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Speedalive
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Heart Unveils Electric Propulsion System for ES-19 Airliner

Thu Sep 24, 2020 3:48 am

This is the first I've heard of this aircraft. I think it's a neat concept and I really like the resemblance to the classic Dash-7. What are your thoughts on the feasibility of this aircraft and it's potential success in the market? Interesting to note that there's a few companies who've already signed LOI's for the ES-19 (147 total LOI's).

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/air-transport/2020-09-23/heart-unveils-electric-propulsion-system-es-19-airliner?utm_content=140690025&utm_medium=social&utm_source=linkedin&hss_channel=lcp-389487

Heart Aerospace on Wednesday unveiled the electric propulsion system that will power the ES-19 regional airliner it claims will be ready to enter commercial service in the summer of 2026. The Swedish company, which is backed by EQT Ventures, also announced that it has secured €2.5 million ($2.9 million) in financial support from the European Innovation Council Green Deal Accelerator Program.

The 19-seat ES-19 features four propellers powered by electric motors. The preliminary design for the aluminum-fuselage, fixed-wing model shows winglets and a T-shaped tail and somewhat resembles a smaller version of the De Havilland Canada Dash 7.

According to Heart Aerospace, which is headquartered at Gothenburg’s Save Airport, the all-electric aircraft will be able to fly up to around 400 km (217 nm) and operate from runways as short as 750 meters (2,461 feet). It is expected to have a top speed of 215 knots and a cruise speed of 180 knots. The company maintains that these low speeds will not be a disadvantage on short sectors, especially because the aircraft will be able to operate from smaller, less crowded airfields that will shorten door-to-door journey times.

The company was formed in 2018, initially as part of the Electric Air Travel in Sweden (ELISE) project, and funded by the country’s Vinnova innovation agency along with several other undisclosed backers. Its engineering team includes veterans of almost 70 aircraft programs, including the Bombardier CSeries, HondaJet, and Zunum Aero’s electric aircraft.

Testing has already begun with a ground-based prototype of the complete propulsion system, and a 20 percent scale model of the aircraft is due to start flight tests before the end of 2020. The program plan calls for a full-scale prototype, which will be quite close to the series production design, to start flight tests in mid-2024.

The aircraft will be certified under EASA's CS23 standards. The manufacturer is in the early stages of applying for design organization approval.

Heart has developed its propulsion system in-house and is using automotive industry batteries as its power source. MT Propeller is providing the ES-19’s seven-blade propellers. The company is in talks with several aerospace groups with a view to source cockpit systems and flight controls.

The company claims that eight airlines from across Europe, North America, and Asia have signed letters of intent to purchase a total of 147 examples of the ES-19. These include SAS, Braathens and Wideroe in Scandinavia; Air Greenland; New Zealand’s Sounds Air; Pascan in Quebec; Quantum Air in California; and UK startup CityClipper.

Heart has not published a base price for the aircraft but at the stated €1.1 billion ($1.3 billion) combined value of the letters of intent this would suggest a unit price of almost $8.8 million. The company believes the cost could fall further as production costs for the propulsion system are reduced when volumes are scaled up.

As electric propulsion technology improves, Heart has ambitions to extend the range of the ES-19 or subsequent models to around 2,000 km/1,080 nm. According to the company, this range would cover as many as 85 percent of airline departures worldwide and 43 percent of current carbon dioxide emissions from aviation.

The European Innovation Council Green Deal Accelerator Program is backed by the European Commission and the European Development Bank. Under the proposed European Green Deal, the European Commission is seeking to reduce all greenhouse gas emissions by at least 50 percent by 2030.

Initially, Heart is targeting the anticipated early adoption of electric aircraft in Scandinavia. In its native Sweden, the government has committed to making all domestic flights fossil-fuel-free by 2030, while neighboring Norway has a goal of all domestic flights being electric-powered by 2040.

According to Heart Aerospace CEO and founder Anders Forslund, the Covid-19 pandemic has increased pressure on the air transport industry to reshape its approach to environmental and financial sustainability. He pointed to the fact that in Europe some government aid for struggling airlines has come with requirements that it be matched by more ambitious targets for reducing the sector’s carbon emissions.

In the face of declining demand for air travel prompted by Covid and the so-called "flight shaming" trend for consumers to fly less frequently, Forslund commented, “This is a reset moment, as across the board the provision of public finance comes with the caveat that bailouts will only be offered in exchange for cutting emissions, and electric aircraft could be the most cost-effective and sustainable way to travel.”


Image
Last edited by Speedalive on Thu Sep 24, 2020 4:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
ZaphodHarkonnen
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Re: Heart Unveils Electric Propulsion System for ES-19 Airliner

Thu Sep 24, 2020 3:51 am

I wish them luck. I think fully electric airliners will usher in a sea change in how air travel is viewed. Giving us the ability to return to the golden age we had just pre-covid. We might have to see the partial return of multiple hops or even just making do with shorter range for a while. But this is a vital first step.
 
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keesje
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Re: Heart Unveils Electric Propulsion System for ES-19 Airliner

Thu Sep 24, 2020 7:38 am

I think there is a persistant physics problem.

Image

Battery energy density didn't really boom over the last 40 years, despite billions being invested by innovative companies all over the world. No breakthroughs.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
RJMAZ
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Re: Heart Unveils Electric Propulsion System for ES-19 Airliner

Thu Sep 24, 2020 7:51 am

I assume this would use the off the shelf Siemens SP260D electric motors and controllers. The extra 330le has proven it to be excellent.

Considering electric motors do not lose power at high altitude four of them should be perfect for a 19 seater. I could see this design being able to fly 500nm eventually.

Battery technology has been making breakthrough after breakthrough with new chemistries. Capacity has been increasing by 5-10% every year for the last 10 years maybe even 20 years. The batteries tech working in the labs nearly always ends making it into low rate production in high end products and a few years later after mass production begins he costs come down. The latest battery tech working in the labs shows electricity will easily be able to replace the majority of the worlds aircraft. Over 90% of the worlds aircraft never fly over 1000nm. The 737 global average flight length is only around 1000nm.

Also remember when fossil fuels are burn only 20-30% of the energy gets used for thrust or propulsion. With electric motors 95% of the battery energy gets converted into thrust.
Last edited by RJMAZ on Thu Sep 24, 2020 8:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
Jomar777
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Re: Heart Unveils Electric Propulsion System for ES-19 Airliner

Thu Sep 24, 2020 8:04 am

I tend to see these developments, as with the electric cars, with a pitch of salt. Do we really account for the carbon footprint resulting from the process of actually building these batteries/engines/etc.?
I know the Toyota Prius (not an aircraft, I am sorry...) is one of the dirtiest cars to produce because of battery material/exploration plus logistics...
 
planewasted
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Re: Heart Unveils Electric Propulsion System for ES-19 Airliner

Thu Sep 24, 2020 8:21 am

keesje wrote:
I think there is a persistant physics problem.

Image

Battery energy density didn't really boom over the last 40 years, despite billions being invested by innovative companies all over the world. No breakthroughs.


0.5 MJ/kg is doable today. We can build planes that fly 20 hours with jet-A.
Let say we can double the range by flying a lot slower with a high aspect ratio wing. Also the efficiency of the engines should be able to be around twice as high.
Then we get: 0.5/44*20 *2*2 ~= 1. (energy-density-of-batteries/energy-density-of jet-A*20-hour-range*efficiency-gain-from-going slow*engine-efficiency-gains)
So range as an hour of flying on a current long haul plane. I think the physics problem in not there in theory. But there are of course still a lot of practical problems to solve.
 
ABpositive
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Re: Heart Unveils Electric Propulsion System for ES-19 Airliner

Thu Sep 24, 2020 8:28 am

Jomar777 wrote:
I tend to see these developments, as with the electric cars, with a pitch of salt. Do we really account for the carbon footprint resulting from the process of actually building these batteries/engines/etc.?
I know the Toyota Prius (not an aircraft, I am sorry...) is one of the dirtiest cars to produce because of battery material/exploration plus logistics...


Toyota Prius requires about the same amount of material to build as other cars, as for the material for the battery, I'm not sure how it's less energy demanding than mining/drilling then processing and transporting oil (and that's before any emissions from the car itself).
 
Noshow
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Re: Heart Unveils Electric Propulsion System for ES-19 Airliner

Thu Sep 24, 2020 8:38 am

This does look more like made of Lego than being an actual aircraft. Why does it have huge engine pods if it is using electrical engines? The nose looks funny but not efficient. Maybe this is more a technology company they should better call SAAB for the airframe part it seems.
 
RJMAZ
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Re: Heart Unveils Electric Propulsion System for ES-19 Airliner

Thu Sep 24, 2020 9:06 am

Noshow wrote:
This does look more like made of Lego than being an actual aircraft. Why does it have huge engine pods if it is using electrical engines? The nose looks funny but not efficient. Maybe this is more a technology company they should better call SAAB for the airframe part it seems.

The design looks perfect to me. The batteries are inside these "huge" engine pods. The battery and controller can easily be cooled. You have excellent redundancy with a battery for each motor. A battery fire would have no issue with the safety of the aircraft. The best bit is the battery could even be swapped for a fully charged battery.

It takes me about 3 seconds to swap a battery on my drone.
 
Noshow
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Re: Heart Unveils Electric Propulsion System for ES-19 Airliner

Thu Sep 24, 2020 9:21 am

Okay swapable batteries might make sense.
 
Andrw
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Re: Heart Unveils Electric Propulsion System for ES-19 Airliner

Thu Sep 24, 2020 10:29 am

Hello all
Let's focus for a moment on the electrics concept itself and the range of the proposed aircraft.
I just can't see the market for an aircraft that has 19 seat capacity and flies up to 400km. 19 seaters are not the most popular planes, even tiny saab340 could get 30 people or more. I mean, Air Greenland, Wideroe and alike are not going to sustain the project. And the mentioned UK startup CityClipper? Kind of makes me think what crazy idea is that? I presume it's supposed to be some tiny regional area, but I remember flying Flybe dash8-400 on a number of occasions and I don't remember any flight that would carry less than 40 pax. And after all, Flybe was UK regional airline. The range is also insignificant. They shluld aim at 1000km and than I think, could have a shot.
I totaly agree with Jomar777. Eco-people are shouting at how eco the electricity is, but they never take under consideration the production of the batteries. When that is taken under account, the so called eco cars are not more eco than diesel or petrol. I guess it will be same for airplanes.
I think people worry too much about eco and they miss the big picture. I remember reading interview with CEO of Emirates Airlines. He said, that when considering a380 vs a350, the fuel efficiency on a350 is supperior, however, when considered the fuel burnt per pax on a flight from Dubai to USA, a380 is far more ecological than a350.
Now, I know I changed the subject, but I just wanted to show the "broken" in my oppinion thinking that's taken up the whole areas of the industries worlwide. Eco does not mean electrics and in many cases actually excludes it.
Thanks
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Heart Unveils Electric Propulsion System for ES-19 Airliner

Thu Sep 24, 2020 11:21 am

RJMAZ wrote:
...
Also remember when fossil fuels are burn only 20-30% of the energy gets used for thrust or propulsion. With electric motors 95% of the battery energy gets converted into thrust.


Agreed, but battery weight remains the same throughout the flight while fossil fuel burns out. Are there any numbers considering this parameter?
All posts are just opinions.
 
VSMUT
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Re: Heart Unveils Electric Propulsion System for ES-19 Airliner

Thu Sep 24, 2020 11:26 am

Andrw wrote:
I just can't see the market for an aircraft that has 19 seat capacity and flies up to 400km. 19 seaters are not the most popular planes, even tiny saab340 could get 30 people or more. I mean, Air Greenland, Wideroe and alike are not going to sustain the project. And the mentioned UK startup CityClipper? Kind of makes me think what crazy idea is that? I presume it's supposed to be some tiny regional area, but I remember flying Flybe dash8-400 on a number of occasions and I don't remember any flight that would carry less than 40 pax. And after all, Flybe was UK regional airline. The range is also insignificant. They shluld aim at 1000km and than I think, could have a shot.


The economics will presumably be somewhat different. It isn't unthinkable that it will be so much cheaper that a mere 19 seats makes it viable. 400 km actually covers quite a market in Scandinavia. From Copenhagen it will be able to serve the entire domestic network and southern Sweden. From Stockholm it can reach many secondary Finnish destinations. It can cover most of southern Norway from Oslo and will be able to hop up along the coast without any issues.
Let's not forget that aircraft programs tend to evolve. What starts out as a 400 km, 19 seater today could eventually be stretched into a 30 seater that does 800 km.


Andrw wrote:
I totaly agree with Jomar777. Eco-people are shouting at how eco the electricity is, but they never take under consideration the production of the batteries. When that is taken under account, the so called eco cars are not more eco than diesel or petrol. I guess it will be same for airplanes.


We have to start somewhere. The technology doesn't evolve and improve if there isn't any investment into it. Jet engines only became as efficient as they are because airlines kept buying thousands of them.

But let's not forget that there are 2 kinds of environmental problems that we are dealing with. There is the carbon emissions issue, which is the big one that is affecting the climate and is major source for concern. Then there is environmental pollution, which is the big issue with battery production. Environmental pollution kills local wildlife and can cause cancer etc, but does not cause global warming. The latter we can deal with over time. The former we can't.


Jomar777 wrote:
I tend to see these developments, as with the electric cars, with a pitch of salt. Do we really account for the carbon footprint resulting from the process of actually building these batteries/engines/etc.?
I know the Toyota Prius (not an aircraft, I am sorry...) is one of the dirtiest cars to produce because of battery material/exploration plus logistics...


Let's be real though, the petrochemical industry isn't much better in that regard. Ditto for modern jet engines that contain more and more exotic materials.


RJMAZ wrote:
Noshow wrote:
This does look more like made of Lego than being an actual aircraft. Why does it have huge engine pods if it is using electrical engines? The nose looks funny but not efficient. Maybe this is more a technology company they should better call SAAB for the airframe part it seems.

The design looks perfect to me. The batteries are inside these "huge" engine pods. The battery and controller can easily be cooled. You have excellent redundancy with a battery for each motor. A battery fire would have no issue with the safety of the aircraft. The best bit is the battery could even be swapped for a fully charged battery.

It takes me about 3 seconds to swap a battery on my drone.


Not just that, the modular design also allows them to easily swap to new engine and battery types as the technology evolves. That would be difficult if they were embedded into the wings or fuselage.
 
mxaxai
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Re: Heart Unveils Electric Propulsion System for ES-19 Airliner

Thu Sep 24, 2020 11:30 am

Andrw wrote:
I just can't see the market for an aircraft that has 19 seat capacity and flies up to 400km. 19 seaters are not the most popular planes, even tiny saab340 could get 30 people or more.

Well, the market is large enough to make Textron / Cessna develop a new unpressurized 19 seat prop. viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1437387&p=22366473#p22366473

Now granted, the Cessna SkyCourier was launched primarily as a pallet freighter for FedEx. This new electric aircraft doesn't appear to have a fixed launch customer yet but interest for 147 frames is actually pretty good. The SkyCourier aside, there hasn't been a new 19-seater for many years. The closest would be the Do-228NG in 2010 (though the Do-228 is from 1981), the DHC-6-400 from 2006 (though the DHC-6 is from 1965) and the Let L-410NG from 2017 (though the L-410 is from 1969).

Range isn't that important for such small aircraft, although I agree that 400 km is a bit on the short side. If you look at typical uses for DHC-6 or BN-2 Islanders, they mostly get used for island hopping, bush flying or charters. A number of DHC-6 in particular have been lost in Indonesia, while the L-410 only makes news when another one goes missing in central Africa. Outside of such events, these small aicraft tend to fly under the radar.
 
Someone83
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Re: Heart Unveils Electric Propulsion System for ES-19 Airliner

Thu Sep 24, 2020 11:42 am

VSMUT wrote:
[
The economics will presumably be somewhat different. It isn't unthinkable that it will be so much cheaper that a mere 19 seats makes it viable. 400 km actually covers quite a market in Scandinavia. From Copenhagen it will be able to serve the entire domestic network and southern Sweden. From Stockholm it can reach many secondary Finnish destinations. It can cover most of southern Norway from Oslo and will be able to hop up along the coast without any issues.
Let's not forget that aircraft programs tend to evolve. What starts out as a 400 km, 19 seater today could eventually be stretched into a 30 seater that does 800 km.


And while 19 seats is way too little for the main trunk routes, there are several short [feeder] routes to tertiary airports where this is enough
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Heart Unveils Electric Propulsion System for ES-19 Airliner

Thu Sep 24, 2020 11:59 am

I think two pilot requirements is the deal breaker for 19 seat aircraft.
All posts are just opinions.
 
PlymSpotter
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Re: Heart Unveils Electric Propulsion System for ES-19 Airliner

Thu Sep 24, 2020 12:01 pm

I can see this being a very successful aircraft. Many of the airlines who have signed LOIs have access abundant renewable energy - this could be true carbon neutral flying.

Jomar777 wrote:
I tend to see these developments, as with the electric cars, with a pitch of salt. Do we really account for the carbon footprint resulting from the process of actually building these batteries/engines/etc.?
I know the Toyota Prius (not an aircraft, I am sorry...) is one of the dirtiest cars to produce because of battery material/exploration plus logistics...


I see where you are coming from, but it's out of date information - battery production has more than halved its environmental footprint in the last few years. The 'more harmful' argument also ignores that batteries can now be recycled, reclaiming the rare materials. Of course there is still a long way to go, but more and more this comes down to the social and ethical side of mining in third world countries than emissions.
...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
 
Andrw
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Re: Heart Unveils Electric Propulsion System for ES-19 Airliner

Thu Sep 24, 2020 12:12 pm

VSMUT wrote:
The economics will presumably be somewhat different. It isn't unthinkable that it will be so much cheaper that a mere 19 seats makes it viable. 400 km actually covers quite a market in Scandinavia. From Copenhagen it will be able to serve the entire domestic network and southern Sweden. From Stockholm it can reach many secondary Finnish destinations. It can cover most of southern Norway from Oslo and will be able to hop up along the coast without any issues.
Let's not forget that aircraft programs tend to evolve. What starts out as a 400 km, 19 seater today could eventually be stretched into a 30 seater that does 800 km.


Yes, but that's exactly my point. The routes in Scandinavia, a.k.a. most served by Wideroe, are sustainable only because of Public Service Obligation contracts, not because these routes are in great demand. Same in Greenland (well, they do transport a lot of cargo I guess). And I'm not saying that the development should not be invested in. All I wanted to say, is that if we want to really introduce, rather than force-in these planes (as it seems to happen in European Union nowadays at the costs of employees and passangers as well) than let's not introduce early models but rather work on them and when they are trully fulfilling market's expectations, than introduce them. Nice and easy.
Regarding market in Africa or South America. Yes, 19 seaters fly there but lst's be honest. They are there because:
- not many airlines will manage to fill up 30-40 seats for affordable price for local consumer
- local consumer may not be best consumer to be introduced on board (Saudia flight 163 in 1980 performing Hajj flight where pax after boarding were preparing capfires in the alley to cook their meals).
- servicing quality and conditions in most african countries do not allow to operate modern jetliners
Thanks
 
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: Heart Unveils Electric Propulsion System for ES-19 Airliner

Thu Sep 24, 2020 12:24 pm

RJMAZ wrote:
Noshow wrote:
Why does it have huge engine pods if it is using electrical engines?

The design looks perfect to me. The batteries are inside these "huge" engine pods. The battery and controller can easily be cooled. You have excellent redundancy with a battery for each motor. A battery fire would have no issue with the safety of the aircraft. The best bit is the battery could even be swapped for a fully charged battery.

At first glance I had the same question, and seconds later came up with the same answer (without having looked at the article).

Placing all this weight on the wing is undoubtedly "a good thing" from a structural perspective too.

But I have one question; why not pusher propellers?

The P.180 Avanti is an exceptionally efficient design, in part due to pusher propellers.
Piaggio says low-drag laminar flow is maintained to around 50% of the wing chord, compared with around 20–25% for conventional tractor turboprops where propeller wash disturbs the airflow over the wing.


Historically, the two disadvantages to pusher engines are
1) Engine cooling problems
This is usually mitigated by design

2) Noise
{P.180 Avanti} The exterior noise level and its higher pitched sound has been shown to be the result primarily of the interaction of the turbine engine exhaust flows and the five-bladed pusher propellers
With no turbine engine exhaust, will these be a problem for electric engines?

I suppose the proposed design is probably radical enough by virtue of employing electric engines, so maybe going to a pusher propeller is a step too far at this stage.
Indeed, compared to these contenders, the ES-19 looks absolutely normal. :lol:
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: Heart Unveils Electric Propulsion System for ES-19 Airliner

Thu Sep 24, 2020 12:30 pm

Andrw wrote:
Regarding market in Africa or South America. Yes, 19 seaters fly there but lst's be honest. They are there because:
- not many airlines will manage to fill up 30-40 seats for affordable price for local consumer
- local consumer may not be best consumer to be introduced on board (Saudia flight 163 in 1980 performing Hajj flight where pax after boarding were preparing capfires in the alley to cook their meals).
- servicing quality and conditions in most african countries do not allow to operate modern jetliners
Thanks

OMG! :banghead:
I'm heading off right now before I say anything else, but you might want to reflect on what you have just written.
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
VSMUT
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Re: Heart Unveils Electric Propulsion System for ES-19 Airliner

Thu Sep 24, 2020 1:02 pm

Ooohhh boy...

Andrw wrote:
Yes, but that's exactly my point. The routes in Scandinavia, a.k.a. most served by Wideroe, are sustainable only because of Public Service Obligation contracts, not because these routes are in great demand. Same in Greenland (well, they do transport a lot of cargo I guess). And I'm not saying that the development should not be invested in. All I wanted to say, is that if we want to really introduce, rather than force-in these planes (as it seems to happen in European Union nowadays at the costs of employees and passangers as well) than let's not introduce early models but rather work on them and when they are trully fulfilling market's expectations, than introduce them. Nice and easy.


No aircraft is going to enter commercial service without being certified. Electric aircraft have been flying for years now with the first electrical GA types already having received type certification. The technology predates the internal combustion engine.


Andrw wrote:
rather than force-in these planes (as it seems to happen in European Union nowadays at the costs of employees and passangers as well)


Name one example of new technology being forced in to the detriment of employees and passengers in the EU.


Andrw wrote:
Regarding market in Africa or South America. Yes, 19 seaters fly there but lst's be honest. They are there because:


Ugh, you are so far off the mark with this post, but I will give it a try:


Andrw wrote:
- not many airlines will manage to fill up 30-40 seats for affordable price for local consumer


BS. Airlines in Africa already operate fleets of bigger and smaller aircraft.


Andrw wrote:
- local consumer may not be best consumer to be introduced on board (Saudia flight 163 in 1980 performing Hajj flight where pax after boarding were preparing capfires in the alley to cook their meals).


One incident 40 years ago sets your standard for all of Africa today? This is what flying in Africa is like in 2020:
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=1449525
https://airtravelanalysis.com/south-afr ... ess-class/

I've flown a lot in Africa. Your description fits a European low cost flight from the UK to Ibiza better than the typical airline flight in Africa.

Andrw wrote:
- servicing quality and conditions in most african countries do not allow to operate modern jetliners


There is just so much wrong with this.

1. Electric engines are extremely simple. In any case, way more simple than the ubiquitous PWC PT-6, that hundreds if not thousands of aircraft across Africa have been running on for decades.
2. Africa is home to lots and lots of modern airliners. From brand new types such as the 787s, A220s and A350s at Ethiopian, Kenya Airways, Air Tanzania and South African to probably thousands of King Airs, Caravans, ATRs, Dash 8s, Let 410s and Embraers. Africa is challenging, but the expertise is definitely there.
 
f4f3a
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Re: Heart Unveils Electric Propulsion System for ES-19 Airliner

Thu Sep 24, 2020 1:49 pm

I'm not sure electric planes will catch on other than light a/c. However I do think this concept looks great . Love a 4 engine look on a prop liner as previous said looks like a dash 7 which is no bad thing
 
zuckie13
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Re: Heart Unveils Electric Propulsion System for ES-19 Airliner

Thu Sep 24, 2020 2:05 pm

keesje wrote:
I think there is a persistant physics problem.

Image

Battery energy density didn't really boom over the last 40 years, despite billions being invested by innovative companies all over the world. No breakthroughs.


Is anyone working on building a plane that flies on either honey or goose fat? Now that would be unique.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Heart Unveils Electric Propulsion System for ES-19 Airliner

Thu Sep 24, 2020 2:42 pm

Much of flyover country in the US is isolated, connects with the closest big city via difficult and dangerous roads often affected by weather. While 200 mile range is not quite enough 300 miles would connect almost all of them. A 'lego' plane such as this likely could have a 50+ year life span. Electric motors already are near eternal. Batteries just keep getting better and cheaper, replacement over time will be an almost trivial expense. Protocols for 1 pilot safe flying need to be promulgated.
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keesje
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Re: Heart Unveils Electric Propulsion System for ES-19 Airliner

Thu Sep 24, 2020 3:01 pm

Battery energy density keeps getting better, a little every year. But not like processor speed or your smart phone. A little, despite billions being pumped in it.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
iceberg210
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Re: Heart Unveils Electric Propulsion System for ES-19 Airliner

Thu Sep 24, 2020 3:12 pm

I'm incredibly excited about the possibility that electric flying could bring back some of the regional routes as well. Even as driving has become easier, in the intermountain west for example there's a lot of places where even at a relatively slow air speed because you aren't having to go way out of your way in the route (the difference in road and air miles out here in the mountains can be immense) a short range airplane can still link a ton of places, like Northern and Southern Idaho, Montana and Idaho etc etc.
Erik Berg
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2175301
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Re: Heart Unveils Electric Propulsion System for ES-19 Airliner

Thu Sep 24, 2020 3:32 pm

The fly in the ointment is that most of the electricity is generated by fossil fuels in most countries....

Wind farms and solar farms are a very small % of electrical generation - and are never likely to dominate due to the land area they need (they are low energy density per area by nature).

The best source of reliable energy generation is nuclear; which outside of France has not really caught on in most of the world (even in the USA is about 20% based on primarily older generation plants that are almost all likely to be retired in the next 20-30 years).

There is nothing carbon neutral about electric aircraft when the base energy source is considered except for a few isolated areas.

Have a great day,
 
2175301
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Re: Heart Unveils Electric Propulsion System for ES-19 Airliner

Thu Sep 24, 2020 3:44 pm

I will concede that perhaps in the small commuter aircraft market the cheaper motors vs turbines might make a small aircraft like this commercially viable for certain markets.

Just don't try to claim that its very "green"

Have a great day,
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Heart Unveils Electric Propulsion System for ES-19 Airliner

Thu Sep 24, 2020 3:46 pm

I took another look at one of our US States Wyoming. It is sparsely populated and huge. But a 300 mile range plane could connect almost every point to its two major cities or also Denver, Salt Lake City, and Rapid City. Modern hourly weather forecasting is becoming very accurate. Wyoming also has tremendous wind power potential. Rural people will not mind flight schedules adjusting to weather windows.
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Nomadd
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Re: Heart Unveils Electric Propulsion System for ES-19 Airliner

Thu Sep 24, 2020 4:09 pm

keesje wrote:
I think there is a persistant physics problem.

Image

Battery energy density didn't really boom over the last 40 years, despite billions being invested by innovative companies all over the world. No breakthroughs.

Now try that without using 20 year old numbers. Rechargeable lithium is already more than three times that good at the pack level and 1 Mj/kg at the cell level. You might not want to get figures from a company arguing against something.
Last edited by Nomadd on Thu Sep 24, 2020 4:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Andrw
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Re: Heart Unveils Electric Propulsion System for ES-19 Airliner

Thu Sep 24, 2020 4:28 pm

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
Andrw wrote:
Regarding market in Africa or South America. Yes, 19 seaters fly there but lst's be honest. They are there because:
- not many airlines will manage to fill up 30-40 seats for affordable price for local consumer
- local consumer may not be best consumer to be introduced on board (Saudia flight 163 in 1980 performing Hajj flight where pax after boarding were preparing capfires in the alley to cook their meals).
- servicing quality and conditions in most african countries do not allow to operate modern jetliners
Thanks

OMG! :banghead:
I'm heading off right now before I say anything else, but you might want to reflect on what you have just written.


Reflect on what exactly?

As someone wrote earlier, no, one accident does not set the standard, but it gives an exaple in discussion.
 
Andrw
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Re: Heart Unveils Electric Propulsion System for ES-19 Airliner

Thu Sep 24, 2020 4:43 pm

VSMUT wrote:

No aircraft is going to enter commercial service without being certified. Electric aircraft have been flying for years now with the first electrical GA types already having received type certification. The technology predates the internal combustion engine.


That is not what I wrote. Read and understand what You are reading. I wrote that it's better to introduce a plane that's fulfilling market demands. 400km in range is not going to gain these guys much of a market.

VSMUT wrote:

Name one example of new technology being forced in to the detriment of employees and passengers in the EU.


Well, coal over atom - Germany, Poland.
Draconian CO2 emission cutdowns promisses in return for help during pandemia - France, Germany.

VSMUT wrote:

BS. Airlines in Africa already operate fleets of bigger and smaller aircraft.


Are You doing this on purpose? You're thinking South Africa, Egypt, Etiopia. I'm thinking majority or crafts in central and west Africa. Soviet an12, an24, an26 etc. If we look at the reports from crashes from Africa most will either state technical problem or that and pilot error. Anda lot will point out at lack of proper servicing.

VSMUT wrote:

1. Electric engines are extremely simple. In any case, way more simple than the ubiquitous PWC PT-6, that hundreds if not thousands of aircraft across Africa have been running on for decades.
2. Africa is home to lots and lots of modern airliners. From brand new types such as the 787s, A220s and A350s at Ethiopian, Kenya Airways, Air Tanzania and South African to probably thousands of King Airs, Caravans, ATRs, Dash 8s, Let 410s and Embraers. Africa is challenging, but the expertise is definitely there.


Engines may be simple, but You need that simplicity to deliver what airlines may need and I just don't think 400km is exactly what they need. That's why I wrote earlier: better to develop product more before introducing it to the market early.
 
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JetBuddy
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Re: Heart Unveils Electric Propulsion System for ES-19 Airliner

Thu Sep 24, 2020 5:03 pm

What does a 217 nm range help if you have to recharge the batteries before taking off again?

This will only work if the battery packs are swappable during turnaround.
 
mxaxai
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Re: Heart Unveils Electric Propulsion System for ES-19 Airliner

Thu Sep 24, 2020 5:12 pm

JetBuddy wrote:
What does a 217 nm range help if you have to recharge the batteries before taking off again?

This will only work if the battery packs are swappable during turnaround.

Fast charging is getting to the point that automobiles can go 20-80% in under 20 minutes. The limit is usually not the battery but the external power supply and internal power distribution. I think a recharge time of under 60 minutes, preferably under 45 minutes, is perfectly fine for everyday flight operations.
 
IFlyVeryLittle
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Re: Heart Unveils Electric Propulsion System for ES-19 Airliner

Thu Sep 24, 2020 5:23 pm

217 miles is barely coast to coast -- in Florida. I get that developments happen and the range will certainly improve, but seriously? I'm going to fly from Tampa to Daytona Beach (OK, Florida people, bad example given the state of I-4)? But this just doesn't seem like a solution to a problem anyone has right now.
 
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JetBuddy
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Re: Heart Unveils Electric Propulsion System for ES-19 Airliner

Thu Sep 24, 2020 5:42 pm

mxaxai wrote:
JetBuddy wrote:
What does a 217 nm range help if you have to recharge the batteries before taking off again?

This will only work if the battery packs are swappable during turnaround.

Fast charging is getting to the point that automobiles can go 20-80% in under 20 minutes. The limit is usually not the battery but the external power supply and internal power distribution. I think a recharge time of under 60 minutes, preferably under 45 minutes, is perfectly fine for everyday flight operations.


The longer charge time, the less value the aircraft can deliver.

Operators like Widerøe needs much quicker turnaround than that. You can't fly 200 NM and then wait 60 minutes before the next leg. And it will take much longer than 60 minutes to charge, even with the latest tech.

The batteries need to be swappable.
 
VSMUT
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Re: Heart Unveils Electric Propulsion System for ES-19 Airliner

Thu Sep 24, 2020 5:45 pm

Andrw wrote:
Engines may be simple, but You need that simplicity to deliver what airlines may need and I just don't think 400km is exactly what they need. That's why I wrote earlier: better to develop product more before introducing it to the market early.


Several have already pointed out that 400 km is enough to get it started out on domestic routes in Scandinavia and most of Europe. The similar sized and performing Twin Otter has over 500 in service, with Viking Air delivering some hundred since restarting production, on top of several competing re-build programs. The Let-410 has also resumed production. The market for this type of aircraft exists.
The engine/battery nacelles are clearly modular and designed to be upgraded over time as technology evolves. Fuselages are easily stretched. It is no different from how the A330 was designed for domestic flights in France, and eventually became capable of 12 hours flights between Europe and Asia.


Andrw wrote:
Are You doing this on purpose? You're thinking South Africa, Egypt, Etiopia. I'm thinking majority or crafts in central and west Africa. Soviet an12, an24, an26 etc. If we look at the reports from crashes from Africa most will either state technical problem or that and pilot error. Anda lot will point out at lack of proper servicing.


Yes, I am doing it on purpose, because you clearly don't know what you are on about. I'm not even limiting myself to those three. My personal experience stems from East Africa as well as up and down the coast in western Africa. What you don't read about in all those crash reports are the fleets of every other type that reliably and safely ply the skies. Tanzania alone has 15 airlines that fly a combined fleet of 100 aircraft in this size category. Not decrepit old Antonovs, but Cessna Grand Caravans, King Air 350s, Pilatus PC-12s, Dash 8-100/200s and ATR 42s. Kenya has even more.

Another member also pointed out how wrong you are. Perhaps it is time to reconsider your world view?


Andrw wrote:
Well, coal over atom - Germany, Poland.
Draconian CO2 emission cutdowns promisses in return for help during pandemia - France, Germany.


Ah yes, because preventing another Fukushima, Three Mile Island, Chernobyl, Kyshtym, SL1 or Windscale disaster is completely trivial, and nuclear disasters definitely aren't to the detriment of employees and consumers... :roll:
 
PlymSpotter
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Re: Heart Unveils Electric Propulsion System for ES-19 Airliner

Thu Sep 24, 2020 6:23 pm

IFlyVeryLittle wrote:
217 miles is barely coast to coast -- in Florida. I get that developments happen and the range will certainly improve, but seriously? I'm going to fly from Tampa to Daytona Beach (OK, Florida people, bad example given the state of I-4)? But this just doesn't seem like a solution to a problem anyone has right now.


Errr, it's actually almost double. Florida's coast to coast width is approximately 120nm, the range here is 217nm.

Whilst I agree more range would be even better, it's still a good starting point. To use a local example, this range is already enough to reach all of the Bahamas from Nassau, or most of the Bahamas from FLL or MIA - two good sized regional markets with multiple 19-30 seat aircraft already being used.
...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
 
mxaxai
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Re: Heart Unveils Electric Propulsion System for ES-19 Airliner

Thu Sep 24, 2020 6:31 pm

JetBuddy wrote:
And it will take much longer than 60 minutes to charge, even with the latest tech.

The batteries need to be swappable.

Why do you expect such long charging times? Battery-electric trains are pushing <10 minutes charging time for 100 km / 60 mi ranges, it's just a question of how much electric power the charging station supplies and how you distribute all that power to the individual cells.

Though, refueling for large jets is euqal to several hundred MW of electric power. You would have to recharge an A320 with 340 kV / 2500 A to transfer the same amount of energy as completely filling the tanks with kerosene does in 15 minutes. That's comparable to a single high voltage power line.

For a small regional aircraft, say an equivalent kerosene volume of 600 l, you could recharge it in 15 minutes at 25 kV / 900 A. That's similar to typical railway catenaries.
 
CanadianNorth
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Re: Heart Unveils Electric Propulsion System for ES-19 Airliner

Thu Sep 24, 2020 6:43 pm

Having read through quickly one big thing I didn't see was is that 400 km range the total drop dead range, or the actually useable range with a worthwhile payload, alternates, and reserves accounted for?

Around here the vast majority of our regional air routes are indeed well under 500km, however there are two catches:
1 - Fuel - or in this case battery re-charging - at many stops either isn't available at all or is available but only for a crazy expensive price, so aircraft often will quite often be carrying enough fuel to make it round trip for an out and back or two or three stops down the line on a milk run trip before needing to refuel.
2 - Alternates and reserves. Your destination may only be 400 km away, however in a real world situation you may actually need 800 km of useable range to safely fly there. Flights are typically planned for taxi around, take off, fly to your destination, shoot an approach, find out that for whatever reason you can't land there right now, climb back up, proceed to your alternate destination however far away that is, shoot an approach there, and land with enough fuel or battery power remaining to meet the legally required emergency reserves.

I'm not necessarily against the idea of electric airplanes. I'm skeptical of many factors, but today with humans vs environment we really should be working on some alternative ideas, so I won't say no just yet. I'm just curious if anyone knows whether or not the advertised range of 400km includes the above? And if not how much range would this aircraft actually be good for in real world flight planning?
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YYZYYT
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Re: Heart Unveils Electric Propulsion System for ES-19 Airliner

Thu Sep 24, 2020 7:01 pm

PlymSpotter wrote:
IFlyVeryLittle wrote:
217 miles is barely coast to coast -- in Florida. I get that developments happen and the range will certainly improve, but seriously? I'm going to fly from Tampa to Daytona Beach (OK, Florida people, bad example given the state of I-4)? But this just doesn't seem like a solution to a problem anyone has right now.


Errr, it's actually almost double. Florida's coast to coast width is approximately 120nm, the range here is 217nm.

Whilst I agree more range would be even better, it's still a good starting point. To use a local example, this range is already enough to reach all of the Bahamas from Nassau, or most of the Bahamas from FLL or MIA - two good sized regional markets with multiple 19-30 seat aircraft already being used.


On the question of range, I see another big advantage with this type of engine: the limit on range is battery life... so as batteries improve, it should be possible to swap better batteries as they become available, and increase range. No change whatsoever to the aircraft apart from the batteries.
Last edited by YYZYYT on Thu Sep 24, 2020 7:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Heart Unveils Electric Propulsion System for ES-19 Airliner

Thu Sep 24, 2020 7:04 pm

Jomar777 wrote:
I tend to see these developments, as with the electric cars, with a pitch of salt. Do we really account for the carbon footprint resulting from the process of actually building these batteries/engines/etc.?
I know the Toyota Prius (not an aircraft, I am sorry...) is one of the dirtiest cars to produce because of battery material/exploration plus logistics...

Of course not; that's where the overall lies are.

Electric motion is ONE OF THE solution for cleaner air; not THE solution.
Electric vehicles make a lot of sense for small commuting and inner-city transportation; long haul, even more with heavy towing, is not realistic right now with electric vehicles (I know, Teslas are driven over long drives; but how does it really compare in the long run?).
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Heart Unveils Electric Propulsion System for ES-19 Airliner

Thu Sep 24, 2020 7:08 pm

mxaxai wrote:
JetBuddy wrote:
And it will take much longer than 60 minutes to charge, even with the latest tech.

The batteries need to be swappable.

Why do you expect such long charging times? Battery-electric trains are pushing <10 minutes charging time for 100 km / 60 mi ranges, it's just a question of how much electric power the charging station supplies and how you distribute all that power to the individual cells.

Though, refueling for large jets is euqal to several hundred MW of electric power. You would have to recharge an A320 with 340 kV / 2500 A to transfer the same amount of energy as completely filling the tanks with kerosene does in 15 minutes. That's comparable to a single high voltage power line.

For a small regional aircraft, say an equivalent kerosene volume of 600 l, you could recharge it in 15 minutes at 25 kV / 900 A. That's similar to typical railway catenaries.

Pumping 850 MWh (340 kV @ 2,500 A for 15 minutes) in such a short period of time is currently to the detriment of battery life. Sure you can do it; but for how many times? If it means the batteries are junk after 50 charges, it's useless.
 
peterinlisbon
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Re: Heart Unveils Electric Propulsion System for ES-19 Airliner

Thu Sep 24, 2020 7:43 pm

I'm looking forward to seeing London-Sydney become the Kangaroo route again with stops in Amsterdam, Cologne, Munich, Vienna...
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Heart Unveils Electric Propulsion System for ES-19 Airliner

Thu Sep 24, 2020 9:25 pm

Is there any possibility of a powered runway centerline, like third rail of subway? Should be of some help during takeoff.
All posts are just opinions.
 
JettNC
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Re: Heart Unveils Electric Propulsion System for ES-19 Airliner

Thu Sep 24, 2020 10:14 pm

Since the original AIN article mentions this airliner will use "automotive industry batteries", it likely refers to either lithium ion or nickel hydride batteries. There are major impact effects on the capacity, charging, life and output of batteries caused by temperatures outside of optimal. The optimal temperature range for lithium batteries is 15 °C to 35 °C (59F to 95F). This might be an additional limiting factor on where the ES-19 can be flown
 
2175301
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Re: Heart Unveils Electric Propulsion System for ES-19 Airliner

Thu Sep 24, 2020 10:58 pm

mxaxai wrote:
For a small regional aircraft, say an equivalent kerosene volume of 600 l, you could recharge it in 15 minutes at 25 kV / 900 A. That's similar to typical railway catenaries.


Such a fantasy... I'd like to see your 345 Kv battery pack setup, and how the aircraft would be wired to supply that. Also, I'd love to see how you are going to get permitted to build and operate a 345Kv system at an airport. Note: I spent most of my life working in the Power Utilities... 345 Kv is not going to happen for an aircraft.

I don't know what voltages they are actually using. But, I'd guess no more than several thousand, and less than 1000v is likely. There are a lot of things related to insulation and switching and controls that drive to voltages in this range (otherwise the switching gear gets physically large - not something you want on an aircraft).

Even the largest commercial land plant motors I'm aware of only use 13.8 Kv in the USA (which is also the voltage of large 1000+ MW electrical generators). It's considered cost impractical to go higher than 13.8 Kv for generator and motor winding's. Most large industrial motors I'm aware built in the 1980's to 2000's actually run at 6.9 KV; and there are vastly more 3.2 -4.6 Kv large commercial motors out there.

So lets see the numbers for how long it would take to refuel a couple hundred MW's of power at say 1000V or 2000V. That's a lot more realistic.

Have a great day,
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Heart Unveils Electric Propulsion System for ES-19 Airliner

Thu Sep 24, 2020 10:58 pm

JettNC wrote:
Since the original AIN article mentions this airliner will use "automotive industry batteries", it likely refers to either lithium ion or nickel hydride batteries. There are major impact effects on the capacity, charging, life and output of batteries caused by temperatures outside of optimal. The optimal temperature range for lithium batteries is 15 °C to 35 °C (59F to 95F). This might be an additional limiting factor on where the ES-19 can be flown

Is that internal Battery Temp or external?
If the Batteries are under current draw, don't they heat up internally? That could help maintain the optimal internal Battery Temp.
 
JettNC
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Re: Heart Unveils Electric Propulsion System for ES-19 Airliner

Thu Sep 24, 2020 11:58 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
JettNC wrote:
Since the original AIN article mentions this airliner will use "automotive industry batteries", it likely refers to either lithium ion or nickel hydride batteries. There are major impact effects on the capacity, charging, life and output of batteries caused by temperatures outside of optimal. The optimal temperature range for lithium batteries is 15 °C to 35 °C (59F to 95F). This might be an additional limiting factor on where the ES-19 can be flown

Is that internal Battery Temp or external?
If the Batteries are under current draw, don't they heat up internally? That could help maintain the optimal internal Battery Temp.


The 'External' temperature plays a critical role in low temperature effects and the high temperature effects are attributed to the high 'Internal' temperature of batteries during operation. A battery having a high current discharge and will heat up. Too much heat if not handled by the Battery Management System can cause Thermal Runaway.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Heart Unveils Electric Propulsion System for ES-19 Airliner

Fri Sep 25, 2020 12:15 am

JettNC wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
JettNC wrote:
Since the original AIN article mentions this airliner will use "automotive industry batteries", it likely refers to either lithium ion or nickel hydride batteries. There are major impact effects on the capacity, charging, life and output of batteries caused by temperatures outside of optimal. The optimal temperature range for lithium batteries is 15 °C to 35 °C (59F to 95F). This might be an additional limiting factor on where the ES-19 can be flown

Is that internal Battery Temp or external?
If the Batteries are under current draw, don't they heat up internally? That could help maintain the optimal internal Battery Temp.


The 'External' temperature plays a critical role in low temperature effects and the high temperature effects are attributed to the high 'Internal' temperature of batteries during operation. A battery having a high current discharge and will heat up. Too much heat if not handled by the Battery Management System can cause Thermal Runaway.

OK, but that still doesn't answer the question: is the 15-35°C ideal temp range internal or external? Or both?
Batteries could be designed to "naturally" maintain its temperature in the ideal range during operation (via the normal heating caused by current draw) despite the external temp being way lower (such as cruise altitude).

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