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enplaned
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DL's "aging aircraft" "problem"

Sat Oct 03, 2020 6:07 pm

https://www.yahoo.com/news/delta-aging- ... 00735.html

This is got to be one of the dumbest articles ever. Yes, DL has had an older (and more heterogeneous) fleet and (1) you couldn't tell from its reliability stats, no legacy has run a better operation recently (2) it wasn't apparent to most consumers, because by-and-large DL has done a great job of keeping their interiors in good condition and (3) this old fleet served it extremely well in this downturn so far, when it's been able to dump old, fully-depreciated aircraft with minimal pain. Which is exactly the reason why DL was so conservative in this way over the years.

DL's fleet plan has served it extremely well. Other than maybe Allegiant, I can't think of a US mainline airline that's done a better job in fleet planning and which has more reason to be satisfied with how their fleet plan has helped them in this Covid crisis.
 
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Boeing757100
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Re: DL's "aging aircraft" "problem"

Sat Oct 03, 2020 7:08 pm

I agree with you. I've heard that DL's TechOps is exceptional, and has catered to most of the Boeing/Airbus/Mcdonnell Douglas planes. Plus, they still have some new A330-900neos, A220s, 737-900ERs, and A350s, as well as some of their A330s, A319s, 737s, 777s, being below 10 years old, with a few 752s being in the 15-17 years old age group, which is also so young. I think there was some article showing a DL cabin with mood light cabin, seatback entertainment, and other amenities. The caption to that picture was "You wouldn't know that this A320 is 28 years old." And the project oasis AA 738s are probably barely 10 and don't even have TV. Just don't trust yahoo anymore.....
Boeing is bringing back the 707 tomorrow, with Shinkai as the Chief Executive Officer and FLAIRPORT as the Chief Financial Officer.
 
ILikeTrains
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Re: DL's "aging aircraft" "problem"

Sat Oct 03, 2020 7:11 pm

Business Insider is trash. Delta’s fleet pre-Covid was fine, the TechOps center does a phenomenal job keeping those jets in tip top shape. Some of the lowest rates of cancellation due to mechanical issues around, and the best cabins in the US.
 
FLLspotter747
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Re: DL's "aging aircraft" "problem"

Sat Oct 03, 2020 8:16 pm

Not counting the charter 752's, N658DL is the oldest plane in the fleet at 30.4 years old. Step inside that aircraft an you'd think it's maybe 5. I can't get enough of how well Delta has maintained the fleet, especially the older A320's and 757's. Now, that being said, there will be a point when some 757's do have to go. There's a couple of batches of frames that have various ages, so here's what I think we will be seeing.

Domestic
Fleet 1: Pre-Merger DAL 752's Batch 1, N658DL to N686DA (23 aircraft)
Fleet 2: Pre-Merger DAL 752's Batch 2, N687DL to N699DL (12 aircraft)
Fleet 3: Pre-Merger DAL 752's, N6700 to N67171 (18 aircraft)
Fleet 4: Pre-Merger NW 752's Batch 1, N535US to N549US (14 aircraft)
Fleet 5: Pre-Merger NW 752's Batch 2, N550NW to N557NW (8 aircraft)
Fleet 6: Ex-Shanghai 752's, N819DX to N823DX (5 aircraft)
Fleet 7: Pre-Merger NW 753's, N581NW to N596NW (16 aircraft)

Intl
Fleet 8: Ex-TWA 752's, N702TW to N727TW plus N624AG (some reg's are skipped) (18 aircraft)

Now for the average ages of the fleets:

Fleet 1: 28 years
Fleet 2: 21 years
Fleet 3: 20 years
Fleet 4: 24.5 years
Fleet 5: 19 years
Fleet 6: 16 years
Fleet 7: 17.5 years
Fleet 8: 22.5 years

My opinion:
Fleet 1 is the biggest outlier. At an average age of 28 years DL is probably running them until their next big check and then that'll be history for them. Fleet 4 may be on the same logic as well, but those aircraft are also ETOPS if I recall correctly, so they may be around for a big longer. Otherwise you still have a very strong 757 fleet with most aircraft having 10 or more years of service left in them.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: DL's "aging aircraft" "problem"

Sat Oct 03, 2020 8:16 pm

It took me about five minutes with the annual reports to see that DL received factory-fresh aircraft to the tune of 47 frames in 2017, 63 in 2018, and 75 in 2019 to see that they 'finally' got around to addressing this problem due to covid. BI writer Thomas Pallini needs a reprimand, and a lesson in research that he obviously missed as part of his education.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: DL's "aging aircraft" "problem"

Sun Oct 04, 2020 1:50 am

Delta had a brilliant strategy of not taking on debt. They are (or have) retiring the MD-80, MD-90, 73G, and soon(2025) 717, 763ER, and CR2.

Avoiding debt and economically downsizing is a problem?!? I return to the discussion threads on next DL order, although one isn required immediately due to the A321 and A220s on order...

I'm waiting for quarterly reports and I will look heavily at debt to revenue.

Lightsaber
I cannot wait to get vaccinated to live again! Warning: I simulated that it takes 50%+ vaccinated to protect the vaccinated and 75%+ vaccinated to protect the vac-hesitant.
 
LCDFlight
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Re: DL's "aging aircraft" "problem"

Sun Oct 04, 2020 2:00 am

I sat in some DL A320s last year that were OLD but nobody knew or cared. Why, because the interiors were MONTHs old if that. Completely new to the customer. I know they were old because they were legacy NW, who had some of the earliest A320s built.

As lightsaber said, avoiding debt and having flexibility in this downturn is very beneficial unless you want your airline to ding Ch11 in every crisis. I also think heavy profit sharing (but lower guaranteed pay) is another correct idea DL was using to some extent (their guaranteed pay looked fine too).
 
2eng2efficient
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Re: DL's "aging aircraft" "problem"

Sun Oct 04, 2020 2:11 am

On multiple occasions in the past few years, I have sat next to other customers on Delta flights and heard comments like, “Oh this plane is brand new!” when it was actually an old NW A320 built in the 1990s I assume. Delta has done a fantastic job on this front.
 
N649DL
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Re: DL's "aging aircraft" "problem"

Sun Oct 04, 2020 2:25 am

Yahoo.com is Fake News 24/7. And now they're picking on Delta because it's a slow news day? This article is absolute garbage. I'm willing to bet the author at Business Insider probably doesn't know the difference between an ex-NW A320 with a brand new interior vs. one that doesn't. Before DL retrofitted them, they were basically falling apart. DL did an excellent job with the retrofits and should be praised, not criticized that they have an "Aging Aircraft Problem."
 
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Antaras
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Re: DL's "aging aircraft" "problem"

Sun Oct 04, 2020 2:40 am

Perhaps the writer was sitting and writing that damn article somewhere in Vietnam, where QH has been criticized by using some 12-year-old A320 :confused:

The definition of an "old fleet" is different in places. In Asian countries which have strict regulations such as Vietnam, Korea,... old aircraft can be a problem with weak ground-maintenance as well as an extreme environment (hot, wet,...). However, in the US, there is no age limitation for aircraft, and the airframes' safety relies much on the maintenance as well as the refurbishment.

When you look at DL's fleet average age of "14.6 years old/835 aircraft", you may first think that DL has a quite old fleet, especially when you compare with other sizeable carriers' figure such as EK (7.5 years old / 268 airframes), SU (5.4 years / 241 frames) or VN (6.1 years / 100 frames). However, if you see the number of NEW and FRESH airframes DL receives every year (dozens), and if you know the ability of DL TechOps, you should change your mind.
If you disagree with my statement, assume that it was just a joke :duck:
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: DL's "aging aircraft" "problem"

Sun Oct 04, 2020 2:51 am

This article is complete trash, has zero analysis nor understanding of the industry or any semblance of fleet planning.

Not to mention the implications of capacity planning, nor the justification of why such aircrarft were around.

Yay! the pandemic is allowing them to retire hundreds of older aircraft, shrink the airline, reduce capacity, and be a smaller carrier.
At least we will have a PTV!

On a side note, I flew for the first time since early March this past week. It was the weirdest experience I've ever seen.
On one hand, demand being down so much some aspect are enjoyable without the crowds, on the other hand its just very much a mode of transport out of necessity and get from point A-B at this point. This is coming from someone who typically has flown about every 1-2 weeks for the past 15+ years.
The author of this article probably hasn't flown anytime recently.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: DL's "aging aircraft" "problem"

Sun Oct 04, 2020 3:34 am

The only real need for replacement at DL will be the B763 fleet, especially the remaining ex-GF frames and the P&W B763s (some of the latter will come close to being completely out of hours, while the ex-GF frames are above 100,000 hours).
 
RJMAZ
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Re: DL's "aging aircraft" "problem"

Sun Oct 04, 2020 4:37 am

Old aircraft might have higher maintenance cost but they are owned outright and have no repayments. In a crisis like we are in today this becomes a huge advantage. When a large number of old aircraft stop flying the maintenance costs are significantly reduced. The airlines that have brand new fleets will have big repayments throughout this crisis with very little income.

All airlines would wish they had an older and fully paid off fleet right now. Well done Delta, having your fleet strategy has finally paid off. All the airlines with huge orders and deposits held by Boeing and Airbus will suffer the longer this drags on.

This news article is a joke. Delta can retire old aircraft when demand drops with no negatives. Other airlines are retiring near new A380's. The article has a negative tone for some reason.
 
strfyr51
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Re: DL's "aging aircraft" "problem"

Sun Oct 04, 2020 5:54 am

enplaned wrote:
https://www.yahoo.com/news/delta-aging-plane-problem-pandemic-122200735.html
to the Penny how much an airplane reliability stats, no legacy has run a better operation recently (2) it wasn't apparent to most consumers, because by-and-large DL has done a great job of keeping their interiors in good condition and (3) this old fleet served it extremely well in this downturn so far, when it's been able to dump old, fully-depreciated aircraft with minimal pain. Which is exactly the reason why DL was so conservative in this way over the years.

DL's fleet plan has served it extremely well. Other than maybe Allegiant, I can't think of a US mainline airline that's done a better job in fleet planning and which has more reason to be satisfied with how their fleet plan has helped them in this Covid crisis.

This Shyster is writing just to see his Name in print! He doesn't have a clue to what he's saying!! getting rid of or parking an airplane or fleet of airplanes is an economic decision mostly based on cost, or residual Value of a fleet. when Parts become scarce or overly expensive for a model? It's usually time to Park said fleet.. Delta just like any other Major airline has people who monitor those costsand they KNOW to the penny what the fleet costs to maintain Vs to even FLY the airplane..the revenue generated by said fleet. Or? Wat the Next major service might cost and if it;s cost effective
 
jeffrey0032j
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Re: DL's "aging aircraft" "problem"

Sun Oct 04, 2020 6:28 am

Article is nonsense, claims DL is in a better position due to past fleet choices, but ignores the fact that UA AA and WN have benefitted from the MAX grounding, these airlines have less fat to cut as compared to DL.
 
dstblj52
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Re: DL's "aging aircraft" "problem"

Sun Oct 04, 2020 7:00 am

jeffrey0032j wrote:
Article is nonsense, claims DL is in a better position due to past fleet choices, but ignores the fact that UA AA and WN have benefitted from the MAX grounding, these airlines have less fat to cut as compared to DL.

Benefiting from the max grounding maybe but it cut profits in the happy times so the worse balance sheets are visible especially for AA, and they have to be concerned that boeing is going to try and force feed them MAX's over the coming months once they are ungrounded.
 
peterinlisbon
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Re: DL's "aging aircraft" "problem"

Sun Oct 04, 2020 7:10 am

Most journalists have no idea about most of the subjects that they write about and far are too lazy to do proper research. I say this because I've met many of them personally. "If you don't know, just make something up" seems to be their motto. Having an older fleet could actually be an asset in these times, because the overheads are lower. If airlines had known that Covid was coming and could have prepared for it, they would have not made so many orders for new planes.
 
jeffrey0032j
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Re: DL's "aging aircraft" "problem"

Sun Oct 04, 2020 7:42 am

dstblj52 wrote:
jeffrey0032j wrote:
Article is nonsense, claims DL is in a better position due to past fleet choices, but ignores the fact that UA AA and WN have benefitted from the MAX grounding, these airlines have less fat to cut as compared to DL.

Benefiting from the max grounding maybe but it cut profits in the happy times so the worse balance sheets are visible especially for AA, and they have to be concerned that boeing is going to try and force feed them MAX's over the coming months once they are ungrounded.

As opposed to manufacturers force feeding other frames like Airbus types and 787s right now?
 
reltney
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Re: DL's "aging aircraft" "problem"

Sun Oct 04, 2020 8:39 am

FLLspotter747 wrote:
Not counting the charter 752's, N658DL is the oldest plane in the fleet at 30.4 years old. Step inside that aircraft an you'd think it's maybe 5. I can't get enough of how well Delta has maintained the fleet, especially the older A320's and 757's. Now, that being said, there will be a point when some 757's do have to go. There's a couple of batches of frames that have various ages, so here's what I think we will be seeing.

Domestic
Fleet 1: Pre-Merger DAL 752's Batch 1, N658DL to N686DA (23 aircraft)
Fleet 2: Pre-Merger DAL 752's Batch 2, N687DL to N699DL (12 aircraft)
Fleet 3: Pre-Merger DAL 752's, N6700 to N67171 (18 aircraft)
Fleet 4: Pre-Merger NW 752's Batch 1, N535US to N549US (14 aircraft)
Fleet 5: Pre-Merger NW 752's Batch 2, N550NW to N557NW (8 aircraft)
Fleet 6: Ex-Shanghai 752's, N819DX to N823DX (5 aircraft)
Fleet 7: Pre-Merger NW 753's, N581NW to N596NW (16 aircraft)

Intl
Fleet 8: Ex-TWA 752's, N702TW to N727TW plus N624AG (some reg's are skipped) (18 aircraft)

Now for the average ages of the fleets:

Fleet 1: 28 years
Fleet 2: 21 years
Fleet 3: 20 years
Fleet 4: 24.5 years
Fleet 5: 19 years
Fleet 6: 16 years
Fleet 7: 17.5 years
Fleet 8: 22.5 years

My opinion:
Fleet 1 is the biggest outlier. At an average age of 28 years DL is probably running them until their next big check and then that'll be history for them. Fleet 4 may be on the same logic as well, but those aircraft are also ETOPS if I recall correctly, so they may be around for a big longer. Otherwise you still have a very strong 757 fleet with most aircraft having 10 or more years of service left in them.


None of the planes “have to go”. I just picked up a 757 from storage in QRO north of Mexico City 2 weeks ago. The facility manager gave us a tour of the Mx facility and it was pretty nice. I counted 8 757 in various checks. Delta announced prior to the China virus they will hold onto the 757 at present numbers thru 2026 unless they can find more airframes to buy. Since Covid I thought the plan will change and the facility manager verified exactly the same plan except Delta isn’t looking for anymore frames. All 757 will get D to heave checks if needed between now and 2030 and he was told to get started as the whole fleet is being activated. Just a little FYI stuff.

Everyone knows the plan can change overnight but there it is. As announced 2 years ago, they are slowly drawing down the 767 fleet. Only change is to have them gone by 2026. That changed by one year. Nothing really new.


Cheers
Knives don't kill people. People with knives kill people.
OUTLAW KNIVES.

I am a pilot, therefore I envy no one...
 
reltney
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Re: DL's "aging aircraft" "problem"

Sun Oct 04, 2020 8:40 am

peterinlisbon wrote:
Most journalists have no idea about most of the subjects that they write about and far are too lazy to do proper research. I say this because I've met many of them personally. "If you don't know, just make something up" seems to be their motto. Having an older fleet could actually be an asset in these times, because the overheads are lower. If airlines had known that Covid was coming and could have prepared for it, they would have not made so many orders for new planes.



Great post...
Knives don't kill people. People with knives kill people.
OUTLAW KNIVES.

I am a pilot, therefore I envy no one...
 
reltney
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Re: DL's "aging aircraft" "problem"

Sun Oct 04, 2020 8:50 am

lightsaber wrote:
Delta had a brilliant strategy of not taking on debt. They are (or have) retiring the MD-80, MD-90, 73G, and soon(2025) 717, 763ER, and CR2.

Avoiding debt and economically downsizing is a problem?!? I return to the discussion threads on next DL order, although one isn required immediately due to the A321 and A220s on order...

I'm waiting for quarterly reports and I will look heavily at debt to revenue.

Lightsaber



Using Delta talk and the names they use for fleets.....Delta retired the 73Gs (737=300) in 2005 ish. Too expensive to convert and operate 3 different 737 fleets. With the 7NG 737-700/800/900, the airline have on basic fleet of 737 types. Delta did announce the 737-700 is leaving. . You need to mention the older A320s were parked and scrapped. Without looking the frames up, Delta said 20 Or so were to be Permanently parked .

Cheers
Knives don't kill people. People with knives kill people.
OUTLAW KNIVES.

I am a pilot, therefore I envy no one...
 
OB1504
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Re: DL's "aging aircraft" "problem"

Sun Oct 04, 2020 9:23 am

2eng2efficient wrote:
On multiple occasions in the past few years, I have sat next to other customers on Delta flights and heard comments like, “Oh this plane is brand new!” when it was actually an old NW A320 built in the 1990s I assume. Delta has done a fantastic job on this front.


Agreed. The first time I flew on one of their refurbished 757s I was absolutely shocked that a 757 could look that modern.

By comparison I have flown on a competitor’s airplanes that were only a few months old and overheard passengers commenting about how they got stuck with an old airplane because the seats were such poor quality and the FAs were doing a manual safety demo in the aisles.

jeffrey0032j wrote:
dstblj52 wrote:
jeffrey0032j wrote:
Article is nonsense, claims DL is in a better position due to past fleet choices, but ignores the fact that UA AA and WN have benefitted from the MAX grounding, these airlines have less fat to cut as compared to DL.

Benefiting from the max grounding maybe but it cut profits in the happy times so the worse balance sheets are visible especially for AA, and they have to be concerned that boeing is going to try and force feed them MAX's over the coming months once they are ungrounded.

As opposed to manufacturers force feeding other frames like Airbus types and 787s right now?


Those other types haven’t been piling up at the factory for a year and a half.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: DL's "aging aircraft" "problem"

Sun Oct 04, 2020 12:30 pm

New leased/financed vs old owned discussion never gets old.

Delta not only good at TechOps, they seem to be very good at buying spares in bulk at cheaper prices. I guess having cash on hand helps.

Fuel efficiency should tip the scales in favor of new planes, but design/quality issues ruining their day.
All posts are just opinions.
 
chonetsao
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Re: DL's "aging aircraft" "problem"

Sun Oct 04, 2020 12:57 pm

I think the author will have a heart attack if he/she looks into the Air Canada group fleet.
 
johns624
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Re: DL's "aging aircraft" "problem"

Sun Oct 04, 2020 1:17 pm

Business Insider and National Interest are both garbage sites, one very small step above clickbait.
 
Lootess
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Re: DL's "aging aircraft" "problem"

Sun Oct 04, 2020 2:01 pm

Times like these you wish it was even a Simple Flying or a Richard Quest article, people who have some actual insight in the industry.
 
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BawliBooch
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Re: DL's "aging aircraft" "problem"

Sun Oct 04, 2020 2:28 pm

"Blind stories" against companies are common in my line of work. And Delta has been a target of these in the past. Atleast this story names Delta!

Delta should learn the PR game from Southwest. Even with their questionable maintenance practices, you wont find one negative story in the mainstream media about Southwest!
Mr.Kapoor's favorite poodle!
 
Lootess
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Re: DL's "aging aircraft" "problem"

Sun Oct 04, 2020 2:30 pm

BawliBooch wrote:
"Blind stories" against companies are common in my line of work. And Delta has been a target of these in the past. Atleast this story names Delta!

Delta should learn the PR game from Southwest. Even with their questionable maintenance practices, you wont find one negative story in the mainstream media about Southwest!


Delta has the best PR game, step into an A320 today it will look far better than any others out there with its space looking interior
 
DeltaRules
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Re: DL's "aging aircraft" "problem"

Sun Oct 04, 2020 3:25 pm

reltney wrote:
FLLspotter747 wrote:
Not counting the charter 752's, N658DL is the oldest plane in the fleet at 30.4 years old. Step inside that aircraft an you'd think it's maybe 5. I can't get enough of how well Delta has maintained the fleet, especially the older A320's and 757's. Now, that being said, there will be a point when some 757's do have to go. There's a couple of batches of frames that have various ages, so here's what I think we will be seeing.

Domestic
Fleet 1: Pre-Merger DAL 752's Batch 1, N658DL to N686DA (23 aircraft)
Fleet 2: Pre-Merger DAL 752's Batch 2, N687DL to N699DL (12 aircraft)
Fleet 3: Pre-Merger DAL 752's, N6700 to N67171 (18 aircraft)
Fleet 4: Pre-Merger NW 752's Batch 1, N535US to N549US (14 aircraft)
Fleet 5: Pre-Merger NW 752's Batch 2, N550NW to N557NW (8 aircraft)
Fleet 6: Ex-Shanghai 752's, N819DX to N823DX (5 aircraft)
Fleet 7: Pre-Merger NW 753's, N581NW to N596NW (16 aircraft)

Intl
Fleet 8: Ex-TWA 752's, N702TW to N727TW plus N624AG (some reg's are skipped) (18 aircraft)

Now for the average ages of the fleets:

Fleet 1: 28 years
Fleet 2: 21 years
Fleet 3: 20 years
Fleet 4: 24.5 years
Fleet 5: 19 years
Fleet 6: 16 years
Fleet 7: 17.5 years
Fleet 8: 22.5 years

My opinion:
Fleet 1 is the biggest outlier. At an average age of 28 years DL is probably running them until their next big check and then that'll be history for them. Fleet 4 may be on the same logic as well, but those aircraft are also ETOPS if I recall correctly, so they may be around for a big longer. Otherwise you still have a very strong 757 fleet with most aircraft having 10 or more years of service left in them.


None of the planes “have to go”. I just picked up a 757 from storage in QRO north of Mexico City 2 weeks ago. The facility manager gave us a tour of the Mx facility and it was pretty nice. I counted 8 757 in various checks. Delta announced prior to the China virus they will hold onto the 757 at present numbers thru 2026 unless they can find more airframes to buy. Since Covid I thought the plan will change and the facility manager verified exactly the same plan except Delta isn’t looking for anymore frames. All 757 will get D to heave checks if needed between now and 2030 and he was told to get started as the whole fleet is being activated. Just a little FYI stuff.

Everyone knows the plan can change overnight but there it is. As announced 2 years ago, they are slowly drawing down the 767 fleet. Only change is to have them gone by 2026. That changed by one year. Nothing really new.


Cheers


Thanks for the insight. Even though the plan to add frames has changed, it looks like there are a couple very late build PW-powered 757s in storage from Azur Air which could theoretically be had.
A310/319/320/321/333, ARJ, BN2, B717/722/73S/733/734/735/73G/738/739/744/757/753/767/763/764/777, CR1/2/7/9, DH6, 328, EM2/ERJ/E70/E75/E90, F28/100, J31, L10/12/15, DC9/D93/D94/D95/M80/M88/M90/D10, SF3, SST
 
777luver
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Re: DL's "aging aircraft" "problem"

Sun Oct 04, 2020 3:34 pm

chonetsao wrote:
I think the author will have a heart attack if he/she looks into the Air Canada group fleet.


Huh? Other than the old 319/320 fleet, most of the fleet is within 13 years old
 
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DocLightning
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Re: DL's "aging aircraft" "problem"

Sun Oct 04, 2020 3:55 pm

Boeing757100 wrote:
I agree with you. I've heard that DL's TechOps is exceptional, and has catered to most of the Boeing/Airbus/Mcdonnell Douglas planes.


Not only that, but this practice of keeping older aircraft was also NW's. By the late 1990s, NW had one of the oldest fleets in the USA. I remember in 1998 (I think) flying aboard a DC-9-10 that had been delivered in the 1960s. But the interior was almost indistinguishable from the 717. Their DC-10s were ancient, and yet the interiors looked as if they had just been delivered. They were clean and bright.

I hated NW with a passion for their awful customer service and their iron grip on the DTW market that offered little in the way of other options for flyers who were fed up with NW's labor issues, seeming lack of caring on the part of staff, and minimalist inflight amenities. However, their aircraft were exquisitely maintained and were seldom the problem.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
chonetsao
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Re: DL's "aging aircraft" "problem"

Sun Oct 04, 2020 4:26 pm

777luver wrote:
chonetsao wrote:
I think the author will have a heart attack if he/she looks into the Air Canada group fleet.


Huh? Other than the old 319/320 fleet, most of the fleet is within 13 years old


I was talking about Air Canada group. But I did not realise Air Canada Rouge actually retired its all old B767-300 as of now. If not that would really make the average age high. Sorry my memory still stayed in February before the Covid-19.
 
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DL717
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Re: DL's "aging aircraft" "problem"

Sun Oct 04, 2020 5:04 pm

Delta’s “aging fleet” is actually beneficial right now. As this COVID mess continues, they are in a better position to shed older aircraft as they slowly take on a new fleet. They’ll be smaller, but also lighter after this and more agile.
Funny. It only took one pandemic for those who argue endlessly about natural selection to stop believing in natural selection.
 
jayunited
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Re: DL's "aging aircraft" "problem"

Sun Oct 04, 2020 5:09 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
New leased/financed vs old owned discussion never gets old.

Delta not only good at TechOps, they seem to be very good at buying spares in bulk at cheaper prices. I guess having cash on hand helps.

Fuel efficiency should tip the scales in favor of new planes, but design/quality issues ruining their day.



I agree with your post.

Delta executed their strategy so well that it was one of the first things Scott Kirby copied when he came over to UA, buying slightly used aircraft gut and refurbish them and also buying aircraft for spare parts. UA even in this pandemic is still taking delivery of used 737-700s and used A319/20s. Some of the A320s UA has taken delivery of will never fly again they are being stripped for spare parts.

An airline like DL benefits from having a diverse fleet of both new and old (slightly used) aircraft in their fleet.

And if we are being honest I think UA has a even larger aging aircraft problem than DL.
 
catiii
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Re: DL's "aging aircraft" "problem"

Sun Oct 04, 2020 6:15 pm

Has anyone done the math to see how much younger on average the fleet gets once the ERs, 777s, and 717s go?
 
enplaned
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Re: DL's "aging aircraft" "problem"

Sun Oct 04, 2020 6:24 pm

jayunited wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
Delta executed their strategy so well that it was one of the first things Scott Kirby copied when he came over to UA, buying slightly used aircraft gut and refurbish them and also buying aircraft for spare parts. UA even in this pandemic is still taking delivery of used 737-700s and used A319/20s. Some of the A320s UA has taken delivery of will never fly again they are being stripped for spare parts


I think that was Andrew Levy during his brief two year stint as CFO. It's right out of the Allegiant playbook.
 
Lootess
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Re: DL's "aging aircraft" "problem"

Sun Oct 04, 2020 6:26 pm

DL717 wrote:
Delta’s “aging fleet” is actually beneficial right now. As this COVID mess continues, they are in a better position to shed older aircraft as they slowly take on a new fleet. They’ll be smaller, but also lighter after this and more agile.


Yep, compared with AA and having too many new aircraft to mortgage and also dealing with leasebacks to raise capital.

Delta was able to do such too in much lesser numbers.

Big benefit is having so many paid aircraft is thst liabilities are lower and easier to shrink the airline.
 
777luver
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Re: DL's "aging aircraft" "problem"

Sun Oct 04, 2020 8:45 pm

chonetsao wrote:
777luver wrote:
chonetsao wrote:
I think the author will have a heart attack if he/she looks into the Air Canada group fleet.


Huh? Other than the old 319/320 fleet, most of the fleet is within 13 years old


I was talking about Air Canada group. But I did not realise Air Canada Rouge actually retired its all old B767-300 as of now. If not that would really make the average age high. Sorry my memory still stayed in February before the Covid-19.


Yeah the E90s, 767s are gone and the A319s are on the way out. No worries though
 
FF630
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Re: DL's "aging aircraft" "problem"

Mon Oct 05, 2020 5:51 pm

I know two engineers who have worked for Tech Ops many years. Delta does a top notch job of maintaining their aircraft as well as aircraft for other airlines and the military. I have never been concerned about flying on a Delta aircraft since age 15, at that time it was a DC7 !

If Delta adds the MAX I would not be concerned about the maintenance just the Boeing software
 
miegapele
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Re: DL's "aging aircraft" "problem"

Mon Oct 05, 2020 8:34 pm

Seems like a lot of Delta apologists miss the point here.
Public perception is what maters here, not tech ops quality or whatever else.
The same way as CRJ200 AT72 or Q400 is despised by average joe (and oddly also here, although there is no reason for that) old aircraft are also disliked by the flying public. And Delta is known for dumpster diving and flying whatever old crap they can find. This creates image that it flies old planes and thus such articles are born.
Delta itself seems to have moved away from this strategy in recent years, or maybe there is no good old planes to buy, I don't know. But the image of Delta flying old planes is hard to change,
 
enplaned
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Re: DL's "aging aircraft" "problem"

Mon Oct 05, 2020 8:51 pm

miegapele wrote:
Seems like a lot of Delta apologists miss the point here.
Public perception is what maters here, not tech ops quality or whatever else.
The same way as CRJ200 AT72 or Q400 is despised by average joe (and oddly also here, although there is no reason for that) old aircraft are also disliked by the flying public. And Delta is known for dumpster diving and flying whatever old crap they can find. This creates image that it flies old planes and thus such articles are born.
Delta itself seems to have moved away from this strategy in recent years, or maybe there is no good old planes to buy, I don't know. But the image of Delta flying old planes is hard to change,


Do you have any evidence whatsoever that public perception is that Delta flies old aircraft? Anything at all?

Decades ago I recall getting on board a NW DC-9 that had been through their interior renovation process, and all the customers were exclaiming about the nice new aircraft. The airplane was over 20 years old, but it wasn't apparent to the customers. So yeah, perception matters.

In the last five years I've been on old DL 319s, 757s, 717s, MD-90s - all of them in great shape, none of them showing their age. The A319 had a totally new interior including PSUs. It looked new.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: DL's "aging aircraft" "problem"

Mon Oct 05, 2020 9:00 pm

Delta was super profitable in 2018 & 2019. Why is an image change required? The oldest aircraft are gone.

This isn't AA that decided to do such an image change and put themselves into deep debt. Shiney aircraft syndrome is the #1 way airlines bankrupt themselves.

Passengers do not even realize how old Delta aircraft are. With the planned retirement of the 717s, 763, MD-88s, MD-90s, 73Gs, and CR2s, the remaining is on a per aircraft basis.

AA changed their image at the cost of crushing debt. I would rather DL stay the course. As someone in Aerospace R&D, I prefer new sales, but that doesn't make it the right strategy.

Let us see. I could see more A220 and a brutal NEO vs. MAX match, but the terms would have to be outstanding for Delta not to bring in used.

Delta can fly almost any used narrowbody (except A320 w/V2500 or LEAP powered, until they receive a maintenance license for either).

Options are good.

Lightsaber
I cannot wait to get vaccinated to live again! Warning: I simulated that it takes 50%+ vaccinated to protect the vaccinated and 75%+ vaccinated to protect the vac-hesitant.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: DL's "aging aircraft" "problem"

Mon Oct 05, 2020 9:25 pm

Discuss the topic, not other users.
I just deleted many good posts as they quoted another post insulting users. I apologise for deleting so many, but we do not edit posts.

If you cannot post without insulting the other side, you will be banned. This is your warning.

Lightsaber
I cannot wait to get vaccinated to live again! Warning: I simulated that it takes 50%+ vaccinated to protect the vaccinated and 75%+ vaccinated to protect the vac-hesitant.
 
Lootess
Posts: 544
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Re: DL's "aging aircraft" "problem"

Mon Oct 05, 2020 9:34 pm

miegapele wrote:
Seems like a lot of Delta apologists miss the point here.
Public perception is what maters here, not tech ops quality or whatever else.
The same way as CRJ200 AT72 or Q400 is despised by average joe (and oddly also here, although there is no reason for that) old aircraft are also disliked by the flying public. And Delta is known for dumpster diving and flying whatever old crap they can find. This creates image that it flies old planes and thus such articles are bo, n.
Delta itself seems to have moved away from this strategy in recent years, or maybe there is no good old planes to buy, I don't know. But the image of Delta flying old planes is hard to change,


I'm going to call shenanigans on this opinion.

Dumpster diving doesn't jive with their actions in the last decade. Many people in this forum like to think Delta would buy any used widebody at anytime, and that hasn't happened a long time for that matter. The four A359s that were in the LATAM fleet that Delta was going to buy were rejected simply because of the pandemic, and those were not even old.

The leased 717 from Southwest were not old, and they got new seats/interiors when they were delivered.

A319s/A320 look better than any of the US airlines flying them today, they have hanging bins, and futuristic looking PSUs with lighting around them. You'd have to look very
far to know they were NW birds.

Sure the MDs are gone, but all of them had rather recent interiors, they didn't look like an 80s plane at-all.
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 1957
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Re: DL's "aging aircraft" "problem"

Mon Oct 05, 2020 9:45 pm

miegapele wrote:
Seems like a lot of Delta apologists miss the point here.
Public perception is what maters here, not tech ops quality or whatever else.
The same way as CRJ200 AT72 or Q400 is despised by average joe (and oddly also here, although there is no reason for that) old aircraft are also disliked by the flying public. And Delta is known for dumpster diving and flying whatever old crap they can find. This creates image that it flies old planes and thus such articles are born.
Delta itself seems to have moved away from this strategy in recent years, or maybe there is no good old planes to buy, I don't know. But the image of Delta flying old planes is hard to change,

And, when you look at a DL aircraft, it usually looks recent (if not brand new): new paint, updated interior, etc. THAT's what the flying public sees; not the dataplate that says the aircraft is 20 or 25 years old.
Sorry, but your argument actually plays against the point you want to make and in favor of DL.
 
peterinlisbon
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Re: DL's "aging aircraft" "problem"

Tue Oct 06, 2020 6:37 am

I flew with Delta last year and I thought they were pretty good. The MD-80 I was on was pretty old but in decent condition and I got a free sandwich/cookie and a coffee. I also had plenty of space so I could sit where I wanted and look out the window. It reminded me of the good old days in Europe. On the way back I flew Frontier - and of course we were packed in like sardines and if you wanted to eat or drink you had to pay twice the normal price. I couldn't wait to get off that brand new A320. And I'm sure the general public notice the age of an aircraft less than me.
 
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seabosdca
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Re: DL's "aging aircraft" "problem"

Tue Oct 06, 2020 7:00 am

DL is better positioned than other US majors to weather COVID precisely because it has so much owned, older flex capacity. It doesn't cost anything to remove the oldest 752s and the first batch of A320s from service. Even newer 752s, A320s, and 738s can go without much pain. AA is in a world of hurt, having just gone into a lot of debt to finance a massive, pretty sudden fleet renewal. UA is somewhere in the middle.

DL does have a bit of a widebody problem because of the 767 issue. Their 767s are currently their most valuable widebody aircraft but many are way up there in hours. 339s are awfully big and expensive as replacements. I wouldn't be shocked to see them take on a few midlife 332s even as they retire 772s.
 
Sokes
Posts: 2438
Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:48 pm

Re: DL's "aging aircraft" "problem"

Tue Oct 06, 2020 9:25 am

seabosdca wrote:
I wouldn't be shocked to see them take on a few midlife 332s even as they retire 772s.

That seems like the correct (or least faulty) replacement.
Can somebody expand on the economics?
Do we already have a topic A321 Neo vs old A330-200 as B767 replacement?
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
Kno
Posts: 584
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2016 10:08 pm

Re: DL's "aging aircraft" "problem"

Tue Oct 06, 2020 12:18 pm

Just flew DL TPA-ATL-BOS last night, my business partner kept commenting on how the 757 on TPA-ATL was much newer than the a321 on ATL-BOS. I didn’t correct him but I got a kick out of that! It’s all in how the plane is maintained.
 
Capricorn
Posts: 110
Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2020 1:11 pm

Re: DL's "aging aircraft" "problem"

Tue Oct 06, 2020 1:00 pm

miegapele wrote:
And Delta is known for dumpster diving and flying whatever old crap they can find. This creates image that it flies old planes and thus such articles are born.


Them going "Dumpster Diving" ist a big part why DL is very successful. I guess DL is kinda happy of not having a too extensive order book at the moment. Post C19 they can either make a bargain deal for new aircraft from A & B or there will be plenty of used birds available from lessors or other airlines at fire sale prices. And as many have pointed out the usual formula for what a new aircraft is in the eyes of customers equals to: new interior & paint job = new plane. And DL seems to be good at keeping their birds in shape so not many passengers care about the age issue as long as the flight experience is good, or at least better than their competitior's experience.
Last edited by Capricorn on Tue Oct 06, 2020 1:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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