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Boof02671
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Re: Investigation gone quiet on AA300 incident

Sun Nov 29, 2020 2:06 pm

Engines coming off

Image
 
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WesternDC6B
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Re: Investigation gone quiet on AA300 incident

Sun Nov 29, 2020 2:19 pm

Was the aircraft taken up to FL200 in order to burn off or drain fuel before returning for a landing?
 
Boof02671
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Re: Investigation gone quiet on AA300 incident

Sun Nov 29, 2020 2:24 pm

WesternDC6B wrote:
Was the aircraft taken up to FL200 in order to burn off or drain fuel before returning for a landing?

No they were going to go on to LAX until the damage was reported
 
CRJockey
Posts: 354
Joined: Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:54 am

Re: Investigation gone quiet on AA300 incident

Sun Nov 29, 2020 2:33 pm

WesternDC6B wrote:
Was the aircraft taken up to FL200 in order to burn off or drain fuel before returning for a landing?


No, and it would be kind of useless. Yes you burn while climbing. But you hardly burn while descending. All in all you are better off flying low and draggy to burn fuel.
 
teachpdx
Posts: 172
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Re: Investigation gone quiet on AA300 incident

Sun Nov 29, 2020 8:06 pm

VV wrote:
Since the aircraft is being stripped away, should we conclude that the investigation is completed?

It may mean the report is about to be issued.


There is still no information on the investigation from the NTSB. No incident number, no listing on their website as an open investigation, only a couple peeps from differing sources immediately afterward that “it is under investigation”. Nothing since...

I’ve said before that I would be shocked if this wasn’t being investigated, but right now there is no evidence pointing toward a current NTSB investigation of the AA300 incident.
 
USAirKid
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Re: Investigation gone quiet on AA300 incident

Sun Nov 29, 2020 11:43 pm

How far is this bird going to be stripped? Are they going to save structural comments like the good wingtip? The empennage? Doors and windows?

The A320 family is still going to get a lot of use, so there will be planes flying that might need throes parts.
 
Antarius
Posts: 3436
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:27 pm

Re: Investigation gone quiet on AA300 incident

Mon Nov 30, 2020 12:06 am

USAirKid wrote:
How far is this bird going to be stripped? Are they going to save structural comments like the good wingtip? The empennage? Doors and windows?

The A320 family is still going to get a lot of use, so there will be planes flying that might need throes parts.


I would assume anything of value that can be reused for a lower total cost than a new one. Likely, quite a bit.
 
pugman211
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Re: Investigation gone quiet on AA300 incident

Mon Nov 30, 2020 12:23 am

Boof02671 wrote:
Engines coming off

Image



Boof, can you get any pics of the left wing. It would be interesting to see the damage from another angle
 
VV
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Re: Investigation gone quiet on AA300 incident

Mon Nov 30, 2020 10:23 am

teachpdx wrote:
VV wrote:
Since the aircraft is being stripped away, should we conclude that the investigation is completed?

It may mean the report is about to be issued.


There is still no information on the investigation from the NTSB. No incident number, no listing on their website as an open investigation, only a couple peeps from differing sources immediately afterward that “it is under investigation”. Nothing since...

I’ve said before that I would be shocked if this wasn’t being investigated, but right now there is no evidence pointing toward a current NTSB investigation of the AA300 incident.



You are right.

I don't think it is useful to think about any conspiracy here.
 
INFINITI329
Posts: 2611
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2012 12:53 am

Re: Investigation gone quiet on AA300 incident

Mon Nov 30, 2020 5:48 pm

teachpdx wrote:
VV wrote:
Since the aircraft is being stripped away, should we conclude that the investigation is completed?

It may mean the report is about to be issued.


There is still no information on the investigation from the NTSB. No incident number, no listing on their website as an open investigation, only a couple peeps from differing sources immediately afterward that “it is under investigation”. Nothing since...

I’ve said before that I would be shocked if this wasn’t being investigated, but right now there is no evidence pointing toward a current NTSB investigation of the AA300 incident.


An FOIA request will probably end up happening if the NTSB isn't forthcoming with information

Antarius wrote:
I would assume anything of value that can be reused for a lower total cost than a new one. Likely, quite a bit.


I would assume anything that can be removed will be and then refurbished and put back into AA's parts inventory. This is an assumption as I am not familiar with what can and cannot be saved
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 2459
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Re: Investigation gone quiet on AA300 incident

Mon Nov 30, 2020 10:23 pm

INFINITI329 wrote:
teachpdx wrote:
VV wrote:
Since the aircraft is being stripped away, should we conclude that the investigation is completed?

It may mean the report is about to be issued.


There is still no information on the investigation from the NTSB. No incident number, no listing on their website as an open investigation, only a couple peeps from differing sources immediately afterward that “it is under investigation”. Nothing since...

I’ve said before that I would be shocked if this wasn’t being investigated, but right now there is no evidence pointing toward a current NTSB investigation of the AA300 incident.


An FOIA request will probably end up happening if the NTSB isn't forthcoming with information

Antarius wrote:
I would assume anything of value that can be reused for a lower total cost than a new one. Likely, quite a bit.


I would assume anything that can be removed will be and then refurbished and put back into AA's parts inventory. This is an assumption as I am not familiar with what can and cannot be saved

I'm sure a ton of LRUs are removed, repaired/recertified and restocked.
After the IB A340-600 slid off the runway in Quito (November 9, 2007), we received numerous requests from brokers to recertify many LRUs removed from that plane; we refused as they were brokers (we did not want any liability if they "forgot" to inform the end operator), but would have done it for IB or another airline, as those parts were not structural.
 
INFINITI329
Posts: 2611
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2012 12:53 am

Re: Investigation gone quiet on AA300 incident

Wed Dec 02, 2020 5:29 am

WayexTDI wrote:
INFINITI329 wrote:
teachpdx wrote:

There is still no information on the investigation from the NTSB. No incident number, no listing on their website as an open investigation, only a couple peeps from differing sources immediately afterward that “it is under investigation”. Nothing since...

I’ve said before that I would be shocked if this wasn’t being investigated, but right now there is no evidence pointing toward a current NTSB investigation of the AA300 incident.


An FOIA request will probably end up happening if the NTSB isn't forthcoming with information

Antarius wrote:
I would assume anything of value that can be reused for a lower total cost than a new one. Likely, quite a bit.


I would assume anything that can be removed will be and then refurbished and put back into AA's parts inventory. This is an assumption as I am not familiar with what can and cannot be saved

I'm sure a ton of LRUs are removed, repaired/recertified and restocked.
After the IB A340-600 slid off the runway in Quito (November 9, 2007), we received numerous requests from brokers to recertify many LRUs removed from that plane; we refused as they were brokers (we did not want any liability if they "forgot" to inform the end operator), but would have done it for IB or another airline, as those parts were not structural.


How often do airlines or operators buy parts from brokers?
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 2459
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: Investigation gone quiet on AA300 incident

Thu Dec 03, 2020 11:01 pm

INFINITI329 wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
INFINITI329 wrote:

An FOIA request will probably end up happening if the NTSB isn't forthcoming with information



I would assume anything that can be removed will be and then refurbished and put back into AA's parts inventory. This is an assumption as I am not familiar with what can and cannot be saved

I'm sure a ton of LRUs are removed, repaired/recertified and restocked.
After the IB A340-600 slid off the runway in Quito (November 9, 2007), we received numerous requests from brokers to recertify many LRUs removed from that plane; we refused as they were brokers (we did not want any liability if they "forgot" to inform the end operator), but would have done it for IB or another airline, as those parts were not structural.


How often do airlines or operators buy parts from brokers?

Seeing the amount of business we were doing with brokers, must be quite a bit.
 
D L X
Posts: 12725
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 3:30 am

Re: Investigation gone quiet on AA300 incident

Fri Dec 04, 2020 12:01 am

VASaviation did a work up of this flight on YouTube. It sure doesn’t sound like the pilots knew they had hit something on takeoff.

This is why I’ve been so interested in this accident.

https://youtu.be/Ca-0Bi2lZhg
 
FLYBY72
Posts: 41
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Re: Investigation gone quiet on AA300 incident

Wed Feb 10, 2021 12:53 am

Well I decided to try the FOIA request with the NTSB and so far have gotten nowhere. They haven't even answered the request, I mean they have completely ignored it. Request was filed on 4 December 2020, status is "In Process". It has been that way longer than the required 20 days. I have since filed an appeal, which also is being ignored, "Assigned for Processing" since 28 January.

Pursuant to the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA), each agency is required to determine within 20 days (excluding Saturdays, Sundays, and legal public holidays) after the receipt of a request whether to comply with the request. 5 U.S.C. § 552(a)(6)(A)(i). The actual disclosure of documents is required to follow promptly thereafter. The FOIA permits an agency to extend the time limits up to 10 days in “unusual circumstances” (i.e., the need to collect records from remote locations, review large numbers of records, and consult with other agencies). 5 U.S.C. § 552(a)(6)(B)(i). The agency is supposed to notify the requester whenever an extension is invoked.

If they do not answer my appeal in 20 days I plan to appeal to the DOG Department of Information Policy.

There is no reason this incident should be kept secret like this. There should at least be an entry in a database acknowledging that it happened.

I have also contacted the FAA and asked why it is not in their incident database. I mean it should at least be in ASIAS, well, it isn't. When I pressed the FAA on it, they said the NTSB was investigating, but would not say why there is no record of it. They also refused to answer why it was not included in any FAA incident data.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Investigation gone quiet on AA300 incident

Wed Feb 10, 2021 2:40 am

Interesting development. We can assume that nothing has been discovered that would apply to other planes or they wouldn't take the risk, especially after the MAX fiasco, and the aircraft isn't of US origin so no evident utter motive there either.
 
sevenair
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Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2001 7:18 am

Re: Investigation gone quiet on AA300 incident

Wed Feb 10, 2021 6:23 am

If we can't know what happened, we can never avoid it from reoccurring in the future.

I'm seriously losing faith in the US aviation safety regime. I'd have hoped after the lethal 737MAX saga that the culture would have changed.

It appears that it has not.
 
FluidFlow
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Joined: Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:39 am

Re: Investigation gone quiet on AA300 incident

Wed Feb 10, 2021 9:09 am

I expect behaviour like this from aviation agencies of certain countries but not from the FAA. This does not look to good from a neutral perspective. Really wonder what happened. It also does not look good for Airbus, they should press the FAA to disclose, as well as the NTSB. At the end of the day it was their aircraft and they should demand information. On the other side they might be in on it and also do want to keep it secret but this would be even bigger.

I do not like this at all...
 
11C
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Re: Investigation gone quiet on AA300 incident

Wed Feb 10, 2021 11:08 am

D L X wrote:
VASaviation did a work up of this flight on YouTube. It sure doesn’t sound like the pilots knew they had hit something on takeoff.

This is why I’ve been so interested in this accident.

https://youtu.be/Ca-0Bi2lZhg


It’s all pretty strange. If I had a “45 degree roll” to the left on takeoff, I would probably glance out at that wingtip, which is visible from the cockpit. That damage would be hard to miss. I would like to know what caused this, too. I definitely have suspicions, but the information needs to come out. I don’t think much can be learned from that ATC audio, but the CVR probably has some much more interesting conversation.
 
USAirKid
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Re: Investigation gone quiet on AA300 incident

Thu Feb 11, 2021 9:02 am

FLYBY72 wrote:
Well I decided to try the FOIA request with the NTSB and so far have gotten nowhere. They haven't even answered the request, I mean they have completely ignored it. Request was filed on 4 December 2020, status is "In Process". It has been that way longer than the required 20 days. I have since filed an appeal, which also is being ignored, "Assigned for Processing" since 28 January.


FLYBY72 wrote:
If they do not answer my appeal in 20 days I plan to appeal to the DOG Department of Information Policy.


I'm presuming you intended to type DOT Department of Information Policy. Which leads me to two questions:
1. A quickish search on Google didn't find a department by that name at the US DOT. Is that where you're planning on appealing this to?
2. The NTSB is an independent agency. It isn't a subsidiary administration of the US DOT. So why would you be appealing there?
 
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Polot
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Re: Investigation gone quiet on AA300 incident

Thu Feb 11, 2021 12:13 pm

FLYBY72 wrote:
Well I decided to try the FOIA request with the NTSB and so far have gotten nowhere. They haven't even answered the request, I mean they have completely ignored it. Request was filed on 4 December 2020, status is "In Process". It has been that way longer than the required 20 days. I have since filed an appeal, which also is being ignored, "Assigned for Processing" since 28 January.

Pursuant to the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA), each agency is required to determine within 20 days (excluding Saturdays, Sundays, and legal public holidays) after the receipt of a request whether to comply with the request. 5 U.S.C. § 552(a)(6)(A)(i). The actual disclosure of documents is required to follow promptly thereafter. The FOIA permits an agency to extend the time limits up to 10 days in “unusual circumstances” (i.e., the need to collect records from remote locations, review large numbers of records, and consult with other agencies). 5 U.S.C. § 552(a)(6)(B)(i). The agency is supposed to notify the requester whenever an extension is invoked.

If they do not answer my appeal in 20 days I plan to appeal to the DOG Department of Information Policy.

There is no reason this incident should be kept secret like this. There should at least be an entry in a database acknowledging that it happened.

I have also contacted the FAA and asked why it is not in their incident database. I mean it should at least be in ASIAS, well, it isn't. When I pressed the FAA on it, they said the NTSB was investigating, but would not say why there is no record of it. They also refused to answer why it was not included in any FAA incident data.

With Covid most of the federal government is on telework status and the 20 business days to respond requirement
has gone out the window as it may be difficult for responders to access some information (if not digitized or if in a system employee has no access to from home network they can’t get you information). Some agencies have effectively suspended FOIA requests. Not technically legal per FOIA law but for most of covid the federal government was run by someone who didn’t care about that (unsure about current administration’s priority in making sure agencies follow FOIA time limits).

Also as pointed out the NTSB is an independent agency. The FAA/DOT can not help you get the information you seek, complaining to them is just as useful as complaining to the CDC about it. You need to contact the FOIA officers/helpline the NTSB lists on the FOIA section of their website.
 
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zeke
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Re: Investigation gone quiet on AA300 incident

Thu Feb 11, 2021 12:55 pm

11C wrote:

It’s all pretty strange. If I had a “45 degree roll” to the left on takeoff, I would probably glance out at that wingtip, which is visible from the cockpit. That damage would be hard to miss. I would like to know what caused this, too. I definitely have suspicions, but the information needs to come out. I don’t think much can be learned from that ATC audio, but the CVR probably has some much more interesting conversation.


I doubt they had a 45 degree roll on liftoff, their is a video of a Lufthansa A320 series landing in gusting conditions which the wing tip touched the runway with an angle of bank of 23 degrees, it doesn’t take 45 degrees angle of bank to do that. See the video here https://www.aviation-accidents.net/luft ... ight-lh44/

If you were at 45 degree AOB that close to the runway you would not have flown away, the aircraft would cartwheel. Eg https://youtu.be/rLiZBsbWv-0
 
ranbidaraxflo
Posts: 19
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Re: Investigation gone quiet on AA300 incident

Thu Feb 11, 2021 4:03 pm

Could it be a vortex encounter immediately after rotation?? The US's use of "Caution Wake Vortex" seems to be used constantly!!
 
Antarius
Posts: 3436
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:27 pm

Re: Investigation gone quiet on AA300 incident

Thu Feb 11, 2021 4:07 pm

USAirKid wrote:
FLYBY72 wrote:
Well I decided to try the FOIA request with the NTSB and so far have gotten nowhere. They haven't even answered the request, I mean they have completely ignored it. Request was filed on 4 December 2020, status is "In Process". It has been that way longer than the required 20 days. I have since filed an appeal, which also is being ignored, "Assigned for Processing" since 28 January.


FLYBY72 wrote:
If they do not answer my appeal in 20 days I plan to appeal to the DOG Department of Information Policy.


I'm presuming you intended to type DOT Department of Information Policy. Which leads me to two questions:
1. A quickish search on Google didn't find a department by that name at the US DOT. Is that where you're planning on appealing this to?
2. The NTSB is an independent agency. It isn't a subsidiary administration of the US DOT. So why would you be appealing there?


I believe they meant to say DOJ.
 
11C
Posts: 283
Joined: Mon Jun 17, 2019 2:25 pm

Re: Investigation gone quiet on AA300 incident

Thu Feb 11, 2021 4:18 pm

zeke wrote:
11C wrote:

It’s all pretty strange. If I had a “45 degree roll” to the left on takeoff, I would probably glance out at that wingtip, which is visible from the cockpit. That damage would be hard to miss. I would like to know what caused this, too. I definitely have suspicions, but the information needs to come out. I don’t think much can be learned from that ATC audio, but the CVR probably has some much more interesting conversation.


I doubt they had a 45 degree roll on liftoff, their is a video of a Lufthansa A320 series landing in gusting conditions which the wing tip touched the runway with an angle of bank of 23 degrees, it doesn’t take 45 degrees angle of bank to do that. See the video here https://www.aviation-accidents.net/luft ... ight-lh44/

If you were at 45 degree AOB that close to the runway you would not have flown away, the aircraft would cartwheel. Eg https://youtu.be/rLiZBsbWv-0


I hear what your saying, I’m just referring to the vague reply the crew gave to ATC upon requesting a return to JFK. The 45 degree roll was reported to ATC. The 23 degrees was probably exaggerated (understandably) to 45 degrees. I can understand the vague communication in light of the fact that they may have been still trying to determine what happened. Maybe they did look out the window and see the damage, but were just reluctant to report it. Also understandable. I hope it was not a dual input situation. That would be hard to explain on a takeoff.
 
N965UW
Posts: 251
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2020 11:31 pm

Re: Investigation gone quiet on AA300 incident

Thu Feb 11, 2021 4:41 pm

11C wrote:
zeke wrote:
11C wrote:

It’s all pretty strange. If I had a “45 degree roll” to the left on takeoff, I would probably glance out at that wingtip, which is visible from the cockpit. That damage would be hard to miss. I would like to know what caused this, too. I definitely have suspicions, but the information needs to come out. I don’t think much can be learned from that ATC audio, but the CVR probably has some much more interesting conversation.


I doubt they had a 45 degree roll on liftoff, their is a video of a Lufthansa A320 series landing in gusting conditions which the wing tip touched the runway with an angle of bank of 23 degrees, it doesn’t take 45 degrees angle of bank to do that. See the video here https://www.aviation-accidents.net/luft ... ight-lh44/

If you were at 45 degree AOB that close to the runway you would not have flown away, the aircraft would cartwheel. Eg https://youtu.be/rLiZBsbWv-0


I hear what your saying, I’m just referring to the vague reply the crew gave to ATC upon requesting a return to JFK. The 45 degree roll was reported to ATC. The 23 degrees was probably exaggerated (understandably) to 45 degrees. I can understand the vague communication in light of the fact that they may have been still trying to determine what happened. Maybe they did look out the window and see the damage, but were just reluctant to report it. Also understandable. I hope it was not a dual input situation. That would be hard to explain on a takeoff.


I'm not a Bus driver so I'd be happy to be corrected if wrong, but isn't it common for the PF to press the side stick priority button, thus locking out dual inputs? Even if side stick priority were not selected, my understanding is that conflicting inputs would be canceled out, while similar inputs would increase their effectiveness (which could explain the severity of the roll, but just speculation until we see a report).
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Investigation gone quiet on AA300 incident

Thu Feb 11, 2021 9:31 pm

ranbidaraxflo wrote:
Could it be a vortex encounter immediately after rotation?? The US's use of "Caution Wake Vortex" seems to be used constantly!!


It’s “Caution Wake Turbulence”
 
USAirKid
Posts: 884
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 5:42 am

Re: Investigation gone quiet on AA300 incident

Fri Feb 12, 2021 12:13 am

Antarius wrote:
USAirKid wrote:
FLYBY72 wrote:
If they do not answer my appeal in 20 days I plan to appeal to the DOG Department of Information Policy.


I'm presuming you intended to type DOT Department of Information Policy. Which leads me to two questions:
1. A quickish search on Google didn't find a department by that name at the US DOT. Is that where you're planning on appealing this to?

I believe they meant to say DOJ.


Thank you. That makes more sense! And the relevant office would be the DOJ Office of Information Policy.
 
CATIIIevery5yrs
Posts: 220
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2016 4:40 am

Re: Investigation gone quiet on AA300 incident

Fri Feb 12, 2021 12:40 am

FOIA…… For an open investigation??? Good luck. It's an open investigation. There are many occurrences that don't make the website. These things take a lot of time. It's easy for an IIC to get swamped and handle the highest profile events first. There's many, many events that take years and years to be closed out, generally due to IIC workload and priority.

Your best bet would be to get on as a party member, lol.
 
777Mech
Posts: 1260
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2016 10:54 pm

Re: Investigation gone quiet on AA300 incident

Fri Feb 12, 2021 3:32 am

CATIIIevery5yrs wrote:
FOIA…… For an open investigation??? Good luck. It's an open investigation. There are many occurrences that don't make the website. These things take a lot of time. It's easy for an IIC to get swamped and handle the highest profile events first. There's many, many events that take years and years to be closed out, generally due to IIC workload and priority.

Your best bet would be to get on as a party member, lol.



There's nothing even saying there is an open investigation by the NTSB. An FOIA would at least shed light on what the status is of the investigation, (if there is one) and estimated docket date.

Hell they got Kobe's helicopter crash closed in a year. There isn't a backlog.
 
CATIIIevery5yrs
Posts: 220
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2016 4:40 am

Re: Investigation gone quiet on AA300 incident

Fri Feb 12, 2021 4:08 am

777Mech wrote:
CATIIIevery5yrs wrote:
FOIA…… For an open investigation??? Good luck. It's an open investigation. There are many occurrences that don't make the website. These things take a lot of time. It's easy for an IIC to get swamped and handle the highest profile events first. There's many, many events that take years and years to be closed out, generally due to IIC workload and priority.

Your best bet would be to get on as a party member, lol.



There's nothing even saying there is an open investigation by the NTSB. An FOIA would at least shed light on what the status is of the investigation, (if there is one) and estimated docket date.

Hell they got Kobe's helicopter crash closed in a year. There isn't a backlog.


Yes. Kobe Bryant. Of course that one was done in a year. Anything high profile across any of the boards areas of investigative responsibilities will get the boards quickest turnaround. There’s no public interest or public pressure for some answers in this particular AA occurrence. Which means any and all higher profile occurrences that happen in the meantime can and usually do take the investigators priority. Which means there’s not going to be any published facts for a while. If the AA Bus would have cartwheeled well then that’s a different story.

There’s a huge backlog and some investigations drag on way longer than anyone wants.
 
sevenair
Posts: 3007
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2001 7:18 am

Re: Investigation gone quiet on AA300 incident

Fri Feb 12, 2021 7:14 am

I think one of the most common aircraft in the world rolling 45 degrees after takeoff and writing itself off, seemingly at odds with what the pilots were trying to achieve is a priority.

The Bryant disaster was obvious from fairly early on. An over confident, under competent pilot pushing their luck with tragically predictable results just like pilots have been doing for over a century.

This AA flight could have serious consequences for flight safety for one of the worlds most popular aircraft. Can those of us who fly the A320 family learn something or is it just a case of accepting that occasionally itll roll 45 degrees after rotation, smack its wing off the ground as a mere 'Airbus quirk'?
 
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zeke
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Re: Investigation gone quiet on AA300 incident

Fri Feb 12, 2021 7:27 am

sevenair wrote:
I think one of the most common aircraft in the world rolling 45 degrees after takeoff and writing itself off, seemingly at odds with what the pilots were trying to achieve is a priority.

The Bryant disaster was obvious from fairly early on. An over confident, under competent pilot pushing their luck with tragically predictable results just like pilots have been doing for over a century.

This AA flight could have serious consequences for flight safety for one of the worlds most popular aircraft. Can those of us who fly the A320 family learn something or is it just a case of accepting that occasionally itll roll 45 degrees after rotation, smack its wing off the ground as a mere 'Airbus quirk'?


From what I understand there was nothing reported about 45 degree angle of bank from the crew, I am not sure where the initial report came from.

My understanding is they were climbing normally enroute passing FL200 when they were informed by ATC of the damage on the ground and then decided to return to have it checked out.

The return from what I understand was uneventful, the wing damage only discovered after landing.
 
teachpdx
Posts: 172
Joined: Wed Jun 28, 2017 1:51 am

Re: Investigation gone quiet on AA300 incident

Fri Feb 12, 2021 7:59 am

FLYBY72 wrote:
There is no reason this incident should be kept secret like this. There should at least be an entry in a database acknowledging that it happened.

I have also contacted the FAA and asked why it is not in their incident database. I mean it should at least be in ASIAS, well, it isn't. When I pressed the FAA on it, they said the NTSB was investigating, but would not say why there is no record of it. They also refused to answer why it was not included in any FAA incident data.


Thank you for pressing this, and please keep us informed of any developments. I’ve been shocked for months that this isn’t actually being investigated by the NTSB... especially when all the early indications pointed toward an open investigation.
 
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zeke
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Re: Investigation gone quiet on AA300 incident

Fri Feb 12, 2021 8:05 am

teachpdx wrote:
Thank you for pressing this, and please keep us informed of any developments. I’ve been shocked for months that this isn’t actually being investigated by the NTSB... especially when all the early indications pointed toward an open investigation.


And what would your response be if they find that the rumours were not true ?

There is no question the wing made contact with the sign, however what were the circumstances?

Where did this story originate from, the crew after all were blissfully unaware of this and were preceding to their destination until they were informed of the damage on the ground.
 
kalvado
Posts: 3308
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 am

Re: Investigation gone quiet on AA300 incident

Fri Feb 12, 2021 1:03 pm

zeke wrote:
teachpdx wrote:
Thank you for pressing this, and please keep us informed of any developments. I’ve been shocked for months that this isn’t actually being investigated by the NTSB... especially when all the early indications pointed toward an open investigation.


And what would your response be if they find that the rumours were not true ?

There is no question the wing made contact with the sign, however what were the circumstances?

Where did this story originate from, the crew after all were blissfully unaware of this and were preceding to their destination until they were informed of the damage on the ground.

Moreso a reason to investigate. QR 777 in Miami was somewhat similar, pilots were blissfully unaware of the damage and were preceding to their destination. No write off, but a full investigation.
It really doesn't make sense not to investigate an accident with $10M+ damage.
 
Antarius
Posts: 3436
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:27 pm

Re: Investigation gone quiet on AA300 incident

Fri Feb 12, 2021 1:51 pm

zeke wrote:
sevenair wrote:
I think one of the most common aircraft in the world rolling 45 degrees after takeoff and writing itself off, seemingly at odds with what the pilots were trying to achieve is a priority.

The Bryant disaster was obvious from fairly early on. An over confident, under competent pilot pushing their luck with tragically predictable results just like pilots have been doing for over a century.

This AA flight could have serious consequences for flight safety for one of the worlds most popular aircraft. Can those of us who fly the A320 family learn something or is it just a case of accepting that occasionally itll roll 45 degrees after rotation, smack its wing off the ground as a mere 'Airbus quirk'?


From what I understand there was nothing reported about 45 degree angle of bank from the crew, I am not sure where the initial report came from.

My understanding is they were climbing normally enroute passing FL200 when they were informed by ATC of the damage on the ground and then decided to return to have it checked out.

The return from what I understand was uneventful, the wing damage only discovered after landing.


Regardless, it isn't like the wingtip got scratched. The whole wing got bent so badly that the aircraft spent a year being evaluated and then was scrapped.

This is not a ho hum affair.
 
User avatar
zkojq
Posts: 4670
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Re: Investigation gone quiet on AA300 incident

Fri Feb 12, 2021 2:49 pm

Anyone got more photos of the plane being dismantled and scrapped?
 
bennett123
Posts: 10869
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

Re: Investigation gone quiet on AA300 incident

Fri Feb 12, 2021 3:34 pm

On this FOI issue, surely a response along the lines of 'An investigation has been logged, but due to the COVID situation, we are currently unable to confirm a timescale for completion of the investigation' would not be impossible.
 
asuflyer
Posts: 768
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2007 12:48 pm

Re: Investigation gone quiet on AA300 incident

Fri Feb 12, 2021 3:52 pm

The aircraft frame was removed from JFK a few weeks ago and was donated to the FDNY for use as a fire trainer at the FDNY Fire Training Academy in Randalls Island, NY.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CKJJIFPBTqc/
 
FlyingMSY
Posts: 42
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2016 10:06 pm

Re: Investigation gone quiet on AA incident

Fri Feb 12, 2021 4:15 pm

litz wrote:
Replacing a wing on a passenger jet is not a small operation ... sure the manufacturer has a procedure for doing so (as well as all associated part #s you'd have to order) ... but time/effort/cost? It's like a bent frame on a car : you go buy a new/used car.

So with that in mind, here's a question - outside of the AC797 wing used to fix a damaged Ozark aircraft, has a wing ever been whole-sale replaced on a jetliner?


Batik Flight 7703 was pretty seriously damaged yet got fully repaired.
 
sevenair
Posts: 3007
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2001 7:18 am

Re: Investigation gone quiet on AA300 incident

Fri Feb 12, 2021 4:26 pm

I just don't get how an accident that resulted in a write off went undetected until in the air. If the ground staff are a bit heavy handed in securing the tow bar, the first 10 rows of passengers know about it. However in this incident, something happens that is so severe that it ends in a wing being damaged and results in a write off, and nobody suspected a thing until ATC speak to them.

Fishy.
 
kalvado
Posts: 3308
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 am

Re: Investigation gone quiet on AA300 incident

Fri Feb 12, 2021 6:58 pm

bennett123 wrote:
On this FOI issue, surely a response along the lines of 'An investigation has been logged, but due to the COVID situation, we are currently unable to confirm a timescale for completion of the investigation' would not be impossible.

Very similar response along the lines of "an ongoing investigation docket #...." would be pretty informative.
Problem here is that there is no public trace of ongoing investigation. There is no even boilerplate preliminary report which NTSB system seemingly automatically generates with general case data.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 2686
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: Investigation gone quiet on AA300 incident

Fri Feb 12, 2021 7:03 pm

Antarius wrote:
zeke wrote:
sevenair wrote:
I think one of the most common aircraft in the world rolling 45 degrees after takeoff and writing itself off, seemingly at odds with what the pilots were trying to achieve is a priority.

The Bryant disaster was obvious from fairly early on. An over confident, under competent pilot pushing their luck with tragically predictable results just like pilots have been doing for over a century.

This AA flight could have serious consequences for flight safety for one of the worlds most popular aircraft. Can those of us who fly the A320 family learn something or is it just a case of accepting that occasionally itll roll 45 degrees after rotation, smack its wing off the ground as a mere 'Airbus quirk'?


From what I understand there was nothing reported about 45 degree angle of bank from the crew, I am not sure where the initial report came from.

My understanding is they were climbing normally enroute passing FL200 when they were informed by ATC of the damage on the ground and then decided to return to have it checked out.

The return from what I understand was uneventful, the wing damage only discovered after landing.


Regardless, it isn't like the wingtip got scratched. The whole wing got bent so badly that the aircraft spent a year being evaluated and then was scrapped.

This is not a ho hum affair.

The plane wasn’t under evaluation for a year. That was done fairly quickly. The issue was Airbus didn’t want any liability for the repair if it lead to an accident and the insurance company and AA kept going back and forth.

The global pandemic was the demise of this plane.
 
FLYBY72
Posts: 41
Joined: Mon Feb 08, 2021 4:16 am

Re: Investigation gone quiet on AA300 incident

Fri Feb 12, 2021 7:07 pm

Yes sorry, I meant to say DOJ.

Even if the 20 days and the 10 day extension have gone out the window, they could still answer the FOIA request with just that. The fact they are saying nothing is interesting.
 
Antarius
Posts: 3436
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:27 pm

Re: Investigation gone quiet on AA300 incident

Fri Feb 12, 2021 7:21 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
Antarius wrote:
zeke wrote:

From what I understand there was nothing reported about 45 degree angle of bank from the crew, I am not sure where the initial report came from.

My understanding is they were climbing normally enroute passing FL200 when they were informed by ATC of the damage on the ground and then decided to return to have it checked out.

The return from what I understand was uneventful, the wing damage only discovered after landing.


Regardless, it isn't like the wingtip got scratched. The whole wing got bent so badly that the aircraft spent a year being evaluated and then was scrapped.

This is not a ho hum affair.

The plane wasn’t under evaluation for a year. That was done fairly quickly. The issue was Airbus didn’t want any liability for the repair if it lead to an accident and the insurance company and AA kept going back and forth.

The global pandemic was the demise of this plane.


Got it. Thanks

Would you describe it as an odd incident? I've never heard of a case where such serious structural damage was caused and the pilots didn't really realize it.
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 16357
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: Investigation gone quiet on AA300 incident

Sat Feb 13, 2021 3:55 am

Antarius wrote:
Regardless, it isn't like the wingtip got scratched. The whole wing got bent so badly that the aircraft spent a year being evaluated and then was scrapped.

This is not a ho hum affair.


It is a matter of record that the wing made co tact with a sign, it is a matter of record that it is being scrapped.

Where is the evidence that the “whole wing got bent so badly”, the incident was unremarkable to the crew and they had a normal landing on return. This doesn’t go well with your claim of a “whole wing got bent so badly”. Again this is not something I have seen reported.
 
Antarius
Posts: 3436
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:27 pm

Re: Investigation gone quiet on AA300 incident

Sat Feb 13, 2021 4:41 am

zeke wrote:
Antarius wrote:
Regardless, it isn't like the wingtip got scratched. The whole wing got bent so badly that the aircraft spent a year being evaluated and then was scrapped.

This is not a ho hum affair.


It is a matter of record that the wing made co tact with a sign, it is a matter of record that it is being scrapped.

Where is the evidence that the “whole wing got bent so badly”, the incident was unremarkable to the crew and they had a normal landing on return. This doesn’t go well with your claim of a “whole wing got bent so badly”. Again this is not something I have seen reported.


There is a poster who is a mechanic from AA who has said so as have others. Also news: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/american-a ... -reported/

But just as the plane was beginning to lift off, it rolled to the left, causing the wing tip to scrape the ground. The wing then hit a runway sign and a light pole before pilots managed to regain control and continued the takeoff. The force of the impact bent the wing


And this fits perfectly with the timeline of the aircraft. If it was a scrape or a winglet or "unremarkable incident", the aircraft would have been back in service in 2019; peak aviation season and important to AA as they only have a handful of a321Ts in their fleet. It would not have sat for a year.

As for the comment about the roll, from the article
"We were banking, uncontrolled bank 45 degrees to the left," a pilot could be heard saying on the air traffic control audio of the incident.

"Turbulence from another aircraft?"

"I don't think so. There's a good cross wind but we had an uncommanded roll to the left as we rotated," he responded.
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 16357
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: Investigation gone quiet on AA300 incident

Sat Feb 13, 2021 5:03 am

Antarius wrote:
And this fits perfectly with the timeline of the aircraft. If it was a scrape or a winglet or "unremarkable incident", the aircraft would have been back in service in 2019; peak aviation season and important to AA as they only have a handful of a321Ts in their fleet. It would not have sat for a year.

As for the comment about the roll, from the article
"We were banking, uncontrolled bank 45 degrees to the left," a pilot could be heard saying on the air traffic control audio of the incident.

"Turbulence from another aircraft?"

"I don't think so. There's a good cross wind but we had an uncommanded roll to the left as we rotated," he responded.


I question the authenticity of this, as the crew continued the destination and only turned around after ATC told them they hit a sign after passing 20,000 ft. They didn’t declare an emergency and made a normal landing. If the wing was bent as you stated leading edge and trailing edge high lift devices would not retract after takeoff and then extend again for landing.

If I had a flight control issue like that is claiming I would stay low speed, I would not change configuration, declare an emergency and return for an immediate landing. That is why I described it as unremarkable, the crew actions don’t meat h up with what I would expect.

Likewise I have show. It only took 23 degrees angle of bank for the LH A320 to make runway contact with a wing, and that aircraft returned to service.

Wings are not designed to hit signs at the wingtip at rotation speeds, that places impact forces into the fasteners which they are not designed for. Got to remember the loads the wing body join see are as a moment of the distance from the wingtip to the fuselage.

If the sign impact was at low speed they simply could have removed the outer section of the wing and replaced it like in this video

https://youtu.be/eoswy2rIW5U
 
Antarius
Posts: 3436
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:27 pm

Re: Investigation gone quiet on AA300 incident

Sat Feb 13, 2021 5:15 am

zeke wrote:
Antarius wrote:
And this fits perfectly with the timeline of the aircraft. If it was a scrape or a winglet or "unremarkable incident", the aircraft would have been back in service in 2019; peak aviation season and important to AA as they only have a handful of a321Ts in their fleet. It would not have sat for a year.

As for the comment about the roll, from the article
"We were banking, uncontrolled bank 45 degrees to the left," a pilot could be heard saying on the air traffic control audio of the incident.

"Turbulence from another aircraft?"

"I don't think so. There's a good cross wind but we had an uncommanded roll to the left as we rotated," he responded.


I question the authenticity of this, as the crew continued the destination and only turned around after ATC told them they hit a sign after passing 20,000 ft. They didn’t declare an emergency and made a normal landing. If the wing was bent as you stated leading edge and trailing edge high lift devices would not retract after takeoff and then extend again for landing.

If I had a flight control issue like that is claiming I would stay low speed, I would not change configuration, declare an emergency and return for an immediate landing. That is why I described it as unremarkable, the crew actions don’t meat h up with what I would expect.

Likewise I have show. It only took 23 degrees angle of bank for the LH A320 to make runway contact with a wing, and that aircraft returned to service.

Wings are not designed to hit signs at the wingtip at rotation speeds, that places impact forces into the fasteners which they are not designed for. Got to remember the loads the wing body join see are as a moment of the distance from the wingtip to the fuselage.

If the sign impact was at low speed they simply could have removed the outer section of the wing and replaced it like in this video

https://youtu.be/eoswy2rIW5U


You're discarding multiple pieces of evidence from an AA mechanic, a news source, ATC records and a 1 year lack of return to service and scrapping.

I don't understand your argument at all. The crew behavior is certainly odd, so either they screwed up badly or something unexpected happened with the aircraft - that's why people want to know what happened. If it was a wingtip, don't you think AA would have changed it out and returned a highly in demand aircraft to service back in 2019?

See: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1452591#p22455367 a.net history has shown that Boof knows what he/she is talking about re: AA fleets.

Now, the "45 degree" part likely was a casual statement by the pilot. Likely was less. But whatever it was, it was serious enough to seemingly cause an aircraft to be scrapped.

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