:
They were released as a bid, and those that were interested in temporarily trying a different department were awarded that role based on seniority.


Were these on a "regular" bid, or as Special Assignment via eBid? Any idea on how senior/junior they went?

Same questions for anyone that went to ACS.


Because there was a flight attendant overage, and some other departments were understaffed due to the retirement package and bringing jobs in house, they were able to offer these departmental switches to flight attendants only. I'm not sure on the structure, or how the seniority works when switching, but it was offered as a special assignment FA role or TDY. I don't think it was on Ebid, I remember there being a link sent to all FAs that allowed them to apply for a position or a schedule change, if they chose to do that.
 
ual4life
Posts: 41
Joined: Wed Jan 13, 2010 8:10 am

Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:53 pm

N312RC wrote:
Flflyer83 wrote:
Oh, this is going to be interesting... I guess if you shuffle them in to positions they don’t like and they quit, you can still claim that you didn’t furlough any...


Or, you could have no job. In a pandemic as serious as 1918.

Keep your health insurance. Keep some income coming in the door.

I think most Americans would rather have a job right now guaranteeing some basic income. The US doesn’t have a generous social safety net like the rest of the world.

I’m sure the employees who can’t handle a 25 percent pay cut tied to 25 percent less working hours can make up that pay cut by getting a job somewhere else on their many days off, or tighten their belt. Sorry you blew all your money living above your means, these are extreme times.

It never ceases to amaze me how the people on airliners.net profess to love aviation... but hate everything to do with aviation.


Well said! I’d rather have a job.
NNVII
 
cvsirls
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Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Wed Sep 16, 2020 2:02 pm

jayunited wrote:
cvsirls wrote:
Just a reminder, no one was forced into a different role. They were offered as alternatives to flying. They were released as a bid, and those that were interested in temporarily trying a different department were awarded that role based on seniority.

The one month on, and one month off worked the same way. You had the option to fly one on and one off, no one was forced. If you don't want to fly a one on and one off, then you don't bid that option. You keep to your normal schedule. These were options that people were asking for so they could go back to school and pursue other avenues if they so wished.


Delta FA's have already seen Delta reduce their guaranteed minimum hours reduced (that happened months ago) so they are already bring home a smaller base paycheck. I guess what I'm trying to understand is does the one month on, one month off reduce their pay even further?


Just doing a quick look at schedules this year, the average schedule value systemwide for each month since the start of this pandemic has been about 77.5hrs. There was a fear that schedules values would drop significantly, but due to voluntary leaves and retirements, the values have been holding steady close to 75hrs. The lowest it dropped was about 72 in April. and then it was 80 in August.
 
global1
Posts: 518
Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2014 5:31 pm

Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Wed Sep 16, 2020 3:05 pm

All options presented to flight attendants were clearly spelled out and awarded in seniority order.

As a schedule holder you can bid to for up to 97 hours ( this number can vary +\- 5 hours or so) if you wish to fly high. You also have the ability to pick up more time or drop time via the swap board or open time.

Jobs were saved by offering a generous early out/retirement package and putting together an array of creative options (including Temporary Duty Assignments to other divisions. Something I doubt is feasible at either UA or AA)

Bottom line is that, thank God, all Delta flight attendants and ground staff will have jobs, steady incomes, and benefits, post October 1st. We won’t be on pins and needles praying that this dysfunctional administration is able put forth a Cares package that covers airline workers by the end of the month.

I pray they can. I would hate to see a single colleague from any carrier in that situation. That said, you have to give Delta credit where credit is due. They have worked hard, bent over backwards, and looked under every rock to make this happen. I am proud and thankful to be a part of this organization.

PS: If ongoing talks with ALPA are fruitful and Cares2 happens, perhaps pilot redundancies can be greatly reduced or eliminated altogether as well.
 
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NWAESC
Posts: 1600
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Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Wed Sep 16, 2020 3:35 pm

cvsirls wrote:
don't think it was on Ebid, I remember there being a link sent to all FAs that allowed them to apply for a position or a schedule change, if they chose to do that.


Copy that & hanks. I don't remember seeing any of them on there either.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
NW
Posts: 90
Joined: Tue Jun 24, 2008 9:37 pm

Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Wed Sep 16, 2020 3:38 pm

Cactusjuba wrote:
Before mass furloughs or layoffs, the WARN Act requires employers to notify effected individuals of a potential job loss. Delta only sent 2,558 of these notices to pilots, no other employees. It's been apparent for weeks that come OCT 1, all non-contract Delta front-line workers would still be employed. Consider the timing of these two "no furlough through winter" announcements, weeks before a potential CARES II passage. Should that occur, brilliant labor relations PR stunt to end the pre-COVID union drives. Management wins employee loyalty today, but Uncle Sugar ends up paying the bill. Say CARES II doesn't happen, still a relatively small investment if it keeps out unions. Either a big win or a small win I'd say, great strategy by the BOD.

Just curious, DL received $5.4B solely for wages. They obviously didn't use it all with the reductions in hours+overtime+leaves, and the reduced earning of retirement & profit sharing. How much of that $5.4B is left to stretch beyond OCT 1st? The oft quoted $25M daily cash burn number includes labor costs, but conveniently leaves out CARES dollars that offset them. What's the full transparent cash burn?


There are exceptions to the WARN Act. I didn't receive 60 days notice the last time if was furloughed because there were less than 50 furloughed in my location. I don't see furloughs though for any frontline staff, at least not job wise.

I've been thinking the same with regards to your PR stunt comment, many pilots I talk to have said the same.
 
airtechy
Posts: 765
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 7:35 am

Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Wed Sep 16, 2020 5:48 pm

Cactusjuba wrote:
Before mass furloughs or layoffs, the WARN Act requires employers to notify effected individuals of a potential job loss. Delta only sent 2,558 of these notices to pilots, no other employees. It's been apparent for weeks that come OCT 1, all non-contract Delta front-line workers would still be employed. Consider the timing of these two "no furlough through winter" announcements, weeks before a potential CARES II passage. Should that occur, brilliant labor relations PR stunt to end the pre-COVID union drives. Management wins employee loyalty today, but Uncle Sugar ends up paying the bill. Say CARES II doesn't happen, still a relatively small investment if it keeps out unions. Either a big win or a small win I'd say, great strategy by the BOD.

Just curious, DL received $5.4B solely for wages. They obviously didn't use it all with the reductions in hours+overtime+leaves, and the reduced earning of retirement & profit sharing. How much of that $5.4B is left to stretch beyond OCT 1st? The oft quoted $25M daily cash burn number includes labor costs, but conveniently leaves out CARES dollars that offset them. What's the full transparent cash burn?


I'm having trouble understanding how a series of Delta employee actions that seem to have preserved most jobs can reasonably be called a "stunt". Are you saying that Delta did all these job maneuvers to keep out unions ... or that it was a 'side benefit'? Maybe I'm missing your several points, but overall do you see these employee actions as a good thing or a bad thing considering the state of the industry?
 
FlyingElvii
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Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Wed Sep 16, 2020 7:20 pm

To be fair, Delta offloaded a huge number of staff when they sold DGS to Argenbright. All of those layoffs don't count as "Delta".
 
FlyingElvii
Posts: 938
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Wed Sep 16, 2020 7:21 pm

airtechy wrote:
Cactusjuba wrote:
Before mass furloughs or layoffs, the WARN Act requires employers to notify effected individuals of a potential job loss. Delta only sent 2,558 of these notices to pilots, no other employees. It's been apparent for weeks that come OCT 1, all non-contract Delta front-line workers would still be employed. Consider the timing of these two "no furlough through winter" announcements, weeks before a potential CARES II passage. Should that occur, brilliant labor relations PR stunt to end the pre-COVID union drives. Management wins employee loyalty today, but Uncle Sugar ends up paying the bill. Say CARES II doesn't happen, still a relatively small investment if it keeps out unions. Either a big win or a small win I'd say, great strategy by the BOD.

Just curious, DL received $5.4B solely for wages. They obviously didn't use it all with the reductions in hours+overtime+leaves, and the reduced earning of retirement & profit sharing. How much of that $5.4B is left to stretch beyond OCT 1st? The oft quoted $25M daily cash burn number includes labor costs, but conveniently leaves out CARES dollars that offset them. What's the full transparent cash burn?


I'm having trouble understanding how a series of Delta employee actions that seem to have preserved most jobs can reasonably be called a "stunt". Are you saying that Delta did all these job maneuvers to keep out unions ... or that it was a 'side benefit'? Maybe I'm missing your several points, but overall do you see these employee actions as a good thing or a bad thing considering the state of the industry?

See below...
Delta got lucky and offloaded thousands of employees to Argenbright before all of this began.
 
airtechy
Posts: 765
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 7:35 am

Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:05 pm

FlyingElvii wrote:
To be fair, Delta offloaded a huge number of staff when they sold DGS to Argenbright. All of those layoffs don't count as "Delta".

Fair to who? If Argenbright immediately furloughed/laid off all these people and Delta knew that was going to happen, I would say that was pretty bad optics. Somehow, I can't see that being the case, and it certainly wasn't if the sale occurred prior to all the CV mess happening. I don't know that I would use the work 'lucky' as management saying they dodged a bigger bullet, but I guess it does apply.

The person that sleeps on the other side of the bed from me took the retirement package and thought it was very generous so I have a 'minor' interest in all this. I still think that given all the 'present conditions' that Delta's facing they did an outstanding job with all the employee options. If they get some good PR out of it, so much the better.
 
Cactusjuba
Posts: 247
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2017 8:06 am

Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Thu Sep 17, 2020 4:38 am

airtechy wrote:
Cactusjuba wrote:
Before mass furloughs or layoffs, the WARN Act requires employers to notify effected individuals of a potential job loss. Delta only sent 2,558 of these notices to pilots, no other employees. It's been apparent for weeks that come OCT 1, all non-contract Delta front-line workers would still be employed. Consider the timing of these two "no furlough through winter" announcements, weeks before a potential CARES II passage. Should that occur, brilliant labor relations PR stunt to end the pre-COVID union drives. Management wins employee loyalty today, but Uncle Sugar ends up paying the bill. Say CARES II doesn't happen, still a relatively small investment if it keeps out unions. Either a big win or a small win I'd say, great strategy by the BOD.

Just curious, DL received $5.4B solely for wages. They obviously didn't use it all with the reductions in hours+overtime+leaves, and the reduced earning of retirement & profit sharing. How much of that $5.4B is left to stretch beyond OCT 1st? The oft quoted $25M daily cash burn number includes labor costs, but conveniently leaves out CARES dollars that offset them. What's the full transparent cash burn?


I'm having trouble understanding how a series of Delta employee actions that seem to have preserved most jobs can reasonably be called a "stunt". Are you saying that Delta did all these job maneuvers to keep out unions ... or that it was a 'side benefit'? Maybe I'm missing your several points, but overall do you see these employee actions as a good thing or a bad thing considering the state of the industry?



I'm just highlighting that Delta saves billions over 10-20 years by keeping 70k at-will employees without contractual protections. Delta could very well impose work hour cuts, and later layoff. They can do whatever they want, and that's the way they want to keep it. They set whatever bar they want for their employees. The only leverage employees have is unionizing. That's a primary driver in this management-employee relationship. In my opinion, during this crisis Delta will choose to carry extra employees even if arbitrary "cost savings" aren't met. They know how overstaffed all airline ranks are, and that their peers are unionized. This is an opportunity for optics. This is the PR "stunt":

"Airline X,Y, & Z are furloughing, and they're union (reason for their layoffs?), and we aren't, because you don't have a union! Unions are incapable of negotiating voluntary leaves or work sharing, we think. Yes, our pilots are union, and they are so unreasonable and difficult to work with. They'll be the only ones we furlough, prayers for ~2,000 of them and their families. Besides, with all the money you save in union dues, you ramper dudes can instead buy an Xbox or Football tickets. :roll: "
Last edited by Cactusjuba on Thu Sep 17, 2020 4:52 am, edited 4 times in total.
 
JoseSalazar
Posts: 248
Joined: Mon Oct 14, 2019 3:18 am

Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Thu Sep 17, 2020 6:30 am

Cactusjuba wrote:
airtechy wrote:
Cactusjuba wrote:
Before mass furloughs or layoffs, the WARN Act requires employers to notify effected individuals of a potential job loss. Delta only sent 2,558 of these notices to pilots, no other employees. It's been apparent for weeks that come OCT 1, all non-contract Delta front-line workers would still be employed. Consider the timing of these two "no furlough through winter" announcements, weeks before a potential CARES II passage. Should that occur, brilliant labor relations PR stunt to end the pre-COVID union drives. Management wins employee loyalty today, but Uncle Sugar ends up paying the bill. Say CARES II doesn't happen, still a relatively small investment if it keeps out unions. Either a big win or a small win I'd say, great strategy by the BOD.

Just curious, DL received $5.4B solely for wages. They obviously didn't use it all with the reductions in hours+overtime+leaves, and the reduced earning of retirement & profit sharing. How much of that $5.4B is left to stretch beyond OCT 1st? The oft quoted $25M daily cash burn number includes labor costs, but conveniently leaves out CARES dollars that offset them. What's the full transparent cash burn?


I'm having trouble understanding how a series of Delta employee actions that seem to have preserved most jobs can reasonably be called a "stunt". Are you saying that Delta did all these job maneuvers to keep out unions ... or that it was a 'side benefit'? Maybe I'm missing your several points, but overall do you see these employee actions as a good thing or a bad thing considering the state of the industry?



I'm just highlighting that Delta saves billions over 10-20 years by keeping 70k at-will employees without contractual protections. Delta could very well impose work hour cuts, and later layoff. They can do whatever they want, and that's the way they want to keep it. They set whatever bar they want for their employees. The only leverage employees have is unionizing. That's a primary driver in this management-employee relationship. In my opinion, during this crisis Delta will choose to carry extra employees even if arbitrary "cost savings" aren't met. They know how overstaffed all airline ranks are, and that their peers are unionized. This is an opportunity for optics. This is the PR "stunt":

"Airline X,Y, & Z are furloughing, and they're union (reason for their layoffs?), and we aren't, because you don't have a union! Unions are incapable of negotiating voluntary leaves or work sharing, we think. Yes, our pilots are union, and they are so unreasonable and difficult to work with. They'll be the only ones we furlough, prayers for ~2,000 of them and their families. Besides, with all the money you save in union dues, you ramper dudes can instead buy an Xbox or Football tickets. :roll: "

That is so Ford & Harrison.
 
jfern022
Posts: 183
Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2016 9:24 pm

Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Thu Sep 17, 2020 6:45 am

Cactusjuba wrote:
airtechy wrote:
Cactusjuba wrote:
Before mass furloughs or layoffs, the WARN Act requires employers to notify effected individuals of a potential job loss. Delta only sent 2,558 of these notices to pilots, no other employees. It's been apparent for weeks that come OCT 1, all non-contract Delta front-line workers would still be employed. Consider the timing of these two "no furlough through winter" announcements, weeks before a potential CARES II passage. Should that occur, brilliant labor relations PR stunt to end the pre-COVID union drives. Management wins employee loyalty today, but Uncle Sugar ends up paying the bill. Say CARES II doesn't happen, still a relatively small investment if it keeps out unions. Either a big win or a small win I'd say, great strategy by the BOD.

Just curious, DL received $5.4B solely for wages. They obviously didn't use it all with the reductions in hours+overtime+leaves, and the reduced earning of retirement & profit sharing. How much of that $5.4B is left to stretch beyond OCT 1st? The oft quoted $25M daily cash burn number includes labor costs, but conveniently leaves out CARES dollars that offset them. What's the full transparent cash burn?


I'm having trouble understanding how a series of Delta employee actions that seem to have preserved most jobs can reasonably be called a "stunt". Are you saying that Delta did all these job maneuvers to keep out unions ... or that it was a 'side benefit'? Maybe I'm missing your several points, but overall do you see these employee actions as a good thing or a bad thing considering the state of the industry?



I'm just highlighting that Delta saves billions over 10-20 years by keeping 70k at-will employees without contractual protections. Delta could very well impose work hour cuts, and later layoff. They can do whatever they want, and that's the way they want to keep it. They set whatever bar they want for their employees. The only leverage employees have is unionizing. That's a primary driver in this management-employee relationship. In my opinion, during this crisis Delta will choose to carry extra employees even if arbitrary "cost savings" aren't met. They know how overstaffed all airline ranks are, and that their peers are unionized. This is an opportunity for optics. This is the PR "stunt":

"Airline X,Y, & Z are furloughing, and they're union (reason for their layoffs?), and we aren't, because you don't have a union! Unions are incapable of negotiating voluntary leaves or work sharing, we think. Yes, our pilots are union, and they are so unreasonable and difficult to work with. They'll be the only ones we furlough, prayers for ~2,000 of them and their families. Besides, with all the money you save in union dues, you ramper dudes can instead buy an Xbox or Football tickets. :roll: "


And yet with all your posturing and conjecture, DL employees will still get their checks, meanwhile how many thousands of UA and AA employees will get furloughed with no idea, if at all, if recall.

UA is shafting their FA’s. Do a little research on AFA’s tactics towards their FA’s during this. Exactly why they’d be toxic on property.
 
global1
Posts: 518
Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2014 5:31 pm

Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Thu Sep 17, 2020 12:21 pm

"while you ramper dudes can instead buy an Xbox and football tickets".

How elitist and condescending
.
They're paying for housing, will have medical care, and putting food on the table for their families.

You embody the toxic culture at your carrier (I assume AA with your 'cactus" call sign) of which we want no part of at Delta.
 
jayunited
Posts: 2946
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:03 am

Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Thu Sep 17, 2020 12:56 pm

cvsirls wrote:
Well, with this scenario, there was a length that you commit to doing this for. So, in turn, you can't decide the next month that you want to switch back to a regular schedule. I believe the commitment was until next spring/ summer when flying is expected to pick up for the season.

I understand your point and what you are saying, however, the commitment length is what guarantees fairness throughout the ranks. The service options were not limited to just senior flight attendants, they were available for every flight attendant. There were some junior people who opted for this scenario as they could have a month off to do whatever. For those that switched to a different department, there was a commitment length. In some instances, it was for an entire year. But these were options that clearly stated the length and the role of the job when applying for this TDY position. These weren't the only options available, but there was an option for everyone that allowed each flight attendant to tailor their own flying schedule. If moving to one of these options did not work for you, you can continue to fly a regular schedule. Because of these available options, those who choose to fly a regular consistent schedule, will see a schedule more consistent to how it was before the start of the pandemic including the schedule value.



Wow that is interesting thank you for the response.

Things are very much different over at Delta. United FA's bid for a line every month, I thought it was the same at Delta and perhaps it was pre-COVID. But now Delta FA's will have their schedule through either spring 2021 or summer 2021 that is huge.

You are saying they can not change their mind even if lets say their husband/wife/partner looses their job and a two household income becomes a one household income, a Delta FA's is locked into their bid for the duration of the commitment. If that particular FA needs extra hours to make ends meet they would then have to try and pick up trips or kitchen work another FA's is giving up, they can not bump an FA junior to them off their line by opting out of the one month one one month off commitment.

Now it is starting to make sense, again there is an internal conflict within me union vs. nonunion I see the pros and cons of both. However DL's way of dealing with this issue is interesting and unconventional but looking at how you have describe it, it looks like it works when it comes to keeping people employed.

One last question what was the minimum monthly guarantee hours prior to COVID for all Delta FA's?
 
StinkyPinky
Posts: 61
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:03 pm

Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Thu Sep 17, 2020 1:39 pm

global1 wrote:
"while you ramper dudes can instead buy an Xbox and football tickets".

How elitist and condescending
.
They're paying for housing, will have medical care, and putting food on the table for their families.

You embody the toxic culture at your carrier (I assume AA with your 'cactus" call sign) of which we want no part of at Delta.


Thats what Delta management was suggesting its employees could better spend their money on rather than on union dues. Instead of paying dues and getting a fair contract, Delta suggested that was money they could use for game consoles, manicures, and Netflix. That was used as part of their anti-union campaign.
 
trueblew
Posts: 157
Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:16 pm

Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Thu Sep 17, 2020 1:44 pm

global1 wrote:
"while you ramper dudes can instead buy an Xbox and football tickets".

How elitist and condescending
.
They're paying for housing, will have medical care, and putting food on the table for their families.

You embody the toxic culture at your carrier (I assume AA with your 'cactus" call sign) of which we want no part of at Delta.


What you are calling elitist and condescending was.... the actual Delta anti-union PR campaign. And you're right. Delta is extremely condescending.

I think you made the other poster's point for him.

Image
 
panamair
Posts: 4340
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2001 2:24 am

Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Thu Sep 17, 2020 2:28 pm

jayunited wrote:
cvsirls wrote:
Well, with this scenario, there was a length that you commit to doing this for. So, in turn, you can't decide the next month that you want to switch back to a regular schedule. I believe the commitment was until next spring/ summer when flying is expected to pick up for the season.

I understand your point and what you are saying, however, the commitment length is what guarantees fairness throughout the ranks. The service options were not limited to just senior flight attendants, they were available for every flight attendant. There were some junior people who opted for this scenario as they could have a month off to do whatever. For those that switched to a different department, there was a commitment length. In some instances, it was for an entire year. But these were options that clearly stated the length and the role of the job when applying for this TDY position. These weren't the only options available, but there was an option for everyone that allowed each flight attendant to tailor their own flying schedule. If moving to one of these options did not work for you, you can continue to fly a regular schedule. Because of these available options, those who choose to fly a regular consistent schedule, will see a schedule more consistent to how it was before the start of the pandemic including the schedule value.



Wow that is interesting thank you for the response.

Things are very much different over at Delta. United FA's bid for a line every month, I thought it was the same at Delta and perhaps it was pre-COVID. But now Delta FA's will have their schedule through either spring 2021 or summer 2021 that is huge.

You are saying they can not change their mind even if lets say their husband/wife/partner looses their job and a two household income becomes a one household income, a Delta FA's is locked into their bid for the duration of the commitment. If that particular FA needs extra hours to make ends meet they would then have to try and pick up trips or kitchen work another FA's is giving up, they can not bump an FA junior to them off their line by opting out of the one month one one month off commitment.


I am not sure why you think it's that different from other airlines. All of these are special time-boxed programs (voluntary leaves of absence, one month on/off, temporary transfer to another department) that are not available during 'normal' times. Airlines like UA and AA have the first one (short and long-term leaves of absence) but not the others. If an FA chooses to sign up for one of these programs, they are committing to the program for the specified period of time. The same goes for UA and AA FAs - if they chose a six month leave of absence, they are gone for six months, they cannot just decide to come back to work one month during this six-month period just because their spouse loses his or her job. Delta FAs who do not choose any of these types of programs will continue 'as-is' in that they will bid for their trips every month, get a line and potential "A-days" etc.
Last edited by panamair on Thu Sep 17, 2020 2:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
global1
Posts: 518
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Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Thu Sep 17, 2020 2:30 pm

My point was that payrolls preserved at Delta will be used to provide for families.

Comment on toxic culture stands. I lived one at Northwest. The difference is night to day.
 
ltbewr
Posts: 15266
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Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Thu Sep 17, 2020 3:34 pm

DL's management is likely trying to hedge their bets that upon significant distribution of the very awaited Covid-19 vaccine by late Q2 they can return much of their domestic USA and by late Q3 significant international service they will not lose the trained staff they need to speed up recovery for the airline and gain customers.
 
brilondon
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Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Thu Sep 17, 2020 3:39 pm

Flflyer83 wrote:
departedflights wrote:
I didn't notice if the article mentioned how many flight attendants were being displaced to catering and reservations positions. .


Oh, this is going to be interesting... I guess if you shuffle them in to positions they don’t like and they quit, you can still claim that you didn’t furlough any...


I once had a boss tell me if I didn't like it, go pound salt. If you don't like it, find something you do.
Rush forever Closer To My Heart
 
Cactusjuba
Posts: 247
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Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Thu Sep 17, 2020 4:14 pm

global1 wrote:
My point was that payrolls preserved at Delta will be used to provide for families.

Comment on toxic culture stands. I lived one at Northwest. The difference is night to day.


I'm very happy employees have job security
for 6 months. Trust me, I know intimately what its like to face furlough. Union doesn't mean bad culture, just like non-union doesn't equal great culture. It's comes down your respective leadership. With a contract, you have an agreement in writing that must be followed.
• Ex: many thousands of mainline jobs would disappear if the Pilot's scope clause went away, shifting more flying to regionals and JVs. That's not even debatable.
• Ex:2 ALPA negotiated profit sharing 15 years ago, and it wouldn't exist without them.

Right now DL is highly incentivized to use this crisis to win the anti-union campaign they've been invested in for years. Ask yourself, how much of the 25M daily cash burn is reduced by leaves and such? And how much of the 5.4B in CARES is still unspent? DL can afford to carry over extra employees to be ready for a rebound, and win hearts and minds. Just like they can afford to still invest in SLC/LAX/LGA terminal construction. Long term investment. Be happy for no furloughs, but don't buy their union propaganda.

Quick history of where profit sharing came from
http://www.alpa.org/dal/investindeltapilots

A look under the hood at the corporate PR machine
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/delta-airlines-anti-union_n_5cd99d0de4b0615b08171d6a
 
jayunited
Posts: 2946
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Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Thu Sep 17, 2020 5:34 pm

panamair wrote:
I am not sure why you think it's that different from other airlines. All of these are special time-boxed programs (voluntary leaves of absence, one month on/off, temporary transfer to another department) that are not available during 'normal' times. Airlines like UA and AA have the first one (short and long-term leaves of absence) but not the others. If an FA chooses to sign up for one of these programs, they are committing to the program for the specified period of time. The same goes for UA and AA FAs - if they chose a six month leave of absence, they are gone for six months, they cannot just decide to come back to work one month during this six-month period just because their spouse loses his or her job. Delta FAs who do not choose any of these types of programs will continue 'as-is' in that they will bid for their trips every month, get a line and potential "A-days" etc.



I understand now, there there is a month on month off program, there is the continue "as-is" program, and then the flight kitchen. So which every one an FA's bids for (or which ever one their seniority can hold) is what they have until at least spring 2021. What ever program an FA's choses they then will still bid for an actual flight line monthly or every other month if they are in the month on/off program and FA's in the kitchen can still pick up actual trips that other FA's are giving away.

So basically of the FA's that remain everyone has a job but it is possible that lower seniority FA's may not have has many options as their higher seniority coworker.
 
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klm617
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Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Thu Sep 17, 2020 6:31 pm

jfern022 wrote:
Cactusjuba wrote:
airtechy wrote:

I'm having trouble understanding how a series of Delta employee actions that seem to have preserved most jobs can reasonably be called a "stunt". Are you saying that Delta did all these job maneuvers to keep out unions ... or that it was a 'side benefit'? Maybe I'm missing your several points, but overall do you see these employee actions as a good thing or a bad thing considering the state of the industry?



I'm just highlighting that Delta saves billions over 10-20 years by keeping 70k at-will employees without contractual protections. Delta could very well impose work hour cuts, and later layoff. They can do whatever they want, and that's the way they want to keep it. They set whatever bar they want for their employees. The only leverage employees have is unionizing. That's a primary driver in this management-employee relationship. In my opinion, during this crisis Delta will choose to carry extra employees even if arbitrary "cost savings" aren't met. They know how overstaffed all airline ranks are, and that their peers are unionized. This is an opportunity for optics. This is the PR "stunt":

"Airline X,Y, & Z are furloughing, and they're union (reason for their layoffs?), and we aren't, because you don't have a union! Unions are incapable of negotiating voluntary leaves or work sharing, we think. Yes, our pilots are union, and they are so unreasonable and difficult to work with. They'll be the only ones we furlough, prayers for ~2,000 of them and their families. Besides, with all the money you save in union dues, you ramper dudes can instead buy an Xbox or Football tickets. :roll: "


And yet with all your posturing and conjecture, DL employees will still get their checks, meanwhile how many thousands of UA and AA employees will get furloughed with no idea, if at all, if recall.

UA is shafting their FA’s. Do a little research on AFA’s tactics towards their FA’s during this. Exactly why they’d be toxic on property.


Actually that's the way they want it to seem. While Delta holds their employee's in limbo paying them a wage that is not livable while the laid of folks at AA and UA can get on with rebuilding their lives. We only have to look as far as Delta's Ready Reserve scheme that doesn't allow people to work fulltime so that they save billion on benefits they don't have to pay these people.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
TYWoolman
Posts: 617
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Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Thu Sep 17, 2020 9:59 pm

If the gov't loans under the CARES ACT was to keep employees on the payroll, and Delta is on record stating they will not take any additional PPP money from the gov't yet will raise 9 billion privately, can't the pilots claim that the SkyMiles-backed proceeds be used to salvage their jobs?
 
777Mech
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Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Thu Sep 17, 2020 10:13 pm

klm617 wrote:
jfern022 wrote:
Cactusjuba wrote:


I'm just highlighting that Delta saves billions over 10-20 years by keeping 70k at-will employees without contractual protections. Delta could very well impose work hour cuts, and later layoff. They can do whatever they want, and that's the way they want to keep it. They set whatever bar they want for their employees. The only leverage employees have is unionizing. That's a primary driver in this management-employee relationship. In my opinion, during this crisis Delta will choose to carry extra employees even if arbitrary "cost savings" aren't met. They know how overstaffed all airline ranks are, and that their peers are unionized. This is an opportunity for optics. This is the PR "stunt":

"Airline X,Y, & Z are furloughing, and they're union (reason for their layoffs?), and we aren't, because you don't have a union! Unions are incapable of negotiating voluntary leaves or work sharing, we think. Yes, our pilots are union, and they are so unreasonable and difficult to work with. They'll be the only ones we furlough, prayers for ~2,000 of them and their families. Besides, with all the money you save in union dues, you ramper dudes can instead buy an Xbox or Football tickets. :roll: "


And yet with all your posturing and conjecture, DL employees will still get their checks, meanwhile how many thousands of UA and AA employees will get furloughed with no idea, if at all, if recall.

UA is shafting their FA’s. Do a little research on AFA’s tactics towards their FA’s during this. Exactly why they’d be toxic on property.


Actually that's the way they want it to seem. While Delta holds their employee's in limbo paying them a wage that is not livable while the laid of folks at AA and UA can get on with rebuilding their lives. We only have to look as far as Delta's Ready Reserve scheme that doesn't allow people to work fulltime so that they save billion on benefits they don't have to pay these people.


You do realize employees have a choice as to whether they want to work for Delta or not, and they also know what benefits they will receive when employed as a ready reserve employee? Employees ultimately have a choice, they could have taken the package and started "rebuilding their lives" as you put it, but those who made the choice did so knowing what they will have.

Just because you have an axe to grind with DL because of any perceived slight of DTW, doesn't mean DL is running a slave ship as you describe.
 
CobaltScar
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Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Thu Sep 17, 2020 10:31 pm

TYWoolman wrote:
If the gov't loans under the CARES ACT was to keep employees on the payroll, and Delta is on record stating they will not take any additional PPP money from the gov't yet will raise 9 billion privately, can't the pilots claim that the SkyMiles-backed proceeds be used to salvage their jobs?



Cares act ends Oct 1st for them. Why would they use the 9 billion raised privately to pay Pilots to sit at home? They are a for profit business, not a wellfare agency. That money is to keep the business going.
 
global1
Posts: 518
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Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Thu Sep 17, 2020 10:37 pm

He has a great idea.

Just terminate thousands of jobs and do them all a huge favor, as AA and UA threaten to do, by forcing them to ‘move on’ and rebuild their lives. And, at the same time, spare them the indignity of having to further endure the gulag conditions at Delta.

A remnant of the toxic culture I’m glad to have in the rear view mirror.

I’m certain if Delta found a cure for cancer and rescued the earth from destruction by averting a collision with an asteroid, some people would criticize them nonetheless.
 
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NWAESC
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Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Thu Sep 17, 2020 10:57 pm

We also have an undercurrent of toxic positivity running through our carrier. Neither help right now.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
TYWoolman
Posts: 617
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 8:24 pm

Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:00 pm

CobaltScar wrote:
TYWoolman wrote:
If the gov't loans under the CARES ACT was to keep employees on the payroll, and Delta is on record stating they will not take any additional PPP money from the gov't yet will raise 9 billion privately, can't the pilots claim that the SkyMiles-backed proceeds be used to salvage their jobs?



Cares act ends Oct 1st for them. Why would they use the 9 billion raised privately to pay Pilots to sit at home? They are a for profit business, not a wellfare agency. That money is to keep the business going.


I get your point 100%, but wondering what the union has to say when Delta is willfully not accepting money from the gov't that stipulates to be used for payroll. Would not the union have a valid argument to fight the layoffs if Delta is not accepting further loans specific to employment retention? One thing to agree on is the uncertainty in these times, but within that uncertainty is the possibility of air-travel rebounding as well.
 
777Mech
Posts: 991
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Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Fri Sep 18, 2020 12:06 am

TYWoolman wrote:
CobaltScar wrote:
TYWoolman wrote:
If the gov't loans under the CARES ACT was to keep employees on the payroll, and Delta is on record stating they will not take any additional PPP money from the gov't yet will raise 9 billion privately, can't the pilots claim that the SkyMiles-backed proceeds be used to salvage their jobs?



Cares act ends Oct 1st for them. Why would they use the 9 billion raised privately to pay Pilots to sit at home? They are a for profit business, not a wellfare agency. That money is to keep the business going.


I get your point 100%, but wondering what the union has to say when Delta is willfully not accepting money from the gov't that stipulates to be used for payroll. Would not the union have a valid argument to fight the layoffs if Delta is not accepting further loans specific to employment retention? One thing to agree on is the uncertainty in these times, but within that uncertainty is the possibility of air-travel rebounding as well.


They don't have a leg to stand on. You can't force a company to take out loans.

As far as air-travel rebounding, that's why they are being furloughed, instead of totally laid off. DL will see the booking trends and adjust staffing/callback if necessary. If they choose to not work for DL because of this, they don't have to pick up the phone.
 
TYWoolman
Posts: 617
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 8:24 pm

Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Fri Sep 18, 2020 12:21 am

777Mech wrote:
TYWoolman wrote:
CobaltScar wrote:


Cares act ends Oct 1st for them. Why would they use the 9 billion raised privately to pay Pilots to sit at home? They are a for profit business, not a wellfare agency. That money is to keep the business going.


I get your point 100%, but wondering what the union has to say when Delta is willfully not accepting money from the gov't that stipulates to be used for payroll. Would not the union have a valid argument to fight the layoffs if Delta is not accepting further loans specific to employment retention? One thing to agree on is the uncertainty in these times, but within that uncertainty is the possibility of air-travel rebounding as well.


They don't have a leg to stand on. You can't force a company to take out loans.

As far as air-travel rebounding, that's why they are being furloughed, instead of totally laid off. DL will see the booking trends and adjust staffing/callback if necessary. If they choose to not work for DL because of this, they don't have to pick up the phone.


I hear you on that. I agree with Delta not taking the gov't loan, but relative to any other legacy carriers taking the loan I would think the union would have a valid negotiating gripe about it (not that they should since the overall health of the carrier long-term should be taken into consideration)!
 
Cactusjuba
Posts: 247
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Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Fri Sep 18, 2020 7:21 am

TYWoolman wrote:
777Mech wrote:
TYWoolman wrote:

I get your point 100%, but wondering what the union has to say when Delta is willfully not accepting money from the gov't that stipulates to be used for payroll. Would not the union have a valid argument to fight the layoffs if Delta is not accepting further loans specific to employment retention? One thing to agree on is the uncertainty in these times, but within that uncertainty is the possibility of air-travel rebounding as well.


They don't have a leg to stand on. You can't force a company to take out loans.

As far as air-travel rebounding, that's why they are being furloughed, instead of totally laid off. DL will see the booking trends and adjust staffing/callback if necessary. If they choose to not work for DL because of this, they don't have to pick up the phone.


I hear you on that. I agree with Delta not taking the gov't loan, but relative to any other legacy carriers taking the loan I would think the union would have a valid negotiating gripe about it (not that they should since the overall health of the carrier long-term should be taken into consideration)!


Executives don't like the strings attached, and are careful to not acknowledge that some of these "strings" are caps on executive compensation/stock buybacks/dividends. Whether they take the Gov loan or not makes no difference to ALPA. It does indicate that they are in better financial position than their peers, which was already known.

Pilots have faced stonewalled negotiations. Management came up with a number they wanted saved. ALPA came up with multiple industry standard voluntary options to reduce headcount, back in March, that met these goals. They've been outright refused up until this week, 2 weeks before furloughs hit. Delta left tens of millions on the table by refusing any ideas outside unpaid LOAs. Its always, "yes other pilot groups have this, but if we give you that we'd have to give it to everyone else as well, and there goes the cost savings". It hurts the pilots' bargaining position being the only union group, as they negotiate for everyone else. There is negative incentive for management to give options literally every legacy and LCC offered. This risks making the sole union group look more successful (like with profit sharing). The opposite is true.. laying off the only unionized group is fantastic optics for the non-contract employees. Delta has threatened all along that they want cuts the method they want them (involuntarily) or they execute 1900 furloughs for all to see. Pilots demanded exhausting all voluntary measures first, like they'd been promised. Hence the stalemate, hence the furloughs.
 
777Mech
Posts: 991
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Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Fri Sep 18, 2020 8:25 am

Cactusjuba wrote:
TYWoolman wrote:
777Mech wrote:

They don't have a leg to stand on. You can't force a company to take out loans.

As far as air-travel rebounding, that's why they are being furloughed, instead of totally laid off. DL will see the booking trends and adjust staffing/callback if necessary. If they choose to not work for DL because of this, they don't have to pick up the phone.


I hear you on that. I agree with Delta not taking the gov't loan, but relative to any other legacy carriers taking the loan I would think the union would have a valid negotiating gripe about it (not that they should since the overall health of the carrier long-term should be taken into consideration)!


Executives don't like the strings attached, and are careful to not acknowledge that some of these "strings" are caps on executive compensation/stock buybacks/dividends. Whether they take the Gov loan or not makes no difference to ALPA. It does indicate that they are in better financial position than their peers, which was already known.

Pilots have faced stonewalled negotiations. Management came up with a number they wanted saved. ALPA came up with multiple industry standard voluntary options to reduce headcount, back in March, that met these goals. They've been outright refused up until this week, 2 weeks before furloughs hit. Delta left tens of millions on the table by refusing any ideas outside unpaid LOAs. Its always, "yes other pilot groups have this, but if we give you that we'd have to give it to everyone else as well, and there goes the cost savings". It hurts the pilots' bargaining position being the only union group, as they negotiate for everyone else. There is negative incentive for management to give options literally every legacy and LCC offered. This risks making the sole union group look more successful (like with profit sharing). The opposite is true.. laying off the only unionized group is fantastic optics for the non-contract employees. Delta has threatened all along that they want cuts the method they want them (involuntarily) or they execute 1900 furloughs for all to see. Pilots demanded exhausting all voluntary measures first, like they'd been promised. Hence the stalemate, hence the furloughs.


Right, and management knows they hold all of the cards, in the name of unprecedented times.

Just like that, the pilot shortage is no more.
 
kiowa
Posts: 759
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 12:37 am

Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Fri Sep 18, 2020 3:01 pm

trueblew wrote:
global1 wrote:
"while you ramper dudes can instead buy an Xbox and football tickets".

How elitist and condescending
.
They're paying for housing, will have medical care, and putting food on the table for their families.

You embody the toxic culture at your carrier (I assume AA with your 'cactus" call sign) of which we want no part of at Delta.


What you are calling elitist and condescending was.... the actual Delta anti-union PR campaign. And you're right. Delta is extremely condescending.

I think you made the other poster's point for him.

Image



That is pretty demeaning on Delta's part. When did they put that out?
 
TonyClifton
Posts: 255
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Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Fri Sep 18, 2020 3:08 pm

777Mech wrote:
Cactusjuba wrote:
TYWoolman wrote:

I hear you on that. I agree with Delta not taking the gov't loan, but relative to any other legacy carriers taking the loan I would think the union would have a valid negotiating gripe about it (not that they should since the overall health of the carrier long-term should be taken into consideration)!


Executives don't like the strings attached, and are careful to not acknowledge that some of these "strings" are caps on executive compensation/stock buybacks/dividends. Whether they take the Gov loan or not makes no difference to ALPA. It does indicate that they are in better financial position than their peers, which was already known.

Pilots have faced stonewalled negotiations. Management came up with a number they wanted saved. ALPA came up with multiple industry standard voluntary options to reduce headcount, back in March, that met these goals. They've been outright refused up until this week, 2 weeks before furloughs hit. Delta left tens of millions on the table by refusing any ideas outside unpaid LOAs. Its always, "yes other pilot groups have this, but if we give you that we'd have to give it to everyone else as well, and there goes the cost savings". It hurts the pilots' bargaining position being the only union group, as they negotiate for everyone else. There is negative incentive for management to give options literally every legacy and LCC offered. This risks making the sole union group look more successful (like with profit sharing). The opposite is true.. laying off the only unionized group is fantastic optics for the non-contract employees. Delta has threatened all along that they want cuts the method they want them (involuntarily) or they execute 1900 furloughs for all to see. Pilots demanded exhausting all voluntary measures first, like they'd been promised. Hence the stalemate, hence the furloughs.


Right, and management knows they hold all of the cards, in the name of unprecedented times.

Just like that, the pilot shortage is no more.

Nothing to do with pilot shortage. Legacies have no issue with the shortage/hiring. It’s been a regional issue.
 
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NWAESC
Posts: 1600
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Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Fri Sep 18, 2020 3:10 pm

kiowa wrote:
That is pretty demeaning on Delta's part. When did they put that out?


Spring 2019...
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
Cactusjuba
Posts: 247
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2017 8:06 am

Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Fri Sep 18, 2020 3:26 pm

kiowa wrote:
trueblew wrote:
global1 wrote:
"while you ramper dudes can instead buy an Xbox and football tickets".

How elitist and condescending
.
They're paying for housing, will have medical care, and putting food on the table for their families.

You embody the toxic culture at your carrier (I assume AA with your 'cactus" call sign) of which we want no part of at Delta.


What you are calling elitist and condescending was.... the actual Delta anti-union PR campaign. And you're right. Delta is extremely condescending.

I think you made the other poster's point for him.

Image



That is pretty demeaning on Delta's part. When did they put that out?


Don't forget watching football and beer with the boys.

https://www.paddleyourownkanoo.com/2019/05/20/delta-ceo-ed-bastion-admits-union-busting-adverts-were-inappropriate-and-poorly-crafted/


https://www.huffpost.com/entry/delta-airlines-anti-union_n_5cd99d0de4b0615b08171d6a
 
airtechy
Posts: 765
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 7:35 am

Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Fri Sep 18, 2020 5:28 pm

It's hard to judge whether what the pilots .. via their union .. have offered Delta to alleviate the furloughs is comparable to what the other work groups, as detailed in this thread, have offered. You would think that if a truly innovative way to save Delta money while protecting pilots jobs had been proposed we would have heard about it .. from both Delta and DALPA. In the present crisis I hope it's not .. "great idea Delta but our contract won't allow it".
 
Cactusjuba
Posts: 247
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2017 8:06 am

Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Fri Sep 18, 2020 6:02 pm

airtechy wrote:
It's hard to judge whether what the pilots .. via their union .. have offered Delta to alleviate the furloughs is comparable to what the other work groups, as detailed in this thread, have offered. You would think that if a truly innovative way to save Delta money while protecting pilots jobs had been proposed we would have heard about it .. from both Delta and DALPA. In the present crisis I hope it's not .. "great idea Delta but our contract won't allow it".


-Voluntary monthly SILs
Voluntary extended paid leaves offered in 6, 12, 24, 36, 48 or 60-month increments

-Voluntary blank lines which would allow a pilot to build their schedule throughout the course of a month

-Voluntary reduced value lines, set at 80%, of the ALV for pilots who wish to fly a partial month

-Voluntary reduced value ultra-long call reserve lines, set at 80% of the published reserve guarantee with:
•Additional X days
•24-hour call-out
•No short call assignments
•A lower step in the trip coverage sequence

-A temporary exemption to USERRA restrictions which would allow military pilots to go on extended orders without accumulating toward the 5-year limitation

-Expansion of the eligibility window allowing military members to be Air Reserve Technicians (ARTs) in their respective military units


These were offered months ago, and mirror similar actions done at the following airlines: United, American, Southwest, Jetblue, Hawaiian, Alaska, Spirit, Air Wisconsin. Delta has refused to even let military pilots go beyond USERRA limits... why?
 
User avatar
klm617
Posts: 5094
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Fri Sep 18, 2020 6:14 pm

airtechy wrote:
It's hard to judge whether what the pilots .. via their union .. have offered Delta to alleviate the furloughs is comparable to what the other work groups, as detailed in this thread, have offered. You would think that if a truly innovative way to save Delta money while protecting pilots jobs had been proposed we would have heard about it .. from both Delta and DALPA. In the present crisis I hope it's not .. "great idea Delta but our contract won't allow it".


Don't you think it's a bit odd that the only work group facing lay-off is the one that is unionized. There is a message in that make no mistake.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
User avatar
NWAESC
Posts: 1600
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:02 pm

Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Fri Sep 18, 2020 8:22 pm

Cactusjuba wrote:
-Voluntary monthly SILs
Voluntary extended paid leaves offered in 6, 12, 24, 36, 48 or 60-month increments

-Voluntary blank lines which would allow a pilot to build their schedule throughout the course of a month


What is a SIL?
How would a blank line work?
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
dstblj52
Posts: 497
Joined: Tue Nov 19, 2019 8:38 pm

Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Fri Sep 18, 2020 8:42 pm

NWAESC wrote:
Cactusjuba wrote:
-Voluntary monthly SILs
Voluntary extended paid leaves offered in 6, 12, 24, 36, 48 or 60-month increments

-Voluntary blank lines which would allow a pilot to build their schedule throughout the course of a month


What is a SIL?
How would a blank line work?

Sil special incentive line basically voluntary temporary low or no pay lines
Basically like reserve with no obligation to pick anything up but if anything comes up in open time they could pick it up probably won't have minimum garuantees attached.
 
BTV290
Posts: 43
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:33 pm

Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Fri Sep 18, 2020 8:50 pm

Flflyer83 wrote:
departedflights wrote:
I didn't notice if the article mentioned how many flight attendants were being displaced to catering and reservations positions. .


Oh, this is going to be interesting... I guess if you shuffle them in to positions they don’t like and they quit, you can still claim that you didn’t furlough any...


This was entirely voluntary, and for those that said "voluntary or you get furloughed"... No. Incorrect. These were special assignment positions put out that actually ended up being pretty competitive in some bases. A friend of mine put in and was awarded the role. Some people are doing the work of assembling the snack kits and delivering them to the aircraft. Others are in liaison positions, where they sit in the ACC with the other ops agents and monitor communications from flight crews regarding catering, and then work to resolve those issues before departure. It's a pretty interesting gig, and those that put in and were awarded it are the types that have management aspirations, or wanted to try something new in the industry.

This wasn't something anyone "got stuck with" or was "forced into"... This was creatively hiding people in different budget areas. It also simultaneously bridged operational gaps that were created by the re-organisation and early departures, as well as provided some unique and beneficial opportunities for a usually very pigeon-holed work group to take advantage of.

Also to clarify, RES and ACS were going to be the next areas for special assignment if they weren't able to get 3000 takers on the split lines, one-on-one-off or catering special assignments. They got more than enough interest for drop the requisite number of hours from the budget, so no one actually ended up going to RES or ACS.

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