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acavpics
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Question about flight AA11 on 9/11.

Tue Sep 29, 2020 3:19 am

Recently, I watched the documentary "Zero Hour: Last Hour of Flight 11", which elaborately discusses all that is known about the hijacking and crash of American Airlines flight 11 on September 11, 2001. Towards the end, it showed flight attendants stating that "passengers in coach think that this is just is a medical emergency."
For a while now, I have been wondering how these pax were led to believe that for the entire half hour that the plane was hijacked. From what I've seen, I'd assume that those in first and business class would have immediately fled their cabin after the knife attacks and spraying of Mace up front (And of course, the terrorists probably ordered everyone out of there at once).

According to the documentary, the FA's likely asked the first/business pax to go along with the "medical emergency" story in order to prevent the spread of panic through coach class. But how would they have had the time to ask everyone to do this if they were being forced out of their cabins so quickly?

Not to mention that the plane was descending rapidly and flying erratically once it got hijacked.

Also, two flight attendants (Amy Sweeney and Betty Ong) placed calls to the ground from GTE airphones at the rear of the plane. Wouldn't the coach class passengers have heard them reporting that a hijacking was taking place and that this was no routine emergency?
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Question about flight AA11 on 9/11.

Tue Sep 29, 2020 4:12 am

It is really is astonishing that the passengers just sat back and let them do as they wished. Even before 9/11, why did passengers comply with hijackers? Take them to the floor and bash them in the head with the fire extinguisher.
 
USAirALB
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Re: Question about flight AA11 on 9/11.

Tue Sep 29, 2020 4:33 am

I think it's probably likely that they really weren't too informed/aware about what was going on.

Recall that pre 9/11, US carriers still had standard black-out curtains (still common outside the US) dividing each class of service. They wouldn't have been able to see what was going on. Each of the hijackings took place (IIRC) in the middle of the Breakfast service, so coach passengers were probably preoccupied with that.

I think its a standard operating procedure for FAs to try to keep an air of calm in the cabin in such situations. I recall reading a story years back about a US flight flying from CDG to CLT. A passenger passed a suspicious note to an FA, and the flight was diverted to Bangor and was escorted by fighter jets. The FAs instructed the pax not to open the window shades because it would interfere with the operation of the IFE system (something like that) and the captain said over the PA they were diverting for fuel.
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KFLLCFII
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Re: Question about flight AA11 on 9/11.

Tue Sep 29, 2020 4:57 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
It is really is astonishing that the passengers just sat back and let them do as they wished. Even before 9/11, why did passengers comply with hijackers? Take them to the floor and bash them in the head with the fire extinguisher.

Because 9/11 just wasn't conceivable through the early hours of 9/11.

Even sporadic newspaper articles in the years/months preceding the event mentioning "Osama Bin Laden" and possible terrorist plans to hijack airliners and use them as weapons were largely brushed off as Hollywood fantasy.

Pre-9/11, a hijacking at best meant an unscheduled trip to Cuba or Africa with the pilots still operating the aircraft. Unlike now, a hijacking wasn't necessarily seen as something life-threatening to the crew, passengers, and those on the ground...as long as everyone complied. That was generally the policy and public understanding...compliance means the least amount of people get hurt.

Flight 11 was, for all intents and purposes, the first time compliance onboard the airliner meant certain death for everyone onboard. They didn't know that.

By Flight 93 and through the use of phone technology, they did.
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tommy1808
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Re: Question about flight AA11 on 9/11.

Tue Sep 29, 2020 5:17 am

KFLLCFII wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
It is really is astonishing that the passengers just sat back and let them do as they wished. Even before 9/11, why did passengers comply with hijackers? Take them to the floor and bash them in the head with the fire extinguisher.

Because 9/11 just wasn't conceivable through the early hours of 9/11..


:checkmark:
Compliance with hijackers had proven to be the best cause of action for decades, because it was the best cause of action ..... more often than not with everyone surviving, and rarely, if ever, with total loss of life....

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
FGITD
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Re: Question about flight AA11 on 9/11.

Tue Sep 29, 2020 5:33 am

KFLLCFII wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
It is really is astonishing that the passengers just sat back and let them do as they wished. Even before 9/11, why did passengers comply with hijackers? Take them to the floor and bash them in the head with the fire extinguisher.


Flight 11 was, for all intents and purposes, the first time compliance onboard the airliner meant certain death for everyone onboard. They didn't know that.

By Flight 93 and through the use of phone technology, they did.


I believe this cannot be overstated. I remember people used to joke about getting a free Caribbean stopover. Sit down, shut up, and stay alive. Live hostages were useful hostages. On 9/11 the passengers really didn't matter.

Over the years it seems the timeline of 9/11 has compressed in the minds of many. UA93 happened as it did because it was so much later in the morning. 93 wasn't hijacked until almost 30 minutes after the first WTC hit, and the south tower had already collapsed a few minutes before the pax fought back.

These days it's absolutely unthinkable that passengers would sit back and let it happen. But that wasn't so 20 years ago
 
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DarkSnowyNight
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Re: Question about flight AA11 on 9/11.

Tue Sep 29, 2020 6:15 am

tommy1808 wrote:
KFLLCFII wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
It is really is astonishing that the passengers just sat back and let them do as they wished. Even before 9/11, why did passengers comply with hijackers? Take them to the floor and bash them in the head with the fire extinguisher.

Because 9/11 just wasn't conceivable through the early hours of 9/11..


:checkmark:
Compliance with hijackers had proven to be the best cause of action for decades, because it was the best cause of action ..... more often than not with everyone surviving, and rarely, if ever, with total loss of life....

best regards
Thomas



Indeed. Hijack a plane to Cuba is not just some movie trope. It happened enough that it is listed as a Fad or Craze of the 1960s, although it would go on deep into the 1990s.



FGITD wrote:
KFLLCFII wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
It is really is astonishing that the passengers just sat back and let them do as they wished. Even before 9/11, why did passengers comply with hijackers? Take them to the floor and bash them in the head with the fire extinguisher.


Flight 11 was, for all intents and purposes, the first time compliance onboard the airliner meant certain death for everyone onboard. They didn't know that.

By Flight 93 and through the use of phone technology, they did.


I believe this cannot be overstated. I remember people used to joke about getting a free Caribbean stopover. Sit down, shut up, and stay alive. Live hostages were useful hostages. On 9/11 the passengers really didn't matter.



An interesting footnote is the fact that Cuba only just made Hijacking illegal in 1970.
After several dozen events had already occured.
I suspect frosty relations with the US and the associated potential for extradition treaties was the reason for the hold up, as it were, as both nations were growing frustrated with the increasingly commonplace nature of the events.


There are many reasons for this, but none involved flying planes into buildings and there would be no reason for the PAX to think such a thing was underway.
"Nous ne sommes pas infectés. Il n'y a pas d'infection ici..."
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: Question about flight AA11 on 9/11.

Tue Sep 29, 2020 7:37 am

It's honestly surprising that people don't think that a plane could be used on a suicide mission, when even as early as the 1970s, there were kooks already planning to do just that - like Samuel Byck for example. What an innocent time it was back then.
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TTailedTiger
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Re: Question about flight AA11 on 9/11.

Tue Sep 29, 2020 7:59 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
It's honestly surprising that people don't think that a plane could be used on a suicide mission, when even as early as the 1970s, there were kooks already planning to do just that - like Samuel Byck for example. What an innocent time it was back then.


You would think they would have definitely figured this out after PSA 1771. I really don't understand why nothing changed after that criminal act. I refuse to call it an accident/crash since there was nothing accidental about it.
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: Question about flight AA11 on 9/11.

Tue Sep 29, 2020 8:08 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:
It's honestly surprising that people don't think that a plane could be used on a suicide mission, when even as early as the 1970s, there were kooks already planning to do just that - like Samuel Byck for example. What an innocent time it was back then.


You would think they would have definitely figured this out after PSA 1771. I really don't understand why nothing changed after that criminal act. I refuse to call it an accident/crash since there was nothing accidental about it.


Also, don't forget Auburn Calloway & FedEx 705.
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tommy1808
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Re: Question about flight AA11 on 9/11.

Tue Sep 29, 2020 8:21 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:
It's honestly surprising that people don't think that a plane could be used on a suicide mission, when even as early as the 1970s, there were kooks already planning to do just that - like Samuel Byck for example. What an innocent time it was back then.


You would think they would have definitely figured this out after PSA 1771. .


they all knew that, they also knew that statistically weaponizing hijacked aircraft was irrelevant. There have been quite a few hijackings after all: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_a ... hijackings

I really don't understand why nothing changed after that criminal act. I refuse to call it an accident/crash since there was nothing accidental about it


well, when they finally did change stuff after such a crime they invented armored cockpit doors, that by now have proven them-self to be quite the safety risk on aircraft and arguably killed far more people than they saved. And aside of adding cost there isn´t much indication that the TSA improved flight safety either.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Question about flight AA11 on 9/11.

Tue Sep 29, 2020 9:00 am

tommy1808 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:
It's honestly surprising that people don't think that a plane could be used on a suicide mission, when even as early as the 1970s, there were kooks already planning to do just that - like Samuel Byck for example. What an innocent time it was back then.


You would think they would have definitely figured this out after PSA 1771. .


they all knew that, they also knew that statistically weaponizing hijacked aircraft was irrelevant. There have been quite a few hijackings after all: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_a ... hijackings

I really don't understand why nothing changed after that criminal act. I refuse to call it an accident/crash since there was nothing accidental about it


well, when they finally did change stuff after such a crime they invented armored cockpit doors, that by now have proven them-self to be quite the safety risk on aircraft and arguably killed far more people than they saved. And aside of adding cost there isn´t much indication that the TSA improved flight safety either.

best regards
Thomas


Please provide a source for your claim that armored flight deck doors have "killed far more people than they saved".
 
GloryDaysSR
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Re: Question about flight AA11 on 9/11.

Tue Sep 29, 2020 9:52 am

[*]I was a flight attendant back then. Our procedure for hijacking involved not challenging the hijackers and giving in to their demands. I remember one goal was for the cabin crew to change their uniform, if possible, and blend in with the passengers. Sounds strange now, but pre-9/11, that’s what we were taught. We were trained to be as diplomatic, calm and matter-of-fact as possible. That all changed after 9/11. It is hard for younger people to understand, but in situations where there had been hijackings, the calmer the crew was, the more successful they were in thwarting mass chaos & destruction. An example of this is TWA 847 in 1985. Up until 9/11 the main goal of hijacking was to bring attention to their cause.
 
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Re: Question about flight AA11 on 9/11.

Tue Sep 29, 2020 10:15 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

You would think they would have definitely figured this out after PSA 1771. .


they all knew that, they also knew that statistically weaponizing hijacked aircraft was irrelevant. There have been quite a few hijackings after all: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_a ... hijackings

I really don't understand why nothing changed after that criminal act. I refuse to call it an accident/crash since there was nothing accidental about it


well, when they finally did change stuff after such a crime they invented armored cockpit doors, that by now have proven them-self to be quite the safety risk on aircraft and arguably killed far more people than they saved. And aside of adding cost there isn´t much indication that the TSA improved flight safety either.

best regards
Thomas


Please provide a source for your claim that armored flight deck doors have "killed far more people than they saved".



Germanwings 9525 - 150 fatalities

There's been the odd news case of someone trying to storm the flight deck door, with pretty much all being restrained by the FA's and other pax. As stated by another poster above, people fight back
 
N649DL
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Re: Question about flight AA11 on 9/11.

Tue Sep 29, 2020 10:23 am

If you watch the movie "United 93" (excellent film, one of my favorites) you'll witness that the FAA was so surprised by a possible hijack which literally hadn't happened on American soil since the 1980s. Initial moves by AA 11 was just that. The Flight Attendants couldn't fathom that the WTC was the target and quietly moved back all F and J passengers to Y and called it a medical emergency to calm the passengers. Many believed that the hijacked aircraft out of BOS were heading to JFK or EWR based on their headings. In fact, UA 93 at one point on flight aware called it for heading to DCA after it was hijacked. People really couldn't believe that this was real life (I couldn't either being 14 in 9th grade.)

UA Flight 175 was the more erratic flight where people were screaming and vomiting because the descent was so rapid. To the pax on AA Flight 11, a Medical Emergency was likely believable for most of the flight while the Flight Attendants were trying to figure things out, IMHO.

On YouTube, look up "The Path to 9/11" if you want to research this further. These awful terrorists were flagged for screening at Logan and were allowed to pass for ungodly reasons as well.
Last edited by N649DL on Tue Sep 29, 2020 10:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: Question about flight AA11 on 9/11.

Tue Sep 29, 2020 10:27 am

You are looking at this from the scope of 2020. It is indeed a more awful world now with regular tragic events that inform us and desensitize us. 9:11 was the granddaddy of those events.

Most adults on the plane that day grew up in the 70s when hijackers were common: you complied, got a free trip to a country you never thought you would land in, and you lived. No one could fathom passenger planes being turned into missiles.

Furthermore, when you were away from a TV or a wall phone, you were disconnected from real time events. The seatback phone and the cockpit communications were the only connection to the the outside world.

By all accounts, United 93 didnt make its target because pax were informed via the seatback phone and some early on cell phones about the situation...and took action.

The next attack will come from an enemy you have heard relatively little about, using a weapon you never dreamed of, at a random time that means nothing to you...but means a lot to them.

That is what makes a terrorist successful.
 
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ChrisNH38
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Re: Question about flight AA11 on 9/11.

Tue Sep 29, 2020 11:29 am

I’ll never forget pulling into Boston’s North Station on the commuter rail and seeing AA11 pass over the Bunker Hill monument and then over me as I walked along the train platform.
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Cointrin330
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Re: Question about flight AA11 on 9/11.

Tue Sep 29, 2020 12:02 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
It is really is astonishing that the passengers just sat back and let them do as they wished. Even before 9/11, why did passengers comply with hijackers? Take them to the floor and bash them in the head with the fire extinguisher.


What an arrogant comment. Were you aboard AA Flight 11? Do you know what actually went on? But beyond that, until 9/11, deliberately crashing hijacked airplanes and killing passengers within the first few minutes of an attempted hijacking) were few and far between.
 
Ionosphere
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Re: Question about flight AA11 on 9/11.

Tue Sep 29, 2020 1:10 pm

The curtains played a big part and not alerting the whole plane to the hijacking. The people in Business and First certainly knew that it was a hijacking. A passenger in Business Class, the Purser, and First Galley FA were stabbed.

AA11 had 9 FAs dealing with the 76 non hijacker passengers. I think the large cabin crew were able to keep things under control. That morning no one could've realized that their 767 was about to become a missile.
 
incitatus
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Re: Question about flight AA11 on 9/11.

Tue Sep 29, 2020 1:45 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
It is really is astonishing that the passengers just sat back and let them do as they wished. Even before 9/11, why did passengers comply with hijackers? Take them to the floor and bash them in the head with the fire extinguisher.


It is not astonishing. Pretty much all hijacks before 9-11 that broke into the news had hijackers forcing the pilots to land - and only then things got dicey. While there was intelligence pointing to such an attack, for the common folk 9-11 was a huge surprise. There was no way for the passengers to know what kind of plan hijackers had.

In the old days the idea was to be nice to hijackers until the plane landed, then try to catch them on the ground when they were distracted.
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26point2
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Re: Question about flight AA11 on 9/11.

Tue Sep 29, 2020 1:59 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:
It's honestly surprising that people don't think that a plane could be used on a suicide mission, when even as early as the 1970s, there were kooks already planning to do just that - like Samuel Byck for example. What an innocent time it was back then.


You would think they would have definitely figured this out after PSA 1771. I really don't understand why nothing changed after that criminal act. I refuse to call it an accident/crash since there was nothing accidental about it.


It did change. PSA 1771 was the result of an employee getting a weapon past security as in those days flight crew bypassed the metal detector screening. PSA 1771 changed that.
 
jetblueguy22
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Re: Question about flight AA11 on 9/11.

Tue Sep 29, 2020 2:12 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
It is really is astonishing that the passengers just sat back and let them do as they wished. Even before 9/11, why did passengers comply with hijackers? Take them to the floor and bash them in the head with the fire extinguisher.

That’s really easy to say while typing at your keyboard.
Look at sweatpants guy. This is a 90 million dollar aircraft, not a Tallahassee strip club
 
catiii
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Re: Question about flight AA11 on 9/11.

Tue Sep 29, 2020 2:38 pm

jetblueguy22 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
It is really is astonishing that the passengers just sat back and let them do as they wished. Even before 9/11, why did passengers comply with hijackers? Take them to the floor and bash them in the head with the fire extinguisher.

That’s really easy to say while typing at your keyboard.


And with 19 years of hindsight.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Question about flight AA11 on 9/11.

Tue Sep 29, 2020 2:50 pm

You might read the link, if you think passengers were always passive. WN pax killed a passenger who tried to storm the cockpit, on Aug 11, 2000. EA had a hijacker kill the FO and seriously injured the captain. I’ve met Capt
Wilbur, he was a local hero. Hartley Training Center was named after the FO. Resistance saved Wilbur and the passengers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southwest ... light_1763

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_A ... light_1320
 
BC77008
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Re: Question about flight AA11 on 9/11.

Tue Sep 29, 2020 3:06 pm

26point2 wrote:

It did change. PSA 1771 was the result of an employee getting a weapon past security as in those days flight crew bypassed the metal detector screening. PSA 1771 changed that.


Flight crew (pilots, flight attendants) routinely bypass security screening even today through a program called Known Crew Member.
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Max Q
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Re: Question about flight AA11 on 9/11.

Tue Sep 29, 2020 3:15 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
It is really is astonishing that the passengers just sat back and let them do as they wished. Even before 9/11, why did passengers comply with hijackers? Take them to the floor and bash them in the head with the fire extinguisher.




Pretty disrespectful post, reminds me of the ‘actor’ Mark Walhburg who said something similar after 9-11.


If he’d been onboard he would have ‘taken them all out’


Unbelievable, to this day I won’t watch anything with that idiot in it
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


GGg
 
acavpics
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Re: Question about flight AA11 on 9/11.

Tue Sep 29, 2020 3:58 pm

USAirALB wrote:
I think it's probably likely that they really weren't too informed/aware about what was going on.



Based on all of the relevant (and irrelevant) answers on here, the back-out curtains idea probably makes most sense.

I was actually just looking at the seating chart of an AA 762, and it seems that the last two rows (39 and 40) at the very back are situated right in between the lavatories. According to most sources, FA Amy Sweeney made her call form the last row. Were there black out curtains covering those last two rows? I have never been on any 767 so I wouldn't have seen for myself.
I'm just wondering how the coach class passengers did not hear the flight attendants talking about the hijacking, stabbings etc.


USAirALB wrote:
Recall that pre 9/11, US carriers still had standard black-out curtains (still common outside the US) dividing each class of service. They wouldn't have been able to see what was going on. Each of the hijackings took place (IIRC) in the middle of the Breakfast service, so coach passengers were probably preoccupied with that.



As someone who was born in '98 and doesn't remember flying before 9/11, a full on "Breakfast service" in domestic coach class seems like such a fantasy to me. :bouncy:
 
TripleA
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Re: Question about flight AA11 on 9/11.

Tue Sep 29, 2020 4:21 pm

acavpics wrote:
USAirALB wrote:
I think it's probably likely that they really weren't too informed/aware about what was going on.



Based on all of the relevant (and irrelevant) answers on here, the back-out curtains idea probably makes most sense.

I was actually just looking at the seating chart of an AA 762, and it seems that the last two rows (39 and 40) at the very back are situated right in between the lavatories. According to most sources, FA Amy Sweeney made her call form the last row. Were there black out curtains covering those last two rows? I have never been on any 767 so I wouldn't have seen for myself.
I'm just wondering how the coach class passengers did not hear the flight attendants talking about the hijacking, stabbings etc.



Well the flight wasn’t that full so there probably weren’t too many pax sitting near them. And with the engine noise and everything even if they were just a few rows ahead it still would’ve been hard to hear their conversation.

As for the pax not knowing, honestly I imagine most of them were suspicious of the whole medical emergency story. They probably knew there was something weird going on, but of course nobody could’ve guessed what was about to happen. Even as the plane was descending over New York towards the WTC the pax probably thought they were going land in that area. Now obviously the lack of the flaps being retracted would’ve been a major red flag but again, they had absolutely no idea of what was about to happen.
 
aviationjunky
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Re: Question about flight AA11 on 9/11.

Tue Sep 29, 2020 4:40 pm

Kind of off topic, but I always wonder what would've happened if UA93 had been taken control of the passengers that broke thru the cockpit door there in the final moments.
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Re: Question about flight AA11 on 9/11.

Tue Sep 29, 2020 4:56 pm

N649DL wrote:
In fact, UA 93 at one point on flight aware called it for heading to DCA after it was hijacked.


FlightAware didn't exist as a company until 2005
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acavpics
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Re: Question about flight AA11 on 9/11.

Tue Sep 29, 2020 5:49 pm

aviationjunky wrote:
Kind of off topic, but I always wonder what would've happened if UA93 had been taken control of the passengers that broke thru the cockpit door there in the final moments.


I think there were a couple of passengers on board UA93 that had some flying experience. And also, if you watch "The Flight that Fought Back", the husband of one of the FA's said that he could even help someone program the plane to land itself via the phone.

But sadly, none of that came into play. :frown:
 
TripleA
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Re: Question about flight AA11 on 9/11.

Tue Sep 29, 2020 6:12 pm

As for the pax not knowing, honestly I imagine most of them were suspicious of the whole medical emergency story. They probably knew there was something weird going on, but of course nobody could’ve guessed what was about to happen. Even as the plane was descending over New York towards the WTC the pax probably thought they were going land in that area. Now obviously the lack of the flaps being retracted would’ve been a major red flag but again, they had absolutely no idea of what was about to happen.


Correction...I meant to say flaps extended*
 
Miamiairport
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Re: Question about flight AA11 on 9/11.

Tue Sep 29, 2020 6:24 pm

From I remember paxs in coach didn't realize what was going on for awhile. Back then as mentioned there were heavy curtains and planes tend to be a very loud environment that could have blocked out noise.
 
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klm617
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Re: Question about flight AA11 on 9/11.

Tue Sep 29, 2020 6:41 pm

What still amazes me is that these people with some what limited skill could fly these planes into very small targets with pinpoint accuracy. How was a person with low flying skills able to maintain the low height that it did over the ground to fly into the side of the pentagon. Also you're flying a jetliner at 500 miles an hour and your able to hit a target as the WTC without missing it not once but twice.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Question about flight AA11 on 9/11.

Tue Sep 29, 2020 6:46 pm

Not that hard really.
 
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Re: Question about flight AA11 on 9/11.

Tue Sep 29, 2020 6:55 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
It is really is astonishing that the passengers just sat back and let them do as they wished. Even before 9/11, why did passengers comply with hijackers? Take them to the floor and bash them in the head with the fire extinguisher.


Ah, but what some people say they would do in any type of emergency, and what they actually do, are two very different things entirely. All very well for a person to act the 'big man' and be full of bravado thinking one is John Wayne in the audience of family and friends.....very different scenario when one is faced with actually having to do it. But yes, an amateur taking on men with guns, grenades etc in the confines of an aircraft is one very quick way to get people killed. But hey, it doesn't take much to pretend lol
 
Lootess
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Re: Question about flight AA11 on 9/11.

Tue Sep 29, 2020 6:55 pm

The curtains then were an issue. Now it's all see-thru curtains, openings in bulkheads to first/business. Sure we don't have the GTE airphones anymore but with free messaging over wifi now, and locked cockpits. It's a better world now.

Granted it won't stop a Germanwings major depression incident, although a Malaysia 370 shouldn't happen again.
 
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DarkSnowyNight
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Re: Question about flight AA11 on 9/11.

Tue Sep 29, 2020 7:11 pm

TripleA wrote:
As for the pax not knowing, honestly I imagine most of them were suspicious of the whole medical emergency story. They probably knew there was something weird going on, but of course nobody could’ve guessed what was about to happen. Even as the plane was descending over New York towards the WTC the pax probably thought they were going land in that area. Now obviously the lack of the flaps being retracted would’ve been a major red flag but again, they had absolutely no idea of what was about to happen.


Correction...I meant to say flaps extended*



It was not quite like that. They were doing close to 515 Indicated. At that speed, that low to the ground, it would not have been a smooth ride on into their assigned objectives. There would have been severe buffeting and likely oscillations getting close to flutter. Picture driving over a pot-holed dirt road in a school bus at about 85mph, and you likely would not be far off.


klm617 wrote:
What still amazes me is that these people with some what limited skill could fly these planes into very small targets with pinpoint accuracy. How was a person with low flying skills able to maintain the low height that it did over the ground to fly into the side of the pentagon. Also you're flying a jetliner at 500 miles an hour and your able to hit a target as the WTC without missing it not once but twice.


A lot of that 'assessment' was hubris. Part of what a lot of people had a tough time about WRT 9/11 was how easily we got our nose bloodied. So of course we do not like to admit that there was skill involved. And there was. A damned lot.

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Not that hard really.


Yep.

Lootess wrote:
The curtains then were an issue. Now it's all see-thru curtains, openings in bulkheads to first/business. Sure we don't have the GTE airphones anymore but with free messaging over wifi now, and locked cockpits. It's a better world now.

Granted it won't stop a Germanwings major depression incident, although a Malaysia 370 shouldn't happen again.


Depends on who you are. Those things will stop another 9/11 fairly reliably.

But they would also allow, again fairly reliably, a more effective drone attack over a larger area. I am sure there are other bad things that could happen now that could not have then.
"Nous ne sommes pas infectés. Il n'y a pas d'infection ici..."
 
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klm617
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Re: Question about flight AA11 on 9/11.

Tue Sep 29, 2020 7:22 pm

DarkSnowyNight wrote:
TripleA wrote:
As for the pax not knowing, honestly I imagine most of them were suspicious of the whole medical emergency story. They probably knew there was something weird going on, but of course nobody could’ve guessed what was about to happen. Even as the plane was descending over New York towards the WTC the pax probably thought they were going land in that area. Now obviously the lack of the flaps being retracted would’ve been a major red flag but again, they had absolutely no idea of what was about to happen.


Correction...I meant to say flaps extended*



It was not quite like that. They were doing close to 515 Indicated. At that speed, that low to the ground, it would not have been a smooth ride on into their assigned objectives. There would have been severe buffeting and likely oscillations getting close to flutter. Picture driving over a pot-holed dirt road in a school bus at about 85mph, and you likely would not be far off.


klm617 wrote:
What still amazes me is that these people with some what limited skill could fly these planes into very small targets with pinpoint accuracy. How was a person with low flying skills able to maintain the low height that it did over the ground to fly into the side of the pentagon. Also you're flying a jetliner at 500 miles an hour and your able to hit a target as the WTC without missing it not once but twice.


A lot of that 'assessment' was hubris. Part of what a lot of people had a tough time about WRT 9/11 was how easily we got our nose bloodied. So of course we do not like to admit that there was skill involved. And there was. A damned lot.

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Not that hard really.


Yep.

Lootess wrote:
The curtains then were an issue. Now it's all see-thru curtains, openings in bulkheads to first/business. Sure we don't have the GTE airphones anymore but with free messaging over wifi now, and locked cockpits. It's a better world now.

Granted it won't stop a Germanwings major depression incident, although a Malaysia 370 shouldn't happen again.


Depends on who you are. Those things will stop another 9/11 fairly reliably.

But they would also allow, again fairly reliably, a more effective drone attack over a larger area. I am sure there are other bad things that could happen now that could not have then.



You miss understood my point a lot of skill was needed to do this but my question is where was this skill acquired and can someone gain that skill through purely only having time on a flightsim on those types of aircraft.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
IAmGaroott
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Re: Question about flight AA11 on 9/11.

Tue Sep 29, 2020 7:22 pm

acavpics wrote:
USAirALB wrote:
I think it's probably likely that they really weren't too informed/aware about what was going on.



Based on all of the relevant (and irrelevant) answers on here, the back-out curtains idea probably makes most sense.

I was actually just looking at the seating chart of an AA 762, and it seems that the last two rows (39 and 40) at the very back are situated right in between the lavatories. According to most sources, FA Amy Sweeney made her call form the last row. Were there black out curtains covering those last two rows? I have never been on any 767 so I wouldn't have seen for myself.
I'm just wondering how the coach class passengers did not hear the flight attendants talking about the hijacking, stabbings etc.


USAirALB wrote:
Recall that pre 9/11, US carriers still had standard black-out curtains (still common outside the US) dividing each class of service. They wouldn't have been able to see what was going on. Each of the hijackings took place (IIRC) in the middle of the Breakfast service, so coach passengers were probably preoccupied with that.



As someone who was born in '98 and doesn't remember flying before 9/11, a full on "Breakfast service" in domestic coach class seems like such a fantasy to me. :bouncy:


Even with blackout curtains, the 762 is not a large ac. I can distinctly remember flying in Envoy on a US Airways 762 and still hearing crying children in the back. The people in coach on AA11 had to have known something was up, but I suppose the medical emergency sufficed.

I was just old enough to have memories of flying pre 9/11. It wasn’t glamorous as what I’ve heard pre-Deregulation flights were like, but I remember everyone got complimentary snack boxes with sandwiches on domestic flights. On US, they were dark blue with white pinstripes.
 
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klm617
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Re: Question about flight AA11 on 9/11.

Tue Sep 29, 2020 7:24 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Not that hard really.


Not questioning your reply but what makes it so easy to be able to pull this off with very limited training flying a commercial jetliner ?
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
USAirALB
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Re: Question about flight AA11 on 9/11.

Tue Sep 29, 2020 8:16 pm

IAmGaroott wrote:
acavpics wrote:
USAirALB wrote:
I think it's probably likely that they really weren't too informed/aware about what was going on.



Based on all of the relevant (and irrelevant) answers on here, the back-out curtains idea probably makes most sense.

I was actually just looking at the seating chart of an AA 762, and it seems that the last two rows (39 and 40) at the very back are situated right in between the lavatories. According to most sources, FA Amy Sweeney made her call form the last row. Were there black out curtains covering those last two rows? I have never been on any 767 so I wouldn't have seen for myself.
I'm just wondering how the coach class passengers did not hear the flight attendants talking about the hijacking, stabbings etc.


USAirALB wrote:
Recall that pre 9/11, US carriers still had standard black-out curtains (still common outside the US) dividing each class of service. They wouldn't have been able to see what was going on. Each of the hijackings took place (IIRC) in the middle of the Breakfast service, so coach passengers were probably preoccupied with that.



As someone who was born in '98 and doesn't remember flying before 9/11, a full on "Breakfast service" in domestic coach class seems like such a fantasy to me. :bouncy:


Even with blackout curtains, the 762 is not a large ac. I can distinctly remember flying in Envoy on a US Airways 762 and still hearing crying children in the back. The people in coach on AA11 had to have known something was up, but I suppose the medical emergency sufficed.

I was just old enough to have memories of flying pre 9/11. It wasn’t glamorous as what I’ve heard pre-Deregulation flights were like, but I remember everyone got complimentary snack boxes with sandwiches on domestic flights. On US, they were dark blue with white pinstripes.

Except AA11 was a 3-cabin aircraft and F/J took up a larger portion of the aircraft than say J on a US 762.

Hot Meals were definitely still a thing pre 9/11 (and actually post 9/11 as well, they really went away around 2004/2005). Pre-9/11 essentially all US/UA/AA flights had a full tray service in Economy during meal time hours. I remember DL and CO weren’t as generous and only had a full meal with hot casserole dish on transcontinental flights.

UA also used to do a full hot meal service and then offer a snack box with packaged snacks prior to arrival as well on transcons. US used to do these ice cream sandwich things.
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n92r03
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Re: Question about flight AA11 on 9/11.

Tue Sep 29, 2020 8:37 pm

Vicenza wrote:
Ah, but what some people say they would do in any type of emergency, and what they actually do, are two very different things entirely. All very well for a person to act the 'big man' and be full of bravado thinking one is John Wayne in the audience of family and friends.....very different scenario when one is faced with actually having to do it. But yes, an amateur taking on men with guns, grenades etc in the confines of an aircraft is one very quick way to get people killed. But hey, it doesn't take much to pretend lol


People like to think they would "rise to the occasion" however reality is they 'may' rise to the level of their training and only if they are lucky, most won't do that and even more do not have any useful training. Props to all on UA 93 that actually did everything they could.
 
acavpics
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Re: Question about flight AA11 on 9/11.

Tue Sep 29, 2020 9:02 pm

USAirALB wrote:
Hot Meals were definitely still a thing pre 9/11 (and actually post 9/11 as well, they really went away around 2004/2005). Pre-9/11 essentially all US/UA/AA flights had a full tray service in Economy during meal time hours. I remember DL and CO weren’t as generous and only had a full meal with hot casserole dish on transcontinental flights.

UA also used to do a full hot meal service and then offer a snack box with packaged snacks prior to arrival as well on transcons. US used to do these ice cream sandwich things.


Were hot meals taken away solely due to financial reasons, as most carriers were making losses following 9/11? Or was there some sort of security fear regarding this?
 
acavpics
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Re: Question about flight AA11 on 9/11.

Tue Sep 29, 2020 9:05 pm

ChrisNH38 wrote:
I’ll never forget pulling into Boston’s North Station on the commuter rail and seeing AA11 pass over the Bunker Hill monument and then over me as I walked along the train platform.


Oh wow, you saw it over Bunker Hill? All this time I thought AA11 took off on 4R and then made a roundabout right turn before heading westward, placing it south of Boston after departure.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Question about flight AA11 on 9/11.

Tue Sep 29, 2020 9:22 pm

klm617 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Not that hard really.


Not questioning your reply but what makes it so easy to be able to pull this off with very limited training flying a commercial jetliner ?


They had some flight training, it was a clear day all over the East. Find NYC, easy, despite the speed, give yourself lots of turning room to get lined up, hold building steady in windshield. The pilots only had to manage line-up, no energy management, no configuration plan, just line-up and wait. The buildings weren’t moving.
 
USAirALB
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Re: Question about flight AA11 on 9/11.

Tue Sep 29, 2020 9:24 pm

acavpics wrote:
USAirALB wrote:
Hot Meals were definitely still a thing pre 9/11 (and actually post 9/11 as well, they really went away around 2004/2005). Pre-9/11 essentially all US/UA/AA flights had a full tray service in Economy during meal time hours. I remember DL and CO weren’t as generous and only had a full meal with hot casserole dish on transcontinental flights.

UA also used to do a full hot meal service and then offer a snack box with packaged snacks prior to arrival as well on transcons. US used to do these ice cream sandwich things.


Were hot meals taken away solely due to financial reasons, as most carriers were making losses following 9/11? Or was there some sort of security fear regarding this?

Financial.
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superjeff
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Re: Question about flight AA11 on 9/11.

Tue Sep 29, 2020 9:52 pm

acavpics wrote:
USAirALB wrote:
Hot Meals were definitely still a thing pre 9/11 (and actually post 9/11 as well, they really went away around 2004/2005). Pre-9/11 essentially all US/UA/AA flights had a full tray service in Economy during meal time hours. I remember DL and CO weren’t as generous and only had a full meal with hot casserole dish on transcontinental flights.

UA also used to do a full hot meal service and then offer a snack box with packaged snacks prior to arrival as well on transcons. US used to do these ice cream sandwich things.


Were hot meals taken away solely due to financial reasons, as most carriers were making losses following 9/11? Or was there some sort of security fear regarding this?



Yes. After 9-11, when flights re-started, they didn't serve meals at all for a while due to security issues (concerns about knives, unsecured access to airplanes by unvetted caterers, etc.). When they started serving meals again, many of the airlines discontinued hot meals as a money saving matter. I remember American gave advance notice that they were going to do that; not sure if the other guys did. Only Continental continued to offer meal service in Coach Class, and usually that was a snack box (a sandwich, either hot or cold depending on trip length).
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: Question about flight AA11 on 9/11.

Tue Sep 29, 2020 10:10 pm

Max Q wrote:
Pretty disrespectful post, reminds me of the ‘actor’ Mark Walhburg who said something similar after 9-11.


If he’d been onboard he would have ‘taken them all out’


Unbelievable, to this day I won’t watch anything with that idiot in it


Could be braggadocio, but could also have a hint of truth. Let's not forget Wahlberg was one of the celebrities who had booked a seat on AA11 on 9/11. At the very least he could have helped Daniel Lewin, the former IDF Sayeret Matkal officer fend off the hijackers.
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USAirALB
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Re: Question about flight AA11 on 9/11.

Tue Sep 29, 2020 10:45 pm

superjeff wrote:
acavpics wrote:
USAirALB wrote:
Hot Meals were definitely still a thing pre 9/11 (and actually post 9/11 as well, they really went away around 2004/2005). Pre-9/11 essentially all US/UA/AA flights had a full tray service in Economy during meal time hours. I remember DL and CO weren’t as generous and only had a full meal with hot casserole dish on transcontinental flights.

UA also used to do a full hot meal service and then offer a snack box with packaged snacks prior to arrival as well on transcons. US used to do these ice cream sandwich things.


Were hot meals taken away solely due to financial reasons, as most carriers were making losses following 9/11? Or was there some sort of security fear regarding this?



Yes. After 9-11, when flights re-started, they didn't serve meals at all for a while due to security issues (concerns about knives, unsecured access to airplanes by unvetted caterers, etc.). When they started serving meals again, many of the airlines discontinued hot meals as a money saving matter. I remember American gave advance notice that they were going to do that; not sure if the other guys did. Only Continental continued to offer meal service in Coach Class, and usually that was a snack box (a sandwich, either hot or cold depending on trip length).

US stopped meals together in 2003, as did DL IIRC. UA and AA continued to do sandwich boxes on 3-5 hour flights, and continued to serve hot meals on transcons. I think AA stopped hot meal service in 2004/2005, and UA stopped in 2006? I know P.S. flights initially had hot meal service in Y before going to BOB. Not sure about NW.

I think AS stopped in 2005/2006 as well.

My last free hot meal in Y domestically was on CO EWR-YVR in 2010. It consisted of a fresh fruit bowl, yogurt, a muffin, and a egg in a pita sandwich type thing.
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