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jayunited
Posts: 2977
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:03 am

Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Thu Sep 17, 2020 5:34 pm

panamair wrote:
I am not sure why you think it's that different from other airlines. All of these are special time-boxed programs (voluntary leaves of absence, one month on/off, temporary transfer to another department) that are not available during 'normal' times. Airlines like UA and AA have the first one (short and long-term leaves of absence) but not the others. If an FA chooses to sign up for one of these programs, they are committing to the program for the specified period of time. The same goes for UA and AA FAs - if they chose a six month leave of absence, they are gone for six months, they cannot just decide to come back to work one month during this six-month period just because their spouse loses his or her job. Delta FAs who do not choose any of these types of programs will continue 'as-is' in that they will bid for their trips every month, get a line and potential "A-days" etc.



I understand now, there there is a month on month off program, there is the continue "as-is" program, and then the flight kitchen. So which every one an FA's bids for (or which ever one their seniority can hold) is what they have until at least spring 2021. What ever program an FA's choses they then will still bid for an actual flight line monthly or every other month if they are in the month on/off program and FA's in the kitchen can still pick up actual trips that other FA's are giving away.

So basically of the FA's that remain everyone has a job but it is possible that lower seniority FA's may not have has many options as their higher seniority coworker.
 
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klm617
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Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Thu Sep 17, 2020 6:31 pm

jfern022 wrote:
Cactusjuba wrote:
airtechy wrote:

I'm having trouble understanding how a series of Delta employee actions that seem to have preserved most jobs can reasonably be called a "stunt". Are you saying that Delta did all these job maneuvers to keep out unions ... or that it was a 'side benefit'? Maybe I'm missing your several points, but overall do you see these employee actions as a good thing or a bad thing considering the state of the industry?



I'm just highlighting that Delta saves billions over 10-20 years by keeping 70k at-will employees without contractual protections. Delta could very well impose work hour cuts, and later layoff. They can do whatever they want, and that's the way they want to keep it. They set whatever bar they want for their employees. The only leverage employees have is unionizing. That's a primary driver in this management-employee relationship. In my opinion, during this crisis Delta will choose to carry extra employees even if arbitrary "cost savings" aren't met. They know how overstaffed all airline ranks are, and that their peers are unionized. This is an opportunity for optics. This is the PR "stunt":

"Airline X,Y, & Z are furloughing, and they're union (reason for their layoffs?), and we aren't, because you don't have a union! Unions are incapable of negotiating voluntary leaves or work sharing, we think. Yes, our pilots are union, and they are so unreasonable and difficult to work with. They'll be the only ones we furlough, prayers for ~2,000 of them and their families. Besides, with all the money you save in union dues, you ramper dudes can instead buy an Xbox or Football tickets. :roll: "


And yet with all your posturing and conjecture, DL employees will still get their checks, meanwhile how many thousands of UA and AA employees will get furloughed with no idea, if at all, if recall.

UA is shafting their FA’s. Do a little research on AFA’s tactics towards their FA’s during this. Exactly why they’d be toxic on property.


Actually that's the way they want it to seem. While Delta holds their employee's in limbo paying them a wage that is not livable while the laid of folks at AA and UA can get on with rebuilding their lives. We only have to look as far as Delta's Ready Reserve scheme that doesn't allow people to work fulltime so that they save billion on benefits they don't have to pay these people.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
TYWoolman
Posts: 617
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 8:24 pm

Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Thu Sep 17, 2020 9:59 pm

If the gov't loans under the CARES ACT was to keep employees on the payroll, and Delta is on record stating they will not take any additional PPP money from the gov't yet will raise 9 billion privately, can't the pilots claim that the SkyMiles-backed proceeds be used to salvage their jobs?
 
777Mech
Posts: 998
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2016 10:54 pm

Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Thu Sep 17, 2020 10:13 pm

klm617 wrote:
jfern022 wrote:
Cactusjuba wrote:


I'm just highlighting that Delta saves billions over 10-20 years by keeping 70k at-will employees without contractual protections. Delta could very well impose work hour cuts, and later layoff. They can do whatever they want, and that's the way they want to keep it. They set whatever bar they want for their employees. The only leverage employees have is unionizing. That's a primary driver in this management-employee relationship. In my opinion, during this crisis Delta will choose to carry extra employees even if arbitrary "cost savings" aren't met. They know how overstaffed all airline ranks are, and that their peers are unionized. This is an opportunity for optics. This is the PR "stunt":

"Airline X,Y, & Z are furloughing, and they're union (reason for their layoffs?), and we aren't, because you don't have a union! Unions are incapable of negotiating voluntary leaves or work sharing, we think. Yes, our pilots are union, and they are so unreasonable and difficult to work with. They'll be the only ones we furlough, prayers for ~2,000 of them and their families. Besides, with all the money you save in union dues, you ramper dudes can instead buy an Xbox or Football tickets. :roll: "


And yet with all your posturing and conjecture, DL employees will still get their checks, meanwhile how many thousands of UA and AA employees will get furloughed with no idea, if at all, if recall.

UA is shafting their FA’s. Do a little research on AFA’s tactics towards their FA’s during this. Exactly why they’d be toxic on property.


Actually that's the way they want it to seem. While Delta holds their employee's in limbo paying them a wage that is not livable while the laid of folks at AA and UA can get on with rebuilding their lives. We only have to look as far as Delta's Ready Reserve scheme that doesn't allow people to work fulltime so that they save billion on benefits they don't have to pay these people.


You do realize employees have a choice as to whether they want to work for Delta or not, and they also know what benefits they will receive when employed as a ready reserve employee? Employees ultimately have a choice, they could have taken the package and started "rebuilding their lives" as you put it, but those who made the choice did so knowing what they will have.

Just because you have an axe to grind with DL because of any perceived slight of DTW, doesn't mean DL is running a slave ship as you describe.
 
CobaltScar
Posts: 754
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Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Thu Sep 17, 2020 10:31 pm

TYWoolman wrote:
If the gov't loans under the CARES ACT was to keep employees on the payroll, and Delta is on record stating they will not take any additional PPP money from the gov't yet will raise 9 billion privately, can't the pilots claim that the SkyMiles-backed proceeds be used to salvage their jobs?



Cares act ends Oct 1st for them. Why would they use the 9 billion raised privately to pay Pilots to sit at home? They are a for profit business, not a wellfare agency. That money is to keep the business going.
 
global1
Posts: 518
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Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Thu Sep 17, 2020 10:37 pm

He has a great idea.

Just terminate thousands of jobs and do them all a huge favor, as AA and UA threaten to do, by forcing them to ‘move on’ and rebuild their lives. And, at the same time, spare them the indignity of having to further endure the gulag conditions at Delta.

A remnant of the toxic culture I’m glad to have in the rear view mirror.

I’m certain if Delta found a cure for cancer and rescued the earth from destruction by averting a collision with an asteroid, some people would criticize them nonetheless.
 
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NWAESC
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Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Thu Sep 17, 2020 10:57 pm

We also have an undercurrent of toxic positivity running through our carrier. Neither help right now.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
TYWoolman
Posts: 617
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 8:24 pm

Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:00 pm

CobaltScar wrote:
TYWoolman wrote:
If the gov't loans under the CARES ACT was to keep employees on the payroll, and Delta is on record stating they will not take any additional PPP money from the gov't yet will raise 9 billion privately, can't the pilots claim that the SkyMiles-backed proceeds be used to salvage their jobs?



Cares act ends Oct 1st for them. Why would they use the 9 billion raised privately to pay Pilots to sit at home? They are a for profit business, not a wellfare agency. That money is to keep the business going.


I get your point 100%, but wondering what the union has to say when Delta is willfully not accepting money from the gov't that stipulates to be used for payroll. Would not the union have a valid argument to fight the layoffs if Delta is not accepting further loans specific to employment retention? One thing to agree on is the uncertainty in these times, but within that uncertainty is the possibility of air-travel rebounding as well.
 
777Mech
Posts: 998
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2016 10:54 pm

Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Fri Sep 18, 2020 12:06 am

TYWoolman wrote:
CobaltScar wrote:
TYWoolman wrote:
If the gov't loans under the CARES ACT was to keep employees on the payroll, and Delta is on record stating they will not take any additional PPP money from the gov't yet will raise 9 billion privately, can't the pilots claim that the SkyMiles-backed proceeds be used to salvage their jobs?



Cares act ends Oct 1st for them. Why would they use the 9 billion raised privately to pay Pilots to sit at home? They are a for profit business, not a wellfare agency. That money is to keep the business going.


I get your point 100%, but wondering what the union has to say when Delta is willfully not accepting money from the gov't that stipulates to be used for payroll. Would not the union have a valid argument to fight the layoffs if Delta is not accepting further loans specific to employment retention? One thing to agree on is the uncertainty in these times, but within that uncertainty is the possibility of air-travel rebounding as well.


They don't have a leg to stand on. You can't force a company to take out loans.

As far as air-travel rebounding, that's why they are being furloughed, instead of totally laid off. DL will see the booking trends and adjust staffing/callback if necessary. If they choose to not work for DL because of this, they don't have to pick up the phone.
 
TYWoolman
Posts: 617
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Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Fri Sep 18, 2020 12:21 am

777Mech wrote:
TYWoolman wrote:
CobaltScar wrote:


Cares act ends Oct 1st for them. Why would they use the 9 billion raised privately to pay Pilots to sit at home? They are a for profit business, not a wellfare agency. That money is to keep the business going.


I get your point 100%, but wondering what the union has to say when Delta is willfully not accepting money from the gov't that stipulates to be used for payroll. Would not the union have a valid argument to fight the layoffs if Delta is not accepting further loans specific to employment retention? One thing to agree on is the uncertainty in these times, but within that uncertainty is the possibility of air-travel rebounding as well.


They don't have a leg to stand on. You can't force a company to take out loans.

As far as air-travel rebounding, that's why they are being furloughed, instead of totally laid off. DL will see the booking trends and adjust staffing/callback if necessary. If they choose to not work for DL because of this, they don't have to pick up the phone.


I hear you on that. I agree with Delta not taking the gov't loan, but relative to any other legacy carriers taking the loan I would think the union would have a valid negotiating gripe about it (not that they should since the overall health of the carrier long-term should be taken into consideration)!
 
Cactusjuba
Posts: 247
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Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Fri Sep 18, 2020 7:21 am

TYWoolman wrote:
777Mech wrote:
TYWoolman wrote:

I get your point 100%, but wondering what the union has to say when Delta is willfully not accepting money from the gov't that stipulates to be used for payroll. Would not the union have a valid argument to fight the layoffs if Delta is not accepting further loans specific to employment retention? One thing to agree on is the uncertainty in these times, but within that uncertainty is the possibility of air-travel rebounding as well.


They don't have a leg to stand on. You can't force a company to take out loans.

As far as air-travel rebounding, that's why they are being furloughed, instead of totally laid off. DL will see the booking trends and adjust staffing/callback if necessary. If they choose to not work for DL because of this, they don't have to pick up the phone.


I hear you on that. I agree with Delta not taking the gov't loan, but relative to any other legacy carriers taking the loan I would think the union would have a valid negotiating gripe about it (not that they should since the overall health of the carrier long-term should be taken into consideration)!


Executives don't like the strings attached, and are careful to not acknowledge that some of these "strings" are caps on executive compensation/stock buybacks/dividends. Whether they take the Gov loan or not makes no difference to ALPA. It does indicate that they are in better financial position than their peers, which was already known.

Pilots have faced stonewalled negotiations. Management came up with a number they wanted saved. ALPA came up with multiple industry standard voluntary options to reduce headcount, back in March, that met these goals. They've been outright refused up until this week, 2 weeks before furloughs hit. Delta left tens of millions on the table by refusing any ideas outside unpaid LOAs. Its always, "yes other pilot groups have this, but if we give you that we'd have to give it to everyone else as well, and there goes the cost savings". It hurts the pilots' bargaining position being the only union group, as they negotiate for everyone else. There is negative incentive for management to give options literally every legacy and LCC offered. This risks making the sole union group look more successful (like with profit sharing). The opposite is true.. laying off the only unionized group is fantastic optics for the non-contract employees. Delta has threatened all along that they want cuts the method they want them (involuntarily) or they execute 1900 furloughs for all to see. Pilots demanded exhausting all voluntary measures first, like they'd been promised. Hence the stalemate, hence the furloughs.
 
777Mech
Posts: 998
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Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Fri Sep 18, 2020 8:25 am

Cactusjuba wrote:
TYWoolman wrote:
777Mech wrote:

They don't have a leg to stand on. You can't force a company to take out loans.

As far as air-travel rebounding, that's why they are being furloughed, instead of totally laid off. DL will see the booking trends and adjust staffing/callback if necessary. If they choose to not work for DL because of this, they don't have to pick up the phone.


I hear you on that. I agree with Delta not taking the gov't loan, but relative to any other legacy carriers taking the loan I would think the union would have a valid negotiating gripe about it (not that they should since the overall health of the carrier long-term should be taken into consideration)!


Executives don't like the strings attached, and are careful to not acknowledge that some of these "strings" are caps on executive compensation/stock buybacks/dividends. Whether they take the Gov loan or not makes no difference to ALPA. It does indicate that they are in better financial position than their peers, which was already known.

Pilots have faced stonewalled negotiations. Management came up with a number they wanted saved. ALPA came up with multiple industry standard voluntary options to reduce headcount, back in March, that met these goals. They've been outright refused up until this week, 2 weeks before furloughs hit. Delta left tens of millions on the table by refusing any ideas outside unpaid LOAs. Its always, "yes other pilot groups have this, but if we give you that we'd have to give it to everyone else as well, and there goes the cost savings". It hurts the pilots' bargaining position being the only union group, as they negotiate for everyone else. There is negative incentive for management to give options literally every legacy and LCC offered. This risks making the sole union group look more successful (like with profit sharing). The opposite is true.. laying off the only unionized group is fantastic optics for the non-contract employees. Delta has threatened all along that they want cuts the method they want them (involuntarily) or they execute 1900 furloughs for all to see. Pilots demanded exhausting all voluntary measures first, like they'd been promised. Hence the stalemate, hence the furloughs.


Right, and management knows they hold all of the cards, in the name of unprecedented times.

Just like that, the pilot shortage is no more.
 
kiowa
Posts: 762
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 12:37 am

Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Fri Sep 18, 2020 3:01 pm

trueblew wrote:
global1 wrote:
"while you ramper dudes can instead buy an Xbox and football tickets".

How elitist and condescending
.
They're paying for housing, will have medical care, and putting food on the table for their families.

You embody the toxic culture at your carrier (I assume AA with your 'cactus" call sign) of which we want no part of at Delta.


What you are calling elitist and condescending was.... the actual Delta anti-union PR campaign. And you're right. Delta is extremely condescending.

I think you made the other poster's point for him.

Image



That is pretty demeaning on Delta's part. When did they put that out?
 
TonyClifton
Posts: 267
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Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Fri Sep 18, 2020 3:08 pm

777Mech wrote:
Cactusjuba wrote:
TYWoolman wrote:

I hear you on that. I agree with Delta not taking the gov't loan, but relative to any other legacy carriers taking the loan I would think the union would have a valid negotiating gripe about it (not that they should since the overall health of the carrier long-term should be taken into consideration)!


Executives don't like the strings attached, and are careful to not acknowledge that some of these "strings" are caps on executive compensation/stock buybacks/dividends. Whether they take the Gov loan or not makes no difference to ALPA. It does indicate that they are in better financial position than their peers, which was already known.

Pilots have faced stonewalled negotiations. Management came up with a number they wanted saved. ALPA came up with multiple industry standard voluntary options to reduce headcount, back in March, that met these goals. They've been outright refused up until this week, 2 weeks before furloughs hit. Delta left tens of millions on the table by refusing any ideas outside unpaid LOAs. Its always, "yes other pilot groups have this, but if we give you that we'd have to give it to everyone else as well, and there goes the cost savings". It hurts the pilots' bargaining position being the only union group, as they negotiate for everyone else. There is negative incentive for management to give options literally every legacy and LCC offered. This risks making the sole union group look more successful (like with profit sharing). The opposite is true.. laying off the only unionized group is fantastic optics for the non-contract employees. Delta has threatened all along that they want cuts the method they want them (involuntarily) or they execute 1900 furloughs for all to see. Pilots demanded exhausting all voluntary measures first, like they'd been promised. Hence the stalemate, hence the furloughs.


Right, and management knows they hold all of the cards, in the name of unprecedented times.

Just like that, the pilot shortage is no more.

Nothing to do with pilot shortage. Legacies have no issue with the shortage/hiring. It’s been a regional issue.
 
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NWAESC
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Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Fri Sep 18, 2020 3:10 pm

kiowa wrote:
That is pretty demeaning on Delta's part. When did they put that out?


Spring 2019...
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
Cactusjuba
Posts: 247
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2017 8:06 am

Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Fri Sep 18, 2020 3:26 pm

kiowa wrote:
trueblew wrote:
global1 wrote:
"while you ramper dudes can instead buy an Xbox and football tickets".

How elitist and condescending
.
They're paying for housing, will have medical care, and putting food on the table for their families.

You embody the toxic culture at your carrier (I assume AA with your 'cactus" call sign) of which we want no part of at Delta.


What you are calling elitist and condescending was.... the actual Delta anti-union PR campaign. And you're right. Delta is extremely condescending.

I think you made the other poster's point for him.

Image



That is pretty demeaning on Delta's part. When did they put that out?


Don't forget watching football and beer with the boys.

https://www.paddleyourownkanoo.com/2019/05/20/delta-ceo-ed-bastion-admits-union-busting-adverts-were-inappropriate-and-poorly-crafted/


https://www.huffpost.com/entry/delta-airlines-anti-union_n_5cd99d0de4b0615b08171d6a
 
airtechy
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Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Fri Sep 18, 2020 5:28 pm

It's hard to judge whether what the pilots .. via their union .. have offered Delta to alleviate the furloughs is comparable to what the other work groups, as detailed in this thread, have offered. You would think that if a truly innovative way to save Delta money while protecting pilots jobs had been proposed we would have heard about it .. from both Delta and DALPA. In the present crisis I hope it's not .. "great idea Delta but our contract won't allow it".
 
Cactusjuba
Posts: 247
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2017 8:06 am

Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Fri Sep 18, 2020 6:02 pm

airtechy wrote:
It's hard to judge whether what the pilots .. via their union .. have offered Delta to alleviate the furloughs is comparable to what the other work groups, as detailed in this thread, have offered. You would think that if a truly innovative way to save Delta money while protecting pilots jobs had been proposed we would have heard about it .. from both Delta and DALPA. In the present crisis I hope it's not .. "great idea Delta but our contract won't allow it".


-Voluntary monthly SILs
Voluntary extended paid leaves offered in 6, 12, 24, 36, 48 or 60-month increments

-Voluntary blank lines which would allow a pilot to build their schedule throughout the course of a month

-Voluntary reduced value lines, set at 80%, of the ALV for pilots who wish to fly a partial month

-Voluntary reduced value ultra-long call reserve lines, set at 80% of the published reserve guarantee with:
•Additional X days
•24-hour call-out
•No short call assignments
•A lower step in the trip coverage sequence

-A temporary exemption to USERRA restrictions which would allow military pilots to go on extended orders without accumulating toward the 5-year limitation

-Expansion of the eligibility window allowing military members to be Air Reserve Technicians (ARTs) in their respective military units


These were offered months ago, and mirror similar actions done at the following airlines: United, American, Southwest, Jetblue, Hawaiian, Alaska, Spirit, Air Wisconsin. Delta has refused to even let military pilots go beyond USERRA limits... why?
 
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klm617
Posts: 5123
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Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Fri Sep 18, 2020 6:14 pm

airtechy wrote:
It's hard to judge whether what the pilots .. via their union .. have offered Delta to alleviate the furloughs is comparable to what the other work groups, as detailed in this thread, have offered. You would think that if a truly innovative way to save Delta money while protecting pilots jobs had been proposed we would have heard about it .. from both Delta and DALPA. In the present crisis I hope it's not .. "great idea Delta but our contract won't allow it".


Don't you think it's a bit odd that the only work group facing lay-off is the one that is unionized. There is a message in that make no mistake.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
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NWAESC
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Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Fri Sep 18, 2020 8:22 pm

Cactusjuba wrote:
-Voluntary monthly SILs
Voluntary extended paid leaves offered in 6, 12, 24, 36, 48 or 60-month increments

-Voluntary blank lines which would allow a pilot to build their schedule throughout the course of a month


What is a SIL?
How would a blank line work?
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
dstblj52
Posts: 509
Joined: Tue Nov 19, 2019 8:38 pm

Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Fri Sep 18, 2020 8:42 pm

NWAESC wrote:
Cactusjuba wrote:
-Voluntary monthly SILs
Voluntary extended paid leaves offered in 6, 12, 24, 36, 48 or 60-month increments

-Voluntary blank lines which would allow a pilot to build their schedule throughout the course of a month


What is a SIL?
How would a blank line work?

Sil special incentive line basically voluntary temporary low or no pay lines
Basically like reserve with no obligation to pick anything up but if anything comes up in open time they could pick it up probably won't have minimum garuantees attached.
 
BTV290
Posts: 44
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:33 pm

Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Fri Sep 18, 2020 8:50 pm

Flflyer83 wrote:
departedflights wrote:
I didn't notice if the article mentioned how many flight attendants were being displaced to catering and reservations positions. .


Oh, this is going to be interesting... I guess if you shuffle them in to positions they don’t like and they quit, you can still claim that you didn’t furlough any...


This was entirely voluntary, and for those that said "voluntary or you get furloughed"... No. Incorrect. These were special assignment positions put out that actually ended up being pretty competitive in some bases. A friend of mine put in and was awarded the role. Some people are doing the work of assembling the snack kits and delivering them to the aircraft. Others are in liaison positions, where they sit in the ACC with the other ops agents and monitor communications from flight crews regarding catering, and then work to resolve those issues before departure. It's a pretty interesting gig, and those that put in and were awarded it are the types that have management aspirations, or wanted to try something new in the industry.

This wasn't something anyone "got stuck with" or was "forced into"... This was creatively hiding people in different budget areas. It also simultaneously bridged operational gaps that were created by the re-organisation and early departures, as well as provided some unique and beneficial opportunities for a usually very pigeon-holed work group to take advantage of.

Also to clarify, RES and ACS were going to be the next areas for special assignment if they weren't able to get 3000 takers on the split lines, one-on-one-off or catering special assignments. They got more than enough interest for drop the requisite number of hours from the budget, so no one actually ended up going to RES or ACS.
 
airtechy
Posts: 770
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 7:35 am

Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Sat Sep 19, 2020 12:31 am

Cactusjuba wrote:
airtechy wrote:
It's hard to judge whether what the pilots .. via their union .. have offered Delta to alleviate the furloughs is comparable to what the other work groups, as detailed in this thread, have offered. You would think that if a truly innovative way to save Delta money while protecting pilots jobs had been proposed we would have heard about it .. from both Delta and DALPA. In the present crisis I hope it's not .. "great idea Delta but our contract won't allow it".


-Voluntary monthly SILs
Voluntary extended paid leaves offered in 6, 12, 24, 36, 48 or 60-month increments

-Voluntary blank lines which would allow a pilot to build their schedule throughout the course of a month

-Voluntary reduced value lines, set at 80%, of the ALV for pilots who wish to fly a partial month

-Voluntary reduced value ultra-long call reserve lines, set at 80% of the published reserve guarantee with:
•Additional X days
•24-hour call-out
•No short call assignments
•A lower step in the trip coverage sequence

-A temporary exemption to USERRA restrictions which would allow military pilots to go on extended orders without accumulating toward the 5-year limitation

-Expansion of the eligibility window allowing military members to be Air Reserve Technicians (ARTs) in their respective military units


These were offered months ago, and mirror similar actions done at the following airlines: United, American, Southwest, Jetblue, Hawaiian, Alaska, Spirit, Air Wisconsin. Delta has refused to even let military pilots go beyond USERRA limits... why?


How many of those would actually result in a reduction in a pilots paycheck? A lot of flight attendants took "unpaid leave" .. but "Voluntary extended paid leaves offered in 6, 12, 24, 36, 48 or 60-month increments" seems like getting paid to do nothing. :roll:
 
nwadeicer
Posts: 310
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2008 3:17 am

Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Sat Sep 19, 2020 4:26 am

BTV290 wrote:
Flflyer83 wrote:
departedflights wrote:
I didn't notice if the article mentioned how many flight attendants were being displaced to catering and reservations positions. .


Oh, this is going to be interesting... I guess if you shuffle them in to positions they don’t like and they quit, you can still claim that you didn’t furlough any...


This was entirely voluntary, and for those that said "voluntary or you get furloughed"... No. Incorrect. These were special assignment positions put out that actually ended up being pretty competitive in some bases. A friend of mine put in and was awarded the role. Some people are doing the work of assembling the snack kits and delivering them to the aircraft. Others are in liaison positions, where they sit in the ACC with the other ops agents and monitor communications from flight crews regarding catering, and then work to resolve those issues before departure. It's a pretty interesting gig, and those that put in and were awarded it are the types that have management aspirations, or wanted to try something new in the industry.

This wasn't something anyone "got stuck with" or was "forced into"... This was creatively hiding people in different budget areas. It also simultaneously bridged operational gaps that were created by the re-organisation and early departures, as well as provided some unique and beneficial opportunities for a usually very pigeon-holed work group to take advantage of.

Also to clarify, RES and ACS were going to be the next areas for special assignment if they weren't able to get 3000 takers on the split lines, one-on-one-off or catering special assignments. They got more than enough interest for drop the requisite number of hours from the budget, so no one actually ended up going to RES or ACS.


C'mon now, taking a ziplock baggie and throwing in a bottle of water, cheezit bag, biscoff cookie, napkin and a hand sanitizer? "Monitoring" whether or not a flight got their cheezit bags or not are management material? A ton of these stations lost their 9.00 an hour cabin services personnel and are replacing them with FA's. There isn't any "aspiration" in any of this. And yes, as was stated above, this is nothing but a dog whistle on Delta's part. Look we laid off union pilots but you non union peeps are good to go! No need for a union amiright??!!
I miss the Red Tail
 
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NWAESC
Posts: 1608
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Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Sat Sep 19, 2020 7:08 pm

dstblj52 wrote:
NWAESC wrote:
Cactusjuba wrote:
-Voluntary monthly SILs
Voluntary extended paid leaves offered in 6, 12, 24, 36, 48 or 60-month increments

-Voluntary blank lines which would allow a pilot to build their schedule throughout the course of a month


What is a SIL?
How would a blank line work?

Sil special incentive line basically voluntary temporary low or no pay lines
Basically like reserve with no obligation to pick anything up but if anything comes up in open time they could pick it up probably won't have minimum garuantees attached.


Gotcha! Thank you!
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
777Mech
Posts: 998
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Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Sat Sep 19, 2020 8:30 pm

airtechy wrote:
Cactusjuba wrote:
airtechy wrote:
It's hard to judge whether what the pilots .. via their union .. have offered Delta to alleviate the furloughs is comparable to what the other work groups, as detailed in this thread, have offered. You would think that if a truly innovative way to save Delta money while protecting pilots jobs had been proposed we would have heard about it .. from both Delta and DALPA. In the present crisis I hope it's not .. "great idea Delta but our contract won't allow it".


-Voluntary monthly SILs
Voluntary extended paid leaves offered in 6, 12, 24, 36, 48 or 60-month increments

-Voluntary blank lines which would allow a pilot to build their schedule throughout the course of a month

-Voluntary reduced value lines, set at 80%, of the ALV for pilots who wish to fly a partial month

-Voluntary reduced value ultra-long call reserve lines, set at 80% of the published reserve guarantee with:
•Additional X days
•24-hour call-out
•No short call assignments
•A lower step in the trip coverage sequence

-A temporary exemption to USERRA restrictions which would allow military pilots to go on extended orders without accumulating toward the 5-year limitation

-Expansion of the eligibility window allowing military members to be Air Reserve Technicians (ARTs) in their respective military units


These were offered months ago, and mirror similar actions done at the following airlines: United, American, Southwest, Jetblue, Hawaiian, Alaska, Spirit, Air Wisconsin. Delta has refused to even let military pilots go beyond USERRA limits... why?


How many of those would actually result in a reduction in a pilots paycheck? A lot of flight attendants took "unpaid leave" .. but "Voluntary extended paid leaves offered in 6, 12, 24, 36, 48 or 60-month increments" seems like getting paid to do nothing. :roll:


You hit the nail on the head. Seems like they want to sit at home and do nothing while also drawing a check. That's hardly bargaining. Why would DL let them do that when they could just furlough per contract they agreed to, and carry on. If they don't like it, go fly for another airline. It's really that simple.
 
BTV290
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Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Sat Sep 19, 2020 8:31 pm

nwadeicer wrote:
BTV290 wrote:
Flflyer83 wrote:

Oh, this is going to be interesting... I guess if you shuffle them in to positions they don’t like and they quit, you can still claim that you didn’t furlough any...


This was entirely voluntary, and for those that said "voluntary or you get furloughed"... No. Incorrect. These were special assignment positions put out that actually ended up being pretty competitive in some bases. A friend of mine put in and was awarded the role. Some people are doing the work of assembling the snack kits and delivering them to the aircraft. Others are in liaison positions, where they sit in the ACC with the other ops agents and monitor communications from flight crews regarding catering, and then work to resolve those issues before departure. It's a pretty interesting gig, and those that put in and were awarded it are the types that have management aspirations, or wanted to try something new in the industry.

This wasn't something anyone "got stuck with" or was "forced into"... This was creatively hiding people in different budget areas. It also simultaneously bridged operational gaps that were created by the re-organisation and early departures, as well as provided some unique and beneficial opportunities for a usually very pigeon-holed work group to take advantage of.

Also to clarify, RES and ACS were going to be the next areas for special assignment if they weren't able to get 3000 takers on the split lines, one-on-one-off or catering special assignments. They got more than enough interest for drop the requisite number of hours from the budget, so no one actually ended up going to RES or ACS.


C'mon now, taking a ziplock baggie and throwing in a bottle of water, cheezit bag, biscoff cookie, napkin and a hand sanitizer? "Monitoring" whether or not a flight got their cheezit bags or not are management material? A ton of these stations lost their 9.00 an hour cabin services personnel and are replacing them with FA's. There isn't any "aspiration" in any of this. And yes, as was stated above, this is nothing but a dog whistle on Delta's part. Look we laid off union pilots but you non union peeps are good to go! No need for a union amiright??!!


Yes. They are management material. I know all five of them in my station. FAs are not doing any work in the kitchen, here. Only in the tower. They handle close-to-departure catering issues that arise, and prevent actual management from having to step in when FAs are trying to hold departure for catering issues. These tower FAs are able to make final determinations regarding what is or isn't needed. No, it may not be a particularly challenging job, but neither is most of management so...
Not only is this a special assignment to save FA jobs, but it's also a way to improve catering vendor performance and relations.
 
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klm617
Posts: 5123
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Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Sat Sep 19, 2020 8:47 pm

airtechy wrote:
Cactusjuba wrote:
airtechy wrote:
It's hard to judge whether what the pilots .. via their union .. have offered Delta to alleviate the furloughs is comparable to what the other work groups, as detailed in this thread, have offered. You would think that if a truly innovative way to save Delta money while protecting pilots jobs had been proposed we would have heard about it .. from both Delta and DALPA. In the present crisis I hope it's not .. "great idea Delta but our contract won't allow it".


-Voluntary monthly SILs
Voluntary extended paid leaves offered in 6, 12, 24, 36, 48 or 60-month increments

-Voluntary blank lines which would allow a pilot to build their schedule throughout the course of a month

-Voluntary reduced value lines, set at 80%, of the ALV for pilots who wish to fly a partial month

-Voluntary reduced value ultra-long call reserve lines, set at 80% of the published reserve guarantee with:
•Additional X days
•24-hour call-out
•No short call assignments
•A lower step in the trip coverage sequence

-A temporary exemption to USERRA restrictions which would allow military pilots to go on extended orders without accumulating toward the 5-year limitation

-Expansion of the eligibility window allowing military members to be Air Reserve Technicians (ARTs) in their respective military units


These were offered months ago, and mirror similar actions done at the following airlines: United, American, Southwest, Jetblue, Hawaiian, Alaska, Spirit, Air Wisconsin. Delta has refused to even let military pilots go beyond USERRA limits... why?


How many of those would actually result in a reduction in a pilots paycheck? A lot of flight attendants took "unpaid leave" .. but "Voluntary extended paid leaves offered in 6, 12, 24, 36, 48 or 60-month increments" seems like getting paid to do nothing. :roll:


Why did the flight attendants accept unpaid leave. No one needed to sit home without pay until October 1st. The flight attendants did what they did out of free will but actually they should have stood pat and got what they deserved full time pay until Oct 1st why shame the pilots for standing up for themselves when others did not. Can't imagine that too many Delta share holders are sluming it during this crisis.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
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NWAESC
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Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Sun Sep 20, 2020 1:47 am

BTV290 wrote:
Yes. They are management material. I know all five of them in my station. FAs are not doing any work in the kitchen, here. Only in the tower. They handle close-to-departure catering issues that arise, and prevent actual management from having to step in when FAs are trying to hold departure for catering issues. These tower FAs are able to make final determinations regarding what is or isn't needed. No, it may not be a particularly challenging job, but neither is most of management so...
Not only is this a special assignment to save FA jobs, but it's also a way to improve catering vendor performance and relations.


I can appreciate the sentiment here, but every Ops/LDD agent has a copy of the "hold list" you mention.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
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NWAESC
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Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Sun Sep 20, 2020 1:53 am

klm617 wrote:
Why did the flight attendants accept unpaid leave. No one needed to sit home without pay until October 1st. The flight attendants did what they did out of free will but actually they should have stood pat and got what they deserved full time pay until Oct 1st why shame the pilots for standing up for themselves when others did not. Can't imagine that too many Delta share holders are sluming it during this crisis.


I know this was a rhetorical question, but there are some very real answers that counter the narrative of DL employees simply taking one for the team:

These weren't unpaid. For many, the extra $600/week +UI meant a pay increase.

With schools closed, parents might've preferred to stay home.

Depending on seniority, this might also be the first time people could hold time off in the summer.

All very valid reasons to hit the exits. Helping the company is just icing on the cake.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
BTV290
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Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Sun Sep 20, 2020 2:32 am

NWAESC wrote:
BTV290 wrote:
Yes. They are management material. I know all five of them in my station. FAs are not doing any work in the kitchen, here. Only in the tower. They handle close-to-departure catering issues that arise, and prevent actual management from having to step in when FAs are trying to hold departure for catering issues. These tower FAs are able to make final determinations regarding what is or isn't needed. No, it may not be a particularly challenging job, but neither is most of management so...
Not only is this a special assignment to save FA jobs, but it's also a way to improve catering vendor performance and relations.


I can appreciate the sentiment here, but every Ops/LDD agent has a copy of the "hold list" you mention.


Oh I know--even the Red Coats have that list. The issues simply get resolved faster when it happens FA to FA or FA to FA-manager. Inflight Service is a very insulated work group with (generally speaking) limited interaction with or knowledge of other areas of the operation. The types of FAs to throw a fit and hold a flight for something they don't need are also far more likely to fit into that category. When they're being told "no" by someone who can also say "Yes, I'm aware... I've done that job too... No you don't need it." or "Did you check the half-carts in the back?" they're more likely to drop the issue. But yes, I agree, it's not like some esoteric knowledge. This position simply acts as a triage for catering problems that likely don't need the time or energy of anyone in the tower, or in the concourse.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Sun Sep 20, 2020 4:06 pm

klm617 wrote:
airtechy wrote:
Cactusjuba wrote:

-Voluntary monthly SILs
Voluntary extended paid leaves offered in 6, 12, 24, 36, 48 or 60-month increments

-Voluntary blank lines which would allow a pilot to build their schedule throughout the course of a month

-Voluntary reduced value lines, set at 80%, of the ALV for pilots who wish to fly a partial month

-Voluntary reduced value ultra-long call reserve lines, set at 80% of the published reserve guarantee with:
•Additional X days
•24-hour call-out
•No short call assignments
•A lower step in the trip coverage sequence

-A temporary exemption to USERRA restrictions which would allow military pilots to go on extended orders without accumulating toward the 5-year limitation

-Expansion of the eligibility window allowing military members to be Air Reserve Technicians (ARTs) in their respective military units


These were offered months ago, and mirror similar actions done at the following airlines: United, American, Southwest, Jetblue, Hawaiian, Alaska, Spirit, Air Wisconsin. Delta has refused to even let military pilots go beyond USERRA limits... why?


How many of those would actually result in a reduction in a pilots paycheck? A lot of flight attendants took "unpaid leave" .. but "Voluntary extended paid leaves offered in 6, 12, 24, 36, 48 or 60-month increments" seems like getting paid to do nothing. :roll:


Why did the flight attendants accept unpaid leave. No one needed to sit home without pay until October 1st. The flight attendants did what they did out of free will but actually they should have stood pat and got what they deserved full time pay until Oct 1st why shame the pilots for standing up for themselves when others did not. Can't imagine that too many Delta share holders are sluming it during this crisis.

The flight attendants know that the more Delta losses now, the more layoffs later. No early retirement offer was required. They FAs could have sat still and waited for furloughs like many of their competitors.

The pilots get full employment until September 31st, then furloughs.
Labor is the #1 cost of airlines. Without a sharp cut in the costs, with yesterday having 638,575 TSA passengers versus a year ago 1,938,402 or 32.9% of the passengers, with little premium revenue.

No airline needs to survive. Delta is doing what they must to do the best for as many as possible.
United furlough over 16,000: https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/united- ... d=72771897
American airlines furloughs 19,000 + 23,000 early retirements and voluntary leaves: https://www.dallasnews.com/business/air ... n-october/

The pilots stood their ground and get involuntary furloughs:
https://www.fool.com/investing/2020/09/ ... except-fo/

[i]Notably, about 20% of Delta's employees -- of which there were roughly 91,000 at the beginning of 2020 -- have taken early retirement packages. Additionally, more than 40,000 Delta staff volunteered for short- or long-term unpaid leaves of absence, usually with a continuation of travel benefits and healthcare coverage.


As the airline's only large unionized mainline workgroup, Delta pilots have been spared the mandatory 25% hours reductions that have impacted most of the carrier's employees. But for the same reason, nearly 2,000 of Delta's roughly 11,000 remaining mainline pilots are facing furloughs in just two weeks.
[/i]

Delta needed to cut costs. Either more voluntary (e.g., the 25% hour reduction) or long term involuntary.

Throwing around things about the investors is a good way to scare them away in the future.

The reality is, some of Delta's competition didn't manage their debt well before this crisis. They will have a much harder time digging themselves out. The airline that saved as much money as possible will be able to grow the fastest on the other side of this recession when aircraft are cheap and all employees, including pilots, are plentiful.
American's credit rating is now 6 levels down into speculative (Junk): https://www.marketwatch.com/story/ameri ... 2020-06-03

United's credit rating is BB-, better than American's, but under 'negative review': https://www.fitchratings.com/entity/uni ... c-83067925

Allegiant is BB- (same as United): https://www.streetinsider.com/Credit+Ra ... 85408.html

SouthWest still has investment grade of BBB, but on negative (they can take a drop of one level and still be investment grade): https://www.spglobal.com/marketintellig ... 20outbreak.

Delta is BB, one above united. This is 2 levels down into speculative (junk): https://www.fool.com/investing/2020/03/ ... han%202019.

You are proposing the airlines spend more money they do not have. The lower the credit rating, the costlier and more leveraged borrowing must become. I feel for employees, but if there is a choice between 75% paycheck and benefits in this economy vs. full paycheck and then none, I know which I could pick.

Again, traffic is at 33% of prior levels, that means the biggest expense at airlines must be cut (employees). This isn't fun. This isn't good. By saving money, Delta will be able to expand far faster than UA or AA (but not as fast as WN) and bring back jobs quicker.

Lightsaber
Winter is coming.
 
airtechy
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Re: DL commits to no furloughs for F/As & ground employees

Sun Sep 20, 2020 5:46 pm

Lightsaber .. thank you! Agree 100 percent.
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: American to cut 19,000 jobs in October

Wed Sep 30, 2020 3:41 pm

"American Airlines CEO leaves door open to delaying Oct 1 furloughs:"

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-heal ... ce=twitter
Status for 2019/2020: AAdvantage Platinum, Delta Gold, Southwest A-List
 
32andBelow
Posts: 5009
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Re: American to cut 19,000 jobs in October

Wed Sep 30, 2020 4:18 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
"American Airlines CEO leaves door open to delaying Oct 1 furloughs:"

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-heal ... ce=twitter

Well there is airline money in the house bill. After last nights performance I wouldn’t be surprised for trump to start supporting another stimulus.
 
VC10DC10
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NY Times article on airline employee buyouts/early retirements

Wed Sep 30, 2020 4:21 pm

Apologies if posted elsewhere. The story has several interesting vignettes/profiles of airline employees who are moving on as a result of the industry turmoil in the wake of COVID-19: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/30/busi ... virus.html
 
AEROFAN
Posts: 1868
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Re: American to cut 19,000 jobs in October

Wed Sep 30, 2020 4:28 pm

No more taxpayers' money to airlines please. Thank you very much.
“You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant.” ~Harlan Ellison~
 
nine4nine
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Re: American to cut 19,000 jobs in October

Wed Sep 30, 2020 4:40 pm

AEROFAN wrote:
No more taxpayers' money to airlines please. Thank you very much.



Are you ok with them giving billions to other countries in economic/foreign aid?

Or would you rather see us use our money for us? To prop up our business and enterprise here on home turf. Airlines are essential to the fabric of our society. Without them we will only be able to see, or afford to see relatives, business associates via zoom. Would you like to see hundreds of thousands of unemployed pilots, mechanics, FA’s and other airline employees jobless and fighting for a position against many others to be a cashier at the local WalMart? Then we lose Boeing, and our engineering and ingenuity in aerospace in the world, not to mention all of those jobs as well. The trickle down effect would be disasterous, and the only people who would be able to afford to fly would be the wealthy. Mind you the hordes of unemployed will be astronomical and any recovery to Pre covid levels would take decades.

Think about the consequence of your statement.
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Aaron747
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Re: American to cut 19,000 jobs in October

Wed Sep 30, 2020 4:53 pm

nine4nine wrote:
AEROFAN wrote:
No more taxpayers' money to airlines please. Thank you very much.



Are you ok with them giving billions to other countries in economic/foreign aid?

Or would you rather see us use our money for us? To prop up our business and enterprise here on home turf. Airlines are essential to the fabric of our society. Without them we will only be able to see, or afford to see relatives, business associates via zoom. Would you like to see hundreds of thousands of unemployed pilots, mechanics, FA’s and other airline employees jobless and fighting for a position against many others to be a cashier at the local WalMart? Then we lose Boeing, and our engineering and ingenuity in aerospace in the world, not to mention all of those jobs as well. The trickle down effect would be disasterous, and the only people who would be able to afford to fly would be the wealthy. Mind you the hordes of unemployed will be astronomical and any recovery to Pre covid levels would take decades.

Think about the consequence of your statement.


Many Americans share the sentiment - why spare airline employees when so many others are affected? Are hotels, conventions, and restaurants less important?
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
MIflyer12
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Re: American to cut 19,000 jobs in October

Wed Sep 30, 2020 4:55 pm

nine4nine wrote:
AEROFAN wrote:
No more taxpayers' money to airlines please. Thank you very much.



Are you ok with them giving billions to other countries in economic/foreign aid?


That's an old trope. The U.S. budget for foreign aid isn't particularly large (CARES Act aid to carriers already exceeds the 2020 budget for USAID) , and most of it is dedicated food aid (helping U.S. farmers) or military aid (helping U.S. arms sellers, and helping foreign nations to sustain their own military). The question that hasn't been adequately addressed is why airline employment should be maintained at 100% of wage rates while 13 million people are unemployed with heavy concentration in restaurant, hotel, and retail (plus, counter-intuitively, health care and teaching). The essential national infrastructure argument is self-serving and arrogant. The industry could be a lot smaller and still serve national needs.
 
nine4nine
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Re: American to cut 19,000 jobs in October

Wed Sep 30, 2020 5:14 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
nine4nine wrote:
AEROFAN wrote:
No more taxpayers' money to airlines please. Thank you very much.



Are you ok with them giving billions to other countries in economic/foreign aid?

Or would you rather see us use our money for us? To prop up our business and enterprise here on home turf. Airlines are essential to the fabric of our society. Without them we will only be able to see, or afford to see relatives, business associates via zoom. Would you like to see hundreds of thousands of unemployed pilots, mechanics, FA’s and other airline employees jobless and fighting for a position against many others to be a cashier at the local WalMart? Then we lose Boeing, and our engineering and ingenuity in aerospace in the world, not to mention all of those jobs as well. The trickle down effect would be disasterous, and the only people who would be able to afford to fly would be the wealthy. Mind you the hordes of unemployed will be astronomical and any recovery to Pre covid levels would take decades.

Think about the consequence of your statement.


Many Americans share the sentiment - why spare airline employees when so many others are affected? Are hotels, conventions, and restaurants less important?



Who going to fill those hotel rooms especially, or restaurant tables without a solid base of travelers or tourists? I agree that the hospitality industry needs a financial shore up as well, and yes why should one be given cash flow and the other not. However the fault for some of this lies within state and local government. Hotels around Disneyland are shuttering for good because the governor of CA fails to initiate any guidelines For reopening that are working at various other parks across the country and world especially the sister property in Orlando. But airlines running at 1/4 size of pre Covid sure isn’t going to help that industry whatsoever. Hence the trickledown effect.
717, 727-100, 727-200, 732, 733, 734, 735, 73G, 738, 739, 742, 748, 752, 753, 762, 763, 772, 77W, 787-10, DC9, MD80/88/90, DC10, 319, 220-300, 320, 321, 321n, 332, 333, CS100, CRJ200, Q400, E175, E190, ERJ145, EMB120
 
Miamiairport
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Re: American to cut 19,000 jobs in October

Wed Sep 30, 2020 5:47 pm

Keeping flight crew with a paycheck doesn't necessarily help hotels. If the airline industry is operating at 50% capacity due to low demand paying pilots and flight attendants to sit at home or even send cash payments to airlines isn't going to fill those hotel rooms and put drivers in rental cars.

Until the US comes up with a sensible approach to the virus and thereby restart the economy air travel will suffer. Not everyone is sitting home because they are afraid to fly. Many sit home because they are unemployed or fear becoming unemployed. Companies begin to limit and restrict travel during hard economic times.
 
Silver1SWA
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Re: American to cut 19,000 jobs in October

Wed Sep 30, 2020 6:21 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
nine4nine wrote:
AEROFAN wrote:
No more taxpayers' money to airlines please. Thank you very much.



Are you ok with them giving billions to other countries in economic/foreign aid?

Or would you rather see us use our money for us? To prop up our business and enterprise here on home turf. Airlines are essential to the fabric of our society. Without them we will only be able to see, or afford to see relatives, business associates via zoom. Would you like to see hundreds of thousands of unemployed pilots, mechanics, FA’s and other airline employees jobless and fighting for a position against many others to be a cashier at the local WalMart? Then we lose Boeing, and our engineering and ingenuity in aerospace in the world, not to mention all of those jobs as well. The trickle down effect would be disasterous, and the only people who would be able to afford to fly would be the wealthy. Mind you the hordes of unemployed will be astronomical and any recovery to Pre covid levels would take decades.

Think about the consequence of your statement.


Many Americans share the sentiment - why spare airline employees when so many others are affected? Are hotels, conventions, and restaurants less important?


To keep the dominos from falling because once they do it will take much longer to recover which then delays the recovery of those other industries.

With the prospect of a vaccine early next year this could help bridge the gap.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
phxa340
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Re: American to cut 19,000 jobs in October

Wed Sep 30, 2020 7:56 pm

Silver1SWA wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
nine4nine wrote:


Are you ok with them giving billions to other countries in economic/foreign aid?

Or would you rather see us use our money for us? To prop up our business and enterprise here on home turf. Airlines are essential to the fabric of our society. Without them we will only be able to see, or afford to see relatives, business associates via zoom. Would you like to see hundreds of thousands of unemployed pilots, mechanics, FA’s and other airline employees jobless and fighting for a position against many others to be a cashier at the local WalMart? Then we lose Boeing, and our engineering and ingenuity in aerospace in the world, not to mention all of those jobs as well. The trickle down effect would be disasterous, and the only people who would be able to afford to fly would be the wealthy. Mind you the hordes of unemployed will be astronomical and any recovery to Pre covid levels would take decades.

Think about the consequence of your statement.


Many Americans share the sentiment - why spare airline employees when so many others are affected? Are hotels, conventions, and restaurants less important?


To keep the dominos from falling because once they do it will take much longer to recover which then delays the recovery of those other industries.

With the prospect of a vaccine early next year this could help bridge the gap.


Not going to happen, Sara tried very hard and it was a full court press but when other industries got wind that the airlines were succeeding in getting a second bailout, they applied a ton of pressure on congress of the unfairness of it all and are winning that argument. If Cares 2.0 happens, yes airline aid will probably happen but a standalone bill for the airline industry is DOA (it takes one senator to vote against it via unanimous consent - and there are over 7 on record that said it is a non-starter for them). Unfortunately I don't see the Dems and GOP reaching an agreement on price tag and liability protection. Its terrible to say but, time to downsize - just like tons of other industries. Hopefully the economy rebounds quickly and folks are recalled. Sending positive vibes and wishes and hoping for the best to anyone effected.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 2199
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: American to cut 19,000 jobs in October

Wed Sep 30, 2020 8:26 pm

phxa340 wrote:
Silver1SWA wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

Many Americans share the sentiment - why spare airline employees when so many others are affected? Are hotels, conventions, and restaurants less important?


To keep the dominos from falling because once they do it will take much longer to recover which then delays the recovery of those other industries.

With the prospect of a vaccine early next year this could help bridge the gap.


Not going to happen, Sara tried very hard and it was a full court press but when other industries got wind that the airlines were succeeding in getting a second bailout, they applied a ton of pressure on congress of the unfairness of it all and are winning that argument. If Cares 2.0 happens, yes airline aid will probably happen but a standalone bill for the airline industry is DOA (it takes one senator to vote against it via unanimous consent - and there are over 7 on record that said it is a non-starter for them). Unfortunately I don't see the Dems and GOP reaching an agreement on price tag and liability protection. Its terrible to say but, time to downsize - just like tons of other industries. Hopefully the economy rebounds quickly and folks are recalled. Sending positive vibes and wishes and hoping for the best to anyone effected.


Munchin already stated airline aid will not be a stand alone bill.
 
Happytycho
Posts: 4
Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2020 5:10 am

Re: American to cut 19,000 jobs in October

Wed Sep 30, 2020 9:17 pm

The world has been changed by Covid-19. There is little sense in holding onto the dream that one day everything will suddenly be back to the way it was before. Airlines have had six months to prepare for operating in a reduced demand environment by retiring planes, reducing schedules, and readying furloughs. Any further government support would be merely a jobs program for those to be furloughed - the survival of airlines is no longer the primary issue.

Unfortunately for those impacted, I don't see paying excess airline staff as a great use of federal funds when compared to things like infrastructure and healthcare. I'm fine with the government paying to create jobs in a down economy, but I'd at least like to get something like new roads or bridges or airports or high speed rail out of it. Paying pilots and flight attendants to sit at home or fly around empty planes just doesn't feel like a very good return for taxpayer dollars.
 
UpNAWAy
Posts: 689
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2016 12:42 pm

Re: American to cut 19,000 jobs in October

Wed Sep 30, 2020 9:19 pm

32andBelow wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
"American Airlines CEO leaves door open to delaying Oct 1 furloughs:"

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-heal ... ce=twitter

Well there is airline money in the house bill. After last nights performance I wouldn’t be surprised for trump to start supporting another stimulus.



Trump has been behind it from the beginning. He is not the hold up, its Congress and Primarily Nancy Pelosi.
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 27249
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

Re: American to cut 19,000 jobs in October

Wed Sep 30, 2020 9:26 pm

UpNAWAy wrote:
Trump has been behind it from the beginning. He is not the hold up, its Congress and Primarily Nancy Pelosi.


The House has been pushing for it - both Democrat and Republican.

It's the Republicans in the Senate under McConnell that have been holding it up.
 
chonetsao
Posts: 679
Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2005 3:55 pm

Re: American to cut 19,000 jobs in October

Wed Sep 30, 2020 9:31 pm

Stitch wrote:
UpNAWAy wrote:
Trump has been behind it from the beginning. He is not the hold up, its Congress and Primarily Nancy Pelosi.


The House has been pushing for it - both Democrat and Republican.

It's the Republicans in the Senate under McConnell that have been holding it up.


Could you provide a source of your claim rather than MSNBC or CNN?
 
Nicknuzzii
Posts: 1251
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:57 pm

Re: American to cut 19,000 jobs in October

Wed Sep 30, 2020 9:52 pm

chonetsao wrote:
Stitch wrote:
UpNAWAy wrote:
Trump has been behind it from the beginning. He is not the hold up, its Congress and Primarily Nancy Pelosi.


The House has been pushing for it - both Democrat and Republican.

It's the Republicans in the Senate under McConnell that have been holding it up.


Could you provide a source of your claim rather than MSNBC or CNN?


I don’t have a source at the moment but the poster is correct.

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