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trigged
Posts: 238
Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2005 8:25 am

Re: Airbus unveiling three hydrogen concept plane today at 2pm CET

Tue Sep 22, 2020 2:01 pm

lightsaber wrote:
The dirgebles were hard to set on fire, until they weren't. Hydrogen is the smallest molecule. The handling costs are very high in cryogenic or gas form

I use hydrogen to "cheat" and start any fire as no explosives permit required and it has the broadest flamability range.

One advantage, super easy lean burn combustors.

Range will plummet. I hope for fuel cells powering on wing ducted propellers ( faster cruise, less noise). I think methane fuel cells and then hydrogen.

15 years in the future us industry talk for maybe never. 15 years away means big problems to be solved by someone else.

If we started today, we could have one regional fuel distribution network in 12 years.

As a combustion Engineer, it scares me how blase people are on hydrogen safety. When we buy in quantity, the same protocols as moving really dangerous stuff must be followed.

Do they allow trucking cryogenic hydrogen? We always get it by rail for safety as the required safety cage weighs over 80,000 pounds (the maximum weight for a truck)!

Lightsaber


This! I work with launch vehicle design and combustion as well, and hydrogen can cause headaches.
 
pune
Posts: 405
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:18 am

Re: Updated: Airbus unveils three hydrogen concepts

Tue Sep 22, 2020 2:59 pm

I was amazed when I came to know that the U.S. of all countries has been removing dams and restoring natural river ecosystems.

http://www.planetexperts.com/restoring- ... icas-dams/

https://www.americanrivers.org/threats- ... moval-map/

This alone should let people pause in their perusal of new dams, even micro-dams.
 
JonesNL
Posts: 226
Joined: Tue Aug 06, 2019 2:40 pm

Re: Airbus unveiling three hydrogen concept plane today at 2pm CET

Tue Sep 22, 2020 3:29 pm

keesje wrote:
JonesNL wrote:
keesje wrote:

If you build / integrate a windmill, you have to include all the energy required, to create / form / transport the steel, create the basements in the sea, the cabling, power stations and required infrastructure to manage power variations when there is no / too much wind. And after 20 years thye energy required to dismantle / remove process everything back in an environmentally friendly way. Add everything up and distract that from the electricity generated by the mindmill over those 20 years. Nobody wants to know, we want to take action & see progress, for our grandchildren. So we start counting just production.

https://www.clepair.net/Udo201303payback.html


Damm, your Source is a 7 year old article :banghead: . The prices of windmills have been going down rapidly, same with solar. And the trend is Probably to continue which will cause wind and solar to be the cheapest Source of electricity.


I you think so, check your sources, are they really independent? Check our national CBS. Distract 65% for biomassa from sustainable (another xx Billion sheepish farce we all want to forget asap) https://www.cbs.nl/nl-nl/nieuws/2020/22 ... t-gegroeid, and inhale what the real contributions is of sun & wind, despite all the windmill & solar panels we bought. https://www.clo.nl/indicatoren/nl0054-e ... giedrager-.

IMO the lack of basic knowledge & understanding of the electorate is astonishing IMO. And sun and wind industry clusters are are pumping in marketing millions to keep it that way. Most think everything hefty subsidized is cheap. I foresee a national parliamentary investigation into this in the Netherlands. How come we spend xx Billions on sustainable energy & still are nowhere? Moments of truth.

IMO hydro energy (dams) are maybe indeed the best renewable source, because you can store excess energy from elsewhere into them too. But we don't have the mountains e.g. our NZ & Alps friends have..


If you think that nuclear, oil or coal is not subsidized I have a bridge to sell you...

You should know that wind is already cheaper than fossil fuels, even in Texas they stopped investing in other sources and just invest in wind. Just follow the money:

https://arstechnica.com/science/2019/08 ... tural-gas/
https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/pl ... g-cheaper/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cost_of_e ... _by_source
https://www.altenergymag.com/article/20 ... ergy/33009
https://nawindpower.com/doe-report-conf ... -time-lows
https://newscenter.lbl.gov/2019/08/26/r ... nd-energy/

But keep saying that we are fed lies, despite all market data and investment funds dropping fossil fuel driven energy stocks. You probably also despise the common people for believing the earth is a globe...
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Updated: Airbus unveils three hydrogen concepts

Tue Sep 22, 2020 4:14 pm

I've worked a career on more environmentally friendly aircraft. Anything 15 years out is for PR. Technology I worked on in 1998 entered the fleet in 2016 and it was less radical.

I'm very proud of getting technology into aircraft, from 1950s Whittle patents! In late 1990s to now. :wideeyed:

Lightsaber

PS, my absolute favorite Whittle patent, is still 15 years out... :cry2: Technology I started working in 1996... CMCs are a required enabling technology.
I cannot wait to get vaccinated to live again! Warning: I simulated that it takes 50%+ vaccinated to protect the vaccinated and 75%+ vaccinated to protect the vac-hesitant.
 
dobilan
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Re: Updated: Airbus unveils three hydrogen concepts

Tue Sep 22, 2020 4:28 pm

At least they are not saying they'll fly on batteries. Maybe some desperate PR measure to stir some public interest. Maybe even keep the shares afloat a bit more.
Speaking of technological breakthroughs from planemakers, any news from the fusion reactor of Skunk Works?
 
kalvado
Posts: 2971
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 am

Re: Updated: Airbus unveils three hydrogen concepts

Tue Sep 22, 2020 4:36 pm

dobilan wrote:
At least they are not saying they'll fly on batteries. Maybe some desperate PR measure to stir some public interest. Maybe even keep the shares afloat a bit more.
Speaking of technological breakthroughs from planemakers, any news from the fusion reactor of Skunk Works?

Another thing coming from Airbus (yet again, it was on the news a few years back) is formation flying:
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1452025
Of course, it can be unrelated news...
 
ikramerica
Posts: 15101
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

Re: Airbus unveiling three hydrogen concept plane today at 2pm CET

Tue Sep 22, 2020 4:46 pm

cirrusdragoon wrote:
Noshow wrote:
Where will all this hydrogen needed come from? From "clean" nuclear energy?


We can produce hydrogen directly by simply splitting water, in a process known as electrolysis, but it’s been prohibitively expensive in large part because it requires a lot of electricity. As the price of solar and wind power continues to rapidly decline, however, it will begin to look far more feasible.

electricity itself makes up a huge share of the cost—upwards of 60% or more—and, again, the costs of renewables are falling fast. Meanwhile, the costs of electrolyzers themselves are projected to decline steeply as manufacturers scale up production, and various research groups develop advanced versions of the technology.

A Nature Energy paper early last year found that if market trends continue, green hydrogen could be economically competitive on an industrial scale within a decade. Similarly, the International Energy Agency projects that the cost of clean hydrogen will fall 30% by 2030.

Green hydrogen may already be nearly affordable in some places where periods of excess renewable generation drive down the costs of electricity to nearly zero. In a research note last month, Morgan Stanley analysts wrote that locating green hydrogen facilities next to major wind farms in the US Midwest and Texas could make the fuel cost competitive within two years.

A June study from the US National Renewable Energy Laboratory found it may be closer to the middle of the century before hydrogen is the most affordable technology for long duration storage on the grid. But as fluctuating renewables like solar and wind become the dominant source of electricity, utilities will need to store up enough energy to keep the grid reliably working not just for a few hours, but for days and even weeks during certain months when those resources flag. https://www.technologyreview.com/2020/0 ... enewables/

Because there is so much excess water in West Texas and high solar energy places like Arizona and the Middle East?
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
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keesje
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Re: Airbus unveiling three hydrogen concept plane today at 2pm CET

Tue Sep 22, 2020 4:57 pm

JonesNL wrote:
keesje wrote:
JonesNL wrote:

Damm, your Source is a 7 year old article :banghead: . The prices of windmills have been going down rapidly, same with solar. And the trend is Probably to continue which will cause wind and solar to be the cheapest Source of electricity.


I you think so, check your sources, are they really independent? Check our national CBS. Distract 65% for biomassa from sustainable (another xx Billion sheepish farce we all want to forget asap) https://www.cbs.nl/nl-nl/nieuws/2020/22 ... t-gegroeid, and inhale what the real contributions is of sun & wind, despite all the windmill & solar panels we bought. https://www.clo.nl/indicatoren/nl0054-e ... giedrager-.

IMO the lack of basic knowledge & understanding of the electorate is astonishing IMO. And sun and wind industry clusters are are pumping in marketing millions to keep it that way. Most think everything hefty subsidized is cheap. I foresee a national parliamentary investigation into this in the Netherlands. How come we spend xx Billions on sustainable energy & still are nowhere? Moments of truth.

IMO hydro energy (dams) are maybe indeed the best renewable source, because you can store excess energy from elsewhere into them too. But we don't have the mountains e.g. our NZ & Alps friends have..


If you think that nuclear, oil or coal is not subsidized I have a bridge to sell you...

You should know that wind is already cheaper than fossil fuels, even in Texas they stopped investing in other sources and just invest in wind. Just follow the money:

https://arstechnica.com/science/2019/08 ... tural-gas/
https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/pl ... g-cheaper/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cost_of_e ... _by_source
https://www.altenergymag.com/article/20 ... ergy/33009
https://nawindpower.com/doe-report-conf ... -time-lows
https://newscenter.lbl.gov/2019/08/26/r ... nd-energy/

But keep saying that we are fed lies, despite all market data and investment funds dropping fossil fuel driven energy stocks. You probably also despise the common people for believing the earth is a globe...


Put all your family savings, pension in wind, solar driven energy stocks if you are sure ! Stocks are driven by perceptions rather than realities, ask Boeing.

Electrifying ground transport, house warming and industry with nuclear generated electricity & save "oil" for (reduced, rational) air transport might be the most viable to preserve the environment.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Updated: Airbus unveils three hydrogen concepts

Tue Sep 22, 2020 5:51 pm

How much will it cost to do the macro encapsulation of Chernobyl? I am guessing by the time Fukushima is finally cleaned up - upwards of $1 trillion (estimate now is 200-300 billion).

Puerto Rico's wind towers blew over in Hurricane Marie. cleanup - trivial.

Electrical grid infrastructure is good for upwards of 100 years, and even then the most expensive part is the right of way, which is about eternal.

Current estimates are that a moderately large national grid powered by wind and solar can provide 80% of electrical demand. And of course that Tesla that is now charging on coal electricity will suddenly become entirely green. Africa as a whole never developed national grids for telephones - and they never will, nor need to. This seems to be happening in rural areas with solar/wind power.

Nay sayers never will be convinced. Their Bayesian starting point is green bad/hydrocarbon good. Any subsequent evidence is accepted or not accepted in so far as it confirms their starting facts.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
mxaxai
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Re: Airbus unveiling three hydrogen concept plane today at 2pm CET

Tue Sep 22, 2020 5:56 pm

ikramerica wrote:
Because there is so much excess water in West Texas and high solar energy places like Arizona and the Middle East?

You have to use resources where you find them. There's no point in trying to grow bananas in Maine but it's a profitable business in Brazil.
 
kalvado
Posts: 2971
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 am

Re: Updated: Airbus unveils three hydrogen concepts

Tue Sep 22, 2020 8:09 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
How much will it cost to do the macro encapsulation of Chernobyl? I am guessing by the time Fukushima is finally cleaned up - upwards of $1 trillion (estimate now is 200-300 billion).

Puerto Rico's wind towers blew over in Hurricane Marie. cleanup - trivial.

Electrical grid infrastructure is good for upwards of 100 years, and even then the most expensive part is the right of way, which is about eternal.

Current estimates are that a moderately large national grid powered by wind and solar can provide 80% of electrical demand. And of course that Tesla that is now charging on coal electricity will suddenly become entirely green. Africa as a whole never developed national grids for telephones - and they never will, nor need to. This seems to be happening in rural areas with solar/wind power.

Nay sayers never will be convinced. Their Bayesian starting point is green bad/hydrocarbon good. Any subsequent evidence is accepted or not accepted in so far as it confirms their starting facts.

If you want to calculate things this way, you need to take into account byproducts of nuclear technology, irreplaceable without energy reactors. Americium for smoke detectors, cobalt-60 for sterilization, many other isotopes for therapy and diagnostics. It may cost trillions to deal with accidents; how much it would cost to go back to steel-and-metal reusable syringes? Hint: sharpening those needles is non-trivial...
 
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keesje
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Re: Updated: Airbus unveils three hydrogen concepts

Tue Sep 22, 2020 8:28 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:

Nay sayers never will be convinced. Their Bayesian starting point is green bad/hydrocarbon good. Any subsequent evidence is accepted or not accepted in so far as it confirms their starting facts.


What an utter non-sense. Who likes pollution? But that doesn't automatically make solar / wind power feasible or a good idea. For aircraft: forget technological breakthroughs solving everything, we haven't seen them over the last 60 years, despite 100's of billions in R&D.

We have to give up blindly believing solar, wind, biomass and hydrogen "solutions", for earth, our grandchildren and other emotional drivers, that we constantly exposed too by media and institution getting rich. Brains, technology and painful compromises are needed to find real solutions. Not violin music, beautiful young people and emotions.This is for real.

Image
https://es.123rf.com/clipart-vectorizad ... 6l4n951fe|
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
744SPX
Posts: 330
Joined: Mon Jan 27, 2020 6:20 pm

Re: Updated: Airbus unveils three hydrogen concepts

Tue Sep 22, 2020 9:21 pm

Wind power is far from free and it does effect the environment negatively when used on a large scale. Huge windfarms and ever larger wind turbines end up effecting local airflow patterns and that snowballs. The bigger they get the more pronounced these effects will be. These farms draw energy from weather patterns and systems. The result of that reduction in atmospheric energy is worsening climate change as atmospheric entropy is increased. That is why wind will only be good for a small portion of global power requirements. I'll take a small modular reactor in my backyard over a windfarm any day.

Also, see this: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 112553.htm
"Large-scale US wind power would cause warming that would take roughly a century to offset"
 
Aceskywalker
Posts: 150
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Re: Updated: Airbus unveils three hydrogen concepts

Tue Sep 22, 2020 9:55 pm

keesje wrote:
frmrCapCadet wrote:

Nay sayers never will be convinced. Their Bayesian starting point is green bad/hydrocarbon good. Any subsequent evidence is accepted or not accepted in so far as it confirms their starting facts.


What an utter non-sense. Who likes pollution? But that doesn't automatically make solar / wind power feasible or a good idea. For aircraft: forget technological breakthroughs solving everything, we haven't seen them over the last 60 years, despite 100's of billions in R&D.

We have to give up blindly believing solar, wind, biomass and hydrogen "solutions", for earth, our grandchildren and other emotional drivers, that we constantly exposed too by media and institution getting rich. Brains, technology and painful compromises are needed to find real solutions. Not violin music, beautiful young people and emotions.This is for real.
|


Out of curiosity, what do you propose we do? Define "painful compromises".
 
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KrustyTheKlown
Posts: 369
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Re: Airbus unveiling three hydrogen concept plane today at 2pm CET

Tue Sep 22, 2020 9:57 pm

keesje wrote:
Sokes wrote:
keesje wrote:
To build a windmill, put it in a sea, connect it & make sure we have power when there is no wind, remove it after 20-25 years, clean up, costs about the same amount of energy it takes to create / operate.

I don't understand what you mean. Can you expand?
Your graph suggests that nuclear has no future.
But it's true that we are only at the beginning of the energy transition. That's not surprising. Crucial technologies like H2 or High Voltage Direct Current are still in development.


If you build / integrate a windmill, you have to include all the energy required, to create / form / transport the steel, create the basements in the sea, the cabling, power stations and required infrastructure to manage power variations when there is no / too much wind. And after 20 years thye energy required to dismantle / remove process everything back in an environmentally friendly way. Add everything up and distract that from the electricity generated by the mindmill over those 20 years. Nobody wants to know, we want to take action & see progress, for our grandchildren. So we start counting just production.

https://www.clepair.net/Udo201303payback.html


It appears you didn't even read your source as it claims than in just 23 months a wind turbine generates more energy than it's expected to use for its entire lifecycle.

And more reputable sources put that figure as low as 6 months.

That means that for 90+ % of their lifetime they are producing carbon free energy.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

Re: Updated: Airbus unveils three hydrogen concepts

Tue Sep 22, 2020 10:07 pm

The article pointed out that the International Energy Agency estimated that EVs displaced almost 600,000 barrels of oil products per day in 2019. This number is expected to grow to 2.5 million barrels daily by 2030, and that’s based on fairly conservative forecasts.
Today's Cleantechnica.

And this is only 2019. What do the naysayers think this number will be 2025, I suspect that 2.5 million barrels will occur much earlier. If you think otherwise make a killing by investing your retirement funds in petroleum. (note - please don't, I don't dislike anyone that much)
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
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keesje
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Re: Updated: Airbus unveils three hydrogen concepts

Tue Sep 22, 2020 10:22 pm

Aceskywalker wrote:
keesje wrote:
frmrCapCadet wrote:

Nay sayers never will be convinced. Their Bayesian starting point is green bad/hydrocarbon good. Any subsequent evidence is accepted or not accepted in so far as it confirms their starting facts.


What an utter non-sense. Who likes pollution? But that doesn't automatically make solar / wind power feasible or a good idea. For aircraft: forget technological breakthroughs solving everything, we haven't seen them over the last 60 years, despite 100's of billions in R&D.

We have to give up blindly believing solar, wind, biomass and hydrogen "solutions", for earth, our grandchildren and other emotional drivers, that we constantly exposed too by media and institution getting rich. Brains, technology and painful compromises are needed to find real solutions. Not violin music, beautiful young people and emotions.This is for real.
|


Out of curiosity, what do you propose we do? Define "painful compromises".


- accept nuclear plants & waste
- keep gas plants as long as we have coal plants
- limit the masses exploring great places globally
- limit car power to e.g 120 shp/ a exhaust maximum
- serious car exhaust filters, eg changed every 5000nm
- fly slower, make more tech stops
- limit harbor access for polluting ships
- limit consumption of meat
- limit flying in cheap goods from China within a week

Stuff we don't like, hurt the economy, limit freedom
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
kalvado
Posts: 2971
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 am

Re: Updated: Airbus unveils three hydrogen concepts

Tue Sep 22, 2020 11:15 pm

keesje wrote:
Aceskywalker wrote:
keesje wrote:

What an utter non-sense. Who likes pollution? But that doesn't automatically make solar / wind power feasible or a good idea. For aircraft: forget technological breakthroughs solving everything, we haven't seen them over the last 60 years, despite 100's of billions in R&D.

We have to give up blindly believing solar, wind, biomass and hydrogen "solutions", for earth, our grandchildren and other emotional drivers, that we constantly exposed too by media and institution getting rich. Brains, technology and painful compromises are needed to find real solutions. Not violin music, beautiful young people and emotions.This is for real.
|


Out of curiosity, what do you propose we do? Define "painful compromises".


- accept nuclear plants & waste
- keep gas plants as long as we have coal plants
- limit the masses exploring great places globally
- limit car power to e.g 120 shp/ a exhaust maximum
- serious car exhaust filters, eg changed every 5000nm
- fly slower, make more tech stops
- limit harbor access for polluting ships
- limit consumption of meat
- limit flying in cheap goods from China within a week

Stuff we don't like, hurt the economy, limit freedom

Car ehxaust filters are, probably, not a real thing on the list.
Forcing workers to live right above the production/office floor and limiting hot showers to once a week are two more major things to consider.
 
prebennorholm
Posts: 7128
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Re: Updated: Airbus unveils three hydrogen concepts

Wed Sep 23, 2020 1:04 am

"Hybrid hydrogen turbofan engines", they write without any hint what the word "hybrid" means here.

"tanks located behind the rear pressure bulkhead", and no hint how it affects CG as fuel is consumed.

Those and other such simplifications tell me that this whole thing is eye candy and nothing else.

It doesn't matter. It will never happen. Not because it is too hard to produce the hydrogen powered planes, that will be the easy stuff. When it is realized what it means to make an airport size liquid hydrogen storage facility and tanking infrastructure, then such things will be allowed by the public only out in the desert 300 miles away from nearest inhabited area. Not exactly where airports are most needed.

People will rather be surrounded by a dozen Fukushima-quality nuke plants than be neighbor to a liquid hydrogen airport.

Airbus didn't tell us anything new. They showed us a few pretty pictures, and provided some simplified text which doesn't really cover the major challenges of the subject - reduced CO2 emission.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
9Patch
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Re: Airbus unveiling three hydrogen concept plane today at 2pm CET

Wed Sep 23, 2020 2:39 am

SR380 wrote:
It still amuses me how people are sure that "this is impossible" and "it will never change". This reminds me when I was still studying mechanics. I was the only one believing that EV would take over, and sooner or later all major car companies would embrace that energy. Fortunately for all the Nah sayer I was damn wrong ! Anyway, on a lighter note, some pictures have licked already:

https://simpleflying.com/airbus-zero-em ... source=pop

It still amuses me that in 1954, Lewis L. Strauss, chairman of the U.S. Atomic Energy Commission, said that nuclear electricity would be “too cheap to meter.”
 
cirrusdragoon
Posts: 278
Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2018 6:42 pm

Re: Updated: Airbus unveils three hydrogen concepts

Wed Sep 23, 2020 5:15 am

prebennorholm wrote:
"Hybrid hydrogen turbofan engines", they write without any hint what the word "hybrid" means here.

"tanks located behind the rear pressure bulkhead", and no hint how it affects CG as fuel is consumed.

Those and other such simplifications tell me that this whole thing is eye candy and nothing else.

It doesn't matter. It will never happen. Not because it is too hard to produce the hydrogen powered planes, that will be the easy stuff. When it is realized what it means to make an airport size liquid hydrogen storage facility and tanking infrastructure, then such things will be allowed by the public only out in the desert 300 miles away from nearest inhabited area. Not exactly where airports are most needed.

People will rather be surrounded by a dozen Fukushima-quality nuke plants than be neighbor to a liquid hydrogen airport.

Airbus didn't tell us anything new. They showed us a few pretty pictures, and provided some simplified text which doesn't really cover the major challenges of the subject - reduced CO2 emission.


Oh your crystal ball is just cloudy gurl.
 
Unflug
Posts: 729
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2012 5:25 pm

Re: Airbus unveiling three hydrogen concept plane today at 2pm CET

Wed Sep 23, 2020 5:50 am

keesje wrote:
If you build / integrate a windmill, you have to include all the energy required, to create / form / transport the steel, create the basements in the sea, the cabling, power stations and required infrastructure to manage power variations when there is no / too much wind. And after 20 years thye energy required to dismantle / remove process everything back in an environmentally friendly way. Add everything up and distract that from the electricity generated by the mindmill over those 20 years. Nobody wants to know, we want to take action & see progress, for our grandchildren. So we start counting just production.

https://www.clepair.net/Udo201303payback.html


Better start by doing that total cost calculation for nuclear...
 
Theseus
Posts: 278
Joined: Thu Oct 01, 2009 8:35 pm

Re: Updated: Airbus unveils three hydrogen concepts

Wed Sep 23, 2020 6:43 am

kalvado wrote:
Forcing workers to live right above the production/office floor and limiting hot showers to once a week are two more major things to consider.


For the first point (forcing workers to live right above the production/office floor), it has been in serious consideration this year in the most places, except it is more the opposite, just get the workers turn their own bedroom into their office. (yes, I know, it applies only to people who can work remotely).
 
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Faro
Posts: 2013
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2007 1:08 am

Re: Updated: Airbus unveils three hydrogen concepts

Wed Sep 23, 2020 6:48 am

And what do you do with a hard, a very hard landing like BA38...with the landing gear struts going straight through the fuel tanks?...


Faro
The chalice not my son
 
FluidFlow
Posts: 788
Joined: Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:39 am

Re: Updated: Airbus unveils three hydrogen concepts

Wed Sep 23, 2020 6:51 am

keesje wrote:
Aceskywalker wrote:
keesje wrote:

What an utter non-sense. Who likes pollution? But that doesn't automatically make solar / wind power feasible or a good idea. For aircraft: forget technological breakthroughs solving everything, we haven't seen them over the last 60 years, despite 100's of billions in R&D.

We have to give up blindly believing solar, wind, biomass and hydrogen "solutions", for earth, our grandchildren and other emotional drivers, that we constantly exposed too by media and institution getting rich. Brains, technology and painful compromises are needed to find real solutions. Not violin music, beautiful young people and emotions.This is for real.
|


Out of curiosity, what do you propose we do? Define "painful compromises".


- accept nuclear plants & waste
- keep gas plants as long as we have coal plants
- limit the masses exploring great places globally
- limit car power to e.g 120 shp/ a exhaust maximum
- serious car exhaust filters, eg changed every 5000nm
- fly slower, make more tech stops
- limit harbor access for polluting ships
- limit consumption of meat
- limit flying in cheap goods from China within a week

Stuff we don't like, hurt the economy, limit freedom


The problem with nuclear is, that at the moment we have easy access to nuclear fuel. The main mining areas have a really high concentration of uranium and are almost "ready" to use. And still, the demand and supply is partially covered by decommissioning old nukes and material stored to make nukes. It is like in the old days of gold mining, just follow the ore and you are good to go.

If you see how gold is mined now, that will be where uranium mining will be in a few years if we increase the amount of nuclear power plants. The costs for nuclear fuel will skyrocket and as well the costs for storage facilities. The total cost of nuclear energy is really really high. If all of it would have to be covered by the price of electricity no one could afford to switch on the oven at home. This is excluding carbon offset costs for the mining, refining, storing, building and decommissioning.
 
kalvado
Posts: 2971
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 am

Re: Updated: Airbus unveils three hydrogen concepts

Wed Sep 23, 2020 8:12 am

Theseus wrote:
kalvado wrote:
Forcing workers to live right above the production/office floor and limiting hot showers to once a week are two more major things to consider.


For the first point (forcing workers to live right above the production/office floor), it has been in serious consideration this year in the most places, except it is more the opposite, just get the workers turn their own bedroom into their office. (yes, I know, it applies only to people who can work remotely).

That also reduced amount of showering, actually. As a visible effect, quite a few men - me included - reduced shaving frequency as masks cover most of it anyway.
 
kalvado
Posts: 2971
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 am

Re: Updated: Airbus unveils three hydrogen concepts

Wed Sep 23, 2020 8:15 am

Faro wrote:
And what do you do with a hard, a very hard landing like BA38...with the landing gear struts going straight through the fuel tanks?...


Faro

Fairly simple answer - no more wing tanks as both pressure vessels and cryogenic vessels are not suitable for wing install. Back of the fuselage is windowless on at least one drawing- guess why?
If wings can be used for luggage, or will morph into super-aerodynamic thin profiles is a different story
 
JonesNL
Posts: 226
Joined: Tue Aug 06, 2019 2:40 pm

Re: Updated: Airbus unveils three hydrogen concepts

Wed Sep 23, 2020 8:50 am

keesje wrote:
Aceskywalker wrote:
keesje wrote:

What an utter non-sense. Who likes pollution? But that doesn't automatically make solar / wind power feasible or a good idea. For aircraft: forget technological breakthroughs solving everything, we haven't seen them over the last 60 years, despite 100's of billions in R&D.

We have to give up blindly believing solar, wind, biomass and hydrogen "solutions", for earth, our grandchildren and other emotional drivers, that we constantly exposed too by media and institution getting rich. Brains, technology and painful compromises are needed to find real solutions. Not violin music, beautiful young people and emotions.This is for real.
|


Out of curiosity, what do you propose we do? Define "painful compromises".


- accept nuclear plants & waste
- keep gas plants as long as we have coal plants
- limit the masses exploring great places globally
- limit car power to e.g 120 shp/ a exhaust maximum
- serious car exhaust filters, eg changed every 5000nm
- fly slower, make more tech stops
- limit harbor access for polluting ships
- limit consumption of meat
- limit flying in cheap goods from China within a week

Stuff we don't like, hurt the economy, limit freedom


You suggest that investing in solar and wind is blind and this is the list of solutions you come up with :lol: :lol: :lol: .
 
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LaunchDetected
Posts: 323
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2012 4:42 pm

Re: Updated: Airbus unveils three hydrogen concepts

Wed Sep 23, 2020 8:57 am

No fuel in the wing. Fuel tanks will be located in the aft section, with the fuel cell.

For the blended-wing design, there is more choice I guess
Caravelle lover
 
User avatar
keesje
Posts: 14118
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

Re: Updated: Airbus unveils three hydrogen concepts

Wed Sep 23, 2020 9:28 am

JonesNL wrote:
keesje wrote:
Aceskywalker wrote:

Out of curiosity, what do you propose we do? Define "painful compromises".


- accept nuclear plants & waste
- keep gas plants as long as we have coal plants
- limit the masses exploring great places globally
- limit car power to e.g 120 shp/ a exhaust maximum
- serious car exhaust filters, eg changed every 5000nm
- fly slower, make more tech stops
- limit harbor access for polluting ships
- limit consumption of meat
- limit flying in cheap goods from China within a week

Stuff we don't like, hurt the economy, limit freedom


You suggest that investing in solar and wind is blind and this is the list of solutions you come up with :lol: :lol: :lol: .


It's just examples of measurements being employed or considered, that we don't like, Aceskywalker asked for.

All better than the current "just put windmills in the sea" & everything will be alright naivety. In NL our biomass (half our sustainable energy, E14 Billion reserved..) has now officially been recognized as a non-sense feel-good job creation for the environment. While nearly everybody was cheering it for 2 decades. Specialist, industry, media.. https://www.euractiv.com/section/energy ... stainable/

It is so deeply embarrassing & naive, nobody (politics, media, public) wants to even talk about it. Because we all were so visibly complicit in stupidity and lack of understanding. While smart folks made money. And that's how much of the environmental discussions go. Everybody understands we need to act on the environment, doesn't really understand, and joins in feel good efforts where window dressing, huge subsidies & job creation are key. And if you don't join in, you're suspect. https://i2.wp.com/static.gamespot.com/u ... jpg?zoom=2

Meanwhile creating the perceptions we are front runners, really, because that's what we do like to hear.. https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistic ... ograph.jpg
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 1959
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: Updated: Airbus unveils three hydrogen concepts

Wed Sep 23, 2020 2:03 pm

kalvado wrote:
keesje wrote:
Aceskywalker wrote:

Out of curiosity, what do you propose we do? Define "painful compromises".


- accept nuclear plants & waste
- keep gas plants as long as we have coal plants
- limit the masses exploring great places globally
- limit car power to e.g 120 shp/ a exhaust maximum
- serious car exhaust filters, eg changed every 5000nm
- fly slower, make more tech stops
- limit harbor access for polluting ships
- limit consumption of meat
- limit flying in cheap goods from China within a week

Stuff we don't like, hurt the economy, limit freedom

Car ehxaust filters are, probably, not a real thing on the list.
Forcing workers to live right above the production/office floor and limiting hot showers to once a week are two more major things to consider.

Car exhaust filters are a real thing, today. Particulate filters are mandated on Diesel engines, and are making their ways on Gasoline direct-injected engines (since they generate a lot of particles, due the direct injection).
 
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Faro
Posts: 2013
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2007 1:08 am

Re: Updated: Airbus unveils three hydrogen concepts

Wed Sep 23, 2020 2:06 pm

kalvado wrote:
Faro wrote:
And what do you do with a hard, a very hard landing like BA38...with the landing gear struts going straight through the fuel tanks?...


Faro

Fairly simple answer - no more wing tanks as both pressure vessels and cryogenic vessels are not suitable for wing install. Back of the fuselage is windowless on at least one drawing- guess why?
If wings can be used for luggage, or will morph into super-aerodynamic thin profiles is a different story



True...hadn't thought of that..


Faro
The chalice not my son
 
frmrCapCadet
Posts: 4532
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

Re: Updated: Airbus unveils three hydrogen concepts

Wed Sep 23, 2020 2:39 pm

I'm not much of a hydrogen fan (odd pun) mostly on the economics. But this sort of R and D develop technology that can have far wider application. I suspect there will be niches where hydrogen as fuel work well.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
kalvado
Posts: 2971
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 am

Re: Updated: Airbus unveils three hydrogen concepts

Wed Sep 23, 2020 4:01 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
kalvado wrote:
keesje wrote:

- accept nuclear plants & waste
- keep gas plants as long as we have coal plants
- limit the masses exploring great places globally
- limit car power to e.g 120 shp/ a exhaust maximum
- serious car exhaust filters, eg changed every 5000nm
- fly slower, make more tech stops
- limit harbor access for polluting ships
- limit consumption of meat
- limit flying in cheap goods from China within a week

Stuff we don't like, hurt the economy, limit freedom

Car ehxaust filters are, probably, not a real thing on the list.
Forcing workers to live right above the production/office floor and limiting hot showers to once a week are two more major things to consider.

Car exhaust filters are a real thing, today. Particulate filters are mandated on Diesel engines, and are making their ways on Gasoline direct-injected engines (since they generate a lot of particles, due the direct injection).

Catalytic converters are a must - but they aim at local air quality, not at carbon levels. If anything, they improve local air quality at a cost of more emitted CO2. Same with particulates - I don't quite believe the concentration is significantly high, but any filter would increase fuel burn and carbon dioxide emission.
 
morrisond
Posts: 2945
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 12:22 am

Re: Updated: Airbus unveils three hydrogen concepts

Wed Sep 23, 2020 5:05 pm

Actually - Hydrogen could be the one thing that saves at least the A380 cross section - Put tanks up top (solving COG problems) and passengers on the main deck.

Of course appropriately sized new carbon wing and gear.
 
User avatar
keesje
Posts: 14118
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

Re: Updated: Airbus unveils three hydrogen concepts

Wed Sep 23, 2020 8:43 pm

morrisond wrote:
Actually - Hydrogen could be the one thing that saves at least the A380 cross section - Put tanks up top (solving COG problems) and passengers on the main deck.

Of course appropriately sized new carbon wing and gear.


I think volume is only part of the challenge, pressure & temperatures are extreme.

Image
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
Sokes
Posts: 2438
Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:48 pm

Re: Airbus unveiling three hydrogen concept plane today at 2pm CET

Thu Sep 24, 2020 1:13 am

Kiwirob wrote:
The peak was just over 84% in 1980, it's been going backwards ever since, it's mostly due to environmental resistance to any new dams. Although this would change if the Lake Onslow pumped hydo storage scheme is approved, the capacity will be approx 5000 GW.

I was wondering what to do with 5000 GW, but it's only 5000 GWh.

"Associate Prof Bardsley said an expanded Lake Onslow for a PHS scheme would add about 50sqkm to the lake's 8sqkm surface and have storage capacity of about 5000 GWh - bigger than the maximum energy storage of New Zealand's hydro lakes combined."
https://www.odt.co.nz/regions/central-o ... reassessed

A 50 sqkm lake with a mean operational head of 615 m is a good idea. The question is how big the lower lake is and if there is settlement on its shore. The people there may not like it if their lake just becomes a basin which is empty or half empty most of the time.
I think preventing climate change has some cost, not only financial. But many "environmentalists" refuse any changes.
I don't speak of Keesje's criticism.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
Sokes
Posts: 2438
Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:48 pm

Re: Airbus unveiling three hydrogen concept plane today at 2pm CET

Thu Sep 24, 2020 1:52 am

mxaxai wrote:
You have to use resources where you find them. There's no point in trying to grow bananas in Maine but it's a profitable business in Brazil.

Trivial, but true. Many Germans seem to think that solar cells in Germany can ensure Germany's electricity supply.
They should give you the Nobel Memorial Prize in Economic Sciences.


keesje wrote:
The looks are more a human problem, a price we would have to pay, if wind energy was a real good idea.

Image

Your photo is from a bird's eye perspective, which kind of defeats your argument.
That apart I agree. IIRC the Netherlands have an even higher population density than Germany. If a third of the population hates wind turbines one has to shift production to low population density areas.

Attach a price to it! If the local communities get e.g. 1 cent/ kWh low population density areas will agree. Low population density areas are mostly poor areas. People may like if wind turbines help finance their Kindergarten and their old age home.

I and some friends once made a bicycle tour in which we had to cross Hardangervidda. It's a mountain plateau in Southern Norway. I don't know if there is good wind all year round, but we struggled to cycle against the wind. Moreover there was no population and scenery was plain boring. I wondered that time why there are no wind turbines, but that was probably 25 years back.

The places with the highest population density on earth may not be the best places for wind turbines.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
Sokes
Posts: 2438
Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:48 pm

Re: Airbus unveiling three hydrogen concept plane today at 2pm CET

Thu Sep 24, 2020 3:16 am

Sokes wrote:
The question is how big the lower lake is and if there is settlement on its shore. The people there may not like it if their lake just becomes a basin which is empty or half empty most of the time.

Sorry, wrong info.
Lake Onslow would be a seasonal storage. In summer, with high water flows in rivers and cheap electricity water would be pumped up. In winter with low water flows and high electricity prices water would run turbines.
It's even meant to stabilize electricity production in years of low rain.
https://medium.com/land-buildings-ident ... 4538cbdb87

That apart: Pumped storage requires two lakes.
It is said continental Europe has hardly pumped storage potential. I believe that's because of the assumption that natural lakes which could serve as lower reservoirs must continue to enjoy boating possibilities and good views.

Compromise: One could settle Bangladeshis on the shore of these lakes. People from industrial nations can continue to enjoy boating and the views and Bangladeshis continue to have a place to stay. :idea:
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
marcelh
Posts: 1137
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:43 pm

Re: Updated: Airbus unveils three hydrogen concepts

Thu Sep 24, 2020 8:30 am

keesje wrote:
Aceskywalker wrote:
keesje wrote:

What an utter non-sense. Who likes pollution? But that doesn't automatically make solar / wind power feasible or a good idea. For aircraft: forget technological breakthroughs solving everything, we haven't seen them over the last 60 years, despite 100's of billions in R&D.

We have to give up blindly believing solar, wind, biomass and hydrogen "solutions", for earth, our grandchildren and other emotional drivers, that we constantly exposed too by media and institution getting rich. Brains, technology and painful compromises are needed to find real solutions. Not violin music, beautiful young people and emotions.This is for real.
|


Out of curiosity, what do you propose we do? Define "painful compromises".


- accept nuclear plants & waste
- keep gas plants as long as we have coal plants
- limit the masses exploring great places globally
- limit car power to e.g 120 shp/ a exhaust maximum
- serious car exhaust filters, eg changed every 5000nm
- fly slower, make more tech stops
- limit harbor access for polluting ships
- limit consumption of meat
- limit flying in cheap goods from China within a week

Stuff we don't like, hurt the economy, limit freedom

You forgot one: birth control. IMHO the main problem is that there are too many “resource users”.
 
basspaul
Posts: 46
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:18 pm

Re: Updated: Airbus unveils three hydrogen concepts

Fri Sep 25, 2020 2:53 pm

lightsaber wrote:
I've worked a career on more environmentally friendly aircraft. Anything 15 years out is for PR. Technology I worked on in 1998 entered the fleet in 2016 and it was less radical.

I'm very proud of getting technology into aircraft, from 1950s Whittle patents! In late 1990s to now. :wideeyed:

Lightsaber

PS, my absolute favorite Whittle patent, is still 15 years out... :cry2: Technology I started working in 1996... CMCs are a required enabling technology.


so true.

If you told someone 25-30 years ago about the fuel efficiency that the A220 gets today in service, they'd probably would look at you funny.

I was on a contract at PWC back in the day when the technology demonstrator was running in the test cells. That frankensteined engine's fuel consumption was hard to believe. But once you have a grasp of how a free turbine works and the tradeoff needed for a turbofan, the geared fan solution was a concept that had to be investigated.

Same thing with hydrogen power, if you don't try, you'll never know. Is it a bigger gamble than the GTF, yes, but it should be explored.

Of the three, the regional turboprop seems to be the most viable with it's stated short range.

The big risk in operation I see is refueling itself. With jet fuel, something leaks, stop fueling, call the fire brigade as a precaution and then the cleanup crew. The risk of fire is fairly low. With hydrogen, if a leak occurs during fueling, now you have an invisible, potentially flammable, gas cloud floating around the plane looking for an ignition source. Even with it lighter than air, the terminal and lights at airport are taller than the plane.
 
mxaxai
Posts: 2174
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:29 am

Re: Updated: Airbus unveils three hydrogen concepts

Fri Sep 25, 2020 3:50 pm

marcelh wrote:
You forgot one: birth control. IMHO the main problem is that there are too many “resource users”.

Nah, more babies means more passengers and is better for business. The A380 was too large for 7 billion people but once we pass 10 billion it might become attractive again.
 
marcelh
Posts: 1137
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:43 pm

Re: Updated: Airbus unveils three hydrogen concepts

Fri Sep 25, 2020 9:41 pm

mxaxai wrote:
marcelh wrote:
You forgot one: birth control. IMHO the main problem is that there are too many “resource users”.

Nah, more babies means more passengers and is better for business. The A380 was too large for 7 billion people but once we pass 10 billion it mights become attractive again.

I hope you are sarcastic.....

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