Pan Am coming back ... yet again..

klm617 · Wed Sep 16, 2020 7:27 pm

WesternDC6B wrote:
jetblueguy22 wrote:
Just let the name die. The “glory days” are over

I’m old enough to remember “grownups” who flew on PanAm in the 50s, and later on, friends and other contemporaries who flew PanAm from the 60s up til they died.

PanAm killed itself. I think you will find that many who sing its praises never actually flew them, or, if they did, it was in first class. Anywhere else on the plane, the impression was “you’re a nuisance”, or “What are YOU doing on OUR airplane?”.Cabins were often shabby or dirty.

When PanAm could no longer buy enough politicians to keep their monopoly, the competeition tore them to pieces.

Not true I flew Pan Am several times in coach and never got this impression.

sunking737 · Wed Sep 16, 2020 7:29 pm

After all these years, I don't think any name is owned. Logos maybe a different story.

FSDan · Wed Sep 16, 2020 8:13 pm

fraspotter wrote:
It's Baltia all over again. Except this time it's not a 742 flying from JFK to Latvia!

I was about to suggest that they could form a codeshare partnership with Baltia - I'm sure that would print money... :lol:

adambrau · Wed Sep 16, 2020 8:17 pm

sunking737 wrote:
After all these years, I don't think any name is owned. Logos maybe a different story.

http://www.panamrailways.com/panamrailwayscom-legal

Devilfish · Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:12 pm

smithbs wrote:
Well, it seems unlikely but 2020 plays by different rules. Filling up a 744M with cargo shouldn't be too hard, and it takes pressure off filling the pax side.

They should scrounge in the desert for an intact 747SP frame, repaint it with the old livery and use that on their promo materials so their capacity assumptions would look in the ballpark at least..... :biggrin:

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/8f/f8/d4 ... cf758d.jpg

They may have an easier time hoodwinking potential investors and HQ providers that way. :lol:

AMP44 · Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:52 pm

Graphic designers were extremely lazy. The logo is from an app (but the app has a new logo now):

FCOTSTW · Thu Sep 17, 2020 12:32 am

What would be this, the fourth or the fifth Pan Am? Sombody with a better tally, please help me!

N649DL · Thu Sep 17, 2020 1:22 am

What's with the green? They couldn't get rights to the iconic blue? Interesting idea nonetheless (should it be true.)

crownvic · Thu Sep 17, 2020 2:47 am

ScottB wrote:
sjones1975 wrote:
Which hobbyist website (err, I mean 'airline') gets off the ground first: Pan Am Global or Avatar Airlines (https://avatarairlines.com/)?

I was thinking they should just call it Pan Avatar once the lawsuit from Pan Am Systems is filed.

WesternDC6B wrote:
Being a Californian, my brain skips a groove and hears “flying with Pacific Southwest Airways Airlines!”.

Your brain is a bit rusty them; it'd be Pacific Southwest Airlines Airlines.

crownvic wrote:
Does anyone know if company in New Hampshire perhaps sold the name?

Massachusetts. HQ is in Billerica (bonus points if you know how to pronounce that).

crownvic wrote:
not operating as an actual airline now for many years, could put the current owners of the name at risk of keeping it. You cannot "squat" on a branded name and fail to do anything with it, for what it's intention is indefinitely.

They (Pan Am) don't have to operate as an airline. They're in the broader sector of transportation; that precludes whatever this is from using the mark for an airline.

Pan Am Brands and Pan Am Services are hq'ed in New Hampshire.

26point2 · Thu Sep 17, 2020 3:46 am

Devilfish wrote:
smithbs wrote:
Well, it seems unlikely but 2020 plays by different rules. Filling up a 744M with cargo shouldn't be too hard, and it takes pressure off filling the pax side.

They should scrounge in the desert for an intact 747SP frame, repaint it with the old livery and use that on their promo materials so their capacity assumptions would look in the ballpark at least.....

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/8f/f8/d4 ... cf758d.jpg

They may have an easier time hoodwinking potential investors and HQ providers that way.

Sorry if off topic but the pic shows N747SPA? This N # is not possible. Is the pic for real or a photo shop effort?

OB1504 · Thu Sep 17, 2020 4:06 am

Assuming this is real, why use the name but none of the original branding elements? At that point why bother naming yourself after an airline that went out of business 30 years ago and had been dying a slow death long before that? The new Eastern 3.0 is equally perplexing.

26point2 wrote:
Devilfish wrote:
smithbs wrote:
Well, it seems unlikely but 2020 plays by different rules. Filling up a 744M with cargo shouldn't be too hard, and it takes pressure off filling the pax side.

They should scrounge in the desert for an intact 747SP frame, repaint it with the old livery and use that on their promo materials so their capacity assumptions would look in the ballpark at least.....

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/8f/f8/d4 ... cf758d.jpg

They may have an easier time hoodwinking potential investors and HQ providers that way.

Sorry if off topic but the pic shows N747SPA? This N # is not possible. Is the pic for real or a photo shop effort?

It’s a Photoshop. I wonder why it was necessary when Pan Am actually had 747SPs in the billboard livery.

Brystar45 wrote:
Awesome! Pan Am is coming back! How cool is this finally its an Airline again just like the good old days.

Who says that people cannot start an airline, Of course you can there is prosperity and hope in times of trouble and need of hope.

I for one am excited to see and that there opening up offices in Miami makes it even better as a person who lives in South Florida and sees it as a beacon of hope and future for Aviation/ Aeronautics.

I have heard of the Pan Am Railways up in the northeast of the USA And they said it was on sale but hmm? Wonder what will happen to Pan Am Railways?

I hope they are hiring because this would be wonders for me since I live in South Florida, hopefully once I finish my FAA training I hope so.

It’s not going to be anything like the good old days, much less so if they’re flying a 747 combi out of Ecuador. The industry has changed substantially in the past 30 years; if Pan Am as it existed back then couldn’t survive, it definitely won’t be able to this time.

People are generally weary of attempts to revive dead airlines, especially given that they almost always end in failure. People are more optimistic when the founders of a new airline have a solid background and business plan, like David Neelman and his new startup Breeze. Typically the people who know what they’re doing know that there’s little point in reviving an old name.

Metjetceo · Thu Sep 17, 2020 10:51 am

So, as a guy that started a 380 with stock there is a HUGE issue that will / could land them in jail. There are several type of Regulation D offerings (504s and 506s). 504s dont let you raise more than $1M in 12 months (the reason mine shut down) as cash flow as tight...but you can sell to anyone. 506s let you raise more (unlimited) but there are some guidelines. To advertise the shares you must sell 506c but only to accredited investors. As shares can only be sold to accredited investors they are not transferable...which means you cant issue a stock certificate as that shows transferable ownership of the shares. Issuing certs on non transferable shares alone is a pretty big violation which will eat you before you even get to the DOT and FAA.

However, also as someone that started an operation and got eaten alive on here...I wish anyone taking the step good luck. I do wish people would stop resurrections from the dead...that I agree with.

Metjetceo · Thu Sep 17, 2020 12:00 pm

sjones1975 wrote:
Boeing757100 wrote:
This reminds me of Avatar Airlines, who wanted to buy 30 747-8is from Boeing.

Looks like the Department of Transportation dismissed Avatar's application for an air transportation certificate back in September 2017 on the basis of lack of documentation:

https://downloads.regulations.gov/DOT-O ... ment_1.pdf

They won't be flying anytime soon (or ever).

I know for a fact that Avatar is still actively meeting with airports and they are still selling shares of stock.

KlimaBXsst · Thu Sep 17, 2020 3:21 pm

People need to get their knickers out of their twists with this one.

Never have seen such an uproar. The airliner community understands this is not and in no way related to the authentic original Pan Am.

We do know the supposed savvy news media has proven time and time again they absolutely do not value researching and documenting truth for the public unless it serves a particular agenda of some sort.

Fortunately the airliners community is still here to keep this abomination somewhat clear when we are permitted to do so without the interference of agenda driven oversight.

Congratulations to a new Pan Am.

brilondon · Thu Sep 17, 2020 3:25 pm

26point2 wrote:
Devilfish wrote:
smithbs wrote:
Well, it seems unlikely but 2020 plays by different rules. Filling up a 744M with cargo shouldn't be too hard, and it takes pressure off filling the pax side.

They should scrounge in the desert for an intact 747SP frame, repaint it with the old livery and use that on their promo materials so their capacity assumptions would look in the ballpark at least.....

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/8f/f8/d4 ... cf758d.jpg

They may have an easier time hoodwinking potential investors and HQ providers that way.

Sorry if off topic but the pic shows N747SPA? This N # is not possible. Is the pic for real or a photo shop effort?

This looks photo shipped. I am unaware of any 747SP in that paint scheme.

Devilfish · Thu Sep 17, 2020 3:41 pm

26point2 wrote:
Sorry if off topic but the pic shows N747SPA? This N # is not possible. Is the pic for real or a photo shop effort?

Your sharp eyes missed the more obvious differences...reversed flag on the tailfin, meatball logo on the engines and the frame name on the nose. It should be made clear however that the image was from the web and not my handiwork. :cheerful:

OB1504 wrote:
It’s a Photoshop. I wonder why it was necessary when Pan Am actually had 747SPs in the billboard livery.

Just driving home a point...doubtful a PanAm SP can be found in a presentable enough condition -- might even have to clobber together sections from different frames. As you said.....

OB1504 wrote:
Assuming this is real, why use the name but none of the original branding elements?

The keyword is in the last sentence. Also, the aircraft name alludes to their quest for a base in S.A. ...though it's not actually among their preferred countries.

sjones1975 · Thu Sep 17, 2020 4:21 pm

Devilfish wrote:
26point2 wrote:
Sorry if off topic but the pic shows N747SPA? This N # is not possible. Is the pic for real or a photo shop effort?

Your sharp eyes missed the more obvious differences...reversed flag on the tailfin, meatball logo on the engines and the frame name on the nose.

Also, notice the Ford Transit Connect vehicle in the background, under the tail. The version of that vehicle looks fairly recent, no earlier than 2005 or so. Pan Am last flew the 747SP in 1986, so based on presence of the Ford Transit Connect, you can tell it's a photoshopped image.

readytotaxi · Thu Sep 17, 2020 4:48 pm

atcsundevil wrote:
Has anyone seen The Producers?

Maybe this is like that. Get rich through failure.

The Producers, my favorite comedy of ALL time, get enough little old ladies to back you and anything is possible.
"Spring time for Hitler and Germany" :rotfl:

scbriml · Thu Sep 17, 2020 4:53 pm

It's not Pan Am coming back. It's never coming back, just like the 757.

strfyr51 · Thu Sep 17, 2020 5:58 pm

klm617 wrote:
WesternDC6B wrote:
jetblueguy22 wrote:
Just let the name die. The “glory days” are over

I’m old enough to remember “grownups” who flew on PanAm in the 50s, and later on, friends and other contemporaries who flew PanAm from the 60s up til they died.

PanAm killed itself. I think you will find that many who sing its praises never actually flew them, or, if they did, it was in first class. Anywhere else on the plane, the impression was “you’re a nuisance”, or “What are YOU doing on OUR airplane?”.Cabins were often shabby or dirty.

When PanAm could no longer buy enough politicians to keep their monopoly, the competeition tore them to pieces.

Not true I flew Pan Am several times in coach and never got this impression.

I was at United when they got a bunch of Pan AM airplanes when they bought the Pacific division from Pan AM. the 747SP's were pretty worn out and Tired and had to be overhauled. The L1011-500's were really tired and had to be overhauled by HAECO in Hong Kong. at one point we had nearly every leased RB211-522 in the world.
We got 2 747-221's that when delivered to SFO were again moved to the Desert as they were in such bad shape. So My opinion of Pan AM? is mayby not all that hot.
they were already going down the Drain by that time and their value was in their People and not in their Management. The few guys I met who came form Pan AM were knowledgeable and pretty damn sharp. Their Flight and cabin Crews were extremely proficient. It took them a little time to see what we were about. But when they called Maintenance? They got Maintenance and whatever we could do? We did! As they got used to US? We got used to them. Many of the L1011 crews I later saw them on the DC10's and 767's.

smokeybandit · Thu Sep 17, 2020 7:01 pm

Some places on that site they're "Pan Am". Others is "PanAm". Yet others is "Pan Am Global"

Their facebook page is friends with Gene Tatum, who is probably the "DG Tatum" listed as the president on the site. Some interesting Google hits for that name.

xdlx · Thu Sep 17, 2020 7:49 pm

The only chance they have to make this a go.... buy the Sands 2 747SP and fly RTW trips east and westbound.

sjones1975 · Thu Sep 17, 2020 8:13 pm

strfyr51 wrote:
I was at United when they got a bunch of Pan AM airplanes when they bought the Pacific division from Pan AM. the 747SP's were pretty worn out and Tired and had to be overhauled. The L1011-500's were really tired and had to be overhauled by HAECO in Hong Kong. at one point we had nearly every leased RB211-522 in the world.

The New York Times even wrote about this in 1987. (The Times usually doesn't even cover this sort of aviation minutiae.) The article states:

"United had allocated $20 million to bring the aircraft up to its standards, but months-long refurbishment ultimately cost more than $60 million.
All 18 engines of the L-1011's had to be rebuilt. Crews called in to replace carpeting often found that they had to rebuild the whole floor of the aircraft."

https://www.nytimes.com/1987/02/17/busi ... cific.html

GlobalAirways · Thu Sep 17, 2020 8:24 pm

vhtje wrote:
Apparently their business class is identical to BA’s 787 First product. Even down to the entertainment system!

I know right and "the offices are currently closed due to COVID-19" :rotfl:

Nonrevhell · Thu Sep 17, 2020 10:21 pm

Just what we need, another fly by night group necroing a once proud name.

They just need to stop.

jayawarda · Fri Sep 18, 2020 3:56 am

Nonrevhell wrote:
Just what we need, another fly by night group necroing a once proud name.

They just need to stop.

Thumb up!

Can't understand taking this nostalgia stuff too seriously - nostalgia may be good for bonding through collective fantasizing, good for reminiscing a previous era, good for comparison versus today (yes, i find flying miserable and undignified today).

But dead = forever.

Unless you can resurrect swashbuckling Juan Trippe too, along with seat-side chateaubriand carving and smoking (sold in duty-free cartons) in your seat, while flirting with miniskirt stewardess because you chose "me" in the "coffee, tea, or me" selection, without ever having to worry to face up to #hashtagmobs.

Wanna see any new Pan Am recreate all that. Will be even more awed if they can get away with it.

Otherwise, as per quote - another hollow scam.

ramsesp · Fri Sep 18, 2020 10:53 am

On a second thought it sounds not so absurd as it did at first reading. There are a few retired KLM-747-Combis sitting around and I'm quite sure they are unbelievable cheap.
Between UIO and much more GYE and the US you have a serious amount of pax and freight demand (remember the announcement of JFK-GYE of JetBlue before Covid-19)

Phosphorus · Fri Sep 18, 2020 11:09 am

ramsesp wrote:
On a second thought it sounds not so absurd as it did at first reading. There are a few retired KLM-747-Combis sitting around and I'm quite sure they are unbelievable cheap.
Between UIO and much more GYE and the US you have a serious amount of pax and freight demand (remember the announcement of JFK-GYE of JetBlue before Covid-19)

Aren't these 747-Combis being actively harvested for engines? I mean, you could probably lay your hands on an inexpensive frame alright, but you'd have to tap the market for engines again.

FlyingHonu001 · Fri Sep 18, 2020 12:48 pm

Phosphorus wrote:
ramsesp wrote:
On a second thought it sounds not so absurd as it did at first reading. There are a few retired KLM-747-Combis sitting around and I'm quite sure they are unbelievable cheap.
Between UIO and much more GYE and the US you have a serious amount of pax and freight demand (remember the announcement of JFK-GYE of JetBlue before Covid-19)

Aren't these 747-Combis being actively harvested for engines? I mean, you could probably lay your hands on an inexpensive frame alright, but you'd have to tap the market for engines again.

KL 744's are usually dismantled as soon as they are retired because of its reusable parts. They also have a good quality maintenance record, so they are in high demand. If they really want to use an 74E airframe again, you have shop around for many more parts than only its engines...

gdavis003 · Fri Sep 18, 2020 1:45 pm

I think people are being gullible. Look how bad the website is. That is definitely not legit. Definitely looks like a scam

PartsGuy20 · Fri Sep 18, 2020 5:01 pm

LAXintl wrote:
Per press release received:

The iconic airline has opened temporary offices in Miami, Florida as they negotiate for a South American home...

Aren't Pan Am's offices always temporary, no matter where they are? :rotfl:

Devilfish · Fri Sep 18, 2020 6:47 pm

sjones1975 wrote:
Also, notice the Ford Transit Connect vehicle in the background, under the tail.

Actually, I was more interested about the floodlight towers in the background and which airport that was :confused:

Looks like a ball field to me if not for the taxiway markers in the foreground.

xdlx wrote:
The only chance they have to make this a go.... buy the Sands 2 747SP and fly RTW trips east and westbound.

Could they afford both...doubtful if the pair are still in a standard pax configuration? Those -SPs probably earn Sands oodles of money shuttling high rollers from around the world in style. :spin:

OB1504 · Fri Sep 18, 2020 7:27 pm

Actual Pan Am 747SP for reference:

ramsesp wrote:
On a second thought it sounds not so absurd as it did at first reading. There are a few retired KLM-747-Combis sitting around and I'm quite sure they are unbelievable cheap.
Between UIO and much more GYE and the US you have a serious amount of pax and freight demand (remember the announcement of JFK-GYE of JetBlue before Covid-19)

Ironically US–Ecuador is one of the markets the new Eastern 3.0 has just started serving.

FiscAutTecGarte · Fri Sep 18, 2020 7:50 pm

atcsundevil wrote:
Has anyone seen The Producers?

Maybe this is like that. Get rich through failure.

This! It happens every day. If only I didn't have a conscience! :mrgreen:

Devilfish · Fri Sep 18, 2020 9:17 pm

OB1504 wrote:
Actual Pan Am 747SP for reference:

Very nice. Please note the silver belly, engines and absence of a name on the nose. Imagine people's surprise when the same registration reappeared on a Jetstream 31.

"Honey, I shrank the -SP" :!:

drdisque · Fri Sep 18, 2020 9:42 pm

FCOTSTW wrote:
What would be this, the fourth or the fifth Pan Am? Sombody with a better tally, please help me!

Pan Am I: the original
Pan Am II: The airline that flew A300's and 737-400's for awhile on the east coast in the 90s
Pan Am III: The Airline that flew charter 727's in the late 90s and early 2000's
Pan Am IV aka Pan Am Clipper Connection: Flew the same 727's as Pan Am III and also flew some Jetstream 31's.

So this would be the fifth if it is an actual real thing.

Devilfish · Fri Sep 18, 2020 11:36 pm

strfyr51 wrote:
The L1011-500's were really tired and had to be overhauled by HAECO in Hong Kong. at one point we had nearly every leased RB211-522 in the world.

sjones1975 wrote:
The New York Times even wrote about this in 1987. (The Times usually doesn't even cover this sort of aviation minutiae.)

An excuse to post photos of Pan Am's bigger trijets...one of which was captured here with the iconic Concorde..... :bigthumbsup:

EA CO AS · Sat Sep 19, 2020 12:23 am

You can use the branding under license, for a fee....

https://www.panambrands.com/

PANAMsterdam · Sat Sep 19, 2020 8:04 am

As my username suggests i'm a fan of the original PanAm. But please, PanAm died in 1991 and frankly was in the process of dying many years prior.

The only viable option to see PanAm 'back' is to buy Delta and rename it to PanAm. But since the likelihood of that is slimmer than me being able to sing a song without breaking the windows I think it's safe to say that it will never happen.

Let the past the past and stop destroying the REAL PanAm legacy with some stupid fake ripoffs.

Luftymatt · Wed Sep 23, 2020 2:22 pm

They pick their times don't they? :roll:

incitatus · Wed Sep 23, 2020 2:58 pm

WesternDC6B wrote:
(…)

PanAm killed itself. I think you will find that many who sing its praises never actually flew them, or, if they did, it was in first class. Anywhere else on the plane, the impression was “you’re a nuisance”, or “What are YOU doing on OUR airplane?”.Cabins were often shabby or dirty.

When PanAm could no longer buy enough politicians to keep their monopoly, the competeition tore them to pieces.

Competition tore them to pieces doing what Pan Am did: Lobbying politicians. By the time Pan Am's service was bad, the competition had already won the game in Congress.

highflier92660 · Wed Sep 23, 2020 3:48 pm

If anyone is going to indulge themselves in this wonderful retro, time travel craziness, why not go all the way? Get a relatively low-cycle Boeing 747 in good shape from the desert boneyard, dress it up in full 70s or 80s Pan Am colors, and crew it with employees in uniforms of the period. I'm sure there are many nostalgia fans eager to relive the days of The World's Most Experienced Airline when champagne and chateaubriand were the norm.
https://www.panamexperience.com

32andBelow · Wed Sep 23, 2020 3:51 pm

highflier92660 wrote:
If anyone is going to indulge themselves in this wonderful retro, time travel craziness, why not go all the way? Get a relatively low-cycle Boeing 747 in good shape from the desert boneyard, dress it up in full 70s or 80s Pan Am colors, and crew it with employees in uniforms of the period. I'm sure there are many nostalgia fans eager to relive the days of The World's Most Experienced Airline when champagne and chateaubriand were the norm.
https://www.panamexperience.com

Why do that. Go get a low time Boeing flying boat and do 4 day trips across the pacific

eastwood6 · Wed Sep 23, 2020 5:44 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
You can use the branding under license, for a fee....

https://www.panambrands.com/

The New England railfan community was all atwitter when parent Pan Am Railways recently repainted a locomotive in the predecessor Guilford Rail Systems scheme instead of the newer PAR colors. Possibly licensing the Pan Am name to this new airline outfit is prompting the railroad to revert to the old name and livery? The railroad is for sale, so highly likely it will become part of CSX or Norfolk Southern and cease to exist anyway.

Video of engine in new GRS paint: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pWA32cWlcE

SkyVoice · Thu Sep 24, 2020 5:38 am

readytotaxi wrote:
The Producers, my favorite comedy of ALL time, get enough little old ladies to back you and anything is possible.
"Spring time for Hitler and Germany"

"Did you bring checkie?"

stl07 · Thu Sep 24, 2020 6:21 am

This is almost as hilarious as the TWA branded AA plane I saw in PHX.

flyingturtle · Thu Sep 24, 2020 7:02 am

N717TW wrote:
I wonder if Pan Am Systems, the railroad up in New England that owns the name and trademark, knows?

AFAIK a trademark has to be used publicly so its protection doesn't get voided after a time limit. So it's rented out to that railroad.

The same with Swissair. There is a little flying club in Switzerland called "Swissair", with the Swissair logo, that commercially offers round trips on a Piper Archer.

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