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Web500sjc
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Re: Is DL taking delivery of A350’s from NRT to avoid tariffs?

Sat Sep 19, 2020 3:02 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
If Delta wants to play this game then the government should take notes and hold Delta to the law no matter in the future. Stuff that usually gets a "fix it ticket" from the FAA should be fined to the highest extent possible to makeup for the loss in tax revenue.



One could say that the tarring is either implemented in a way that is easily worked around, or the tarried is so high that DL is willing to make the operation more complicated to get around the tariff.

I would gather option 2 is more correct- the tariff is so high that DL is willing to complicate the operation in order to not pay the tariff.
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FabDiva
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Re: Is DL taking delivery of A350’s from NRT to avoid tariffs?

Sat Sep 19, 2020 4:04 pm

I recall that for some Lease/Finance transactions on new aircraft the aircraft had to be in UK airspace when the payment was made (guessing a UK financier), so some deliveries from both Boeing and Airbus would do a few orbits over the UK while the paperwork was signed then head for the final destination.
 
peachair
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Re: Is DL taking delivery of A350’s from NRT to avoid tariffs?

Sat Sep 19, 2020 5:09 pm

FluidFlow wrote:
The EU has an FTA with Japan so importing the aircraft into Japan will be tax free. So if it will be registered in Japan and then transfered to the USA it maybe will count as an import from Japan.
How long will it have to be sitting in Japan before it can be imported as a Japanese aircraft?
Under normal circumstances you probably lose out too much revenue by parking it for so long if you need it but right now that is of no concern.



6 months
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Is DL taking delivery of A350’s from NRT to avoid tariffs?

Sat Sep 19, 2020 5:22 pm

Nick614 wrote:
mcg wrote:
So.. for many years Boeing delivered aircraft in Montana to avoid a Washington tax, eventually Washington got the hint and changed their tax.

This whole thing simply illustrates what an economics professor said a long time ago, "tariffs are stupid".


The workers assembling airbus planes in Alabama disagree

Why? The Mobile FAL was originally intended to be for the KC-X Program; when Airbus lost it, they realized that they could use the additional capacity, since some of the study work was already there.
Tariffs were implemented way after the opening of the FAL.
 
Antarius
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Re: Is DL taking delivery of A350’s from NRT to avoid tariffs?

Sat Sep 19, 2020 5:32 pm

catiii wrote:
MartijnNL wrote:
catiii wrote:
(...)The Trump Administration unilaterally drafted it, and as I mentioned above they have little love for Delta, the President has cited that he does not like that Delta is an Airbus customer (...) and they certainly would not do anything to try and help Delta.

Does he have a similar opinion on American Airlines?


Not if his comments about Doug Parker are any indication.


Which is ironic given American being the worlds largest operator of the a320 family. :D
Last edited by Antarius on Sat Sep 19, 2020 5:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
2020: SFO DFW IAH HOU CLT MEX BIS MIA GUA ORD DTW LGA BOS LHR DUB BFS BHD STN OAK PHL ISP JFK SJC DEN SJU LAS TXL GDL
 
0newair0
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Re: Is DL taking delivery of A350’s from NRT to avoid tariffs?

Sat Sep 19, 2020 5:32 pm

Nick614 wrote:
mcg wrote:
So.. for many years Boeing delivered aircraft in Montana to avoid a Washington tax, eventually Washington got the hint and changed their tax.

This whole thing simply illustrates what an economics professor said a long time ago, "tariffs are stupid".


The workers assembling airbus planes in Alabama disagree


Just to be clear, aircraft going through final assembly in Alabama are not subject to the tariff.
That's not how this works! That's not how any of this works!
 
Airlinerdude
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Re: Is DL taking delivery of A350’s from NRT to avoid tariffs?

Sat Sep 19, 2020 6:21 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
If Delta wants to play this game then the government should take notes and hold Delta to the law no matter in the future. Stuff that usually gets a "fix it ticket" from the FAA should be fined to the highest extent possible to makeup for the loss in tax revenue.


Why? I see no abusive use of this nuance in the tax code. The broader concept of import taxes is to tax a good coming into that country because that's where it will be used. Delta will ultimately be using this aircraft for its international routes, thus no need to pay import taxes.

The same tax code permitting Delta to avoid import taxes is also freely available for use by any ordinary American too. As an example, plenty of Americans use this exact concept when purchasing boats on the Canadian side of the PNW, avoiding bringing the boat into the US. They then can boat freely around the PNW (including into the US provided they keep their boat moored in Canada. No abuse here.
 
strfyr51
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Re: Is DL taking delivery of A350’s from NRT to avoid tariffs?

Sat Sep 19, 2020 6:42 pm

jagraham wrote:
I find it fascinating that DL is taking delivery of new aircraft at all.

As for what they do with it, I know DL flew several onward routes from CDG before COVID. So there is something that DL can do with those planes without them touching US soil for a time if that's what is required to avoid the tariff. Otherwise it's pretty confusing . . . but after the auto bailout I wouldn't put anything past a good lawyer.

Isn't this just a business arrangement? Delta is buying them From the original purchaser and Not from the Factory if I understand correctly. Who KNows what arrangement they might have made? Delta is as saavy an airline as there ever WAS.
whatever they're doing? Is sure as Hell in Delta's best interest. On that?? you cab make Book on!!
 
Lootess
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Re: Is DL taking delivery of A350’s from NRT to avoid tariffs?

Sat Sep 19, 2020 11:15 pm

strfyr51 wrote:
jagraham wrote:
I find it fascinating that DL is taking delivery of new aircraft at all.

As for what they do with it, I know DL flew several onward routes from CDG before COVID. So there is something that DL can do with those planes without them touching US soil for a time if that's what is required to avoid the tariff. Otherwise it's pretty confusing . . . but after the auto bailout I wouldn't put anything past a good lawyer.

Isn't this just a business arrangement? Delta is buying them From the original purchaser and Not from the Factory if I understand correctly. Who KNows what arrangement they might have made? Delta is as saavy an airline as there ever WAS.
whatever they're doing? Is sure as Hell in Delta's best interest. On that?? you cab make Book on!!


Yes, this is the LATAM inherited order. Of course they work with Airbus on basically changing on who gets the bill, interiors options, paint, etc.

Delta's initial A350 order, they would have had the final 10 by this year but they deferred those last ones to 2025-26 with some A339 options when they made the A321 top-up order. The 2019 LATAM deal in a sense covered this gap as the market game has changed since they made that deferral option in 2017. The airline was printing money at-will then, so no reason not to keep taking more A359s and grow the LATAM JV, right?

Remember Delta paid $65m to reject the 4 A359s that were in LATAM's fleet, since they are heavier models. Getting the 280 tonne A359 deliveries had to play a large factor in retiring the 777.
 
Nick614
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Re: Is DL taking delivery of A350’s from NRT to avoid tariffs?

Sun Sep 20, 2020 11:59 am

0newair0 wrote:
Nick614 wrote:
mcg wrote:
So.. for many years Boeing delivered aircraft in Montana to avoid a Washington tax, eventually Washington got the hint and changed their tax.

This whole thing simply illustrates what an economics professor said a long time ago, "tariffs are stupid".


The workers assembling airbus planes in Alabama disagree


Just to be clear, aircraft going through final assembly in Alabama are not subject to the tariff.


Just to be clear, the only reason final assembly is in Alabama is because of tariffs
 
0newair0
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Re: Is DL taking delivery of A350’s from NRT to avoid tariffs?

Sun Sep 20, 2020 12:04 pm

Nick614 wrote:
0newair0 wrote:
Nick614 wrote:

The workers assembling airbus planes in Alabama disagree


Just to be clear, aircraft going through final assembly in Alabama are not subject to the tariff.


Just to be clear, the only reason final assembly is in Alabama is because of tariffs
It may be the reason for the additional 220 line but it is not the reason why the facility exists or why the 320 is also built there.
That's not how this works! That's not how any of this works!
 
Nick614
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Re: Is DL taking delivery of A350’s from NRT to avoid tariffs?

Sun Sep 20, 2020 12:11 pm

0newair0 wrote:
Nick614 wrote:
0newair0 wrote:

Just to be clear, aircraft going through final assembly in Alabama are not subject to the tariff.


Just to be clear, the only reason final assembly is in Alabama is because of tariffs
It may be the reason for the additional 220 line but it is not the reason why the facility exists or why the 320 is also built there.


If there weren't tariffs it wouldn't make financial sense to spend 600 million to build a plant to build 40 a/c per year for US carriers. They would have just made them in Europe or China.
 
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par13del
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Re: Is DL taking delivery of A350’s from NRT to avoid tariffs?

Sun Sep 20, 2020 12:15 pm

Airlinerdude wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
If Delta wants to play this game then the government should take notes and hold Delta to the law no matter in the future. Stuff that usually gets a "fix it ticket" from the FAA should be fined to the highest extent possible to makeup for the loss in tax revenue.


Why? I see no abusive use of this nuance in the tax code. The broader concept of import taxes is to tax a good coming into that country because that's where it will be used. Delta will ultimately be using this aircraft for its international routes, thus no need to pay import taxes.

The same tax code permitting Delta to avoid import taxes is also freely available for use by any ordinary American too. As an example, plenty of Americans use this exact concept when purchasing boats on the Canadian side of the PNW, avoiding bringing the boat into the US. They then can boat freely around the PNW (including into the US provided they keep their boat moored in Canada. No abuse here.

How is this in principle any different from wealthy people and corporations using the same tax codes to evade taxes and tariffs?
Tell me it is not because they have money.
 
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par13del
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Re: Is DL taking delivery of A350’s from NRT to avoid tariffs?

Sun Sep 20, 2020 12:17 pm

Nick614 wrote:
0newair0 wrote:
Nick614 wrote:

Just to be clear, the only reason final assembly is in Alabama is because of tariffs
It may be the reason for the additional 220 line but it is not the reason why the facility exists or why the 320 is also built there.


If there weren't tariffs it wouldn't make financial sense to spend 600 million to build a plant to build 40 a/c per year for US carriers. They would have just made them in Europe or China.

So the talk in years past about labor cost and currency hedging was just talk?
If so, no wonder the tanker threads were so cantankerous....
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Is DL taking delivery of A350’s from NRT to avoid tariffs?

Sun Sep 20, 2020 2:12 pm

par13del wrote:
Airlinerdude wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
If Delta wants to play this game then the government should take notes and hold Delta to the law no matter in the future. Stuff that usually gets a "fix it ticket" from the FAA should be fined to the highest extent possible to makeup for the loss in tax revenue.


Why? I see no abusive use of this nuance in the tax code. The broader concept of import taxes is to tax a good coming into that country because that's where it will be used. Delta will ultimately be using this aircraft for its international routes, thus no need to pay import taxes.

The same tax code permitting Delta to avoid import taxes is also freely available for use by any ordinary American too. As an example, plenty of Americans use this exact concept when purchasing boats on the Canadian side of the PNW, avoiding bringing the boat into the US. They then can boat freely around the PNW (including into the US provided they keep their boat moored in Canada. No abuse here.

How is this in principle any different from wealthy people and corporations using the same tax codes to evade taxes and tariffs?
Tell me it is not because they have money.


They’re not “using the tax code”; they’re complying with it as written. Lawyers spend days and weeks writing the language, it’s not accident.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Is DL taking delivery of A350’s from NRT to avoid tariffs?

Sun Sep 20, 2020 2:22 pm

par13del wrote:
How is this in principle any different from wealthy people and corporations using the same tax codes to evade taxes and tariffs?
Tell me it is not because they have money.


It's no different, with one minor caveat - evasion of taxes is illegal while avoidance of paying a penny more in taxes than is absolutely necessary is perfectly acceptable (indeed everyone should be doing it).
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par13del
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Re: Is DL taking delivery of A350’s from NRT to avoid tariffs?

Sun Sep 20, 2020 2:28 pm

scbriml wrote:
par13del wrote:
How is this in principle any different from wealthy people and corporations using the same tax codes to evade taxes and tariffs?
Tell me it is not because they have money.


It's no different, with one minor caveat - evasion of taxes is illegal while avoidance of paying a penny more in taxes than is absolutely necessary is perfectly acceptable (indeed everyone should be doing it).

Well one does have to wonder why numerous governments are rewriting tax codes and other rules and regulations, where things are illegal governments do not hesitate to take court action. Everyone takes advantage of loop holes, whether they are taxes, tariffs, individual, business houses, charities etc etc etc, none is more moral or better than the other.
 
catiii
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Re: Is DL taking delivery of A350’s from NRT to avoid tariffs?

Sun Sep 20, 2020 3:44 pm

Nick614 wrote:
0newair0 wrote:
Nick614 wrote:

The workers assembling airbus planes in Alabama disagree


Just to be clear, aircraft going through final assembly in Alabama are not subject to the tariff.


Just to be clear, the only reason final assembly is in Alabama is because of tariffs


Except the Mobile FAL was announced and constructed well before any of the tariffs were even contemplated.

So no, that’s not the only reason.
 
Nick614
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Re: Is DL taking delivery of A350’s from NRT to avoid tariffs?

Sun Sep 20, 2020 4:06 pm

catiii wrote:
Nick614 wrote:
0newair0 wrote:

Just to be clear, aircraft going through final assembly in Alabama are not subject to the tariff.


Just to be clear, the only reason final assembly is in Alabama is because of tariffs


Except the Mobile FAL was announced and constructed well before any of the tariffs were even contemplated.

So no, that’s not the only reason.


That is false. WTO proceedings started in 2004 and a decision and appeal process were followed until the appellate decision in May 2011. This found Airbus received subsidies, The US then said they would take up 22.4 concessions, which are tariffs. Airbus then spent 600 million to turn the Mobile facility from a potential KC-30 production site to an A320 assembly site in 2012.

So Airbus knew tariffs were coming.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Is DL taking delivery of A350’s from NRT to avoid tariffs?

Sun Sep 20, 2020 4:15 pm

Nick614 wrote:
0newair0 wrote:
Nick614 wrote:

The workers assembling airbus planes in Alabama disagree


Just to be clear, aircraft going through final assembly in Alabama are not subject to the tariff.


Just to be clear, the only reason final assembly is in Alabama is because of tariffs

No, the FAL in Alabama was originally planned for the KC-X program. Since Airbus needed additional FAL capacity and had already spent money with the study, why not go through with the plan?
 
enplaned
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Re: Is DL taking delivery of A350’s from NRT to avoid tariffs?

Sun Sep 20, 2020 4:15 pm

ytib wrote:
All airlines know how to get around additional taxes. Back in the mid-2000's Frontier wouldn't accept delivery of new aircraft in Denver to avoid around $1.3 million in taxes by the City of Denver. Instead they would put them into service in Phoenix.
https://www.bizjournals.com/denver/stor ... tory4.html


This was still true in 2013. Not sure if the laws have changed on that specific issue.

Airlines and aircraft owners take advantage of tax law differences in all kinds of ways. For instance, if an aircraft that is leased to an airline changes hands, the lessor and the airline will coordinate to ensure the legal transfer happens while the aircraft is on the ground in a good jurisdiction. You will have airline dispatch coordinated with a law firm, a message will go from dispatch to the law firms involved that the aircraft is on the ground in a "good" jurisdiction, and the paperwork will be executed (which means taking pre-signed pages out of escrow and making them effective) while the aircraft is turning around on the ground. One of these things that the vast majority of people don't know but which is routine. And in doing that, you save a ton of money. Which basically means that by-and-large, unfavorable tax laws for airlines/aircraft are futile because transactions are specifically arranged to sidestep such jurisdictions. The asset is mobile, so make sure the asset is in a good jurisdiction when the transaction occurs. Pretty simple.

Denver and/or Colorado at one point charged sales taxes on parts, which meant that airlines systematically avoided doing MX in Denver. The Mayor wanted DEN to be an aerotropolis, and it was gently pointed out that charging sales tax made that idea a non-starter. So that, as I recall, was changed.

DEN is (pre Covid) one of the busiest airports in the world, at least three airlines (F9, WN, UA) should be doing a ton of MX there, plus there are many other carriers that overnight a significant number of aircraft and who could do MX on a systematic or opportunistic basis.

I believe I read recently that WN was starting an MX base in DEN, which makes total sense, but only if there's no sales tax charged on parts. So that would be one downstream benefit of having changed the rules on parts. So now there will be some significant number of MX jobs in DEN that there weren't before. And being a mechanic pays pretty well.
 
Nick614
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Re: Is DL taking delivery of A350’s from NRT to avoid tariffs?

Sun Sep 20, 2020 4:21 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
Nick614 wrote:
0newair0 wrote:

Just to be clear, aircraft going through final assembly in Alabama are not subject to the tariff.


Just to be clear, the only reason final assembly is in Alabama is because of tariffs

No, the FAL in Alabama was originally planned for the KC-X program. Since Airbus needed additional FAL capacity and had already spent money with the study, why not go through with the plan?



See my other comment. They had to spend 600 million for the assembly plant. It's not like it was some infrastructure sitting unused. They knew tariffs were coming and this was their response. There are airbus jobs in Alabama because of tariffs. If there weren't tariffs, there wouldn't be a plant there.
 
ytib
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Re: Is DL taking delivery of A350’s from NRT to avoid tariffs?

Sun Sep 20, 2020 4:26 pm

enplaned wrote:
ytib wrote:
All airlines know how to get around additional taxes. Back in the mid-2000's Frontier wouldn't accept delivery of new aircraft in Denver to avoid around $1.3 million in taxes by the City of Denver. Instead they would put them into service in Phoenix.
https://www.bizjournals.com/denver/stor ... tory4.html


This was still true in 2013. Not sure if the laws have changed on that specific issue.

Airlines and aircraft owners take advantage of tax law differences in all kinds of ways. For instance, if an aircraft that is leased to an airline changes hands, the lessor and the airline will coordinate to ensure the legal transfer happens while the aircraft is on the ground in a good jurisdiction. You will have airline dispatch coordinated with a law firm, a message will go from dispatch to the law firms involved that the aircraft is on the ground in a "good" jurisdiction, and the paperwork will be executed (which means taking pre-signed pages out of escrow and making them effective) while the aircraft is turning around on the ground. One of these things that the vast majority of people don't know but which is routine. And in doing that, you save a ton of money. Which basically means that by-and-large, unfavorable tax laws for airlines/aircraft are futile because transactions are specifically arranged to sidestep such jurisdictions. The asset is mobile, so make sure the asset is in a good jurisdiction when the transaction occurs. Pretty simple.

Denver and/or Colorado at one point charged sales taxes on parts, which meant that airlines systematically avoided doing MX in Denver. The Mayor wanted DEN to be an aerotropolis, and it was gently pointed out that charging sales tax made that idea a non-starter. So that, as I recall, was changed.

DEN is (pre Covid) one of the busiest airports in the world, at least three airlines (F9, WN, UA) should be doing a ton of MX there, plus there are many other carriers that overnight a significant number of aircraft and who could do MX on a systematic or opportunistic basis.

I believe I read recently that WN was starting an MX base in DEN, which makes total sense, but only if there's no sales tax charged on parts. So that would be one downstream benefit of having changed the rules on parts. So now there will be some significant number of MX jobs in DEN that there weren't before. And being a mechanic pays pretty well.


It changed in Denver starting in 2015, but it goes to show the impact of taxes and how companies can navigate so they are not paying more than they need to in taxes or tariffs in the case of Delta.
https://www.denvergov.org/content/dam/d ... rcraft.pdf
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Lootess
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Re: Is DL taking delivery of A350’s from NRT to avoid tariffs?

Sun Sep 20, 2020 6:25 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
Nick614 wrote:
0newair0 wrote:

Just to be clear, aircraft going through final assembly in Alabama are not subject to the tariff.


Just to be clear, the only reason final assembly is in Alabama is because of tariffs

No, the FAL in Alabama was originally planned for the KC-X program. Since Airbus needed additional FAL capacity and had already spent money with the study, why not go through with the plan?


Yep, I think some people don't know Alabama or the south well around here. Considering Lockheed, Briggs & Straton, Hyundai, Honda, and Airbus all manufacture in Alabama. Having more capacity has helped them all become more successful over the years instead of importing everything. Then you go over to South Carolina, aside from Boeing, there is also the Mercedes van factory, and who is one of their largest customers? Amazon.
 
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zkojq
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Re: Is DL taking delivery of A350’s from NRT to avoid tariffs?

Sun Sep 20, 2020 7:30 pm

0newair0 wrote:
These will not. There are also A321s that are not used domestically because of this



Which A321s are those?
First to fly the 787-9
 
0newair0
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Re: Is DL taking delivery of A350’s from NRT to avoid tariffs?

Sun Sep 20, 2020 7:39 pm

zkojq wrote:
0newair0 wrote:
These will not. There are also A321s that are not used domestically because of this



Which A321s are those?
All 321s coming from Hamburg after the import tariff took effect.
That's not how this works! That's not how any of this works!
 
dalmit
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Re: Is DL taking delivery of A350’s from NRT to avoid tariffs?

Sun Sep 20, 2020 9:21 pm

0newair0 wrote:
All 321s coming from Hamburg after the import tariff took effect.


Here is the list of the last 9 deliveries in the chronological delivery order. The lists include their manufacture location and their routing for today (Sunday, 9/20). I guess the tariffs went into effect in October of 2019. As someone mentioned earlier, only 1 frame, 389DN is dedicated to international routes.

N388DN Airbus A321-200 C20Y171 Sep 2019 Hamburg (XFW) 3088 1 Years LAX-MCO
N386DN Airbus A321-200 C20Y171 Oct 2019 Hamburg (XFW) 3086 0.9 Years BOS-ATL-MIA-ATL-PHX
N391DN Airbus A321-200 C20Y171 Dec 2019 Mobile (BFM) 3091 0.8 Years PHX-MSP-SLC
N398DN Airbus A321-200 C20Y171 Jan 2020 Mobile (BFM) 3098 0.7 Years SLC-DTW-SLC-MSP
N101DQ Airbus A321-200 C20Y171 Feb 2020 Mobile (BFM) 1001 0.6 Years LAX-ATL-LAX-SLC-GEG
N389DN Airbus A321-200 C20Y171 Feb 2020 Hamburg (XFW) 3089 0.6 Years ATL-MBJ
N102DN Airbus A321-200 C20Y171 Mar 2020 Mobile (BFM) 1002 0.6 Years DTW-BOS-ATL-STL
N103DY Airbus A321-200 C20Y171 Aug 2020 Mobile (BFM) 1003 0.5 Years Stored
N104DN Airbus A321-200 C20Y171 Aug 2020 Mobile (BFM) 1004 0.3 Years Stored
 
eamondzhang
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Re: Is DL taking delivery of A350’s from NRT to avoid tariffs?

Sun Sep 20, 2020 11:06 pm

Nick614 wrote:
0newair0 wrote:
Nick614 wrote:

Just to be clear, the only reason final assembly is in Alabama is because of tariffs
It may be the reason for the additional 220 line but it is not the reason why the facility exists or why the 320 is also built there.


If there weren't tariffs it wouldn't make financial sense to spend 600 million to build a plant to build 40 a/c per year for US carriers. They would have just made them in Europe or China.

Then explain to me why the plant was there 7 years before the tariff was implemented. And then explain how many planes assembled in TSN was delivered to clients outside of China, and by how many.

Just because you believe xxx does not mean this is how the world operates.

Michael
 
AngMoh
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Re: Is DL taking delivery of A350’s from NRT to avoid tariffs?

Mon Sep 21, 2020 12:19 am

Nick614 wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Nick614 wrote:

Just to be clear, the only reason final assembly is in Alabama is because of tariffs

No, the FAL in Alabama was originally planned for the KC-X program. Since Airbus needed additional FAL capacity and had already spent money with the study, why not go through with the plan?



See my other comment. They had to spend 600 million for the assembly plant. It's not like it was some infrastructure sitting unused. They knew tariffs were coming and this was their response. There are airbus jobs in Alabama because of tariffs. If there weren't tariffs, there wouldn't be a plant there.


At the moment Mobile is the lowest cost A320 production Airbus has. Reason is that salaries are even lower than Tianjin. Not sure if the US should be proud of that. Currency hedging was alos a big deal because USD vs Euro has always been a problem with US sales for Airbus.

They had no ideas about tariffs because they could not have known that the US would elect Trump as president. With any other president there would not have been tariffs because they would have been worried about getting in trouble with big business or be worried about EU retaliation.
727 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739/ER 742 743 744/M 752 753 762 772 77E 773 77W 788 A300 A310 A319 A320 A321 A332 A333 A343 A345 A346 A359 A35K A388 DC-9 DC-10 MD11 MD81 MD82 MD87 F70 ERJ145 E170 E175 E190 E195 ATR72 Q400 CRJ200 CRJ700 CRJ900 BAE146 RJ85
 
Lootess
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Re: Is DL taking delivery of A350’s from NRT to avoid tariffs?

Mon Sep 21, 2020 6:28 am

AngMoh wrote:
Nick614 wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
No, the FAL in Alabama was originally planned for the KC-X program. Since Airbus needed additional FAL capacity and had already spent money with the study, why not go through with the plan?



See my other comment. They had to spend 600 million for the assembly plant. It's not like it was some infrastructure sitting unused. They knew tariffs were coming and this was their response. There are airbus jobs in Alabama because of tariffs. If there weren't tariffs, there wouldn't be a plant there.


At the moment Mobile is the lowest cost A320 production Airbus has. Reason is that salaries are even lower than Tianjin. Not sure if the US should be proud of that. Currency hedging was alos a big deal because USD vs Euro has always been a problem with US sales for Airbus.

They had no ideas about tariffs because they could not have known that the US would elect Trump as president. With any other president there would not have been tariffs because they would have been worried about getting in trouble with big business or be worried about EU retaliation.


Soon the A220 will be built in Mobile too, can't wait for Boeing defenders to come back on that one.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Is DL taking delivery of A350’s from NRT to avoid tariffs?

Mon Sep 21, 2020 6:39 am

Nick614 wrote:
catiii wrote:
Nick614 wrote:

Just to be clear, the only reason final assembly is in Alabama is because of tariffs


Except the Mobile FAL was announced and constructed well before any of the tariffs were even contemplated.

So no, that’s not the only reason.


That is false. WTO proceedings started in 2004 and a decision and appeal process were followed until the appellate decision in May 2011. This found Airbus received subsidies, The US then said they would take up 22.4 concessions, which are tariffs. Airbus then spent 600 million to turn the Mobile facility from a potential KC-30 production site to an A320 assembly site in 2012.

So Airbus knew tariffs were coming.


considering that tariffs due to illegal subsidies for Boeing are expected to follow, and likely higher, i am not sure why anyone would assume a US government in power would be to stupid to let it go with the hope of the EU acts with reciprocity.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
Nick614
Posts: 66
Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2017 10:55 am

Re: Is DL taking delivery of A350’s from NRT to avoid tariffs?

Mon Sep 21, 2020 9:19 am

tommy1808 wrote:
Nick614 wrote:
catiii wrote:

Except the Mobile FAL was announced and constructed well before any of the tariffs were even contemplated.

So no, that’s not the only reason.


That is false. WTO proceedings started in 2004 and a decision and appeal process were followed until the appellate decision in May 2011. This found Airbus received subsidies, The US then said they would take up 22.4 concessions, which are tariffs. Airbus then spent 600 million to turn the Mobile facility from a potential KC-30 production site to an A320 assembly site in 2012.

So Airbus knew tariffs were coming.


considering that tariffs due to illegal subsidies for Boeing are expected to follow, and likely higher, i am not sure why anyone would assume a US government in power would be to stupid to let it go with the hope of the EU acts with reciprocity.

best regards
Thomas



The EU is in big trouble if Trump is re-elected, "trade war" and tariffs will be on par with China. Also it is companies that file these claims, this process started in 2004. That is one reason the US says the WTO is broken, the process takes way too long and only the biggest players can wait out decisions.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 13490
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Is DL taking delivery of A350’s from NRT to avoid tariffs?

Mon Sep 21, 2020 9:28 am

Nick614 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Nick614 wrote:

That is false. WTO proceedings started in 2004 and a decision and appeal process were followed until the appellate decision in May 2011. This found Airbus received subsidies, The US then said they would take up 22.4 concessions, which are tariffs. Airbus then spent 600 million to turn the Mobile facility from a potential KC-30 production site to an A320 assembly site in 2012.

So Airbus knew tariffs were coming.


considering that tariffs due to illegal subsidies for Boeing are expected to follow, and likely higher, i am not sure why anyone would assume a US government in power would be to stupid to let it go with the hope of the EU acts with reciprocity.

best regards
Thomas



The EU is in big trouble if Trump is re-elected, "trade war" and tariffs will be on par with China. Also it is companies that file these claims, this process started in 2004. That is one reason the US says the WTO is broken, the process takes way too long and only the biggest players can wait out decisions.


The US was the driving force setting the WTO up the way it is for the purpose of avoiding the WTO having to rule on everything all the time, but to force countries to iron out differences in a bilateral fashion if near term solutions are preferred, and the panel only being left with the hard cases. It works exactly the way it was intended to work.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
Nick614
Posts: 66
Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2017 10:55 am

Re: Is DL taking delivery of A350’s from NRT to avoid tariffs?

Mon Sep 21, 2020 9:38 am

tommy1808 wrote:
Nick614 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

considering that tariffs due to illegal subsidies for Boeing are expected to follow, and likely higher, i am not sure why anyone would assume a US government in power would be to stupid to let it go with the hope of the EU acts with reciprocity.

best regards
Thomas



The EU is in big trouble if Trump is re-elected, "trade war" and tariffs will be on par with China. Also it is companies that file these claims, this process started in 2004. That is one reason the US says the WTO is broken, the process takes way too long and only the biggest players can wait out decisions.


The US was the driving force setting the WTO up the way it is for the purpose of avoiding the WTO having to rule on everything all the time, but to force countries to iron out differences in a bilateral fashion if near term solutions are preferred, and the panel only being left with the hard cases. It works exactly the way it was intended to work.

best regards
Thomas


In the end it doesn't matter since the US most likely wont be a WTO member by 2025. Pretty much all post war institutions dont work and are outdated. Time for major reform or goodbye to them.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 13490
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Is DL taking delivery of A350’s from NRT to avoid tariffs?

Mon Sep 21, 2020 9:49 am

Nick614 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Nick614 wrote:


The EU is in big trouble if Trump is re-elected, "trade war" and tariffs will be on par with China. Also it is companies that file these claims, this process started in 2004. That is one reason the US says the WTO is broken, the process takes way too long and only the biggest players can wait out decisions.


The US was the driving force setting the WTO up the way it is for the purpose of avoiding the WTO having to rule on everything all the time, but to force countries to iron out differences in a bilateral fashion if near term solutions are preferred, and the panel only being left with the hard cases. It works exactly the way it was intended to work.

best regards
Thomas


In the end it doesn't matter since the US most likely wont be a WTO member by 2025..


yup, the US economy would certainly love to be subject to the maximum tariff in WTO schedules for all its exports.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 1804
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: Is DL taking delivery of A350’s from NRT to avoid tariffs?

Mon Sep 21, 2020 3:13 pm

Nick614 wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Nick614 wrote:

Just to be clear, the only reason final assembly is in Alabama is because of tariffs

No, the FAL in Alabama was originally planned for the KC-X program. Since Airbus needed additional FAL capacity and had already spent money with the study, why not go through with the plan?



See my other comment. They had to spend 600 million for the assembly plant. It's not like it was some infrastructure sitting unused. They knew tariffs were coming and this was their response. There are airbus jobs in Alabama because of tariffs. If there weren't tariffs, there wouldn't be a plant there.

And see everybody else's comments: tariffs might have been one of the reasons, but far from being the only one or the main one.

Let's agree to disagree, and please put that rhetoric to bed.
 
jagraham
Posts: 1131
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2016 11:10 pm

Re: Is DL taking delivery of A350’s from NRT to avoid tariffs?

Mon Sep 21, 2020 3:33 pm

strfyr51 wrote:
jagraham wrote:
I find it fascinating that DL is taking delivery of new aircraft at all.

As for what they do with it, I know DL flew several onward routes from CDG before COVID. So there is something that DL can do with those planes without them touching US soil for a time if that's what is required to avoid the tariff. Otherwise it's pretty confusing . . . but after the auto bailout I wouldn't put anything past a good lawyer.

Isn't this just a business arrangement? Delta is buying them From the original purchaser and Not from the Factory if I understand correctly. Who KNows what arrangement they might have made? Delta is as saavy an airline as there ever WAS.
whatever they're doing? Is sure as Hell in Delta's best interest. On that?? you cab make Book on!!


I agree that whatever DL is doing with those planes is in their best interest. The speculation is why they are doing what they are doing. Assuming they have it so that those A359s don't touch American soil for a period of months. It's got to be something tax related, but I couldn't tell you how that part of tax law works!
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
Posts: 8155
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 11:45 am

Re: Is DL taking delivery of A350’s from NRT to avoid tariffs?

Mon Sep 21, 2020 3:40 pm

DL A339 delivery tomorrow N407DX, TLS-AMS.
 
jagraham
Posts: 1131
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2016 11:10 pm

Re: Is DL taking delivery of A350’s from NRT to avoid tariffs?

Mon Sep 21, 2020 3:47 pm

Lootess wrote:
strfyr51 wrote:
jagraham wrote:
I find it fascinating that DL is taking delivery of new aircraft at all.

As for what they do with it, I know DL flew several onward routes from CDG before COVID. So there is something that DL can do with those planes without them touching US soil for a time if that's what is required to avoid the tariff. Otherwise it's pretty confusing . . . but after the auto bailout I wouldn't put anything past a good lawyer.

Isn't this just a business arrangement? Delta is buying them From the original purchaser and Not from the Factory if I understand correctly. Who KNows what arrangement they might have made? Delta is as saavy an airline as there ever WAS.
whatever they're doing? Is sure as Hell in Delta's best interest. On that?? you cab make Book on!!


Yes, this is the LATAM inherited order. Of course they work with Airbus on basically changing on who gets the bill, interiors options, paint, etc.

Delta's initial A350 order, they would have had the final 10 by this year but they deferred those last ones to 2025-26 with some A339 options when they made the A321 top-up order. The 2019 LATAM deal in a sense covered this gap as the market game has changed since they made that deferral option in 2017. The airline was printing money at-will then, so no reason not to keep taking more A359s and grow the LATAM JV, right?

Remember Delta paid $65m to reject the 4 A359s that were in LATAM's fleet, since they are heavier models. Getting the 280 tonne A359 deliveries had to play a large factor in retiring the 777.


Rejecting the 4 existing LATAM A359s also got some cash to LATAM while DL cannot make cash infusions in the usual fashion.
 
Ziyulu
Posts: 934
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2016 10:35 am

Re: Is DL taking delivery of A350’s from NRT to avoid tariffs?

Mon Sep 21, 2020 4:12 pm

I live in Texas. I bought and registered a car in Oklahoma because the sales tax was lower. Then I transferred it to Texas. Is that wrong?
 
zuckie13
Posts: 313
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:23 pm

Re: Is DL taking delivery of A350’s from NRT to avoid tariffs?

Mon Sep 21, 2020 4:31 pm

Ziyulu wrote:
I live in Texas. I bought and registered a car in Oklahoma because the sales tax was lower. Then I transferred it to Texas. Is that wrong?


"Wrong" - such a subjective word

You did not do anything legally wrong, you operated within the law - just like Delta is here.
Is it morally wrong - that's the subjective part. Should we morally judge you because you gyped your own state out of tax money they wanted you to pay? That's up for each to decide on their own.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 2158
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: Is DL taking delivery of A350’s from NRT to avoid tariffs?

Mon Sep 21, 2020 5:24 pm

Lootess wrote:
AngMoh wrote:
Nick614 wrote:


See my other comment. They had to spend 600 million for the assembly plant. It's not like it was some infrastructure sitting unused. They knew tariffs were coming and this was their response. There are airbus jobs in Alabama because of tariffs. If there weren't tariffs, there wouldn't be a plant there.


At the moment Mobile is the lowest cost A320 production Airbus has. Reason is that salaries are even lower than Tianjin. Not sure if the US should be proud of that. Currency hedging was alos a big deal because USD vs Euro has always been a problem with US sales for Airbus.

They had no ideas about tariffs because they could not have known that the US would elect Trump as president. With any other president there would not have been tariffs because they would have been worried about getting in trouble with big business or be worried about EU retaliation.


Soon the A220 will be built in Mobile too, can't wait for Boeing defenders to come back on that one.

Not built but assembled.
 
strfyr51
Posts: 5033
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:04 pm

Re: Is DL taking delivery of A350’s from NRT to avoid tariffs?

Mon Sep 21, 2020 6:40 pm

Nick614 wrote:
0newair0 wrote:
Nick614 wrote:

Just to be clear, the only reason final assembly is in Alabama is because of tariffs
It may be the reason for the additional 220 line but it is not the reason why the facility exists or why the 320 is also built there.


If there weren't tariffs it wouldn't make financial sense to spend 600 million to build a plant to build 40 a/c per year for US carriers. They would have just made them in Europe or China.

If the President does or does NOT have a "burr under his saddle". Airbus is covering their bets and their Butts! Good Move!
 
strfyr51
Posts: 5033
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:04 pm

Re: Is DL taking delivery of A350’s from NRT to avoid tariffs?

Mon Sep 21, 2020 6:49 pm

zuckie13 wrote:
Ziyulu wrote:
I live in Texas. I bought and registered a car in Oklahoma because the sales tax was lower. Then I transferred it to Texas. Is that wrong?


"Wrong" - such a subjective word

You did not do anything legally wrong, you operated within the law - just like Delta is here.
Is it morally wrong - that's the subjective part. Should we morally judge you because you gyped your own state out of tax money they wanted you to pay? That's up for each to decide on their own.


No matter what anybody says? the Bottom line is? Money is Money! you're in business to make and Keep as much as you can. As Long as it's Legal? And by any means Necessary! I just do not see what the problem is, Delta has US based Techs working on them and that's what's important! My nephew works for Delta and I'd like to see him Prosper and grow as an Aircraft Technician, the Same way I and His Dad did. And? working on Airbus or Boeing Makes no difference. I want him and his company to be KNEE DEEP in work.
 
User avatar
9MMPQ
Posts: 461
Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2011 3:00 pm

Re: Is DL taking delivery of A350’s from NRT to avoid tariffs?

Mon Sep 21, 2020 7:25 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
DL A339 delivery tomorrow N407DX, TLS-AMS.


Said to join up with N515DN already sitting at KLM's hangar 14 for storage until further notice.
I believe in coincidences. Coincidences happen every day. But I don't trust coincidences.
 
Lootess
Posts: 490
Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 6:15 am

Re: Is DL taking delivery of A350’s from NRT to avoid tariffs?

Mon Sep 21, 2020 8:56 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
Lootess wrote:
AngMoh wrote:

At the moment Mobile is the lowest cost A320 production Airbus has. Reason is that salaries are even lower than Tianjin. Not sure if the US should be proud of that. Currency hedging was alos a big deal because USD vs Euro has always been a problem with US sales for Airbus.

They had no ideas about tariffs because they could not have known that the US would elect Trump as president. With any other president there would not have been tariffs because they would have been worried about getting in trouble with big business or be worried about EU retaliation.


Soon the A220 will be built in Mobile too, can't wait for Boeing defenders to come back on that one.

Not built but assembled.


Plane-in-a-box things, final assembly if we want to be exact.
 
Nick614
Posts: 66
Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2017 10:55 am

Re: Is DL taking delivery of A350’s from NRT to avoid tariffs?

Mon Sep 21, 2020 10:27 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
Nick614 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

The US was the driving force setting the WTO up the way it is for the purpose of avoiding the WTO having to rule on everything all the time, but to force countries to iron out differences in a bilateral fashion if near term solutions are preferred, and the panel only being left with the hard cases. It works exactly the way it was intended to work.

best regards
Thomas


In the end it doesn't matter since the US most likely wont be a WTO member by 2025..


yup, the US economy would certainly love to be subject to the maximum tariff in WTO schedules for all its exports.

best regards
Thomas


Except you are forgetting our biggest exports are food and oil which isn't easily replaced by another source. Also when you have a trade deficit you can't lose!
 
dalmit
Posts: 18
Joined: Sat Aug 22, 2020 1:25 pm

Re: Is DL taking delivery of A350’s from NRT to avoid tariffs?

Mon Sep 21, 2020 10:32 pm

zuckie13 wrote:
Ziyulu wrote:
I live in Texas. I bought and registered a car in Oklahoma because the sales tax was lower. Then I transferred it to Texas. Is that wrong?


"Wrong" - such a subjective word

You did not do anything legally wrong, you operated within the law - just like Delta is here.
Is it morally wrong - that's the subjective part. Should we morally judge you because you gyped your own state out of tax money they wanted you to pay? That's up for each to decide on their own.


I think buying the car in Oklahoma is legal but registering it there instead of your home state of Texas is most likely illegal. And therefore wrong.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 6262
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Is DL taking delivery of A350’s from NRT to avoid tariffs?

Mon Sep 21, 2020 11:04 pm

It transferred it to Texas, so no not wrong.
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 1804
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: Is DL taking delivery of A350’s from NRT to avoid tariffs?

Mon Sep 21, 2020 11:33 pm

Nick614 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Nick614 wrote:

In the end it doesn't matter since the US most likely wont be a WTO member by 2025..


yup, the US economy would certainly love to be subject to the maximum tariff in WTO schedules for all its exports.

best regards
Thomas


Except you are forgetting our biggest exports are food and oil which isn't easily replaced by another source. Also when you have a trade deficit you can't lose!

And you're forgetting that a lot of that oil is more expensive to produce than the one in the Middle East; and that a lot of food export is part of bilateral trade agreements, which would be buried deep if/when a POTUS start tariffing Europe to the max.
Do not underestimate the power of the world outside the US if/when a POTUS decides to get every country against the US; the biggest losers will be the US producers and residents.

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