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GG22
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Delta announced to phase out 717, 763 & CRJ200.

Sat Sep 26, 2020 9:47 am

Bombardier CRJ-200 to be retired by December '23.
Boeing 717 & 767-300 to be retired by December '25.

source: https://simpleflying.com/delta-retirements-aircraft/
 
raylee67
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Re: Delta announced to phase out 717, 763 & CRJ200.

Sat Sep 26, 2020 10:46 am

I guess the 763 may have a higher value as a BCF then a continuing concern as a pax aircraft. The long haul fleet is going to standardize between A330 and A350 then.

The 764 will become a very small fleet of odd-ball type. However, we can probably expect that, when the situation has sufficiently improved, even if it takes it to 2024 or 2025, Delta will expand its fleet of A339 and A350 to replace the 764. Eventually more of those will be ordered down the road to replace the older A332 and A333 too.

And it still leaves the question of what will replace the large 757 fleet. Boeing better comes up with something good in the next two years. Otherwise, a mix order of A321NEO and NEO-XLR will be likely.
319/20/21 332/33 342/43/45 359/51 388 707 717 732/36/3G/38/39 74R/42/43/44/4E/48 757 762/63 772/7L/73/7W 788/89 D10 M80 135/40/45 175/90 DH1/4 CRJ/R7 L10
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Nicoeddf
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Re: Delta announced to phase out 717, 763 & CRJ200.

Sat Sep 26, 2020 10:51 am

raylee67 wrote:
I guess the 763 may have a higher value as a BCF then a continuing concern as a pax aircraft. The long haul fleet is going to standardize between A330 and A350 then.

The 764 will become a very small fleet of odd-ball type. However, we can probably expect that, when the situation has sufficiently improved, even if it takes it to 2024 or 2025, Delta will expand its fleet of A339 and A350 to replace the 764. Eventually more of those will be ordered down the road to replace the older A332 and A333 too.

And it still leaves the question of what will replace the large 757 fleet. Boeing better comes up with something good in the next two years. Otherwise, a mix order of A321NEO and NEO-XLR will be likely.


A mix order for a 321neo variant is already highly likely. Boeing coming up with something better in the next two years would mean EIS end of the decade.
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dstblj52
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Re: Delta announced to phase out 717, 763 & CRJ200.

Sat Sep 26, 2020 11:08 am

Nicoeddf wrote:
raylee67 wrote:
I guess the 763 may have a higher value as a BCF then a continuing concern as a pax aircraft. The long haul fleet is going to standardize between A330 and A350 then.

The 764 will become a very small fleet of odd-ball type. However, we can probably expect that, when the situation has sufficiently improved, even if it takes it to 2024 or 2025, Delta will expand its fleet of A339 and A350 to replace the 764. Eventually more of those will be ordered down the road to replace the older A332 and A333 too.

And it still leaves the question of what will replace the large 757 fleet. Boeing better comes up with something good in the next two years. Otherwise, a mix order of A321NEO and NEO-XLR will be likely.


A mix order for a 321neo variant is already highly likely. Boeing coming up with something better in the next two years would mean EIS end of the decade.

The thing that killed a Delta max deal last time was CFM wasn't willing to give techops an engine shop for the LEAP series so we might get see Delta ordering the max if that changes, especially given deltas love affair with absolute optimization of capacity route by route hour by hour.
 
B757Forever
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Re: Delta announced to phase out 717, 763 & CRJ200.

Sat Sep 26, 2020 11:22 am

Nicoeddf wrote:
raylee67 wrote:
I guess the 763 may have a higher value as a BCF then a continuing concern as a pax aircraft. The long haul fleet is going to standardize between A330 and A350 then.

The 764 will become a very small fleet of odd-ball type. However, we can probably expect that, when the situation has sufficiently improved, even if it takes it to 2024 or 2025, Delta will expand its fleet of A339 and A350 to replace the 764. Eventually more of those will be ordered down the road to replace the older A332 and A333 too.

And it still leaves the question of what will replace the large 757 fleet. Boeing better comes up with something good in the next two years. Otherwise, a mix order of A321NEO and NEO-XLR will be likely.


A mix order for a 321neo variant is already highly likely. Boeing coming up with something better in the next two years would mean EIS end of the decade.


Delta's pre-covid replacement plan for the 757 was set for later in the 2020's when much of the existing fleet will be approaching 30 years of age. Boeing has a shot at it but they need to get moving now.
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Cointrin330
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Re: Delta announced to phase out 717, 763 & CRJ200.

Sat Sep 26, 2020 11:54 am

Not entirely surprising that the 763 is being phased out. While the bulk of the frames are 1990s builds, it is a large fleet and the cost of installing the new business class seat probably isn't worth it. Delta did a fabulous job of renovating the cabin interiors and upgrading those birds in the late 2000s. It would not surprise me if UA also axed the 763 fleet since almost all are parked. Good riddance to the CRJ-200. That is not an airplane. It is, much like the ERJ-135/140/145, a chamber. Surprised at the 717 but I guess the new A220s make the 717 redundant in this pandemic world.
 
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klm617
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Re: Delta announced to phase out 717, 763 & CRJ200.

Sat Sep 26, 2020 11:57 am

My question is what current aircraft in production can replace the 767. This probably means an end to secondary city TATL flying like IND, MCO, TPA and maybe RDU as anything bigger than a 767 is just to big. What does this mean for routes like ATL-BRU, ZRH and DUS. Does this mean more double connects over CDG and AMS in the Delta network.
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aviator2000
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Re: Delta announced to phase out 717, 763 & CRJ200.

Sat Sep 26, 2020 12:04 pm

klm617 wrote:
My question is what current aircraft in production can replace the 767. This probably means an end to secondary city TATL flying like IND, MCO, TPA and maybe RDU as anything bigger than a 767 is just to big. What does this mean for routes like ATL-BRU, ZRH and DUS. Does this mean more double connects over CDG and AMS in the Delta network.

It looks like it. Not sure about other european markets but BCN has already been cut untill next March.
 
jayunited
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Re: Delta announced to phase out 717, 763 & CRJ200.

Sat Sep 26, 2020 12:28 pm

Nicoeddf wrote:
A mix order for a 321neo variant is already highly likely. Boeing coming up with something better in the next two years would mean EIS end of the decade.



Boeing is not going to come up with anything better, they have had years to launch a MOM and they have consistently dragged their feet. Delta even stated they wanted to be the launch customer for the MOM. Together with United both of these airlines have been begging Boeing for years to come up with some type of MOM yet we still have no decision or clear direction.

Delta will replace those 767-300/400s with a mixture of A330NEOs and A321XLRs. The last major legacy carrier still holding on to their 767s is United Airlines and we already have 50XLRs on order.

Winner will be Airbus and the looser is Boeing
 
mxaxai
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Re: Delta announced to phase out 717, 763 & CRJ200.

Sat Sep 26, 2020 12:43 pm

aviator2000 wrote:
klm617 wrote:
My question is what current aircraft in production can replace the 767. This probably means an end to secondary city TATL flying like IND, MCO, TPA and maybe RDU as anything bigger than a 767 is just to big. What does this mean for routes like ATL-BRU, ZRH and DUS. Does this mean more double connects over CDG and AMS in the Delta network.

It looks like it. Not sure about other european markets but BCN has already been cut untill next March.

https://news.delta.com/delta-brings-bac ... ummer-2021

ATL-BRU, ZRH, DUS have been suspended indefinitely but BRU and ZRH will be served from JFK in summer '21.
 
DLASFlyer
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Re: Delta announced to phase out 717, 763 & CRJ200.

Sat Sep 26, 2020 12:45 pm

jayunited wrote:
Boeing is not going to come up with anything better, they have had years to launch a MOM and they have consistently dragged their feet. Delta even stated they wanted to be the launch customer for the MOM. Together with United both of these airlines have been begging Boeing for years to come up with some type of MOM yet we still have no decision or clear direction.

Meanwhile, American begged for a 737 MAX and look where that got us.
 
brilondon
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Re: Delta announced to phase out 717, 763 & CRJ200.

Sat Sep 26, 2020 12:50 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
Not entirely surprising that the 763 is being phased out. While the bulk of the frames are 1990s builds, it is a large fleet and the cost of installing the new business class seat probably isn't worth it. Delta did a fabulous job of renovating the cabin interiors and upgrading those birds in the late 2000s. It would not surprise me if UA also axed the 763 fleet since almost all are parked. Good riddance to the CRJ-200. That is not an airplane. It is, much like the ERJ-135/140/145, a chamber. Surprised at the 717 but I guess the new A220s make the 717 redundant in this pandemic world.


The A220 seems to be a good replacement for both aircraft types. The CRJ and 717. The 757s would most likely be replaced by A321s. In the covid era, I suspect they don't have much demand so they will have time to sort things out.
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MIflyer12
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Re: Delta announced to phase out 717, 763 & CRJ200.

Sat Sep 26, 2020 12:57 pm

klm617 wrote:
This probably means an end to secondary city TATL flying like IND, MCO, TPA and maybe RDU as anything bigger than a 767 is just to big.


That is a possibility, but a 339 (or 764) isn't just bigger, it's also cheaper to operate per seat. The idea that an aircraft replacement needs to be the same seat count 1:1 really... lacks traction.

klm617 wrote:
Does this mean more double connects over CDG and AMS in the Delta network.


Probably, just like NW did for everything TATL other than LON, FRA, AMS and CDG (with FCO seasonally).

From the SEC filing: Although the actual amount of the charges has not yet been finalized, Delta expects the
aggregate impairment and other related charges to be in a range from $2.0 billion and $2.5 billion, before tax.


That's a lot of (non-cash) money. It does clear the decks for a fleet with much better CASM, but it's going to require a lot of $$$ for new aircraft or a much, much smaller airline.
Last edited by MIflyer12 on Sat Sep 26, 2020 1:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
HVNandrew
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Re: Delta announced to phase out 717, 763 & CRJ200.

Sat Sep 26, 2020 1:00 pm

The 717 fills a niche role in the DL network; there are going to be a lot of small and mid-sized markets in the southeast, northeast and midwest that will lose mainline service. They may have similar capacity, but the A220 isn't meant for the same missions. I don't think you'll see the A220 replacing the 717 on routes like ATL-LIT, for example; the A220 is meant for longer, thinner routes as opposed to the short hops of the 717. I'm guessing a lot of those 717 routes will revert to the CR7/CR9, unless some of the markets could sustain an upgauge to the 319?
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Delta announced to phase out 717, 763 & CRJ200.

Sat Sep 26, 2020 1:03 pm

HVNandrew wrote:
The 717 fills a niche role in the DL network; there are going to be a lot of small and mid-sized markets in the southeast, northeast and midwest that will lose mainline service. They may have similar capacity, but the A220 isn't meant for the same missions.


That's a wholly artificial constraint you're imposing. A220s don't do the short routes today because DL has 717s for that; A220s do the long, thin routes because 717s lack the range.
 
HVNandrew
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Re: Delta announced to phase out 717, 763 & CRJ200.

Sat Sep 26, 2020 1:13 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
HVNandrew wrote:
The 717 fills a niche role in the DL network; there are going to be a lot of small and mid-sized markets in the southeast, northeast and midwest that will lose mainline service. They may have similar capacity, but the A220 isn't meant for the same missions.


That's a wholly artificial constraint you're imposing. A220s don't do the short routes today because DL has 717s for that; A220s do the long, thin routes because 717s lack the range.

But that's my point; why wouldn't they continue to do those routes going forward? I don't see them moving off of longer, thinner routes (where their range is needed) en masse to cover the routes currently flown by the 717.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Delta announced to phase out 717, 763 & CRJ200.

Sat Sep 26, 2020 1:19 pm

raylee67 wrote:
I guess the 763 may have a higher value as a BCF then a continuing concern as a pax aircraft. The long haul fleet is going to standardize between A330 and A350 then.

The 764 will become a very small fleet of odd-ball type. However, we can probably expect that, when the situation has sufficiently improved, even if it takes it to 2024 or 2025, Delta will expand its fleet of A339 and A350 to replace the 764. Eventually more of those will be ordered down the road to replace the older A332 and A333 too.

And it still leaves the question of what will replace the large 757 fleet. Boeing better comes up with something good in the next two years. Otherwise, a mix order of A321NEO and NEO-XLR will be likely.


By 2025, most of the B764 fleet will be needing another D-check. I would expect the BCRF livery to transfer to an A339. I would expect the B764s to be retired upon reaching that D-check. As for the B763s, the GE-powered frames (that were ordered new by DL) would likely be sold for conversion. The PW ones though will likely be almost out of hours.

Regarding the B712, I see more BCS3s being ordered to cover their routes. Then that puts pressure on HA to consider a B712 replacement, since DL currently operates the majority of the in-service fleet.
Last edited by aemoreira1981 on Sat Sep 26, 2020 1:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
UWPAviation
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Re: Delta announced to phase out 717, 763 & CRJ200.

Sat Sep 26, 2020 1:21 pm

klm617 wrote:
My question is what current aircraft in production can replace the 767. This probably means an end to secondary city TATL flying like IND, MCO, TPA and maybe RDU as anything bigger than a 767 is just to big. What does this mean for routes like ATL-BRU, ZRH and DUS. Does this mean more double connects over CDG and AMS in the Delta network.


Yeah it's sad unfortunately. However this is the new reality. Long-haul will be for hubs only.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Delta announced to phase out 717, 763 & CRJ200.

Sat Sep 26, 2020 1:24 pm

jayunited wrote:
Boeing is not going to come up with anything better, they have had years to launch a MOM and they have consistently dragged their feet. Delta even stated they wanted to be the launch customer for the MOM. Together with United both of these airlines have been begging Boeing for years to come up with some type of MOM yet we still have no decision or clear direction.

Delta will replace those 767-300/400s with a mixture of A330NEOs and A321XLRs. The last major legacy carrier still holding on to their 767s is United Airlines and we already have 50XLRs on order.

Winner will be Airbus and the looser is Boeing

Yep. All three of the US3 have ordered A321. The only hope to be in the game was to have built something a bit bigger and better than A321 to capture what was left of the757 and 767 market, but Boeing could not make the numbers work. We'd have to say that even if there was a MOM being developed now it would be getting shelved. Boeing is now $60B in debt due to MCAS and COVID, and that's not funny money, it's actual debt. They are in no position to be doing a clean sheet any time soon.

As for DL, why does bringing in these end of life dates improve their financials? You would think the idea would be to extend the lives of these older paid for aircraft and avoid buying replacements for as long as possible.
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FlyingViking
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Re: Delta announced to phase out 717, 763 & CRJ200.

Sat Sep 26, 2020 1:52 pm

klm617 wrote:
My question is what current aircraft in production can replace the 767. This probably means an end to secondary city TATL flying like IND, MCO, TPA and maybe RDU as anything bigger than a 767 is just to big. What does this mean for routes like ATL-BRU, ZRH and DUS. Does this mean more double connects over CDG and AMS in the Delta network.


In another thread from last year (I think) I was floating the idea that the 787-8 would be a perfect one for one capacity replacement for the 767-300ER. Before Covid there was quite a few open slots on the 787 production line from 2021-22 and forward. Would Boing have given a big enough discount for Delta to buy? I think so.
In light of yesterdays news I think the 321XLR will be a replacement for a lot of the 767-300's, and just maybe, if post Covid international begins to come back in force, just maybe a dusting off of the 787-8. I'd suspect an order by middle to late next year if . JMHO
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Delta announced to phase out 717, 763 & CRJ200.

Sat Sep 26, 2020 2:00 pm

Revelation wrote:
Boeing is now $60B in debt due to MCAS and COVID, and that's not funny money, it's actual debt. They are in no position to be doing a clean sheet any time soon.


$60 Billion in debt really isn't bad for a firm Boeing's (historical) size, with a large and stable military business, and long product life cycles. AFAIK Boeing is still investment-grade. But this is a DL thread.

Revelation wrote:
As for DL, why does bringing in these end of life dates improve their financials? You would think the idea would be to extend the lives of these older paid for aircraft and avoid buying replacements for as long as possible.


It's housecleaning. They're writing off $Billions while every carrier is losing $$$ (and so these actions don't get quite the investor recognition they would in better times). They'll be in a much better position to make more $$$ when good times return: lower fleet operating costs and fewer crew constraints because of fleet simplification, to start.

Boeing has clearly missed the MOM/NMA window for 757 replacement. Cheap 787-8s might still work as 763/764 replacements. DL doesn't need to order anything to replace the 757s -- they already have 321neos on order. I'm betting on MAX 8s to start replacing 320s - and then the 319s by upgauging - within four years.
 
VictorKilo
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Re: Delta announced to phase out 717, 763 & CRJ200.

Sat Sep 26, 2020 2:13 pm

Revelation wrote:

As for DL, why does bringing in these end of life dates improve their financials? You would think the idea would be to extend the lives of these older paid for aircraft and avoid buying replacements for as long as possible.


DL gets to write off the aircraft today and still fly them for another five years. It will improve their numbers for the next five years since they aren’t depreciating these assets every quarter - they take their lumps now when they will have major losses anyways.

Knowing DL they will be opportunistic in backfilling this capacity. With scores of built but NTU frames at Boeing and Airbus, cancelled orders, fewer new orders, lease returns from bankrupt carriers, lease returns from carriers backfilling grounded MAXs, etc, DL can buy used, leased used, get a better deal on new planes, or eliminate the capacity depending on how things play out over the next five years. DL can also upgauge and reduce frequency (especially at ATL), replace 763 flying transcon in the US with narrow body, and fly the 321XLR on shorter TATL flights. They’ve got options, and that’s the position DL likes to be in.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Delta announced to phase out 717, 763 & CRJ200.

Sat Sep 26, 2020 2:31 pm

While this is big news in the sense its the first time they indicated actual dates for these fleet retirements, the announcement in the 8-K filing really isn't all that unexpected and in reality only likely pulls ahead the pre-covid retirement plans for these fleet types by 1-2 years.

What this indicates to me is the following:

- Taking the non-cash write-down now as said when they already are recognizing losses and take the hit now versus on-going
- They have decided to stop doing any further HMV / heavy maintenance work on those fleet types, so the timing of the last frames to go through would've been 2019. Thus the frames that are due for HMVs in 2020 are done, and the ones due in 2021 will go out when they run out of green-time
- This ties into the broader fleet plan, so we now are starting to see the plan for the current fleet, we haven't seen the revised delivery schedule for all the Airbus aircraft on-order; there was already sufficient capacity on-order between the A359, A339, A321NEO, A220s to cover most of this in the out years.
- Some of the plans in terms of the B763 for example were pre-covid based on continued growth and expansion beyond 2019 peak numbers; we obviously aren't gettting back to those numbers for 5-10 years

---
B763 - While this is the first time we've seen an official date (Dec 2025) it really is maybe 1-2 year prior to where they were scheduled to be retired pre-COVID. The aircraft were all basically at, near, or recently through their last heavy maintenance cycles. Considering the backlog of A339 orders/deliveries, the writing was on the wall. Announced last quarter was the early retirement of 7 B763s which were likely all due for heavy maintenance over the next year.

B712 - there has been a lot of rumor and speculation about this fleet. The fleet had been primarily leases with renewals coming due over the next several years. Rumors about keeping to 2030 and installing PTVs prior to Covid, rumors about working a deal with Boeing for 737 MAX a few months ago. An airworthiness directive that would require seats to be replaced by the end of 2022 that may or may not have been extended. In reality, even pre-covid keeping them to 2030 seemed like a stretch especially with the backlog of A220 orders. I honestly right now more surprised they are keeping them until 2025 versus what easily could've been a decision to let them go in 2021 or 2022 in the covid era. The part that we don't know yet is how they've renegotiated all the Airbus deliveries over the next few years. Right now only ~45 of the 91 are flying, it will be interesting to see if they reactivate the ones in storage.

CR2 - I personally don't have the hate against this type that so many do, but I get it. I have no issue with them on the short flights into small markets, granted that I was used to flying SF3 and/or the "Bro into back in the day. (Full disclosure - was a fan of turboprops, thought they were pretty cool). Granted, back in the day flew a CR2 on SLC-MSP next to a dude who was like 6'5 with football lineman shoulders - not cool. Anyways, this fleet was approaching its twilight anyways. This obviously applies to the DL-owned CR2s which are operated by Endeavor (9E). Unclear exactly if this impacts the Skywest (OO) owned CR2s that primarily do EAS-flying. I think the Skywest at-risk flying was terminated with Covid and that has reverted to flying under capacity purchase agreements. Some of the flying will simply go to larger 2-class RJs, the EAS stuff will stay under EAS contracts maybe still with CR2s, but there could be some small market fall-out. 50-seat flying is in its twilight anyways at all of the US3.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Delta announced to phase out 717, 763 & CRJ200.

Sat Sep 26, 2020 2:42 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
As for DL, why does bringing in these end of life dates improve their financials? You would think the idea would be to extend the lives of these older paid for aircraft and avoid buying replacements for as long as possible.


It's housecleaning. They're writing off $Billions while every carrier is losing $$$ (and so these actions don't get quite the investor recognition they would in better times). They'll be in a much better position to make more $$$ when good times return: lower fleet operating costs and fewer crew constraints because of fleet simplification, to start.

That's prety much what DL has been doing since the DL/NW merger; it did work great for the company, for the investors and for the employees. Yet, a.net loves to hate DL and their forward-looking mindset (which pretty much ensure smooth sailing ahead, even with unforeseen bumps in the road); go figure.
 
HNLSLCPDX
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Re: Delta announced to phase out 717, 763 & CRJ200.

Sat Sep 26, 2020 2:47 pm

brilondon wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
Not entirely surprising that the 763 is being phased out. While the bulk of the frames are 1990s builds, it is a large fleet and the cost of installing the new business class seat probably isn't worth it. Delta did a fabulous job of renovating the cabin interiors and upgrading those birds in the late 2000s. It would not surprise me if UA also axed the 763 fleet since almost all are parked. Good riddance to the CRJ-200. That is not an airplane. It is, much like the ERJ-135/140/145, a chamber. Surprised at the 717 but I guess the new A220s make the 717 redundant in this pandemic world.


The A220 seems to be a good replacement for both aircraft types. The CRJ and 717. The 757s would most likely be replaced by A321s. In the covid era, I suspect they don't have much demand so they will have time to sort things out.


I disagree with you. I don’t see DL wanting to put a A220 on routes such that are served with a CRJ200 such as ATL-VLD, SLC-CDC, JFK-ROC, etc. I would bet the CRJ700/900 will replace the 200.
 
N292UX
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Re: Delta announced to phase out 717, 763 & CRJ200.

Sat Sep 26, 2020 2:55 pm

Does DL make a move for CRJ-550s?
 
crazyjaydawg
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Re: Delta announced to phase out 717, 763 & CRJ200.

Sat Sep 26, 2020 2:57 pm

Revelation wrote:
As for DL, why does bringing in these end of life dates improve their financials? You would think the idea would be to extend the lives of these older paid for aircraft and avoid buying replacements for as long as possible.

DL gets to take the write down at today’s market value. This month will probably be the cheapest that the airplanes will be for the foreseeable future.

When they sell the aircraft in 1-5 years, they will realize the actual cash that they get for them (or their parts) but accounting will have written down the sale/retirement at (today’s) most likely lower price.

It’s simply a smart financial lever that they are pulling.
 
UA748i
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Re: Delta announced to phase out 717, 763 & CRJ200.

Sat Sep 26, 2020 3:04 pm

Considering the state of Boeing, and the abundance of missed opportunities to launch a new aircraft, I fully expect DL to buy the A321XLR in the not so distant future to replace the 752s.

I cant see any MAX orders for DL either. The A220-300 is going to be a fantastic airframe for DL, and if Airbus launches the A225 in the years ahead, I can almost guarantee that DL will be on the bandwagon immediately.

I expect the 764s to follow close behind. Assuming the A321XLR is ordered to replace the 757s, the last Boeing aircraft at DL by later decade will be the aging 738s and 737-900ERs
 
TonyClifton
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Re: Delta announced to phase out 717, 763 & CRJ200.

Sat Sep 26, 2020 3:11 pm

N292UX wrote:
Does DL make a move for CRJ-550s?

Not really enough CRJ-700 feedstock to make it worthwhile. The ex-Comair tails at Endeavor are probably 2002-4 builds. Not worth the money to refurbish, especially right now, for a jet that will soon be 20.
 
Cubsrule
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Re: Delta announced to phase out 717, 763 & CRJ200.

Sat Sep 26, 2020 3:14 pm

UA748i wrote:
Considering the state of Boeing, and the abundance of missed opportunities to launch a new aircraft, I fully expect DL to buy the A321XLR in the not so distant future to replace the 752s.

I cant see any MAX orders for DL either. The A220-300 is going to be a fantastic airframe for DL, and if Airbus launches the A225 in the years ahead, I can almost guarantee that DL will be on the bandwagon immediately.

I expect the 764s to follow close behind. Assuming the A321XLR is ordered to replace the 757s, the last Boeing aircraft at DL by later decade will be the aging 738s and 737-900ERs


The 753 situation is interesting. These days they are extremely low cycle aircraft. ATL-SLC and LAX-MSP are about the shortest routes they do on a regular basis and the utilization isn’t that high. With cheapish fuel, CASM is probably better than any other narrowbody on the market. It’s a small fleet but with lots of other 757s in service maybe that’s okay.
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UA748i
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Re: Delta announced to phase out 717, 763 & CRJ200.

Sat Sep 26, 2020 3:16 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
UA748i wrote:
Considering the state of Boeing, and the abundance of missed opportunities to launch a new aircraft, I fully expect DL to buy the A321XLR in the not so distant future to replace the 752s.

I cant see any MAX orders for DL either. The A220-300 is going to be a fantastic airframe for DL, and if Airbus launches the A225 in the years ahead, I can almost guarantee that DL will be on the bandwagon immediately.

I expect the 764s to follow close behind. Assuming the A321XLR is ordered to replace the 757s, the last Boeing aircraft at DL by later decade will be the aging 738s and 737-900ERs


The 753 situation is interesting. These days they are extremely low cycle aircraft. ATL-SLC and LAX-MSP are about the shortest routes they do on a regular basis and the utilization isn’t that high. With cheapish fuel, CASM is probably better than any other narrowbody on the market. It’s a small fleet but with lots of other 757s in service maybe that’s okay.


Agreed. For now, that seems okay. Keeping them for higher density routes seems reasonable.
 
Newark727
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Re: Delta announced to phase out 717, 763 & CRJ200.

Sat Sep 26, 2020 3:19 pm

Doesn't this imply the 764 fleet is on the chopping block within the next few years as well?
 
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Re: Delta announced to phase out 717, 763 & CRJ200.

Sat Sep 26, 2020 3:19 pm

TonyClifton wrote:
N292UX wrote:
Does DL make a move for CRJ-550s?

Not really enough CRJ-700 feedstock to make it worthwhile. The ex-Comair tails at Endeavor are probably 2002-4 builds. Not worth the money to refurbish, especially right now, for a jet that will soon be 20.


Let United have them to burn cash even faster, is probably Delta's plan.
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Re: Delta announced to phase out 717, 763 & CRJ200.

Sat Sep 26, 2020 3:21 pm

UA748i wrote:
Considering the state of Boeing, and the abundance of missed opportunities to launch a new aircraft, I fully expect DL to buy the A321XLR in the not so distant future to replace the 752s.

It'll be interesting to see. It's probably the one model that keeps a lot of pricing power since we already see examples of A321 replacing wide body flying. It already has 450+ orders and won't EIS till 2023 ( ref: https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/stories ... pdate.html ). Of course we don't know how solid that backlog will be going forward. Maybe DL can get an advantage by taking delivery positions that others drop.
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UA748i
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Re: Delta announced to phase out 717, 763 & CRJ200.

Sat Sep 26, 2020 3:26 pm

I reckon you'd be hard pressed to find anyone that will cancel a NEO order these days, let alone A321s.

If DL ordered 100x today, They probably wouldn't see the first ones before 2024-2025.

I wonder, do they have conversion rights for their current order of A321neos?
 
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DocLightning
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Re: Delta announced to phase out 717, 763 & CRJ200.

Sat Sep 26, 2020 3:27 pm

klm617 wrote:
My question is what current aircraft in production can replace the 767. This probably means an end to secondary city TATL flying like IND, MCO, TPA and maybe RDU as anything bigger than a 767 is just to big. What does this mean for routes like ATL-BRU, ZRH and DUS. Does this mean more double connects over CDG and AMS in the Delta network.


The 321LR. It's not quite as big but I remember AA saying that the 321NEO carried all of the F, all of the J and 70% of the Y of a 762 while burning ½ the fuel. So with a 321LR, DL could continue to serve these routes. They'd need to decide whether to operate one or two flights per day, but this would be a logical successor. I'm sure the 763 wasn't a perfect fit for any of these routes, but it was close enough, so the A321LR will also not be a perfect fit, but close enough.

I love the 767, but the writing is on the wall. I hope that Boeing does come up with a 2-3-2 cabin medium-haul aircraft with an elliptical cross-section. There is a market for such an aircraft. But with Boeing's bungling of the 787 and MAX, I'm not sure that they will have the resources to get to work on a new type in time for DL.
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Cubsrule
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Re: Delta announced to phase out 717, 763 & CRJ200.

Sat Sep 26, 2020 3:31 pm

DocLightning wrote:
klm617 wrote:
My question is what current aircraft in production can replace the 767. This probably means an end to secondary city TATL flying like IND, MCO, TPA and maybe RDU as anything bigger than a 767 is just to big. What does this mean for routes like ATL-BRU, ZRH and DUS. Does this mean more double connects over CDG and AMS in the Delta network.


The 321LR. It's not quite as big but I remember AA saying that the 321NEO carried all of the F, all of the J and 70% of the Y of a 762 while burning ½ the fuel. So with a 321LR, DL could continue to serve these routes. They'd need to decide whether to operate one or two flights per day, but this would be a logical successor. I'm sure the 763 wasn't a perfect fit for any of these routes, but it was close enough, so the A321LR will also not be a perfect fit, but close enough.

I love the 767, but the writing is on the wall. I hope that Boeing does come up with a 2-3-2 cabin medium-haul aircraft with an elliptical cross-section. There is a market for such an aircraft. But with Boeing's bungling of the 787 and MAX, I'm not sure that they will have the resources to get to work on a new type in time for DL.


I think we need to see how the 321LR performs in long haul service (especially with headwinds) before penciling it in for East coast-Central Europe or Midwest-Western Europe.
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ADM94
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Re: Delta announced to phase out 717, 763 & CRJ200.

Sat Sep 26, 2020 3:51 pm

mxaxai wrote:
aviator2000 wrote:
klm617 wrote:
My question is what current aircraft in production can replace the 767. This probably means an end to secondary city TATL flying like IND, MCO, TPA and maybe RDU as anything bigger than a 767 is just to big. What does this mean for routes like ATL-BRU, ZRH and DUS. Does this mean more double connects over CDG and AMS in the Delta network.

It looks like it. Not sure about other european markets but BCN has already been cut untill next March.

https://news.delta.com/delta-brings-bac ... ummer-2021

ATL-BRU, ZRH, DUS have been suspended indefinitely but BRU and ZRH will be served from JFK in summer '21.


JFK-ZRH was already being served with the reconfigured 764s, so the 763 retirement was probably a non-issue for that route anyway. DL is generally moving towards lower-density configurations on their long-haul fleet, which means replacing the 763 with larger widebodies is less of a jump in capacity. For example, in the new config the 764 only seats 12 more than the low-J 763s, and I imagine the operating costs aren't drastically higher, which makes the 764 a pretty natural replacement for the 763 on routes that were performing well. The incoming 339s seat about 20 less than the 333s, which reduces the gap in capacity compared with the 763 or old-config 764, and the new engines likely mitigate the difference in operating costs compared to the 333. For some of the shorter, thinner routes the 763 was serving, the international 752s (or a hypothetical—but not unlikely—A321XLR replacement) could probably be used.

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
This obviously applies to the DL-owned CR2s which are operated by Endeavor (9E). Unclear exactly if this impacts the Skywest (OO) owned CR2s that primarily do EAS-flying. I think the Skywest at-risk flying was terminated with Covid and that has reverted to flying under capacity purchase agreements. Some of the flying will simply go to larger 2-class RJs, the EAS stuff will stay under EAS contracts maybe still with CR2s, but there could be some small market fall-out. 50-seat flying is in its twilight anyways at all of the US3.


It's actually the opposite for OO. CPA flying will all be terminated by year's-end, but at-risk flying will continue as-is. I believe this was already being planned pre-COVID. SkyWest holds all of the EAS contracts, not Delta, so if DL at-risk flying were to be terminated, SkyWest would still be obligated to operate to those cities, likely under a different brand.
318 319 320 321 332 333 346 359 388 AR1 712 722 733 734 735 736 73G 738 739 752 753 763 764 77E 77L 788 789 CRJ CR7 CR9 CS1 D93 DH4 ERD ER4 E75 E90 F70 100 M82 M83 M88 M90
 
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Re: Delta announced to phase out 717, 763 & CRJ200.

Sat Sep 26, 2020 3:59 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
While this is big news in the sense its the first time they indicated actual dates for these fleet retirements, the announcement in the 8-K filing really isn't all that unexpected and in reality only likely pulls ahead the pre-covid retirement plans for these fleet types by 1-2 years.

What this indicates to me is the following:

- Taking the non-cash write-down now as said when they already are recognizing losses and take the hit now versus on-going
- They have decided to stop doing any further HMV / heavy maintenance work on those fleet types, so the timing of the last frames to go through would've been 2019. Thus the frames that are due for HMVs in 2020 are done, and the ones due in 2021 will go out when they run out of green-time
- This ties into the broader fleet plan, so we now are starting to see the plan for the current fleet, we haven't seen the revised delivery schedule for all the Airbus aircraft on-order; there was already sufficient capacity on-order between the A359, A339, A321NEO, A220s to cover most of this in the out years.
- Some of the plans in terms of the B763 for example were pre-covid based on continued growth and expansion beyond 2019 peak numbers; we obviously aren't gettting back to those numbers for 5-10 years

---
B763 - While this is the first time we've seen an official date (Dec 2025) it really is maybe 1-2 year prior to where they were scheduled to be retired pre-COVID. The aircraft were all basically at, near, or recently through their last heavy maintenance cycles. Considering the backlog of A339 orders/deliveries, the writing was on the wall. Announced last quarter was the early retirement of 7 B763s which were likely all due for heavy maintenance over the next year.

B712 - there has been a lot of rumor and speculation about this fleet. The fleet had been primarily leases with renewals coming due over the next several years. Rumors about keeping to 2030 and installing PTVs prior to Covid, rumors about working a deal with Boeing for 737 MAX a few months ago. An airworthiness directive that would require seats to be replaced by the end of 2022 that may or may not have been extended. In reality, even pre-covid keeping them to 2030 seemed like a stretch especially with the backlog of A220 orders. I honestly right now more surprised they are keeping them until 2025 versus what easily could've been a decision to let them go in 2021 or 2022 in the covid era. The part that we don't know yet is how they've renegotiated all the Airbus deliveries over the next few years. Right now only ~45 of the 91 are flying, it will be interesting to see if they reactivate the ones in storage.

CR2 - I personally don't have the hate against this type that so many do, but I get it. I have no issue with them on the short flights into small markets, granted that I was used to flying SF3 and/or the "Bro into back in the day. (Full disclosure - was a fan of turboprops, thought they were pretty cool). Granted, back in the day flew a CR2 on SLC-MSP next to a dude who was like 6'5 with football lineman shoulders - not cool. Anyways, this fleet was approaching its twilight anyways. This obviously applies to the DL-owned CR2s which are operated by Endeavor (9E). Unclear exactly if this impacts the Skywest (OO) owned CR2s that primarily do EAS-flying. I think the Skywest at-risk flying was terminated with Covid and that has reverted to flying under capacity purchase agreements. Some of the flying will simply go to larger 2-class RJs, the EAS stuff will stay under EAS contracts maybe still with CR2s, but there could be some small market fall-out. 50-seat flying is in its twilight anyways at all of the US3.



I don't have hate for the CR2 either but it doesn't belong on routes like DTW-BUF/ALB,ROC/ABE/GSO/GSP/YYZ/YUL NW never flew that small of a plane on those routes and it detracts from customers using DTW for their connections for said reason. It is more of a plane for DTW-LAN/FNT/AZO/TVC/SBN/FWA/ and the like. They CR2 without a doubt has had a negative impact on the Detroit hub more so than any other.
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klm617
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Re: Delta announced to phase out 717, 763 & CRJ200.

Sat Sep 26, 2020 4:01 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
DocLightning wrote:
klm617 wrote:
My question is what current aircraft in production can replace the 767. This probably means an end to secondary city TATL flying like IND, MCO, TPA and maybe RDU as anything bigger than a 767 is just to big. What does this mean for routes like ATL-BRU, ZRH and DUS. Does this mean more double connects over CDG and AMS in the Delta network.


The 321LR. It's not quite as big but I remember AA saying that the 321NEO carried all of the F, all of the J and 70% of the Y of a 762 while burning ½ the fuel. So with a 321LR, DL could continue to serve these routes. They'd need to decide whether to operate one or two flights per day, but this would be a logical successor. I'm sure the 763 wasn't a perfect fit for any of these routes, but it was close enough, so the A321LR will also not be a perfect fit, but close enough.

I love the 767, but the writing is on the wall. I hope that Boeing does come up with a 2-3-2 cabin medium-haul aircraft with an elliptical cross-section. There is a market for such an aircraft. But with Boeing's bungling of the 787 and MAX, I'm not sure that they will have the resources to get to work on a new type in time for DL.


I think we need to see how the 321LR performs in long haul service (especially with headwinds) before penciling it in for East coast-Central Europe or Midwest-Western Europe.


And the 321LR certainly can not do ATL to central Europe either.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
JoseSalazar
Posts: 257
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Re: Delta announced to phase out 717, 763 & CRJ200.

Sat Sep 26, 2020 4:07 pm

klm617 wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
While this is big news in the sense its the first time they indicated actual dates for these fleet retirements, the announcement in the 8-K filing really isn't all that unexpected and in reality only likely pulls ahead the pre-covid retirement plans for these fleet types by 1-2 years.

What this indicates to me is the following:

- Taking the non-cash write-down now as said when they already are recognizing losses and take the hit now versus on-going
- They have decided to stop doing any further HMV / heavy maintenance work on those fleet types, so the timing of the last frames to go through would've been 2019. Thus the frames that are due for HMVs in 2020 are done, and the ones due in 2021 will go out when they run out of green-time
- This ties into the broader fleet plan, so we now are starting to see the plan for the current fleet, we haven't seen the revised delivery schedule for all the Airbus aircraft on-order; there was already sufficient capacity on-order between the A359, A339, A321NEO, A220s to cover most of this in the out years.
- Some of the plans in terms of the B763 for example were pre-covid based on continued growth and expansion beyond 2019 peak numbers; we obviously aren't gettting back to those numbers for 5-10 years

---
B763 - While this is the first time we've seen an official date (Dec 2025) it really is maybe 1-2 year prior to where they were scheduled to be retired pre-COVID. The aircraft were all basically at, near, or recently through their last heavy maintenance cycles. Considering the backlog of A339 orders/deliveries, the writing was on the wall. Announced last quarter was the early retirement of 7 B763s which were likely all due for heavy maintenance over the next year.

B712 - there has been a lot of rumor and speculation about this fleet. The fleet had been primarily leases with renewals coming due over the next several years. Rumors about keeping to 2030 and installing PTVs prior to Covid, rumors about working a deal with Boeing for 737 MAX a few months ago. An airworthiness directive that would require seats to be replaced by the end of 2022 that may or may not have been extended. In reality, even pre-covid keeping them to 2030 seemed like a stretch especially with the backlog of A220 orders. I honestly right now more surprised they are keeping them until 2025 versus what easily could've been a decision to let them go in 2021 or 2022 in the covid era. The part that we don't know yet is how they've renegotiated all the Airbus deliveries over the next few years. Right now only ~45 of the 91 are flying, it will be interesting to see if they reactivate the ones in storage.

CR2 - I personally don't have the hate against this type that so many do, but I get it. I have no issue with them on the short flights into small markets, granted that I was used to flying SF3 and/or the "Bro into back in the day. (Full disclosure - was a fan of turboprops, thought they were pretty cool). Granted, back in the day flew a CR2 on SLC-MSP next to a dude who was like 6'5 with football lineman shoulders - not cool. Anyways, this fleet was approaching its twilight anyways. This obviously applies to the DL-owned CR2s which are operated by Endeavor (9E). Unclear exactly if this impacts the Skywest (OO) owned CR2s that primarily do EAS-flying. I think the Skywest at-risk flying was terminated with Covid and that has reverted to flying under capacity purchase agreements. Some of the flying will simply go to larger 2-class RJs, the EAS stuff will stay under EAS contracts maybe still with CR2s, but there could be some small market fall-out. 50-seat flying is in its twilight anyways at all of the US3.



I don't have hate for the CR2 either but it doesn't belong on routes like DTW-BUF/ALB,ROC/ABE/GSO/GSP/YYZ/YUL NW never flew that small of a plane on those routes and it detracts from customers using DTW for their connections for said reason. It is more of a plane for DTW-LAN/FNT/AZO/TVC/SBN/FWA/ and the like. They CR2 without a doubt has had a negative impact on the Detroit hub more so than any other.



I actually think they are more of a plane for destinations like MZJ/BYH/IGM...one way, of course.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Delta announced to phase out 717, 763 & CRJ200.

Sat Sep 26, 2020 4:10 pm

raylee67 wrote:
I guess the 763 may have a higher value as a BCF then a continuing concern as a pax aircraft. The long haul fleet is going to standardize between A330 and A350 then.

The 764 will become a very small fleet of odd-ball type. However, we can probably expect that, when the situation has sufficiently improved, even if it takes it to 2024 or 2025, Delta will expand its fleet of A339 and A350 to replace the 764. Eventually more of those will be ordered down the road to replace the older A332 and A333 too.

And it still leaves the question of what will replace the large 757 fleet. Boeing better comes up with something good in the next two years. Otherwise, a mix order of A321NEO and NEO-XLR will be likely.


Why wouldn't they just get the XLR? Delta is trying to simplify their fleet. No sense in adding another type when they already have the A321. I just don't see any room for future Boeing orders.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Delta announced to phase out 717, 763 & CRJ200.

Sat Sep 26, 2020 4:11 pm

No the 764 and 753 aren’t yet on the chopping block. But they will likely go out in the 2026-2028 timeframe.
 
jimatkins
Posts: 57
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Re: Delta announced to phase out 717, 763 & CRJ200.

Sat Sep 26, 2020 4:17 pm

So will HA go after those 717s, or has their demand for interisland been satisfied?
 
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Midwestindy
Posts: 5364
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Re: Delta announced to phase out 717, 763 & CRJ200.

Sat Sep 26, 2020 4:31 pm

This, I thought was interesting:

Image

CR2 only stations
Image

https://twitter.com/JustinMeyerKC/statu ... 57024?s=20
Status for 2019/2020: AAdvantage Platinum, Delta Gold, Southwest A-List
 
PennPal
Posts: 243
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Re: Delta announced to phase out 717, 763 & CRJ200.

Sat Sep 26, 2020 4:31 pm

Will be saddened to see the 717's go. The opportunity to fly on one is a reason why I prefer Delta when I travel.
 
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NWAESC
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Re: Delta announced to phase out 717, 763 & CRJ200.

Sat Sep 26, 2020 4:42 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
HVNandrew wrote:
The 717 fills a niche role in the DL network; there are going to be a lot of small and mid-sized markets in the southeast, northeast and midwest that will lose mainline service. They may have similar capacity, but the A220 isn't meant for the same missions.


That's a wholly artificial constraint you're imposing. A220s don't do the short routes today because DL has 717s for that; A220s do the long, thin routes because 717s lack the range.


+1

I don't think that the 717's going away sentences a station to all CRJ's all the time. DL is far too neurotic precise with their network planning. Depending on demand recovery, in any given market you could see these replaced with A220's, E75's, A319's or any combo of the above.
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DocLightning
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Re: Delta announced to phase out 717, 763 & CRJ200.

Sat Sep 26, 2020 4:45 pm

klm617 wrote:

And the 321LR certainly can not do ATL to central Europe either.


The XLR might. And remember how the A330 initially was a TATL aircraft with an endurance of 8-10 hours and now it can do over 15? Remember how the A320 was designed to be able to do a US transcon and now can do TATL? Airbus is famous for their relentless and incremental improvements to their products. I will be very interested to see what they have managed to get the A321 to do in five years.
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lightsaber
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Re: Delta announced to phase out 717, 763 & CRJ200.

Sat Sep 26, 2020 4:47 pm

A more reputable link:
https://www.flightglobal.com/fleets/del ... 0September.

I've learned not to quote SimpleFlying. I've been rightfully burned quoting them here on a.net as they are *not* a dependable source.
Delta to retire aircraft and take up to $2.5b charge

...

Delta says that it “concluded that the carrying value of these aircraft was no longer recoverable when compared to their estimated remaining future cash flows”. As a result, the airline will take a non-cash impairment charge of up to $2.5 billion during the current third quarter, which ends next week.

“Delta may continue to consider further opportunities for early aircraft retirements in an effort to modernize and simplify its fleet,” the airline says in the filing.


So Delta has simplified the fleet by planning or actually removing the:
MD-88
MD-90
B717
763
772
77L

It is a good thing they didn't over-invest.

dstblj52 wrote:
Nicoeddf wrote:
raylee67 wrote:
I guess the 763 may have a higher value as a BCF then a continuing concern as a pax aircraft. The long haul fleet is going to standardize between A330 and A350 then.

The 764 will become a very small fleet of odd-ball type. However, we can probably expect that, when the situation has sufficiently improved, even if it takes it to 2024 or 2025, Delta will expand its fleet of A339 and A350 to replace the 764. Eventually more of those will be ordered down the road to replace the older A332 and A333 too.

And it still leaves the question of what will replace the large 757 fleet. Boeing better comes up with something good in the next two years. Otherwise, a mix order of A321NEO and NEO-XLR will be likely.


A mix order for a 321neo variant is already highly likely. Boeing coming up with something better in the next two years would mean EIS end of the decade.

The thing that killed a Delta max deal last time was CFM wasn't willing to give techops an engine shop for the LEAP series so we might get see Delta ordering the max if that changes, especially given deltas love affair with absolute optimization of capacity route by route hour by hour.

I believe Pratt won the A321NEO order on the over-haul business.
Due to the need for a MAX sale, I'm betting CFM would offer the LEAP service, including the ability to service the A32xNEO family LEAP-1A as well as the -1B.

Delta is very unlikely to be a launch customer for something new and Boeing isn't likely to have the funds to invest in a new project anyway. I could see a -9 or -10 MAX order for DL. Not in 2020, but once DL sees the floor of this brutal market.

For the 767 replacement, DL would have liked the NMA... I doubt that would happen, but I cannot 100% say it won't.


MIflyer12 wrote:
HVNandrew wrote:
The 717 fills a niche role in the DL network; there are going to be a lot of small and mid-sized markets in the southeast, northeast and midwest that will lose mainline service. They may have similar capacity, but the A220 isn't meant for the same missions.


That's a wholly artificial constraint you're imposing. A220s don't do the short routes today because DL has 717s for that; A220s do the long, thin routes because 717s lack the range.

To expand (I'm not rebutting):
The A220 is an excellent short haul aircraft . The difference is it saves so much more in fuel on long flights and could open new long thin, it made sense.
I can only hope DL is planning to top off their A220 order. They have many options, so replacement by 2025 is plausible. This will be interesting to follow.

Lightsaber
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Cubsrule
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Re: Delta announced to phase out 717, 763 & CRJ200.

Sat Sep 26, 2020 4:49 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
This, I thought was interesting


If we go with the thesis that OO is keeping some CRJs and that the OO-operated flying will remain, we can in some sense remove most upper midwest stations (which, with a couple of exceptions, are OO-operated EAS) and the stations served ex-SLC from that list. That leaves some DTW-Pennsylvania/New York flying, LSE and CWA, and an awful lot of cities in the southeast. I think the cities that are over about 800 flights in the table are probably safe; many of them are relatively larger, fairly isolated, or both and can probably support CR7s/CR9s at lower frequency. I think the New York and Pennsylvania stations likely are goners; they have little to no strategic value to DL. For me the hardest question is the likes of MLU and ABY, where DL has a tremendous amount of history and brand loyalty but perhaps not the right airplane any longer.
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Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos