NAV CANADA, the private, non-profit corporation providing air traffic control, airport advisory services, weather briefings and aeronautical information services for Canada, has announced a workforce reduction of 720 of its 5,100 employees (around 14% of the total workforce).

While there will be no disruption to air traffic services, the reduction in force includes hundreds of trainee air traffic controllers, some of whom were already years into their training. The company also plans to close its flight information centers in Winnipeg and Halifax, and will continue to reevaluate staffing requirements.

It's sad to see so many young controllers lose their opportunity. Some trainees who were let go were weeks away from certification. It's unclear if they'll have another opportunity.

https://www.globenewswire.com/news-rele ... tions.html

That’s ridiculous to let go of people who were weeks away from finishing

And then when traffic picks up it'll be a ballsup again to scramble to get enough bums in chairs... Farking stupid.

The ANSP should not be in it solely for profit, but we should be allowed to keep some $$ to buffer ourselves and not run on the breadline all the time.

Sigh. Nobody ever learns...

Ive changed my entire thought process on seniority priority. It would never sit well with my colleagues but you can’t sacrifice the future for near term seniority privilege when the very people you displace will be the ones taking the industry through the next decades, not single digit years. I’m not saying you cut from the top down but there could be a better mix of redundancy’s so there isn’t mass pandemonium trying to train up people in the future as waves of retirements hit. The industry needs to right size itself but punting all the young talent will be problematic down the road. I’m not smart enough to have the answers but this is the only time in my life where my view on seniority has changed. After fighting for years to make sure I had a seat at the seniority table I’m now looking around at a changed industry with changing thoughts on the matter.

MIflyer12 wrote:

Everybody in the U.S. arguing for privatization of the ATC system 'to get out from under government control' should think long and hard about this.

If you want a job where you're basically guaranteed a slot for life, go be a high school math teacher. It's been shown that even the Post Office and IBM won't provide that any longer.

Nav Canada is private, but it's also non-profit. Apart from the fact that it's expected to get by on fees charged to users, that makes the company not much different from a government agency. Government agencies are also expected to stay within their budgets and often lay off employees when faced with shortfalls. The remedy would be the same if the Canadian government felt the need to intervene -- a subsidy from the general fund.

75driver wrote:

Ive changed my entire thought process on seniority priority. It would never sit well with my colleagues but you can’t sacrifice the future for near term seniority privilege when the very people you displace will be the ones taking the industry through the next decades, not single digit years. I’m not saying you cut from the top down but there could be a better mix of redundancy’s so there isn’t mass pandemonium trying to train up people in the future as waves of retirements hit. The industry needs to right size itself but punting all the young talent will be problematic down the road. I’m not smart enough to have the answers but this is the only time in my life where my view on seniority has changed. After fighting for years to make sure I had a seat at the seniority table I’m now looking around at a changed industry with changing thoughts on the matter.

My organization tends to cut the pyramid from the side, but being private it's a more merit and value-based decision and time-in-service doesn't enter into it (except if your high salary gets noticed, in a bad way). Either way, it's a hard topic to grapple with. The worst part of being a manager, I've learned, is having to lay someone off when it wasn't their fault.

MIflyer12 wrote:

atcsundevil wrote:

It's sad to see so many young controllers lose their opportunity. Some trainees who were let go were weeks away from certification. It's unclear if they'll have another opportunity.

With so many fewer flights expected over the next 2-3 years, how did you expect this to unfold, really?

Well, given that certification for Enroute controllers here in the USA can take upwards of 5 years at busy places like Oakland Center, waiting until traffic levels are "normal" to scramble and re-hire and train vs finishing training, laying people off, and then calling them back as certified controllers when the work is there for them down the road is stupid. Kicking the can down the road is all they're doing, huge difference between furloughing certified controllers and just ending training.

smithbs wrote:

75driver wrote:

Ive changed my entire thought process on seniority priority. It would never sit well with my colleagues but you can’t sacrifice the future for near term seniority privilege when the very people you displace will be the ones taking the industry through the next decades, not single digit years. I’m not saying you cut from the top down but there could be a better mix of redundancy’s so there isn’t mass pandemonium trying to train up people in the future as waves of retirements hit. The industry needs to right size itself but punting all the young talent will be problematic down the road. I’m not smart enough to have the answers but this is the only time in my life where my view on seniority has changed. After fighting for years to make sure I had a seat at the seniority table I’m now looking around at a changed industry with changing thoughts on the matter.

My organization tends to cut the pyramid from the side, but being private it's a more merit and value-based decision and time-in-service doesn't enter into it (except if your high salary gets noticed, in a bad way). Either way, it's a hard topic to grapple with. The worst part of being a manager, I've learned, is having to lay someone off when it wasn't their fault.

Yes! Merit based decisions get lost in the seniority hierarchy. I’ve worked with rookie FO’s who could fly circles around older pilots who were standing pat on their lengthy service vs trying to perform better. I’d rather see these talented go getters retained over the dude who sits high on the list with no chance of furlough or layoff. We’ve lost our way to some degree when performance isn’t rewarded like service length is. The ones who excel should be rewarded as much as the ones who have hung on. It’s a slippery slope but while the industry right sizes for the future we shouldn’t lose a generation that will be your senior leaders 20 years from now.

32andBelow wrote:

That’s ridiculous to let go of people who were weeks away from finishing

I couldn't imagine going through the academy and coming within weeks of CPC for this to happen. It's bad enough with all of the trainees in my facility (and everywhere, of course) who were days or weeks from CPC or a pay bump when training was suspended, but to be separated entirely is soul crushing. Not only did they go through training for nothing, but their dream is being snatched away from them.

There are hundreds of other people laid off in FSS that will be closed, along with management (sad /sarcasm). It's unfortunate to see anybody lose their job, but with ATC, our skillsets aren't easily transferable.

KingOrGod wrote:

And then when traffic picks up it'll be a ballsup again to scramble to get enough bums in chairs... Farking stupid.

The ANSP should not be in it solely for profit, but we should be allowed to keep some $$ to buffer ourselves and not run on the breadline all the time.

Sigh. Nobody ever learns...

Most Canadian controllers I have talked to have said they've seen a massive improvement in working conditions since privatization. Unfortunately that doesn't take into account a global health and economic crisis that devastates the aviation sector. It's no doubt something all of us in the US will be weary of the next time privatization discussion arises. I genuinely hope for their sake that there aren't more redundancies. It sounds like some junior controllers are getting worried. I can't even imagine how I would feel if I were in their shoes, but it wouldn't be a good feeling. You're right though — everyone will seriously need to evaluate lessons learned to mitigate potential impacts in the future.

MIflyer12 wrote:

With so many fewer flights expected over the next 2-3 years, how did you expect this to unfold, really?

Everybody in the U.S. arguing for privatization of the ATC system 'to get out from under government control' should think long and hard about this.

If you want a job where you're basically guaranteed a slot for life, go be a high school math teacher. It's been shown that even the Post Office and IBM won't provide that any longer.

Fortunately for us, the FAA already had us staffed at 2020 levels prior to the pandemic! For some reason they've still been moving new hires along with the hiring process, but I think these people should have low expectations of an academy spot any time in the near future. Theoretically the FAA could have a RIF, but it's never been done, and there would be some pretty significant political backlash. I think our biggest issue will be coping with a staffing shortage when traffic numbers return in four to five years. A year plus halt in the pipeline combined with retirements (there will potentially be a large wave of retirements depending on the outcome of the upcoming election, but I don't want to get into politics) could put the FAA in a worse staffing position than we were prior to 2020. Many facilities are resuming training for partially qualified controllers now...the consequence of that is that they're training with significantly reduced traffic. Like so many things in 2020, the situation is lousy no matter how you look at it.

atcsundevil wrote:

32andBelow wrote:

That’s ridiculous to let go of people who were weeks away from finishing

I couldn't imagine going through the academy and coming within weeks of CPC for this to happen. It's bad enough with all of the trainees in my facility (and everywhere, of course) who were days or weeks from CPC or a pay bump when training was suspended, but to be separated entirely is soul crushing. Not only did they go through training for nothing, but their dream is being snatched away from them.

There are hundreds of other people laid off in FSS that will be closed, along with management (sad /sarcasm). It's unfortunate to see anybody lose their job, but with ATC, our skillsets aren't easily transferable.

KingOrGod wrote:

And then when traffic picks up it'll be a ballsup again to scramble to get enough bums in chairs... Farking stupid.

The ANSP should not be in it solely for profit, but we should be allowed to keep some $$ to buffer ourselves and not run on the breadline all the time.

Sigh. Nobody ever learns...

Most Canadian controllers I have talked to have said they've seen a massive improvement in working conditions since privatization. Unfortunately that doesn't take into account a global health and economic crisis that devastates the aviation sector. It's no doubt something all of us in the US will be weary of the next time privatization discussion arises. I genuinely hope for their sake that there aren't more redundancies. It sounds like some junior controllers are getting worried. I can't even imagine how I would feel if I were in their shoes, but it wouldn't be a good feeling. You're right though — everyone will seriously need to evaluate lessons learned to mitigate potential impacts in the future.

MIflyer12 wrote:

With so many fewer flights expected over the next 2-3 years, how did you expect this to unfold, really?

Everybody in the U.S. arguing for privatization of the ATC system 'to get out from under government control' should think long and hard about this.

If you want a job where you're basically guaranteed a slot for life, go be a high school math teacher. It's been shown that even the Post Office and IBM won't provide that any longer.

Fortunately for us, the FAA already had us staffed at 2020 levels prior to the pandemic! For some reason they've still been moving new hires along with the hiring process, but I think these people should have low expectations of an academy spot any time in the near future. Theoretically the FAA could have a RIF, but it's never been done, and there would be some pretty significant political backlash. I think our biggest issue will be coping with a staffing shortage when traffic numbers return in four to five years. A year plus halt in the pipeline combined with retirements (there will potentially be a large wave of retirements depending on the outcome of the upcoming election, but I don't want to get into politics) could put the FAA in a worse staffing position than we were prior to 2020. Many facilities are resuming training for partially qualified controllers now...the consequence of that is that they're training with significantly reduced traffic. Like so many things in 2020, the situation is lousy no matter how you look at it.

OKC is open, has been since July although I don't know how large class sizes are. I have a friend that started basics back in March but had to leave after week 1. She continued to do basics via Zoom and then drove back to OKC in late July.

FX1816 wrote:

atcsundevil wrote:

32andBelow wrote:

That’s ridiculous to let go of people who were weeks away from finishing

I couldn't imagine going through the academy and coming within weeks of CPC for this to happen. It's bad enough with all of the trainees in my facility (and everywhere, of course) who were days or weeks from CPC or a pay bump when training was suspended, but to be separated entirely is soul crushing. Not only did they go through training for nothing, but their dream is being snatched away from them.

There are hundreds of other people laid off in FSS that will be closed, along with management (sad /sarcasm). It's unfortunate to see anybody lose their job, but with ATC, our skillsets aren't easily transferable.

KingOrGod wrote:

And then when traffic picks up it'll be a ballsup again to scramble to get enough bums in chairs... Farking stupid.

The ANSP should not be in it solely for profit, but we should be allowed to keep some $$ to buffer ourselves and not run on the breadline all the time.

Sigh. Nobody ever learns...

Most Canadian controllers I have talked to have said they've seen a massive improvement in working conditions since privatization. Unfortunately that doesn't take into account a global health and economic crisis that devastates the aviation sector. It's no doubt something all of us in the US will be weary of the next time privatization discussion arises. I genuinely hope for their sake that there aren't more redundancies. It sounds like some junior controllers are getting worried. I can't even imagine how I would feel if I were in their shoes, but it wouldn't be a good feeling. You're right though — everyone will seriously need to evaluate lessons learned to mitigate potential impacts in the future.

MIflyer12 wrote:

With so many fewer flights expected over the next 2-3 years, how did you expect this to unfold, really?

Everybody in the U.S. arguing for privatization of the ATC system 'to get out from under government control' should think long and hard about this.

If you want a job where you're basically guaranteed a slot for life, go be a high school math teacher. It's been shown that even the Post Office and IBM won't provide that any longer.

Fortunately for us, the FAA already had us staffed at 2020 levels prior to the pandemic! For some reason they've still been moving new hires along with the hiring process, but I think these people should have low expectations of an academy spot any time in the near future. Theoretically the FAA could have a RIF, but it's never been done, and there would be some pretty significant political backlash. I think our biggest issue will be coping with a staffing shortage when traffic numbers return in four to five years. A year plus halt in the pipeline combined with retirements (there will potentially be a large wave of retirements depending on the outcome of the upcoming election, but I don't want to get into politics) could put the FAA in a worse staffing position than we were prior to 2020. Many facilities are resuming training for partially qualified controllers now...the consequence of that is that they're training with significantly reduced traffic. Like so many things in 2020, the situation is lousy no matter how you look at it.

OKC is open, has been since July although I don't know how large class sizes are. I have a friend that started basics back in March but had to leave after week 1. She continued to do basics via Zoom and then drove back to OKC in late July.

i think it’s 8 per class. My facility has gotten like 7 new hires that haven’t even stepped in the center yet

Short of the government bailing them out to keep this staff there really isn't anything they can do. If you don't have the revenue you can't pay the staff. The think I wonder is if they looked do do any sort of early retirement option vs just flat out layoffs. Not clear to me from the article.

FX1816 wrote:

OKC is open, has been since July although I don't know how large class sizes are. I have a friend that started basics back in March but had to leave after week 1. She continued to do basics via Zoom and then drove back to OKC in late July.

Not really sure how that's working. I guess they're immediately going on admin leave as soon as they get to the facilities. Only certified controllers and some partially qualifieds have been allowed in our building since March, aside from briefly bringing back the other developmentals so they don't lose their 120 day currency. We're only just drawing up plans to restart training of partially qualified controllers (those with radar sectors), and there are no plans to resume training of controllers with no radar qualifications. Given that anyone coming from the academy is still in their probationary period, the possibility of being separated is much more likely than anyone else. Hopefully not, but I can't imagine a whole bunch of people getting paid to sit at home without having really proved anything is sustainable or justifiable.

I'm wondering how this will work for Canada in the long term too. Finding new controllers isn't a switch that can be turned back on, so I think they could run into some staffing issues if they don't adequately plan ahead. The fact that they seemingly didn't indicate to these separated trainees whether they'd have priority recall indicates to me that they could be looking at further reductions. That could put them in a huge staffing bind a few years down the road.

zuckie13 wrote:

Short of the government bailing them out to keep this staff there really isn't anything they can do. If you don't have the revenue you can't pay the staff. The think I wonder is if they looked do do any sort of early retirement option vs just flat out layoffs. Not clear to me from the article.

My understanding is that these redundancies came after they'd exhausted options for early outs.

atcsundevil wrote:

FX1816 wrote:

OKC is open, has been since July although I don't know how large class sizes are. I have a friend that started basics back in March but had to leave after week 1. She continued to do basics via Zoom and then drove back to OKC in late July.

Not really sure how that's working. I guess they're immediately going on admin leave as soon as they get to the facilities. Only certified controllers and some partially qualifieds have been allowed in our building since March, aside from briefly bringing back the other developmentals so they don't lose their 120 day currency. We're only just drawing up plans to restart training of partially qualified controllers (those with radar sectors), and there are no plans to resume training of controllers with no radar qualifications. Given that anyone coming from the academy is still in their probationary period, the possibility of being separated is much more likely than anyone else. Hopefully not, but I can't imagine a whole bunch of people getting paid to sit at home without having really proved anything is sustainable or justifiable.

I'm wondering how this will work for Canada in the long term too. Finding new controllers isn't a switch that can be turned back on, so I think they could run into some staffing issues if they don't adequately plan ahead. The fact that they seemingly didn't indicate to these separated trainees whether they'd have priority recall indicates to me that they could be looking at further reductions. That could put them in a huge staffing bind a few years down the road.

Yeah I'm not sure either but I'd be curious to find out. I agree though, after they are done at OKC I don't see how they go home and continue to get paid AG pay which has to be close to $50000 now, I mean it was $44000 when I got in back in 2009. They really do need to come up with something though, the age 56 clock doesn't stop with this current situation.

32andBelow wrote:

That’s ridiculous to let go of people who were weeks away from finishing

That's not what is happening. Those trainees close to checking out are kept on the roster, at least in my FIR. In fact, quite a few ATC/FSS personnel have checked out since the pandemic began, which is good to see.

MIflyer12 wrote:

Everybody in the U.S. arguing for privatization of the ATC system 'to get out from under government control' should think long and hard about this.

You realize no NavCan controllers have been laid off right ?

The "720" stated in the press release includes non ATS personnel, voluntary early retirement incentives (that were started in April) and contract personnel whose term has ended.

Almost all affected personnel by this latest cut are either ATC ab-initio trainees, management or FSS. The two FICs closing are filled with FSS personnel. Even though YMM is mentioned in the press release, only 1 control tower seems to be affected by these cuts, YJN, and the controllers at that location will have options to stay on NavCan payroll, albeit at different locations. Hopefully the FSS have similar procedures in place in their collective agreement. It's a tough process, and relocating is not fun, but it's better than being kicked out the door.

Thenoflyzone wrote:

32andBelow wrote:

That’s ridiculous to let go of people who were weeks away from finishing

That's not what is happening. Those trainees close to checking out are kept on the roster, at least in my FIR. In fact, quite a few ATC/FSS personnel have checked out since the pandemic began, which is good to see.

MIflyer12 wrote:

Everybody in the U.S. arguing for privatization of the ATC system 'to get out from under government control' should think long and hard about this.

You realize no NavCan controllers have been laid off right ?

The "720" stated in the press release includes non ATS personnel, voluntary early retirement incentives (that were started in April) and contract personnel whose term has ended.

Almost all affected personnel by this latest cut are either ATC ab-initio trainees, management or FSS. The two FICs closing are filled with FSS personnel. Even though YMM is mentioned in the press release, only 1 control tower seems to be affected by these cuts, YJN, and the controllers at that location will have options to stay on NavCan payroll, albeit at different locations. Hopefully the FSS have similar procedures in place in their collective agreement. It's a tough process, and relocating is not fun, but it's better than being kicked out the door.

Yah in the US the trainees are union members and aren’t sold down the river with no support

I've been through the early stages of the Nav-Canada hiring process about 5-6 years ago, only made it to the interview stage but ultimately wasn't selected for training. The whole process can take anywhere from 3-5 years and if at any point you fail those training exercises you are let go and have to wait a year to start the process over again. At least that's how it was 5-6 years ago when I went through it. I feel terrible for people that were just on the cusp of their certification and were let go. That's years of your life and hard work gone with nothing to show for it. I know 2 fairly Jr controllers and I hope they were spared.

The government really needs to do something about the 14 day mandatory quarantine for all travellers returning from outside the country. It is strangling the entire aviation/travel industry across Canada. Other countries are requiring a negative test 48-72 hours before arrival as an entry requirement or actually doing testing on arrival and you get your results within hours to 1-2 days. I don't know why Canada hasn't adopted any of this, seems Trudeau is content to sit back and watch the industry fall to pieces.

Thenoflyzone wrote:

That's not what is happening. Those trainees close to checking out are kept on the roster, at least in my FIR.

Granted I read this on Reddit, so take that for what it's worth, but a couple of people said that OJTs weeks from certifying were laid off at their facilities. Others said that all OJTs were kept, and only generic and specialty trainees were let go at their facilities. In any case, clearly they didn't axe all trainees, but it sounds like it's still a large number.

Are there any potential implications for controllers with low seniority? Obviously I'm not there, so I have no particular insight, but if a majority of trainees were let go without being given any information in terms of possible recall, it seems to me like there are could be some concern for the remaining OJTs or controllers with low senority. I don't necessarily mean further redundancies, but possibly furloughs? Given the cost of training, I would assume it would have to be pretty dire for them to even consider letting qualified controllers go.

32andBelow wrote:

Yah in the US the trainees are union members and aren’t sold down the river with no support

Your so called "sold down the river with no support" trainees were paid in full, for 6 months, since the pandemic began, for sitting at home and doing nothing.

How many private companies do you know that have done that? It sucks, yes, but let's be honest, NavCan could have done this last March. They didn't. They "supported" them for 6 months. Granted, the government subsidy (CEWS) helped in this regard, but at this point, they had no choice but to start cuts.

atcsundevil wrote:

Are there any potential implications for controllers with low seniority? Obviously I'm not there, so I have no particular insight, but if a majority of trainees were let go without being given any information in terms of possible recall, it seems to me like there are could be some concern for the remaining OJTs or controllers with low senority. I don't necessarily mean further redundancies, but possibly furloughs? Given the cost of training, I would assume it would have to be pretty dire for them to even consider letting qualified controllers go.

With this round of cuts, I don't think so. Maybe it'll affect a number of instructors at the respective schools of each FIR, but otherwise, it isn't that bad. If the air traffic doesn't pick up in a timely fashion, the next round, however, might not be as lenient on qualified controllers. That being said, it is my opinion that the company will not let go of qualified controllers.

Let's be honest though, cutting trainees like this will have a lasting effect on staffing. It will take a decade, maybe more to recuperate from this. If traffic picks up to 2019 levels sooner than planned, a lot of units will be massively short staffed, especially with retirements looming.

Let's not forget we're only about 2000 controllers across the country.

Thenoflyzone wrote:

Let's be honest though, cutting trainees like this will have a lasting effect on staffing. It will take a decade, maybe more to recuperate from this.

Absolutely. Not only are they cutting off the pipeline for new hires, but they're going back to more or less retroactively cut off the pipeline that started a year or two ago. If they don't restart things in the next year or two in earnest, then it could make for a precarious staffing situation later in the decade.

I'd be interested to find out exactly how many trainees were separated. With a controller workforce of only 2,000, even cutting 200 trainees has a massive impact. By comparison, we have 120 trainees in my facility alone, but considering we're already at 30 year staffing lows (which is a bit of a misleading statistic given increased automation, but still relevant), if we were to eliminate all of our AG, D1, and D2 developmentals, our staffing would be abysmal in five years. Hopefully NavCan will plan ahead to restart the training pipeline to minimize those impacts, because we all know the FAA wouldn't.

I'm certainly not of the 'selling anyone down the river' mindset — I wouldn't put it past the FAA to make impactful staffing decisions sooner than later, and particularly if they're probationary, there's not much NATCA can do to stop it. The outcome of our contract negotiations next year could be pretty impactful on a huge number of controllers eligible for retirement as well. Many of them still have a terrible taste in their mouth from the White Book, and they won't go through that again if they're eligible. We're all in the same boat no matter which way you cut it.

Wasn’t there a push some years ago to raise the retirement age from 56? Whatever happened with that? I’ve always thought it seemed low but what do I know. I imagine there is still some fuel in the tank after 56 and if ATC gets in a bind pushing that back a little might be an option. Maybe more currency requirements, testing, etc would be required. Maybe working less busy airspace?

75driver wrote:

Wasn’t there a push some years ago to raise the retirement age from 56? Whatever happened with that? I’ve always thought it seemed low but what do I know. I imagine there is still some fuel in the tank after 56 and if ATC gets in a bind pushing that back a little might be an option. Maybe more currency requirements, testing, etc would be required. Maybe working less busy airspace?

You can get a waiver for another year if your facility needs you

atcsundevil wrote:

Thenoflyzone wrote:

Let's be honest though, cutting trainees like this will have a lasting effect on staffing. It will take a decade, maybe more to recuperate from this.

Absolutely. Not only are they cutting off the pipeline for new hires, but they're going back to more or less retroactively cut off the pipeline that started a year or two ago. If they don't restart things in the next year or two in earnest, then it could make for a precarious staffing situation later in the decade.

I'd be interested to find out exactly how many trainees were separated. With a controller workforce of only 2,000, even cutting 200 trainees has a massive impact. By comparison, we have 120 trainees in my facility alone, but considering we're already at 30 year staffing lows (which is a bit of a misleading statistic given increased automation, but still relevant), if we were to eliminate all of our AG, D1, and D2 developmentals, our staffing would be abysmal in five years. Hopefully NavCan will plan ahead to restart the training pipeline to minimize those impacts, because we all know the FAA wouldn't.

I'm certainly not of the 'selling anyone down the river' mindset — I wouldn't put it past the FAA to make impactful staffing decisions sooner than later, and particularly if they're probationary, there's not much NATCA can do to stop it. The outcome of our contract negotiations next year could be pretty impactful on a huge number of controllers eligible for retirement as well. Many of them still have a terrible taste in their mouth from the White Book, and they won't go through that again if they're eligible. We're all in the same boat no matter which way you cut it.

I think in the US that would look like contracting
More low level towers and then moving those controllers to other openings then maybe hiring less

atcsundevil wrote:

32andBelow wrote:

That’s ridiculous to let go of people who were weeks away from finishing

I couldn't imagine going through the academy and coming within weeks of CPC for this to happen. It's bad enough with all of the trainees in my facility (and everywhere, of course) who were days or weeks from CPC or a pay bump when training was suspended, but to be separated entirely is soul crushing. Not only did they go through training for nothing, but their dream is being snatched away from them.

There are hundreds of other people laid off in FSS that will be closed, along with management (sad /sarcasm). It's unfortunate to see anybody lose their job, but with ATC, our skillsets aren't easily transferable.

KingOrGod wrote:

And then when traffic picks up it'll be a ballsup again to scramble to get enough bums in chairs... Farking stupid.

The ANSP should not be in it solely for profit, but we should be allowed to keep some $$ to buffer ourselves and not run on the breadline all the time.

Sigh. Nobody ever learns...

Most Canadian controllers I have talked to have said they've seen a massive improvement in working conditions since privatization. Unfortunately that doesn't take into account a global health and economic crisis that devastates the aviation sector. It's no doubt something all of us in the US will be weary of the next time privatization discussion arises. I genuinely hope for their sake that there aren't more redundancies. It sounds like some junior controllers are getting worried. I can't even imagine how I would feel if I were in their shoes, but it wouldn't be a good feeling. You're right though — everyone will seriously need to evaluate lessons learned to mitigate potential impacts in the future.

MIflyer12 wrote:

With so many fewer flights expected over the next 2-3 years, how did you expect this to unfold, really?

Everybody in the U.S. arguing for privatization of the ATC system 'to get out from under government control' should think long and hard about this.

If you want a job where you're basically guaranteed a slot for life, go be a high school math teacher. It's been shown that even the Post Office and IBM won't provide that any longer.

Fortunately for us, the FAA already had us staffed at 2020 levels prior to the pandemic! For some reason they've still been moving new hires along with the hiring process, but I think these people should have low expectations of an academy spot any time in the near future. Theoretically the FAA could have a RIF, but it's never been done, and there would be some pretty significant political backlash. I think our biggest issue will be coping with a staffing shortage when traffic numbers return in four to five years. A year plus halt in the pipeline combined with retirements (there will potentially be a large wave of retirements depending on the outcome of the upcoming election, but I don't want to get into politics) could put the FAA in a worse staffing position than we were prior to 2020. Many facilities are resuming training for partially qualified controllers now...the consequence of that is that they're training with significantly reduced traffic. Like so many things in 2020, the situation is lousy no matter how you look at it.

We've seen this enough times for the lessons to be learned, whether it be SARS or GFC or Covid. I work for a non-profit government owned private ATC company. Does that even make sense?

Management changes, the same wet dreams of cutting staffing and merging sectors resulting in impossible traffic flow rears its head every 4 or 5 years when the new boss gets his butt in the chair. Much money spent on feasibility studies only to get shelved as it just. won't. work. And there's always money for that.

Ugh 8 years left and I can wash my hands of this circus. I don't disagree that the benefits and conditions are vastly improved. But we need to have a safety net too. We're facing pay cuts and/or redundancies and I can tell you with a toddler home and a mortgage to pay, it's very unpleasant. But we are in denial until such times as it all actually happens. We are considered essential services and no right to strike, but then at the same time they will treat us like the titanic when the iceberg gets hit. I love my job, but I am tired now.

EDIT: I don't even want to know what the flight crews are going through - I really feel bad for them. I know we all chose our careers, but damn. They're treated even more like trash than we are.

KingOrGod wrote:

We've seen this enough times for the lessons to be learned, whether it be SARS or GFC or Covid. I work for a non-profit government owned private ATC company. Does that even make sense?

Management changes, the same wet dreams of cutting staffing and merging sectors resulting in impossible traffic flow rears its head every 4 or 5 years when the new boss gets his butt in the chair. Much money spent on feasibility studies only to get shelved as it just. won't. work. And there's always money for that.

Ugh 8 years left and I can wash my hands of this circus. I don't disagree that the benefits and conditions are vastly improved. But we need to have a safety net too. We're facing pay cuts and/or redundancies and I can tell you with a toddler home and a mortgage to pay, it's very unpleasant. But we are in denial until such times as it all actually happens. We are considered essential services and no right to strike, but then at the same time they will treat us like the titanic when the iceberg gets hit. I love my job, but I am tired now.

EDIT: I don't even want to know what the flight crews are going through - I really feel bad for them. I know we all chose our careers, but damn. They're treated even more like trash than we are.

Thanks for your insight. I think it's times like this that make us weary every time privatization talks come up in the US. This is exactly what worries us. Hopefully you guys won't face any more redundancies. When you're already in a fairly stressful job, the last thing you want to worry about is whether or not you'll get to keep your job.

32andBelow wrote:

I think in the US that would look like contracting
More low level towers and then moving those controllers to other openings then maybe hiring less

Probably. Our staffing was garbage at most facilities before all of this happened anyway. I'm wondering if it'll just be an excuse to revert a bunch of VFR towers to FCT.

Don't forget that there is a union at Nav Canada and how cuts to the workforce are made is likely part of the collective agreement. Though I can't speak for this case, many union agreements protect seniority during cuts.

basspaul wrote:

Don't forget that there is a union at Nav Canada and how cuts to the workforce are made is likely part of the collective agreement. Though I can't speak for this case, many union agreements protect seniority during cuts.

At my place of work, from what I have heard as it's not official yet, they are aiming for a 20 - 40% pay cut across all controllers, in lieu of cutting jobs... 40% is going to be a bitter pill to swallow for everybody, and being cut altogether is an even worse pill for those affected to swallow. No points for seniority or loyalty - no scaled reductions.

And they know we have no fall back job options...We've basically been abandoned. There are major international airlines in a land not far away, that received €9 BILLION bailout, and €3B loan (€12B total!) in lieu of paycuts...

Where's the loyalty for all the controllers that have eaten managements sh1t for so long? Staff shortage. No problem. Work us til we bleed and burn out, and then call us immoral when we eventually say enough is enough. Did they raise our pay 20-40% - no. Now the tables turn, and it seems like it's going to be "Oh we're sorry we're firing all trainess and cutting controllers pay. No problem".

Where are our respective governments that are constantly pushing us to cut costs and manage near impossible traffic loads (I'm referring to 2019 and the predictions for 2020 prior corona) - and then prevent us from keeping any money we make despite that. Throw the dog a bone occasionally. This isn't going to end well for a lot of people. There are going to be a lot of controllers suffering either depression or ending up alcoholic.

KingOrGod wrote:

And then when traffic picks up it'll be a ballsup again to scramble to get enough bums in chairs... Farking stupid.

The ANSP should not be in it solely for profit, but we should be allowed to keep some $$ to buffer ourselves and not run on the breadline all the time.

Sigh. Nobody ever learns...

Oh people learn... the older generation will protect itself at the expense of the younger one.

It's a very upside-down model where those closest to retirement are kept on the payroll instead of seeking their early retirements to usher in a new age of younger professionals who can carry us through the foreseeable future.

Thenoflyzone wrote:

32andBelow wrote:

Yah in the US the trainees are union members and aren’t sold down the river with no support

Your so called "sold down the river with no support" trainees were paid in full, for 6 months, since the pandemic began, for sitting at home and doing nothing.

How many private companies do you know that have done that? It sucks, yes, but let's be honest, NavCan could have done this last March. They didn't. They "supported" them for 6 months. Granted, the government subsidy (CEWS) helped in this regard, but at this point, they had no choice but to start cuts.

During the throne speech a couple days ago it was mentioned that the wage subsidy would be extended to Summer 2021, do you think this might have an affect on the cuts, or do you still see them happening?

KingOrGod wrote:

basspaul wrote:

Don't forget that there is a union at Nav Canada and how cuts to the workforce are made is likely part of the collective agreement. Though I can't speak for this case, many union agreements protect seniority during cuts.

At my place of work, from what I have heard as it's not official yet, they are aiming for a 20 - 40% pay cut across all controllers, in lieu of cutting jobs... 40% is going to be a bitter pill to swallow for everybody, and being cut altogether is an even worse pill for those affected to swallow. No points for seniority or loyalty - no scaled reductions.

And they know we have no fall back job options...We've basically been abandoned. There are major international airlines in a land not far away, that received €9 BILLION bailout, and €3B loan (€12B total!) in lieu of paycuts...

Where's the loyalty for all the controllers that have eaten managements sh1t for so long? Staff shortage. No problem. Work us til we bleed and burn out, and then call us immoral when we eventually say enough is enough. Did they raise our pay 20-40% - no. Now the tables turn, and it seems like it's going to be "Oh we're sorry we're firing all trainess and cutting controllers pay. No problem".

Where are our respective governments that are constantly pushing us to cut costs and manage near impossible traffic loads (I'm referring to 2019 and the predictions for 2020 prior corona) - and then prevent us from keeping any money we make despite that. Throw the dog a bone occasionally. This isn't going to end well for a lot of people. There are going to be a lot of controllers suffering either depression or ending up alcoholic.

It’s interesting to hear about ATC morale with regards to work conditions. The tower at my local airport started closing for breaks recently, and I wonder now if that has anything to do with the current situation at NavCan.

brodeurprice wrote:

During the throne speech a couple days ago it was mentioned that the wage subsidy would be extended to Summer 2021, do you think this might have an affect on the cuts, or do you still see them happening?

The cuts will happen regardless. It’s no coincidence they issued the press release before the throne speech. This way, they can always say “well we didn’t know the CEWS was going to get extended”.

It really is a messed up situation. I feel horrible for everyone up there who got word that they will be furloughed. The least they can do it is give them priority in the hiring process when things open back up again.

I would like to reiterate that PRIVATIZATION IS BS and if I hear some garbage from NATCA National (who by the way has been super clear with communication regarding training starting, sending Admin leave trainees and high risk back... NOT) or Paul and Trish fawn over being privatized one more time, I'm going to lose it. I will gladly go through government shutdowns, CR negotiations, government red tape bureaucracy etc. if it means we can enjoy the type of job security and pay that we do. I get it NATCA wanted stable funding but seriously you think being privatized was the way to do that? Anyone with 2 brain cells in their head could see a downturn affecting things way more with a private (even a non-profit) company then with a government EMPLOYER THAT CAN LITERALLY PRINT MONEY.

I get that someday we might be privatized and if so they are right to want to have a seat at the table (this landing clearance brought to you by Taco Bell) but there is a difference between pushing for privatization and being prepared for having a voice if it does happen. Nearly every controller I've talked to in numerous facilities thinks privatizing is a bad idea. Wonder why.

ATCSuggester wrote:

It really is a messed up situation. I feel horrible for everyone up there who got word that they will be furloughed. The least they can do it is give them priority in the hiring process when things open back up again.

I would like to reiterate that PRIVATIZATION IS BS and if I hear some garbage from NATCA National (who by the way has been super clear with communication regarding training starting, sending Admin leave trainees and high risk back... NOT) or Paul and Trish fawn over being privatized one more time, I'm going to lose it. I will gladly go through government shutdowns, CR negotiations, government red tape bureaucracy etc. if it means we can enjoy the type of job security and pay that we do. I get it NATCA wanted stable funding but seriously you think being privatized was the way to do that? Anyone with 2 brain cells in their head could see a downturn affecting things way more with a private (even a non-profit) company then with a government EMPLOYER THAT CAN LITERALLY PRINT MONEY.

I get that someday we might be privatized and if so they are right to want to have a seat at the table (this landing clearance brought to you by Taco Bell) but there is a difference between pushing for privatization and being prepared for having a voice if it does happen. Nearly every controller I've talked to in numerous facilities thinks privatizing is a bad idea. Wonder why.

Seconded

It's pathetic to think NATCA supports privatization. There are lots of red flags associated with going private but for some reason, those in charge don't seem to feel those flags are of concern.

Regarding the most recent bill written about privatization, remember you were all promised your pay and benefits would remain unchanged - they never said IF you have a job.

The written crap was bad...but the unwritten/unsaid part was scary. Sorry Nav Canada that you have to demonstrate the other side of private ATC.

KingOrGod wrote:

basspaul wrote:

Don't forget that there is a union at Nav Canada and how cuts to the workforce are made is likely part of the collective agreement. Though I can't speak for this case, many union agreements protect seniority during cuts.

At my place of work, from what I have heard as it's not official yet, they are aiming for a 20 - 40% pay cut across all controllers, in lieu of cutting jobs... 40% is going to be a bitter pill to swallow for everybody, and being cut altogether is an even worse pill for those affected to swallow. No points for seniority or loyalty - no scaled reductions.

And they know we have no fall back job options...We've basically been abandoned. There are major international airlines in a land not far away, that received €9 BILLION bailout, and €3B loan (€12B total!) in lieu of paycuts...

Where's the loyalty for all the controllers that have eaten managements sh1t for so long? Staff shortage. No problem. Work us til we bleed and burn out, and then call us immoral when we eventually say enough is enough. Did they raise our pay 20-40% - no. Now the tables turn, and it seems like it's going to be "Oh we're sorry we're firing all trainess and cutting controllers pay. No problem".

Where are our respective governments that are constantly pushing us to cut costs and manage near impossible traffic loads (I'm referring to 2019 and the predictions for 2020 prior corona) - and then prevent us from keeping any money we make despite that. Throw the dog a bone occasionally. This isn't going to end well for a lot of people. There are going to be a lot of controllers suffering either depression or ending up alcoholic.

When a lot of controllers also work a lot of overtime, that's a huge hit if it's the case, also assuming overtime has also been severely cut.

ryan78 wrote:

I've been through the early stages of the Nav-Canada hiring process about 5-6 years ago, only made it to the interview stage but ultimately wasn't selected for training. The whole process can take anywhere from 3-5 years and if at any point you fail those training exercises you are let go and have to wait a year to start the process over again. At least that's how it was 5-6 years ago when I went through it. I feel terrible for people that were just on the cusp of their certification and were let go. That's years of your life and hard work gone with nothing to show for it. I know 2 fairly Jr controllers and I hope they were spared.

The government really needs to do something about the 14 day mandatory quarantine for all travellers returning from outside the country. It is strangling the entire aviation/travel industry across Canada. Other countries are requiring a negative test 48-72 hours before arrival as an entry requirement or actually doing testing on arrival and you get your results within hours to 1-2 days. I don't know why Canada hasn't adopted any of this, seems Trudeau is content to sit back and watch the industry fall to pieces.

I really don’t understand why Trudeau hasn’t given ANY support for the aviation industry. It’s incredibly frustrating and quite frankly, pathetic and embarrassing. He seems to have no issue calling us essential but then sits, and waits on the sidelines for airlines to go bankrupt. It’s quite appalling and no one understands why.

777luver wrote:

ryan78 wrote:

I've been through the early stages of the Nav-Canada hiring process about 5-6 years ago, only made it to the interview stage but ultimately wasn't selected for training. The whole process can take anywhere from 3-5 years and if at any point you fail those training exercises you are let go and have to wait a year to start the process over again. At least that's how it was 5-6 years ago when I went through it. I feel terrible for people that were just on the cusp of their certification and were let go. That's years of your life and hard work gone with nothing to show for it. I know 2 fairly Jr controllers and I hope they were spared.

The government really needs to do something about the 14 day mandatory quarantine for all travellers returning from outside the country. It is strangling the entire aviation/travel industry across Canada. Other countries are requiring a negative test 48-72 hours before arrival as an entry requirement or actually doing testing on arrival and you get your results within hours to 1-2 days. I don't know why Canada hasn't adopted any of this, seems Trudeau is content to sit back and watch the industry fall to pieces.

I really don’t understand why Trudeau hasn’t given ANY support for the aviation industry. It’s incredibly frustrating and quite frankly, pathetic and embarrassing. He seems to have no issue calling us essential but then sits, and waits on the sidelines for airlines to go bankrupt. It’s quite appalling and no one understands why.

It's not just Canada! I was talking to a pilot friend of mine, and apparently the German government forced the ATC guys to not be allowed to collect fees for the last umpteen months. And I believe they're (ATC) not exactly getting much in the way of financial support from their government either (unlike their darling Lufthansa)....?!

JRL3289 wrote:

KingOrGod wrote:

And then when traffic picks up it'll be a ballsup again to scramble to get enough bums in chairs... Farking stupid.

The ANSP should not be in it solely for profit, but we should be allowed to keep some $$ to buffer ourselves and not run on the breadline all the time.

Sigh. Nobody ever learns...

Oh people learn... the older generation will protect itself at the expense of the younger one.

It's a very upside-down model where those closest to retirement are kept on the payroll instead of seeking their early retirements to usher in a new age of younger professionals who can carry us through the foreseeable future.

It's called seniority for a reason. As a controller you learn to protect yourself because nobody will back you up when the sh1t hits the fan. Just ask the guys in Switzerland. So it's totally understandable that some people want to make it to retirement with a fighting chance of being above the poverty line wrt pensions...

777luver wrote:

ryan78 wrote:

I've been through the early stages of the Nav-Canada hiring process about 5-6 years ago, only made it to the interview stage but ultimately wasn't selected for training. The whole process can take anywhere from 3-5 years and if at any point you fail those training exercises you are let go and have to wait a year to start the process over again. At least that's how it was 5-6 years ago when I went through it. I feel terrible for people that were just on the cusp of their certification and were let go. That's years of your life and hard work gone with nothing to show for it. I know 2 fairly Jr controllers and I hope they were spared.

The government really needs to do something about the 14 day mandatory quarantine for all travellers returning from outside the country. It is strangling the entire aviation/travel industry across Canada. Other countries are requiring a negative test 48-72 hours before arrival as an entry requirement or actually doing testing on arrival and you get your results within hours to 1-2 days. I don't know why Canada hasn't adopted any of this, seems Trudeau is content to sit back and watch the industry fall to pieces.

I really don’t understand why Trudeau hasn’t given ANY support for the aviation industry. It’s incredibly frustrating and quite frankly, pathetic and embarrassing. He seems to have no issue calling us essential but then sits, and waits on the sidelines for airlines to go bankrupt. It’s quite appalling and no one understands why.

I agree that the industry has been particularly hard hit, but not sure it is fair to say they've gotten no support. For example, in addition to the wage subsidy program:

https://financialpost.com/transportatio ... government
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/north/fe ... -1.5676323
https://www.canada.ca/en/department-fin ... demic.html

I seem to recall AC/WS were involved in loan guarantee discussions with the government similarly to Porter, but walked away since it was a loan with too many strings and they preferred to rely upon their own liquidity and borrowing abilities.

I haven't publicly seen any specific requests from NAV Canada for specific supports or any political commentary on them.

The vast majority of Canadians don’t want to see private sector companies get government bailouts. That’s why Trudeau isn’t bailing out airlines/airports/NavCan. At least not yet.

Thenoflyzone wrote:

The vast majority of Canadians don’t want to see private sector companies get government bailouts. That’s why Trudeau isn’t bailing out airlines/airports/NavCan. At least not yet.

Does Canada not see NavCan as a defense critical agency? Who separates their fighter jets and what not?

32andBelow wrote:

Thenoflyzone wrote:

The vast majority of Canadians don’t want to see private sector companies get government bailouts. That’s why Trudeau isn’t bailing out airlines/airports/NavCan. At least not yet.

Does Canada not see NavCan as a defense critical agency? Who separates their fighter jets and what not?

The military has their own aerospace control operators that handle ATC for them.

ThePointblank wrote:

32andBelow wrote:

Thenoflyzone wrote:

The vast majority of Canadians don’t want to see private sector companies get government bailouts. That’s why Trudeau isn’t bailing out airlines/airports/NavCan. At least not yet.

Does Canada not see NavCan as a defense critical agency? Who separates their fighter jets and what not?

The military has their own aerospace control operators that handle ATC for them.

In the en route environment?

32andBelow wrote:

ThePointblank wrote:

32andBelow wrote:

Does Canada not see NavCan as a defense critical agency? Who separates their fighter jets and what not?

The military has their own aerospace control operators that handle ATC for them.

In the en route environment?

They can be, alongside the Aerospace Control Officers. They are trained to be ATC as part of their military duties, and follow the same manual of operations. They just have additional training that's related to their military functions and duties.

ThePointblank wrote:

32andBelow wrote:

ThePointblank wrote:

The military has their own aerospace control operators that handle ATC for them.

In the en route environment?

They can be, alongside the Aerospace Control Officers. They are trained to be ATC as part of their military duties, and follow the same manual of operations. They just have additional training that's related to their military functions and duties.

So when a Canadian fighter is coming together with an air Canada a military controller is working the fighter and navcan is working the air Canada?

32andBelow wrote:

ThePointblank wrote:

32andBelow wrote:

In the en route environment?

They can be, alongside the Aerospace Control Officers. They are trained to be ATC as part of their military duties, and follow the same manual of operations. They just have additional training that's related to their military functions and duties.

So when a Canadian fighter is coming together with an air Canada a military controller is working the fighter and navcan is working the air Canada?

You make it sound like we have a military, certainly not a big priority in Canada in comparison to our southern neighbours for sure

That said, Canada is not big on designating things to be of national importance, except milk/eggs/chicken it seems which get huge protections. The government will often fund things, but we don't designate things of importance, hold big reserves (e.g. no government oil stockpiles or strategic metals designated/supported).

The government wouldn't let NAV Canada shut down, but allowing them to cut back significantly seems to be something the government can live with. NAV salaries and benefits have always seemed high so I'm not sure Canadians generally would be too concerned if those took a bit of a hit. Not saying that is right, but how I see it has gone so far. All that said, most Canadians probably wouldn't know that NAV Canada and airport authorities were ever privatized.

I know a few people who work for NAV Canada and the layoffs are going to hit those people especially hard. They have skills that do not transfer into other jobs that pay nearly as much.

32andBelow wrote:

ThePointblank wrote:

32andBelow wrote:

In the en route environment?

They can be, alongside the Aerospace Control Officers. They are trained to be ATC as part of their military duties, and follow the same manual of operations. They just have additional training that's related to their military functions and duties.

So when a Canadian fighter is coming together with an air Canada a military controller is working the fighter and navcan is working the air Canada?

If I were to hazard a guess, no more than 10-20 military aircraft would ever be near commercial traffic at one time. Our military airfleet is not big.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_a ... y_aircraft

So if NAV Canada are a commercial, not for profit organisation that basically charges to cover their costs and meet the needs of their employees and customers, how were they able to buy 51% of Aireon? I know if I were an employee I’d be asking how much those shares are worth and how many jobs could be saved by selling some....