for all airlines. That means couple of things:
1. Israeli airlines and UAE/Bahrain airlines could fly direct over Jordan.
2. UAE/Bahrain airlines could use IL/JO airspace for flights such as DXB-LHR.
3. ALL airlines (i.e. Lufthansa or DHL) could fly over IL and JO on their routes passing over IL and JO.
For Example: DHL flight from Liege to Colombo could fly over IL and JO.
The agreement was signed with the cooperation of EuroControl.

https://translate.google.co.il/translat ... D173113802
the google translation is bad.

To my opinion: this is a major step up in Mid East relationships.

This is a big deal as it allows a lot of carriers to avoid Syrian and Sinai airspace.

RJ has been flying to TLV. So i'm not sure I follow what has changed? There wasn't a beef between Jordan and Israel like the rest of the gulf states.

Antarius wrote:

RJ has been flying to TLV. So i'm not sure I follow what has changed? There wasn't a beef between Jordan and Israel like the rest of the gulf states.

Jordanian flights to Europe and North America were already allowed to use Israeli airspace, now Israeli and Jordanian airspace can be coupled together with Saudi airspace for flights to from UAE and Bahrain, not to mention India and the Far East.

AshFlops wrote:

Jordanian flights to Europe and North America were already allowed to use Israeli airspace, now Israeli and Jordanian airspace can be coupled together with Saudi airspace for flights to from UAE and Bahrain, not to mention India and the Far East.

Again, It is not just to/from UAE/Bahrain. It means that BA could fly from LHR to BOM over Israel and Jordan.

Great news indeed!
I was slightly surprised to see that such an agreement hadn't been in place before, given the fact that the relationship between Israel and Jordan have been relatively good for decades.

escapedia wrote:

for all airlines. That means couple of things:

3. ALL airlines (i.e. Lufthansa or DHL) could fly over IL and JO on their routes passing over IL and JO.

Lufthansa WAS flying above Israel on the way to Amman, Jordan.

dcaviation wrote:

escapedia wrote:

for all airlines. That means couple of things:

3. ALL airlines (i.e. Lufthansa or DHL) could fly over IL and JO on their routes passing over IL and JO.

Lufthansa WAS flying above Israel on the way to Amman, Jordan.

Yes, but this agreement allows third-country to third-country to overfly Israel and Jordan. As long as the airports on either end have aviation agreements with Israel and Jordan. So a flight from ATH to DXB can overfly, but a flight from ATH to THR cannot.

dcaviation wrote:

Lufthansa WAS flying above Israel on the way to Amman, Jordan.

And also Austrian and EasyJet. So?
But LH didn't fly over Israel except AMM.
Now they can fly to DBX and MLE for example over Jordan and Israel.
I guess people are not quite familiar with ME politics to understand this issue.

This is important for Europe-Asia/ME flights!

Flights now either need to pass as north as Belarus/Russia (avoiding eastern Ukraine) or as south as Red Sea/Egypt, since Iran and Syria are also to be avoided. I guess lately, they are not flying over Azerbaijan too, which would block the Caspian Sea/Azerbaijan/Georgia/Black Sea route.

Opening up Jordan/Israel actually provides the safest corridor, especially at a time when Belarus also doesn't look that stable.

Does this have any impact on the Qatar blockade or not? Has that been sorted?

AshFlops wrote:

This is a big deal as it allows a lot of carriers to avoid Syrian and Sinai airspace.

Not many airlines fly over Syria right now, but it allows much direct routings saving lot of money, time and emissions.


Also very good news for Fedex, UPS, right now they really have to go some extra miles from India, UAE, Bahrein to Europe.

Very good help for Emirates, specially flights to South Europe, and BEY.

In today world I can't understand some of the routings we fly, we should be able to fly much better optimize routes and much more direct, saving money, time and carbon emissions for everybody, North Atlantic, USA, Canada, Central Europe, Scandinavia, Italy are really good examples.

aa1818 wrote:

Does this have any impact on the Qatar blockade or not? Has that been sorted?

Nope.

migair54 wrote:

Very good help for Emirates, specially flights to South Europe, and BEY.

Flight to BEY will continue to detour over Sinai, since Israel and Lebanon don't have any diplomatic relations and consider each other as enemy.

it makes sense its just happening now because for overflights without being able to continue into Saudi Arabia to destinations further down range an expanded deal for overflight was pointless..

as I understand it you couldn't fly over Israel and then Saudi Arabia so Israel overflight was a moot point prior to the down range access now in place.

jayspilot wrote:

as I understand it you couldn't fly over Israel and then Saudi Arabia so Israel overflight was a moot point prior to the down range access now in place.

The only way to fly direct TLV-DXB is through KSA, and indeed KSA granted this. Having said that, it must apply to all flights not origin to/from Israel.

It seems even greater that I first thought, a bit unreal even.
From an official Israeli twitter.
KSA, Iraq and Qatar?

escapedia wrote:

It seems even greater that I first thought, a bit unreal even.
From an official Israeli twitter.
KSA, Iraq and Qatar?

https://twitter.com/IsraelArabic/status ... 2253158400

And more detailed in English
https://www.ynetnews.com/article/S1kFmKhUD
Even flights from china over passing Iran.
It's an aviation and political breakthrough for countries in the Middle East.

usflyer msp wrote:

migair54 wrote:

AshFlops wrote:

This is a big deal as it allows a lot of carriers to avoid Syrian and Sinai airspace.

Not many airlines fly over Syria right now, but it allows much direct routings saving lot of money, time and emissions.


Also very good news for Fedex, UPS, right now they really have to go some extra miles from India, UAE, Bahrein to Europe.

Very good help for Emirates, specially flights to South Europe, and BEY.

In today world I can't understand some of the routings we fly, we should be able to fly much better optimize routes and much more direct, saving money, time and carbon emissions for everybody, North Atlantic, USA, Canada, Central Europe, Scandinavia, Italy are really good examples.

I noticed that RJ's AMM-BEY flights take twice as long as ME's. It looks like the ME flights go over Syria while the RJ flights go south over the Sinai and then fly north over the meditteranean to BEY. I wonder if this will change that.

I don't think that's possible with this deal. It was mentioned upthread that a flight to Iran couldn't transit Israel, so I would imagine the same would be true for Lebanon. Perhaps a deal could be worked out where you could transit from Israeli to Lebanese airspace (or vice versa) by flying through Cypriot airspace in between the two. If FR24's FIR overlays are to be believed, Cyprus (or maybe North Cyprus, it's not clear from their map) controls most of the Eastern Med's airspace, so that would be a fairly short detour.

This development is in line with what Jared Kushner indicated a month ago when he said that Saudi had agreed to allow flights from Israel to any destination (not just the UAE) to cross its airspace. In his statement he also mentioned that Saudi flights will be allowed to cross Israeli airspace so there is a reciprocity aspect to this permission. https://www.jpost.com/middle-east/kushn ... ael-641705

Assuming Saudi Arabia will indeed allow flights from Israel to any eastward destination then this is a game changer as far as Israeli airlines are concerned given the giant detour they currently have to undertake in order to reach destinations in the east. It could also increase the amount of connecting traffic at TLV which up until now has been negligible (in 2019 only about 10,000 out of 24 million international passengers at TLV were in transit).

AshFlops wrote:

Antarius wrote:

not to mention India and the Far East.

why should it not be mentioned?

edealinfo wrote:

AshFlops wrote:

Antarius wrote:

not to mention India and the Far East.

why should it not be mentioned?

1. You got the quotes backwards
2. "Not to mention" does not mean "should not be mentioned".

EY88 from MXP to AUH is the first UAE carrier flight to cross the Israeli airspace enroute to the UAE


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xwb777 wrote:

EY88 from MXP to AUH is the first UAE carrier flight to cross the Israeli airspace enroute to the UAE


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That was fast..

Interesting that it only happened on the 14th. The flight on the 15th tracked over turkey.


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xwb777 wrote:

EY88 from MXP to AUH is the first UAE carrier flight to cross the Israeli airspace enroute to the UAE


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Was just checking the region on FR24 and noticed an A318 flying from TLV towards the UAE, right now over Saudia Arabia.
But since 2 days haven't seen any flight in transit over Israel except to Jordan (but that's nothing new). All BA, KL, AF to DXB or India still make the detour south of Eilat on the Red Sea... What a waste of petrol...

hervebkk wrote:

xwb777 wrote:

EY88 from MXP to AUH is the first UAE carrier flight to cross the Israeli airspace enroute to the UAE


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Was just checking the region on FR24 and noticed an A318 flying from TLV towards the UAE, right now over Saudia Arabia.
But since 2 days haven't seen any flight in transit over Israel except to Jordan (but that's nothing new). All BA, KL, AF to DXB or India still make the detour south of Eilat on the Red Sea... What a waste of petrol...

Hazard a guess the l’ordinateur software needs updating to allow such a flight plan to be entered in the systems

LY973 TLV-BHA
https://www.flightradar24.com/ELY973/25ccee75

Does anyone know where to find a map of the new airways that connect Israel, Jordan, and Saudi Arabia?

ELP727 wrote:

Does anyone know where to find a map of the new airways that connect Israel, Jordan, and Saudi Arabia?

N134 Eastbound terminated at SALAM north of Dead Sea, L53 Westbound starts at TALMI and flies towards the Meditereanean. They are already used for transit to / from Jordan over Israel, were also used for the flights to from AUH & other destinations in the region in the last few weeks.

What I wonder is, until when will the procedure "Uncoordinated flights over the Red Sea" as described in the links below will exist, and by when Elal and other Israeli bound airlines will transit normally at least over the Red Sea, before seeing them flying over Saudi Arabia towards the Far East and India.

https://www.icao.int/MID/Documents/MIDR ... report.pdf

viewtopic.php?t=575517

Good question regarding continuation of the "uncoordinated flights over the Red Sea". I assume they will be discontinued now with Israel gaining overflight rights to Saudi Arabia. And southbound routes to JNB can now overfly Sudan, so I'm not sure why it would be necessary for Israeli airlines to continue the practice.

Regarding the new airways, there's a reference and map of the new N134 and UN318 here. https://www.airlinestoisrael.com/post/n ... hey-matter.

hervebkk wrote:

ELP727 wrote:

Does anyone know where to find a map of the new airways that connect Israel, Jordan, and Saudi Arabia?

N134 Eastbound terminated at SALAM north of Dead Sea, L53 Westbound starts at TALMI and flies towards the Meditereanean. They are already used for transit to / from Jordan over Israel, were also used for the flights to from AUH & other destinations in the region in the last few weeks.

What I wonder is, until when will the procedure "Uncoordinated flights over the Red Sea" as described in the links below will exist, and by when Elal and other Israeli bound airlines will transit normally at least over the Red Sea, before seeing them flying over Saudi Arabia towards the Far East and India.

https://www.icao.int/MID/Documents/MIDR ... report.pdf

viewtopic.php?t=575517

LH has started today flying over Israel on routes to RUH and MLE according to the latest aviation agreements in the Mid East.. Nice.
Edit: also KLM AMS-KWI.

Here's the link to the Eurocontrol document that outlines the new airways and associated infrastructure and rules. It's #11.1

https://www.eurocontrol.int/publication ... opsis-rais

I think the biggest winner of this is EK and its DXB-LCA and soon enough Wizz Air with its AUH-LCA. Flights until now had to fly all the way south of Israel and then turn north towards Cyprus. Now they can just fly in a straight line over Jordan and Israel.

escapedia wrote:

LH has started today flying over Israel on routes to RUH and MLE according to the latest aviation agreements in the Mid East.. Nice.
Edit: also KLM AMS-KWI.

... and Swiss LX242 to DXB also took the route a few times already I noticed

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/lx242

It is well known that entry into TLV FIR requires a special procedure of identification (radio contact at180nm West of Ben Gurion).

This is routine for flights into TLV and the few flights going into AMM. But now if more and more flights transit towards the East, that means that a lot more companies will have to implement the procedure, or do Israeli Authorities not require this procedure for transit flights at high altitude?

escapedia wrote:

LH has started today flying over Israel on routes to RUH and MLE according to the latest aviation agreements in the Mid East.. Nice.
Edit: also KLM AMS-KWI.

What's really interesting is that the flight from AMS to KWI overflies Israel, but the return flight from KWI to AMS still detours over the Red Sea. I believe that is because Israel and Kuwait have no aviation security agreements in place as the flight boards in KWI. Flights from AMM and DXB/AUH/BAH can overfly in both directions.

AshFlops wrote:

escapedia wrote:

LH has started today flying over Israel on routes to RUH and MLE according to the latest aviation agreements in the Mid East.. Nice.
Edit: also KLM AMS-KWI.

What's really interesting is that the flight from AMS to KWI overflies Israel, but the return flight from KWI to AMS still detours over the Red Sea. I believe that is because Israel and Kuwait have no aviation security agreements in place as the flight boards in KWI. Flights from AMM and DXB/AUH/BAH can overfly in both directions.

It's because of the operating hours
SUN 21:00 (20:00) - MON 04:00 (03:00)
MON 21:00 (20:00) - TUE 04:00 (03:00)
TUE 21:00 (20:00) - WED 04:00 (03:00)
WED 21:00 (20:00) - THU 04:00 (03:00)
THU 21:00 (20:00) - SUN 04:00 (03:00)

Is there a reason for those hours?

PDXpat wrote:

Good question regarding continuation of the "uncoordinated flights over the Red Sea". I assume they will be discontinued now with Israel gaining overflight rights to Saudi Arabia. And southbound routes to JNB can now overfly Sudan, so I'm not sure why it would be necessary for Israeli airlines to continue the practice.

Regarding the new airways, there's a reference and map of the new N134 and UN318 here. https://www.airlinestoisrael.com/post/n ... hey-matter.

hervebkk wrote:

ELP727 wrote:

Does anyone know where to find a map of the new airways that connect Israel, Jordan, and Saudi Arabia?

N134 Eastbound terminated at SALAM north of Dead Sea, L53 Westbound starts at TALMI and flies towards the Meditereanean. They are already used for transit to / from Jordan over Israel, were also used for the flights to from AUH & other destinations in the region in the last few weeks.

What I wonder is, until when will the procedure "Uncoordinated flights over the Red Sea" as described in the links below will exist, and by when Elal and other Israeli bound airlines will transit normally at least over the Red Sea, before seeing them flying over Saudi Arabia towards the Far East and India.

https://www.icao.int/MID/Documents/MIDR ... report.pdf

viewtopic.php?t=575517

The "uncoordinated flights over the Red Sea" procedure seems to be still alive: Israir Flight 951 Southbound flying right now at FL290:

https://www.flightradar24.com/ISR951/26019951

Unique aviation procedure if you think about it: we tolerate you near us, you can talk to us but we will just ignore you

https://www.timesofisrael.com/saudi-air ... d-weather/
well at least now they did talk to them and help them per this article
wonder though what would have transpired a year or two ago in similar situation
if a civilian aircraft is in potential distress what are the aviation laws? (in case of flight near but not over a country with whom the airline country lacks diplomatic relations)

entdoc wrote:

https://www.timesofisrael.com/saudi-air-traffic-control-guides-israeli-plane-through-bad-weather/
well at least now they did talk to them and help them per this article
wonder though what would have transpired a year or two ago in similar situation
if a civilian aircraft is in potential distress what are the aviation laws? (in case of flight near but not over a country with whom the airline country lacks diplomatic relations)

In prior cases, the aircraft is impounded and nations with diplomatic relations work to get out the passengers, crew, and eventually the aircraft.

Without air transit rights, no aircraft may enter another nations airspace. So the lack of diplomatic relations, it is messy.

Lightsaber

What might have happened if an Israeli aircraft had a decompression over the Red Sea and the closest place to land was in KSA?


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entdoc wrote:

What might have happened if an Israeli aircraft had a decompression over the Red Sea and the closest place to land was in KSA?


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They’d let them land. Happened with NW in Iran.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/us-jet-lan ... n-capital/

[quote="entdoc"]What might have happened if an Israeli aircraft had a decompression over the Red Sea and the closest place to land was in KSA?

Alternates include Sharm el Sheikh, Hurghada, and other Egyptian airports, Asmara, and Djibouti.

escapedia wrote:

AshFlops wrote:

escapedia wrote:

LH has started today flying over Israel on routes to RUH and MLE according to the latest aviation agreements in the Mid East.. Nice.
Edit: also KLM AMS-KWI.

What's really interesting is that the flight from AMS to KWI overflies Israel, but the return flight from KWI to AMS still detours over the Red Sea. I believe that is because Israel and Kuwait have no aviation security agreements in place as the flight boards in KWI. Flights from AMM and DXB/AUH/BAH can overfly in both directions.

It's because of the operating hours
SUN 21:00 (20:00) - MON 04:00 (03:00)
MON 21:00 (20:00) - TUE 04:00 (03:00)
TUE 21:00 (20:00) - WED 04:00 (03:00)
WED 21:00 (20:00) - THU 04:00 (03:00)
THU 21:00 (20:00) - SUN 04:00 (03:00)

At least as of a few days ago when I last checked, the practice of eastbound flights overflying Israel but not westbound (to/from any destination) appears to be unconnected to the operating hours situation because you can see flights behaving this way at the same time. This didn’t used to be like this when the overflights first started (both directions were being used at the same time).

Again, this is affecting all flights, not just from KWI. I have no idea why this is happening.

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Any idea why is BA is not flying through the Jordanian and Israeli airspace ? Why are they following the same route?



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Fly baby has much of the information above Israeli airspace for transits remains time limited combined with the likelihood BA and others have yet to update their own flight planning programmes to recognise the existence of the corridor.

Interestingly the RAF/Air Tanker fleet continue to transit Israeli airspace every day in both directions and have done so well before the treaty