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proudavgeek
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Re: Is DL taking delivery of A350’s from NRT to avoid tariffs?

Wed Sep 16, 2020 7:07 pm

sassiciai wrote:
airboeingbus wrote:
Delta is currently taking delivery of an A350 N514DN the plane is flying now (DL9975) you’d expect this to go from TLS to ATL right? No, it’s going to NRT instead. This seems very unusual and uneconomical unless there’s a benefit for DL, is this a way to get around the tariffs or is there a genuine reason for taking it to NRT?

As you said yourself, Delta would only do this if there is some benefit for DL.

Perhaps picking up some freight? I await the explanation with some interest


That is my guess as well. Why not use the flight to make some $$$ rather than getting it here empty...
 
0newair0
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Re: Is DL taking delivery of A350’s from NRT to avoid tariffs?

Wed Sep 16, 2020 7:07 pm

catiii wrote:
As I recall DL was taking the LATAM 350s (pre Covid) as a work around to paying the tariff as well. LATAM takes delivery, then sells them used to DL.
That was not a work around to get out of paying the tariffs, that was simply part of the deal between LATAM and Delta.
That's not how this works! That's not how any of this works!
 
Waterbomber2
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Re: Is DL taking delivery of A350’s from NRT to avoid tariffs?

Wed Sep 16, 2020 7:10 pm

x1234 wrote:
I do have to say DL planners/legal are pretty smart finding loopholes in US law.



If the legals were so smart, DL wouldn't be taking delivery of these aircraft that they don't need.
 
smartplane
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Re: Is DL taking delivery of A350’s from NRT to avoid tariffs?

Wed Sep 16, 2020 7:10 pm

For tax and funding purposes, not that many years ago commercial aircraft had to land, and more recently perform a touch and go for financing / tax reasons in preferred countries. Later they could overfly, and these days, that's not even usually required.

A convergence of multiple factors, including accessing Japanese finance (including photo opportunity), Japan EXIM, delay / defer US tariff payment , and a revenue opportunity to Japan / to USA? And a revenue cycle or two pre -arrival in the US would make it a used aircraft.
 
0newair0
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Re: Is DL taking delivery of A350’s from NRT to avoid tariffs?

Wed Sep 16, 2020 7:10 pm

LAXffDUB wrote:
raylee67 wrote:
0newair0 wrote:
Yes, Delta takes delivery of non-US produced aircraft subject to tariffs outside of the US and then only flys the aircraft to international markets. This results in the aircraft never being imported to the US and therefore no tariff has to be paid.

Its very simple... No import = no tariff

You can look at flight histories and see that all recent non-US produced aircraft have never flown a domestic US flight.


This is a very weird loophole. Even to fly international flights, the plane will touch down in US, since the flights are essentially from a US city to an international destination (e.g. ATL-CDG). So the moment the plane lands in US, it doesn't count as an import? The planes have US registrations too.


Isn't it a bit odd for them to be getting US registrations?
No, as I mentioned before, both banks and lessors require aircraft to be registered in a country outside of the aircraft's primary base of operations all the time. Registration country is irrelevant.
That's not how this works! That's not how any of this works!
 
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DL_Mech
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Re: Is DL taking delivery of A350’s from NRT to avoid tariffs?

Wed Sep 16, 2020 7:11 pm

I think that people are forgetting that there is a Delta TechOps hangar at NRT that can perform prior to service mods.

Image

From https://news.delta.com/sites/default/files/NRT_hangar_2.jpg

Image

From https://news.delta.com/sites/default/files/NRT_hangar_1.jpg
This plane is built to withstand anything... except a bad pilot.
 
777Mech
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Re: Is DL taking delivery of A350’s from NRT to avoid tariffs?

Wed Sep 16, 2020 8:33 pm

par13del wrote:
Polot wrote:
kavok wrote:
For those not familiar, this whole saga goes back to when DL bought the Bombardier C-Series on the cheap (Bombardier needed a buyer for its new aircraft concept, and offered DL a great deal to be the launch customer). Boeing threw a fit, sued, and got sympathy from the Trump administration who wanted to encourage US based manufacturing. The executive order (tax) was billed as a way to encourage airlines to buy US manufactured planes (I.e. from Boeing).

This put the DL/C-Series deal on ice. Airbus ended up buying the C-Series from Bombardier, agreed to manufacture enough of the new C-Series planes (now A220s) in Alabama to meet legal requirements, and the tax was avoided and the deal went through.

Despite all this, the executive order remained on the books and thus subsequently applied to new A350s deliveries, which were completely foreign assemblies. As the Trump administration’s tax order was hastily written for A220s, which obviously wouldn’t be exclusively flying international routes like the A350s, there were plenty of loop holes for DL to exploit with the A350 deliveries.

Basically, as long as DL takes the A350 deliveries internationally, and doesn’t fly them on a domestic route for the first 6 months, DL fulfills the requirements of avoiding the tax intended for the A220s. Further, as the tax was essentially implemented by executive order, the rules could change in 2021 should a new administration be elected into the White House. And court action in regards to Delta’s tax avoidance would not likely be decided upon before January 2021 anyway.


Uhh no. The tariff stems from the WHO launch aid subsidy battle, not the C-series situation. Nothing ever came out of that as Boeing was ruled against by US courts.

Interesting that this is not the other side of the same coin.
So my comment is here we have another big business refusing to pay their fair share of tax, bummer.


Except it's not a tax. There is a difference between taxes and tariffs.
 
TYWoolman
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Re: Is DL taking delivery of A350’s from NRT to avoid tariffs?

Wed Sep 16, 2020 8:35 pm

In the event of ANY lawsuits stemming from this time, I wonder if any airlines has a case against any government on the handling over covid-19 or against China itself in a counter-suit?
 
TYWoolman
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Re: Is DL taking delivery of A350’s from NRT to avoid tariffs?

Wed Sep 16, 2020 8:37 pm

DL_Mech wrote:
I think that people are forgetting that there is a Delta TechOps hangar at NRT that can perform prior to service mods.

Image

From https://news.delta.com/sites/default/files/NRT_hangar_2.jpg

Image

From https://news.delta.com/sites/default/files/NRT_hangar_1.jpg



The 747 before all the Japanese looks like a deity!
 
luckyone
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Re: Is DL taking delivery of A350’s from NRT to avoid tariffs?

Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:21 pm

Could someone please explain how an aircraft can no longer be considered eligible for a tariff just because it went through a Japanese port? It still has the proverbial "Made in France by Airbus" sticker on it.
 
0newair0
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Re: Is DL taking delivery of A350’s from NRT to avoid tariffs?

Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:27 pm

luckyone wrote:
Could someone please explain how an aircraft can no longer be considered eligible for a tariff just because it went through a Japanese port? It still has the proverbial "Made in France by Airbus" sticker on it.
Going through a Japanese port has nothing to do with it. These aircraft are not subject to the tariff because Delta is not importing the aircraft into the US. The aircraft will only operate international trips and will not be flown domestically until the executive order implementing the tariff is rescinded.
That's not how this works! That's not how any of this works!
 
UA748i
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Re: Is DL taking delivery of A350’s from NRT to avoid tariffs?

Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:28 pm

Couldn't this be similar to what Cargolux has done in the past? Take delivery of a new 748F, but flying it to SEA immediately for a load before leaving?
 
deebee278
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Re: Is DL taking delivery of A350’s from NRT to avoid tariffs?

Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:47 pm

mcg wrote:
So.. for many years Boeing delivered aircraft in Montana to avoid a Washington tax, eventually Washington got the hint and changed their tax.


I was only a teenager at the time but I seem to remember that when an airline took delivery of a Douglas aircraft from the Long Beach factory, they'd fly west into international waters a small ways before completing the deal.
 
airbazar
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Re: Is DL taking delivery of A350’s from NRT to avoid tariffs?

Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:25 pm

airboeingbus wrote:
Wow, so it is to avoid tariffs, I’m surprised this loophole exists. Do they register it In Japan?

You're surprised that a U.S. corporation has access to tax evading loopholes that the regular hardworking citizen don't have while being bailed out by said citizens time and time again? Shocking!
 
luckyone
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Re: Is DL taking delivery of A350’s from NRT to avoid tariffs?

Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:32 pm

0newair0 wrote:
luckyone wrote:
Could someone please explain how an aircraft can no longer be considered eligible for a tariff just because it went through a Japanese port? It still has the proverbial "Made in France by Airbus" sticker on it.
Going through a Japanese port has nothing to do with it. These aircraft are not subject to the tariff because Delta is not importing the aircraft into the US. The aircraft will only operate international trips and will not be flown domestically until the executive order implementing the tariff is rescinded.

That makes absolutely no sense to me. It is a US registered aircraft, operated by a US carrier from US ports with a US license. That is a really loopy loophole.
 
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tistpaa727
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Re: Is DL taking delivery of A350’s from NRT to avoid tariffs?

Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:53 pm

If this is to avoid tariffs and if this is a loophole it has to be a loophole created on purpose. Otherwise, what moron would devise a tariff with this blatant of a loophole? An army of lawyers reviewed, revised and approved the tariff before it went into effect which leads me to think it is created on purpose. Looks good for PR - hey, look, we're tough but behind the scenes very weak to allow actions like this to happen.

Of course, this is all speculative because we don't really know for sure. Like noted earlier, wouldn't this be covered elsewhere in the financial press if it existed?
Don't sweat the little things.
 
0newair0
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Re: Is DL taking delivery of A350’s from NRT to avoid tariffs?

Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:54 pm

luckyone wrote:
0newair0 wrote:
luckyone wrote:
Could someone please explain how an aircraft can no longer be considered eligible for a tariff just because it went through a Japanese port? It still has the proverbial "Made in France by Airbus" sticker on it.
Going through a Japanese port has nothing to do with it. These aircraft are not subject to the tariff because Delta is not importing the aircraft into the US. The aircraft will only operate international trips and will not be flown domestically until the executive order implementing the tariff is rescinded.

That makes absolutely no sense to me. It is a US registered aircraft, operated by a US carrier from US ports with a US license. That is a really loopy loophole.


It makes perfect sense. The product that is subject to IMPORT tariffs is not being IMPORTED. Aircraft registration, and carrier base are irrelevant. The fact that the aircraft will not fly domestically is the only relevant point. All operations will be international.
That's not how this works! That's not how any of this works!
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Is DL taking delivery of A350’s from NRT to avoid tariffs?

Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:07 pm

tistpaa727 wrote:
If this is to avoid tariffs and if this is a loophole it has to be a loophole created on purpose. Otherwise, what moron would devise a tariff with this blatant of a loophole? An army of lawyers reviewed, revised and approved the tariff before it went into effect which leads me to think it is created on purpose. Looks good for PR - hey, look, we're tough but behind the scenes very weak to allow actions like this to happen.


What moron? Look at all the the rule making (the EPA and Homeland Security just to start) and orders that have been invalidated in the courts. People with contempt for government don't use it well.
 
DL777200LR
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Re: Is DL taking delivery of A350’s from NRT to avoid tariffs?

Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:19 pm

0newair0 wrote:
luckyone wrote:
0newair0 wrote:
Going through a Japanese port has nothing to do with it. These aircraft are not subject to the tariff because Delta is not importing the aircraft into the US. The aircraft will only operate international trips and will not be flown domestically until the executive order implementing the tariff is rescinded.

That makes absolutely no sense to me. It is a US registered aircraft, operated by a US carrier from US ports with a US license. That is a really loopy loophole.


It makes perfect sense. The product that is subject to IMPORT tariffs is not being IMPORTED. Aircraft registration, and carrier base are irrelevant. The fact that the aircraft will not fly domestically is the only relevant point. All operations will be international.


And so what happens when it will eventually fly a domestic route in the future??
Last edited by DL777200LR on Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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0newair0
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Re: Is DL taking delivery of A350’s from NRT to avoid tariffs?

Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:19 pm

DL777200LR wrote:
0newair0 wrote:
luckyone wrote:
That makes absolutely no sense to me. It is a US registered aircraft, operated by a US carrier from US ports with a US license. That is a really loopy loophole.


It makes perfect sense. The product that is subject to IMPORT tariffs is not being IMPORTED. Aircraft registration, and carrier base are irrelevant. The fact that the aircraft will not fly domestically is the only relevant point. All operations will be international.


And so what happens when it does fly domestically?


It will be imported.
That's not how this works! That's not how any of this works!
 
Adispatcher
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Re: Is DL taking delivery of A350’s from NRT to avoid tariffs?

Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:40 pm

0newair0 wrote:
luckyone wrote:
Could someone please explain how an aircraft can no longer be considered eligible for a tariff just because it went through a Japanese port? It still has the proverbial "Made in France by Airbus" sticker on it.
Going through a Japanese port has nothing to do with it. These aircraft are not subject to the tariff because Delta is not importing the aircraft into the US. The aircraft will only operate international trips and will not be flown domestically until the executive order implementing the tariff is rescinded.


Correct. Until a threshold is reached, these aircraft operate in a slightly more complicated state.
 
mcg
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Re: Is DL taking delivery of A350’s from NRT to avoid tariffs?

Thu Sep 17, 2020 12:25 am

tistpaa727 wrote:
If this is to avoid tariffs and if this is a loophole it has to be a loophole created on purpose. Otherwise, what moron would devise a tariff with this blatant of a loophole? An army of lawyers reviewed, revised and approved the tariff before it went into effect which leads me to think it is created on purpose. Looks good for PR - hey, look, we're tough but behind the scenes very weak to allow actions like this to happen.

Of course, this is all speculative because we don't really know for sure. Like noted earlier, wouldn't this be covered elsewhere in the financial press if it existed?


Well, the tariff was dreamed up and drafted by the current administration in the White House.
 
paperwastage
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Re: Is DL taking delivery of A350’s from NRT to avoid tariffs?

Thu Sep 17, 2020 12:37 am

luckyone wrote:
0newair0 wrote:
luckyone wrote:
Could someone please explain how an aircraft can no longer be considered eligible for a tariff just because it went through a Japanese port? It still has the proverbial "Made in France by Airbus" sticker on it.
Going through a Japanese port has nothing to do with it. These aircraft are not subject to the tariff because Delta is not importing the aircraft into the US. The aircraft will only operate international trips and will not be flown domestically until the executive order implementing the tariff is rescinded.

That makes absolutely no sense to me. It is a US registered aircraft, operated by a US carrier from US ports with a US license. That is a really loopy loophole.



as people mention above, it could be owned by a holding company based outside of US (plus a team of lawyers to argue about their definition/interpretation of the US law for import taxes)

any lawyers to point out the tariff documentation? slightly interested in reading the legalese, and how DL is making loopholes on it
 
Bolante007
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Re: Is DL taking delivery of A350’s from NRT to avoid tariffs?

Thu Sep 17, 2020 12:46 am

This is very smart, kinda like how Russia puts flags of the Caribbean on many of their planes haha! I am happy to hear this though I want Delta to flourish in Asia(I live in Japan) and I'd like to see that Singapore route again. United is pulling its hub out of NRT due to COVID but Delta is still around here ALONE, of course Korean Air is next door but Japan its another market.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Is DL taking delivery of A350’s from NRT to avoid tariffs?

Thu Sep 17, 2020 12:50 am

I would have to think the regulators would take a dim view of this. And it's nonsense to say it won't be operating domestic flights. It most certainly will. All Delta wide-bodies get used occasionally on domestic flights.
 
FlyGuy27
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Re: Is DL taking delivery of A350’s from NRT to avoid tariffs?

Thu Sep 17, 2020 1:01 am

So, DL gets taxpayer bailouts, and pulls stunts like this (including being involved in the drafting of the loophole). All American taxpayers should be appalled by this level of corruption (yes - it's corruption - structuring and drafting the law for your own purposes is corruption).
 
0newair0
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Re: Is DL taking delivery of A350’s from NRT to avoid tariffs?

Thu Sep 17, 2020 1:09 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
I would have to think the regulators would take a dim view of this. And it's nonsense to say it won't be operating domestic flights. It most certainly will. All Delta wide-bodies get used occasionally on domestic flights.
These will not. There are also A321s that are not used domestically because of this
That's not how this works! That's not how any of this works!
 
asuflyer
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Re: Is DL taking delivery of A350’s from NRT to avoid tariffs?

Thu Sep 17, 2020 1:11 am

luckyone wrote:
0newair0 wrote:
luckyone wrote:
Could someone please explain how an aircraft can no longer be considered eligible for a tariff just because it went through a Japanese port? It still has the proverbial "Made in France by Airbus" sticker on it.
Going through a Japanese port has nothing to do with it. These aircraft are not subject to the tariff because Delta is not importing the aircraft into the US. The aircraft will only operate international trips and will not be flown domestically until the executive order implementing the tariff is rescinded.

That makes absolutely no sense to me. It is a US registered aircraft, operated by a US carrier from US ports with a US license. That is a really loopy loophole.


If you look at Avianca and Volaris they have been doing this for years with their US registered aircraft. US registry allows for aircraft to be based abroad yet still carry US registrations.
 
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N717TW
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Re: Is DL taking delivery of A350’s from NRT to avoid tariffs?

Thu Sep 17, 2020 2:24 am

DFW17L wrote:
Kinda like taking delivery of your new BMW in Munich instead of from your friendly neighborhood US-based dealership? Saves $$. I could be guilty of over simplifying things.


It is exactly like this...having bough my German car (albeit not a BMW) this way. I picked up my car at the factory, it came with special plates and temporary car insurance (up to 14 days I think, but it was nearly 4 years ago so don't quote me); I drove it from Stuttgart to Bremen put several hundred miles on it; it was wrapped and put on a boat. I picked it up at the dealership near my house about 3 1/2 weeks later. Never paid the import duty b/c it came to the US as a used car I was transferring my own property. Plus I got a free rental car in Europe! Paid state sales tax when I registered it but even that was lower since I was able to drop the import duty from the price I paid. So overall, I saved a ton. Volvo has the best deal, FYI (or at least it did when I was buying my car)...it includes a free SK plane ticket and one night hotel. I totally would do it again.
 
flyfresno
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Re: Is DL taking delivery of A350’s from NRT to avoid tariffs?

Thu Sep 17, 2020 4:33 am

So Delta is maintaining a (albeit very tiny and inconsistent) presence at Narita after all then?
 
factsonly
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Re: Is DL taking delivery of A350’s from NRT to avoid tariffs?

Thu Sep 17, 2020 7:38 am

It is not only about new DL Airbus aircraft being delivered through Japan or the DL hangar at Narita!!

The point is that NEW DL Airbus aircraft are NO LONGER delivered direct to the USA, but remain abroad FOR AN EXTENDED PERIOD OF TIME for import tariff reasons.


Here is the delivery of DL A350 N515DN from TLS to AMS on September 16th, 2020:

- 16 Sep 2020 TLS 21.40 - AMS 23.03 DL9936 A350 N515DN

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flig ... 6#2583e40a

The aircraft is now at the KLM maintenance base.
 
JibberJim
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Re: Is DL taking delivery of A350’s from NRT to avoid tariffs?

Thu Sep 17, 2020 8:13 am

PANAMsterdam wrote:
That would be nice for me, as a Dutch person living next door to Germany, but then I would still have to pay 21% Dutch VAT after I've already paid the 19% German VAT.


You can avoid the Dutch VAT by having the car registered for 6 months elsewhere in the EU, though.

Car harmonisation are really something the EU needs to actually sort out, the ability for double taxation is not in the interest of the single market.
 
Andyq400
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Re: Is DL taking delivery of A350’s from NRT to avoid tariffs?

Thu Sep 17, 2020 8:39 am

Reported here earlier- Use Google to translate:

On September 9, Delta Air Lines (DAL / DL) will carry out pre-use maintenance of the Airbus A350-900 and A330-900 (A330neo), which are being introduced, at the company's maintenance department "Delta Tech Ops" at Narita Airport. ) ”Was announced. For the new aircraft received, maintenance work before the start of commercial operation, including the installation of a Wi-Fi system, will be carried out toward the end of the year.

Narita will carry out pre-use maintenance on two A350-900s and three A330-900s, for a total of five aircraft. In mid-September and early December, he arrived in Narita from Toulouse, France, where the final assembly plant for Airbus is located, and will work at Tech Ops. The five passenger planes are scheduled to be launched on trans-Pacific routes such as the Los Angeles-Sydney route as successors to the Boeing 777, which will be retired later this year.

 Delta has ordered 35 A350-900s and is operating 13 of them. After the delivery of two aircraft this month, the remaining 20 aircraft will be received sequentially from 2022 to 2026.

 37 A330-900s, which went into service in July 2019, have been ordered, and 5 are in operation. After receiving three aircraft by the end of the year, the remaining 29 aircraft are expected to be delivered from 2021 to 2025.

 Delta Air Lines, which first introduced the A350 in North America, is equipped with the private room type business class "Delta One Suite" for the first time. Starting with the Detroit route, which arrived at Narita on October 31, 2017, the Japanese route has been introduced mainly on the Pacific route connecting the United States and Asia. Compared to the 747, which was nicknamed Jumbo and retired, the operating cost per seat has improved by 20%.

 Narita's Tech Ops is a hangar facility with an area of ​​13,000 square meters and opened in December 2014. This is the first contract for a dedicated hanger by Delta Air Lines outside the United States, and it has been approved as a certified business site by the Civil Aviation Bureau (JCAB) of the Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport and Tourism.・ Disassembly and inspection) services are provided.



https://www.aviationwire.jp/archives/210409
 
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Exrampieyyz
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Re: Is DL taking delivery of A350’s from NRT to avoid tariffs?

Thu Sep 17, 2020 9:02 am

zeke wrote:
TC957 wrote:
Seems to me that if this is really for a tax dodge, then how come not more airlines have cottoned on to this..


I think jurisdictional convenience of transaction are very widespread with large assets. Heard stories of aircraft transactions completing while the aircraft was outside the territory of a country to avoid taxes. Many of these sale and lease back deals you see the banks would own the aircraft via a tax free shell company.



MIflyer12 wrote:

I believe you are correct. The current tariffs on foreign-assembled Airbus products is the WTO-authorized retaliation for the long-litigated launch aid dispute.

10% - https://www.cnbc.com/2019/10/02/us-to-i ... l-pay.html

raised to 15% - https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... 15-percent


I heard that EU tarrifs on US goods will be starting soon. There were two cases, one the US vs the EU and the second EU vs US, they are about 12 months apart.

While working for AC, I was on a crew that worked the 747-433 Combi's. AC had 3 of them. They flew YYZ-LHR, YYZ-FRA or YYZ-CDG turns and YUL-CDG.
One week for each of the 3 aircraft we unloaded the inbound. Pushed back the plane empty, It returned 3 hours later when we loaded it up for the delayed departure.
We were told it was a sale/lease back done over intl. Airspace to save on taxes and tariffs.
P51 P38 TBM B17 T34P ST75 C150/72/85 C402/21 AA1 B06 S232/33 AC80 BE35 DC3/4M/8/9/10 DHC4/6/7/8 CRJ2/9 CONI L188 L101 B717/27/37/47/57/67/77/87 A319/20/21/30/40/80 E175/90 BA46 BA11 CLVT A748 B190 JS31 SW4 SF34 F28 VISC VC9
my.flightradar24.com/boeinga1
 
catiii
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Re: Is DL taking delivery of A350’s from NRT to avoid tariffs?

Thu Sep 17, 2020 12:36 pm

FlyGuy27 wrote:
So, DL gets taxpayer bailouts, and pulls stunts like this (including being involved in the drafting of the loophole). All American taxpayers should be appalled by this level of corruption (yes - it's corruption - structuring and drafting the law for your own purposes is corruption).


What taxpayer bailout did Delta get? Or are you confused by the payroll support that Delta employees got to avoid being laid off?

They were not involved in drafting the tariff. I know that's what everyone here wants to think with their feigned outrage and what not. The Trump Administration unilaterally drafted it, and as I mentioned above they have little love for Delta, the President has cited that he does not like that Delta is an Airbus customer (https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-f ... tar-2019-7) (https://mynbc15.com/news/local/airbus-r ... s-purchase), and they certainly would not do anything to try and help Delta.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Is DL taking delivery of A350’s from NRT to avoid tariffs?

Thu Sep 17, 2020 4:17 pm

FlyGuy27 wrote:
So, DL gets taxpayer bailouts, and pulls stunts like this (including being involved in the drafting of the loophole). All American taxpayers should be appalled by this level of corruption (yes - it's corruption - structuring and drafting the law for your own purposes is corruption).

It's a sign of our times. Anything a corporation does to squeeze out a buck is OK, that's what corporations are for, after all. Morality and ethics don't apply to inanimate things such as corporations. Yet according to SCOTUS via Citizens United, corporations are people too, so they get to have opinions, including the ability to influence legislation and elections. Given most people work for corporations and whatever retirement savings they have via 401k et al are largely in the form of stock market investments, there is no substantial push back.
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catiii
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Re: Is DL taking delivery of A350’s from NRT to avoid tariffs?

Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:42 pm

Revelation wrote:
FlyGuy27 wrote:
So, DL gets taxpayer bailouts, and pulls stunts like this (including being involved in the drafting of the loophole). All American taxpayers should be appalled by this level of corruption (yes - it's corruption - structuring and drafting the law for your own purposes is corruption).

It's a sign of our times. Anything a corporation does to squeeze out a buck is OK, that's what corporations are for, after all. Morality and ethics don't apply to inanimate things such as corporations. Yet according to SCOTUS via Citizens United, corporations are people too, so they get to have opinions, including the ability to influence legislation and elections. Given most people work for corporations and whatever retirement savings they have via 401k et al are largely in the form of stock market investments, there is no substantial push back.


Except the basic premise of the post is wholly incorrect.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 6306
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Is DL taking delivery of A350’s from NRT to avoid tariffs?

Fri Sep 18, 2020 12:09 am

Any taxpayer, individual or business has no legal or moral requirement to pay more taxes than written in the law.

GF
 
Canuck600
Posts: 293
Joined: Tue Aug 01, 2017 5:24 pm

Re: Is DL taking delivery of A350’s from NRT to avoid tariffs?

Fri Sep 18, 2020 1:42 am

What GalaxyFlyer says, I can't believe how naive some of the people on this forum are, people & businesses all over the world avoid paying anymore taxes then they need to.
 
Dalmd88
Posts: 3150
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 3:19 am

Re: Is DL taking delivery of A350’s from NRT to avoid tariffs?

Fri Sep 18, 2020 2:25 pm

I know the cruise industry is pretty much stuck in port, but they are a prime example of a similar tactic. For most of their existence companies like Carnival and Royal Caribbean have been US companies, but ever notice the name on the back of the ships? Ships are almost always registered in places like Panama or the Bahamas. As long as every cruise makes a stop in a foreign port they are allowed to not be US registered.

The only times you will see US registered cruise ships are the inter Hawaii cruises and Mississippi River cruises.

Another example of registrations of convenience we see everyday but never really notice. Start looking at the trailers of 18 wheeler trucks. Most are plated in either Oklahoma or Maine. Most of the trucking companies are not based in either of those two states. Those states have very low fees for trailer registrations.

Delta has been doing the accept the Airbus dance since the tariff went into effect. We sent an ATL mtc crew to NRT to do the acceptance checks on the first couple of A350 that went through this dance. They did the work and trained the Delta AMT's there so they would be qualified to do the work. I think it was last fall this happened.

So doesn't UAL have some pending A350 deliveries? Want to start making bets on where they enter the UAL system? I would not put any money on SFO.
 
YYZYYT
Posts: 1087
Joined: Tue Apr 05, 2005 12:41 am

Re: Is DL taking delivery of A350’s from NRT to avoid tariffs?

Fri Sep 18, 2020 3:34 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
DTW-YYZ-ATL repositioning flights?


PLEASE!
:cloudnine:

Canuck600 wrote:
What GalaxyFlyer says, I can't believe how naive some of the people on this forum are, people & businesses all over the world avoid paying anymore taxes then they need to.


Yes, moving assets to take advantage of lower taxes / fees / duties / happens all the time in all sorts of industries (does the term "flag of convenience" ring a bell?). Not to mention wage disparities, less stringent labour laws, etc. etc..
 
Lootess
Posts: 498
Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 6:15 am

Re: Is DL taking delivery of A350’s from NRT to avoid tariffs?

Fri Sep 18, 2020 5:23 pm

YYZYYT wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
DTW-YYZ-ATL repositioning flights?


PLEASE!
:cloudnine:

Canuck600 wrote:
What GalaxyFlyer says, I can't believe how naive some of the people on this forum are, people & businesses all over the world avoid paying anymore taxes then they need to.


Yes, moving assets to take advantage of lower taxes / fees / duties / happens all the time in all sorts of industries (does the term "flag of convenience" ring a bell?). Not to mention wage disparities, less stringent labour laws, etc. etc..


Yep. Not a peep ever mentioned about how Boeing used tax break leverage to keep building new planes in the Puget Sound, it was relinquished earlier this year because of WTO concerns but it also gives them an out to close down the Everett 787 line.
 
jagraham
Posts: 1132
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2016 11:10 pm

Re: Is DL taking delivery of A350’s from NRT to avoid tariffs?

Fri Sep 18, 2020 6:14 pm

I find it fascinating that DL is taking delivery of new aircraft at all.

As for what they do with it, I know DL flew several onward routes from CDG before COVID. So there is something that DL can do with those planes without them touching US soil for a time if that's what is required to avoid the tariff. Otherwise it's pretty confusing . . . but after the auto bailout I wouldn't put anything past a good lawyer.
 
TTailedTiger
Posts: 2646
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 am

Re: Is DL taking delivery of A350’s from NRT to avoid tariffs?

Fri Sep 18, 2020 9:14 pm

If Delta wants to play this game then the government should take notes and hold Delta to the law no matter in the future. Stuff that usually gets a "fix it ticket" from the FAA should be fined to the highest extent possible to makeup for the loss in tax revenue.
 
Nick614
Posts: 66
Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2017 10:55 am

Re: Is DL taking delivery of A350’s from NRT to avoid tariffs?

Fri Sep 18, 2020 9:32 pm

mcg wrote:
So.. for many years Boeing delivered aircraft in Montana to avoid a Washington tax, eventually Washington got the hint and changed their tax.

This whole thing simply illustrates what an economics professor said a long time ago, "tariffs are stupid".


The workers assembling airbus planes in Alabama disagree
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 19186
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: Is DL taking delivery of A350’s from NRT to avoid tariffs?

Fri Sep 18, 2020 9:37 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
If Delta wants to play this game then the government should take notes and hold Delta to the law no matter in the future. Stuff that usually gets a "fix it ticket" from the FAA should be fined to the highest extent possible to makeup for the loss in tax revenue.


If the law isn't working as intended, fix the law. Delta would be failing its shareholders if it paid a penny more to the government than it needs to. I love the smell of capitalism in the morning!
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
jomur
Posts: 361
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2016 6:36 pm

Re: Is DL taking delivery of A350’s from NRT to avoid tariffs?

Sat Sep 19, 2020 10:22 am

The way I see it is if I brought something into the US for a holiday but then take it home again and do this on every trip I pay no import duty but if i leave it in the US for someone else to use there then I would have to pay import duty.
 
MartijnNL
Posts: 999
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2017 11:44 am

Re: Is DL taking delivery of A350’s from NRT to avoid tariffs?

Sat Sep 19, 2020 11:55 am

catiii wrote:
(...)The Trump Administration unilaterally drafted it, and as I mentioned above they have little love for Delta, the President has cited that he does not like that Delta is an Airbus customer (...) and they certainly would not do anything to try and help Delta.

Does he have a similar opinion on American Airlines?
 
mxaxai
Posts: 2011
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:29 am

Re: Is DL taking delivery of A350’s from NRT to avoid tariffs?

Sat Sep 19, 2020 2:31 pm

YYZYYT wrote:
Yes, moving assets to take advantage of lower taxes / fees / duties / happens all the time in all sorts of industries (does the term "flag of convenience" ring a bell?). Not to mention wage disparities, less stringent labour laws, etc. etc..

We've seen this in aviation before. For example, Norwegian had (has?) so many AOC in different countries to exploit labor law differences. Ryanair's new AOC in Malta is for the same purpose; Ryanair also likes to base crews in places with more relaxed labor laws and without unions. Aeroflot and other Russian airlines register all their western aircraft in Bermuda to avoid import taxes and Russian beaurocracy. Additionally, some airlines maintain multiple AOC to acquire certain traffic rights, like Easyjet's new Austrian AOC and headquarter or KLM Asia.
 
catiii
Posts: 3613
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:18 am

Re: Is DL taking delivery of A350’s from NRT to avoid tariffs?

Sat Sep 19, 2020 2:55 pm

MartijnNL wrote:
catiii wrote:
(...)The Trump Administration unilaterally drafted it, and as I mentioned above they have little love for Delta, the President has cited that he does not like that Delta is an Airbus customer (...) and they certainly would not do anything to try and help Delta.

Does he have a similar opinion on American Airlines?


Not if his comments about Doug Parker are any indication.

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