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strfyr51
Posts: 5089
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:04 pm

Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Thu Oct 01, 2020 12:46 am

Cointrin330 wrote:
ORD Boy 2 wrote:
Do it...
And from LAX, SFO, DEN, IAH, IAD and ORD...


ORD unlikely. It would be a one way feeder route. JFK-IAD on UA existed mainly because UA had no NY gateway to Europe (pre merger). The JFK market to Europe is not what UA is going after there (it has EWR for that).

JFK to ORD,IAD,DEN,SFO.IAH,and LAX would help our Star Alliance partners far more than it would help UA. But? It would damn sure help UA as well because there are European paartners that could fly to NYC but maybe not much farther so it would extend their reach into the USA. And what might it cost UA to connect more passengers? Not a lot.It also might encourage them to connect with us at IAD as well.
 
nycflyer99
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Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Thu Oct 01, 2020 2:30 am

strfyr51 wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
ORD Boy 2 wrote:
Do it...
And from LAX, SFO, DEN, IAH, IAD and ORD...


ORD unlikely. It would be a one way feeder route. JFK-IAD on UA existed mainly because UA had no NY gateway to Europe (pre merger). The JFK market to Europe is not what UA is going after there (it has EWR for that).

JFK to ORD,IAD,DEN,SFO.IAH,and LAX would help our Star Alliance partners far more than it would help UA. But? It would damn sure help UA as well because there are European paartners that could fly to NYC but maybe not much farther so it would extend their reach into the USA. And what might it cost UA to connect more passengers? Not a lot.It also might encourage them to connect with us at IAD as well.

What European carriers can United feed at JFK that aren't already served at EWR, IAD, or ORD? (or from destinations that UA already serves)
 
VC10er
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Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Thu Oct 01, 2020 9:03 am

I’m out of the NYC corporate skyscraper world for 5 years now. Had it not been for COVID-19, I don’t know how much has changed in 5 years up to December 2019. I would fly 200+ miles annually for my enormous global company whom also had corporate contacts with many airlines and UA in the USA.

20+ years ago UA had a terrible reputation, as of last December UA had seriously turned that around and UA’s reputation was changing rapidly. Many business fliers from the 1990’s were gone, and UA had a damn good make over the past few years.
IF after COVID-19 finally abates in a year or two, and UA continues it’s improvements, then the single most important thing changes: people proactively want to fly United: Brand preference beats traffic any day!

We also had our black-car service contract so for everyone flying, (especially premium fliers) an extra half hour in a Lincoln or SUV was the hands down winner. But that may have been greatly reduced, it was expensive and environmentally uncool!

I know nothing about slots etc, but if UA had strong brand affinity, having just the right mix out of JFK could only be a good thing.

I could see UA flying a very high J A321XLR, 767, 787 serving most people East of 5th Ave. EWR is sill best for the financial sector as well as the super weath Northern NJ residents. (NJ is the most densely populated state in the USA) = plenty of passengers for every class of service.

As for Transcon; flying UA today on a 78J is a dream in a Polaris seat. In the near future they must do more than what they did when they spruced up FIRST on the 752! I’ll gladly fly the 73MJ, but I really hope they don’t disappoint on the rumored lie flats!

To me the great unknown is what (and when) a post COVID-19 world will actually arrive!
To Most the Sky is The Limit, For me, the Sky is Home.
 
Nicknuzzii
Posts: 1305
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Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Thu Oct 01, 2020 11:23 am

Yeah EWR-LHR must have been performing very badly if they intended to go to 7x daily and even added more than 50% more business seats on each flight to match the demand.
 
jfk777
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Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Thu Oct 01, 2020 11:45 am

United will probably fly to the west coast from JFK. Many Star Alliance airlines needing connections at JFK currently offer connections over other UA hubs at Dulles, ORD and Newark. Many Asian Star airlines flying to JFK connect their traffic to UA over San Francisco and LAX. SAS doesn't even fly to JFK they fly to Newark. Most European airlines flying to New York fly to both JFK and EWR. All these Star alliance connections at JFK are better served by existing arrangements at other UA hubs.
 
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STT757
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Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Thu Oct 01, 2020 1:09 pm

If there were no perimeter rule at LaGuardia United wouldn't care about Kennedy airport. I envision SFO and LAX from JFK to round out their East of the Hudson service in the market with ORD, DEN, IAH, IAD and the new Florida flights from LGA. If I were to go aggressive and add an International route I would add Tel Aviv. United has become the pseudo flag carrier with flights to EWR 2x, ORD, IAD, SFO.

Perhaps United would pull frequency back on EWR-SFO/LAX, going to all 78J, 777s on those routes and move 752s to JFK-LAX/SFO until the 737MAX 10s arrive.

I don't know if slots are a big issue right now at JFK, it's the gates. I think UA could go to T4, T-7 or what's the status of T2? The big redevelopment of Kennedy did not start yet, and there's no way to know for sure when it will. The Port Authority has been begging for a $3Billion dollar bailout from the Feds which hasn't materialized. It might come but not until there's a new administration. And if/when the new developments are Kennedy proceed United could easily find their way into the project as a tenant.

Keep in mind, that for 30+ years United (thru Continental) has been the largest carrier in the NYC market. They've paid more in fees and rent to the Port Authority than any other carrier. If United went to the Port Authority and asked to be accommodated at Kennedy with space to support 12-15 daily flights I think the agency would make it happen.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
Cointrin330
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Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Thu Oct 01, 2020 1:53 pm

nycflyer99 wrote:
strfyr51 wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:

ORD unlikely. It would be a one way feeder route. JFK-IAD on UA existed mainly because UA had no NY gateway to Europe (pre merger). The JFK market to Europe is not what UA is going after there (it has EWR for that).

JFK to ORD,IAD,DEN,SFO.IAH,and LAX would help our Star Alliance partners far more than it would help UA. But? It would damn sure help UA as well because there are European paartners that could fly to NYC but maybe not much farther so it would extend their reach into the USA. And what might it cost UA to connect more passengers? Not a lot.It also might encourage them to connect with us at IAD as well.

What European carriers can United feed at JFK that aren't already served at EWR, IAD, or ORD? (or from destinations that UA already serves)


That was my point. UA likely has no interest, or need to feed *A partners at JFK when it can do that already at EWR, IAD, or ORD. A UA return to JFK is really about P2P, some TPAC connections through LAX/SFO and not much else.
 
jplatts
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Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Thu Oct 01, 2020 7:57 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
UA is supporting an NYC hub: AA surely is not. DL is split across LGA/JFK. Be careful about competing with your own hub. Neither UA nor AA fly to MDW. AA doesn't fly to DAL. UA doesn't fly to OAK... Not at all. See a pattern?


AA originally had plans to serve DAL in addition to DFW after the repeal of the Wright Amendment, but the DOJ required AA to divest its 2 gates at DAL until April 26, 2024 in order to allow AA to merge with US.

AA does serve (a) BUR, LGB, ONT, SNA in addition to LAX in Greater Los Angeles, even with the LAX hub, (b) FLL and PBI in Greater Miami in addition to MIA, even with the MIA hub, (c) IAD and BWI in the DC/Baltimore region, even with the DCA hub, and (e) EWR, ISP, SWF, HPN in addition to LGA and JFK in Greater NYC, even with hubs at LGA and JFK.

UA does serve (a) BUR, ONT, and SNA in addition to LAX in Greater Los Angeles, even with the LAX hub, (b) SJC and STS in addition to SFO in the San Francisco Bay Area, even with the SFO hub, (c) DCA and BWI in addition to IAD in the DC/Baltimore region, even with the IAD hub, and (d) LGA and HPN in addition to EWR in Greater NYC, even with a hub at EWR.

DL does serve (a) BUR, LGB, ONT, SNA in addition to LAX in Greater Los Angeles, even with the LAX hub, (b) PVD and MHT in addition to BOS in Greater Boston, even with the BOS hub, and (c) EWR and HPN in addition to LGA and JFK in Greater NYC, even with hubs at LGA and JFK.
 
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STT757
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Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Fri Oct 02, 2020 12:29 pm

I think the level of reporting indicates United may have already identified or acquired the slots for their return. I imagine what they're working on now is a lease for gates and a club. At the bare minimum I would expect 7 daily flights to SFO, it could be more though as a response to B6's encroachment at EWR.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
CALMSP
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Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Fri Oct 02, 2020 2:34 pm

nycflyer99 wrote:
strfyr51 wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:

ORD unlikely. It would be a one way feeder route. JFK-IAD on UA existed mainly because UA had no NY gateway to Europe (pre merger). The JFK market to Europe is not what UA is going after there (it has EWR for that).

JFK to ORD,IAD,DEN,SFO.IAH,and LAX would help our Star Alliance partners far more than it would help UA. But? It would damn sure help UA as well because there are European paartners that could fly to NYC but maybe not much farther so it would extend their reach into the USA. And what might it cost UA to connect more passengers? Not a lot.It also might encourage them to connect with us at IAD as well.

What European carriers can United feed at JFK that aren't already served at EWR, IAD, or ORD? (or from destinations that UA already serves)


well, prior to UA getting into South Africa, it was ET/SQ. But also allowed LO with WAW/KRK/BUD.

I'm not quite sure why everyone seems so hung up on the negativity of operating a route like IAH-JFK to make connections beyond any O/D. UA would be able to driver a higher yield with keeping the likes of IAH-EWR for O/D (or other online connections and EWR-XXX O/D) and having offerings through IAD or potentially JFK.
 
codc10
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Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Fri Oct 02, 2020 3:04 pm

CALMSP wrote:
I'm not quite sure why everyone seems so hung up on the negativity of operating a route like IAH-JFK to make connections beyond any O/D. UA would be able to driver a higher yield with keeping the likes of IAH-EWR for O/D (or other online connections and EWR-XXX O/D) and having offerings through IAD or potentially JFK.


Back in the CO days, IAH-JFK yields and loads were consistently trash on the few times they tried the route. Different times, different market for sure, but if slot availability is any issue at all right now, the priority is SFO first, LAX second and everything else a distant third, fourth, fifth...

With international travel in the tank, as well, aside from some VFR markets, I doubt interline connections would be a considerable driver... with that said, I wonder how much cargo UA is trucking from JFK to EWR right now? In normal times, it's a lot, and I am curious if transcontinental cargo might be a consideration for JFK service? We know the empty 777 and 787 cabins on the EWR-LAX/SFO flights are often accompanied by full bellies. JFK is the undisputed cargo king of the NYC area (which is why UA maintained a physical cargo facility there even after ending pax service) and there might be a business case for it again given United Cargo's increased prominence in the company's (dire) financial performance.
 
CALMSP
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Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Fri Oct 02, 2020 3:18 pm

codc10 wrote:
CALMSP wrote:
I'm not quite sure why everyone seems so hung up on the negativity of operating a route like IAH-JFK to make connections beyond any O/D. UA would be able to driver a higher yield with keeping the likes of IAH-EWR for O/D (or other online connections and EWR-XXX O/D) and having offerings through IAD or potentially JFK.


Back in the CO days, IAH-JFK yields and loads were consistently trash on the few times they tried the route. Different times, different market for sure, but if slot availability is any issue at all right now, the priority is SFO first, LAX second and everything else a distant third, fourth, fifth...

With international travel in the tank, as well, aside from some VFR markets, I doubt interline connections would be a considerable driver... with that said, I wonder how much cargo UA is trucking from JFK to EWR right now? In normal times, it's a lot, and I am curious if transcontinental cargo might be a consideration for JFK service? We know the empty 777 and 787 cabins on the EWR-LAX/SFO flights are often accompanied by full bellies. JFK is the undisputed cargo king of the NYC area (which is why UA maintained a physical cargo facility there even after ending pax service) and there might be a business case for it again given United Cargo's increased prominence in the company's (dire) financial performance.


yeah, its going to be domestic only for a while. as for cargo, that cargo is a lot, with upwards of 10-15 trucks a day between JFK-EWR/IAD. But that is moving to Europe mostly, with a truck or so of domestic mail.
 
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jetblastdubai
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Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Fri Oct 02, 2020 3:58 pm

Is there that much more cargo moving now or is it the issue of fewer flights operating by the current JFK operators therefore demand outpacing supply? Wouldn't AA or DL know there is cargo potential there for the taking and jump on it first?
 
theasianguy
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Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Fri Oct 02, 2020 4:09 pm

My prediction is that only SFO and LAX would be worth serving from JFK. LGA is closer for most residents in Manhattan, Queens, Brooklyn, Westchester, and Connecticut, and they have IAD, ORD, IAH, DEN well covered from there.

I don't think UA benefits much from Star connections at JFK. IAH originating transatlantic traffic can easily transit on IAH-FRA or IAH-LHR. Most Star carriers already serve ORD and IAD. Especially since UA planned DCA-EWR shuttle service, there is no chance IAD-JFK would make a comeback.

UA will soon gain 1 more LHR slot from NZ and has said they eventually plan EWR-LHR going to 7x daily. There's a very slim chance I see UA change that to 5x EWR-LHR and 2x JFK-LHR.
 
airzona11
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Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Fri Oct 02, 2020 4:14 pm

theasianguy wrote:
My prediction is that only SFO and LAX would be worth serving from JFK. LGA is closer for most residents in Manhattan, Queens, Brooklyn, Westchester, and Connecticut, and they have IAD, ORD, IAH, DEN well covered from there.

I don't think UA benefits much from Star connections at JFK. IAH originating transatlantic traffic can easily transit on IAH-FRA or IAH-LHR. Most Star carriers already serve ORD and IAD. Especially since UA planned DCA-EWR shuttle service, there is no chance IAD-JFK would make a comeback.

UA will soon gain 1 more LHR slot from NZ and has said they eventually plan EWR-LHR going to 7x daily. There's a very slim chance I see UA change that to 5x EWR-LHR and 2x JFK-LHR.


Great points. JFK will target the highest dollar O/D.EWR has lots of Star connections. For the JV Star Carriers at JFK.... UA already has that traffic today. For connections, that is what EWR is for.
 
CALMSP
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Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Fri Oct 02, 2020 4:18 pm

jetblastdubai wrote:
Is there that much more cargo moving now or is it the issue of fewer flights operating by the current JFK operators therefore demand outpacing supply? Wouldn't AA or DL know there is cargo potential there for the taking and jump on it first?


this has always been the case for CO/UA. The freight forwarding community is in JFK, so a very large portion has been moving for years across to EWR. But, obviously there is a smaller capacity now at JFK.
 
cledaybuck
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Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Tue Oct 13, 2020 2:45 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
N649DL wrote:
To me, it's common sense: AA, B6, DL all exist at all 3 NYC airports, UA does not (after exiting in 2015).


UA is supporting an NYC hub: AA surely is not. DL is split across LGA/JFK. Be careful about competing with your own hub. Neither UA nor AA fly to MDW. AA doesn't fly to DAL. UA doesn't fly to OAK... Not at all. See a pattern?

UA doesn’t serve HOU either and has the smallest marketshare of the legacies at DCA (same for AA at FLL). Of course, we just had WN announce ORD and HOU, so who knows.
As we celebrate mediocrity, all the boys upstairs want to see, how much you'll pay for what you used to get for free.
 
strfyr51
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Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Tue Oct 13, 2020 4:22 am

Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
ORD Boy 2 wrote:
Do it...
And from LAX, SFO, DEN, IAH, IAD and ORD...


JFK-ORD hasn’t ever worked out for anyone. Given the LGA presence, I’m not sure DEN or IAH would work that well either

So? Nobody is flying JFK ORD, Or JFK-DEN? or? Nobody wants or needs to fly ORD/DEN TO JFK? I know United didn't do it to any great extent previously because of the lack of gates at JFK. while I worked at United. But we did and still DO have a maintenance crew at JFK and they meet and service the *A partner airlines who fly into JFK so somebody doesn't agree with you. And you have evidence to the contrary? I would challenge you to post it. Unless this is nothing BUT an Opinion.
 
strfyr51
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Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Tue Oct 13, 2020 4:26 am

nycflyer99 wrote:
strfyr51 wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:

ORD unlikely. It would be a one way feeder route. JFK-IAD on UA existed mainly because UA had no NY gateway to Europe (pre merger). The JFK market to Europe is not what UA is going after there (it has EWR for that).

JFK to ORD,IAD,DEN,SFO.IAH,and LAX would help our Star Alliance partners far more than it would help UA. But? It would damn sure help UA as well because there are European paartners that could fly to NYC but maybe not much farther so it would extend their reach into the USA. And what might it cost UA to connect more passengers? Not a lot.It also might encourage them to connect with us at IAD as well.

What European carriers can United feed at JFK that aren't already served at EWR, IAD, or ORD? (or from destinations that UA already serves)

LH for One!
 
strfyr51
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Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Tue Oct 13, 2020 5:00 am

strfyr51 wrote:
nycflyer99 wrote:
strfyr51 wrote:
JFK to ORD,IAD,DEN,SFO.IAH,and LAX would help our Star Alliance partners far more than it would help UA. But? It would damn sure help UA as well because there are European paartners that could fly to NYC but maybe not much farther so it would extend their reach into the USA. And what might it cost UA to connect more passengers? Not a lot.It also might encourage them to connect with us at IAD as well.

What European carriers can United feed at JFK that aren't already served at EWR, IAD, or ORD? (or from destinations that UA already serves)

LH for One!
also Agean. South African. Egypt, SAS. Adrian.,Asean, Austrian and Brussels from Europe. ANZ,Air China. Thai, All Nippon, and Asiana.
all who decried United leaving JFK in the first place. We've served them at EWR, however? Nobody disputes that JFK is the premier NYC airport and with many around the world as strange as it is? Not flying into JFK? Seems to them to be a loss of "Face" Something We in the USA don't understand, But to the Asian Carriers? It's real. As if they're getting something Less than the Best we have. I've worked at JFK Before coming to United in 1984. I didn't see a damn thing "special" about JFK other than their endless Hangars and they had Huge ones. Getting around JFK was a Pain in the Butt. And as I had to drive around Long Island and in and out of NYC I was always glad to leave there. But? NYC is like Dope to a Junkie! They can never get enough of it. having grown up on the East Coast? the best part about working at JFK? Was when I went back home to the West Coast as I was based out of Monterey Ca. But I DO understand the lure of JFK.. My pals at United who worked at JFK Loved it ! I just didn't see it..
 
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RyanairGuru
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Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Tue Oct 13, 2020 9:15 am

strfyr51 wrote:
strfyr51 wrote:
nycflyer99 wrote:
What European carriers can United feed at JFK that aren't already served at EWR, IAD, or ORD? (or from destinations that UA already serves)

LH for One!
also Agean. South African. Egypt, SAS. Adrian.,Asean, Austrian and Brussels from Europe. ANZ,Air China. Thai, All Nippon, and Asiana.
all who decried United leaving JFK in the first place. We've served them at EWR, however? Nobody disputes that JFK is the premier NYC airport and with many around the world as strange as it is? Not flying into JFK? Seems to them to be a loss of "Face" Something We in the USA don't understand, But to the Asian Carriers? It's real. As if they're getting something Less than the Best we have. I've worked at JFK Before coming to United in 1984. I didn't see a damn thing "special" about JFK other than their endless Hangars and they had Huge ones. Getting around JFK was a Pain in the Butt. And as I had to drive around Long Island and in and out of NYC I was always glad to leave there. But? NYC is like Dope to a Junkie! They can never get enough of it. having grown up on the East Coast? the best part about working at JFK? Was when I went back home to the West Coast as I was based out of Monterey Ca. But I DO understand the lure of JFK.. My pals at United who worked at JFK Loved it ! I just didn't see it..


The problem is that other than Adria and Aegean, who don't fly to the USA, all of the other airlines fly to another UA hub already.

The Asian carriers are irrelevant as if they want to fly to JFK then they will, but nobody is connecting HND-JFK-LAX, or even HND-JFK-IAH for that matter. For those carriers they are better served by UA at SFO and LAX.

For European carriers, every single one flies to at least one of EWR, ORD or IAD. That offers them plenty of domestic connectivity, and much broader than just LAX and SFO (plus maybe a couple of hubs) which they will get through JFK.

Some international connections will help with some incremental traffic over JFK, no doubt, but it is definitely not the reason for running a station.
Worked Hard, Flew Right
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Tue Oct 13, 2020 1:03 pm

Just a note---EWR will need B789 service as some of those flights will then head to South Africa, and JNB and CPT will be B789 destinations. As for JFK-LHR, a 167-seat B763 would make more sense as the 73J would struggle in the winter.
 
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STT757
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Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Tue Oct 13, 2020 2:27 pm

Just an observation, back in the early - mid '00s I was at JFK T-4 and walked past the CO check in counters while they were checking people in for a flight to Houston. Judging by the bags on the luggage most in line seemed to be connecting from a Pakistani airways flight. I know Pakistani eventually flew to Houston. I think interline connections to carriers that do not serve Houston would be the bread and butter of the flights if UA relaunched IAH-JFK. Connections from Pakistan (VFR), Russia (oil), Azerbaijan (oil), Egypt (VFR), Uzbekistan (oil).
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
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airzim
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Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Tue Oct 13, 2020 2:39 pm

STT757 wrote:
Just an observation, back in the early - mid '00s I was at JFK T-4 and walked past the CO check in counters while they were checking people in for a flight to Houston. Judging by the bags on the luggage most in line seemed to be connecting from a Pakistani airways flight. I know Pakistani eventually flew to Houston. I think interline connections to carriers that do not serve Houston would be the bread and butter of the flights if UA relaunched IAH-JFK. Connections from Pakistan (VFR), Russia (oil), Azerbaijan (oil), Egypt (VFR), Uzbekistan (oil).


Why? That's garbage traffic for United Terrible interline prorate fares. United would much rather take the longhaul to FRA or MUC and have then connect to LH for those sectors onto ISB, KHI, Baku, etc.

JetBlue takes a lot of that junk in the NE region at JFK. I'm sure United (and DL and AA for that matter) are happy to let them keep that traffic.

To make JFK work, they would want JFK POS to take downline traffic to the hubs, for example (JFK-IAH-GUA/PTY/EZE/MEX) or gain a transcon corporate traffic to/from LAX/SFO. Finally whatever traffic they could carry themselves between the local O&D and through traffic beyond SFO and LAX to the Pacific. They don't want STAR connections or interlines at JFK. There might be a play to leisure routes to the South and Caribbean, but I suspect they wouldn't have the gate space to make anything meaningful work.
 
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AirKevin
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Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Tue Oct 13, 2020 2:50 pm

Boeing757100 wrote:
FINALLY. When I found that UA doesn't serve JFK, I was startled. I and my little kid mind thought that all international airlines served JFK and also every US airline. I finally realized it doesn't work that way, and that UA had a huge EWR hub, so there was no need for JFK.

They did at some point, but dropped it a few years ago. At that point, they were only flying to LAX and SFO.
Captain Kevin
 
fun2fly
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Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Tue Oct 13, 2020 3:24 pm

The fact of the matter is that we don't know what the Big 4 will look like in 18 months. All the demand has been thrown up in the air and it's up for grabs (see WN at IAH/ORD, UA P2P's, etc.). While the government will likely float these guys a few more $$, something will have to give and some players won't make it as there is simply too much capacity to float for 18-36 months until things return. There is pent up demand on the leisure and corporate sides, but those returning to the sky will have an irregular demand pattern going forward. Own a house in FLA? Drive in 2020, fly once in 2021, fly like the old days 5x in 2022. Who knows? What we do see is VFR (grandma's sick, miss the kids at school, weddings, etc.) picking up now so the routing departments have to be creative. What we need to see post vaccine is the "we haven't been to our plant in Germany in 9 months" trips rebound.
 
NA001
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Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Tue Oct 13, 2020 6:19 pm

UA lost money for years on JFK-LHR, and that was BEFORE they had to compete with AA having hub feed on the LHR end. No way UA would restart that loss maker.
 
A388
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Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Tue Oct 13, 2020 7:29 pm

Is there any chance of UA flying to the Caribbean from JFK in the future?

A388
 
AmericanAir88
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Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Tue Oct 13, 2020 8:11 pm

I don't see UA putting routes to ORD, IAH, IAD, or IAH from JFK. They already have that covered at LGA and EWR. Pre-Covid, LGA-ORD was a very successful and frequent route. With the new LGA terminal, I see UA focusing on cities that are past the LGA boundary (SFO and LAX). A reminder that SFO and LAX are JFK's most traveled routes.

I have an inkling that UA may even experiment with some more successful unique routes like JFK-LAS and JFK-SJU.

I do see this as more of a post-covid plan though or at least when travel is >50% of 2019.
 
AmericanAir88
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Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Tue Oct 13, 2020 8:19 pm

Also, what does UA plan to do terminal wise?

Terminal 1: All international.
Terminal 2: Will be gone soon and is not appealing to travelers compared to EWR and especially the new LGA.
Terminal 4: Concourse A side is mostly international but UA could take some slots. DL would never give up concourse B
Terminal 5: This is Jetblue city. UA can't touch this one
Terminal 7: Sigh. This terminal is such a puzzle. It will be replaced soon, but also has been an outlier (besides T2). BA and AS will definitely go to T8 in the future, but I have no idea what will become of this terminal. Mostly used for smaller international carriers. Maybe for UA short term.
Terminal 8: Oneworld City. AA, BA, and AS will become an empire in this terminal post-covid. UA won't be able to join this.

In conclusion, I see T4A or T7 being the only realistic options for UA. UA could try to do something with DL for some slot negotiation. However, I think the rebuilt JFK will be the time when UA will get a bigger presence.
 
slcdeltarumd11
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Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Wed Oct 14, 2020 3:40 am

United is still not in a good financial position. They need to watch cash very closely as there is no real signs of when demand will return. No way are they going to launch 15 daily 752 flights to LAX and SFO from JFK. They cant burn that kind of cash here while demand is super low. Those are very fuel thirsty and long flights ie alot of operating costs.

1.The most likely situation is United doesn't even return to JFK.

2.The second most likely scenario is they return with IAD service at launch. It would be a station re-launch and just to acquire gate space and counter space etc while its easy and available. LAX/SFO would be down the road when demand is alot more then now like 2022. Also don't expect any type of frequency like 15x daily transcons. For JFK they only need 4 flights a day to each city to offer a good variety of time options. 4 well timed flights is fine, they wont be the market leader. Those routes are so competitive. I don't see any situation united launches LAX and SFO when they re-start JFK it will be way down the road closer to when there is demand to capture. Going back would be literally to reserve space or get some IAD flights going to hold gates and space. Might be good timing for UA to get back but they can't burn a ton of cash running 15x 752s across the country on a relaunch.
 
codc10
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Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Wed Oct 14, 2020 3:57 am

slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
United is still not in a good financial position. They need to watch cash very closely as there is no real signs of when demand will return. No way are they going to launch 15 daily 752 flights to LAX and SFO from JFK. They cant burn that kind of cash here while demand is super low. Those are very fuel thirsty and long flights ie alot of operating costs.

1.The most likely situation is United doesn't even return to JFK.

2.The second most likely scenario is they return with IAD service at launch. It would be a station re-launch and just to acquire gate space and counter space etc while its easy and available. LAX/SFO would be down the road when demand is alot more then now like 2022. Also don't expect any type of frequency like 15x daily transcons. For JFK they only need 4 flights a day to each city to offer a good variety of time options. 4 well timed flights is fine, they wont be the market leader. Those routes are so competitive. I don't see any situation united launches LAX and SFO when they re-start JFK it will be way down the road closer to when there is demand to capture. Going back would be literally to reserve space or get some IAD flights going to hold gates and space. Might be good timing for UA to get back but they can't burn a ton of cash running 15x 752s across the country on a relaunch.


There is no reason to launch JFK with only IAD service. It’s SFO, and then everything else.
 
slcdeltarumd11
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Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Wed Oct 14, 2020 4:28 am

codc10 wrote:
slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
United is still not in a good financial position. They need to watch cash very closely as there is no real signs of when demand will return. No way are they going to launch 15 daily 752 flights to LAX and SFO from JFK. They cant burn that kind of cash here while demand is super low. Those are very fuel thirsty and long flights ie alot of operating costs.

1.The most likely situation is United doesn't even return to JFK.

2.The second most likely scenario is they return with IAD service at launch. It would be a station re-launch and just to acquire gate space and counter space etc while its easy and available. LAX/SFO would be down the road when demand is alot more then now like 2022. Also don't expect any type of frequency like 15x daily transcons. For JFK they only need 4 flights a day to each city to offer a good variety of time options. 4 well timed flights is fine, they wont be the market leader. Those routes are so competitive. I don't see any situation united launches LAX and SFO when they re-start JFK it will be way down the road closer to when there is demand to capture. Going back would be literally to reserve space or get some IAD flights going to hold gates and space. Might be good timing for UA to get back but they can't burn a ton of cash running 15x 752s across the country on a relaunch.


There is no reason to launch JFK with only IAD service. It’s SFO, and then everything else.


You dont get it. United needs to conserve cash. Flights to SFO will burn money right now. Very have high operating costs on a transcon. Lots of hours, lots of fuel(757s burn alot), higher end catering contracts, higher end liquor contracts, they need a lounge, more staff etc. This isn't 2019 everything is different. AA, B6 and DL cant even fill their reduced schedules on JFK-LAX/SFO united jumping in would be a cash burn for everyone especially united. Not going to happen. United has nothing to gain by going into SFO route right now there is NO high end business traffic or hollywood traffic. I have seen fares $419 in business constantly on B6 and UA out of EWR. There is a sale almost every other day and no way those fares cover costs. This isn't 2019 there is a very limited demand. A relaunch would mean the airport not the routes, literally to hold space while its good. Thats all. UA might might come back to JFK but it would be small and to hold space that's it until they see demand pickup.
 
catiii
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Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Wed Oct 14, 2020 4:38 am

STT757 wrote:
Just an observation, back in the early - mid '00s I was at JFK T-4 and walked past the CO check in counters while they were checking people in for a flight to Houston. Judging by the bags on the luggage most in line seemed to be connecting from a Pakistani airways flight. I know Pakistani eventually flew to Houston. I think interline connections to carriers that do not serve Houston would be the bread and butter of the flights if UA relaunched IAH-JFK. Connections from Pakistan (VFR), Russia (oil), Azerbaijan (oil), Egypt (VFR), Uzbekistan (oil).


15 to 20 years ago you saw some Pakistani bags going to IAH on an interline at an airline that no longer exists, and the extrapolation is that here in pandemic 2020-2021 second and third world interline (not codeshare mind you) would be the "bread and butter" of a hypothetical city pairing?
 
catiii
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Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Wed Oct 14, 2020 4:42 am

slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
AA, B6 and DL cant even fill their reduced schedules on JFK-LAX/SFO united jumping in would be a cash burn for everyone especially united.


You sure about that?

Practically every flight pre 10/1 that B6 was operating was cash positive.
 
catiii
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Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Wed Oct 14, 2020 4:46 am

A388 wrote:
Is there any chance of UA flying to the Caribbean from JFK in the future?

A388


Not unless they want to lose a pile of money.
 
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hOMSaR
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Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Wed Oct 14, 2020 10:06 am

A number of posts in this thread had to be deleted, a few of which were off topic or in violation of other forum rules, and a number of which quoted those deleted posts.

I’d like to ask all posters to be mindful of forum rules when posting (and when responding to other posts).

If you are going to post factual claims that aren’t common knowledge (such as statistics), you should include a reference to where the information comes from. If you are making anecdotal observations or opinions, please label them as such. Same goes with any plans for future service. If they are based in fact, please point to the fact. If they are based in rumor, they should be clearly labeled as such. If you just want to play airline route planner, it’s probably best for the Aviation Hobby forum.

Further, please don’t post the same thing (or variations of the same thing) multiple times in the thread.

If things turn into a debate, remember to debate the topic, not the user. If you feel that someone has made personal attacks or posted anything else in violation of forum rules, report the post for a moderator to review. Replying to the comment just makes the eventual thread cleanup more difficult and risks good content being lost because it quoted another post that had to be deleted.
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codc10
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Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Wed Oct 14, 2020 11:56 am

slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
codc10 wrote:
slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
United is still not in a good financial position. They need to watch cash very closely as there is no real signs of when demand will return. No way are they going to launch 15 daily 752 flights to LAX and SFO from JFK. They cant burn that kind of cash here while demand is super low. Those are very fuel thirsty and long flights ie alot of operating costs.

1.The most likely situation is United doesn't even return to JFK.

2.The second most likely scenario is they return with IAD service at launch. It would be a station re-launch and just to acquire gate space and counter space etc while its easy and available. LAX/SFO would be down the road when demand is alot more then now like 2022. Also don't expect any type of frequency like 15x daily transcons. For JFK they only need 4 flights a day to each city to offer a good variety of time options. 4 well timed flights is fine, they wont be the market leader. Those routes are so competitive. I don't see any situation united launches LAX and SFO when they re-start JFK it will be way down the road closer to when there is demand to capture. Going back would be literally to reserve space or get some IAD flights going to hold gates and space. Might be good timing for UA to get back but they can't burn a ton of cash running 15x 752s across the country on a relaunch.


There is no reason to launch JFK with only IAD service. It’s SFO, and then everything else.


You dont get it. United needs to conserve cash. Flights to SFO will burn money right now. Very have high operating costs on a transcon. Lots of hours, lots of fuel(757s burn alot), higher end catering contracts, higher end liquor contracts, they need a lounge, more staff etc. This isn't 2019 everything is different. AA, B6 and DL cant even fill their reduced schedules on JFK-LAX/SFO united jumping in would be a cash burn for everyone especially united. Not going to happen. United has nothing to gain by going into SFO route right now there is NO high end business traffic or hollywood traffic. I have seen fares $419 in business constantly on B6 and UA out of EWR. There is a sale almost every other day and no way those fares cover costs. This isn't 2019 there is a very limited demand. A relaunch would mean the airport not the routes, literally to hold space while its good. Thats all. UA might might come back to JFK but it would be small and to hold space that's it until they see demand pickup.


I think you’re the one missing the point. Launching JFK service, including leasing gate space, hiring staff, purchasing equipment, only to add low-revenue service to IAD, ***even as a placeholder for future flying***, would be a complete waste of resources with no chance (meaning, 0.0) of a return. I understand the point you’re trying to make, but it’s not a reflection of the way United views the market.

If United is coming back to JFK, it’s going to be for the transcons, and specifically SFO. Otherwise, it’s not happening. Full stop.
 
slcdeltarumd11
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Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Wed Oct 14, 2020 6:12 pm

codc10 wrote:
slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
codc10 wrote:

There is no reason to launch JFK with only IAD service. It’s SFO, and then everything else.


You dont get it. United needs to conserve cash. Flights to SFO will burn money right now. Very have high operating costs on a transcon. Lots of hours, lots of fuel(757s burn alot), higher end catering contracts, higher end liquor contracts, they need a lounge, more staff etc. This isn't 2019 everything is different. AA, B6 and DL cant even fill their reduced schedules on JFK-LAX/SFO united jumping in would be a cash burn for everyone especially united. Not going to happen. United has nothing to gain by going into SFO route right now there is NO high end business traffic or hollywood traffic. I have seen fares $419 in business constantly on B6 and UA out of EWR. There is a sale almost every other day and no way those fares cover costs. This isn't 2019 there is a very limited demand. A relaunch would mean the airport not the routes, literally to hold space while its good. Thats all. UA might might come back to JFK but it would be small and to hold space that's it until they see demand pickup.


I think you’re the one missing the point. Launching JFK service, including leasing gate space, hiring staff, purchasing equipment, only to add low-revenue service to IAD, ***even as a placeholder for future flying***, would be a complete waste of resources with no chance (meaning, 0.0) of a return. I understand the point you’re trying to make, but it’s not a reflection of the way United views the market.

If United is coming back to JFK, it’s going to be for the transcons, and specifically SFO. Otherwise, it’s not happening. Full stop.


You are correct that would be the long term goal.

They plan to serve SFO and LAX if they come back but that doesn't mean on day 1. They can transition iad flying to lax/SFO and lose alot less money then operating those right now. Any investment in going back to JFK will cost money. Transcons would be launched when there is actually some demand back or PANYNJ is ready to restrict access etc.

Let's see if united even returns to JFK, they may have decided they don't feel comfortable using that much cash right now anyway. It's a good long term opportunity , but they might decide in the end holding onto cash is more important right now.
 
FSDan
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Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Wed Oct 14, 2020 6:20 pm

codc10 wrote:
There is no reason to launch JFK with only IAD service. It’s SFO, and then everything else.


Agree re IAD, but I'd say it's JFK-LAX, then JFK-SFO, then everything else. When Kirby talked about regretting pulling out of JFK, it was due to losing LA area entertainment contracts.
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codc10
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Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Wed Oct 14, 2020 8:09 pm

slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
codc10 wrote:
slcdeltarumd11 wrote:

You dont get it. United needs to conserve cash. Flights to SFO will burn money right now. Very have high operating costs on a transcon. Lots of hours, lots of fuel(757s burn alot), higher end catering contracts, higher end liquor contracts, they need a lounge, more staff etc. This isn't 2019 everything is different. AA, B6 and DL cant even fill their reduced schedules on JFK-LAX/SFO united jumping in would be a cash burn for everyone especially united. Not going to happen. United has nothing to gain by going into SFO route right now there is NO high end business traffic or hollywood traffic. I have seen fares $419 in business constantly on B6 and UA out of EWR. There is a sale almost every other day and no way those fares cover costs. This isn't 2019 there is a very limited demand. A relaunch would mean the airport not the routes, literally to hold space while its good. Thats all. UA might might come back to JFK but it would be small and to hold space that's it until they see demand pickup.


I think you’re the one missing the point. Launching JFK service, including leasing gate space, hiring staff, purchasing equipment, only to add low-revenue service to IAD, ***even as a placeholder for future flying***, would be a complete waste of resources with no chance (meaning, 0.0) of a return. I understand the point you’re trying to make, but it’s not a reflection of the way United views the market.

If United is coming back to JFK, it’s going to be for the transcons, and specifically SFO. Otherwise, it’s not happening. Full stop.


You are correct that would be the long term goal.

They plan to serve SFO and LAX if they come back but that doesn't mean on day 1. They can transition iad flying to lax/SFO and lose alot less money then operating those right now. Any investment in going back to JFK will cost money. Transcons would be launched when there is actually some demand back or PANYNJ is ready to restrict access etc.

Let's see if united even returns to JFK, they may have decided they don't feel comfortable using that much cash right now anyway. It's a good long term opportunity , but they might decide in the end holding onto cash is more important right now.


I understand what you are getting at, but there is no chance whatsoever (literally... none) that United is going back into JFK without transcontinental service. It's the only reason United would consider going back in the first place. If there's no business case to reopen the station for its West Coast hubs, because of cash burn, demand or capacity, then United won't be back until such time as there is.

FSDan wrote:
codc10 wrote:
There is no reason to launch JFK with only IAD service. It’s SFO, and then everything else.


Agree re IAD, but I'd say it's JFK-LAX, then JFK-SFO, then everything else. When Kirby talked about regretting pulling out of JFK, it was due to losing LA area entertainment contracts.


It's true that the LAX-based entertainment contracts (specifically Disney's) suffered after losing JFK, but United lost some corporate business at the SFO point of sale, as well. The SFO corporate market is still somewhat captive, however,. The question remains whether United still wants to play in the SoCal sandbox post-COVID. I suspect it does, and anticipate we'll see both SFO/LAX eventually.
 
strfyr51
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Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Wed Oct 14, 2020 9:21 pm

nycflyer99 wrote:
strfyr51 wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:

ORD unlikely. It would be a one way feeder route. JFK-IAD on UA existed mainly because UA had no NY gateway to Europe (pre merger). The JFK market to Europe is not what UA is going after there (it has EWR for that).

JFK to ORD,IAD,DEN,SFO.IAH,and LAX would help our Star Alliance partners far more than it would help UA. But? It would damn sure help UA as well because there are European paartners that could fly to NYC but maybe not much farther so it would extend their reach into the USA. And what might it cost UA to connect more passengers? Not a lot.It also might encourage them to connect with us at IAD as well.

What European carriers can United feed at JFK that aren't already served at EWR, IAD, or ORD? (or from destinations that UA already serves)

I see that what you espouse is let good enough be enough.. Well? That might well be a safe bet. But? Wjo have you SEEN prosper from NOT taking a chance?? United xhas A321's on order (I think at least 10 if im not mistaken) and if those airplanes are equipped to fly Transcon, and have the room for the Luxury sleeper seats? Then There you have the fleet you need for JFK to the west coast. Aand it it works out to the positive? Then the 737-10 can expand that idea from IAD to the west coast. and maybe? Take it all the way to Hawaii.
But to just stand Pat and do Nothing? Is WN , or JBLU doing that? Are they NOT United competitors? Since they are? Then you must be crazy, are you kidding me? You sure sound and look like the same guy decrying United shouldn't want a hub in south Florida. Because all that Defeatist talk? was then covering up for somebody Else to do it . and you r post looks just like His post was , A bunch of Hide and quiver talk while covering for someone Else to do it!. By the way? What Airline do you or Did you work for? Cuz' it sure as HELL ain't United. Hell ! your posts look Petrified they may even do it and you or your favorite airline might be missing out. And Just for the record? I DID work for and AM retired From UNITED. SFOMM, SFOLM, OPBLM and WHQLM. So? I'm BIG Fan of United!
 
slcdeltarumd11
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Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Wed Oct 14, 2020 11:26 pm

Why is this hard for people to understand. UA doesn't have the cash to fly 15 752s a day to LAX and SFO on launch of JFK. They won't do that in this economy where they will burn cash. The long term goal is of course for LAX/SFO but they can secure assets at JFK without those super expensive to operate flights. If anyone thinks UA is launching 8x to SFO and 7x 752s on launch in this economy your wrong, actual 0.0% chance.

I spoke to my friend at UA he thinks cash preservation is so important right now they won't even launch JFK at all. They can't afford the cash burn of very fuel thirsty 752s on a new route with zero business demand right now. Everyone has fire sales on business class on those routes right now out already with less flights. Covid-19 is crushing jfk-lax/SFO premium cabin demand. Cash preservation is key to united survival , they have to watch cash. If they can secure JFK assets at a low cost that might work just to hold them , but they are not out for a full launch to lax/SFO. There is no corporate demand right now
 
gwrudolph
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Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Wed Oct 14, 2020 11:42 pm

RyanairGuru wrote:
strfyr51 wrote:
strfyr51 wrote:
LH for One!
also Agean. South African. Egypt, SAS. Adrian.,Asean, Austrian and Brussels from Europe. ANZ,Air China. Thai, All Nippon, and Asiana.
all who decried United leaving JFK in the first place. We've served them at EWR, however? Nobody disputes that JFK is the premier NYC airport and with many around the world as strange as it is? Not flying into JFK? Seems to them to be a loss of "Face" Something We in the USA don't understand, But to the Asian Carriers? It's real. As if they're getting something Less than the Best we have. I've worked at JFK Before coming to United in 1984. I didn't see a damn thing "special" about JFK other than their endless Hangars and they had Huge ones. Getting around JFK was a Pain in the Butt. And as I had to drive around Long Island and in and out of NYC I was always glad to leave there. But? NYC is like Dope to a Junkie! They can never get enough of it. having grown up on the East Coast? the best part about working at JFK? Was when I went back home to the West Coast as I was based out of Monterey Ca. But I DO understand the lure of JFK.. My pals at United who worked at JFK Loved it ! I just didn't see it..


The problem is that other than Adria and Aegean, who don't fly to the USA, all of the other airlines fly to another UA hub already.

The Asian carriers are irrelevant as if they want to fly to JFK then they will, but nobody is connecting HND-JFK-LAX, or even HND-JFK-IAH for that matter. For those carriers they are better served by UA at SFO and LAX.

For European carriers, every single one flies to at least one of EWR, ORD or IAD. That offers them plenty of domestic connectivity, and much broader than just LAX and SFO (plus maybe a couple of hubs) which they will get through JFK.

Some international connections will help with some incremental traffic over JFK, no doubt, but it is definitely not the reason for running a station.


With nonstops from all over the world to U.S. carrier hubs, JFK just isn’t what it was 30 years ago . . .
 
strfyr51
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Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Thu Oct 15, 2020 2:04 am

Lootess wrote:
UA should have never left JFK in the first place, but with Kirby running the show now they are going to be more aggressive than last time.

for the time I was with UAL we never had our own terminal at JFK so we were Squatters at the IAB and departed from the British term Now that the IAB is gone We'll have tp secure a permanent space somewhere and Bring it up to standardsand that assumes we have CSR's and staff to even support operations there aside from our Star Alliance Duties. though we do have a full ground crew and Maintenance crew there. One of my good friends is a Lead mechanic there and has been for the last 20 years.
 
strfyr51
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Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Thu Oct 15, 2020 2:43 am

FSDan wrote:
codc10 wrote:
There is no reason to launch JFK with only IAD service. It’s SFO, and then everything else.


Agree re IAD, but I'd say it's JFK-LAX, then JFK-SFO, then everything else. When Kirby talked about regretting pulling out of JFK, it was due to losing LA area entertainment contracts.

Kirby wasn't original in wanting to return to JFK. Oscar Munoz from the time he became CEO after Jeff Smisek stated that returning to JFK was a priority. But it Had to be planned and it had to be done Right. The other Star Alliance partners wanted to connect at JFK as well and that in itself carries a lot of NYC as JFK is seen as the Premier NYC Gateway Airport and it takes nothing away from EWR . But we know AND They Know EWR us not in New York City or? State. It may be Just as Good AS? But it Ain't NEW York! I'm from Philadelphia abt to me? JFK is A PAIN IN THE BUTT! while I lived and worked at JFK I lived out off the Belt parkway Way the hell out on the Island. I wasn't used to the traffic and didn't like it. That is? Until I worked at SFO and lived in the East Bay where for no good damn reason going 28 miles could take 3 damn Hours! and I learned to appreciate what living and working in NYC entailed. because of the two if them? NYC was many times an easier Drive to and from work at SFOIA..
 
slcdeltarumd11
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Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Thu Oct 15, 2020 6:36 am

Just some facts for the people who still think its 2019:

Untied is still losing $25 million a day right now
They just lost 1.8 billion dollars Q3
Cash preservation is key to their survival and they continue to take on debt and loans using mileage plus and other assets to try to ride this out

The reason their loses haven't been worse is they have really reduced their flights and crew so much. They are not in a cash position to launch 15x very fuel thirsty 752s out of JFK on long transcons. United simply can't afford that kind of cash drain anytime soon and there isn't any demand to support that.
 
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STT757
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Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Thu Oct 15, 2020 12:40 pm

slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
Just some facts for the people who still think its 2019:

Untied is still losing $25 million a day right now
They just lost 1.8 billion dollars Q3
Cash preservation is key to their survival and they continue to take on debt and loans using mileage plus and other assets to try to ride this out

The reason their loses haven't been worse is they have really reduced their flights and crew so much. They are not in a cash position to launch 15x very fuel thirsty 752s out of JFK on long transcons. United simply can't afford that kind of cash drain anytime soon and there isn't any demand to support that.


Have you seen all the new routes United announced,

San Francisco-Bangalore, Chicago-New Delhi, Newark-Johannesburg, Washington Dulles-Accra, Washington Dulles-Lagos, Newark-Maui, Chicago-Tel Aviv, Chicago-Kona.

https://hub.united.com/2020-09-09-united-airlines-strengthens-global-network-adding-new-nonstops-to-africa-india-and-hawaii-2647535777.html

Plus all the new flights to Florida from LaGuardia, Milwaukee, Indianapolis, Columbus, Pittsburgh, Boston etc..

https://hub.united.com/2020-08-12-adjusting-to-customer-demand-united-adds-new-nonstop-service-to-florida-2646962841.html

With all that in mind it's curious why you feel so strongly that adding lets say five daily JFK-SFO flights would somehow bankrupt the company? United, nor American, nor Delta have even declared bankruptcy yet. Keep in mind that pre merger United was in bankruptcy for SEVEN YEARS! And during those seven years they added new flights and destinations. We have a long tough slog to get through this pandemic, my strong belief is that whom ever wins the Presidential election more economic support will be coming for the carriers. The carriers will still shrink, and there's still more rough road but I predict they will receive aid to carry them through until 2022 without any of the big three declaring bankruptcy.

The 752s are paid for and fuel is cheap, plus United is one of if not the largest tenant of the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey and pays a substantial amount to the agency each year in terms of rent and fees. If United asks the Port Authority will find a way to accommodate them at Kennedy, especially when so many international carriers have suspended service.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
codc10
Posts: 2908
Joined: Sat Jul 08, 2000 7:18 am

Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Thu Oct 15, 2020 12:59 pm

slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
Just some facts for the people who still think its 2019:

Untied is still losing $25 million a day right now
They just lost 1.8 billion dollars Q3
Cash preservation is key to their survival and they continue to take on debt and loans using mileage plus and other assets to try to ride this out

The reason their loses haven't been worse is they have really reduced their flights and crew so much. They are not in a cash position to launch 15x very fuel thirsty 752s out of JFK on long transcons. United simply can't afford that kind of cash drain anytime soon and there isn't any demand to support that.


I must have missed the part where United actually announced it is returning to JFK with “15x very fuel thirsty 752s” in the midst of the pandemic?

This is speculative and would be a future play. Nobody expects these losses to continue in perpetuity. When conditions improve, which they will, a return to JFK has been part of a long-term strategic plan.
 
jetmatt777
Posts: 4338
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 2:16 am

Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Thu Oct 15, 2020 1:16 pm

codc10 wrote:
slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
Just some facts for the people who still think its 2019:

Untied is still losing $25 million a day right now
They just lost 1.8 billion dollars Q3
Cash preservation is key to their survival and they continue to take on debt and loans using mileage plus and other assets to try to ride this out

The reason their loses haven't been worse is they have really reduced their flights and crew so much. They are not in a cash position to launch 15x very fuel thirsty 752s out of JFK on long transcons. United simply can't afford that kind of cash drain anytime soon and there isn't any demand to support that.


I must have missed the part where United actually announced it is returning to JFK with “15x very fuel thirsty 752s” in the midst of the pandemic?

This is speculative and would be a future play. Nobody expects these losses to continue in perpetuity. When conditions improve, which they will, a return to JFK has been part of a long-term strategic plan.

A certain poster kept posting scenario after scenario as fact, when it was just only his opinion.

We dont even have confirmation that UA is going to JFK, and people are already passing their own speculation as fact.
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