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jasoncrh
Posts: 797
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2005 10:29 pm

Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Sun Dec 13, 2020 10:33 pm

Etihad started service to JFK with an a340 -500 in 2006.

Qatar airways didn’t start flying to jfk until after that.

United stopped flying to nrt from jfk in 2006. They had flown the route with a 777 since at least 2001 by that time.

Somethings wrong in what you’re saying

quote="JFKalumni"]
jfklganyc wrote:
maverick4002 wrote:

Didnt Delta start making money at JFK around 2018?


That’s hard to say. They have had a hub there of varying size since 1991. I imagine over the period of 30 years it was somewhat profitable


I hate when people say JFK wasn’t profitable. Back in the day, the NRT 747 was $1 million dollars a day flight. We were building mail for:

Etihad
Qatar
Singapore
JAL
Swiss
Aer Lingus
Lufthansa
Air India
Austrian
Brussels
Kuwait
Qantas
Virgin Atlantic
South African
Uzbekistan

Plus the UA domestic and International. We were dumping over 100,000 pounds of mail on the afternoon shift alone. The trucks from IAD with the ISAL mail were the worst. UA lost contracts when the original Premium Service downgraded to two class. Up until the day we closed, we were handling large groups so there was always money to be made.

During Christmas time, Etihad was always angry with us. In one day we built enough containers of mail to fill the A340-600. There were no positions left for freight and passengers bags. UA was making money.[/quote]
 
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SCFlyer
Posts: 700
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2018 11:14 pm

Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Mon Dec 14, 2020 1:32 am

United never tecnically had a "hub" at JFK when speaking in a traditional sense. At most JFK (along with MIA) could be referred to as 'focus cities'.

JFK was just a 'large outstation' with hub flying and "point to point" (mostly international) flying with a crew base for UA at its peak, even though UA had referred to JFK and MIA as international gateways at some point.
 
jasoncrh
Posts: 797
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2005 10:29 pm

Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Mon Dec 14, 2020 1:46 am

Yeah- at most, United had 3 flights to London, 6 or 7 to SFO, 6 or 7 to LAX, 1 to São Paulo/Rio, 1 to Buenos Aires, 1 to Seattle, 1 to Narita, and let’s say 5 or 6 to Dulles. So like 27? Maybe 28 departures? From time to time they had San Juan and maybe now and then Chicago. But that’s it. Not a hub. Oh, and they also flew to Hong Kong for a few months before 9/11. That’s it. So 30 max?


SCFlyer wrote:
United never tecnically had a "hub" at JFK when speaking in a traditional sense. At most JFK (along with MIA) could be referred to as 'focus cities'.

JFK was just a 'large outstation' with hub flying and "point to point" (mostly international) flying with a crew base for UA at its peak, even though UA had referred to JFK and MIA as international gateways at some point.
 
Cointrin330
Posts: 2268
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 12:23 pm

Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Mon Dec 14, 2020 2:00 am

jasoncrh wrote:
Yeah- at most, United had 3 flights to London, 6 or 7 to SFO, 6 or 7 to LAX, 1 to São Paulo/Rio, 1 to Buenos Aires, 1 to Seattle, 1 to Narita, and let’s say 5 or 6 to Dulles. So like 27? Maybe 28 departures? From time to time they had San Juan and maybe now and then Chicago. But that’s it. Not a hub. Oh, and they also flew to Hong Kong for a few months before 9/11. That’s it. So 30 max?


SCFlyer wrote:
United never tecnically had a "hub" at JFK when speaking in a traditional sense. At most JFK (along with MIA) could be referred to as 'focus cities'.

JFK was just a 'large outstation' with hub flying and "point to point" (mostly international) flying with a crew base for UA at its peak, even though UA had referred to JFK and MIA as international gateways at some point.


At the peak of UA's JFK operation, it flew 3 times daily to LHR (one daylight and two overnight flights) all on the 767-300ER, 7 daily nonstops to SFO, 6 to LAX, plus daily 767-300ER service to GRU and EZE, a 757 (then A320 to SEA), NRT, which was operated on the 747-200, then -400, then 777. SJU, CCS, and ORD were operated at most once a week. IAD was served up to 3 or 4 times a day, usually on small turboprops. HKG was served nonstop on the 744 for a few months before 9/11. By then, I think GRU/EZE and the one stop to GIG were already shifted to IAD, but that I am not sure of. It wasn't a hub. Not even a focus city. It was just a station. Terminal 7 handled everything except LAX/SFO which was shifted to gates UA leased from TWA at Terminal 6. Once T6 became the B6 hub, LAX/SFO moved back to T7. The current AS Board Room is in the the former UA Red Carpet Club space at T7.
Last edited by Cointrin330 on Mon Dec 14, 2020 2:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
JFKalumni
Posts: 235
Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2019 5:45 pm

Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Mon Dec 14, 2020 2:00 am

jasoncrh wrote:
Etihad started service to JFK with an a340 -500 in 2006.

Qatar airways didn’t start flying to jfk until after that.

United stopped flying to nrt from jfk in 2006. They had flown the route with a 777 since at least 2001 by that time.

Somethings wrong in what you’re saying

quote="JFKalumni"]
jfklganyc wrote:
maverick4002 wrote:

Didnt Delta start making money at JFK around 2018?


That’s hard to say. They have had a hub there of varying size since 1991. I imagine over the period of 30 years it was somewhat profitable


I hate when people say JFK wasn’t profitable. Back in the day, the NRT 747 was $1 million dollars a day flight. We were building mail for:

Etihad
Qatar
Singapore
JAL
Swiss
Aer Lingus
Lufthansa
Air India
Austrian
Brussels
Kuwait
Qantas
Virgin Atlantic
South African
Uzbekistan

Plus the UA domestic and International. We were dumping over 100,000 pounds of mail on the afternoon shift alone. The trucks from IAD with the ISAL mail were the worst. UA lost contracts when the original Premium Service downgraded to two class. Up until the day we closed, we were handling large groups so there was always money to be made.

During Christmas time, Etihad was always angry with us. In one day we built enough containers of mail to fill the A340-600. There were no positions left for freight and passengers bags. UA was making money.
[/quote]

We left JFK in 2015

Etihad was always switching the equipment between the A340-500/600 and the 777-300 ER

We delivered the mail to Qatar at the Korean air cargo building and Etihad was using the cargo building next to FedEx then eventually moved into Menzies across from DHL

And we lost all of our wide bodies so what’s the problem ?
 
jasoncrh
Posts: 797
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2005 10:29 pm

Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Mon Dec 14, 2020 2:11 am

United flew the Buenos Aires abd São Paulo/ Rio flights right up until 9/11. I flew those flights many times, with a flight to Buenos Aires and back in July 2001. São Paulo was still there. Then after 9/11 they cut the nonstops and started a jfk-Miami flight that fed the South American flights. The nonstops were shifted to Dulles in the fall of 2002. São Paulo still flies, while Buenos Aires ended in early 2012.

Cointrin330 wrote:
jasoncrh wrote:
Yeah- at most, United had 3 flights to London, 6 or 7 to SFO, 6 or 7 to LAX, 1 to São Paulo/Rio, 1 to Buenos Aires, 1 to Seattle, 1 to Narita, and let’s say 5 or 6 to Dulles. So like 27? Maybe 28 departures? From time to time they had San Juan and maybe now and then Chicago. But that’s it. Not a hub. Oh, and they also flew to Hong Kong for a few months before 9/11. That’s it. So 30 max?


SCFlyer wrote:
United never tecnically had a "hub" at JFK when speaking in a traditional sense. At most JFK (along with MIA) could be referred to as 'focus cities'.

JFK was just a 'large outstation' with hub flying and "point to point" (mostly international) flying with a crew base for UA at its peak, even though UA had referred to JFK and MIA as international gateways at some point.


At the peak of UA's JFK operation, it flew 3 times daily to LHR (one daylight and two overnight flights) all on the 767-300ER, 7 daily nonstops to SFO, 6 to LAX, plus daily 767-300ER service to GRU and EZE, a 757 (then A320 to SEA), NRT, which was operated on the 747-200, then -400, then 777. SJU, CCS, and ORD were operated at most once a week. IAD was served up to 3 or 4 times a day, usually on small turboprops. HKG was served nonstop on the 744 for a few months before 9/11. By then, I think GRU/EZE and the one stop to GIG were already shifted to IAD, but that I am not sure of. It wasn't a hub. Not even a focus city. It was just a station. Terminal 7 handled everything except LAX/SFO which was shifted to gates UA leased from TWA at Terminal 6. Once T6 became the B6 hub, LAX/SFO moved back to T7. The current AS Board Room is in the the former UA Red Carpet Club space at T7.
 
Cointrin330
Posts: 2268
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 12:23 pm

Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Mon Dec 14, 2020 2:17 am

jasoncrh wrote:
United flew the Buenos Aires abd São Paulo/ Rio flights right up until 9/11. I flew those flights many times, with a flight to Buenos Aires and back in July 2001. São Paulo was still there. Then after 9/11 they cut the nonstops and started a jfk-Miami flight that fed the South American flights. The nonstops were shifted to Dulles in the fall of 2002. São Paulo still flies, while Buenos Aires ended in early 2012.

Cointrin330 wrote:
jasoncrh wrote:
Yeah- at most, United had 3 flights to London, 6 or 7 to SFO, 6 or 7 to LAX, 1 to São Paulo/Rio, 1 to Buenos Aires, 1 to Seattle, 1 to Narita, and let’s say 5 or 6 to Dulles. So like 27? Maybe 28 departures? From time to time they had San Juan and maybe now and then Chicago. But that’s it. Not a hub. Oh, and they also flew to Hong Kong for a few months before 9/11. That’s it. So 30 max?




At the peak of UA's JFK operation, it flew 3 times daily to LHR (one daylight and two overnight flights) all on the 767-300ER, 7 daily nonstops to SFO, 6 to LAX, plus daily 767-300ER service to GRU and EZE, a 757 (then A320 to SEA), NRT, which was operated on the 747-200, then -400, then 777. SJU, CCS, and ORD were operated at most once a week. IAD was served up to 3 or 4 times a day, usually on small turboprops. HKG was served nonstop on the 744 for a few months before 9/11. By then, I think GRU/EZE and the one stop to GIG were already shifted to IAD, but that I am not sure of. It wasn't a hub. Not even a focus city. It was just a station. Terminal 7 handled everything except LAX/SFO which was shifted to gates UA leased from TWA at Terminal 6. Once T6 became the B6 hub, LAX/SFO moved back to T7. The current AS Board Room is in the the former UA Red Carpet Club space at T7.


EZE was shifted from IAD to EWR in 2012, operated for a bit, and was cut, at the same time the EWR-IST nonstop UA had post-merger was also cut. Both were operated on 767-300ERs. EWR-EZE was restarted in 2017 and actually flew with a larger, 767-400ER until it was cut again in October 2019. The IAH-EZE route is a former CO route, launched in November 2005 with a 767-200ER and was upgauged to a 772 before the merger and has operated with one pretty much since, though for a time, it was a 787-9.
 
klwright69
Posts: 2736
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2000 4:22 am

Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Sat Jan 09, 2021 11:51 am

How are bookings for these JFK flights. It's 3 weeks out.

Are they using UA ground staff or a vendor?

Some UA employees would probably transfer back.

Exciting times!

Is an inauguration party planned?
 
AmericanAir88
Posts: 237
Joined: Wed May 27, 2020 8:59 pm

Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Sat Jan 09, 2021 2:20 pm

klwright69 wrote:
How are bookings for these JFK flights. It's 3 weeks out.


On February 1st, it seems that JFK-SFO is quite booked. (Seat map) First class is almost completely full. LAX is not the same however.

I do expect bookings to get stronger as time gets closer and as months go on. JFK on UA basically opens up a whole new sector of NY State (Long Island) to UA. Not many people want to drive from LI to EWR.

Anyone else have booking statistics? Very curious about UA at JFK
 
klwright69
Posts: 2736
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2000 4:22 am

Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Sat Jan 09, 2021 3:43 pm

I too am very curious about UA at JFK. They lost so much goodwill when they left. It was such an odd move to completely leave and dump good customers.
A new dawn is coming now.
If they didn't return to JFK, there was only so much they could do at the other 2 airports.
They will find a way to get permanent slots too I am sure. I am positive.
At the time I thought it was a good idea, I must confess. Now I realize the error of my thinking then. Times change.
 
CALMSP
Posts: 3649
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 3:18 am

Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Sat Jan 09, 2021 4:40 pm

AmericanAir88 wrote:
klwright69 wrote:
How are bookings for these JFK flights. It's 3 weeks out.


On February 1st, it seems that JFK-SFO is quite booked. (Seat map) First class is almost completely full. LAX is not the same however.

I do expect bookings to get stronger as time gets closer and as months go on. JFK on UA basically opens up a whole new sector of NY State (Long Island) to UA. Not many people want to drive from LI to EWR.

Anyone else have booking statistics? Very curious about UA at JFK


actually, JFK-SFO on the 1st is extremely empty.
 
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jfklganyc
Posts: 6356
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 2:31 pm

Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Sat Jan 09, 2021 4:56 pm

California is shutdown. LA the situation is totally out of control. NY has the quarantine.

Not the greatest time to start these routes. Loads will be bad, yields will be worse.

Plus, they are #5 on these routes. They need to fight there way back
 
CALMSP
Posts: 3649
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 3:18 am

Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Sat Jan 09, 2021 5:26 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
California is shutdown. LA the situation is totally out of control. NY has the quarantine.

Not the greatest time to start these routes. Loads will be bad, yields will be worse.

Plus, they are #5 on these routes. They need to fight there way back


yeah, I'm surprised they are going to start now, with both ends basically being the most restrictive out of the entire country. While we all know UA wants back in, literally throwing money away for no reason.
 
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jetblastdubai
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Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Sat Jan 09, 2021 5:54 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
California is shutdown. LA the situation is totally out of control. NY has the quarantine.

Not the greatest time to start these routes. Loads will be bad, yields will be worse.

Plus, they are #5 on these routes. They need to fight their way back


Then again, being #5 in a market where the demand is so depressed might not be as bad as being #1 in a depressed market.

This is probably one of the very few opportunities for UA to get back into this traditionally premier market. The high-J 763 should help on the customer experience side of things and if you're not in the premium cabins, 2-3-2 seating beats almost anything. I would think that California, especially SFO originators, will be UA's strength.
 
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adamblang
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Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Sat Jan 09, 2021 6:49 pm

CALMSP wrote:
While we all know UA wants back in, literally throwing money away for no reason.

This is the only opportunity there's been in ages to get appropriate slots. It'll be a while before these flights make money but this is securing slots now, before air transportation starts to recover and the door closes again, as an investment in the future. Hardly "for no reason."
 
tphuang
Posts: 6302
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Sat Jan 09, 2021 7:06 pm

adamblang wrote:
CALMSP wrote:
While we all know UA wants back in, literally throwing money away for no reason.

This is the only opportunity there's been in ages to get appropriate slots. It'll be a while before these flights make money but this is securing slots now, before air transportation starts to recover and the door closes again, as an investment in the future. Hardly "for no reason."


From what I read, these are temporary slots due to slot waiver. It does not seem like they've gotten permanent slots yet. Which may be quite easy to get by now. I don't know. It's also hard to say how long JFK slot waiver will last since other airlines are not pushing for it as much as LGA/DCA slots.
 
Tkt96
Posts: 44
Joined: Sat Dec 12, 2015 9:07 pm

Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Sat Jan 09, 2021 7:23 pm

klwright69 wrote:
How are bookings for these JFK flights. It's 3 weeks out.


A 3 row SUV or Minivan would be a suitable equipment sub to LAX right now.
 
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adamblang
Posts: 1327
Joined: Sat Jul 19, 2008 5:47 pm

Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Sat Jan 09, 2021 7:32 pm

tphuang wrote:
adamblang wrote:
CALMSP wrote:
While we all know UA wants back in, literally throwing money away for no reason.

This is the only opportunity there's been in ages to get appropriate slots. It'll be a while before these flights make money but this is securing slots now, before air transportation starts to recover and the door closes again, as an investment in the future. Hardly "for no reason."


From what I read, these are temporary slots due to slot waiver. It does not seem like they've gotten permanent slots yet. Which may be quite easy to get by now. I don't know. It's also hard to say how long JFK slot waiver will last since other airlines are not pushing for it as much as LGA/DCA slots.

I can't find a link to back this up but I swear I read somewhere that United had applied for permanent slots and thought it highly likely they'd be granted them on account of some current incumbents permanently bowing out. (Which I interpreted to mean some slots are opening up due to some foreign carriers taking JFK out of their long-term plans so United needs to swoop in now to get those slots.)
 
AmericanAir88
Posts: 237
Joined: Wed May 27, 2020 8:59 pm

Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Sat Jan 09, 2021 10:01 pm

CALMSP wrote:
AmericanAir88 wrote:
klwright69 wrote:
How are bookings for these JFK flights. It's 3 weeks out.


On February 1st, it seems that JFK-SFO is quite booked. (Seat map) First class is almost completely full. LAX is not the same however.

I do expect bookings to get stronger as time gets closer and as months go on. JFK on UA basically opens up a whole new sector of NY State (Long Island) to UA. Not many people want to drive from LI to EWR.

Anyone else have booking statistics? Very curious about UA at JFK


actually, JFK-SFO on the 1st is extremely empty.


What do you mean? The 8am is about half full right now. First class lie flats are almost completely taken.
 
jetmatt777
Posts: 4531
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 2:16 am

Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Sat Jan 09, 2021 10:07 pm

AmericanAir88 wrote:
CALMSP wrote:
AmericanAir88 wrote:

On February 1st, it seems that JFK-SFO is quite booked. (Seat map) First class is almost completely full. LAX is not the same however.

I do expect bookings to get stronger as time gets closer and as months go on. JFK on UA basically opens up a whole new sector of NY State (Long Island) to UA. Not many people want to drive from LI to EWR.

Anyone else have booking statistics? Very curious about UA at JFK


actually, JFK-SFO on the 1st is extremely empty.


What do you mean? The 8am is about half full right now. First class lie flats are almost completely taken.


35% and 7%. Not exactly overflowing.

It's a bad time to start a route, especially THAT route. But you have to get in when the opportunity exists.
 
seat1a
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Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Sat Jan 09, 2021 10:29 pm

Did UA also fly from MIA to South America? Just curious what the routes were.
 
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SumChristianus
Posts: 697
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2018 3:00 am

Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Sat Jan 09, 2021 10:52 pm

jetmatt777 wrote:
AmericanAir88 wrote:
CALMSP wrote:

actually, JFK-SFO on the 1st is extremely empty.


What do you mean? The 8am is about half full right now. First class lie flats are almost completely taken.


35% and 7%. Not exactly overflowing.

It's a bad time to start a route, especially THAT route. But you have to get in when the opportunity exists.


Look at other days that week as well and JFK-LAX to see some lowest of the low loads.... Some days that first week have as low as 3 seats sold!

Hope it improves for UA on these, but they may need to add some other closer in spokes (IAH/IAD/ORD) in order to see Long Island/eastern NYC originating passengers. For only 3-4 flights a day and only to the opposite coast don't seem to really amount to much in terms of persuasive reasons for someone in this part of NYC to choose UA
UA DL LH NW AA WN
Do not go gentle into that good night ...
Rage, rage against the dying of the light
 
klwright69
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Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2000 4:22 am

Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Sun Jan 10, 2021 12:24 am

Well UA needs to hit back at B6. LUV is attacking them in other markets too. Strike when the irons hot. We are still weeks out guys. Loads can only get better with summer coming. If UA weren't taking the opportunity now.you would all be complaining about that too.
 
jayunited
Posts: 3442
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:03 am

Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Sun Jan 10, 2021 2:06 am

adamblang wrote:
I can't find a link to back this up but I swear I read somewhere that United had applied for permanent slots and thought it highly likely they'd be granted them on account of some current incumbents permanently bowing out. (Which I interpreted to mean some slots are opening up due to some foreign carriers taking JFK out of their long-term plans so United needs to swoop in now to get those slots.)


The last update which came before the holidays was United was still in negotiations for permanent slots but we will launch service using temporary slots those slots will expire on March 26, 2021 unless United reaches an agreement.

I think there will be more information coming out about JFK on or near January 20th just in time for UA's Q4 and full year 2020 results.

For those asking why UA is launching these routes at this time? This pandemic provided Kirby and United with an opening and he is taking it. Last year Kirby did acknowledge starting out these routes would loose money and United is prepared for it. However he also stated over the long term it is important for United to get back into JFK in a meaningful way. I still don't know what "A Meaningful Way" means so please don't ask.

It may seem strange to launch these routes with 763s instead of 752s. According to United Cargo they already have customers at all 3 airports buying out the space in the cargo holds. Also keep in mind United Airlines never closed United Cargo at JFK when United Airlines left. United has been trucking cargo between JFK and EWR ever since we left JFK, but JFK cargo still exist and still does move a lot of cargo for United Airlines.
 
evank516
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Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2017 12:15 am

Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Sun Jan 10, 2021 2:24 am

AmericanAir88 wrote:
I do expect bookings to get stronger as time gets closer and as months go on. JFK on UA basically opens up a whole new sector of NY State (Long Island) to UA. Not many people want to drive from LI to EWR.


In terms of opening up a whole new sector of the state of NY for transcon yes JFK does that for Long Islanders, but we use LGA too so it wasn’t a total loss for them. Ask a Long Islander if they’ll fly out of EWR though and we’ll probably look at you like you murdered a cat.
 
klwright69
Posts: 2736
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2000 4:22 am

Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Sun Jan 10, 2021 2:35 am

Yes, it's about the long game. I was on one of Continental's first nonstop flights to South America from IAH.
It had 7 passengers. Initial loads are not important as this story attests.
Loads may well suck at first. I am just curious how they look now.
It's now or never for UA at JFK.
 
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jetblastdubai
Posts: 2024
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Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Sun Jan 10, 2021 2:35 am

seat1a wrote:
Did UA also fly from MIA to South America? Just curious what the routes were.


Santiago, Buenos Aries, Sao Paulo, Rio and Caracas. MVD was a tag on EZE.

http://www.departedflights.com/UA0700international.html

Back to the topic at hand: Has UA announced what terminal/gates at JFK they secured for the initial service?
 
ContinentalEWR
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Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Sun Jan 10, 2021 2:48 am

seat1a wrote:
Did UA also fly from MIA to South America? Just curious what the routes were.


Off topic, but United acquired Pan Am's routes to Latin America for $135 million in 1991 as part of Pan Am's liquidation. For a time, UA considered MIA a Latin America hub/gateway, and operated 24 daily departures there, with service to 21 destinations. Starting in 1994 the operation was scaled back (it grew to around 36 daily departures by the mid-1990s) but then the schedule was pared back. Operations were from Concourse F. Post 9/11, UA's operations to Latin America from MIA were closed, as was the crew base at MIA. UA operated a domestic network to major cities from MIA to feed these flights.

United's MIA to Latin America routes in 1992 were as follows:

MIA-EZE-MVD (747)
MIA-EZE-SCL (747)
MIA-CCS (757)
MIA-GUA (737-300)
MIA-PTY (737-300)
MIA-GIG (747)
MIA-SJO (737-300)
MIA-SAL (737-300)
MIA-SCL (767-300)
MIA-GRU (767-300)
 
klwright69
Posts: 2736
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2000 4:22 am

Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Sun Jan 10, 2021 3:16 am

Terminal 7 is where the flights are headed. What about a lounge?
 
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SCFlyer
Posts: 700
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Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Sun Jan 10, 2021 4:30 am

klwright69 wrote:
Terminal 7 is where the flights are headed. What about a lounge?


The former UA lounge space in T7 was handed back to the authority and subsequently leased out to AS.

Basically UA has to negotiate with BA or AS if they were to provide lounge space for FF/J class customers.
 
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adambrau
Posts: 369
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Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Sun Jan 10, 2021 4:45 am

jayunited wrote:
adamblang wrote:
I can't find a link to back this up but I swear I read somewhere that United had applied for permanent slots and thought it highly likely they'd be granted them on account of some current incumbents permanently bowing out. (Which I interpreted to mean some slots are opening up due to some foreign carriers taking JFK out of their long-term plans so United needs to swoop in now to get those slots.)


The last update which came before the holidays was United was still in negotiations for permanent slots but we will launch service using temporary slots those slots will expire on March 26, 2021 unless United reaches an agreement.

I think there will be more information coming out about JFK on or near January 20th just in time for UA's Q4 and full year 2020 results.

For those asking why UA is launching these routes at this time? This pandemic provided Kirby and United with an opening and he is taking it. Last year Kirby did acknowledge starting out these routes would loose money and United is prepared for it. However he also stated over the long term it is important for United to get back into JFK in a meaningful way. I still don't know what "A Meaningful Way" means so please don't ask.

It may seem strange to launch these routes with 763s instead of 752s. According to United Cargo they already have customers at all 3 airports buying out the space in the cargo holds. Also keep in mind United Airlines never closed United Cargo at JFK when United Airlines left. United has been trucking cargo between JFK and EWR ever since we left JFK, but JFK cargo still exist and still does move a lot of cargo for United Airlines.


I work at JFK and ironically the UNITED sign was taken down just a few weeks before the UA announcement to return to JFK at the old cargo building. The AirTrain goes by it. While I am happy UA is returning to JFK for pax flights will the cargo division return to the old UA building? Just curious.
JFK Friendly
 
klwright69
Posts: 2736
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2000 4:22 am

Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Sun Jan 10, 2021 7:00 am

Will UA JFK ground handling be inhouse staff or a vendor?
Are any old JFK employees able to transfer back to JFK from LGA or EWR?
 
ual4life
Posts: 49
Joined: Wed Jan 13, 2010 8:10 am

Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Sun Jan 10, 2021 8:12 am

Anecdotally, I know of at least one person who is transferring back to JFK (temporarily)
NNVII
 
wn676
Posts: 1759
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2005 5:33 am

Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Sun Jan 10, 2021 11:14 am

klwright69 wrote:
Will UA JFK ground handling be inhouse staff or a vendor?
Are any old JFK employees able to transfer back to JFK from LGA or EWR?


I believe it will be UA employees above and below the wing.
Tiny, unreadable text leaves ample room for interpretation.
 
ContinentalEWR
Posts: 4307
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 2:50 am

Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Sun Jan 10, 2021 1:09 pm

SCFlyer wrote:
klwright69 wrote:
Terminal 7 is where the flights are headed. What about a lounge?


The former UA lounge space in T7 was handed back to the authority and subsequently leased out to AS.

Basically UA has to negotiate with BA or AS if they were to provide lounge space for FF/J class customers.


It will be interesting to see how this all plays out. Terminal 7 is set to close at some point (I believe it was by the end of 2022) and eventually, it will be demolished to make way for what will be Terminal 6, and an extension of the B6 facility, and include CUTE gates and FIS as well. I am not 100% sure that is really the case, but I seem to recall reading about it before the pandemic.

Anyway, BA and IB are set to relocate to Terminal 8, which is undergoing a $450 million expansion to add four or five gates and more physical space for what will eventually accommodate British Airways' check-in, premium lounges, and operations. Terminal 8 will essentially become the oneworld alliance hub for JFK, with all but JL operating from there (Japan Airlines is one of the four owners for Terminal One, alongside Korean Air, Lufthansa, and Air France) so it will be interesting to see where JL ends up once construction on the new T1 begins, whenever that may be.

I would think AS can move to T8 and close its lounge at T7 and either use the Flagship / Admiral's Club set up that AA has there, or carve out its own in a space if it can. That would free up the space in T7 for UA, which coincidentally, used to be the United Red Carpet Room at Terminal 7.
 
tphuang
Posts: 6302
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Sun Jan 10, 2021 1:24 pm

ContinentalEWR wrote:
SCFlyer wrote:
klwright69 wrote:
Terminal 7 is where the flights are headed. What about a lounge?


The former UA lounge space in T7 was handed back to the authority and subsequently leased out to AS.

Basically UA has to negotiate with BA or AS if they were to provide lounge space for FF/J class customers.


It will be interesting to see how this all plays out. Terminal 7 is set to close at some point (I believe it was by the end of 2022) and eventually, it will be demolished to make way for what will be Terminal 6, and an extension of the B6 facility, and include CUTE gates and FIS as well. I am not 100% sure that is really the case, but I seem to recall reading about it before the pandemic.

Anyway, BA and IB are set to relocate to Terminal 8, which is undergoing a $450 million expansion to add four or five gates and more physical space for what will eventually accommodate British Airways' check-in, premium lounges, and operations. Terminal 8 will essentially become the oneworld alliance hub for JFK, with all but JL operating from there (Japan Airlines is one of the four owners for Terminal One, alongside Korean Air, Lufthansa, and Air France) so it will be interesting to see where JL ends up once construction on the new T1 begins, whenever that may be.

I would think AS can move to T8 and close its lounge at T7 and either use the Flagship / Admiral's Club set up that AA has there, or carve out its own in a space if it can. That would free up the space in T7 for UA, which coincidentally, used to be the United Red Carpet Room at Terminal 7.


AS is unlikely to move to T-8 early when it has invested so much money to build its own lounge in T-7. Even if it does move out by this summer (very unlikely), it seems rather uneconomical for UA to spend time/money building its own lounge in T7 and only use it for 1 year.

UA's currently situation is temporary. It will need to find more space and slots. For UA to stay and be viable in JFK long term, it will end up either in T-4 or the new T-5/6/7. I'm sure it's having those discussions now.
 
ContinentalEWR
Posts: 4307
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 2:50 am

Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Sun Jan 10, 2021 1:36 pm

tphuang wrote:
ContinentalEWR wrote:
SCFlyer wrote:

The former UA lounge space in T7 was handed back to the authority and subsequently leased out to AS.

Basically UA has to negotiate with BA or AS if they were to provide lounge space for FF/J class customers.


It will be interesting to see how this all plays out. Terminal 7 is set to close at some point (I believe it was by the end of 2022) and eventually, it will be demolished to make way for what will be Terminal 6, and an extension of the B6 facility, and include CUTE gates and FIS as well. I am not 100% sure that is really the case, but I seem to recall reading about it before the pandemic.

Anyway, BA and IB are set to relocate to Terminal 8, which is undergoing a $450 million expansion to add four or five gates and more physical space for what will eventually accommodate British Airways' check-in, premium lounges, and operations. Terminal 8 will essentially become the oneworld alliance hub for JFK, with all but JL operating from there (Japan Airlines is one of the four owners for Terminal One, alongside Korean Air, Lufthansa, and Air France) so it will be interesting to see where JL ends up once construction on the new T1 begins, whenever that may be.

I would think AS can move to T8 and close its lounge at T7 and either use the Flagship / Admiral's Club set up that AA has there, or carve out its own in a space if it can. That would free up the space in T7 for UA, which coincidentally, used to be the United Red Carpet Room at Terminal 7.


AS is unlikely to move to T-8 early when it has invested so much money to build its own lounge in T-7. Even if it does move out by this summer (very unlikely), it seems rather uneconomical for UA to spend time/money building its own lounge in T7 and only use it for 1 year.

UA's currently situation is temporary. It will need to find more space and slots. For UA to stay and be viable in JFK long term, it will end up either in T-4 or the new T-5/6/7. I'm sure it's having those discussions now.


The cost of refurbishing a lounge is not inexpensive, but it has been done already, and T7 is due to close at some point. It's also possible the cost to AS for running the lounge and keeping it open is costly, given low traffic levels, pandemic protocols, and the potential for them to drop some JFK routes. I don't think AS will move by Summer 2021 (nor did I imply it will) but at some point beyond, it might. UA's situation at JFK isn't ideal but it will need a home for a long time before it gets i into a permanent space until a new T5-T6 joined complex is completed or in the expanded T1 (or move again temporarily to 4).
 
Seat1D
Posts: 71
Joined: Sun Oct 18, 2020 8:55 pm

Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Sun Jan 10, 2021 2:25 pm

jayunited wrote:
adamblang wrote:

For those asking why UA is launching these routes at this time? This pandemic provided Kirby and United with an opening and he is taking it. Last year Kirby did acknowledge starting out these routes would loose money and United is prepared for it. However he also stated over the long term it is important for United to get back into JFK in a meaningful way. I still don't know what "A Meaningful Way" means so please don't ask.

It may seem strange to launch these routes with 763s instead of 752s. According to United Cargo they already have customers at all 3 airports buying out the space in the cargo holds.United Airlines.


OK, so covid presented an opportunity for UA to get JFK slots. But why fly to LAX-SFO at this time. Why not choose different destinations that wont lose as much money with different planes. And you wont have to worry about a lounge as much as you would with premium transcons, I mean, I know, cargo, cargo, cargo, But surely they can fly cargo only flights and save having to put more fuel on the flights, the catering, the staffing. Then, when travel starts to rebound, kill JFK to XXX and commence JFK to LAX-SFO.

Also, its not like the other carriers on JFK to LAX-SFO are selling a ton of seats. Look at the B6 DL and AA seat mappers. Not much better.
Last edited by Seat1D on Sun Jan 10, 2021 2:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
Seat1D
Posts: 71
Joined: Sun Oct 18, 2020 8:55 pm

Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Sun Jan 10, 2021 2:27 pm

klwright69 wrote:
It's now or never for UA at JFK.


why
 
tphuang
Posts: 6302
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Sun Jan 10, 2021 2:32 pm

ContinentalEWR wrote:
tphuang wrote:
ContinentalEWR wrote:

It will be interesting to see how this all plays out. Terminal 7 is set to close at some point (I believe it was by the end of 2022) and eventually, it will be demolished to make way for what will be Terminal 6, and an extension of the B6 facility, and include CUTE gates and FIS as well. I am not 100% sure that is really the case, but I seem to recall reading about it before the pandemic.

Anyway, BA and IB are set to relocate to Terminal 8, which is undergoing a $450 million expansion to add four or five gates and more physical space for what will eventually accommodate British Airways' check-in, premium lounges, and operations. Terminal 8 will essentially become the oneworld alliance hub for JFK, with all but JL operating from there (Japan Airlines is one of the four owners for Terminal One, alongside Korean Air, Lufthansa, and Air France) so it will be interesting to see where JL ends up once construction on the new T1 begins, whenever that may be.

I would think AS can move to T8 and close its lounge at T7 and either use the Flagship / Admiral's Club set up that AA has there, or carve out its own in a space if it can. That would free up the space in T7 for UA, which coincidentally, used to be the United Red Carpet Room at Terminal 7.


AS is unlikely to move to T-8 early when it has invested so much money to build its own lounge in T-7. Even if it does move out by this summer (very unlikely), it seems rather uneconomical for UA to spend time/money building its own lounge in T7 and only use it for 1 year.

UA's currently situation is temporary. It will need to find more space and slots. For UA to stay and be viable in JFK long term, it will end up either in T-4 or the new T-5/6/7. I'm sure it's having those discussions now.


The cost of refurbishing a lounge is not inexpensive, but it has been done already, and T7 is due to close at some point. It's also possible the cost to AS for running the lounge and keeping it open is costly, given low traffic levels, pandemic protocols, and the potential for them to drop some JFK routes. I don't think AS will move by Summer 2021 (nor did I imply it will) but at some point beyond, it might. UA's situation at JFK isn't ideal but it will need a home for a long time before it gets i into a permanent space until a new T5-T6 joined complex is completed or in the expanded T1 (or move again temporarily to 4).


IIRC, AS said they spent $25 million to build the lounge at JFK + another one at SEA. It took them quite a while to build their T-7 lounge. I think they are going to want to make best of their investment.

As for UA, they could try to work something out with T-4 or with JetBlue at T-5. JetBlue doesn't need to complete it's terminal project for another carrier to move in to T-5. I don't think T-1 is option for a while.
 
ContinentalEWR
Posts: 4307
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 2:50 am

Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Sun Jan 10, 2021 2:33 pm

Seat1D wrote:
klwright69 wrote:
It's now or never for UA at JFK.


why


I'd agree. The opportunity was there for UA to come back to JFK and it has decided to do so, with arguably a much better product and brand than what it had when it left, but demand will remain muted for a significant amount of time. UA's success in the Greater NY market isn't defined by what it has at JFK. It helps for sure, but it is not in any way a defining moment for the airline.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 9442
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Sun Jan 10, 2021 3:36 pm

Seat1D wrote:

OK, so covid presented an opportunity for UA to get JFK slots. But why fly to LAX-SFO at this time. Why not choose different destinations that wont lose as much money with different planes. And you wont have to worry about a lounge as much as you would with premium transcons, I mean, I know, cargo, cargo, cargo...


I would infer that UA's primary goal at JFK isn't chasing low fare passengers (they don't have the cost structure to go head-to-head with B6 in coach) but instead premium transcon passengers. Maybe it's individuals; maybe it's corporate contracts if they've been hearing a demand for flights from JFK instead of EWR. Yes, they're going to need a lounge for that crowd.
 
NYCDM
Posts: 29
Joined: Wed Apr 24, 2019 4:31 am

Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Sun Jan 10, 2021 3:46 pm

adambrau wrote:
jayunited wrote:
adamblang wrote:
I can't find a link to back this up but I swear I read somewhere that United had applied for permanent slots and thought it highly likely they'd be granted them on account of some current incumbents permanently bowing out. (Which I interpreted to mean some slots are opening up due to some foreign carriers taking JFK out of their long-term plans so United needs to swoop in now to get those slots.)


The last update which came before the holidays was United was still in negotiations for permanent slots but we will launch service using temporary slots those slots will expire on March 26, 2021 unless United reaches an agreement.

I think there will be more information coming out about JFK on or near January 20th just in time for UA's Q4 and full year 2020 results.

For those asking why UA is launching these routes at this time? This pandemic provided Kirby and United with an opening and he is taking it. Last year Kirby did acknowledge starting out these routes would loose money and United is prepared for it. However he also stated over the long term it is important for United to get back into JFK in a meaningful way. I still don't know what "A Meaningful Way" means so please don't ask.

It may seem strange to launch these routes with 763s instead of 752s. According to United Cargo they already have customers at all 3 airports buying out the space in the cargo holds. Also keep in mind United Airlines never closed United Cargo at JFK when United Airlines left. United has been trucking cargo between JFK and EWR ever since we left JFK, but JFK cargo still exist and still does move a lot of cargo for United Airlines.


I work at JFK and ironically the UNITED sign was taken down just a few weeks before the UA announcement to return to JFK at the old cargo building. The AirTrain goes by it. While I am happy UA is returning to JFK for pax flights will the cargo division return to the old UA building? Just curious.


Do you have any pictures of new United branding going up at T7? Curious what it will be like — right now, branding is BA/AS dominate
 
CALMSP
Posts: 3649
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 3:18 am

Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Sun Jan 10, 2021 4:02 pm

adambrau wrote:
jayunited wrote:
adamblang wrote:
I can't find a link to back this up but I swear I read somewhere that United had applied for permanent slots and thought it highly likely they'd be granted them on account of some current incumbents permanently bowing out. (Which I interpreted to mean some slots are opening up due to some foreign carriers taking JFK out of their long-term plans so United needs to swoop in now to get those slots.)


The last update which came before the holidays was United was still in negotiations for permanent slots but we will launch service using temporary slots those slots will expire on March 26, 2021 unless United reaches an agreement.

I think there will be more information coming out about JFK on or near January 20th just in time for UA's Q4 and full year 2020 results.

For those asking why UA is launching these routes at this time? This pandemic provided Kirby and United with an opening and he is taking it. Last year Kirby did acknowledge starting out these routes would loose money and United is prepared for it. However he also stated over the long term it is important for United to get back into JFK in a meaningful way. I still don't know what "A Meaningful Way" means so please don't ask.

It may seem strange to launch these routes with 763s instead of 752s. According to United Cargo they already have customers at all 3 airports buying out the space in the cargo holds. Also keep in mind United Airlines never closed United Cargo at JFK when United Airlines left. United has been trucking cargo between JFK and EWR ever since we left JFK, but JFK cargo still exist and still does move a lot of cargo for United Airlines.


I work at JFK and ironically the UNITED sign was taken down just a few weeks before the UA announcement to return to JFK at the old cargo building. The AirTrain goes by it. While I am happy UA is returning to JFK for pax flights will the cargo division return to the old UA building? Just curious.


They are in the former CO cargo warehouse, so no need to go back to the sUA warehouse.
 
FlyHossD
Posts: 2176
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 3:45 pm

Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Sun Jan 10, 2021 5:06 pm

Lufthansa411 wrote:
HunterATL wrote:
Nicknuzzii wrote:
Wait till United finds out how much slower JFK demand is returning compared to EWR.


United's principal goal is not to capture NYC originating traffic; United seeks to capture Bay Area and LA originating traffic that prefers JFK over EWR, especially West Coast corporate contract clients who were not consulted before United left JFK.


Exactly. UA drastically underestimated reactions of some blue-chip corporate clients thinking they would follow UA from JFK to EWR. Spoiler alert: they were not and abandoned UA for DL and AA and not just in NYC but for their wider travel agreements. This is a move to try and win back some of that corporate business. Even if JFK is designed as a loss leader, the overall money made on winning back corporate agreements systemwide will outweigh as long as the price is right, as hinted at by Kirby. An expensive lesson for UA to learn.


Agreed - IMHO, UAL is still suffering from the failed Smisek regime, both in decision making (and it's after effects) and paying for his ethics (the lack thereof).
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
CALMSP
Posts: 3649
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 3:18 am

Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Sun Jan 10, 2021 5:47 pm

FlyHossD wrote:
Lufthansa411 wrote:
HunterATL wrote:

United's principal goal is not to capture NYC originating traffic; United seeks to capture Bay Area and LA originating traffic that prefers JFK over EWR, especially West Coast corporate contract clients who were not consulted before United left JFK.


Exactly. UA drastically underestimated reactions of some blue-chip corporate clients thinking they would follow UA from JFK to EWR. Spoiler alert: they were not and abandoned UA for DL and AA and not just in NYC but for their wider travel agreements. This is a move to try and win back some of that corporate business. Even if JFK is designed as a loss leader, the overall money made on winning back corporate agreements systemwide will outweigh as long as the price is right, as hinted at by Kirby. An expensive lesson for UA to learn.


Agreed - IMHO, UAL is still suffering from the failed Smisek regime, both in decision making (and it's after effects) and paying for his ethics (the lack thereof).


still suffering from Smisek? How so? Based on the financials the last few years, there hasn't been a single piece of suffering.
 
ContinentalEWR
Posts: 4307
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 2:50 am

Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Sun Jan 10, 2021 6:41 pm

FlyHossD wrote:
Lufthansa411 wrote:
HunterATL wrote:

United's principal goal is not to capture NYC originating traffic; United seeks to capture Bay Area and LA originating traffic that prefers JFK over EWR, especially West Coast corporate contract clients who were not consulted before United left JFK.


Exactly. UA drastically underestimated reactions of some blue-chip corporate clients thinking they would follow UA from JFK to EWR. Spoiler alert: they were not and abandoned UA for DL and AA and not just in NYC but for their wider travel agreements. This is a move to try and win back some of that corporate business. Even if JFK is designed as a loss leader, the overall money made on winning back corporate agreements systemwide will outweigh as long as the price is right, as hinted at by Kirby. An expensive lesson for UA to learn.


Agreed - IMHO, UAL is still suffering from the failed Smisek regime, both in decision making (and it's after effects) and paying for his ethics (the lack thereof).


Couldn't be further from reality, IMHO. UA is a very different company now from the Smisek days. It is run by one of the most competent and proven CEOs in the business and has made measurable improvements for at least 2-3 years in performance. Kirby, having been at a top role at AA previously, knows very well what the transcon market's value can be, and is positioning UA for the future, not the present, by returning there. Did UA lose corporate business due to the messy merger with CO, poorly executed and done on the cheap, for sure, but we're 11 years past the merger and several years into a whole new company.
 
Lufthansa411
Posts: 351
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2008 12:54 am

Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Sun Jan 10, 2021 11:00 pm

ContinentalEWR wrote:
FlyHossD wrote:
Lufthansa411 wrote:

Exactly. UA drastically underestimated reactions of some blue-chip corporate clients thinking they would follow UA from JFK to EWR. Spoiler alert: they were not and abandoned UA for DL and AA and not just in NYC but for their wider travel agreements. This is a move to try and win back some of that corporate business. Even if JFK is designed as a loss leader, the overall money made on winning back corporate agreements systemwide will outweigh as long as the price is right, as hinted at by Kirby. An expensive lesson for UA to learn.


Agreed - IMHO, UAL is still suffering from the failed Smisek regime, both in decision making (and it's after effects) and paying for his ethics (the lack thereof).


Couldn't be further from reality, IMHO. UA is a very different company now from the Smisek days. It is run by one of the most competent and proven CEOs in the business and has made measurable improvements for at least 2-3 years in performance. Kirby, having been at a top role at AA previously, knows very well what the transcon market's value can be, and is positioning UA for the future, not the present, by returning there. Did UA lose corporate business due to the messy merger with CO, poorly executed and done on the cheap, for sure, but we're 11 years past the merger and several years into a whole new company.


I think you missed the message here. I completely agree with you that UA is a very different company now, and the leadership team has made amazing progress at turning things around in almost all areas. That being said, it doesn't mean that the after-effects aren't still there, even if the new leadership team has developed great strategies to mitigate them. A permanent decision like leaving JFK will always have consequences, even if they can mostly be mitigated, and trust takes a very long time to gain back.

It is like a CEO ordering new aircraft and several years later the next CEO has to decide what to do with them: the decisions were made before his time, but the new CEO still has to deal with the consequences of that old CEOs decision, even if he wasn't a part of it.
Nothing in life is to be feared; it is only to be understood.
 
ContinentalEWR
Posts: 4307
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 2:50 am

Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Sun Jan 10, 2021 11:14 pm

Lufthansa411 wrote:
ContinentalEWR wrote:
FlyHossD wrote:

Agreed - IMHO, UAL is still suffering from the failed Smisek regime, both in decision making (and it's after effects) and paying for his ethics (the lack thereof).


Couldn't be further from reality, IMHO. UA is a very different company now from the Smisek days. It is run by one of the most competent and proven CEOs in the business and has made measurable improvements for at least 2-3 years in performance. Kirby, having been at a top role at AA previously, knows very well what the transcon market's value can be, and is positioning UA for the future, not the present, by returning there. Did UA lose corporate business due to the messy merger with CO, poorly executed and done on the cheap, for sure, but we're 11 years past the merger and several years into a whole new company.


I think you missed the message here. I completely agree with you that UA is a very different company now, and the leadership team has made amazing progress at turning things around in almost all areas. That being said, it doesn't mean that the after-effects aren't still there, even if the new leadership team has developed great strategies to mitigate them. A permanent decision like leaving JFK will always have consequences, even if they can mostly be mitigated, and trust takes a very long time to gain back.

It is like a CEO ordering new aircraft and several years later the next CEO has to decide what to do with them: the decisions were made before his time, but the new CEO still has to deal with the consequences of that old CEOs decision, even if he wasn't a part of it.


I don't think I'm missing the point at all, actually. The point made by the previous poster was that UA is essentially forever damaged by the Smisek era. UA is far from being an exceptional airline in the good sense, but it has made measurable improvements before COVID and has managed the crisis relatively well. Of course the decision to decamp from JFK will have lasting effects that can't be easily reversed. UA was at 6 x daily to LAX and 7 x daily to SFO before it closed the station in 2015 and is now getting back in with 2 flights to each to start. But, the landscape has changed and just like every other US airline with a footprint (or a desired one) in the Greater NY Area market, they're trying to position for when things return to some sort of normal. Frank Lorenzo almost destroyed Continental in the 1980s but it came back strong and performed very well from 1994 until it merged into UA.

Your analogy about one CEO ordering aircraft and the next one cancelling an order, and having to deal with the consequences of the previous CEO is something EVERY company has to deal with. That doesn't relegate them to the dustbin.
 
klwright69
Posts: 2736
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2000 4:22 am

Re: UA Plans to Return to JFK in 2021

Mon Jan 11, 2021 1:56 am

Yes, only 2x daily to SFO and LAX. But they have to start somewhere.
And terminal 7? They have to start somewhere.
Yes, now or never. Well, maybe not never, ever, but for a very long time.

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