Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

  • 1
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • 6
  • 7
  • 11
 
slcdeltarumd11
Posts: 4910
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2004 7:30 am

Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Thu Oct 15, 2020 1:49 pm

STT757 wrote:
slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
Just some facts for the people who still think its 2019:

Untied is still losing $25 million a day right now
They just lost 1.8 billion dollars Q3
Cash preservation is key to their survival and they continue to take on debt and loans using mileage plus and other assets to try to ride this out

The reason their loses haven't been worse is they have really reduced their flights and crew so much. They are not in a cash position to launch 15x very fuel thirsty 752s out of JFK on long transcons. United simply can't afford that kind of cash drain anytime soon and there isn't any demand to support that.


Have you seen all the new routes United announced,

San Francisco-Bangalore, Chicago-New Delhi, Newark-Johannesburg, Washington Dulles-Accra, Washington Dulles-Lagos, Newark-Maui, Chicago-Tel Aviv, Chicago-Kona.

https://hub.united.com/2020-09-09-united-airlines-strengthens-global-network-adding-new-nonstops-to-africa-india-and-hawaii-2647535777.html

Plus all the new flights to Florida from LaGuardia, Milwaukee, Indianapolis, Columbus, Pittsburgh, Boston etc..

https://hub.united.com/2020-08-12-adjusting-to-customer-demand-united-adds-new-nonstop-service-to-florida-2646962841.html

With all that in mind it's curious why you feel so strongly that adding lets say five daily JFK-SFO flights would somehow bankrupt the company? United, nor American, nor Delta have even declared bankruptcy yet. Keep in mind that pre merger United was in bankruptcy for SEVEN YEARS! And during those seven years they added new flights and destinations. We have a long tough slog to get through this pandemic, my strong belief is that whom ever wins the Presidential election more economic support will be coming for the carriers. The carriers will still shrink, and there's still more rough road but I predict they will receive aid to carry them through until 2022 without any of the big three declaring bankruptcy.

The 752s are paid for and fuel is cheap, plus United is one of if not the largest tenant of the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey and pays a substantial amount to the agency each year in terms of rent and fees. If United asks the Port Authority will find a way to accommodate them at Kennedy, especially when so many international carriers have suspended service.


You literally make my point. Those are all leisure or targeted community routes. Look at them. Premium business demand is rock bottom which jfk-lax/SFO needs
 
User avatar
jfklganyc
Posts: 6142
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 2:31 pm

Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Thu Oct 15, 2020 1:49 pm

STT757 wrote:
slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
Just some facts for the people who still think its 2019:

Untied is still losing $25 million a day right now
They just lost 1.8 billion dollars Q3
Cash preservation is key to their survival and they continue to take on debt and loans using mileage plus and other assets to try to ride this out

The reason their loses haven't been worse is they have really reduced their flights and crew so much. They are not in a cash position to launch 15x very fuel thirsty 752s out of JFK on long transcons. United simply can't afford that kind of cash drain anytime soon and there isn't any demand to support that.


Have you seen all the new routes United announced,

San Francisco-Bangalore, Chicago-New Delhi, Newark-Johannesburg, Washington Dulles-Accra, Washington Dulles-Lagos, Newark-Maui, Chicago-Tel Aviv, Chicago-Kona.

https://hub.united.com/2020-09-09-united-airlines-strengthens-global-network-adding-new-nonstops-to-africa-india-and-hawaii-2647535777.html

Plus all the new flights to Florida from LaGuardia, Milwaukee, Indianapolis, Columbus, Pittsburgh, Boston etc..

https://hub.united.com/2020-08-12-adjusting-to-customer-demand-united-adds-new-nonstop-service-to-florida-2646962841.html

With all that in mind it's curious why you feel so strongly that adding lets say five daily JFK-SFO flights would somehow bankrupt the company? United, nor American, nor Delta have even declared bankruptcy yet. Keep in mind that pre merger United was in bankruptcy for SEVEN YEARS! And during those seven years they added new flights and destinations. We have a long tough slog to get through this pandemic, my strong belief is that whom ever wins the Presidential election more economic support will be coming for the carriers. The carriers will still shrink, and there's still more rough road but I predict they will receive aid to carry them through until 2022 without any of the big three declaring bankruptcy.

The 752s are paid for and fuel is cheap, plus United is one of if not the largest tenant of the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey and pays a substantial amount to the agency each year in terms of rent and fees. If United asks the Port Authority will find a way to accommodate them at Kennedy, especially when so many international carriers have suspended service.


I want to clarify something that gets glossed over.

For all the new destinations announced, they and every airline is flying less than half their capacity.

No one is expanding anywhere now or in the immediate future. They are just reshuffling capacity to try to get through a bad time.

Unless something changes, little to none of UAs new international cities will fly as scheduled.
 
codc10
Posts: 2926
Joined: Sat Jul 08, 2000 7:18 am

Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Thu Oct 15, 2020 3:15 pm

In the earnings call, Kirby just said UA has been working to get back into JFK for a while, and sees an opportunity to do so given COVID-19. LAX/SFO ("transcons") are specifically mentioned.

It's about the most definitive statement possible, short of a service announcement.
 
EssentialBusDC
Posts: 137
Joined: Sun Jan 15, 2017 3:06 am

Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Thu Oct 15, 2020 4:20 pm

STT757 wrote:
slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
Just some facts for the people who still think its 2019:

Untied is still losing $25 million a day right now
They just lost 1.8 billion dollars Q3
Cash preservation is key to their survival and they continue to take on debt and loans using mileage plus and other assets to try to ride this out

The reason their loses haven't been worse is they have really reduced their flights and crew so much. They are not in a cash position to launch 15x very fuel thirsty 752s out of JFK on long transcons. United simply can't afford that kind of cash drain anytime soon and there isn't any demand to support that.


Have you seen all the new routes United announced,

San Francisco-Bangalore, Chicago-New Delhi, Newark-Johannesburg, Washington Dulles-Accra, Washington Dulles-Lagos, Newark-Maui, Chicago-Tel Aviv, Chicago-Kona.

https://hub.united.com/2020-09-09-united-airlines-strengthens-global-network-adding-new-nonstops-to-africa-india-and-hawaii-2647535777.html

Plus all the new flights to Florida from LaGuardia, Milwaukee, Indianapolis, Columbus, Pittsburgh, Boston etc..

https://hub.united.com/2020-08-12-adjusting-to-customer-demand-united-adds-new-nonstop-service-to-florida-2646962841.html

With all that in mind it's curious why you feel so strongly that adding lets say five daily JFK-SFO flights would somehow bankrupt the company? United, nor American, nor Delta have even declared bankruptcy yet. Keep in mind that pre merger United was in bankruptcy for SEVEN YEARS! And during those seven years they added new flights and destinations. We have a long tough slog to get through this pandemic, my strong belief is that whom ever wins the Presidential election more economic support will be coming for the carriers. The carriers will still shrink, and there's still more rough road but I predict they will receive aid to carry them through until 2022 without any of the big three declaring bankruptcy.

The 752s are paid for and fuel is cheap, plus United is one of if not the largest tenant of the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey and pays a substantial amount to the agency each year in terms of rent and fees. If United asks the Port Authority will find a way to accommodate them at Kennedy, especially when so many international carriers have suspended service.



Point of information.

United filed for Bankruptcy on Dec 9, 2002 and exited on February 2, 2006. Not anywhere close to seven years.
 
jayunited
Posts: 3101
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:03 am

Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Thu Oct 15, 2020 7:55 pm

jetmatt777 wrote:
We dont even have confirmation that UA is going to JFK, and people are already passing their own speculation as fact.


Actually UA employees who just watched today's employees only earning live event just got their confirmation from Scott Kirby himself.

Kirby didn't give much details on to say UA is currently in negotiations to get back into to JFK in a meaningful way. He did say this is not just United Airlines looking for a way to make money during the pandemic but he wants back in at JFK long term. He asked employees for their patience and hopefully there will be something to announce but no timeframe was given for when a concrete announcement will be made.

But this is no longer rumor UA is currently in negotiations to get back into JFK. I guess the next step depends on how those negotiations turn out.

I wish I could post the entire employee virtual event but I can't. We all will just have to stay tune and wait to see how this all plays out.

Many people have already highlighted the issues UA is up against trying to get back into JFK. My guess is these issues and more are being discussed in these negotiations. The fact that there was no time frame given leads me to believe getting UA back into JFK will probably not be as easy as WN getting into ORD and it may or may not happen in 2021.
 
tphuang
Posts: 5698
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Thu Oct 15, 2020 8:20 pm

Based on what they said, I'm expecting somewhere close to a 15 to 20 flight operation with flights to LAX/SFO and maybe IAD/IAH. That type of operation will require quite a bit of gate and terminal space. I would imagine that's why Kirby thinks it will take a while to work things out with Port Aurhority. I would imagine UA wants a permanent situation rather than just move in to T7 for a year or so and then having to find another home. Without know how committed each terminal operators are toward the JFK redevelopment plan, Port Authority probably can't give UA a firm answer on where they'd operate out of.
 
bpat777
Posts: 698
Joined: Sun Nov 28, 1999 8:21 am

Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Thu Oct 15, 2020 9:09 pm

FWIW, I just now overheard UA employees mentioning that UA will be in Terminal 1 at JFK.
 
jayunited
Posts: 3101
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:03 am

Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Thu Oct 15, 2020 9:53 pm

bpat777 wrote:
FWIW, I just now overheard UA employees mentioning that UA will be in Terminal 1 at JFK.



That is pure rumor Kirby gave no specific details except to say United is in negotiations to get back into JFK. He wouldn't even commit to the 2021 timeframe he simply told employees to stay tuned.

People are jumping ahead of themselves put unsubstantiated rumors out there that have no foundation or connection to the truth.

We all are just going to have to exercise patience and see how this all plays out.
 
User avatar
intotheair
Posts: 1907
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2014 12:49 pm

Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Thu Oct 15, 2020 10:33 pm

Ed Russell at TPG wrote up the bit about JFK at today's conference call. I didn't listen to the call as I normally would, but sounds like Kirby indicated that JFK will have transcons and flights to core hubs. I'm guessing that means at the very least SFO and LAX plus some combination of ORD/IAH/DEN.

https://thepointsguy.com/news/united-ai ... -jfk-2021/
300 319 320 321 332 333 345 346 380 717 733 734 735 73G 738 739 744 752 753 762 763 772 77W 788 789 CR2 CR7 CR9 CRK Q400 E175 DC10 MD82 MD90
AA AF AS AY AZ B6 BA BR DL F9 FI GA HA KF LH MI QX SK SN SQ UA US VY WN
 
acavpics
Posts: 508
Joined: Thu Dec 20, 2018 2:54 am

Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Thu Oct 15, 2020 11:11 pm

I would guess 3-4 daily to LAX and SFO on 737-MAX 9 (Assuming it comes back into service some time next year) - And MAYBE 1-2 daily DEN and IAH if there is enough O&D traffic from Brooklyn/Queens/Long Island to those cities.

I think ORD and IAD will continue to have shuttle flights to EWR and LGA.
 
Robert1010
Posts: 186
Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2016 4:23 pm

Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Fri Oct 16, 2020 12:04 am

I just saw this post and ask myself Why? So they can get their ass kicked there too!
 
Cointrin330
Posts: 2268
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 12:23 pm

Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Fri Oct 16, 2020 12:17 am

bpat777 wrote:
FWIW, I just now overheard UA employees mentioning that UA will be in Terminal 1 at JFK.


That makes sense, since LH is UA's biggest *A partner and can leverage the LH lounge set up there, but it's an awful terminal, bursting at the seams, though not right now, given the hard drop in travel. There is really not a lot of choice or options for UA. T2 is closed. T4 would be the only other viable option and it is not ideal. T5 is a non-starter, since B6 owns it. T7 is to be demolished and T8, while there might be room, I just don't see AA letting them in.
 
United857
Posts: 117
Joined: Fri Dec 18, 2015 12:37 am

Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Fri Oct 16, 2020 12:28 am

Cointrin330 wrote:
bpat777 wrote:
FWIW, I just now overheard UA employees mentioning that UA will be in Terminal 1 at JFK.


That makes sense, since LH is UA's biggest *A partner and can leverage the LH lounge set up there, but it's an awful terminal, bursting at the seams, though not right now, given the hard drop in travel. There is really not a lot of choice or options for UA. T2 is closed. T4 would be the only other viable option and it is not ideal. T5 is a non-starter, since B6 owns it. T7 is to be demolished and T8, while there might be room, I just don't see AA letting them in.

If that's the case, they must be planning pretty big modifications to the arrivals level of T1. As it currently stands, there is no domestic baggage claim. All the baggage claim carousels are located in the customs hall.
A319 A320 A321 A333 A343 A346 A388 B712 B733 B737 B738 B739 B744 B748 B752 B764 B772 B77L B77W B788 B789 CRJ2 E145 E75S E75L E190 MD88 MD90
AA AC B6 CA CX CZ DL EK FM HU JL KA LH LX MU NH NK TK UA US
 
User avatar
KLMatSJC
Posts: 802
Joined: Sat Oct 02, 2010 1:16 am

Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Fri Oct 16, 2020 12:31 am

acavpics wrote:
I would guess 3-4 daily to LAX and SFO on 737-MAX 9 (Assuming it comes back into service some time next year)

I highly doubt that. It will almost certainly be with a premium product, either 737 MAX 10, 757-200, or widebody.
A318/19/20/21/21N A332/3 A343/5 A388 B712 B722 B732/3/4/7/8/9/9ER B744/4M B752/3 B762ER/3/3ER/4ER B772/E/L/W B788 CRJ2/7/9 Q400 EMB-120 ERJ-135/140/145/145XR/175 DC-10-10 MD-82/83/88/90

Long Live the Tulip, Cactus, and Redwood
 
gwrudolph
Posts: 441
Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2008 3:46 pm

Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Fri Oct 16, 2020 12:52 am

Robert1010 wrote:
I just saw this post and ask myself Why? So they can get their ass kicked there too!


Huh?!?!?!
 
micstatic
Posts: 777
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2001 10:07 pm

Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Fri Oct 16, 2020 12:52 am

A 737 is not premium
S340,DH8,AT7,CR2/7,E135/45/170/190,319,320,717,732,733,734,735,737,738,744,752,762,763,764,772,M80,M90
 
JFKalumni
Posts: 211
Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2019 5:45 pm

Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Fri Oct 16, 2020 1:05 am

United857 wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
bpat777 wrote:
FWIW, I just now overheard UA employees mentioning that UA will be in Terminal 1 at JFK.


That makes sense, since LH is UA's biggest *A partner and can leverage the LH lounge set up there, but it's an awful terminal, bursting at the seams, though not right now, given the hard drop in travel. There is really not a lot of choice or options for UA. T2 is closed. T4 would be the only other viable option and it is not ideal. T5 is a non-starter, since B6 owns it. T7 is to be demolished and T8, while there might be room, I just don't see AA letting them in.

If that's the case, they must be planning pretty big modifications to the arrivals level of T1. As it currently stands, there is no domestic baggage claim. All the baggage claim carousels are located in the customs hall.


Not only the baggage claim but gate availability as well. T1 is a ghost town from 1:00am until 9:00am. Then you have to deal with the morning Asia bank. Around 12:30pm T1 switches to European arrival mode for Lufthansa, Air France, etc. Late afternoon is rush hour to Europe and late evening is the middle eastern bank.

It’s going to be difficult at T1 after 12:00 noon. My money is on T4
 
strfyr51
Posts: 5106
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:04 pm

Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Fri Oct 16, 2020 1:12 am

sjones1975 wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
UA would also do well to market any transcons out of JFK as a way to connect on the best network among the US carriers to Asia and Oceania.


Under that strategy (at least the Asia part), United would be chasing the premium NY business community. But I'd think it would be difficult for UA with JFK-SFO/LAX/ORD-Asia to compete with first-tier Asian carriers (KE, NH, etc.) who can fly those New Yorkers nonstop to Asia.

well? Let's look at that. Are they competing with JAL. Asiana KAL ,Singapore, Qantas Air China, China Eastern, China Southern and China Air right now? Yes! and they have been for Years. United hasn't run from these carriers at any time in the past. Why would they Now? United flies into their Back Yard and handles business. Why would you suggest that flying into JFK might affect their business? JFK is but another point on the Map. United doesn't HAVE to strip EWR in any manner to also serve JFK. JFK would more than likely start as a tag end flight from the western hubs connecting to Star Alliance partners. And wjen the service has been established? Then they canb add flights to wherever they need to, Like LHR, FRA, CDG until they can build a portfolio of destinations that duplicare the destinations served out of EWR and IAD.
 
jayunited
Posts: 3101
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:03 am

Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Fri Oct 16, 2020 12:28 pm

micstatic wrote:
A 737 is not premium



United for sure will have all access to the aisle lie flat seating on their MAX10 product.

Both employees and the media have continually asked if these aircraft will have UA's premium plus product in addition to economy plus, so far UA refuses to give an answer to this question.

United has confirmed MAX10s will have PTVs, AVOD, Wifi, and power outlets at every seat.

The interior of UA's MAX10s that will be deployed on our NYC-SFO/LAX and BOS-SFO perhaps BOS-LAX will have a premium layout.

Prior to COVID the plan was to use this aircraft in this layout on select coast to coast flights out of EWR, IAD, BOS, SEA, SFO, and LAX. However UA in 2021 will only take delivery of 40-45 737MAXs this includes 8s, 9s and 10s. The remainder of our MAX order has been deferred to a future date.

If UA does get back into JFK we will be using a premium product on our transcon routes.
Last edited by jayunited on Fri Oct 16, 2020 12:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Pinto
Posts: 64
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2018 11:30 pm

Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Fri Oct 16, 2020 12:40 pm

jayunited wrote:
micstatic wrote:
A 737 is not premium



United for sure will have all access to the aisle lie flat seating on their MAX10 product.

Both employees and the media have continually asked if these aircraft will have UA's premium plus product in addition to economy plus, so far UA refuses to give an answer to this question.

United has confirmed MAX10s will have PTVs, AVOD, Wifi, and power outlets at ever seat.

The interior of UA's MAX10s that will be deployed on our NYC-SFO/LAX and BOS-SFO perhaps BOS-LAX will have a premium layout.

Prior to COVID the plan was to use this aircraft in this layout on select coast to coast flights out of EWR, IAD, BOS, SEA, SFO, and LAX. However UA in 2021 will only take delivery of 40-45 737MAXs this includes 8s, 9s and 10s. The remainder of our MAX order has been deferred to a future date.

If UA does get back into JFK we will be using a premium product on our transcon routes.


I thought they confiremd they would have lifeflats seats, but they didnt say the type or number of them.
 
jayunited
Posts: 3101
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:03 am

Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Fri Oct 16, 2020 12:49 pm

Pinto wrote:
jayunited wrote:
micstatic wrote:
A 737 is not premium



United for sure will have all access to the aisle lie flat seating on their MAX10 product.

Both employees and the media have continually asked if these aircraft will have UA's premium plus product in addition to economy plus, so far UA refuses to give an answer to this question.

United has confirmed MAX10s will have PTVs, AVOD, Wifi, and power outlets at ever seat.

The interior of UA's MAX10s that will be deployed on our NYC-SFO/LAX and BOS-SFO perhaps BOS-LAX will have a premium layout.

Prior to COVID the plan was to use this aircraft in this layout on select coast to coast flights out of EWR, IAD, BOS, SEA, SFO, and LAX. However UA in 2021 will only take delivery of 40-45 737MAXs this includes 8s, 9s and 10s. The remainder of our MAX order has been deferred to a future date.

If UA does get back into JFK we will be using a premium product on our transcon routes.


I thought they confiremd they would have lifeflats seats, but they didnt say the type or number of them.


I think you make have over looked the very first sentence in my post which states United for sure will have all access to the aisle lie flat seating on their MAX10s.

Our premium plus product is an economy product which for now can be found on all our 77Ws, all of our77Es (currently in passenger service), all of our 78Xs and on some of our 788/789s.

United has not confirmed if premium plus will be on our MAX10 fleet.
 
User avatar
jetblastdubai
Posts: 1994
Joined: Sun Aug 18, 2013 10:23 am

Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Fri Oct 16, 2020 1:12 pm

Just an observation...there seems to be a lot of negative blow-back about UA potentially returning to a major airport that they previously served meanwhile on the other side of a-net, WN is simply brilliant for planning to return to IAH, an airport they previously served plus add new service to highly-competitive ORD...and airport they never served.
 
User avatar
jfklganyc
Posts: 6142
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 2:31 pm

Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Fri Oct 16, 2020 1:34 pm

I predict unused gates in terminal 8 will go to United.

There just has to be a minimum use in the lease...and AA isnt meeting it. Hasnt in years

For United keep in mind the two West Coast hubs didn’t work for them a few years ago. It was a loser. Don’t expect that to be mimicked in return. I expect a more robust operation

They need to be more relevant than last time
 
User avatar
jetblastdubai
Posts: 1994
Joined: Sun Aug 18, 2013 10:23 am

Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Fri Oct 16, 2020 2:17 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
I predict unused gates in terminal 8 will go to United.

For United keep in mind the two West Coast hubs didn’t work for them a few years ago. It was a loser. Don’t expect that to be mimicked in return. I expect a more robust operation

They need to be more relevant than last time


If I'm not mistaken, years ago, when UA left JFK, they had a severe A/C shortage to operate the TRANCONS out of both JFK and EWR. EWR was a mish-mash of A/C while Kennedy still maintained the 757 PS fleet. Additionally, it was posted (not verified) on here that UA had in the neighborhood of 300 employees at JFK and that was obviously far too many to support just the LAX/SFO flights. Most likely left over from when UA had a lot more service out of Kennedy. NRT, EZE, LHR, CCS etc. Closing JFK and moving assets to EWR might have been a short-term economical fix at the time.

The LAX/SFO flights might have been running in the black but the airport, overall might have been a drag on the bottom line.
 
JFKalumni
Posts: 211
Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2019 5:45 pm

Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Fri Oct 16, 2020 3:09 pm

jetblastdubai wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
I predict unused gates in terminal 8 will go to United.

For United keep in mind the two West Coast hubs didn’t work for them a few years ago. It was a loser. Don’t expect that to be mimicked in return. I expect a more robust operation

They need to be more relevant than last time


If I'm not mistaken, years ago, when UA left JFK, they had a severe A/C shortage to operate the TRANCONS out of both JFK and EWR. EWR was a mish-mash of A/C while Kennedy still maintained the 757 PS fleet. Additionally, it was posted (not verified) on here that UA had in the neighborhood of 300 employees at JFK and that was obviously far too many to support just the LAX/SFO flights. Most likely left over from when UA had a lot more service out of Kennedy. NRT, EZE, LHR, CCS etc. Closing JFK and moving assets to EWR might have been a short-term economical fix at the time.

The LAX/SFO flights might have been running in the black but the airport, overall might have been a drag on the bottom line.


Yes we had a shortage of aircraft from time to time at JFK. Ship 5317,5325,5332,5708,5760,5354 and 5355 needed to be replaced. The Hawaii ETOPS PW birds were transferred to JFK as replacements. The sub CO 757’s were routed EWR-LAX-JFK-LAX-EWR. Sometimes the first flight of the morning, either UA5 to SFO or UA891 to LAX would depart as a 767-300 or 400ER.
 
codc10
Posts: 2926
Joined: Sat Jul 08, 2000 7:18 am

Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Fri Oct 16, 2020 3:15 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
I predict unused gates in terminal 8 will go to United.

There just has to be a minimum use in the lease...and AA isnt meeting it. Hasnt in years

For United keep in mind the two West Coast hubs didn’t work for them a few years ago. It was a loser. Don’t expect that to be mimicked in return. I expect a more robust operation

They need to be more relevant than last time


AA is exclusively in possession of T8 pursuant to long-term lease with the PANYNJ, and the Port cannot force AA to cede space in its own building to another airline. All gates on T8 are AA exclusive and there are no usage requirements, so any of the airlines in T8 are there because AA wants them there, or is willing to lease them space. So, for United to go into T8, it would have to be by agreement with AA, which isn't happening. It's analogous to B6 at T5, or UA at EWR Terminal C.

On the other hand, there is presently more than sufficient common-use gate space in T4 (especially in T4A) which is set up for both domestic and international operations. IAT (T4 operator) isn't going to sit around and wait for airlines to return to 2019 levels... if there is unused capacity, no doubt it will move aggressively to re-let or substitute in a new entrant, like United. And, to your point, T4 in its entirety is common-use, and while many are "preferential use" Delta, some are not, and if they aren't being fully used by current tenants, they are by definition up for grabs. Dollars to donuts, United will be in T4, unless the logistics for (regular/permanent) domestic arrivals can be resolved at T1.
 
JFKalumni
Posts: 211
Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2019 5:45 pm

Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Fri Oct 16, 2020 5:35 pm

Question:

Back in the day, even after the merger, portions of the JFK departures were tagged through flights.

UA 891 JFK-LAX-NRT
UA 893 JFK-SFO-ICN
UA 869 JFK-SFO-SYD
UA839 JFK-LAX-SYD/MEL

There’s another flight JFK-SFO-OGG but I can’t remember the flight number.

This alone would be great to attract all of our city and Long Island passengers who need to travel overseas and do not wish to travel to EWR. Even with EWR across the river, passengers were still booking one stop flights to Asia and Australia.

Will this work again ???
 
User avatar
usdcaguy
Posts: 1559
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2004 12:41 pm

Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Fri Oct 16, 2020 8:01 pm

airzim wrote:
DoctorVenkman wrote:
CALMSP wrote:

how many more options of trains does JFK have over EWR? Am I missing something? AirTrain to rail that takes you to Manhattan.


JFK also has access to the A, E and J subway trains in addition to the LIRR. Very convenient if you're going somewhere in BK or Queens. If you're going to Manhattan the LIRR is generally better.

EWR only has the NJ Transit into Penn Station as a direct rail option. If you want to get on the PATH you need to transfer at Newark Penn Station.


I'm always curious about the discussion on the rail options from JFK and EWR. I've taken both and they are both terrible. 1) No airport supports a single train option to the City. The connections with bags plus waiting mostly outweigh any benefits. Plus from JFK you need to buy two tickets unless you're getting on the subway with a Metrocard. NJTransit ticket from EWR is a single ticket, but not if you're connecting to the PATH. 2) The wait, if you land at EWR in the middle of the off peak periods, you can wait up till 45 min to an hour in some cases. JFK isn't as bad not still not great. 3) schelping bags through the NY mass transit system generally stinks. I can't see anyone taking the trains unless you're trying to save money. An UberX especially if you're sharing is way faster and likely cheaper.


There are plenty of people who take the AirTrain and subway from JFK, though it’s mostly people with small rollaboards and backpacks. It is not nice to be crammed in the subway with a bag and no racks, but it’s doable. The subway also has the advantage of getting you to JFK on schedule during rush hour, which is iffy with a car. I’d prefer to take the LIRR personally, but Penn Station is not convenient to a lot of things in Manhattan.
 
JFKalumni
Posts: 211
Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2019 5:45 pm

Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Fri Oct 16, 2020 8:20 pm

usdcaguy wrote:
airzim wrote:
DoctorVenkman wrote:

JFK also has access to the A, E and J subway trains in addition to the LIRR. Very convenient if you're going somewhere in BK or Queens. If you're going to Manhattan the LIRR is generally better.

EWR only has the NJ Transit into Penn Station as a direct rail option. If you want to get on the PATH you need to transfer at Newark Penn Station.


I'm always curious about the discussion on the rail options from JFK and EWR. I've taken both and they are both terrible. 1) No airport supports a single train option to the City. The connections with bags plus waiting mostly outweigh any benefits. Plus from JFK you need to buy two tickets unless you're getting on the subway with a Metrocard. NJTransit ticket from EWR is a single ticket, but not if you're connecting to the PATH. 2) The wait, if you land at EWR in the middle of the off peak periods, you can wait up till 45 min to an hour in some cases. JFK isn't as bad not still not great. 3) schelping bags through the NY mass transit system generally stinks. I can't see anyone taking the trains unless you're trying to save money. An UberX especially if you're sharing is way faster and likely cheaper.


There are plenty of people who take the AirTrain and subway from JFK, though it’s mostly people with small rollaboards and backpacks. It is not nice to be crammed in the subway with a bag and no racks, but it’s doable. The subway also has the advantage of getting you to JFK on schedule during rush hour, which is iffy with a car. I’d prefer to take the LIRR personally, but Penn Station is not convenient to a lot of things in Manhattan.


EWR will be the best option if the Path train extension comes to fruition. The trip from Manhattan to JFK takes too long. The E train runs express but it’s guaranteed to be standing room only, the A train will take you on a 90 minute tour of BED STUY, East NY, and South Ozone park before you even reach the Airtrain station.

The Q10 and B15 buses should just be listed as employees only because you’ll be waiting a long time just to get onboard the bus.

The Q3 bus is of no help unless you are transferring from Long Island’s Nice buses along Hillside Avenue or you live along the route in Hollis or Springfield gardens.

The only good travel option is the LIRR to Jamaica / Airtrain. Shouldn’t surprise anyone that this option is the most expensive via public transit.
 
User avatar
jfklganyc
Posts: 6142
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 2:31 pm

Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Sat Oct 17, 2020 12:01 pm

codc10 wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
I predict unused gates in terminal 8 will go to United.

There just has to be a minimum use in the lease...and AA isnt meeting it. Hasnt in years

For United keep in mind the two West Coast hubs didn’t work for them a few years ago. It was a loser. Don’t expect that to be mimicked in return. I expect a more robust operation

They need to be more relevant than last time


AA is exclusively in possession of T8 pursuant to long-term lease with the PANYNJ, and the Port cannot force AA to cede space in its own building to another airline. All gates on T8 are AA exclusive and there are no usage requirements, so any of the airlines in T8 are there because AA wants them there, or is willing to lease them space. So, for United to go into T8, it would have to be by agreement with AA, which isn't happening. It's analogous to B6 at T5, or UA at EWR Terminal C.

On the other hand, there is presently more than sufficient common-use gate space in T4 (especially in T4A) which is set up for both domestic and international operations. IAT (T4 operator) isn't going to sit around and wait for airlines to return to 2019 levels... if there is unused capacity, no doubt it will move aggressively to re-let or substitute in a new entrant, like United. And, to your point, T4 in its entirety is common-use, and while many are "preferential use" Delta, some are not, and if they aren't being fully used by current tenants, they are by definition up for grabs. Dollars to donuts, United will be in T4, unless the logistics for (regular/permanent) domestic arrivals can be resolved at T1.



You have no idea what is happening so stop posting like you do. None of us know what internal discussions are happening. If we did, we wouldnt post it here.

From a practical sense:

AA has more gates than flights at the moment.
AA will have more gates than needed looking forward in a post covid world

From a legal sense:

There is not a lease in the world without provisions. For instance, when I worked at AMR and they shrunk T8 from close to 60 gates to the current 37, they added two RJ concourses with 9 gates that were never planned or needed. They have been underused since. Why?

The PA made them hit 37 gates...exactly 2/3 of their original plan.

If I were a betting man, there is a minimum use provision in their lease. You can’t have the rest of the airport bursting at the seams and an empty terminal.

Furthermore, the slots UA is taking will likely come from AA. Who else has 15-20 slots at prime time sitting around?

Ultimately, the PA is an airport operator. Every PFC, every landing fee, every gate fee, concession income...they get a cut of to fund their operation.

They couldnt care less the name on the side of the plane leaving a tire mark on the runway.

Furthermore, in terms of loyalty, B6 DL and TOGA are pouring billions into JFK over the next decade (unless covid changes that). AA not so much. The unfinished PAAlace will stay unfinished...20 years later
 
codc10
Posts: 2926
Joined: Sat Jul 08, 2000 7:18 am

Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Sat Oct 17, 2020 12:45 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
codc10 wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
I predict unused gates in terminal 8 will go to United.

There just has to be a minimum use in the lease...and AA isnt meeting it. Hasnt in years

For United keep in mind the two West Coast hubs didn’t work for them a few years ago. It was a loser. Don’t expect that to be mimicked in return. I expect a more robust operation

They need to be more relevant than last time


AA is exclusively in possession of T8 pursuant to long-term lease with the PANYNJ, and the Port cannot force AA to cede space in its own building to another airline. All gates on T8 are AA exclusive and there are no usage requirements, so any of the airlines in T8 are there because AA wants them there, or is willing to lease them space. So, for United to go into T8, it would have to be by agreement with AA, which isn't happening. It's analogous to B6 at T5, or UA at EWR Terminal C.

On the other hand, there is presently more than sufficient common-use gate space in T4 (especially in T4A) which is set up for both domestic and international operations. IAT (T4 operator) isn't going to sit around and wait for airlines to return to 2019 levels... if there is unused capacity, no doubt it will move aggressively to re-let or substitute in a new entrant, like United. And, to your point, T4 in its entirety is common-use, and while many are "preferential use" Delta, some are not, and if they aren't being fully used by current tenants, they are by definition up for grabs. Dollars to donuts, United will be in T4, unless the logistics for (regular/permanent) domestic arrivals can be resolved at T1.



You have no idea what is happening so stop posting like you do. None of us know what internal discussions are happening. If we did, we wouldnt post it here.

From a practical sense:

AA has more gates than flights at the moment.
AA will have more gates than needed looking forward in a post covid world

From a legal sense:

There is not a lease in the world without provisions. For instance, when I worked at AMR and they shrunk T8 from close to 60 gates to the current 37, they added two RJ concourses with 9 gates that were never planned or needed. They have been underused since. Why?

The PA made them hit 37 gates...exactly 2/3 of their original plan.

If I were a betting man, there is a minimum use provision in their lease. You can’t have the rest of the airport bursting at the seams and an empty terminal.

Furthermore, the slots UA is taking will likely come from AA. Who else has 15-20 slots at prime time sitting around?

Ultimately, the PA is an airport operator. Every PFC, every landing fee, every gate fee, concession income...they get a cut of to fund their operation.

They couldnt care less the name on the side of the plane leaving a tire mark on the runway.

Furthermore, in terms of loyalty, B6 DL and TOGA are pouring billions into JFK over the next decade (unless covid changes that). AA not so much. The unfinished PAAlace will stay unfinished...20 years later


Have you read AA’s lease with the PANYNJ? I have... because it’s part of what I do for a living. And it’s sort of ironic that you spout off on the issue from a “legal sense”, because that’s ***exactly*** what I’m talking about. There’s nothing proprietary about the fact that Terminal 8 is an AA-exclusive facility in a “legal sense”, and there are no use requirements for gates like there are at T4, which is a common-use terminal. Full stop. It doesn’t exist.

The Port cannot unilaterally force AA to lease space to a competitor unless the lease is renegotiated. It is certainly possible that it might approach AA to do so, but AA is under no obligation to give up its space unless it is actively trying to reduce its rent exposure... which it may very well be. There’s nothing stopping UAL from approaching AA (or another incumbent with exclusive space, like DL or B6) to lease space independently, but that might be the first time in airline history a competitor voluntarily facilitates the entry of an airline whose only purpose for returning to the market is to reclaim high value traffic. In other words, I’m not betting on that... and if you’re a self-described betting man, would you?

The Port has been trying to get away from airline exclusive leases for a while, and gate squatting by incumbent airlines stifling competition is precisely the reason. The most recent PANYNJ airport projects have been CUTE with “preferential access” to certain airlines provided activity thresholds are met. In those cases, the Port can actually reallocate gates that aren’t being adequately used by their tenant carrier for a period of time. That’s what you’re advocating from a “practical sense”, and I’m trying to educate you on the fact that such a concept exists, but it is not the case at T8, from a “legal sense.”

Stop being so arrogant; you don’t have a reason to be.
 
WA707atMSP
Posts: 1940
Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2006 8:16 pm

Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Tue Oct 20, 2020 11:21 am

There IS one scenario where AA could be forced to give UA access to T8: if AA files for bankruptcy.

Once an airline is in Chapter XI, the Port Authority, or third parties, could force them to relinquish assets and renegotiate contracts.

If the airlines don't get another bailout from the US government and / or if air travel demand over the next 6 to 9 months is as weak as many forecasters expect, I think it's likely that AA, UA, and (if things get really bad) maybe even DL, will have to file for bankruptcy.

I'm sure the strategic planning departments at all of the airlines are reviewing what assets they would fight to keep and what assets they'd be willing to relinquish if their company files Chapter XI. They're also putting together "wish lists" of their competitors' assets they'd be interested in pursuing if their competitors file Chapter XI.
 
CaliguyNYC
Posts: 1260
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2016 7:27 pm

Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Tue Oct 20, 2020 11:47 am

jfklganyc wrote:
I predict unused gates in terminal 8 will go to United.

There just has to be a minimum use in the lease...and AA isnt meeting it. Hasnt in years

For United keep in mind the two West Coast hubs didn’t work for them a few years ago. It was a loser. Don’t expect that to be mimicked in return. I expect a more robust operation

They need to be more relevant than last time


As others have said, the AA terminal is owned by AA. This is a unique situation that American airports did (letting airlines own terminals and gates). So doubtful the PA can force AA. That said, what ever rules are in the lease (call them minor irritants for AA) would probably mean at most AA has to accept a few flights. I don’t see AA welcoming UA. They would probably take BA or other international airlines first. UA’s biggest issue is going to be evening departures during the prime EU departures. THe PA probably won’t fight the fight for gate space during those times because they would probably rather want international flights to come back to their previous slots and airlines that own gates/terminals probably don’t want airlines that need a full day’s worth of flights. Look at Norwegian in T1 as an example (I think they had really late departures)
 
User avatar
jfklganyc
Posts: 6142
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 2:31 pm

Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Wed Oct 21, 2020 5:40 pm

CaliguyNYC wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
I predict unused gates in terminal 8 will go to United.

There just has to be a minimum use in the lease...and AA isnt meeting it. Hasnt in years

For United keep in mind the two West Coast hubs didn’t work for them a few years ago. It was a loser. Don’t expect that to be mimicked in return. I expect a more robust operation

They need to be more relevant than last time


As others have said, the AA terminal is owned by AA. This is a unique situation that American airports did (letting airlines own terminals and gates). So doubtful the PA can force AA. That said, what ever rules are in the lease (call them minor irritants for AA) would probably mean at most AA has to accept a few flights. I don’t see AA welcoming UA. They would probably take BA or other international airlines first. UA’s biggest issue is going to be evening departures during the prime EU departures. THe PA probably won’t fight the fight for gate space during those times because they would probably rather want international flights to come back to their previous slots and airlines that own gates/terminals probably don’t want airlines that need a full day’s worth of flights. Look at Norwegian in T1 as an example (I think they had really late departures)


Just to clarify, AA does not own T8. They are a lease holder, not an owner
 
User avatar
STT757
Posts: 14171
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2000 1:14 am

Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Thu Oct 22, 2020 1:27 pm

It's possible AA would lease both the slots and gates to UA, if AA is not going to grow or even maintain their previous service levels they still need to pay same rent.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
ldvaviation
Posts: 1259
Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2008 7:21 pm

Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Thu Oct 22, 2020 6:46 pm

jfklganyc wrote:

Just to clarify, AA does not own T8. They are a lease holder, not an owner


And?

This is a very, very old lease. It does not contain a gate-usage provision.

In order to add a gate-usage provision, the PA would have to pay the outstanding debt on the terminal, including any debt related to the ongoing renovation.
 
User avatar
jfklganyc
Posts: 6142
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 2:31 pm

Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Thu Oct 22, 2020 8:34 pm

ldvaviation wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:

Just to clarify, AA does not own T8. They are a lease holder, not an owner


And?

This is a very, very old lease. It does not contain a gate-usage provision.

In order to add a gate-usage provision, the PA would have to pay the outstanding debt on the terminal, including any debt related to the ongoing renovation.


This terminal is barely 20 years old.
 
UA857
Posts: 568
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2017 3:41 am

Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Thu Oct 22, 2020 8:53 pm

A little off topic but why didn't UA install Polaris on its 752 fleet would installing Polaris on the 752 allow UA to remain competitive on JFK-SFO/LAX?
 
CALMSP
Posts: 3454
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 3:18 am

Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Thu Oct 22, 2020 9:02 pm

UA857 wrote:
A little off topic but why didn't UA install Polaris on its 752 fleet would installing Polaris on the 752 allow UA to remain competitive on JFK-SFO/LAX?


probably b/c it would cut capacity drastically. The forward cabin would be reduced to 8 seats instead of the current 16, if you kept 16, you'd start to cut into the back cabin, which then was essentially the PS product. I don't think there would be such a large revenue loss or enough of a revenue gain to make that change.
 
User avatar
RyanairGuru
Posts: 8508
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 3:59 am

Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Thu Oct 22, 2020 11:54 pm

UA857 wrote:
A little off topic but why didn't UA install Polaris on its 752 fleet would installing Polaris on the 752 allow UA to remain competitive on JFK-SFO/LAX?


Other than AA first class (and note Business Class is 2-2) I’m not aware of any major carrier that has installed something close to all aisle access on a narrow body. Unfortunately the dimensions don’t really work, so it’s a very inefficient use of space. The closest we’ve come is 1-2/2-1 on the likes of JetBlue and TAP.

More specifically to United, the PS 757 are planned to be replaced with an all-new product on the 737-10, so it didn’t make sense to refurbish the 757s due their limited remaining service life.
Worked Hard, Flew Right
 
ldvaviation
Posts: 1259
Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2008 7:21 pm

Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Fri Oct 23, 2020 12:23 am

jfklganyc wrote:

This terminal is barely 20 years old.


It is an amended lease.

Terminal was completed in 2005.

Back then, airports traded "exclusive" use for not having to participate financially in terminal renovations/rebuilds.
 
UA857
Posts: 568
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2017 3:41 am

Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Fri Oct 23, 2020 12:38 am

RyanairGuru wrote:
UA857 wrote:
A little off topic but why didn't UA install Polaris on its 752 fleet would installing Polaris on the 752 allow UA to remain competitive on JFK-SFO/LAX?


Other than AA first class (and note Business Class is 2-2) I’m not aware of any major carrier that has installed something close to all aisle access on a narrow body. Unfortunately the dimensions don’t really work, so it’s a very inefficient use of space. The closest we’ve come is 1-2/2-1 on the likes of JetBlue and TAP.

More specifically to United, the PS 757 are planned to be replaced with an all-new product on the 737-10, so it didn’t make sense to refurbish the 757s due their limited remaining service life.


What would a Polaris configured 752 look like?
 
JFKalumni
Posts: 211
Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2019 5:45 pm

Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Fri Oct 23, 2020 5:50 pm

UA857 wrote:
RyanairGuru wrote:
UA857 wrote:
A little off topic but why didn't UA install Polaris on its 752 fleet would installing Polaris on the 752 allow UA to remain competitive on JFK-SFO/LAX?


Other than AA first class (and note Business Class is 2-2) I’m not aware of any major carrier that has installed something close to all aisle access on a narrow body. Unfortunately the dimensions don’t really work, so it’s a very inefficient use of space. The closest we’ve come is 1-2/2-1 on the likes of JetBlue and TAP.

More specifically to United, the PS 757 are planned to be replaced with an all-new product on the 737-10, so it didn’t make sense to refurbish the 757s due their limited remaining service life.


What would a Polaris configured 752 look like?


The original Premium Service fleet was 110 seats in a three class configuration. AA’s A321T’s had the same seat count and made a killing with revenue because UA was downgrading to two class 757 the same time AA was taking deliveries of the A321T. I would guess the 757’s may be outfitted with Polaris at 110 seats depending on dimensions and weight of the seats. I’m praying for a mix of 757’s and High J 767’s. A reconfigured 767-400ER would be perfect for such a small sub fleet.
 
tphuang
Posts: 5698
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Fri Oct 23, 2020 6:22 pm

JFKalumni wrote:
UA857 wrote:
RyanairGuru wrote:

Other than AA first class (and note Business Class is 2-2) I’m not aware of any major carrier that has installed something close to all aisle access on a narrow body. Unfortunately the dimensions don’t really work, so it’s a very inefficient use of space. The closest we’ve come is 1-2/2-1 on the likes of JetBlue and TAP.

More specifically to United, the PS 757 are planned to be replaced with an all-new product on the 737-10, so it didn’t make sense to refurbish the 757s due their limited remaining service life.


What would a Polaris configured 752 look like?


The original Premium Service fleet was 110 seats in a three class configuration. AA’s A321T’s had the same seat count and made a killing with revenue because UA was downgrading to two class 757 the same time AA was taking deliveries of the A321T. I would guess the 757’s may be outfitted with Polaris at 110 seats depending on dimensions and weight of the seats. I’m praying for a mix of 757’s and High J 767’s. A reconfigured 767-400ER would be perfect for such a small sub fleet.


In this environment? Have you noticed AA moved to 2 777s on JFK-LAX because they can't sell out their premium cabin on A321T? Have you seen where UA is pricing EWR-LAX?
 
JFKalumni
Posts: 211
Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2019 5:45 pm

Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Fri Oct 23, 2020 6:26 pm

tphuang wrote:
JFKalumni wrote:
UA857 wrote:

What would a Polaris configured 752 look like?


The original Premium Service fleet was 110 seats in a three class configuration. AA’s A321T’s had the same seat count and made a killing with revenue because UA was downgrading to two class 757 the same time AA was taking deliveries of the A321T. I would guess the 757’s may be outfitted with Polaris at 110 seats depending on dimensions and weight of the seats. I’m praying for a mix of 757’s and High J 767’s. A reconfigured 767-400ER would be perfect for such a small sub fleet.


In this environment? Have you noticed AA moved to 2 777s on JFK-LAX because they can't sell out their premium cabin on A321T? Have you seen where UA is pricing EWR-LAX?


You realize these are future plans. Everything is open for discussion and nothing is set in stone.
 
tphuang
Posts: 5698
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Fri Oct 23, 2020 6:32 pm

JFKalumni wrote:
tphuang wrote:
JFKalumni wrote:

The original Premium Service fleet was 110 seats in a three class configuration. AA’s A321T’s had the same seat count and made a killing with revenue because UA was downgrading to two class 757 the same time AA was taking deliveries of the A321T. I would guess the 757’s may be outfitted with Polaris at 110 seats depending on dimensions and weight of the seats. I’m praying for a mix of 757’s and High J 767’s. A reconfigured 767-400ER would be perfect for such a small sub fleet.


In this environment? Have you noticed AA moved to 2 777s on JFK-LAX because they can't sell out their premium cabin on A321T? Have you seen where UA is pricing EWR-LAX?


You realize these are future plans. Everything is open for discussion and nothing is set in stone.


Right and when is business traffic coming back? And how much longer is 752 staying in service?
 
JFKalumni
Posts: 211
Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2019 5:45 pm

Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Fri Oct 23, 2020 6:42 pm

tphuang wrote:
JFKalumni wrote:
tphuang wrote:

In this environment? Have you noticed AA moved to 2 777s on JFK-LAX because they can't sell out their premium cabin on A321T? Have you seen where UA is pricing EWR-LAX?


You realize these are future plans. Everything is open for discussion and nothing is set in stone.


Right and when is business traffic coming back? And how much longer is 752 staying in service?


Obviously they’re planning for a return of business traffic. UA’s bread and butter is business traffic either domestic or international. When I used to work at JFK the majority of our passengers were business and first customers. Obviously UA did they’re homework before making plans to return.
 
tphuang
Posts: 5698
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Fri Oct 23, 2020 6:44 pm

JFKalumni wrote:
tphuang wrote:
JFKalumni wrote:

You realize these are future plans. Everything is open for discussion and nothing is set in stone.


Right and when is business traffic coming back? And how much longer is 752 staying in service?


Obviously they’re planning for a return of business traffic. UA’s bread and butter is business traffic either domestic or international. When I used to work at JFK the majority of our passengers were business and first customers. Obviously UA did they’re homework before making plans to return.


Yes, I'm assuming UA did their homework. I just don't assume you have seen their projections. The fact that they retired 28J 757s tell me where they think the premium demand is at for the foreseeable future.
 
jayunited
Posts: 3101
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:03 am

Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Fri Oct 23, 2020 6:53 pm

tphuang wrote:
JFKalumni wrote:
tphuang wrote:

Right and when is business traffic coming back? And how much longer is 752 staying in service?


Obviously they’re planning for a return of business traffic. UA’s bread and butter is business traffic either domestic or international. When I used to work at JFK the majority of our passengers were business and first customers. Obviously UA did they’re homework before making plans to return.


Yes, I'm assuming UA did their homework. I just don't assume you have seen their projections. The fact that they retired 28J 757s tell me where they think the premium demand is at for the foreseeable future.


I think you are reading to much into the retirement of the PW 752s. Those aircraft had already been slated for retirement before COVID. If we go back to UA 2019 fleet plan the PW 752s which had the 28J seats were slated for retirement beginning in 2020. United did have a change of heart in 2019 and decided to keep the 7 oldest 763s around (only 1 has Polaris the remaining 6 still have diamond seats they are all in storage).

I'm bringing up the 7 oldest 763s because our 2018 fleet plan called for these frames to be retired but they were saved in 2019 while the plans for the PW 752s never changed. Those frames were leaving in 2020 COVID or no COVID.
 
JFKalumni
Posts: 211
Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2019 5:45 pm

Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Fri Oct 23, 2020 7:06 pm

jayunited wrote:
tphuang wrote:
JFKalumni wrote:

Obviously they’re planning for a return of business traffic. UA’s bread and butter is business traffic either domestic or international. When I used to work at JFK the majority of our passengers were business and first customers. Obviously UA did they’re homework before making plans to return.


Yes, I'm assuming UA did their homework. I just don't assume you have seen their projections. The fact that they retired 28J 757s tell me where they think the premium demand is at for the foreseeable future.


I think you are reading to much into the retirement of the PW 752s. Those aircraft had already been slated for retirement before COVID. If we go back to UA 2019 fleet plan the PW 752s which had the 28J seats were slated for retirement beginning in 2020. United did have a change of heart in 2019 and decided to keep the 7 oldest 763s around (only 1 has Polaris the remaining 6 still have diamond seats they are all in storage).

I'm bringing up the 7 oldest 763s because our 2018 fleet plan called for these frames to be retired but they were saved in 2019 while the plans for the PW 752s never changed. Those frames were leaving in 2020 COVID or no COVID.


I’m surprised we were investing money into the PW 757’s as of last year. Ship 5310, 5990, 5995, 5996, 5997, 5468, 5989 showed up with a new onboard WiFi system. The original PS fleet had 13 dedicated aircraft. The RR 757’s or the 767-400ER’s out of service right now can easily be assigned to JFK.
  • 1
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • 6
  • 7
  • 11

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos