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SR380
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Updated: Airbus unveils three hydrogen concepts

Mon Sep 21, 2020 6:46 am

Hey guys,

Today Airbus will held a press conference where they will show some first sketches of three new planes they ambitions to fly by 2035:

A regional turboprop for up to 100 passengers.

A medium haul airliner for up to 200 passengers.

And what seems to be a flying wing for long haul journey.

The article below:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/m.20minute ... /a/2866551

I wonder if the first two will be built like the Tu-155 with the tanks in the haul:

https://images.app.goo.gl/R7BkgtpBpa5ju8np8

Or with the tank above the passengers:

https://images.app.goo.gl/duvUtTKerNdL6U54A

What are you guessing?
 
2175301
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Re: Airbus unveiling three hydrogen concept plane today at 2pm CET

Mon Sep 21, 2020 6:55 am

I just cannot see this really working out. Even with cryogenic tanks for liquid hydrogen (and pressurized hydrogen tanks are extremely heavy).

One factor is the fire and explosion factor in an aircraft crash where the tank is breached. I don't see a high survival rate vs kerosene...

Yes you can build concept aircraft... I just don't see the economics of it for realistic passenger service. Cryogenics are very costly and require an incredibly costly and complex infrastructure (and there is nothing energy efficient about liquefying hydrogen).

Have a great day,
 
bennett123
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Re: Airbus unveiling three hydrogen concept plane today at 2pm CET

Mon Sep 21, 2020 7:00 am

2035 is long way away.

Best to focus on still being here in 2025.
 
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cirrusdragoon
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Re: Airbus unveiling three hydrogen concept plane today at 2pm CET

Mon Sep 21, 2020 7:12 am

2175301 wrote:
I just cannot see this really working out. Even with cryogenic tanks for liquid hydrogen (and pressurized hydrogen tanks are extremely heavy).

One factor is the fire and explosion factor in an aircraft crash where the tank is breached. I don't see a high survival rate vs kerosene...

Yes you can build concept aircraft... I just don't see the economics of it for realistic passenger service. Cryogenics are very costly and require an incredibly costly and complex infrastructure (and there is nothing energy efficient about liquefying hydrogen).

Have a great day,


Actually they have managed to make it a workable product. Universal Hydrogen, a California-based startup co-founded by former Airbus chief technology officer Paul Eremenko, has launched plans to convert regional airliners to hydrogen power.

According to the company, aircraft of the size of the Dash 8 or the ATR 42 will offer a 400 nm usable range (allowing for reserves) with compressed gas hydrogen or 550 nm with liquid hydrogen. That means they would be able to serve, respectively, about 75 percent and 95 percent of the routes now flown by those aircraft models.

The hydrogen modules will be loaded into the rear of the aircraft and placed in a compartment that will replace the last two rows of seats. That will reduce capacity from around 50 to 40 passengers, but Universal Hydrogen says the cost to fly each seat a given distance will stay the same.

Plumbing lines will run from the modules through the aircraft’s dorsal fins into each of the two nacelles where fuel cells and electric motors are installed to power the existing propellers. Essentially, the hydrogen modules take the place of batteries in the electric propulsion system.

As for the dangers , from extensive testing by NASA and in the automotive industry, it is well established that gasoline is far more explosive than hydrogen, which burns quickly and rises from the point of ignition rather than engulfing the vehicle.

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... rogen-fuel
 
Noshow
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Re: Airbus unveiling three hydrogen concept plane today at 2pm CET

Mon Sep 21, 2020 7:54 am

Where will all this hydrogen needed come from? From "clean" nuclear energy?
 
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Re: Airbus unveiling three hydrogen concept plane today at 2pm CET

Mon Sep 21, 2020 8:30 am

Noshow wrote:
Where will all this hydrogen needed come from? From "clean" nuclear energy?


We can produce hydrogen directly by simply splitting water, in a process known as electrolysis, but it’s been prohibitively expensive in large part because it requires a lot of electricity. As the price of solar and wind power continues to rapidly decline, however, it will begin to look far more feasible.

electricity itself makes up a huge share of the cost—upwards of 60% or more—and, again, the costs of renewables are falling fast. Meanwhile, the costs of electrolyzers themselves are projected to decline steeply as manufacturers scale up production, and various research groups develop advanced versions of the technology.

A Nature Energy paper early last year found that if market trends continue, green hydrogen could be economically competitive on an industrial scale within a decade. Similarly, the International Energy Agency projects that the cost of clean hydrogen will fall 30% by 2030.

Green hydrogen may already be nearly affordable in some places where periods of excess renewable generation drive down the costs of electricity to nearly zero. In a research note last month, Morgan Stanley analysts wrote that locating green hydrogen facilities next to major wind farms in the US Midwest and Texas could make the fuel cost competitive within two years.

A June study from the US National Renewable Energy Laboratory found it may be closer to the middle of the century before hydrogen is the most affordable technology for long duration storage on the grid. But as fluctuating renewables like solar and wind become the dominant source of electricity, utilities will need to store up enough energy to keep the grid reliably working not just for a few hours, but for days and even weeks during certain months when those resources flag. https://www.technologyreview.com/2020/0 ... enewables/
 
VV
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Re: Airbus unveiling three hydrogen concept plane today at 2pm CET

Mon Sep 21, 2020 8:43 am

hydrogen plane?
That's a lot of gas!
 
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SR380
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Re: Airbus unveiling three hydrogen concept plane today at 2pm CET

Mon Sep 21, 2020 8:54 am

It still amuses me how people are sure that "this is impossible" and "it will never change". This reminds me when I was still studying mechanics. I was the only one believing that EV would take over, and sooner or later all major car companies would embrace that energy. Fortunately for all the Nah sayer I was damn wrong ! Anyway, on a lighter note, some pictures have licked already:

https://simpleflying.com/airbus-zero-em ... source=pop
 
Someone83
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Re: Airbus unveiling three hydrogen concept plane today at 2pm CET

Mon Sep 21, 2020 9:07 am

VV wrote:
That's a lot of gas!


Not when it is liquid....
 
Pottok
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Re: Airbus unveiling three hydrogen concept plane today at 2pm CET

Mon Sep 21, 2020 9:26 am

It's interessing, but hydrogen tanks took a lot of place in order to have a certain range...
 
jdevora
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Re: Airbus unveiling three hydrogen concept plane today at 2pm CET

Mon Sep 21, 2020 9:44 am

Hi,

There are a few studies about H2 in aviation.
All of them say that is not more dangerous than current fuels, there are multiple reasons, but addressing your "risk of explosion" claim, the H2 is so light that goes away before enough is build up for be able to explode.

Bjorn Fehrm is writing a series of articles about H2 in aviation right now:
https://leehamnews.com/2020/08/14/bjorn ... en-safety/

Very good introduction about the subject

Cheers
JD

2175301 wrote:
I just cannot see this really working out. Even with cryogenic tanks for liquid hydrogen (and pressurized hydrogen tanks are extremely heavy).

One factor is the fire and explosion factor in an aircraft crash where the tank is breached. I don't see a high survival rate vs kerosene...

Yes you can build concept aircraft... I just don't see the economics of it for realistic passenger service. Cryogenics are very costly and require an incredibly costly and complex infrastructure (and there is nothing energy efficient about liquefying hydrogen).

Have a great day,
 
VV
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Re: Airbus unveiling three hydrogen concept plane today at 2pm CET

Mon Sep 21, 2020 9:45 am

Someone83 wrote:
VV wrote:
That's a lot of gas!


Not when it is liquid....


I do not know if you took my comment literally or at nth degree.
I do not know either if I should take your comment literally or at nth degree.
 
 
FlyingHonu001
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Re: Airbus unveiling three hydrogen concept plane today at 2pm CET

Mon Sep 21, 2020 9:55 am

Could this also be a further development for the Flying V project??
 
tommy1808
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Re: Airbus unveiling three hydrogen concept plane today at 2pm CET

Mon Sep 21, 2020 10:11 am

2175301 wrote:
I just cannot see this really working out. Even with cryogenic tanks for liquid hydrogen (and pressurized hydrogen tanks are extremely heavy).


the tanks are a little heavy, but the hydrogen is really light for the given energy.

One factor is the fire and explosion factor in an aircraft crash where the tank is breached. I don't see a high survival rate vs kerosene...,


Hydrogen is no more dangerous that kerosene. Its actually harder to get a detonation out of it than with JP.
https://leehamnews.com/2020/08/14/bjorn ... en-safety/

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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tjwgrr
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Re: Airbus unveiling three hydrogen concept plane today at 2pm CET

Mon Sep 21, 2020 10:12 am

”Zero E” Not if you’re burning natural gas or coal to produce the electricity to create hydrogen. Guess we’ll have to build more landscape polluting and bird killing windmills.....
Direct KNOBS, maintain 2700' until established on the localizer, cleared ILS runway 26 left approach.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Airbus unveiling three hydrogen concept plane today at 2pm CET

Mon Sep 21, 2020 10:25 am

tjwgrr wrote:
”Zero E” Not if you’re burning natural gas or coal to produce the electricity to create hydrogen. Guess we’ll have to build more landscape polluting and bird killing windmills.....


Because High Voltage Power lines don´t pollute the langscape? And fun fact, per GWh conventional Power plants kill more birds than Wind turbines (factor 10+), and Electricity production is almost irrelevant to any bird carnage anyways. And there are lots of promising Gen IV nuclear power plants in the making, that are a good idea to get rid of our nuclear waste anyways, and Fusion power may actually be real in our lifetime...
If you want to protect birds, get rid of high voltage power lines, Radio towers and buildings .... or ban Nuisance bird control, as that kills about as many birds as wind turbines would... if all power came from those.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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keesje
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Re: Airbus unveiling three hydrogen concept plane today at 2pm CET

Mon Sep 21, 2020 10:47 am

Noshow wrote:
Where will all this hydrogen needed come from? From "clean" nuclear energy?


Yes. All options taking into account, I see little alternatives.

Sun & wind are just the window dressing we love to believe in

We ignore the massive energy requirements / current generation because we love to cheer progress.

Today we are totally on coal, oil & gas. Also if we don't want to be.

Image
https://ourworldindata.org/energy

A picture we should make mandatory on every school in the world.

To prevent everyone having idealistic, totally unrealistic expectations.

And many people making a lot of money out of it, selling feel-good & dreams. .
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
tommy1808
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Re: Airbus unveiling three hydrogen concept plane today at 2pm CET

Mon Sep 21, 2020 10:55 am

cirrusdragoon wrote:
Noshow wrote:
Where will all this hydrogen needed come from? From "clean" nuclear energy?


We can produce hydrogen directly by simply splitting water, in a process known as electrolysis, but it’s been prohibitively expensive in large part because it requires a lot of electricity. As the price of solar and wind power continues to rapidly decline, however, it will begin to look far more feasible.


That is where stuff like Dual fluid fast breeder reactors come into play..... they are inherently safe, can use LWR/PWR nuclear waste as fuel, and run hot enough to make hydrogen without the detour via electricity via the sulfur-iodine cycle. We have enough nuclear waste already to supply our electricity at current use rates for a half a millennia, and end up with waste needing only 300 years of storage or so. Its as win/win as it goes...

Of course promoting nuclear power is sort of toxic politically....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_fluid_reactor

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
filipinoavgeek
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Re: Airbus unveiling three hydrogen concept plane today at 2pm CET

Mon Sep 21, 2020 11:18 am

MrBren wrote:

Image

Image




Those planes look just like an ATR and an A321. I know these are just concepts, but I wonder if they'd actually pursue similar designs if these ever become a reality.
RIP 9V-SKA
2007 - 2019
 
JonesNL
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Re: Airbus unveiling three hydrogen concept plane today at 2pm CET

Mon Sep 21, 2020 11:21 am

keesje wrote:
Noshow wrote:
Where will all this hydrogen needed come from? From "clean" nuclear energy?


Yes. All options taking into account, I see little alternatives.

Sun & wind are just the window dressing we love to believe in

We ignore the massive energy requirements / current generation because we love to cheer progress.

Today we are totally on coal, oil & gas. Also if we don't want to be.

Image
https://ourworldindata.org/energy

A picture we should make mandatory on every school in the world.

To prevent everyone having idealistic, totally unrealistic expectations.

And many people making a lot of money out of it, selling feel-good & dreams. .


If you look at the graph, Gas took 60 years to arrive where it is today. So, according to this graph the same trend should be feasible for Solar and Wind in 60 years, right?
 
workhorse
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Re: Airbus unveiling three hydrogen concept plane today at 2pm CET

Mon Sep 21, 2020 11:22 am

Hydrogen thing aside, the narrowbody turbofan looks very interesting. I wonder if the artists have used concept pictures of the future A322 to make it. :)

A320 cross section with revised empennage, A350-style nose, new "thin and long" wing, looks like it's folding too... Add a longer fuselage and taller landing gear and you have an ideal A322 - sitting about 250-280 passengers, fitting into A320 gates, flying missions up to 10-11 hours and built on the same lines as the current 32S. :)
Last edited by workhorse on Mon Sep 21, 2020 11:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Airbus unveiling three hydrogen concept plane today at 2pm CET

Mon Sep 21, 2020 11:27 am

JonesNL wrote:
keesje wrote:
Noshow wrote:
Where will all this hydrogen needed come from? From "clean" nuclear energy?


Yes. All options taking into account, I see little alternatives.

Sun & wind are just the window dressing we love to believe in

We ignore the massive energy requirements / current generation because we love to cheer progress.

Today we are totally on coal, oil & gas. Also if we don't want to be.

Image
https://ourworldindata.org/energy

A picture we should make mandatory on every school in the world.

To prevent everyone having idealistic, totally unrealistic expectations.

And many people making a lot of money out of it, selling feel-good & dreams. .


If you look at the graph, Gas took 60 years to arrive where it is today. So, according to this graph the same trend should be feasible for Solar and Wind in 60 years, right?


and solar and wind kicked of in earnest ~20 years ago.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
Motorhussy
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Re: Airbus unveiling three hydrogen concept plane today at 2pm CET

Mon Sep 21, 2020 11:28 am

keesje wrote:
Noshow wrote:
Where will all this hydrogen needed come from? From "clean" nuclear energy?


Yes. All options taking into account, I see little alternatives.

Sun & wind are just the window dressing we love to believe in

We ignore the massive energy requirements / current generation because we love to cheer progress.

Today we are totally on coal, oil & gas. Also if we don't want to be.

Image
https://ourworldindata.org/energy

A picture we should make mandatory on every school in the world.

To prevent everyone having idealistic, totally unrealistic expectations.

And many people making a lot of money out of it, selling feel-good & dreams. .


That is really disturbing. In New Zealand we produce 39.5 percent of our primary energy supply from renewable sources last year and it’s improving.

Applause to Airbus, particularly during these tough times.

#NoPlanetB
come visit the south pacific
 
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keesje
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Re: Airbus unveiling three hydrogen concept plane today at 2pm CET

Mon Sep 21, 2020 11:30 am

JonesNL wrote:
keesje wrote:
Noshow wrote:
Where will all this hydrogen needed come from? From "clean" nuclear energy?


Yes. All options taking into account, I see little alternatives.

Sun & wind are just the window dressing we love to believe in

We ignore the massive energy requirements / current generation because we love to cheer progress.

Today we are totally on coal, oil & gas. Also if we don't want to be.

Image
https://ourworldindata.org/energy

A picture we should make mandatory on every school in the world.

To prevent everyone having idealistic, totally unrealistic expectations.

And many people making a lot of money out of it, selling feel-good & dreams. .


If you look at the graph, Gas took 60 years to arrive where it is today. So, according to this graph the same trend should be feasible for Solar and Wind in 60 years, right?


Nope. To build a windmill, put it in a sea, connect it & make sure we have power when there is no wind, remove it after 20-25 years, clean up, costs about the same amount of energy it takes to create / operate. We we still love to believe though, everybody knows wind & sun are for free :cloudnine:
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
BrianWilkes
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Re: Airbus unveiling three hydrogen concept plane today at 2pm CET

Mon Sep 21, 2020 11:35 am

Hmmmm one thought: Hindenburg!
 
Opus99
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Re: Airbus unveiling three hydrogen concept plane today at 2pm CET

Mon Sep 21, 2020 11:40 am

Ooohh. This is indeed interesting. I know the French government were pressing Airbus to develop something around that time. Well I love the a320 replacement looking one. I believe it’s called theTurbofan! I hope this comes online in 2035 it will be fantastic!
 
Whalejet
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Re: Airbus unveiling three hydrogen concept plane today at 2pm CET

Mon Sep 21, 2020 12:09 pm

Hydrogen has a gravimetric energy density of 142MJ/kg. Jet-A will give you 40MJ/kg. (Batteries are like 1MJ/kg at best). My personal thought (with no real math or calcs) is that H2 airliners are best suited for long, trunk routes. The square-cube law dictates that larger LH2 tanks will be more efficient than smaller H2 tanks (less insulation tank mass per unit volume of H2), making larger planes more efficient. Moreover, hydrogen infrastructure costs can be borne by larger airports more easily.

Off-peak electrolysis is already cheaper than jet fuel in some cases (though probably not clean - made from electricity generated in a coal plant). NYC's overnight rate, for example, is 1.55 cents per KWH (https://www.coned.com/en/save-money/ene ... ime-of-use). At 70% electrolysis efficiency, this gives you 88 cents per kg of H2. Compare that to the cost of Jet-A being roughly 65 cents per kg, and H2 giving you 3x the energy per unit mass.
 
jdevora
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Re: Airbus unveiling three hydrogen concept plane today at 2pm CET

Mon Sep 21, 2020 12:15 pm

BrianWilkes wrote:
Hmmmm one thought: Hindenburg!



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindenbur ... hypothesis
 
tommy1808
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Re: Airbus unveiling three hydrogen concept plane today at 2pm CET

Mon Sep 21, 2020 12:21 pm

BrianWilkes wrote:
Hmmmm one thought: Hindenburg!


yup. An vehicle drops out of the sky with almost 60 tons of JP worth as Hydrogen on board, and 2/3 of the people inside survived. Try that with Jetfuel...

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
11C
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Re: Airbus unveiling three hydrogen concept plane today at 2pm CET

Mon Sep 21, 2020 12:29 pm

bennett123 wrote:
2035 is long way away.

Best to focus on still being here in 2025.

That’s not how you get to the moon...
 
VSMUT
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Re: Airbus unveiling three hydrogen concept plane today at 2pm CET

Mon Sep 21, 2020 12:32 pm

filipinoavgeek wrote:
MrBren wrote:

Image

Image




Those planes look just like an ATR and an A321. I know these are just concepts, but I wonder if they'd actually pursue similar designs if these ever become a reality.


I was thinking the same. Honestly, to me it looks like they told an artist to take and A321neo and an ATR and change them enough to make it look like it wasn't one any more. Makes you wonder how serious they are about this.
 
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NYPECO
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Re: Airbus unveiling three hydrogen concept plane today at 2pm CET

Mon Sep 21, 2020 12:45 pm

We shouldn't bother trying to develop new technology since the experts here on A.net say it's not possible.
 
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Re: Airbus unveiling three hydrogen concept plane today at 2pm CET

Mon Sep 21, 2020 12:55 pm

BrianWilkes wrote:
Hmmmm one thought: Hindenburg!


Existing cars and trains using hydrogen as fuel is a proof that this innovation is far more serious than you think.
 
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keesje
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Re: Airbus unveiling three hydrogen concept plane today at 2pm CET

Mon Sep 21, 2020 1:12 pm

In cars and trains, service life, recharging, weight & reliability are less of an issue, they don't move at 10 km, 900km /hr over an Ocean. That's a difference, also in energy terms.

15 Years out, anything is possible & everyone forgot what was communicated in 2020, marketing loves it anyway. :yes:

The wing configuration on this one is interesting. It has nothing to do with hydrogen, but aligns with ongoing research. (Blade & AlbatrossOne) https://simpleflying.com/airbus-albatro ... ing-wings/

Image

The 100 seat prop has also been on the agenda for at least a decade. Choosing this configurations might also give a signal, regardless of the hydrogen feasibility discussions.
Last edited by keesje on Mon Sep 21, 2020 1:20 pm, edited 3 times in total.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
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LaunchDetected
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Re: Airbus unveiling three hydrogen concept plane today at 2pm CET

Mon Sep 21, 2020 1:16 pm

With the cancellation of E-Fan X, it means that Airbus is more confident in hydrogen engines than in battery efficiency develoments for future "clean" aircrafts.
Caravelle lover
 
Sokes
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Re: Airbus unveiling three hydrogen concept plane today at 2pm CET

Mon Sep 21, 2020 1:28 pm

keesje wrote:
To build a windmill, put it in a sea, connect it & make sure we have power when there is no wind, remove it after 20-25 years, clean up, costs about the same amount of energy it takes to create / operate.

I don't understand what you mean. Can you expand?
Your graph suggests that nuclear has no future.
But it's true that we are only at the beginning of the energy transition. That's not surprising. Crucial technologies like H2 or High Voltage Direct Current are still in development.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
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BawliBooch
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Re: Airbus unveiling three hydrogen concept plane today at 2pm CET

Mon Sep 21, 2020 1:35 pm

Looks fantastic!

But do airports have the infra to refuel these planes? That alone will make this difficult!
Mr.Kapoor's favorite poodle!
 
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keesje
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Re: Airbus unveiling three hydrogen concept plane today at 2pm CET

Mon Sep 21, 2020 2:01 pm

Sokes wrote:
keesje wrote:
To build a windmill, put it in a sea, connect it & make sure we have power when there is no wind, remove it after 20-25 years, clean up, costs about the same amount of energy it takes to create / operate.

I don't understand what you mean. Can you expand?
Your graph suggests that nuclear has no future.
But it's true that we are only at the beginning of the energy transition. That's not surprising. Crucial technologies like H2 or High Voltage Direct Current are still in development.


If you build / integrate a windmill, you have to include all the energy required, to create / form / transport the steel, create the basements in the sea, the cabling, power stations and required infrastructure to manage power variations when there is no / too much wind. And after 20 years thye energy required to dismantle / remove process everything back in an environmentally friendly way. Add everything up and distract that from the electricity generated by the mindmill over those 20 years. Nobody wants to know, we want to take action & see progress, for our grandchildren. So we start counting just production.

https://www.clepair.net/Udo201303payback.html
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
AngMoh
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Re: Airbus unveiling three hydrogen concept plane today at 2pm CET

Mon Sep 21, 2020 2:05 pm

MrBren wrote:
BrianWilkes wrote:
Hmmmm one thought: Hindenburg!


Existing cars and trains using hydrogen as fuel is a proof that this innovation is far more serious than you think.


I saw today a presentation about a big push towards hydrogen ships which will be announced later this week. And it was by a big player.

NYPECO wrote:
We shouldn't bother trying to develop new technology since the experts here on A.net say it's not possible.


I used to be sceptical about hydrogen, but am changing my mind (and I have worked in wind, solar and transportation, starting off in petrol engines). Big money is going in hydrogen, wind and solar. For those who doubt, solar and wind are today cheaper than fossil fuels in many locations. Hydrogen is not there yet, but will get there: there is so much money going into R&D it is inevitable and these are big players like DLR. I was sceptical about the 6 GW solar farm in Australia and a cable to Singapore: I was wrong and it is probably going to happen because the numbers look that it can be justified using the latest HVDC technology.

If you want some facts: a Tesla is a dirty car in many parts of the world as electricity is from coal. But in countries like Sweden a Tesla is very clean as electricity is from nuclear and hydro. Norway has more electric cars than any other country because first they have abundant electrical power from hydro and second because of that everything is electrified and adding an EV charger to your house is easy. The calculation is different from country to country.

This is going to happen commercially: maybe not at the timelines promised, but sooner or later.
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william
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Re: Airbus unveiling three hydrogen concept plane today at 2pm CET

Mon Sep 21, 2020 2:06 pm

MrBren wrote:


We know Airbus is looking at the next aircraft to replace the cash cow A320, so we the design of it in these renders. The next ATR is on the drawing boards so we see the that design too in the renders. But what purpose does the flying wing serve? Its a small aircraft according to these renders.
 
AngMoh
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Re: Airbus unveiling three hydrogen concept plane today at 2pm CET

Mon Sep 21, 2020 2:08 pm

keesje wrote:
Sokes wrote:
keesje wrote:
To build a windmill, put it in a sea, connect it & make sure we have power when there is no wind, remove it after 20-25 years, clean up, costs about the same amount of energy it takes to create / operate.

I don't understand what you mean. Can you expand?
Your graph suggests that nuclear has no future.
But it's true that we are only at the beginning of the energy transition. That's not surprising. Crucial technologies like H2 or High Voltage Direct Current are still in development.


If you build / integrate a windmill, you have to include all the energy required, to create / form / transport the steel, create the basements in the sea, the cabling, power stations and required infrastructure to manage power variations when there is no / too much wind. And after 20 years thye energy required to dismantle / remove process everything back in an environmentally friendly way. Add everything up and distract that from the electricity generated by the mindmill over those 20 years. Nobody wants to know, we want to take action & see progress, for our grandchildren. So we start counting just production.

https://www.clepair.net/Udo201303payback.html


You have no clue about these calculations. Today, solar and wind are cheap. If you add the cost of dismantling a nuclear power plant. It does not make sense. If you do the same for a coal or a gas plant, it does not make sense. I know about projects which are non-subsides and wind and solar were significantly cheaper than fossil fuels.

Please wake up.
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VSMUT
Posts: 4576
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Re: Airbus unveiling three hydrogen concept plane today at 2pm CET

Mon Sep 21, 2020 2:14 pm

william wrote:
But what purpose does the flying wing serve? Its a small aircraft according to these renders.


Scaled down technology demonstrator, for future aerodynamic designs and hydrogen propulsion.
 
zuckie13
Posts: 314
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:23 pm

Re: Airbus unveiling three hydrogen concept plane today at 2pm CET

Mon Sep 21, 2020 2:19 pm

I'll never complain about engineers trying to look forward, even if it's a big tough leap.

One thing that I can also see is at-airport generation of Hydrogen. It's a pain to transport volume wise - but if you can take renewable energy and build hydrogen generators at airports as part of their fuel farms, you can avoid needing the infrastructure to transport it long distances. Something not really feasible with petroleum based fuels. Offshore wind farm in Long Island Sound or off the southern coast of Long Island feeding power to JFK where it generates the fuel to send these on their way would be cool.
 
blockski
Posts: 690
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:30 pm

Re: Airbus unveiling three hydrogen concept plane today at 2pm CET

Mon Sep 21, 2020 2:25 pm

Hydrogen is worth exploring if you want aviation to have a future in a world where we need to reduce (and eventually eliminate) GHG emissions. Yes, it takes energy to create H2 so that the entire process is truly carbon-free, but aviation is always going to require fuel with a high enough energy density to make flight feasible. Hydrogen fits that bill.

Pursuing hydrogen power for cars and other modes of transport that already have perfectly viable strategies for electrification and alternative propulsion is silly, but not for aviation.

The prospects for building the infrastructure to support H2 fueling in aviation is similarly much more achievable than, say, replacing every gas station in the world with H2.
 
Fabrice95
Posts: 9
Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2009 1:46 pm

Re: Airbus unveiling three hydrogen concept plane today at 2pm CET

Mon Sep 21, 2020 2:25 pm

keesje wrote:
Noshow wrote:
Where will all this hydrogen needed come from? From "clean" nuclear energy?


Yes. All options taking into account, I see little alternatives.

Sun & wind are just the window dressing we love to believe in

We ignore the massive energy requirements / current generation because we love to cheer progress.

Today we are totally on coal, oil & gas. Also if we don't want to be.

Image
https://ourworldindata.org/energy

A picture we should make mandatory on every school in the world.

To prevent everyone having idealistic, totally unrealistic expectations.

And many people making a lot of money out of it, selling feel-good & dreams. .


The diagram paints a dull picture indeed. However, the topic was electricity generation. Only 18% of the primary energy is used for electricity according to Shell (https://www.shell.com/energy-and-innovation/the-energy-future/scenarios/shell-scenarios-energy-models/world-energy-model/_jcr_content/par/textimage.stream/1510344160326/2ee82a9c68cd84e572c9db09cc43d7ec3e3fafe7/shell-world-energy-model.pdf).

And while we are still focused on coal for our electricity, renewables have a share of 26% globally, nuclear being at 10%: https://www.iea.org/data-and-statistics ... ource-2018

So saying that renewables stand no chance to create fuel for future aircraft is exagerrated.


keesje wrote:
Sokes wrote:
keesje wrote:
To build a windmill, put it in a sea, connect it & make sure we have power when there is no wind, remove it after 20-25 years, clean up, costs about the same amount of energy it takes to create / operate.

I don't understand what you mean. Can you expand?
Your graph suggests that nuclear has no future.
But it's true that we are only at the beginning of the energy transition. That's not surprising. Crucial technologies like H2 or High Voltage Direct Current are still in development.


If you build / integrate a windmill, you have to include all the energy required, to create / form / transport the steel, create the basements in the sea, the cabling, power stations and required infrastructure to manage power variations when there is no / too much wind. And after 20 years thye energy required to dismantle / remove process everything back in an environmentally friendly way. Add everything up and distract that from the electricity generated by the mindmill over those 20 years. Nobody wants to know, we want to take action & see progress, for our grandchildren. So we start counting just production.

https://www.clepair.net/Udo201303payback.html


You are contradicting your own source. The only thing missing from its calculation is dismantling. Some parts of a wind turbine can be recycled (i.e. metal parts), which will reduce energy required for future wind turbine production. If dismantling requires another 5% of the total energy production, that only takes the total to 18% of total production which are "wasted" on the machines. Which is nowhere near "about the same amount of energy it takes to create / operate".
 
pune
Posts: 399
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:18 am

Re: Airbus unveiling three hydrogen concept plane today at 2pm CET

Mon Sep 21, 2020 3:10 pm

Nuclear energy though seems to have its own pain -

https://www.independent.co.uk/environme ... 80611.html

While I'm in India, and have seen Indians protesting against nuclear power and it took me a while to understand why. I did see the mini-series Chernobyl and many people thought it was just scare tactics and said modern nuclear plants are much safer. In the article shared above, it is about a nuclear plant which was turned off in 1994. The problems arise when things go wrong, I do not see any such issues with other alternatives (should now be called mainstream) methods of energy generation. Last but not the least, let's see what Mr. Musk shares about battery day :)
 
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keesje
Posts: 14001
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

Re: Airbus unveiling three hydrogen concept plane today at 2pm CET

Mon Sep 21, 2020 4:16 pm

Maybe hydrogen is a solution to store energy for aircraft, but only if we are able to create hydrogen with clean energy. For electric aircraft battery energy intensity would have to grow maybe 60 folt to be useful. At that point they would have energy density like ..dynamite? Which leads experts to believe the last fossil fuels will end up in aircraft. Hard to electrify or find alternative fuels. We would have done so 45 yrs ago, if it wasn't. (people on the moon: 51 years ago).

Probably less flying, more high speed land transport and non fossil fuels help. Biofuels are also window dressing bottom line, often destroying woods, plants in a very inefficient way.

It seems a big majority (globally) is now convinced we need to move on to cleaner energy, including Airbus. Justified in my opinion. But there are a ton of companies, individuals and institutions making money out of our concerns by presenting half truths, incomplete figures and unrealistic solutions. Creating jobs, incomes and profits. Feeding public perceptions.

Everybody loves to hear we are on the right track. Just confirm, promise and create awesome graphics and you are a visionaire. Who'll remember in 20 years? We tend to see what we want to see & forget quickly if we missed the boat.

Image
keesje
Last edited by keesje on Mon Sep 21, 2020 4:39 pm, edited 3 times in total.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
planecane
Posts: 1578
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2017 4:58 pm

Re: Airbus unveiling three hydrogen concept plane today at 2pm CET

Mon Sep 21, 2020 4:34 pm

jdevora wrote:
Hi,

There are a few studies about H2 in aviation.
All of them say that is not more dangerous than current fuels, there are multiple reasons, but addressing your "risk of explosion" claim, the H2 is so light that goes away before enough is build up for be able to explode.

Bjorn Fehrm is writing a series of articles about H2 in aviation right now:
https://leehamnews.com/2020/08/14/bjorn ... en-safety/

Very good introduction about the subject

Cheers
JD

2175301 wrote:
I just cannot see this really working out. Even with cryogenic tanks for liquid hydrogen (and pressurized hydrogen tanks are extremely heavy).

One factor is the fire and explosion factor in an aircraft crash where the tank is breached. I don't see a high survival rate vs kerosene...

Yes you can build concept aircraft... I just don't see the economics of it for realistic passenger service. Cryogenics are very costly and require an incredibly costly and complex infrastructure (and there is nothing energy efficient about liquefying hydrogen).

Have a great day,


It's not like jet fuel doesn't ignite. In the Challenger explosion, the H2 fire didn't continue to burn much longer than 10 seconds.
 
mxaxai
Posts: 1995
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:29 am

Re: Airbus unveiling three hydrogen concept plane today at 2pm CET

Mon Sep 21, 2020 5:02 pm

tjwgrr wrote:
Guess we’ll have to build more landscape polluting

I really don't get the "landscape pollution" argument.

Contrails "pollute the landscape". Coal mines "pollute the landscape", as do powerplant exhausts (and not just the landscape ...). Airports are huge intrusions on the "landscape", TV towers and other high-rise buildings can be seen from miles away. Coal powerplants usually get their fuel via ship or train, guess what, canals and railways are huge "landscape polluters". Highways often cut right through the landscape without care for terrain and geography.

83% of Earth's ice-free land area is directly influenced by humans (https://www.geosociety.org/gsatoday/arc ... 2-12-4.htm), and over 50% has been actively modified through agriculture or construction activities. Wherever you live, the view from your window is (nearly) guaranteed to be the result of human activity.

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