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764
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WestJet 328 YYZ to YYT on its way back to YYZ?

Sat Sep 19, 2020 3:38 am

Anybody know what's going on with Westjet 328? It seems to have flown from YYZ all the way to YYT, but instead of landing there it's on its way back to YYZ. Seems they flew a few 360's at low altitude off the coast at YYT and then headed back.

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/WJA328
 
Whiteguy
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Re: WestJet 328 YYZ to YYT on its way back to YYZ?

Sat Sep 19, 2020 4:13 am

764 wrote:
Anybody know what's going on with Westjet 328? It seems to have flown from YYZ all the way to YYT, but instead of landing there it's on its way back to YYZ. Seems they flew a few 360's at low altitude off the coast at YYT and then headed back.

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/WJA328


Wind, rain and overcast probably all contributing to landing limits being exceeded....
 
dmanonice
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Re: WestJet 328 YYZ to YYT on its way back to YYZ?

Sat Sep 19, 2020 4:51 am

Whiteguy wrote:
764 wrote:
Anybody know what's going on with Westjet 328? It seems to have flown from YYZ all the way to YYT, but instead of landing there it's on its way back to YYZ. Seems they flew a few 360's at low altitude off the coast at YYT and then headed back.

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/WJA328


Wind, rain and overcast probably all contributing to landing limits being exceeded....


Diverting back to YYZ unable to land in YYT due to weather and will be cancelled on arrival to YYZ.
Mike
 
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ACCS300
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Re: WestJet 328 YYZ to YYT on its way back to YYZ?

Sat Sep 19, 2020 10:23 am

I guess the option to divert to YHZ wasn't there due to the "Atlantic Bubble'. Anyone arriving in Nova Scotia must quarantine for 14 days, restrictions are higher in NB. They could have flown to YUL but at that point you may as well go back to YYZ.
 
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AC_B777
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Re: WestJet 328 YYZ to YYT on its way back to YYZ?

Sat Sep 19, 2020 12:36 pm

We had wind and light rain here in YYT last night, but it certainly wasn't outside crosswind limits. The wind was from a SSW direction 38km/h gusting to 59, which favored runway 29 with about a 20 degree crosswind, again, nothing major, certainly nothing a properly trained Canadian pilot couldn't handle.
I was working last night and I had a couple of other airport employees ask me why WS cancelled because 5 minutes before WS328 was supposed to land, I had our Jazz flight (QK8018) a CR9 land in the same conditions without any issues and we had another Jazz flight a couple of hours earlier with a Q400 land in similar conditions as well as a few PAL Airlines Dash 8's.
In life, some days you are the bug..... some days you are the windshield!
 
cylw
Posts: 433
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Re: WestJet 328 YYZ to YYT on its way back to YYZ?

Sat Sep 19, 2020 3:08 pm

AC_B777 wrote:
We had wind and light rain here in YYT last night, but it certainly wasn't outside crosswind limits. The wind was from a SSW direction 38km/h gusting to 59, which favored runway 29 with about a 20 degree crosswind, again, nothing major, certainly nothing a properly trained Canadian pilot couldn't handle.
I was working last night and I had a couple of other airport employees ask me why WS cancelled because 5 minutes before WS328 was supposed to land, I had our Jazz flight (QK8018) a CR9 land in the same conditions without any issues and we had another Jazz flight a couple of hours earlier with a Q400 land in similar conditions as well as a few PAL Airlines Dash 8's.


METARs for that time show a different story. 66 degree crosswind for Rwy 29 and gusts to 31-32kts with rain.

I hope you realize that different operators may have different limits for the same aircraft type let alone different types like in your anecdote.

Should this crew have busted the recommended limits to try and land anyways??

CYYT 190100Z 20021G32KT 15SM -RA OVC004 16/16 A2992 RMK SF8 SLP135 DENSITY ALT 800FT
CYYT 190000Z 20023G31KT 15SM -RA OVC004 16/16 A2995 RMK SF8 PRESFR SLP145 DENSITY ALT 700FT
 
Whiteguy
Posts: 1548
Joined: Sat Nov 29, 2003 6:11 am

Re: WestJet 328 YYZ to YYT on its way back to YYZ?

Sat Sep 19, 2020 3:54 pm

AC_B777 wrote:
We had wind and light rain here in YYT last night, but it certainly wasn't outside crosswind limits. The wind was from a SSW direction 38km/h gusting to 59, which favored runway 29 with about a 20 degree crosswind, again, nothing major, certainly nothing a properly trained Canadian pilot couldn't handle.
I was working last night and I had a couple of other airport employees ask me why WS cancelled because 5 minutes before WS328 was supposed to land, I had our Jazz flight (QK8018) a CR9 land in the same conditions without any issues and we had another Jazz flight a couple of hours earlier with a Q400 land in similar conditions as well as a few PAL Airlines Dash 8's.


The “properly trained Canadian crew” made a decision based on the weather and aircraft/company limitations. As pointed out different aircraft and different company’s have different limitations.
 
Whiteguy
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Re: WestJet 328 YYZ to YYT on its way back to YYZ?

Sat Sep 19, 2020 3:56 pm

ACCS300 wrote:
I guess the option to divert to YHZ wasn't there due to the "Atlantic Bubble'. Anyone arriving in Nova Scotia must quarantine for 14 days, restrictions are higher in NB. They could have flown to YUL but at that point you may as well go back to YYZ.


With the reduced schedule there are also limited options for replacement crews and/or aircraft at other stations. YYZ is often used as an alternate for operational reasons.
 
ac190
Posts: 32
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2011 3:12 pm

Re: WestJet 328 YYZ to YYT on its way back to YYZ?

Sat Sep 19, 2020 5:03 pm

Whiteguy wrote:
AC_B777 wrote:
We had wind and light rain here in YYT last night, but it certainly wasn't outside crosswind limits. The wind was from a SSW direction 38km/h gusting to 59, which favored runway 29 with about a 20 degree crosswind, again, nothing major, certainly nothing a properly trained Canadian pilot couldn't handle.
I was working last night and I had a couple of other airport employees ask me why WS cancelled because 5 minutes before WS328 was supposed to land, I had our Jazz flight (QK8018) a CR9 land in the same conditions without any issues and we had another Jazz flight a couple of hours earlier with a Q400 land in similar conditions as well as a few PAL Airlines Dash 8's.


The “properly trained Canadian crew” made a decision based on the weather and aircraft/company limitations. As pointed out different aircraft and different company’s have different limitations.


Just like the "properly trained Canadian crew" decided to land a full B738 on a contaminated runway with a tailwind component that exceeds the aircraft and company limitations back in January? Yeah, even had our own pilots questions that one.

http://avherald.com/h?article=4d192a80&opt=0

Like dmanonice said, It was above limits and went back to YYZ (As per the Ops email).

YHZ is not to be used as an alternate for anything more than a gas and go since no staff (except the station manager) are available outside of the normal flight times (0430-730/1100-1400/1600-1900). Due to the lay offs no agents/staff will come in outside of their scheduled times. Obviously if it was an emergency things change and the station manager will have to do.
 
Whiteguy
Posts: 1548
Joined: Sat Nov 29, 2003 6:11 am

Re: WestJet 328 YYZ to YYT on its way back to YYZ?

Sat Sep 19, 2020 6:38 pm

ac190 wrote:
Whiteguy wrote:
AC_B777 wrote:
We had wind and light rain here in YYT last night, but it certainly wasn't outside crosswind limits. The wind was from a SSW direction 38km/h gusting to 59, which favored runway 29 with about a 20 degree crosswind, again, nothing major, certainly nothing a properly trained Canadian pilot couldn't handle.
I was working last night and I had a couple of other airport employees ask me why WS cancelled because 5 minutes before WS328 was supposed to land, I had our Jazz flight (QK8018) a CR9 land in the same conditions without any issues and we had another Jazz flight a couple of hours earlier with a Q400 land in similar conditions as well as a few PAL Airlines Dash 8's.


The “properly trained Canadian crew” made a decision based on the weather and aircraft/company limitations. As pointed out different aircraft and different company’s have different limitations.


Just like the "properly trained Canadian crew" decided to land a full B738 on a contaminated runway with a tailwind component that exceeds the aircraft and company limitations back in January? Yeah, even had our own pilots questions that one.

http://avherald.com/h?article=4d192a80&opt=0

Like dmanonice said, It was above limits and went back to YYZ (As per the Ops email).

YHZ is not to be used as an alternate for anything more than a gas and go since no staff (except the station manager) are available outside of the normal flight times (0430-730/1100-1400/1600-1900). Due to the lay offs no agents/staff will come in outside of their scheduled times. Obviously if it was an emergency things change and the station manager will have to do.


And the crews decision to divert is still being questioned? Typical
 
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AC_B777
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Re: WestJet 328 YYZ to YYT on its way back to YYZ?

Sat Sep 19, 2020 7:33 pm

METARs for that time show a different story. 66 degree crosswind for Rwy 29 and gusts to 31-32kts with rain.

I hope you realize that different operators may have different limits for the same aircraft type let alone different types like in your anecdote.

Should this crew have busted the recommended limits to try and land anyways??

I am very well aware that there different limits for different a/c and operators, I am also very much aware that the 737 has higher limitations than the CR9 does and that the weather conditions that were happening at the time are very common for YYT and I have seen many 737's operated by WS, AC and other airlines land in much higher winds and worse precipitation. The crew obviously did what they thought was best, and I didn't mean to knock them for that, it's just very surprising that they didn't land when multiple smaller a/c landed shortly before and after they were scheduled to land.
In life, some days you are the bug..... some days you are the windshield!
 
ac190
Posts: 32
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2011 3:12 pm

Re: WestJet 328 YYZ to YYT on its way back to YYZ?

Sat Sep 19, 2020 7:42 pm

Whiteguy wrote:
ac190 wrote:
Whiteguy wrote:

The “properly trained Canadian crew” made a decision based on the weather and aircraft/company limitations. As pointed out different aircraft and different company’s have different limitations.


Just like the "properly trained Canadian crew" decided to land a full B738 on a contaminated runway with a tailwind component that exceeds the aircraft and company limitations back in January? Yeah, even had our own pilots questions that one.

http://avherald.com/h?article=4d192a80&opt=0

Like dmanonice said, It was above limits and went back to YYZ (As per the Ops email).

YHZ is not to be used as an alternate for anything more than a gas and go since no staff (except the station manager) are available outside of the normal flight times (0430-730/1100-1400/1600-1900). Due to the lay offs no agents/staff will come in outside of their scheduled times. Obviously if it was an emergency things change and the station manager will have to do.


And the crews decision to divert is still being questioned? Typical


I don't question the crews decision to divert, but don't pull the "properly trained" card. WS248 had a "properly trained Canadian crew" and well, he made a decision to break the aircraft AND company limitations.

Listening to the ATC conversation it seemed like the 328 crew needed gusts below 30kts.
 
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AC_B777
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Re: WestJet 328 YYZ to YYT on its way back to YYZ?

Sat Sep 19, 2020 7:55 pm

Whiteguy wrote:
AC_B777 wrote:
We had wind and light rain here in YYT last night, but it certainly wasn't outside crosswind limits. The wind was from a SSW direction 38km/h gusting to 59, which favored runway 29 with about a 20 degree crosswind, again, nothing major, certainly nothing a properly trained Canadian pilot couldn't handle.
I was working last night and I had a couple of other airport employees ask me why WS cancelled because 5 minutes before WS328 was supposed to land, I had our Jazz flight (QK8018) a CR9 land in the same conditions without any issues and we had another Jazz flight a couple of hours earlier with a Q400 land in similar conditions as well as a few PAL Airlines Dash 8's.


The “properly trained Canadian crew” made a decision based on the weather and aircraft/company limitations. As pointed out different aircraft and different company’s have different limitations.


I apologize for my improper phrasing and wording of it and I'm sorry that it offended you. I guess I didn't realize how sensitive people could be.
I am well aware of different limitations based on operator and a/c type. I am also aware that the 737 can usually handle winds and crosswinds better than a CRJ. Am I knocking the crew for doing what they did? No, not intentionally. Kudos to them for doing what they thought was best! Many employees just found it strange that they didn't land when multiple smaller a/c had landed around the same time or shortly after the WS flight was supposed to land.
I have seen WS and AC pilots land in much worse wind/crosswind and precipitation conditions than what we experienced in YYT last night. It really wasn't that bad! Pretty typical for YYT actually.
In life, some days you are the bug..... some days you are the windshield!
 
Whiteguy
Posts: 1548
Joined: Sat Nov 29, 2003 6:11 am

Re: WestJet 328 YYZ to YYT on its way back to YYZ?

Sat Sep 19, 2020 10:01 pm

ac190 wrote:
Whiteguy wrote:
ac190 wrote:

Just like the "properly trained Canadian crew" decided to land a full B738 on a contaminated runway with a tailwind component that exceeds the aircraft and company limitations back in January? Yeah, even had our own pilots questions that one.

http://avherald.com/h?article=4d192a80&opt=0

Like dmanonice said, It was above limits and went back to YYZ (As per the Ops email).

YHZ is not to be used as an alternate for anything more than a gas and go since no staff (except the station manager) are available outside of the normal flight times (0430-730/1100-1400/1600-1900). Due to the lay offs no agents/staff will come in outside of their scheduled times. Obviously if it was an emergency things change and the station manager will have to do.


And the crews decision to divert is still being questioned? Typical


I don't question the crews decision to divert, but don't pull the "properly trained" card. WS248 had a "properly trained Canadian crew" and well, he made a decision to break the aircraft AND company limitations.

Listening to the ATC conversation it seemed like the 328 crew needed gusts below 30kts.


I wasn’t pulling the “properly trained” card, it was in response to the previous post suggesting the crew wasn’t properly trained....
 
764
Topic Author
Posts: 507
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2001 6:34 pm

Re: WestJet 328 YYZ to YYT on its way back to YYZ?

Sun Sep 20, 2020 12:07 am

Getting back to the topic, do they routinely carry that much extra fuel on these flights? I mean, 1300 miles is a long way to go to an alternate airport and the cost of carrying an extra 4.5 tons or so can't be cheap.
 
bluecrew
Posts: 40
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Re: WestJet 328 YYZ to YYT on its way back to YYZ?

Sun Sep 20, 2020 10:49 am

AC_B777 wrote:
Whiteguy wrote:
AC_B777 wrote:
We had wind and light rain here in YYT last night, but it certainly wasn't outside crosswind limits. The wind was from a SSW direction 38km/h gusting to 59, which favored runway 29 with about a 20 degree crosswind, again, nothing major, certainly nothing a properly trained Canadian pilot couldn't handle.
I was working last night and I had a couple of other airport employees ask me why WS cancelled because 5 minutes before WS328 was supposed to land, I had our Jazz flight (QK8018) a CR9 land in the same conditions without any issues and we had another Jazz flight a couple of hours earlier with a Q400 land in similar conditions as well as a few PAL Airlines Dash 8's.


The “properly trained Canadian crew” made a decision based on the weather and aircraft/company limitations. As pointed out different aircraft and different company’s have different limitations.


I apologize for my improper phrasing and wording of it and I'm sorry that it offended you. I guess I didn't realize how sensitive people could be.
I am well aware of different limitations based on operator and a/c type. I am also aware that the 737 can usually handle winds and crosswinds better than a CRJ. Am I knocking the crew for doing what they did? No, not intentionally. Kudos to them for doing what they thought was best! Many employees just found it strange that they didn't land when multiple smaller a/c had landed around the same time or shortly after the WS flight was supposed to land.
I have seen WS and AC pilots land in much worse wind/crosswind and precipitation conditions than what we experienced in YYT last night. It really wasn't that bad! Pretty typical for YYT actually.

Sounds like the Jazz crew mighta broken opspec. :boggled:

Size of an airplane doesn't matter. If you can't land because the figures in the book say you can't, then you can't. And when you do because it's "not that bad," and the company finds out, you are fired and essentially blacklisted (in the US at least) under PRIA. Sure, the airline might not figure it out, but they have people who do this stuff for a living. And what's to stop your FO from saying "mmm... nah that was some pretty messed up stuff back there" and filing a report.

Are there dumb limitations in manuals sometimes? Yes, often. Sometimes they come from the manufacturer, sometimes they come from the "brain trust" in management/flight standards, sometimes they come from your regulator. Can you ignore them? Absolutely not. Yes the plane might be fine, yes you might know it will be fine, but the second you violate anything in the book, your entire career is in jeopardy.

Can't tell you how many people I know of who have lost their jobs over stupid stuff, and it mostly comes down to "you knew this was in the manual, and you did *xyz* instead."

Not saying this is exactly what happened, but my perspective on this is if the book says no, you must say NO.

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