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xjetflyer2001
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Rossiya Airlines acquiring 7 of BA’s 747-400’s

Sun Sep 20, 2020 2:34 pm

Previous post appears to have been
deleted, not sure why. But here’s link

All 7 G-BYG* now confirmed sold - rumors was correct https://airwaysmag.com/airlines/rossiya ... D-ylxhV4Uk

One G-BYGC is the BOAC retro 747
 
LebedevXD
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Re: Rossiya Airlines acquiring 7 of BA’s 747-400’s

Sun Sep 20, 2020 2:50 pm

This is a sort of bad joke from aviation-related media, I'm afraid. Back in March Rossiya announced in a reply to Air Transport Observation that all of its Boeing 747s are planned to be retired in 2024. This reply was posted here: http://www.ato.ru/ato-telegraph (its a newsfeed, so sorry, no direct link; search for March entries).
Besides, Rossiya mostly operates Boeing 747s that are powered with General Electric engines (8 out of 9), while 747s of British Airways are, obviously, Rolls-Royce powered.
 
A388
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Re: Rossiya Airlines acquiring 7 of BA’s 747-400’s

Sun Sep 20, 2020 2:56 pm

It does sound very strange that an airline nowadays would take 747-400s over 777-300ER's which are also coming available on the secondhand market so I feel this news indeed is incorrect.

Rossiya already has the 777-300ER in its fleet which is more efficient vs the 747-400.

A388
 
sxf24
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Re: Rossiya Airlines acquiring 7 of BA’s 747-400’s

Sun Sep 20, 2020 3:09 pm

A388 wrote:
It does sound very strange that an airline nowadays would take 747-400s over 777-300ER's which are also coming available on the secondhand market so I feel this news indeed is incorrect.

Rossiya already has the 777-300ER in its fleet which is more efficient vs the 747-400.

A388


There are very few 777-300ER for sale; what’s being remarketed is from lessors. Rossiya may prefer to own and certainly gets a lower cost engine program with the 747.
 
B-HOP
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Re: Rossiya Airlines acquiring 7 of BA’s 747-400’s

Sun Sep 20, 2020 4:59 pm

I think the reason is the GE engine gung on those 747 worth more than the aircraft itself (for 767 F converisons) and ex JL are likely to be slightly order or with more cycles, BA's 744 are almost exclusively long haul, whilst JL also uses them regionally or even domestically, they are well maintained and RB211 are dirt cheap in the second hand market.
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x1234
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Re: Rossiya Airlines acquiring 7 of BA’s 747-400’s

Sun Sep 20, 2020 5:18 pm

Rossiya's B777-300ER is ex-EK. I can't believe that can't get more B77W's? The B744 is ONLY profitable if you can fill it to 95% as DL has found out.
 
Angelovo
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Re: Rossiya Airlines acquiring 7 of BA’s 747-400’s

Sun Sep 20, 2020 5:30 pm

B-HOP wrote:
I think the reason is the GE engine gung on those 747 worth more than the aircraft itself (for 767 F converisons) and ex JL are likely to be slightly order or with more cycles, BA's 744 are almost exclusively long haul, whilst JL also uses them regionally or even domestically, they are well maintained and RB211 are dirt cheap in the second hand market.


So, you believe the BA 744’s are to replace the existing ex JAL and SIA birds?
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petertenthije
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Re: Rossiya Airlines acquiring 7 of BA’s 747-400’s

Sun Sep 20, 2020 5:33 pm

Has it been confirmed that Rossiya intends to use them to fly with? They might have bought them as a source of replacement parts for their current fleet. Buying a fleet of disused 747s might be cheaper then buying individual parts on a as-needed basis.

Although I don't think the engines are the same, there must still be a lot of components that could be valuable.
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32andBelow
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Re: Rossiya Airlines acquiring 7 of BA’s 747-400’s

Sun Sep 20, 2020 5:50 pm

petertenthije wrote:
Has it been confirmed that Rossiya intends to use them to fly with? They might have bought them as a source of replacement parts for their current fleet. Buying a fleet of disused 747s might be cheaper then buying individual parts on a as-needed basis.

Although I don't think the engines are the same, there must still be a lot of components that could be valuable.

Buying 7 would be a lot for parts. That’s 28 engines
 
MikeyESSA
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Re: Rossiya Airlines acquiring 7 of BA’s 747-400’s

Sun Sep 20, 2020 6:32 pm

I can very well image Rossiya putting the planes into service. Russia has nearly 150 milllion residents, and they're not going to stop travel just because most of the international traffic has come to a halt. Instead, the demand will move to domestic holiday destinations where they are already using 747's, and so more planes won't be a problem to fill. After all, fuel is extremely cheap right now, the planes are extremely cheap (Likely sold for not much more than scrap value), perfect service records and since BA had originally planned to keep them for a few years - they are probably not even facing any major overhauls or checks in the near future.

It's not a long term plan, but it'll probably work well for the time being. Just fill the planes with russian holidaymakers and fly while you can. Once the oil prices start rising again and the planes are nearing their major overhauls in a couple of years they would have had time to find a long term replacement.
Last edited by MikeyESSA on Sun Sep 20, 2020 6:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
raylee67
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Re: Rossiya Airlines acquiring 7 of BA’s 747-400’s

Sun Sep 20, 2020 6:33 pm

x1234 wrote:
Rossiya's B777-300ER is ex-EK. I can't believe that can't get more B77W's? The B744 is ONLY profitable if you can fill it to 95% as DL has found out.

Strange... NW certainly did not need a 95% load factor when it was operating those same 744s as DL. While the 744 is less efficient than 77W, the relative competitiveness shouldn't make the same aircraft requiring a higher load factor to be profitable than 10 years ago?

In any case, Rossiya's business model is very different from DL. First, it puts 537 seats in its existing 744s while DL's has about 400 seats. It flies them to vacation destinations rather than business destinations. Rossiya's cost structure is a lot lower too probably since it most likely pays much less to its crew, flight attendants and office staff than Delta. We don't know how much it pays for fuel too. It may not be paying market price in Russia.
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behramjee
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Re: Rossiya Airlines acquiring 7 of BA’s 747-400’s

Sun Sep 20, 2020 6:34 pm

If they have been bought for use in commercial service, there will be a size able investment required to refit the cabin of all 7 B744s into a more high density layout better suited for the airline's long haul leisure market routes.
 
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FLALEFTY
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Re: Rossiya Airlines acquiring 7 of BA’s 747-400’s

Sun Sep 20, 2020 6:34 pm

petertenthije wrote:
Has it been confirmed that Rossiya intends to use them to fly with? They might have bought them as a source of replacement parts for their current fleet. Buying a fleet of disused 747s might be cheaper then buying individual parts on a as-needed basis.

Although I don't think the engines are the same, there must still be a lot of components that could be valuable.


I was thinking the same thing. These BA B744's were very well-maintained birds and Rossiya is probably getting them for just above scrap value. This deal may also include some of BA's B744 replacement parts inventory. I imagine that a portion of the 7 will be used for services and a smaller portion will be used for parts.
 
Antarius
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Re: Rossiya Airlines acquiring 7 of BA’s 747-400’s

Sun Sep 20, 2020 9:31 pm

I am excited to hear this. Rossiya's 747s are gorgeous, so the more they have the better.
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debonair
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Re: Rossiya Airlines acquiring 7 of BA’s 747-400’s

Sun Sep 20, 2020 10:53 pm

Rossiya already operate 9 B747-400, what's there current status during COVID19?
 
eamondzhang
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Re: Rossiya Airlines acquiring 7 of BA’s 747-400’s

Sun Sep 20, 2020 11:02 pm

B-HOP wrote:
I think the reason is the GE engine gung on those 747 worth more than the aircraft itself (for 767 F converisons) and ex JL are likely to be slightly order or with more cycles, BA's 744 are almost exclusively long haul, whilst JL also uses them regionally or even domestically, they are well maintained and RB211 are dirt cheap in the second hand market.

JL does not abuse intl 744s on domestic - it's 744Ds territory and those were all scrapped already.

Besides JL actually has quite a low utilisation rate for their 744 fleet when retired - so it won't surprise me if those ones actually ended up having lower cycles/hours than BA ones.

x1234 wrote:
Rossiya's B777-300ER is ex-EK. I can't believe that can't get more B77W's? The B744 is ONLY profitable if you can fill it to 95% as DL has found out.

DL might need to fill 95% to be profitable but not all other airlines since they all have different cost structure and Rossiya is more likely to have a far lower labour cost than DL.

Michael
 
peterinlisbon
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Re: Rossiya Airlines acquiring 7 of BA’s 747-400’s

Sun Sep 20, 2020 11:21 pm

A388 wrote:
It does sound very strange that an airline nowadays would take 747-400s over 777-300ER's which are also coming available on the secondhand market so I feel this news indeed is incorrect.

Rossiya already has the 777-300ER in its fleet which is more efficient vs the 747-400.

A388


The oil price is 40$ per barrel. A 777-300ER costs 600,000$ per month to lease. A 747-400 may be more efficient in terms of total cost at the moment depending on how much you use it.
 
787SIN
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Re: Rossiya Airlines acquiring 7 of BA’s 747-400’s

Sun Sep 20, 2020 11:31 pm

Probably a nice little investment for Rossiya as they may have got them for not much more than the book value of the engines.

Plus the cabins on these BYG series aircraft were re-fitted only in the last five years and can probably densify them relatively cheaply by obtaining seat sets out of the other re-fitted BA aircraft that are being parted out.

If the BYG series which all of are of similar age have had fairly recent D Checks and gear overhauls, they’ll be good with lowish maintenance costs for the next 3-4 years.

The only downside might be and correct me if I am wrong but these BYG series aircraft were considered the lites as had different structural weights and no HST tank. So maximum range is affected.
 
aamd11
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Re: Rossiya Airlines acquiring 7 of BA’s 747-400’s

Mon Sep 21, 2020 12:23 am

787SIN wrote:
The only downside might be and correct me if I am wrong but these BYG series aircraft were considered the lites as had different structural weights and no HST tank. So maximum range is affected.

The BYG* series were delivered as full standard 744s..

The Lite aircraft were CIVF/G/H/I if I'm not mistaken.
 
CX747
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Re: Rossiya Airlines acquiring 7 of BA’s 747-400’s

Mon Sep 21, 2020 12:25 am

A good pick up for Rossiya. Expansion of an already operated type, that has excellent capabilities. It is plug and play for them. A 747 is not as efficient as a 77W but has a heck of smaller monthly lease payment. With fuel being dirt cheap, a very smart pickup and good thought process put into action.
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smi0006
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Re: Rossiya Airlines acquiring 7 of BA’s 747-400’s

Mon Sep 21, 2020 12:53 am

Where do they currently fly their 744? Given the size and terrain challenges high density domestic flying in Russia does make sense!

As part of the Aeroflot group, is Rossiya more an LCC or charter operation?
 
Antarius
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Re: Rossiya Airlines acquiring 7 of BA’s 747-400’s

Mon Sep 21, 2020 1:00 am

smi0006 wrote:
Where do they currently fly their 744? Given the size and terrain challenges high density domestic flying in Russia does make sense!

As part of the Aeroflot group, is Rossiya more an LCC or charter operation?


Rossiya doesn't just fly domestically. They also fly scheduled services to vacation destinations, European cities etc.
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smartplane
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Re: Rossiya Airlines acquiring 7 of BA’s 747-400’s

Mon Sep 21, 2020 1:13 am

Would these aircraft have had the fuel tank inerting mod completed?
 
dcajet
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Re: Rossiya Airlines acquiring 7 of BA’s 747-400’s

Mon Sep 21, 2020 1:41 am

smartplane wrote:
Would these aircraft have had the fuel tank inerting mod completed?


Unless BA was operating them under some sort of waiver, they should. It was due years ago.

https://www.faa.gov/documentlibrary/med ... 981-2a.pdf
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filipinoavgeek
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Re: Rossiya Airlines acquiring 7 of BA’s 747-400’s

Mon Sep 21, 2020 2:12 am

I thought Rossiya was planning to transition to having a mostly all-Russian fleet at some point?

I do find it funny if a bit sad that the BA 747s have already found a new home, while it's unlikely that any A380 being retired now will ever find a second operator, and while it's unlikely that all retired 747s will avoid the scrappers, even in this aviation downturn it seems that the 747 still has a brighter future than the A380 even if it's mostly in niche applications or as a freighter.
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Mystic
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Re: Rossiya Airlines acquiring 7 of BA’s 747-400’s

Mon Sep 21, 2020 2:14 am

smi0006 wrote:
Where do they currently fly their 744? Given the size and terrain challenges high density domestic flying in Russia does make sense!

As part of the Aeroflot group, is Rossiya more an LCC or charter operation?


EI-XLG just landed at AYT. They come atleast twice a day maybe more.
 
Gemuser
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Re: Rossiya Airlines acquiring 7 of BA’s 747-400’s

Mon Sep 21, 2020 2:52 am

dcajet wrote:
smartplane wrote:
Would these aircraft have had the fuel tank inerting mod completed?


Unless BA was operating them under some sort of waiver, they should. It was due years ago.

https://www.faa.gov/documentlibrary/med ... 981-2a.pdf

It is also possible that the UK CAA did not make that requirement applicable to BA or certain of their B747s slated for retirement. Each National Airworthiness authority does their own thing, usually but not necessarily, at the edge, I grant you.

Gemuser
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Rossiya Airlines acquiring 7 of BA’s 747-400’s

Mon Sep 21, 2020 3:09 am

Rossiya likely would need the capacity on trunk domestic routes, especially if Aeroflot will be used mostly on international routes. The Rossiya B744s are ex-Transaero. Unlike the USA, it's capacity over frequency.
 
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leleko747
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Re: Rossiya Airlines acquiring 7 of BA’s 747-400’s

Mon Sep 21, 2020 3:10 am

This is FANTASTIC news for 747 fans! Really hope to be able to catch a flight on these beautiful Rossiya Jumbos!
I wonder when people will understand:
Embraer 190 or simply E190, not ERJ-190. E-Jets are NOT ERJs!
Boeing 747-8, not Boeing 747-800. Same goes for 787.
Airbus A320, not Airbus 320.
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WayexTDI
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Re: Rossiya Airlines acquiring 7 of BA’s 747-400’s

Mon Sep 21, 2020 3:10 pm

x1234 wrote:
Rossiya's B777-300ER is ex-EK. I can't believe that can't get more B77W's? The B744 is ONLY profitable if you can fill it to 95% as DL has found out.

DL retired the 747 for several reasons, one being that it needed the Fuel Inerting System installed; and DL decided it was not worth it.
 
Ishrion
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Re: Rossiya Airlines acquiring 7 of BA’s 747-400’s

Mon Sep 21, 2020 3:13 pm

The AirwaysMag source has been deleted.

According to some spokesperson for Rossiya or British Airways, this isn't happening. But of course, spokespersons can decline to reveal anything that's not officially public yet.
 
Danhill1905
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Re: Rossiya Airlines acquiring 7 of BA’s 747-400’s

Mon Sep 21, 2020 3:38 pm

I’ve been told this is ‘fake news’
 
drdisque
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Re: Rossiya Airlines acquiring 7 of BA’s 747-400’s

Mon Sep 21, 2020 3:48 pm

raylee67 wrote:
x1234 wrote:
Rossiya's B777-300ER is ex-EK. I can't believe that can't get more B77W's? The B744 is ONLY profitable if you can fill it to 95% as DL has found out.

Strange... NW certainly did not need a 95% load factor when it was operating those same 744s as DL. While the 744 is less efficient than 77W, the relative competitiveness shouldn't make the same aircraft requiring a higher load factor to be profitable than 10 years ago?

In any case, Rossiya's business model is very different from DL. First, it puts 537 seats in its existing 744s while DL's has about 400 seats. It flies them to vacation destinations rather than business destinations. Rossiya's cost structure is a lot lower too probably since it most likely pays much less to its crew, flight attendants and office staff than Delta. We don't know how much it pays for fuel too. It may not be paying market price in Russia.


NW operated the 744 in a very different environment where there was much less capacity to Asia from the US and where operating their hub at NRT was viable. That's why they didn't need to fill them. Internally, NW were pissed that they had to fly so many seats in the off-season and that the yields were "trash" and yield was very difficult to manage off-season because demand was so low. They were very eager to get the 787 as they felt that better matched the capacity they wanted to put into the market. They didn't want to order the 777 as they felt it was "old technology" by the time that the need arose in the mid 2000's.

This desire to reduce capacity in these long-haul markets was initially also why NW placed an A340 order but ultimately deferred and turned them into A330s because the DC-10s were in more dire need of replacement and at the time NW couldn't afford to replace both the 744 and DC-10 fleets and knew that something better than the A340 would come along that fit their needs.

Obviously, DL, as a bigger carrier, felt that the A350 was a better fit for their operation and canceled the 787 order.
 
xjetflyer2001
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Re: Rossiya Airlines acquiring 7 of BA’s 747-400’s

Mon Sep 21, 2020 3:50 pm

https://samchui.com/2020/09/21/rossiya- ... ways-b747/

Looking more and more like fake news

Well that’s unfortunate, like a poster said earlier, the more 747’s in Rossiya colors, the better
 
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leleko747
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Re: Rossiya Airlines acquiring 7 of BA’s 747-400’s

Mon Sep 21, 2020 4:13 pm

It was too good to be true :(
I wonder when people will understand:
Embraer 190 or simply E190, not ERJ-190. E-Jets are NOT ERJs!
Boeing 747-8, not Boeing 747-800. Same goes for 787.
Airbus A320, not Airbus 320.
Airbii does not exist.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Rossiya Airlines acquiring 7 of BA’s 747-400’s

Mon Sep 21, 2020 5:16 pm

xjetflyer2001 wrote:
https://samchui.com/2020/09/21/rossiya-to-acquire-7-ex-british-airways-b747/

Looking more and more like fake news

Well that’s unfortunate, like a poster said earlier, the more 747’s in Rossiya colors, the better

Not sure if this is funny or sad.

Our editorial team have just verified the news with British Airways. The news story below is a rumour and incorrect, it came from FlyerTalk Forum. We apologise for the inaccuracies.

A British Airways source confirmed that the airline has had no such discussions with Rossiya and no sale has been agreed upon.

I bet whomever posted it is having a good laugh now, an amazing troll job.

Is Sam Chui really putting his name on a web site that treats forum posts as news?
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Antaras
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Re: Rossiya Airlines acquiring 7 of BA’s 747-400’s

Mon Sep 21, 2020 6:06 pm

BA said no:

https://simpleflying.com/british-airway ... 7-rossiya/
British Airways has confirmed that there is no truth to the rumors circulating that a number of its Boeing 747s have been taken up by the Russian airline Rossiya. As things stand, all 31 of the airline’s Boeing 747s are due to be scrapped.
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FlyingElvii
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Re: Rossiya Airlines acquiring 7 of BA’s 747-400’s

Mon Sep 21, 2020 7:00 pm

MikeyESSA wrote:
I can very well image Rossiya putting the planes into service. Russia has nearly 150 milllion residents, and they're not going to stop travel just because most of the international traffic has come to a halt. Instead, the demand will move to domestic holiday destinations where they are already using 747's, and so more planes won't be a problem to fill. After all, fuel is extremely cheap right now, the planes are extremely cheap (Likely sold for not much more than scrap value), perfect service records and since BA had originally planned to keep them for a few years - they are probably not even facing any major overhauls or checks in the near future.

It's not a long term plan, but it'll probably work well for the time being. Just fill the planes with russian holidaymakers and fly while you can. Once the oil prices start rising again and the planes are nearing their major overhauls in a couple of years they would have had time to find a long term replacement.


Makes PERFECT sense for an operation like this.

Dirt cheap airplanes with plenty of parts available, that have been maintained to standard in one of the strictest western countries, with a large pax and cargo capacity, being flown in a country with dirt-cheap gov-subsidized gas, in a part of the world that doesn't give a damn about western noise regs. Plenty of range for asia and Africa ops. Why wouldn't they buy them if cheap enough??? It adds a whole lot of operational possibilities for them.

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