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ikolkyo
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DL parks some A220s

Thu Oct 01, 2020 3:38 am

Looks like they're finally pulling the trigger
#BREAKINGNEWS: According to sources,
@Delta
is going to ground its entire
@Airbus
#A220 fleet. They will begin ferrying them all to San Bernardino tomorrow morning. It is unknown why the carrier is suddenly grounding its A220 fleet.

Image
https://twitter.com/BDFphotography/stat ... 78753?s=20

edit: I want to add that I believe this signals incoming pilot furloughs.
Last edited by ikolkyo on Thu Oct 01, 2020 3:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
Antarius
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Re: DL parks A220s

Thu Oct 01, 2020 3:47 am

That seems really odd. The A220 is perfectly sized for times like this.
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avier
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Re: DL parks A220s

Thu Oct 01, 2020 3:54 am

Are these due to any engine issues of P&W GTF or just grounding due to reduced flying demand?
 
0newair0
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Re: DL parks A220s

Thu Oct 01, 2020 3:54 am

This is false. The ENTIRE A220 fleet is not being parked. A portion of the fleet will be parked for several months.
That's not how this works! That's not how any of this works!
 
deltairlines
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Re: DL parks A220s

Thu Oct 01, 2020 3:55 am

Delta had planned on the initial round of furloughs for pilots on Oct. 1 (they've since been delayed) and the new pilot displacement bid was going into place effective then. The A220 fleet was hit real hard since that was the fleet that had the most junior pilots, so they were going to have to park them until they had more pilots re-trained to operate that type.
 
jbs2886
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Re: DL parks A220s

Thu Oct 01, 2020 3:56 am

DL narrow body thread has a discussion and explanation. Has to do with pilot changes.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: DL parks A220s

Thu Oct 01, 2020 3:56 am

This topic is a big enough deal it is worth discussing in a side topic.

My impression is that due to all the fleet retirements, the less senior A220 and some 717 pilots are being furloughed. Due to the various other pilots going through retraining, the is a temporary parking until Delta can put everyone into their new seat.

Unfortunately, airlines are preparing for mass furloughs.

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KlimaBXsst
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Re: DL parks A220s

Thu Oct 01, 2020 3:59 am

Are the 220s all based in ATL?
Aesthetically the A 340 got it right!
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: DL parks A220s

Thu Oct 01, 2020 4:00 am

Being discussed extensively over here on the DL Narrowbody thread:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1438343&p=22443887#p22443887

Parking A220's since with the pending furloughs that were to take effect 10/1, that were at the last minutes postponed until at least 11/1 (or longer or not at all...), DL would not have been able to staff all of the aircraft. The A220 is the most junior fleet in the system and something like 75% of the FO's were on the furlough list.

Despite the pause on any furlough action for now, the Oct schedule was set and bids awarded based on projected flying and with other fleet types easily picking up the slack.

9 are being send to SBD for storage tomorrow, for the time being.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: DL parks A220s

Thu Oct 01, 2020 4:02 am

No.

DL has two pilot bases for the A220.
SLC & NYC
A SEA crew based was to open pre-Covid but that was withdrawn for now.

DL doesn't base aircraft, just pilot bases.
A220s were seen extensively in SLC, SEA, and NYC, but also were used on DTW & MSP - Texas flying (DFW, IAH, AUS)
 
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Re: DL parks A220s

Thu Oct 01, 2020 4:10 am

This kind of shows the negative side of basing everything on seniority. A more logical approach might have a pilot evaluating risk and reward. You can fly the 777 for more money, better destinations, and more days off. Or you can fly the 737 for less money, bland destinations, but more job security. This would avoid the massive retraining costs. And in all honesty a 777 pilot would be older and should have saved up money for a rainy day.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: DL parks A220s

Thu Oct 01, 2020 4:14 am

PSU.DTW.SCE had an excellent post in the DL narrowbody thread, where the comment on the A220:
. If DL does end up furloughing pilots, they will be unable to fully staff the aircraft due to training capacity/backlog and may have to store some active and future delivery aircraft.


The furlough was aborted after the flight schedule was set.

As already noted, Delta has no shortage of aircraft.

It is going to take months to sort out pilot retraining.
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KLMatSJC
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Re: DL parks A220s

Thu Oct 01, 2020 4:34 am

ikolkyo wrote:
Looks like they're finally pulling the trigger
#BREAKINGNEWS: According to sources,
@Delta
is going to ground its entire
@Airbus
#A220 fleet. They will begin ferrying them all to San Bernardino tomorrow morning. It is unknown why the carrier is suddenly grounding its A220 fleet.

Image
https://twitter.com/BDFphotography/stat ... 78753?s=20

edit: I want to add that I believe this signals incoming pilot furloughs.

I think that last CRJ-200 will be taking all the crews back to SLC too. It's only scheduled to be on the ground for 30 minutes.
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PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: DL parks A220s

Thu Oct 01, 2020 4:46 am

Yes.....the OO CR2 is to ferry crews back to SLC.
 
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Re: DL parks A220s

Thu Oct 01, 2020 5:28 am

Delta probably needs to park more planes. Demand isn't back enough. This doesn't mean the A220 is all being parked. We could see delta do more of these for different plane types to come. I expect delta to park more planes.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: DL parks A220s

Thu Oct 01, 2020 5:44 am

Tomorrow DL is parking 9 of the 31 A220s.

That is a false statement, please refer to the narrowbody and widebody thread.
DL is still actively returning aircraft to service, on average about 5 a week.
Yes some of this is to offset retirements, but still they are adding more aircraft back than the are retiring and demand is not really going backwards.
 
FlyGuyNash
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Re: DL parks A220s

Thu Oct 01, 2020 5:57 am

Depending on the outcome of negotiations with the union or CARES 2 will probably determine how long these stay parked, these could be reactivated within days probably. Our union has a meeting tomorrow where we should find out more about our current tentative agreement for cost cutting but they should be soon negotiating a no furlough agreement but seeing how much the senior guys don't want to take a 15% hour cut, I am not convinced we will get a agreement.
 
737max8
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Re: DL parks A220s

Thu Oct 01, 2020 6:03 am

I was wondering why DFW-SLC switched to a A320...now I know
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MIflyer12
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Re: DL parks A220s

Thu Oct 01, 2020 10:37 am

lightsaber wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE had an excellent post in the DL narrowbody thread, where the comment on the A220:
. If DL does end up furloughing pilots, they will be unable to fully staff the aircraft due to training capacity/backlog and may have to store some active and future delivery aircraft.


The furlough was aborted after the flight schedule was set.


I think the word is delayed, not aborted. Many sources - here's one - report delayed to Nov. 1. https://www.cnbc.com/2020/09/22/delta-w ... -says.html
 
75driver
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Re: DL parks A220s

Thu Oct 01, 2020 10:41 am

This was inevitable and quite frankly they need to be parking more metal and quit returning aircraft to service. We are still flying way over capacity and senior crew will not accept junior 220 drivers avoiding furlough when they are getting kicked to the curb or reduced hours. I don’t see many roads to a no-furlough deal either as those senior crews left are more hardliners. I think most who would support a no-furlough deal already took the VEOP’s. The 220’s are collateral damage in the struggle between pilots/company and the economy/travel industry. If seniority was spread among the fleets you wouldn’t see the 220’s parked.
 
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Re: DL parks A220s

Thu Oct 01, 2020 10:55 am

I also think a SMALL part of this is the airline CEO’s across the board helping to push the govt to get moving on the CARES II, by saying, see we said we would have to ground planes and furlough.... sad that the employees are pawns in some of this
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Re: DL parks A220s

Thu Oct 01, 2020 11:53 am

So how will this work. Can Delta force a say higher pay level 737 or A319/320 pilot to fly the A220 or will they hold their pay scale but fly the A220. Was just curious if Delta can force a higher seniority pilot to fly an entry level aircraft. And if not what do they do with the excess higher seniority pilots who refuse to take a less seniority assignment on the A220
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MIflyer12
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Re: DL parks A220s

Thu Oct 01, 2020 12:17 pm

The phrase you're looking for is 'displacement bid.' They reduce pilot counts on types that are overstaffed (say, for example, 737, with the retirement of the 737-700s) and those (likely more senior) pilots get pushed onto other types. Refusing is not an option - one flies what his seniority holds. Continuing that example, you'll continue to get 737 minimum pay even if you're not flying while they schedule the retraining.
 
Woodreau
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Re: DL parks A220s

Thu Oct 01, 2020 12:33 pm

klm617 wrote:
So how will this work. Can Delta force a say higher pay level 737 or A319/320 pilot to fly the A220 or will they hold their pay scale but fly the A220. Was just curious if Delta can force a higher seniority pilot to fly an entry level aircraft. And if not what do they do with the excess higher seniority pilots who refuse to take a less seniority assignment on the A220


Its musical chairs now.... The music has stopped, but instead of everyone rushing to try to find a seat - you go in order - #1 guy picks his seat and sits down, people left without a seat - the A220/717 First Officers are furloughed. now Delta needs to train new A220 pilots. that takes time.

Pilots get paid for their seat and aircraft they are currently assigned to while they are waiting for training, and when they complete training, they get paid for their seat on the aircraft they just completed training for. Junior captains, get to become senior first officers again.

You dont get to refuse downgrade - either you have a job or you don't. If you refuse to bid for downgrade, then its like saying give me whatever is left over, but there's more pilots than there are spots, there will be nothing left over so that means you are furloughed. (although specific language in some contracts might give you the junior position, and furlough a junior pilot - it depends on the contract)
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Airbuser
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Re: DL parks A220s

Thu Oct 01, 2020 12:57 pm

The cost of parking airplanes is amazing. Pilots awaiting training are still getting paid. At my airline I have a mate that has not set foot on an airplane since February and is awaiting training since his plane is in a desert somewhere. He is actually making more money now due to contract. He is supposed to go to training on his new plane in November but that will be pushed back because of unforeseen training backlogs. Broken simulators, no check airmen, and pilots needing more training than the bare minimum cause massive delays. I once had a simulator break and that gave me almost two months off before they could get me back to training.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: DL parks some A220s

Thu Oct 01, 2020 1:10 pm

I'm surprised they didn't delay the parking of these select A220s when they delayed the furloughs to 11/1... but they're running the airline, not me.
 
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Re: DL parks A220s

Thu Oct 01, 2020 1:16 pm

KLMatSJC wrote:
I think that last CRJ-200 will be taking all the crews back to SLC too. It's only scheduled to be on the ground for 30 minutes.

Maybe the old aviation meme will finally become true!

Airbuser wrote:
The cost of parking airplanes is amazing. Pilots awaiting training are still getting paid. At my airline I have a mate that has not set foot on an airplane since February and is awaiting training since his plane is in a desert somewhere. He is actually making more money now due to contract. He is supposed to go to training on his new plane in November but that will be pushed back because of unforeseen training backlogs. Broken simulators, no check airmen, and pilots needing more training than the bare minimum cause massive delays. I once had a simulator break and that gave me almost two months off before they could get me back to training.

Juan Brown from Blancolario channel on u2b says he got trained for a plane he never flew in revenue service, since by the time he got scheduled for and finished his training there was another displacement bid and he got bumped off it and on to a third type.
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Re: DL parks some A220s

Thu Oct 01, 2020 1:18 pm

NO !...the reason is that DL has not enough pilots trained for the type so it's possible that DL parks them until a training resolution is set in motion. Also, remember that a few weeks ago DL asked to delay the deliveries of acfts ?.....There you are.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: DL parks A220s

Thu Oct 01, 2020 1:23 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
PSU.DTW.SCE had an excellent post in the DL narrowbody thread, where the comment on the A220:
. If DL does end up furloughing pilots, they will be unable to fully staff the aircraft due to training capacity/backlog and may have to store some active and future delivery aircraft.


The furlough was aborted after the flight schedule was set.


I think the word is delayed, not aborted. Many sources - here's one - report delayed to Nov. 1. https://www.cnbc.com/2020/09/22/delta-w ... -says.html

You are correct. Furloughs were abruptly felayed after the schedule was set. I used the jargon of my industry (abort an opperation after the stop stop stop call).
To others:
The displacement bids must be chaos. I have no insight into DL's status. What I do know is that if a large pool of A220 pilots are to be displaced, I inherently doubt DL was staffed with enough instructor pilots for this mass transition.

DL retired the MD-90, MD-80, and 73G rapidly. The 777s are being retired which creates displacements from the top to the A220.

We haven't really discussed the thousands of once Captains now copilots, probably on different Aircraft.

Of everything Delta had to worry about, making sure all aircraft of a type were crewed probably was one, as probably not possible.

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MIflyer12
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Re: DL parks some A220s

Thu Oct 01, 2020 2:13 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
I'm surprised they didn't delay the parking of these select A220s when they delayed the furloughs to 11/1... but they're running the airline, not me.


Not trying to reply to myself but too much time has passed to allow me to edit...

That extra month bought DL some time to run more pilots through retraining following a displacement bid. Yet they didn't use it. How hard would it have been to delay the parking of nine A220s for a month, too? (Rhetorical, unless you've got some great knowledge of the details of scheduling/parking aircraft!)
 
FlyGuyNash
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Re: DL parks some A220s

Thu Oct 01, 2020 2:24 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
I'm surprised they didn't delay the parking of these select A220s when they delayed the furloughs to 11/1... but they're running the airline, not me.


Not trying to reply to myself but too much time has passed to allow me to edit...

That extra month bought DL some time to run more pilots through retraining following a displacement bid. Yet they didn't use it. How hard would it have been to delay the parking of nine A220s for a month, too? (Rhetorical, unless you've got some great knowledge of the details of scheduling/parking aircraft!)


Looking at the network sheet, network had the plans to reduce the 220 flying well before the announcement to delay furloughs to 1 NOV. It probably is just easier and a cheaper option at this point to just go with the plan as scheduled and wait and see what happens. If CARES 2 happens or a deal with the union, I would expect these will get pulled out in no time.
 
deltairlines
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Re: DL parks some A220s

Thu Oct 01, 2020 2:27 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
I'm surprised they didn't delay the parking of these select A220s when they delayed the furloughs to 11/1... but they're running the airline, not me.


Not trying to reply to myself but too much time has passed to allow me to edit...

That extra month bought DL some time to run more pilots through retraining following a displacement bid. Yet they didn't use it. How hard would it have been to delay the parking of nine A220s for a month, too? (Rhetorical, unless you've got some great knowledge of the details of scheduling/parking aircraft!)


There's a lot more to it than saying "voila! We have the pilots available, now we can fly the parked planes!".

For starters, you also need to have enough flight attendants to roster and fly those planes. There's the matter of network planning - when network planned this schedule a month ago, they assumed they didn't have these nine frames; thus, I'm sure they made decisions based on what they had available - moving A319, A320, 737s, 717s, etc. onto these routes. For example, I know DTW got a number of 717 routes back to replace the A220 - it's not simply a matter of moving the 717s out and putting the A220s back in - that disrupts scheduling (those 717s are probably not just doing out and backs all day) quite a bit. There's also logistics involved - an airport might have only a certain number of gates that can handle the A220 - but since network knew that the A220 wouldn't be going in there, it might have allocated that stand to be used by an E170 or CRJ.
 
goboeing
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Re: DL parks A220s

Thu Oct 01, 2020 3:01 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
This kind of shows the negative side of basing everything on seniority. A more logical approach might have a pilot evaluating risk and reward. You can fly the 777 for more money, better destinations, and more days off. Or you can fly the 737 for less money, bland destinations, but more job security. This would avoid the massive retraining costs. And in all honesty a 777 pilot would be older and should have saved up money for a rainy day.


Uh, no.

That's not a more logical approach and there's a reason why it hasn't been that way for about 80 years.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: DL parks some A220s

Thu Oct 01, 2020 3:06 pm

deltairlines wrote:
There's a lot more to it than saying "voila! We have the pilots available, now we can fly the parked planes!".

For starters, you also need to have enough flight attendants to roster and fly those planes.

There's also logistics involved - an airport might have only a certain number of gates that can handle the A220 - but since network knew that the A220 wouldn't be going in there, it might have allocated that stand to be used by an E170 or CRJ.


They're not short of FAs. Any gate that used to be able to handle an A220 can still handle an A220, and they're not exactly pressed by high gate utilization (except perhaps SLC while construction continues).
 
Vctony
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Re: DL parks some A220s

Thu Oct 01, 2020 3:10 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
deltairlines wrote:
There's a lot more to it than saying "voila! We have the pilots available, now we can fly the parked planes!".

For starters, you also need to have enough flight attendants to roster and fly those planes.

There's also logistics involved - an airport might have only a certain number of gates that can handle the A220 - but since network knew that the A220 wouldn't be going in there, it might have allocated that stand to be used by an E170 or CRJ.


They're not short of FAs. Any gate that used to be able to handle an A220 can still handle an A220, and they're not exactly pressed by high gate utilization (except perhaps SLC while construction continues).


Aren't most FAs cross trained on all aircraft types serving their base?
 
DLASFlyer
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Re: DL parks some A220s

Thu Oct 01, 2020 3:24 pm

Vctony wrote:
Aren't most FAs cross trained on all aircraft types serving their base?


I believe Delta FAs are trained on all aircraft in the Delta fleet.
 
Italianflyer
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Re: DL parks some A220s

Thu Oct 01, 2020 3:32 pm

Aren't most FAs cross trained on all aircraft types serving their base?[/quote]

FAs, in North America at least, are trained on all aircraft types in the fleet.....regardless of domicile.
 
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Rajahdhani
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Re: DL parks some A220s

Thu Oct 01, 2020 3:42 pm

DLASFlyer wrote:
Vctony wrote:
Aren't most FAs cross trained on all aircraft types serving their base?


I believe Delta FAs are trained on all aircraft in the Delta fleet.


Can we confirm this? Not doubting, but just wanting some confirmation.

As a point of measure - what is/would be aircraft specific so much so that a FA would require certification?

Additionally, we've spoken some about the pilots affected by these massive changes. If FAs are not aircraft specific - how did/will the furloughs happen? Solely on seniority?

May G*d Bless those that took the voluntary packages. I mean, their voices are moderation in these sorts of discussions are lost, but I guess I have to thank those individuals for making such a huge sacrifice. Hopefully it is not in vain, and will help the carrier get back on its feet soon.

On another note - when demand does begin to grow again - due to their costs(lower operating costs, low crew costs, and decently priced aircraft to begin with), are we likely to see more A220s come on brand/back quickly? How does this move affect that move, in future?
 
Alias1024
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Re: DL parks some A220s

Thu Oct 01, 2020 4:15 pm

Rajahdhani wrote:
Additionally, we've spoken some about the pilots affected by these massive changes. If FAs are not aircraft specific - how did/will the furloughs happen? Solely on seniority?


As of now Delta does not intend to furlough any flight attendants but if it were to happen it would be in inverse seniority order, just as with pilots.

They do not plan to furlough flight attendants because they have been able to use a variety of programs to reduce staffing and "share" flying. These include early retirement, unpaid leaves of absence, split lines (work half a month for half pay and another flight attendant works the other half), and temporary transfers into other divisions where work was brought in-house.
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32andBelow
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Re: DL parks some A220s

Thu Oct 01, 2020 4:29 pm

You can just keep some “lucky” a220 qualified crew on an extra couple months. Straight seniority makes no sense in a time like this
 
DLASFlyer
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Re: DL parks some A220s

Thu Oct 01, 2020 4:52 pm

32andBelow wrote:
You can just keep some “lucky” a220 qualified crew on an extra couple months. Straight seniority makes no sense in a time like this


Delta cannot do this per its contract with pilots. The airline is not in bankruptcy.
 
sxf24
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Re: DL parks some A220s

Thu Oct 01, 2020 5:52 pm

The parking is due to an AD related to manufacturing problems and structural cracking.
 
VV
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Re: DL parks A220s

Thu Oct 01, 2020 5:57 pm

0newair0 wrote:
This is false. The ENTIRE A220 fleet is not being parked. A portion of the fleet will be parked for several months.


Are they going to take delivery of more A220 then?
 
0newair0
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Re: DL parks A220s

Thu Oct 01, 2020 6:00 pm

VV wrote:
0newair0 wrote:
This is false. The ENTIRE A220 fleet is not being parked. A portion of the fleet will be parked for several months.


Are they going to take delivery of more A220 then?
Yes, deliveries will continue. Newly delivered aircraft will be flown.
That's not how this works! That's not how any of this works!
 
DLASFlyer
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Re: DL parks some A220s

Thu Oct 01, 2020 6:01 pm

sxf24 wrote:
The parking is due to an AD related to manufacturing problems and structural cracking.


Cite your source.
 
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Thunderboltdrgn
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Re: DL parks some A220s

Thu Oct 01, 2020 6:09 pm

DLASFlyer wrote:
sxf24 wrote:
The parking is due to an AD related to manufacturing problems and structural cracking.


Cite your source.


I found this on EASA website.

AD CF-2020-322020-09-28 Fuselage - Cracks on Aft Wing To Body FairingStructure AIRBUS CANADA LP BD-500 (A220 Series)2020-10-0953


https://ad.easa.europa.eu/search/advanc ... =pdf&r=314
https://ad.easa.europa.eu/ad/CF-2020-32

I'm not saying this is related to the grounding just that such an AD exists.
Last edited by Thunderboltdrgn on Thu Oct 01, 2020 6:15 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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ikolkyo
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Re: DL parks some A220s

Thu Oct 01, 2020 6:09 pm

sxf24 wrote:
The parking is due to an AD related to manufacturing problems and structural cracking.


If this was the case wouldn't we see large operators like Swiss and AirBaltic doing the same?
 
VV
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Re: DL parks A220s

Thu Oct 01, 2020 6:17 pm

0newair0 wrote:
VV wrote:
0newair0 wrote:
This is false. The ENTIRE A220 fleet is not being parked. A portion of the fleet will be parked for several months.


Are they going to take delivery of more A220 then?
Yes, deliveries will continue. Newly delivered aircraft will be flown.


It is a very interesting decision.
It is probably because there are not so many of them that will be parked. Do you confirm?
 
0newair0
Posts: 421
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2007 12:21 am

Re: DL parks A220s

Thu Oct 01, 2020 6:18 pm

VV wrote:
0newair0 wrote:
VV wrote:

Are they going to take delivery of more A220 then?
Yes, deliveries will continue. Newly delivered aircraft will be flown.


It is a very interesting decision.
It is probably because there are not so many of them that will be parked. Do you confirm?
Yes, and the ones that are parked will be flying at some point next year.
That's not how this works! That's not how any of this works!
 
burnsie28
Posts: 5290
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2004 1:49 am

Re: DL parks some A220s

Thu Oct 01, 2020 6:27 pm

Thunderboltdrgn wrote:
DLASFlyer wrote:
sxf24 wrote:
The parking is due to an AD related to manufacturing problems and structural cracking.


Cite your source.


I found this on EASA website.

AD CF-2020-322020-09-28 Fuselage - Cracks on Aft Wing To Body FairingStructure AIRBUS CANADA LP BD-500 (A220 Series)2020-10-0953


https://ad.easa.europa.eu/search/advanc ... =pdf&r=314
https://ad.easa.europa.eu/ad/CF-2020-32

I'm not saying this is related to the grounding just that such an AD exists.


EASA wouldn't effect the Delta aircraft, the only AD's right now on the 221 from the FAA are Cargo and accessory compartment issue and Time Limit/Maintenance checks.

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