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jfklganyc
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Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Wed Nov 11, 2020 4:05 am

tphuang wrote:
JFKalumni wrote:
N649DL wrote:
Great News! When was the last time UA even regularly flew a 763 to JFK? Like 2003 or something?



Maybe UA will take over all of T7? Also is UA going to reopen a club or small Polaris Lounge at JFK?

Personally I think this is an experiment to retest the waters at JFK and maybe return to LHR or NRT which were the last 2 long haul routes they ditched back in 2005-2006.


I hope we takeover terminal 7. Every gate except C11 and C12 can accommodate a wide body aircraft. Hopefully the underground deicing tanks and underground pre condition air still works. It makes life easier.


Again, T7 is not a permanent solution if B6 continues with its plan of connecting T6/7 to T5.

If I were UA, I'd get B6 on the phone and see what can be worked out.


Maybe something has already been worked out. We dont know.

T7 has a few years left in its current form
 
JFKalumni
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Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Wed Nov 11, 2020 4:18 am

jfklganyc wrote:
tphuang wrote:
JFKalumni wrote:

I hope we takeover terminal 7. Every gate except C11 and C12 can accommodate a wide body aircraft. Hopefully the underground deicing tanks and underground pre condition air still works. It makes life easier.


Again, T7 is not a permanent solution if B6 continues with its plan of connecting T6/7 to T5.

If I were UA, I'd get B6 on the phone and see what can be worked out.


Maybe something has already been worked out. We dont know.

T7 has a few years left in its current form


Several more years easily. When we left in 2015, BA was installing brand new jetbridge’s on every gate, new PC Air units, redesigning the GSE staging areas, redesigning the passenger areas and more. Knowing T7, the only item needed is a new rooftop.
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Wed Nov 11, 2020 4:35 am

JFKalumni wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
tphuang wrote:

Again, T7 is not a permanent solution if B6 continues with its plan of connecting T6/7 to T5.

If I were UA, I'd get B6 on the phone and see what can be worked out.


Maybe something has already been worked out. We dont know.

T7 has a few years left in its current form


Several more years easily. When we left in 2015, BA was installing brand new jetbridge’s on every gate, new PC Air units, redesigning the GSE staging areas, redesigning the passenger areas and more. Knowing T7, the only item needed is a new rooftop.


The terminal is slated for closure.

It is to be demolished.

Cuomo has a plan and T7 is in the way.

United has a few years there at most. Then they will
become a B6 tenant, an AA tenant, a TOGA tenant, or a Schcipol tenant.
 
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SCFlyer
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Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Wed Nov 11, 2020 5:03 am

From what I understand T7 is currently under ownership of the Authority and BA is simply the 'major tenant' and manager of the building.

If I recall this arrangement was only applied some years ago as BA formerly owned the building and leased out gates to UA when UA was a tenant there between 1991 and 2015.
 
JFKalumni
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Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Wed Nov 11, 2020 5:17 am

jfklganyc wrote:
JFKalumni wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:

Maybe something has already been worked out. We dont know.

T7 has a few years left in its current form


Several more years easily. When we left in 2015, BA was installing brand new jetbridge’s on every gate, new PC Air units, redesigning the GSE staging areas, redesigning the passenger areas and more. Knowing T7, the only item needed is a new rooftop.


The terminal is slated for closure.

It is to be demolished.

Cuomo has a plan and T7 is in the way.

United has a few years there at most. Then they will
become a B6 tenant, an AA tenant, a TOGA tenant, or a Schcipol tenant.


You’re right

Cuomo wants three items.

Gateway Tunnel
LGA Redevelopment
JFK Redevelopment
 
superking722
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Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Wed Nov 11, 2020 5:36 am

It seems as though with the introduction of JFK they are no longer considering BOS-SFO as a premium trans con route. Their website now says "Experience better coast-to-coast service with our updated premium transcontinental routes between New York (Newark or John F. Kennedy) and Los Angeles, and New York (Newark or John F. Kennedy) and San Francisco."
 
Brianpr3
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Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Wed Nov 11, 2020 7:46 am

JFKalumni wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
JFKalumni wrote:

Several more years easily. When we left in 2015, BA was installing brand new jetbridge’s on every gate, new PC Air units, redesigning the GSE staging areas, redesigning the passenger areas and more. Knowing T7, the only item needed is a new rooftop.


The terminal is slated for closure.

It is to be demolished.

Cuomo has a plan and T7 is in the way.

United has a few years there at most. Then they will
become a B6 tenant, an AA tenant, a TOGA tenant, or a Schcipol tenant.


You’re right

Cuomo wants three items.

Gateway Tunnel
LGA Redevelopment
JFK Redevelopment

Dont forget his stupid airtrain to lga
 
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RyanairGuru
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Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Wed Nov 11, 2020 7:54 am

tphuang wrote:
JFKalumni wrote:
N649DL wrote:
Great News! When was the last time UA even regularly flew a 763 to JFK? Like 2003 or something?



Maybe UA will take over all of T7? Also is UA going to reopen a club or small Polaris Lounge at JFK?

Personally I think this is an experiment to retest the waters at JFK and maybe return to LHR or NRT which were the last 2 long haul routes they ditched back in 2005-2006.


I hope we takeover terminal 7. Every gate except C11 and C12 can accommodate a wide body aircraft. Hopefully the underground deicing tanks and underground pre condition air still works. It makes life easier.


Again, T7 is not a permanent solution if B6 continues with its plan of connecting T6/7 to T5.

If I were UA, I'd get B6 on the phone and see what can be worked out.


There’s a chance they already have. United gave up their port-owned (but United exclusive use) gates at EWR to make way for B6.

I wouldn’t rule out a three way agreement between PANYNJ, United and JetBlue where B6 got some additional gates at EWR and in return United get a couple of gates at the expanded T5.
 
LondonXtreme
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Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Wed Nov 11, 2020 8:20 am

JFK-SFO/LAX are the most anticipated route before UA officially made the announcement. Apart from that, I expect to see JFK-LHR to be the 3rd UA route out of JFK in future, before we see the route from JFK to other domestic UA hubs. Anything could happen and I believe there is a room for UA.
 
UAL777UK
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Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Wed Nov 11, 2020 9:13 am

LondonXtreme wrote:
JFK-SFO/LAX are the most anticipated route before UA officially made the announcement. Apart from that, I expect to see JFK-LHR to be the 3rd UA route out of JFK in future, before we see the route from JFK to other domestic UA hubs. Anything could happen and I believe there is a room for UA.


Don't hold your breath on JFK - LHR. Why would they want to go up against the multiple frequencies of BA/AA and DL/VS? It would be money down the drain IMHO. Stick to EWR for that battle.
 
sand26391
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Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Wed Nov 11, 2020 9:53 am

There is a small possibility IMO, in the next 3-5 years they could launch JFK-BLR....
 
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SCFlyer
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Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Wed Nov 11, 2020 10:55 am

sand26391 wrote:
There is a small possibility IMO, in the next 3-5 years they could launch JFK-BLR....


Extremely unlikely. UA doesn't do much "point to point" non-hub flying.

Any JFK expansion outside of SFO/LAX for UA is likely only to be to other hubs.
 
tphuang
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Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Wed Nov 11, 2020 10:58 am

RyanairGuru wrote:
tphuang wrote:
JFKalumni wrote:

I hope we takeover terminal 7. Every gate except C11 and C12 can accommodate a wide body aircraft. Hopefully the underground deicing tanks and underground pre condition air still works. It makes life easier.


Again, T7 is not a permanent solution if B6 continues with its plan of connecting T6/7 to T5.

If I were UA, I'd get B6 on the phone and see what can be worked out.


There’s a chance they already have. United gave up their port-owned (but United exclusive use) gates at EWR to make way for B6.

I wouldn’t rule out a three way agreement between PANYNJ, United and JetBlue where B6 got some additional gates at EWR and in return United get a couple of gates at the expanded T5.


That's certainly possible, but my guess is that B6 got those gates (like NK got its new gate) because it was willing to expand and EWR gates are sitting unused. Long term, UA's desired footprint at JFK would probably require around 15 to 20 slot pairs, up to 4 gates, lounge space, large check in area (including separate check in for premium passengers), crew rest area and real estate to operate all the larger mainline aircraft. That's a pretty large requirement. I doubt that's something traded for just a couple of unused UAX gates.

We will see where JetBlue is in a couple of years, but T7 tenants are scheduled to move out in 2023 for demolition. If JetBlue presses ahead with its current plan, UA has over 2 years to figure out where they go.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Wed Nov 11, 2020 1:22 pm

LondonXtreme wrote:
JFK-SFO/LAX are the most anticipated route before UA officially made the announcement. Apart from that, I expect to see JFK-LHR to be the 3rd UA route out of JFK in future, before we see the route from JFK to other domestic UA hubs. Anything could happen and I believe there is a room for UA.


Very unlikely UA will re-enter JFK-LHR. It would need frequency to compete meaningfully against BA/AA and DL/VS, a premium lounge (Polaris), and the slots are likely not there on the LHR end. UA exited LHR from JFK many years before it closed the JFK station and likely isn't a factor in its corporate contracting for JFK flights to Heathrow the way SFO and LAX are.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Wed Nov 11, 2020 1:23 pm

sand26391 wrote:
There is a small possibility IMO, in the next 3-5 years they could launch JFK-BLR....


Nonsense. If UA launches a nonstop to BLR from the NY Area, it will be from EWR, not JFK. That would be a long, thin route, and the feed at EWR would be one way to make it work.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Wed Nov 11, 2020 1:25 pm

UAL777UK wrote:
LondonXtreme wrote:
JFK-SFO/LAX are the most anticipated route before UA officially made the announcement. Apart from that, I expect to see JFK-LHR to be the 3rd UA route out of JFK in future, before we see the route from JFK to other domestic UA hubs. Anything could happen and I believe there is a room for UA.


Don't hold your breath on JFK - LHR. Why would they want to go up against the multiple frequencies of BA/AA and DL/VS? It would be money down the drain IMHO. Stick to EWR for that battle.


Exactly. UA's premiums are likely to firm up on EWR-LHR once the market recovers as it only has to compete with BA there, and BA has what, 2 flights a day, vs. UA's 6 daily frequencies (pre-pandemic). VS has closed EWR.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Wed Nov 11, 2020 1:49 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
Exactly. UA's premiums are likely to firm up on EWR-LHR once the market recovers as it only has to compete with BA there, and BA has what, 2 flights a day, vs. UA's 6 daily frequencies (pre-pandemic). VS has closed EWR.


That's a point of view that rests on JFK not competing with EWR, which is, simply by the eagerness of UA's return to JFK, demonstrably false.
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Wed Nov 11, 2020 2:25 pm

LondonXtreme wrote:
JFK-SFO/LAX are the most anticipated route before UA officially made the announcement. Apart from that, I expect to see JFK-LHR to be the 3rd UA route out of JFK in future, before we see the route from JFK to other domestic UA hubs. Anything could happen and I believe there is a room for UA.



But that is not what United itself is saying.

They are saying other hubs.

Why would United be telling us something different?
 
trueblew
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Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Wed Nov 11, 2020 2:29 pm

As part of AS's likely wind down (but perhaps not total pullout) at JFK, might we expect UA to take over the Alaska Lounge space in T7? I don't recall there being much space for a third club lounge in T7 and, despite sinking a lot of money into it, AS don't have much use for a lounge at JFK anymore.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Wed Nov 11, 2020 2:31 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
Exactly. UA's premiums are likely to firm up on EWR-LHR once the market recovers as it only has to compete with BA there, and BA has what, 2 flights a day, vs. UA's 6 daily frequencies (pre-pandemic). VS has closed EWR.


That's a point of view that rests on JFK not competing with EWR, which is, simply by the eagerness of UA's return to JFK, demonstrably false.


UA is eager to return to JFK and undo the idiocy that was Jeff Smisek's decision to pull out and consolidate LAX/SFO at Newark. UA had then, and does even more now, strong corporate contracts on both the LAX/SFO end (notably in SFO and the Bay Area with Tech), and it also smells blood in AS, which has an uncompetitive product on its transcons and could potentially pull out entirely and cede the share it has to AA. UA's LHR services at JFK were, at their peak, from 1991 to roughly 2002 up to 3 times daily (with one EWR-LHR flight as well). JFK was all 767-300ERs at the time (a daylight flight and two overnight flights), and EWR went from 747SP service to 777 by 1996). By the time UA pulled out of JFK to LHR it was left with a single 777 service and it performed poorly (this was all pre-merger and in a different time). The hard reality is that JFK-LHR is dominated by BA and AA and then DL and VS. It's all about frequency. It's not out of the realm of possibility that UA would re-enter JFK-LHR, but it's not very likely either. On the other hand, UA's re-entry into JFK puts pressure on DL and AA. DL has the only widebody service to the West Coast where UA will compete, but DL's product on the 767-300ER is aging. B6 has arguably the best product and AA will have to either step it up or become irrelevant. I suspect AA will put the A321Ts back as the demand recovers and restore frequency.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Wed Nov 11, 2020 2:34 pm

trueblew wrote:
As part of AS's likely wind down (but perhaps not total pullout) at JFK, might we expect UA to take over the Alaska Lounge space in T7? I don't recall there being much space for a third club lounge in T7 and, despite sinking a lot of money into it, AS don't have much use for a lounge at JFK anymore.


That would be interesting.....since I think the AS Lounge is located in the former United Club in T7. I suspect AS will drop LAX/SFO entirely, and keep SEA and maybe PDX, and decamp to Terminal 8 where it won't need a lounge. The AS product on LAX/SFO just doesn't compete with B6, DL, AA, and now, UA.
 
sand26391
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Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Wed Nov 11, 2020 2:45 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
sand26391 wrote:
There is a small possibility IMO, in the next 3-5 years they could launch JFK-BLR....


Nonsense. If UA launches a nonstop to BLR from the NY Area, it will be from EWR, not JFK. That would be a long, thin route, and the feed at EWR would be one way to make it work.


Probably EWR yes, but this is what someone told me working in UA & the regarding JFK too. Hence the 3-5 year timeline she says.
 
CALMSP
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Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Wed Nov 11, 2020 3:59 pm

its going to be interesting how this goes, hopefully for the better, but given these 3 cities, who have essentially not opened anything up to date, I can't imagine anything remotely filling up the plane. Heck, right now EWR-SFO is incredibly wide open as it is. Nonetheless, glad to see it back and glad to see it on some 76J's!!!
 
jfk777
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Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Wed Nov 11, 2020 4:00 pm

United "new" JFK to LAX & SFO transcons on 767 are only because United has no where else to use them since LHR is dead right now. When those planes go back to flying from ORD, Newark and Dulles to LHR the JFK California flights will not have them. UA will probably fly with the new 737 replacing the 757 which previously flew the JFK transcons. Enjoy those Polaris 767 while you can because come next summer they are back to crossing the Atlantic.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Wed Nov 11, 2020 4:17 pm

sand26391 wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
sand26391 wrote:
There is a small possibility IMO, in the next 3-5 years they could launch JFK-BLR....


Nonsense. If UA launches a nonstop to BLR from the NY Area, it will be from EWR, not JFK. That would be a long, thin route, and the feed at EWR would be one way to make it work.


Probably EWR yes, but this is what someone told me working in UA & the regarding JFK too. Hence the 3-5 year timeline she says.


3-5 years out is a lifetime in the industry. My sense is that UA will test out BLR service from SFO, which has a good chance of success, and is much better positioned than the AA service it will compete with from SEA. A NY Area to BLR service was on the cards as far back as the CO days and was slated to be one of the first routes for the 787-8 when they were ordered by CO. It would not surprise if UA launched EWR to BLR. The DEL and BOM routes do very well.
 
jayunited
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Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Wed Nov 11, 2020 4:47 pm

CALMSP wrote:
its going to be interesting how this goes, hopefully for the better, but given these 3 cities, who have essentially not opened anything up to date, I can't imagine anything remotely filling up the plane. Heck, right now EWR-SFO is incredibly wide open as it is. Nonetheless, glad to see it back and glad to see it on some 76J's!!!



Right now we are in the middle of a pandemic and all airlines are still struggling from many of their coastal hubs save a few exceptions in the southeastern U.S.. Hopefully things will improve in the northeast and out west once the recovery begins.

Although UA plans to utilize our high J 763s to relaunch these routes those aircraft only have 167 seats. Again it is the nearly the same seat count as our RR 752s and seeing that these are premium routes the only two aircraft in our fleet that we can use without dumping a ton of excess capacity into the market are either a high J 763 or an RR 752s. We have no premium 737-10s yet and the remainder of our widebody fleet including our standard 763s (with our Polaris seats) have to many seats onboard to justify utilizing them on these routes at this time.

In my opinion their are several reasons why UA has decided to relaunch these routes with the high J 763s instead of an RR 752. First and foremost UA's Polaris seat is the best and most comfortable seat in our entire fleet. Secondly these aircraft also have 22 P.E. seats as well which UA would be able to sell as P.E. and not economy plus seats. Lastly I think cargo has a lot to do with it because United Cargo is already operating and has several contracts with companies in New York, San Francisco, and Los Angeles I think UA will have an easier time fill up the belly of the aircraft with cargo.
 
chonetsao
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Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Wed Nov 11, 2020 5:07 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
The terminal is slated for closure.

It is to be demolished.

Cuomo has a plan and T7 is in the way.

United has a few years there at most. Then they will
become a B6 tenant, an AA tenant, a TOGA tenant, or a Schcipol tenant.


Isn't T1 to be rebuilt and expanded? I would like to think UA will move to the new T1 rather than going to T5 or T8?
 
Cointrin330
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Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Wed Nov 11, 2020 5:08 pm

jayunited wrote:
CALMSP wrote:
its going to be interesting how this goes, hopefully for the better, but given these 3 cities, who have essentially not opened anything up to date, I can't imagine anything remotely filling up the plane. Heck, right now EWR-SFO is incredibly wide open as it is. Nonetheless, glad to see it back and glad to see it on some 76J's!!!



Right now we are in the middle of a pandemic and all airlines are still struggling from many of their coastal hubs save a few exceptions in the southeastern U.S.. Hopefully things will improve in the northeast and out west once the recovery begins.

Although UA plans to utilize our high J 763s to relaunch these routes those aircraft only have 167 seats. Again it is the nearly the same seat count as our RR 752s and seeing that these are premium routes the only two aircraft in our fleet that we can use without dumping a ton of excess capacity into the market are either a high J 763 or an RR 752s. We have no premium 737-10s yet and the remainder of our widebody fleet including our standard 763s (with our Polaris seats) have to many seats onboard to justify utilizing them on these routes at this time.

In my opinion their are several reasons why UA has decided to relaunch these routes with the high J 763s instead of an RR 752. First and foremost UA's Polaris seat is the best and most comfortable seat in our entire fleet. Secondly these aircraft also have 22 P.E. seats as well which UA would be able to sell as P.E. and not economy plus seats. Lastly I think cargo has a lot to do with it because United Cargo is already operating and has several contracts with companies in New York, San Francisco, and Los Angeles I think UA will have an easier time fill up the belly of the aircraft with cargo.


Yup. And UA Cargo I think still has a facility at JFK.
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Wed Nov 11, 2020 5:11 pm

B6 takes gates 20 21 and 22 at EWR next week. Lines being painted today.

You can use that nugget to fuel “deal” speculation
 
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gregn21
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Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Wed Nov 11, 2020 5:17 pm

Anyone know roughly when the first 7MJ's are scheduled to come on line at UA?
 
CALMSP
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Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Wed Nov 11, 2020 8:26 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
jayunited wrote:
CALMSP wrote:
its going to be interesting how this goes, hopefully for the better, but given these 3 cities, who have essentially not opened anything up to date, I can't imagine anything remotely filling up the plane. Heck, right now EWR-SFO is incredibly wide open as it is. Nonetheless, glad to see it back and glad to see it on some 76J's!!!



Right now we are in the middle of a pandemic and all airlines are still struggling from many of their coastal hubs save a few exceptions in the southeastern U.S.. Hopefully things will improve in the northeast and out west once the recovery begins.

Although UA plans to utilize our high J 763s to relaunch these routes those aircraft only have 167 seats. Again it is the nearly the same seat count as our RR 752s and seeing that these are premium routes the only two aircraft in our fleet that we can use without dumping a ton of excess capacity into the market are either a high J 763 or an RR 752s. We have no premium 737-10s yet and the remainder of our widebody fleet including our standard 763s (with our Polaris seats) have to many seats onboard to justify utilizing them on these routes at this time.

In my opinion their are several reasons why UA has decided to relaunch these routes with the high J 763s instead of an RR 752. First and foremost UA's Polaris seat is the best and most comfortable seat in our entire fleet. Secondly these aircraft also have 22 P.E. seats as well which UA would be able to sell as P.E. and not economy plus seats. Lastly I think cargo has a lot to do with it because United Cargo is already operating and has several contracts with companies in New York, San Francisco, and Los Angeles I think UA will have an easier time fill up the belly of the aircraft with cargo.


Yup. And UA Cargo I think still has a facility at JFK.


They do, that never closed, although they outsourced the operation just after the merger. They truck everything to EWR and JFK (which will still be the majority of goods) but also fly mail on OAL.
 
VC10er
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Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Wed Nov 11, 2020 8:57 pm

When I got my giant JFK email from United and read that it will be operated with a high J 763, I actually got a chill down my spine!

I live in the West Village and getting to EWR by car service is the closest thing to an SUV with a “spore drive!!!” - I barely finish reading the news before we are in front of TC.

But, once upon a time I was a United loyalist during UA’s heyday at JFK. I will certainly take this flight for fun once and a while.

Personally I think that once this horrific pandemic is over, I would bet on UA doing well at JFK even if UA is much smaller than AA, DL, B6...if UA executes flawlessly at JFK. Right now good on board service is limited given the pandemic. But once life is back to a new (but robust) competitive environment, United can create a great JFK experience. And if it stays with a Polaris seat for First Class and enhances food and service etc (as well as potential bells and whistles for the chic and rich) I can easily see a strong business, even if the lion’s share remains at EWR.

I know that now is not a good time to spend money on “nice to haves” but if this 763 had a special JFK livery, (ala: Her Art Here) it would be awesome!
 
N649DL
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Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Wed Nov 11, 2020 11:22 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
B6 takes gates 20 21 and 22 at EWR next week. Lines being painted today.

You can use that nugget to fuel “deal” speculation


Wow and just last week there were users on here jumping up and down saying "THAT WILL NEVER HAPPEN!!!!"

Also waiting on DL to retaliate with a lie flat 757 on EWR-LAX 1x daily or something too.
 
dmstorm22
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Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Wed Nov 11, 2020 11:36 pm

VC10er wrote:
When I got my giant JFK email from United and read that it will be operated with a high J 763, I actually got a chill down my spine!

I live in the West Village and getting to EWR by car service is the closest thing to an SUV with a “spore drive!!!” - I barely finish reading the news before we are in front of TC.

But, once upon a time I was a United loyalist during UA’s heyday at JFK. I will certainly take this flight for fun once and a while.

Personally I think that once this horrific pandemic is over, I would bet on UA doing well at JFK even if UA is much smaller than AA, DL, B6...if UA executes flawlessly at JFK. Right now good on board service is limited given the pandemic. But once life is back to a new (but robust) competitive environment, United can create a great JFK experience. And if it stays with a Polaris seat for First Class and enhances food and service etc (as well as potential bells and whistles for the chic and rich) I can easily see a strong business, even if the lion’s share remains at EWR.

I know that now is not a good time to spend money on “nice to haves” but if this 763 had a special JFK livery, (ala: Her Art Here) it would be awesome!


I do wonder if keeping the high-J 763 on the route is long for the world when at some point they can put those back on EWR-LHR (and other XYZ-LHR) where they had carved a really nice niche.

Long term they need a competitive lie-flat product even on EWR-LAX/SFO (I believe the 737 Max 10?) and that could run JFK-LAX/SFO as well. If anything probably easier for UA to rotate a 763 High-J bird on EWR-LAX/SFO.

Agreed though for now it is a good move to get a good foundational JFK-LAX/SFO start.
 
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DalDC9Bos
Posts: 49
Joined: Sat Oct 20, 2012 4:54 am

Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Thu Nov 12, 2020 12:34 am

A wide body on a transcon is great and all, but isn’t it too large of an aircraft to launch the route and just too many seats during covid? Delta has 767s on their LAXs, but they are in a different situation at JFK. They still usually stick to the 752 for SFO flights.

Does UA want to just build presence at JFK or actually make money?
 
User avatar
drerx7
Posts: 4470
Joined: Fri Jun 30, 2000 12:19 am

Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Thu Nov 12, 2020 1:33 am

DalDC9Bos wrote:
A wide body on a transcon is great and all, but isn’t it too large of an aircraft to launch the route and just too many seats during covid? Delta has 767s on their LAXs, but they are in a different situation at JFK. They still usually stick to the 752 for SFO flights.

Does UA want to just build presence at JFK or actually make money?

Its a High J 167 seat bird.
 
User avatar
jetblastdubai
Posts: 2083
Joined: Sun Aug 18, 2013 10:23 am

Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Thu Nov 12, 2020 1:37 am

DalDC9Bos wrote:
A wide body on a transcon is great and all, but isn’t it too large of an aircraft to launch the route and just too many seats during covid? Delta has 767s on their LAXs, but they are in a different situation at JFK. They still usually stick to the 752 for SFO flights.

Does UA want to just build presence at JFK or actually make money?


gsg013 wrote:
I think this will be interesting. Good luck to UA on this route...The high J 767 is an interesting bird with 167 seats 46 J 22 W , 47 Y+ , and 52 Y.
DL:
767-300ER: 26J, 35 Y+, 165 Y
757-200ER:16J, 44 Y+, 108 Y



According to a message upstream: UA's high-J 763s has 1 less seat than the DL 752s on JFK-SFO. UA's 763 has 59 fewer seats than the DL 763 on JFK-LAX. DL might be in a different situation at JFK but if that's the argument, then UA is most definitely in a different situation in SFO. I'm not familiar with the Mint product on B6 but I find it hard to believe that anything else out there can beat a Polaris seat on any widebody for a domestic TRANSCON.
 
Cointrin330
Posts: 2268
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 12:23 pm

Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Thu Nov 12, 2020 2:05 am

jetblastdubai wrote:
DalDC9Bos wrote:
A wide body on a transcon is great and all, but isn’t it too large of an aircraft to launch the route and just too many seats during covid? Delta has 767s on their LAXs, but they are in a different situation at JFK. They still usually stick to the 752 for SFO flights.

Does UA want to just build presence at JFK or actually make money?


gsg013 wrote:
I think this will be interesting. Good luck to UA on this route...The high J 767 is an interesting bird with 167 seats 46 J 22 W , 47 Y+ , and 52 Y.
DL:
767-300ER: 26J, 35 Y+, 165 Y
757-200ER:16J, 44 Y+, 108 Y



According to a message upstream: UA's high-J 763s has 1 less seat than the DL 752s on JFK-SFO. UA's 763 has 59 fewer seats than the DL 763 on JFK-LAX. DL might be in a different situation at JFK but if that's the argument, then UA is most definitely in a different situation in SFO. I'm not familiar with the Mint product on B6 but I find it hard to believe that anything else out there can beat a Polaris seat on any widebody for a domestic TRANSCON.


Polaris is a very competitive product. The cabin crew on UA, though it has vastly improved its service levels, can still be hit or miss. B6 has a very strong product in MINT. The seat, the privacy, and the food are top notch. B6 falls short with no lounge, but it is arguably the strongest product across the country to LAX/SFO.
 
JoseSalazar
Posts: 607
Joined: Mon Oct 14, 2019 3:18 am

Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Thu Nov 12, 2020 2:05 am

jetblastdubai wrote:
DalDC9Bos wrote:
A wide body on a transcon is great and all, but isn’t it too large of an aircraft to launch the route and just too many seats during covid? Delta has 767s on their LAXs, but they are in a different situation at JFK. They still usually stick to the 752 for SFO flights.

Does UA want to just build presence at JFK or actually make money?


gsg013 wrote:
I think this will be interesting. Good luck to UA on this route...The high J 767 is an interesting bird with 167 seats 46 J 22 W , 47 Y+ , and 52 Y.
DL:
767-300ER: 26J, 35 Y+, 165 Y
757-200ER:16J, 44 Y+, 108 Y



According to a message upstream: UA's high-J 763s has 1 less seat than the DL 752s on JFK-SFO. UA's 763 has 59 fewer seats than the DL 763 on JFK-LAX. DL might be in a different situation at JFK but if that's the argument, then UA is most definitely in a different situation in SFO. I'm not familiar with the Mint product on B6 but I find it hard to believe that anything else out there can beat a Polaris seat on any widebody for a domestic TRANSCON.


https://thepointsguy.com/reviews/best-transcon-flight/
Here’s a good comparison. Bottom line is, all offer comparable good experiences, lie flat seating, good IFE, and good food. I think only B6 offers free wifi, but I guess if you are riding in a $1300+ seat, that doesn’t matter a whole lot to those customers. Being in an A321 lie flat vs a widebody lie flat makes no difference to me regarding my comfort. But from a frequency and cost standpoint for the airlines, I think the NBs win out. I think most people will book based on their FF ecosystem, price, and schedule (and corporate contracts).
 
AA94
Posts: 786
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2011 1:37 am

Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Thu Nov 12, 2020 3:56 am

jetblastdubai wrote:

According to a message upstream: UA's high-J 763s has 1 less seat than the DL 752s on JFK-SFO. UA's 763 has 59 fewer seats than the DL 763 on JFK-LAX. DL might be in a different situation at JFK but if that's the argument, then UA is most definitely in a different situation in SFO. I'm not familiar with the Mint product on B6 but I find it hard to believe that anything else out there can beat a Polaris seat on any widebody for a domestic TRANSCON.


The Polaris seat is excellent, but the catering is meh and the service is hit or miss — I've had stellar crews, indifferent crews, and everything in between. Mint is a little more consistent with high quality catering and generally attentive service. Both are good options, so pricing and FF leanings will guide people.
 
jayunited
Posts: 3607
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:03 am

Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Thu Nov 12, 2020 1:59 pm

AA94 wrote:
jetblastdubai wrote:

According to a message upstream: UA's high-J 763s has 1 less seat than the DL 752s on JFK-SFO. UA's 763 has 59 fewer seats than the DL 763 on JFK-LAX. DL might be in a different situation at JFK but if that's the argument, then UA is most definitely in a different situation in SFO. I'm not familiar with the Mint product on B6 but I find it hard to believe that anything else out there can beat a Polaris seat on any widebody for a domestic TRANSCON.


The Polaris seat is excellent, but the catering is meh and the service is hit or miss — I've had stellar crews, indifferent crews, and everything in between. Mint is a little more consistent with high quality catering and generally attentive service. Both are good options, so pricing and FF leanings will guide people.



Polaris catering has been great since, I think where UA falls short is with our FA's because you are right it is hit or miss. I've been on flights with the same meal one was terrible the other was great the difference was the FA's. Some of our FA's simply don't care and they either don't properly reheat the food or the cook the hell out of it and every thing is dried out. It is amazing how you can have the same meal and it can look and tastes completely different depending on the FA's working the flight.

But as far as the hard product B6 Mint has 159 seats and UA's high J 763s have 167 seats. Having flown several times on the high J 763s these aircraft are by far UA most comfortable aircraft in our entire fleet. Out of 167 seats 115 of them offer passengers more space from Polaris to PE and Y+. No matter a customers price point these high J's have it covered. I'm glad UA is holding on to our 763s for a while because the high J's are just comfortable even in coach and it is hard to find a truly comfortable aircraft nose to tail in UA's fleet. Our 77Ws, 77Es, and 787s feel cramped and crowed in coach and here we have a 763 capable of holding well over 200 passengers with only 167 seats.

Just to put things in perspective UA's 739ERs have 179s seats on them, and here a 763 a much larger aircraft has less seats than our 739ERs.
 
fun2fly
Posts: 1775
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2006 8:44 am

Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Thu Nov 12, 2020 3:04 pm

We have to remember that the decision to return to JFK is driven by corporate contracts. With those contracts and negotiations, UA has a good feel for the # of seats needed. I think the HiJ 763's are a smart move to put UA at the top of the Transcon market and should impress those who haven't been on UA in some time. When larger corporate customers return to the skies, putting their employees in a isolated lie flat seat will allow for additional "incentive" to return to the skies and start seeing clients.

I do agree the Max10 will be the go to a/c in the future for Transcons, but the cargo UA moves should justify a few w/b a/c daily from each airport.

I don't know about you, but it's exciting to finally talk about new routes and some hope for 2021 and JFK/UA is a big deal.
 
CALMSP
Posts: 3781
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 3:18 am

Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Thu Nov 12, 2020 3:21 pm

fun2fly wrote:
We have to remember that the decision to return to JFK is driven by corporate contracts. With those contracts and negotiations, UA has a good feel for the # of seats needed. I think the HiJ 763's are a smart move to put UA at the top of the Transcon market and should impress those who haven't been on UA in some time. When larger corporate customers return to the skies, putting their employees in a isolated lie flat seat will allow for additional "incentive" to return to the skies and start seeing clients.

I do agree the Max10 will be the go to a/c in the future for Transcons, but the cargo UA moves should justify a few w/b a/c daily from each airport.

I don't know about you, but it's exciting to finally talk about new routes and some hope for 2021 and JFK/UA is a big deal.


impressing those that haven't flown UA in a while is not something that is going to make the route a success. Those that fly know what UA has to offer in comparison to others, its simply going to come down to getting those who fly constantly and spend money for the premium seats to jump ship.
 
fun2fly
Posts: 1775
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2006 8:44 am

Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Thu Nov 12, 2020 4:16 pm

CALMSP wrote:
fun2fly wrote:
We have to remember that the decision to return to JFK is driven by corporate contracts. With those contracts and negotiations, UA has a good feel for the # of seats needed. I think the HiJ 763's are a smart move to put UA at the top of the Transcon market and should impress those who haven't been on UA in some time. When larger corporate customers return to the skies, putting their employees in a isolated lie flat seat will allow for additional "incentive" to return to the skies and start seeing clients.

I do agree the Max10 will be the go to a/c in the future for Transcons, but the cargo UA moves should justify a few w/b a/c daily from each airport.

I don't know about you, but it's exciting to finally talk about new routes and some hope for 2021 and JFK/UA is a big deal.


impressing those that haven't flown UA in a while is not something that is going to make the route a success. Those that fly know what UA has to offer in comparison to others, its simply going to come down to getting those who fly constantly and spend money for the premium seats to jump ship.


Corporate contracts force the "try" UA quite a bit. When you type in LAX>JFK on your company's travel portal, you'll see (example) UA at $1,000 then all the non contracted carriers at $1,400 which makes it pretty hard to justify using some other carrier. I know when I ran the travel dept. for a F500 company, we'd get a report weekly of everyone who took the $1,400 flight to police the compliance. During the booking, we also asked for a reason why they didn't choose the preferred carrier when it was over a $$ threshold. (Much less noticeable on a coach tix OMA>ORD or similar lane at a lower price).

Of course, the big dog customers in those markets have multiple contracts, so you'll probably have your choice of two carriers now serving all 3 NYC airports, but won't have your choice of all carriers due to pricing. We could even hide carriers on our custom travel site (NK) and it was painful for anyone to use WN because it forced a phone call (I have heard this has changed).
 
trueblew
Posts: 339
Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:16 pm

Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Thu Nov 12, 2020 4:23 pm

Everyone is waxing lyrical about these high-J configs and corporate contracts etc etc.... but where are the hordes of J customers and corporate travelers to fill them? It's mostly Group 4-5 pax currently and will likely still be when this route launches.
 
slcdeltarumd11
Posts: 5273
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2004 7:30 am

Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Thu Nov 12, 2020 5:23 pm

Right now would be an absolute cash burn to launch. United clearly is hoping for a demand increase by launch date. I'm not so sure, but I wish them luck! We might see business class seats reach an all time low soon! Good for customers it's already competative and cheap, we could see even better deals coming
 
CALMSP
Posts: 3781
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 3:18 am

Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Thu Nov 12, 2020 6:14 pm

slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
Right now would be an absolute cash burn to launch. United clearly is hoping for a demand increase by launch date. I'm not so sure, but I wish them luck! We might see business class seats reach an all time low soon! Good for customers it's already competative and cheap, we could see even better deals coming


if you're not filling EWR-SFO/LAX that offers connecting pax, the new JFK flights aren't going to be any better, but, its a route that people feel they need to operate......but again, many people also said UA had to serve BKK otherwise they weren't a truly global airline :roll:
 
jayunited
Posts: 3607
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:03 am

Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Fri Nov 13, 2020 12:01 am

trueblew wrote:
Everyone is waxing lyrical about these high-J configs and corporate contracts etc etc.... but where are the hordes of J customers and corporate travelers to fill them? It's mostly Group 4-5 pax currently and will likely still be when this route launches.



No one is saying UA will fill 46 Polaris seats with paying customers, no one is making that assertion. What people are saying is because these routes are very competitive UA really has no choice. Back in April and May UA on our EWR-SFO/LAX routes replace our lie flat seats with 738s and 739ERs a cost cutting move. However that move backfired and cost UA dearly by the time June came around UA has replaced 738s and 739ERs with RR 752s, 763s, 789s and 78Xs. Even though we are still in the middle of a pandemic and business travel remains down these routes NYC-LAX/SFO are still as competitive as ever and launching these routes with anything other than lie flat seats would be a disaster for UA. Everyone knows for now business class ticket prices are near all time lows on these routes but again because of the nature of these routes and competition an airline like UA can't put any other aircraft on these routes.

Sure UA could use our 169 seats RR 752s but you've just eliminated your ability to carry large amounts of cargo. Launching these routes with a 763 at least gives UA the opportunity to carry 30,000 LBS or more of cargo on each flight in each direction.
 
SurfandSnow
Posts: 1683
Joined: Sun Feb 01, 2009 7:09 am

Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Fri Nov 13, 2020 3:45 am

EWR was never going to be an appropriate UA gateway to places like Brooklyn and the Hamptons. I suspect UA FFers on both coasts, particularly those that call themselves "bicoastal", will very much appreciate the availability of these flights for business, leisure and/or VFR purposes. Alaska Airlines seemed to be struggling to make the LAX and SFO hubs that it inherited from VX work even before the pandemic - and hasn't AS fully suspended LAX-JFK?!?

As if AS and its seemingly vulnerable California hub operations weren't reason enough for UA to resume LAX/SFO-JFK, AA has openly admitted how poorly its Los Angeles and New York City hubs were performing. Again, I think these issues were already readily apparent before the pandemic.. but now is certainly a good time for UA to restore flights that the airline itself says should have never been cut in the first place! Perhaps UA could see AA abandoning JFK-SFO, or AS permanently cutting LAX-JFK. I know I wouldn't be surprised to see those things happen.

As a bonus, this move could even help thwart a WN entry to JFK. After all, any kind of WN service at JFK could dramatically strengthen that carrier's appeal in the Tri-State Area market and cause further headaches for the hub carriers there. At this point, I could even see WN trying to get right back into EWR as part of their new "breadth over depth" strategy. Stranger things have happened!
 
T5towbar
Posts: 531
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2009 2:06 am

Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Fri Nov 13, 2020 9:38 am

tphuang wrote:
RyanairGuru wrote:
tphuang wrote:

Again, T7 is not a permanent solution if B6 continues with its plan of connecting T6/7 to T5.

If I were UA, I'd get B6 on the phone and see what can be worked out.


There’s a chance they already have. United gave up their port-owned (but United exclusive use) gates at EWR to make way for B6.

I wouldn’t rule out a three way agreement between PANYNJ, United and JetBlue where B6 got some additional gates at EWR and in return United get a couple of gates at the expanded T5.


That's certainly possible, but my guess is that B6 got those gates (like NK got its new gate) because it was willing to expand and EWR gates are sitting unused. Long term, UA's desired footprint at JFK would probably require around 15 to 20 slot pairs, up to 4 gates, lounge space, large check in area (including separate check in for premium passengers), crew rest area and real estate to operate all the larger mainline aircraft. That's a pretty large requirement. I doubt that's something traded for just a couple of unused UAX gates.

We will see where JetBlue is in a couple of years, but T7 tenants are scheduled to move out in 2023 for demolition. If JetBlue presses ahead with its current plan, UA has over 2 years to figure out where they go.



Well I was over there (A-2), Monday, and they are repainting and re-striping the ACZ (ramp) for mainline type aircraft. I'm pretty sure that B6 will be using those gates 20; 21; 22; and 23. As I said before, they can use those gates right now with minimal disruption, since A-20 jetway can be shut down and everything else shifted over to accommodate mainline aircraft. I also think that A-23 can handle a A321 as well. Also, those 4 gates are very close to their BMU as well. I don't know what kind of work they are doing upstairs though. From what I understand, they haven't given up A-24 thru A-28. UAX still parks there - as well as mainline, and a lot of unused GSE remains there on the front hardstand. But the bus hold room is closed. But I wouldn't put it past them to come up with an agreement to use some of those gates as well. The terminal only has something like a year and a half left, so who knows.......

Looks like we won't be coming back over to A until the new terminal gets built.

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