Let's say this is non-LR NEO configured with 160 seats. What is its realistic range vs LR? I'm assuming it can do LAX-HNL. Can it do BOS/JFK-DUB?

tphuang wrote:

Let's say this is non-LR NEO configured with 160 seats. What is its realistic range vs LR? I'm assuming it can do LAX-HNL. Can it do BOS/JFK-DUB?

LAX-HNL should be fine. BOS-DUB would probably work, but might get iffy going westbound in the winter with strong winds and weather in BOS.

tphuang wrote:

Let's say this is non-LR NEO configured with 160 seats. What is its realistic range vs LR? I'm assuming it can do LAX-HNL. Can it do BOS/JFK-DUB?

Good question.

Here’s my assessment. JetBlue was told by the FAA that the existing 200 seat NEOs cannot be used for ETOPS certification. I don’t know the specifics, but I do know that generally airlines order aircraft as ETOPS from the manufacturer. I also know that jetblue intends on flying to hawaii with mint at some point. Flying an LR to hawaii would be a waste of an LR, and I don’t see that happening. So...it therefore makes sense that JetBlue would fly non-LR, ETOPS mint NEOs to hawaii at some point. It would also make sense that JetBlue would want to get ETOPS certification before their LRs start showing up, so they can launch LON when they want, without ETOPS issues holding them back. And if they could get some of their mint NEOs ETOPS (and the program in general) certified this fall/winter, it makes sense that this is a regular mint NEO, but one that will be used to seek ETOPS certification. HNL, DUB, who knows. The destination isn’t important at this time. The certification and future capability is. Or maybe they were able to convert this to an LR sooner since ETOPS was becoming an issue with the requirement of an ETOPS plane to do the proving runs.

But to your question, BOS-DUB capability would be cool. Or more LAX expansion to HNL if their governor ever opens the state up. With as light as the loads are, I wouldn’t be surprised if DUB was doable with this mint non-LR NEO (if that’s what it ends up being). On the pilot side, the Europe/LR sub crew base bid (and a220 bid) opens in the next 6 weeks allegedly. Maybe that’s for the spring/summer when the LRs get here...or....?

ETOPS 180 is necessary for Hawaii. Jetblue will not receive ETOPS 180 immediately. First 120 then 180.

I think Seattle-Tokyo is less than 7,500nmi, so is Asia an option?

Boeing757100 wrote:

I think Seattle-Tokyo is less than 7,500nmi, so is Asia an option?

I think it's safe to say Asia is off the radar for B6 at the current time. They're focused on Europe first, and probably deep South America after that if Europe is a success.

FSDan wrote:

Boeing757100 wrote:

I think Seattle-Tokyo is less than 7,500nmi, so is Asia an option?

I think it's safe to say Asia is off the radar for B6 at the current time. They're focused on Europe first, and probably deep South America after that if Europe is a success.

Can a 4200nm plane safely fly SEA-HND?
No.

With all the birds, I wouldn't want to land at Midway...

Lightsaber

This frame (MSN 10101) is not an -LR variant, but is indeed a low-density 321 with Mint.

I don’t claim any expertise in ETOPS, but a quick scan of the regs indicates that the certification is sought, and granted with a geographical reference (North Pacific, North Atlantic). I’m not sure if both could be sought simultaneously, but it seems that the certification is not a blanket authorization to conduct ETOPS. I would assume city pairs would also be identified for diversion planning. I’m sure there are plenty of experts here who can explain the operational side of things. As to getting 120, versus 180 minute certification, I couldn’t find anything that limits an operator to 120 minute ETOPS as a first step. If an operator chose to start with Hawaii service only, that would seem to be an unrealistic limitation.

LesQuatreGats wrote:

ETOPS 180 is necessary for Hawaii. Jetblue will not receive ETOPS 180 immediately. First 120 then 180.

I may be misremembering, but I don’t think WN ever had 120. They went straight from no ETOPS to 180.

Clever tail design! I like it. But I like the inclusion of a second color other than blue. The Barcode with the rust and Prism with the green comes to mind.

No mask though?

The longest flight they operate with 200 seat A321NEO is JFK-GYE which has a range of 2970 miles but it doesn't have to deal with northatlantic wind. From what others have said, they have some restrictions in # of luggages due to operating at edge of capability.

If each person is 120 KG of extra payload (75 KG per person + 45 KG luggage), 40 fewer people would be close to 5t lighter. the business class seating will be heavier than y seating, so maybe 4t lighter overall? Keep in mind, VFR flights are heavy on luggage, so unlikely to have less payload per passenger than TATL or HI flight.

Would that be 500 nm extra in range? For TATL flight, I've heard that we need to take off 500 nm to account ofr Northatlantic wind. So, le'ts say TATL flight will have 3000 mile in range, Hawaiian flights will have 3200 mile in range and north south stuff will have 3600 mile in range.

3000 miles from BOS
http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=BOS-DUB&R= ... =wls&DU=mi
That will allow them to barely do DUB, SNN and comfortably do KEF

3000 miles from JFK
http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=JFK-DUB%3B ... =wls&DU=mi
DUB would be out of range, but they could try PDL and KEF.

3200 miles from LAX
http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=LAX-LIH%3B ... =wls&DU=mi
HI will be comfotably within range, but doesn't really bring anything into range.

3600 miles from FLL
http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=FLL-GRU%3B ... =wls&DU=mi
it might be possible for them to do BSB, but nothing else really.

So it seems to be even with a 160 seat lighter configuration of A321NEO, they'd be range limited to try a lot of stuff outside of LAX-HI and BOS-DUB.

I believe the reason so few flights seem to work is because the mapper is in Statute Miles whereas it should be in Nautical Miles.

JoseSalazar wrote:

SoCalFlyer wrote:

It’s not the LR. It’s a regular MINT aircraft but the first one a NEO. They just said so on our intranet. It will join the other MINT routes this fall.

I thought that when I read it too. But, the announcement just said NEO. An LR is still a NEO. They didn’t say it wasn’t an LR. AIB showing it’s an LR. Someone on another forum said it was the LR that will be used for ETOPS proving runs. Guess we will see.

IF the airplane is going to Europe? JBLU might well have to cut their teeth in doing Hawaii turns to gain ETOPS experience anyway. So? It may be a safe bet that it's an LR whether it was said or not. I know enough former B6 guys who now work at United to surmise the LR was the next move in their Airbus fleet. United also has A321's on order and what they intend for them is LR operations with Hawaii and Europe in mind. There are North Atlantic alternates available but then again? that might put the track well north for LHR or CDG. But for Hawaii? there is no alternate track unless you're going via Anchorage and flying due south to Hawaii so unless Anchorage is where they WANT to go? That's about as out of the Way as you can get! so SFO/ LAX-HNL/OGG/LIH might well be it. and if they go there? they can add destinations like GUM and ease into Japan if they want to. (I don't know that they would, But they actually could if they chose to)

tphuang wrote:

The longest flight they operate with 200 seat A321NEO is JFK-GYE which has a range of 2970 miles but it doesn't have to deal with northatlantic wind. From what others have said, they have some restrictions in # of luggages due to operating at edge of capability.

...

So it seems to be even with a 160 seat lighter configuration of A321NEO, they'd be range limited to try a lot of stuff outside of LAX-HI and BOS-DUB.

Primera (PF) operated standard A321neos seating 198 (split of 16PE and 182Y) between STN/BHX/CDG and BOS/EWR/IAD/YYZ for a hot minute in 2018, with IAD-CDG being the longest with a length of 3355nm and a block time of 7h30m.

To be fair, they were probably even more restrictive when it came to baggage where the target Y market knew to only bring a single carry-on to avoid the fees if we're comparing the overall weight and ranges. PF and their TATL ops also never made it to winter, although they were also due to receive the first LR by then which was taken up by Arkia (IZ) instead.

SantaBarbara wrote:

I believe the reason so few flights seem to work is because the mapper is in Statute Miles whereas it should be in Nautical Miles.

The "Dist+Time" tab under the map controls can be set to nautical mile units if desired, but the distance comparisons from route to route doesn't change.

Cue in the Jaws theme.

Helpless victims playing in the water: legacy Atlantic divisions.

(If an LR, that is. Otherwise just Seattle salmon)

airbazar wrote:

MIflyer12 wrote:

SurfandSnow wrote:

If anything, when B6 does begin flying to Europe it can take advantage of the pent-up demand for transatlantic travel.

There's no pent-up demand. There is destroyed demand. Don't expect a blip above long-term trend. Expect years to return to 2019 levels.

There is a lot of pentup demand NOW. All that's keeping people from traveling are the travel bans. As soon as the travel bans are lifted you will see a v-shaped recovery in travel as steep as the one we saw in the stock market.
I guess 2 years is plural but that's about as far as this will last, IMO. Especially from BOS.
On a related note, this crisis will actually play in favor of B6. Slots at both LHR and AMS are likely to become available and quite possibly at reduced prices.

Well, no, the government travel bans aren't all that's preventing travel. A lot of companies have business travel bans that are much stricter than government bans. For example, my company has a near-blanket ban on even domestic flying. That depresses business travel and hasn't loosened despite no government impediment to doing so. Leisure demand is going to be suppressed because the unemployment rate is still over 8%, and who knows where that will go if there's no further stimulus. Plus, there's no indication that European countries are going to be lifting travel bans on the US any time soon, so it almost doesn't matter. There's not going to be sustainable demand at 2019 levels for quite some time.

And saying "2 years" is pretty far from a v-shaped, stock market-like recovery. That time horizon is along the lines of the traffic recovery from the 2008 recession, which caused a much less severe drop in traffic. A 2-year recovery to get back to prior traffic numbers threatens the survival of most major airlines.

Everyone seems to think its the new Mint TATL aircraft, but Im pretty sure it's just a standard regular Mint configuration. I wonder which Core seats they installed, hopefully the Meridian seats and Avant system. Its amazing that soon JB will have 6 different configurations for the A321 (Core ceo, Mint ceo, Core neo, Mint neo, Mint neoLR, Mint neoXLR).

StinkyPinky wrote:

Everyone seems to think its the new Mint TATL aircraft, but Im pretty sure it's just a standard regular Mint configuration. I wonder which Core seats they installed, hopefully the Meridian seats and Avant system. Its amazing that soon JB will have 6 different configurations for the A321 (Core ceo, Mint ceo, Core neo, Mint neo, Mint neoLR, Mint neoXLR).

It won’t be the same seats as the mint 1.0 layout. I would expect the mint 2.0 seats (same as will be on the LR, but fewer of them), avant, viasat2, and meridian seats in the back.

Doesn't make a lot of sense to me for them to install the same seats as mint 1.0. I would guess all aisle access in the new J section. Going out a limb and say they put 10 rows of that in the mint section and 23 and half rows in core cabin for a total of 20J + 140Y = 160 seats. They can then put this on JFK-LAX where there are the greatest demand for the larger J cabin.

Interesting enough, all aisle access mains they don't lose any seat to social distancing.

I'm surprised that B6 is plugging R3/L3, because if the adventure doesn't work out, not having the door plugged could have them just converted back to standard A321neos (the 200-seat frames have all exits activated). TP with its A321LRs kept R3/L3 active but deleted one of the overwing exits.

BTW, one can plug R3?L3 with 195 seats or less. The non-Mint B6 A21Ns have 200 seats.

aemoreira1981 wrote:

I'm surprised that B6 is plugging R3/L3, because if the adventure doesn't work out, not having the door plugged could have them just converted back to standard A321neos (the 200-seat frames have all exits activated). TP with its A321LRs kept R3/L3 active but deleted one of the overwing exits.

BTW, one can plug R3?L3 with 195 seats or less. The non-Mint B6 A21Ns have 200 seats.

Meh, the 159 seat mint a321CEOs aren't going anywhere and did just fine--they wouldn't need L3/R3 if they were ACF NEOs. If the A321LR's don't work out, they can just fly domestic mint flights and be just fine as they are. They wouldn't need to be converted to 200 seaters.

aemoreira1981 wrote:

I'm surprised that B6 is plugging R3/L3, because if the adventure doesn't work out, not having the door plugged could have them just converted back to standard A321neos (the 200-seat frames have all exits activated). TP with its A321LRs kept R3/L3 active but deleted one of the overwing exits.

BTW, one can plug R3?L3 with 195 seats or less. The non-Mint B6 A21Ns have 200 seats.

Is that L3/R3 plug permanent? Or can it be reverted back to a fully functional door?

WayexTDI wrote:

aemoreira1981 wrote:

I'm surprised that B6 is plugging R3/L3, because if the adventure doesn't work out, not having the door plugged could have them just converted back to standard A321neos (the 200-seat frames have all exits activated). TP with its A321LRs kept R3/L3 active but deleted one of the overwing exits.

BTW, one can plug R3?L3 with 195 seats or less. The non-Mint B6 A21Ns have 200 seats.

Is that L3/R3 plug permanent? Or can it be reverted back to a fully functional door?

I wonder about that as well, especially with frames acquired from lessor's order books (IINM, B6's entire A321neo order is a direct order from Airbus, meaning any leased frames will be sale-leasebacks)..

WayexTDI wrote:

aemoreira1981 wrote:

I'm surprised that B6 is plugging R3/L3, because if the adventure doesn't work out, not having the door plugged could have them just converted back to standard A321neos (the 200-seat frames have all exits activated). TP with its A321LRs kept R3/L3 active but deleted one of the overwing exits.

BTW, one can plug R3?L3 with 195 seats or less. The non-Mint B6 A21Ns have 200 seats.

Is that L3/R3 plug permanent? Or can it be reverted back to a fully functional door?

The A321 is certified for 200 passengers with two overwing exits, and the (previously) door 3 plugged. In this configuration the aircraft must be equiped with the dual lane slides. The plugged doors can easily be converted back, thereby increasing the exit limit to 244 passengers.

https://thepointsguy.com/news/jetblue-s ... HIlo3C0T6A
While not a full view, we do now have a sneak peek at the tail for the LR

tphuang wrote:

Let's say this is non-LR NEO configured with 160 seats. What is its realistic range vs LR? I'm assuming it can do LAX-HNL. Can it do BOS/JFK-DUB?

LAX-HNL, easily. AA already does that with their A321NEO's. I suspect DUB-BOS is also doable.
Azores Airlines operates a 186-seat A321neo (non-LR) on PDL-BOS (2081nm) and PDL-YYZ (2443nm). Can't recall if they fly to YYZ in the Winter tho.
There have been longer routes out there: BNE-MNL, KEF-ORD, ARN-SID, and as mentioned above all of the Primera routes from continental Europe to BOS/JFK.

tphuang wrote:

Let's say this is non-LR NEO configured with 160 seats. What is its realistic range vs LR? I'm assuming it can do LAX-HNL. Can it do BOS/JFK-DUB?

LAX-HNL, easily. AA already does that with their A321NEO's. I suspect DUB-BOS is also doable.
Azores Airlines operates a 186-seat A321neo (non-LR) on PDL-BOS (2081nm) and PDL-YYZ (2443nm). Can't recall if they fly to YYZ in the Winter tho.
There have been longer routes out there: BNE-MNL, KEF-ORD, ARN-SID, and as mentioned above all of the Primera routes from continental Europe to BOS/JFK.

LesQuatreGats wrote:

ETOPS 180 is necessary for Hawaii. Jetblue will not receive ETOPS 180 immediately. First 120 then 180.

Fortunately, that's only YOUR opinion. Their application says otherwise.

FARmd90 wrote:

https://imgur.com/gallery/am6i4TL

The first 321LR for Jetblue has been spotted out of the paint shop with a new tail design “waives” as well! Note the 3LR door (found on CEO 321s) has been plugged as well. To be N2105J. There also seems to be a large block of windows plugged just starting at the letter “e” where the old 2LR door used to be as well.

This is the bulkhead/lav/snack bar behind the Mint cabin

Here is an image with the mounted tail from Jetblue's instagram today.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CFckkShFJWW ... _copy_link

ajsljet45 wrote:

Here is an image with the mounted tail from Jetblue's instagram today.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CFckkShFJWW ... _copy_link

And It looks like there are no window plugs for the length of the plane except for what looks like to be 1 window right before the overwing exits. It also has the same door layout as a 320

airbazar wrote:

tphuang wrote:

Let's say this is non-LR NEO configured with 160 seats. What is its realistic range vs LR? I'm assuming it can do LAX-HNL. Can it do BOS/JFK-DUB?

LAX-HNL, easily. AA already does that with their A321NEO's. I suspect DUB-BOS is also doable.
Azores Airlines operates a 186-seat A321neo (non-LR) on PDL-BOS (2081nm) and PDL-YYZ (2443nm). Can't recall if they fly to YYZ in the Winter tho.
There have been longer routes out there: BNE-MNL, KEF-ORD, ARN-SID, and as mentioned above all of the Primera routes from continental Europe to BOS/JFK.

Actually AA is running LA- Hawaii with their 321ceo's with winglets.

Leftseatpusher wrote:

LesQuatreGats wrote:

ETOPS 180 is necessary for Hawaii. Jetblue will not receive ETOPS 180 immediately. First 120 then 180.

Fortunately, that's only YOUR opinion. Their application says otherwise.

Speaking of which, are there any news on where they are?
IIRC they started working on ETOPS certification in October 2019 and it takes about 18 months however, no idea what Covid might have done to delay it.

aerlingusa330 wrote:

FARmd90 wrote:

https://imgur.com/gallery/am6i4TL

The first 321LR for Jetblue has been spotted out of the paint shop with a new tail design “waives” as well! Note the 3LR door (found on CEO 321s) has been plugged as well. To be N2105J. There also seems to be a large block of windows plugged just starting at the letter “e” where the old 2LR door used to be as well.

This is the bulkhead/lav/snack bar behind the Mint cabin

No, it isn't.

Anyone know if the B6 LR's & future XLR's will have the "raccoon mask"?

catiii wrote:

aerlingusa330 wrote:

FARmd90 wrote:

https://imgur.com/gallery/am6i4TL

The first 321LR for Jetblue has been spotted out of the paint shop with a new tail design “waives” as well! Note the 3LR door (found on CEO 321s) has been plugged as well. To be N2105J. There also seems to be a large block of windows plugged just starting at the letter “e” where the old 2LR door used to be as well.

This is the bulkhead/lav/snack bar behind the Mint cabin

No, it isn't.

Can you tell us what you think it is?

I believe its the current Mint configuration. These planes were supposed to be 200 Core, but the capacity is no longer needed and Mint is being expanded out of EWR. The plugged windows are the same location as the current lavatory and Marketplace. The entire point of removing 2L/R was to expand the possible footprint of the forward cabin. New photos released today of the 1st NeoLR in progress on the assembly line show only 1 plugged window just forward of the first OWWE and 3L/R (or the new 2L/R?) plugged as well. So JB is taking delivery of two new configurations (and two new tail designs) of the A321neo.

So, we're looking at:

A321ceo
A321ceo with Mint
A321neo
A321neo with Mint
A321neoLR for Europe
A321neoXLR for Europe

UA748i wrote:

No mask though?

It’s more than six feet away from any other aircraft.

Planeboy17 wrote:

N766UA wrote:

TC957 wrote:

Pointless them launching Europe services given the current US travel embargo.

Oh man, why didn’t somebody tell them about that? What a waste of an airplane order!

Um, I’m hoping this is sarcasm because these planes were ordered well before the pandemic.

Seriously?

Westerwaelder wrote:

Planeboy17 wrote:

N766UA wrote:

Oh man, why didn’t somebody tell them about that? What a waste of an airplane order!

Um, I’m hoping this is sarcasm because these planes were ordered well before the pandemic.

Seriously?

I’m sure it was, but unfortunately some posters on this site make it very difficult to tell.
Just look at the post above the one in question.

gaystudpilot wrote:

UA748i wrote:

No mask though?

It’s more than six feet away from any other aircraft.

Pft! Touché

StinkyPinky wrote:

With this door configuration, does anyone know the max passenger capacity?

Exit limits, front and rear door plus:

- one overwing exit = 165 passengers 
- two overwing exits = 195 passengers 
- one overwing exit and door 3 = 210 passengers 
- two overwing exits and door 3 = 240 passengers

B6 has tweeted a picture of its first LR: https://twitter.com/JetBlue/status/1308 ... 37063?s=20

https://www.businesstraveller.com/busin ... -launches/

B6 originally announced that the aircraft would be used to operate flights to LON to BOS and JFK from 2021.

Back at the time I thought that with available slots at LHR being hard and costly to come by that LGW or STN would the airport chosen.

That was until May of this year AA and IAG member carrier BA agreed to give up a number of LON-US slots to address competition concerns raised by the competition and markets authority. Some of the slots given up are for flights to BOS. B6 as a new carrier to the UK would stand a good chance of having these allocated as there presence will add increased competition

https://www.businesstraveller.com/busin ... agreement/