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WayexTDI
Posts: 2407
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: Heart Unveils Electric Propulsion System for ES-19 Airliner

Fri Sep 25, 2020 2:13 am

frmrCapCadet wrote:
Insulation to preserve heat, and airflow to cool does not seem like all that difficult a task.

Or a closed loop system with a calorie-carrying media; basically, like a liquid-cooling system in your car.
 
planewasted
Posts: 546
Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2008 11:47 pm

Re: Heart Unveils Electric Propulsion System for ES-19 Airliner

Fri Sep 25, 2020 7:21 am

prebennorholm wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
OK, but that still doesn't answer the question: is the 15-35°C ideal temp range internal or external? Or both?
Batteries could be designed to "naturally" maintain its temperature in the ideal range during operation (via the normal heating caused by current draw) despite the external temp being way lower (such as cruise altitude).

On such a high power application a total temperature management system is needed.

An electric car can go less than top speed 100 mph right from your doorstep on a cold winter morning without spoiling your day. Similar to gas/diesel cars - you shouldn't floor the accelerator until the engine reaches ops. temp. Not so with an airliner. Half a take-off does't count as a valid option. If too cold, battery must be heated before take-off.

High dischange rate as well as high charge rate heats the battery severely, therefore cooling system is absolutely necessary.

A very powerful battery temp management system is needed. Heating is the easy stuff. It is only needed on the ground and can be done with external power.

Cooling - air cooling with air stream through the packs to cool the cells - that seems pretty easy and simple. Until you hit a cloud and fill the packs with moisture. Not to mention the challenges when that moisture gets white and solid.

Electric airliner flight is a lot more complicated than 90% of the posters on this thread imagine.


Jet engine cooling is extremely complicated today. And it needs to be perfect not just because of durability, as it also affects efficiency. I think the battery cooling will also be complicated, but much less.
 
Jomar777
Posts: 614
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2015 8:45 am

Re: Heart Unveils Electric Propulsion System for ES-19 Airliner

Fri Sep 25, 2020 8:19 am

ABpositive wrote:
Jomar777 wrote:
I tend to see these developments, as with the electric cars, with a pitch of salt. Do we really account for the carbon footprint resulting from the process of actually building these batteries/engines/etc.?
I know the Toyota Prius (not an aircraft, I am sorry...) is one of the dirtiest cars to produce because of battery material/exploration plus logistics...


Toyota Prius requires about the same amount of material to build as other cars, as for the material for the battery, I'm not sure how it's less energy demanding than mining/drilling then processing and transporting oil (and that's before any emissions from the car itself).


The problem lies with the kind of material you are actuelly prospecting for, its location and environmental impact. The final result - the batteries - may get a environmentally friendly car (and aircraft) running but, if you see the activities of Rio Tinto, Vale do Rio Doce, etc. you will find that prospection with mercury and large quarries and wastelands are always in the cards.
 
Jomar777
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Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2015 8:45 am

Re: Heart Unveils Electric Propulsion System for ES-19 Airliner

Fri Sep 25, 2020 8:27 am

VSMUT wrote:
Andrw wrote:
I just can't see the market for an aircraft that has 19 seat capacity and flies up to 400km. 19 seaters are not the most popular planes, even tiny saab340 could get 30 people or more. I mean, Air Greenland, Wideroe and alike are not going to sustain the project. And the mentioned UK startup CityClipper? Kind of makes me think what crazy idea is that? I presume it's supposed to be some tiny regional area, but I remember flying Flybe dash8-400 on a number of occasions and I don't remember any flight that would carry less than 40 pax. And after all, Flybe was UK regional airline. The range is also insignificant. They shluld aim at 1000km and than I think, could have a shot.


The economics will presumably be somewhat different. It isn't unthinkable that it will be so much cheaper that a mere 19 seats makes it viable. 400 km actually covers quite a market in Scandinavia. From Copenhagen it will be able to serve the entire domestic network and southern Sweden. From Stockholm it can reach many secondary Finnish destinations. It can cover most of southern Norway from Oslo and will be able to hop up along the coast without any issues.
Let's not forget that aircraft programs tend to evolve. What starts out as a 400 km, 19 seater today could eventually be stretched into a 30 seater that does 800 km.


Andrw wrote:
I totaly agree with Jomar777. Eco-people are shouting at how eco the electricity is, but they never take under consideration the production of the batteries. When that is taken under account, the so called eco cars are not more eco than diesel or petrol. I guess it will be same for airplanes.


We have to start somewhere. The technology doesn't evolve and improve if there isn't any investment into it. Jet engines only became as efficient as they are because airlines kept buying thousands of them.

But let's not forget that there are 2 kinds of environmental problems that we are dealing with. There is the carbon emissions issue, which is the big one that is affecting the climate and is major source for concern. Then there is environmental pollution, which is the big issue with battery production. Environmental pollution kills local wildlife and can cause cancer etc, but does not cause global warming. The latter we can deal with over time. The former we can't.


Jomar777 wrote:
I tend to see these developments, as with the electric cars, with a pitch of salt. Do we really account for the carbon footprint resulting from the process of actually building these batteries/engines/etc.?
I know the Toyota Prius (not an aircraft, I am sorry...) is one of the dirtiest cars to produce because of battery material/exploration plus logistics...


Let's be real though, the petrochemical industry isn't much better in that regard. Ditto for modern jet engines that contain more and more exotic materials.


RJMAZ wrote:
Noshow wrote:
This does look more like made of Lego than being an actual aircraft. Why does it have huge engine pods if it is using electrical engines? The nose looks funny but not efficient. Maybe this is more a technology company they should better call SAAB for the airframe part it seems.

The design looks perfect to me. The batteries are inside these "huge" engine pods. The battery and controller can easily be cooled. You have excellent redundancy with a battery for each motor. A battery fire would have no issue with the safety of the aircraft. The best bit is the battery could even be swapped for a fully charged battery.

It takes me about 3 seconds to swap a battery on my drone.


Not just that, the modular design also allows them to easily swap to new engine and battery types as the technology evolves. That would be difficult if they were embedded into the wings or fuselage.


The problem here is not really the comparison with the petrochemical industry. It is to blame them for high levels of pollution as support to another kind of industry which all it does is to shift the impact elsewhere in the chain. If you consider brent crude oil prospection (location of reserves, drilling, etc.) and our actual use of the final product in the form of diesel, gasoline, aviation fuel, etc., the CO2 footprint is considerable and has to be reviewed. But I am not sure that moving to a solution which all it does is to potentially accrue all this footprint at the beginning and give the illusion for the final user that it is driving, riding, flying on a environmentally friendly vehicle when the true is only that the carbon footprint has effectively being "transferred" to other parts of the chain.
That´s why I wonder if Airbus´ studies on Hydrogen might not be something more feasible.
Imagine a world where we are all going electrical and have absolutely stacks of batteries to recycle and/or produce,,, I struggle to find a suitable place to recycle the AA, AAA batteries for my remote controls, keyboard and mouse nowadays here in the UK... I just wonder how is to replace and dispose those that come in the Tesla I would like to buy...
 
mxaxai
Posts: 2718
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:29 am

Re: Heart Unveils Electric Propulsion System for ES-19 Airliner

Fri Sep 25, 2020 11:15 am

Jomar777 wrote:
Imagine a world where we are all going electrical and have absolutely stacks of batteries to recycle and/or produce,,, I struggle to find a suitable place to recycle the AA, AAA batteries for my remote controls, keyboard and mouse nowadays here in the UK... I just wonder how is to replace and dispose those that come in the Tesla I would like to buy...

The difference between battery production and oil consumption is that the former can, in theory, be done CO2-neutral, whereas burning oil always generates CO2. This can only change by switching to 100% biofuels or synthetic fuels. You can power the mining and production machines with regenerative electricity.

Another thing to consider is that Lithium (or any other parts of the battery) are not consumed and can be recycled. Recycling lithium batteries does not make sense financially, currently, for a number of reasons but with the huge number of old batteries hitting the scrap market in a few years it might. It already works for some other materials, for example some countries recycle 90+% of their aluminum waste. Other common metals are also mostly recycled, e. g. steel, copper, lead and uranium.

You say that you struggle with recycling consumer AA batteries; the issue here is the collection process and the relatively small quantities. For EV batteries, scrapping will be done at a commercial scrapper in large numbers. That makes it far easier to collect, sort and process these resources. It already works quite well for certain parts like catalytic converters that contain small, but significant, amounts of precious metals.

Additionally, batteries can be reused in less demanding applications. For example, an aviation battery could be considered at end of life at 80% of its original capacity. But it can still be used for power grid stabilization for many years.
 
pythoniels
Posts: 41
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2006 7:54 pm

Re: Heart Unveils Electric Propulsion System for ES-19 Airliner

Sat Sep 26, 2020 7:45 am

While I believe now is the time to step up the game and innovate more in aviation, I’m having seconds thoughts on all these electric/hydrogen planes. We’ve all seen what could happen if a lithium ion battery explodes, what if the entire aircraft is made up of this... not to speak about hydrogen.

I hope it will work, but then: 4 engines for 19 passengers! Sweeeet!

Wish them good luck, a €2,5 million investment is peanuts for what is needed to develop an aircraft that’s more of a PC rendering imho.
 
frmrCapCadet
Posts: 4988
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

Re: Heart Unveils Electric Propulsion System for ES-19 Airliner

Sat Sep 26, 2020 1:51 pm

I believe Tesla is prepared to recycle their batteries. Musk has said in the past the recycling makes more sense than giving those batteries a second life. I can't quite get my mind around that, just about everyone in the country has a place to put a big old battery pack that 'only' deliverers 30-70 kWhs.
 
Nicoeddf
Posts: 1090
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2008 7:13 am

Re: Heart Unveils Electric Propulsion System for ES-19 Airliner

Sat Sep 26, 2020 2:27 pm

IFlyVeryLittle wrote:
217 miles is barely coast to coast -- in Florida. I get that developments happen and the range will certainly improve, but seriously? I'm going to fly from Tampa to Daytona Beach (OK, Florida people, bad example given the state of I-4)? But this just doesn't seem like a solution to a problem anyone has right now.


You might want to broaden your horizon to more than the US.
 
jayawarda
Posts: 6
Joined: Fri Sep 11, 2020 3:20 am

Re: Heart Unveils Electric Propulsion System for ES-19 Airliner

Sun Sep 27, 2020 1:03 am

Can someone explain to me how an electric aircraft is supposed to work?

As in:
1. What is the optimal height for cruise? Is 5000 - FL180 a reasonable guess (we are no longer worried about turbojet efficiency)? What is the cruise penalty if we go higher due to less dense air (e.g., to clear the weather)?
2. How fast should you climb? Is it more like 1000 - 1500 fpm ideally to reduce battery drain? If traffic at big airports force faster climbs to jet rates, how much does that compromise range?
3. How do you descend? STOL-like because you have no weight reduction?
4. Then what happens on go-around? How much reserve juice do you need to ensure full "TOGA" power so you get out of the way of other planes and clear obstacles?
5. What does an emergency landing look like (especially due to propeller damage / loss of current)?

My hunch is that if we can get this to work, even <400nm regional types, the actual flying experience will feel more like the 1950s because of the physics - low and slow, small, likely bumpy due to weather. And probably annoying buzz on the ground as a result.

I am not against trying new approaches such as electric planes since it is clear we need something else than the current batch of mid-20th century stuff. Just trying to see how far we can really push with this in the next 20 years, and how the outputs (speed, comfort...) compare.
 
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Aesma
Posts: 14672
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Re: Heart Unveils Electric Propulsion System for ES-19 Airliner

Sun Sep 27, 2020 2:36 am

A lot of negativity in this thread, and pointless comparisons. This is an aircraft made in Scandinavia, for Scandinavia, with support of local governments and the EU. Local governments who will ban other kinds of aircraft anyway. So no worries about commercial viability, they must just deliver on the technology.

I agree with the remark that it would make sense to partner with an actual airplane maker like Saab, though.
 
Jomar777
Posts: 614
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2015 8:45 am

Re: Heart Unveils Electric Propulsion System for ES-19 Airliner

Mon Sep 28, 2020 8:33 am

mxaxai wrote:
Jomar777 wrote:
Imagine a world where we are all going electrical and have absolutely stacks of batteries to recycle and/or produce,,, I struggle to find a suitable place to recycle the AA, AAA batteries for my remote controls, keyboard and mouse nowadays here in the UK... I just wonder how is to replace and dispose those that come in the Tesla I would like to buy...

The difference between battery production and oil consumption is that the former can, in theory, be done CO2-neutral, whereas burning oil always generates CO2. This can only change by switching to 100% biofuels or synthetic fuels. You can power the mining and production machines with regenerative electricity.

Another thing to consider is that Lithium (or any other parts of the battery) are not consumed and can be recycled. Recycling lithium batteries does not make sense financially, currently, for a number of reasons but with the huge number of old batteries hitting the scrap market in a few years it might. It already works for some other materials, for example some countries recycle 90+% of their aluminum waste. Other common metals are also mostly recycled, e. g. steel, copper, lead and uranium.

You say that you struggle with recycling consumer AA batteries; the issue here is the collection process and the relatively small quantities. For EV batteries, scrapping will be done at a commercial scrapper in large numbers. That makes it far easier to collect, sort and process these resources. It already works quite well for certain parts like catalytic converters that contain small, but significant, amounts of precious metals.

Additionally, batteries can be reused in less demanding applications. For example, an aviation battery could be considered at end of life at 80% of its original capacity. But it can still be used for power grid stabilization for many years.


Understand your point but consider that Lithium has to be mined and this is not CO2 free. Powering the mining machineries with electricity is something which is not currently done today because it is very expensive form a commercial point of view. Some machineries are electrical but most equipment like trucks, excavators, etc., for example are not.

Recycling Lithium Batteries might not be commercially viable for a long time yet since we expect volume will play a part on it.
 
mxaxai
Posts: 2718
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:29 am

Re: Heart Unveils Electric Propulsion System for ES-19 Airliner

Mon Sep 28, 2020 11:58 am

Jomar777 wrote:
Understand your point but consider that Lithium has to be mined and this is not CO2 free. Powering the mining machineries with electricity is something which is not currently done today because it is very expensive form a commercial point of view. Some machineries are electrical but most equipment like trucks, excavators, etc., for example are not.

True, we are currently not there yet.

Producing 1 kWh of battery capacity releases 50 - 500 kg of CO2, with typical batteries currently estimated at 150 - 200 kg but newer batteries estimated closer to 60 - 100 kg. Burning kerosene produces 3 kg CO2 per kg kerosene, or 0.25 kg CO2 per kWh. So in a very simplified calculation, you could refuel 500 - 1000 times before the current battery becomes better (assuming that the electricity for charging is 100% renewable).

For cars, studies indicate that electrical vehicles become better if their lifetime use is greater than ~30,000 km, or 1-2 years of daily commute, with 50% renewable electricity. This is probably similar to aircraft but aircraft are used for far longer and more intensely than most cars, so the overall benefit should be larger than for automobiles as long as the battery doesn't degrade too quickly.

In the end, reducing CO2 (and other) emissions 100% depends on more renewable (or nuclear) electricity.
 
frmrCapCadet
Posts: 4988
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

Re: Heart Unveils Electric Propulsion System for ES-19 Airliner

Mon Sep 28, 2020 1:58 pm

Jomar777 wrote:
mxaxai wrote:
Jomar777 wrote:
Imagine a world where we are all going electrical and have absolutely stacks of batteries to recycle and/or produce,,, I struggle to find a suitable place to recycle the AA, AAA batteries for my remote controls, keyboard and mouse nowadays here in the UK... I just wonder how is to replace and dispose those that come in the Tesla I would like to buy...

The difference between battery production and oil consumption is that the former can, in theory, be done CO2-neutral, whereas burning oil always generates CO2. This can only change by switching to 100% biofuels or synthetic fuels. You can power the mining and production machines with regenerative electricity.

Another thing to consider is that Lithium (or any other parts of the battery) are not consumed and can be recycled. Recycling lithium batteries does not make sense financially, currently, for a number of reasons but with the huge number of old batteries hitting the scrap market in a few years it might. It already works for some other materials, for example some countries recycle 90+% of their aluminum waste. Other common metals are also mostly recycled, e. g. steel, copper, lead and uranium.

You say that you struggle with recycling consumer AA batteries; the issue here is the collection process and the relatively small quantities. For EV batteries, scrapping will be done at a commercial scrapper in large numbers. That makes it far easier to collect, sort and process these resources. It already works quite well for certain parts like catalytic converters that contain small, but significant, amounts of precious metals.

Additionally, batteries can be reused in less demanding applications. For example, an aviation battery could be considered at end of life at 80% of its original capacity. But it can still be used for power grid stabilization for many years.


Understand your point but consider that Lithium has to be mined and this is not CO2 free. Powering the mining machineries with electricity is something which is not currently done today because it is very expensive form a commercial point of view. Some machineries are electrical but most equipment like trucks, excavators, etc., for example are not.

Recycling Lithium Batteries might not be commercially viable for a long time yet since we expect volume will play a part on it.


The Centralia coal mine used electric powered excavators for years. An acquaintance now retired used an ultra-big diesel powered bull dozer to push around the 'sausage' (extension cord for the excavator).
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 16329
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Re: Heart Unveils Electric Propulsion System for ES-19 Airliner

Mon Sep 28, 2020 2:48 pm

RJMAZ wrote:
Battery technology has been making breakthrough after breakthrough with new chemistries. Capacity has been increasing by 5-10% every year for the last 10 years maybe even 20 years. The batteries tech working in the labs nearly always ends making it into low rate production in high end products and a few years later after mass production begins he costs come down. The latest battery tech working in the labs shows electricity will easily be able to replace the majority of the worlds aircraft. Over 90% of the worlds aircraft never fly over 1000nm. The 737 global average flight length is only around 1000nm.


I dont think battery technology is what will be widespread in aircraft, I think it will be more likely a hydrogen fuel cell technology, and airports generating the hydrogen and reticulating it on site.

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