WN to Launch IAH and ORD service in 2021

aviationjunky · Mon Oct 12, 2020 5:26 pm

Will they terminate HOU, FLL, and MDW? Or are they planning to service both airports in all three markets?

Ishrion · Mon Oct 12, 2020 5:27 pm

aviationjunky wrote:
Will they terminate HOU, FLL, and MDW? Or are they planning to service both airports in all three markets?

Definitely no. ORD, IAH, and MIA will complement those bases.

N383SW · Mon Oct 12, 2020 5:29 pm

jayunited wrote:

Also dont forget United still owns gates at MDW that we lease out to WN. United also has a history of going into MDW for a year then leaving for several years, then going back in. I'm not saying UA is going to do that this time around but UA still owns gates at MDW and if (not saying we will) but if we wanted to we could go back into MDW once the lease on those gates are up.

Doesn’t United have gates at MDW from the merger with CO? CO’s gates were on concourse C and from what I recall WN doesn’t use the C gates. I could be totally off on this but the only airline I have seen using C at MDW is G4 and for a short bit, SY. iirc, DL had a gate on C but consolidated their 3 gates over on A. Nevertheless ya learn something new everyday lol.

jcwr56 · Mon Oct 12, 2020 5:32 pm

jayunited wrote:
ILikeTrains wrote:
F*** yea! No more having to drive an extra 30 minutes to fly WN! I really hope this is true.

I’m curious which terminal they would sit in at ORD.

They would have to go to terminal 5, UA owns terminal 1 and 75% of terminal 2, Delta owns the remaining gates in terminal 2, American own 98% of terminal 3, the remaining gates on the "L" concourse are split up amongst the LCCs/ULCC,s and B6 which only leave terminal 5.

Most of the airlines at ORD have long term leases and many of those leases were just resigned either in 2018 or 2019 Unless an airline at ORD has decided to return some gates to the City of Chicago then the only gates where Chicago has free rein at located at Terminal 5.

tphuang wrote:
UA is really not going to like this.

United is going head to head against WN at DEN during a pandemic and DEN is still our most profitable hub. UA's operations at DEN at one point back in April and May were down to 69 daily departures UA and UAX. United has rebuilt DEN from 69 daily departures to 254 daily departures and come November UA at DEN will be north of 300 daily departures. United has bee successful at DEN, with DEN having the highest load factors of any UA hub and DEN is still UA most profitable hub. Our hub at IAH came in second in terms of load factor we don't know where IAH ranks in terms of profitability Kirby did not mention it. But judging from UA's success in rebuilding DEN, UA knows how to go head to head with WN and win.

Also dont forget United still owns gates at MDW that we lease out to WN. United also has a history of going into MDW for a year then leaving for several years, then going back in. I'm not saying UA is going to do that this time around but UA still owns gates at MDW and if (not saying we will) but if we wanted to we could go back into MDW once the lease on those gates are up.

You need to read the lease, gates are not owned by United or Delta or American they are owned by the CDA and used on a preferential basis that can be adjusted on a yearly basis.

Cubsrule · Mon Oct 12, 2020 5:36 pm

N383SW wrote:
jayunited wrote:

Also dont forget United still owns gates at MDW that we lease out to WN. United also has a history of going into MDW for a year then leaving for several years, then going back in. I'm not saying UA is going to do that this time around but UA still owns gates at MDW and if (not saying we will) but if we wanted to we could go back into MDW once the lease on those gates are up.

Doesn’t United have gates at MDW from the merger with CO? CO’s gates were on concourse C and from what I recall WN doesn’t use the C gates. I could be totally off on this but the only airline I have seen using C at MDW is G4 and for a short bit, SY. iirc, DL had a gate on C but consolidated their 3 gates over on A. Nevertheless ya learn something new everyday lol.

CO was a signatory at MDW but abandoned the gates and the service before the merger. When UA served MDW in the 2004-2005 timeframe, they used a City gate on A.

United1 · Mon Oct 12, 2020 5:45 pm

jcwr56 wrote:
jayunited wrote:
ILikeTrains wrote:
F*** yea! No more having to drive an extra 30 minutes to fly WN! I really hope this is true.

I’m curious which terminal they would sit in at ORD.

They would have to go to terminal 5, UA owns terminal 1 and 75% of terminal 2, Delta owns the remaining gates in terminal 2, American own 98% of terminal 3, the remaining gates on the "L" concourse are split up amongst the LCCs/ULCC,s and B6 which only leave terminal 5.

Most of the airlines at ORD have long term leases and many of those leases were just resigned either in 2018 or 2019 Unless an airline at ORD has decided to return some gates to the City of Chicago then the only gates where Chicago has free rein at located at Terminal 5.

tphuang wrote:
UA is really not going to like this.

United is going head to head against WN at DEN during a pandemic and DEN is still our most profitable hub. UA's operations at DEN at one point back in April and May were down to 69 daily departures UA and UAX. United has rebuilt DEN from 69 daily departures to 254 daily departures and come November UA at DEN will be north of 300 daily departures. United has bee successful at DEN, with DEN having the highest load factors of any UA hub and DEN is still UA most profitable hub. Our hub at IAH came in second in terms of load factor we don't know where IAH ranks in terms of profitability Kirby did not mention it. But judging from UA's success in rebuilding DEN, UA knows how to go head to head with WN and win.

Also dont forget United still owns gates at MDW that we lease out to WN. United also has a history of going into MDW for a year then leaving for several years, then going back in. I'm not saying UA is going to do that this time around but UA still owns gates at MDW and if (not saying we will) but if we wanted to we could go back into MDW once the lease on those gates are up.

You need to read the lease, gates are not owned by United or Delta or American they are owned by the CDA and used on a preferential basis that can be adjusted on a yearly basis.

There is no evidence, even at the current reduced levels the airlines are flying, they are breaching the use covenants in their leases that would allow the CDA to reclaim any gates from their current tenants. While anything is possible T5 is pretty likely home for WN.

N383SW · Mon Oct 12, 2020 5:47 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
N383SW wrote:
jayunited wrote:

Also dont forget United still owns gates at MDW that we lease out to WN. United also has a history of going into MDW for a year then leaving for several years, then going back in. I'm not saying UA is going to do that this time around but UA still owns gates at MDW and if (not saying we will) but if we wanted to we could go back into MDW once the lease on those gates are up.

Doesn’t United have gates at MDW from the merger with CO? CO’s gates were on concourse C and from what I recall WN doesn’t use the C gates. I could be totally off on this but the only airline I have seen using C at MDW is G4 and for a short bit, SY. iirc, DL had a gate on C but consolidated their 3 gates over on A. Nevertheless ya learn something new everyday lol.

CO was a signatory at MDW but abandoned the gates and the service before the merger. When UA served MDW in the 2004-2005 timeframe, they used a City gate on A.

Thank you... sounds about right, I remember TED flew out of MDW but can’t remember where to and know it wasn’t for an extended period.

CALMSP · Mon Oct 12, 2020 5:48 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
N383SW wrote:
jayunited wrote:

Also dont forget United still owns gates at MDW that we lease out to WN. United also has a history of going into MDW for a year then leaving for several years, then going back in. I'm not saying UA is going to do that this time around but UA still owns gates at MDW and if (not saying we will) but if we wanted to we could go back into MDW once the lease on those gates are up.

Doesn’t United have gates at MDW from the merger with CO? CO’s gates were on concourse C and from what I recall WN doesn’t use the C gates. I could be totally off on this but the only airline I have seen using C at MDW is G4 and for a short bit, SY. iirc, DL had a gate on C but consolidated their 3 gates over on A. Nevertheless ya learn something new everyday lol.

CO was a signatory at MDW but abandoned the gates and the service before the merger. When UA served MDW in the 2004-2005 timeframe, they used a City gate on A.

yup, closed MDW with the layoffs in 2008.

CO did actually years before that toy around with the idea of MDW-LAX/SFO after ATA announced EWR-LAX/SFO. It never was implemented, but was a retaliatory thought.

Judge1310 · Mon Oct 12, 2020 5:51 pm

BMWdrvr75 wrote:
This is going to get everyone riled up on this page because this is an over the top speculation..... however, just bear with me on this, follow the logic... This is what’s happening let me tell you......
Chicago O’Hare United Airlines hub Houston’s Bush Continental Airlines previous headquarters. However, still large hubs for United. Although when Continental Airlines and United Airlines merged the new United kept their HDQ in Chicago... United has not been able to pull their you know what together and have been quickly retiring their Airbus 320s, 757s and 767s they will only be flying 737s, 777s,and 787’s. Southwest recently announced flying to Miami hey Siri United does not have a large presentation however can be grown to compete with American. Southwest Airlines seems to be putting all the pieces in place to buy United a large 737 international airline with widebody experience to grow Southwest to be the “worlds most flown airline” this new Southwest Airlines will keep headquarters iN Dallas, keep the United name and just fly a fleet of 737 and 787’s... boom Southwest just secured themselves a seat at the table to be one of the big three for the next 50 years.

Uhhh, you wanna pass a little of whatever you're drinking/smoking over there?

Q · Mon Oct 12, 2020 5:52 pm

I hope WN ORD-MKE costs $15 one way I would love to go to!

Q

twicearound · Mon Oct 12, 2020 5:57 pm

enilria wrote:
dolphinflyer wrote:
Andrew Waterson just announced at the Boyd Conference that Southwest will launch service to IAH and ORD during the first half of 2021. Details and schedules to be announced within the next few weeks.

Fits with the MIA move. Transition to being a full legacy.

Except they will never be a legacy airline. They could start hourly service to Heathrow tomorrow with A380’s and that still would not make them a US legacy carrier.

Nicknuzzii · Mon Oct 12, 2020 6:07 pm

Yet they are still irrelevant in NYC.

Jshank83 · Mon Oct 12, 2020 6:08 pm

I'd guess DAL/DEN will be likely from both. No competition to DAL from either and DEN is well.. DEN. It will be interesting to see where else they go. BWI probably has to be in play. MDW to IAH and HOU to ORD probably does also. And then some combo of STL (more for ORD)/BNA/ATL/PHX (more for HOU) and maybe Florida spots.

jco613 · Mon Oct 12, 2020 6:10 pm

I think the biggest difference between this announcement and MIA is these are two WN “hub” cities. Sure, someone in South Miami might fly MIA-HOU-LAS over FLL-DEN-LAS but is someone in the northern Chicago suburbs going to fly ORD-DEN-LAS over MDW-LAS? I don’t know but I see this as a different challenge in that these cities are the closest they have to hubs and I can tell you for sure that even if IAH-DAL returns it won’t be the only route from IAH.
Overall I like the moves but I’m cautiously optimistic.

Cubsrule · Mon Oct 12, 2020 6:23 pm

N383SW wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
N383SW wrote:

Doesn’t United have gates at MDW from the merger with CO? CO’s gates were on concourse C and from what I recall WN doesn’t use the C gates. I could be totally off on this but the only airline I have seen using C at MDW is G4 and for a short bit, SY. iirc, DL had a gate on C but consolidated their 3 gates over on A. Nevertheless ya learn something new everyday lol.

CO was a signatory at MDW but abandoned the gates and the service before the merger. When UA served MDW in the 2004-2005 timeframe, they used a City gate on A.

Thank you... sounds about right, I remember TED flew out of MDW but can’t remember where to and know it wasn’t for an extended period.

TED flew to DEN. They also had CR7s (operated by YV I think) to IAD. I cannot recall if TED operated some or all of the IAD flights for a stretch. In fact, in approximately 2004 all six then existing legacies served MDW: AA to DFW on S80s, CO to all three hubs at various points on ERJs, DL to ATL on mainline (MDW saw the Shuttle 738s), NW to DTW and MSP on mainline with limited CRJ service to MEM, and US to CLT on 50 seaters (I think also YV). Not too long thereafter, DL started MDW-LGA on S5 before moving the service to ORD.

BC77008 · Mon Oct 12, 2020 6:23 pm

Very interesting! I know the IAH to DAL route has been sorely missed by many business travelers who live in North Houston and have business in Central or East Dallas (and vice versa). I could easily see this route being part of their plans for IAH.

bob75013 · Mon Oct 12, 2020 6:24 pm

jayunited wrote:
Scarebus34 wrote:
Trying to capitalize on Kirbys conservative approach - UA may weather the storm, but will lose market share and come out in a weaker position. They’ve already created an enormous amount of animosity amongst the labor ranks that will last for decades that’s not going to be easily repaired. I’m afraid United is making some unforced errors throughout this crisis.

UA's weaker position? Correct me if I'm wrong but UA has already surpassed WN in daily departures out of DEN an airport we already go head to head with WN. .

Southwest is currently gate limited in Denver. Come back and discuss this after Southwest gets it's 16 new gates in concourse C.

Southwest can operate 8 flights/day out of it's Denver gates. 16 new gates means up to 128 new flights/day.

elbandgeek · Mon Oct 12, 2020 6:25 pm

joeblow10 wrote:
airtran737 wrote:
Assuming that WN will have to go to T5. Terminal 1-3 are filled up.

Even T5 can be a mess depending on the time of day. Afternoon especially. I’m also curious where they are going to go, and how many ops they’ll really be able to operate given the constraints. I could see it being a Dulles type operation with only 4-5 ops to limited cities daily

the T5 expansion is supposed to be done in 2022 and I'm not sure what if any net gain in gates will be right away if they move DL and start demoing T2 right away at that point, but it makes sense to me that they get a foot in the door now so that when the opportunity for new gates opens up they'll already have a seat at the table.

bob75013 · Mon Oct 12, 2020 6:27 pm

Nicknuzzii wrote:
Yet they are still irrelevant in NYC.

Yet they still fly more domestic passengers than EVERY other airline.

New York aint the center of the universe.

BNAMealer · Mon Oct 12, 2020 6:28 pm

elbandgeek wrote:
joeblow10 wrote:
airtran737 wrote:
Assuming that WN will have to go to T5. Terminal 1-3 are filled up.

Even T5 can be a mess depending on the time of day. Afternoon especially. I’m also curious where they are going to go, and how many ops they’ll really be able to operate given the constraints. I could see it being a Dulles type operation with only 4-5 ops to limited cities daily

the T5 expansion is supposed to be done in 2022 and I'm not sure what if any net gain in gates will be right away if they move DL and start demoing T2 right away at that point, but it makes sense to me that they get a foot in the door now so that when the opportunity for new gates opens up they'll already have a seat at the table.

I thought the OGT/T2 rebuild is being put on hold?

BNAMealer · Mon Oct 12, 2020 6:29 pm

bob75013 wrote:
jayunited wrote:
Scarebus34 wrote:
Trying to capitalize on Kirbys conservative approach - UA may weather the storm, but will lose market share and come out in a weaker position. They’ve already created an enormous amount of animosity amongst the labor ranks that will last for decades that’s not going to be easily repaired. I’m afraid United is making some unforced errors throughout this crisis.

UA's weaker position? Correct me if I'm wrong but UA has already surpassed WN in daily departures out of DEN an airport we already go head to head with WN. .

Southwest is currently gate limited in Denver. Come back and discuss this after Southwest gets it's 16 new gates in concourse C.

Southwest can operate 8 flights/day out of it's Denver gates. 16 new gates means up to 128 new flights/day.

You realize UA is getting 23 new gates on A in DEN (almost the entire western half of A)?

CO777DAL · Mon Oct 12, 2020 6:43 pm

Let's not forget UA is sub leasing two gates to WN at DAL. If UA really wants to get back at WN and make a real impact, they take thier gates back. DAL is WN bread and butter and there is only so many flights WN can add because of gate limitations. They want every gate they can get. That is at least 16 flights WN would lose at DAL. Not to mention WN would not try to waste the the remaining flights going against UA DAL to UA hubs. After this announcement UA Corporate Office would be foolish not to take a closer look at the sublease. Kirby knows the Dallas market well.

Nicknuzzii · Mon Oct 12, 2020 6:44 pm

bob75013 wrote:
Nicknuzzii wrote:
Yet they are still irrelevant in NYC.

Yet they still fly more domestic passengers than EVERY other airline.

New York aint the center of the universe.

No just the most populated city in the US.

TWA772LR · Mon Oct 12, 2020 7:05 pm

jayunited wrote:
ILikeTrains wrote:
F*** yea! No more having to drive an extra 30 minutes to fly WN! I really hope this is true.

I’m curious which terminal they would sit in at ORD.

They would have to go to terminal 5, UA owns terminal 1 and 75% of terminal 2, Delta owns the remaining gates in terminal 2, American own 98% of terminal 3, the remaining gates on the "L" concourse are split up amongst the LCCs/ULCC,s and B6 which only leave terminal 5.

Most of the airlines at ORD have long term leases and many of those leases were just resigned either in 2018 or 2019 Unless an airline at ORD has decided to return some gates to the City of Chicago then the only gates where Chicago has free rein at located at Terminal 5.

tphuang wrote:
UA is really not going to like this.

United is going head to head against WN at DEN during a pandemic and DEN is still our most profitable hub. UA's operations at DEN at one point back in April and May were down to 69 daily departures UA and UAX. United has rebuilt DEN from 69 daily departures to 254 daily departures and come November UA at DEN will be north of 300 daily departures. United has bee successful at DEN, with DEN having the highest load factors of any UA hub and DEN is still UA most profitable hub. Our hub at IAH came in second in terms of load factor we don't know where IAH ranks in terms of profitability Kirby did not mention it. But judging from UA's success in rebuilding DEN, UA knows how to go head to head with WN and win.

Also dont forget United still owns gates at MDW that we lease out to WN. United also has a history of going into MDW for a year then leaving for several years, then going back in. I'm not saying UA is going to do that this time around but UA still owns gates at MDW and if (not saying we will) but if we wanted to we could go back into MDW once the lease on those gates are up.

I would love to see UA announce MDW/DAL/HOU to hubs with unique connections not offered by WN or UA in ORD/IAH. Hell even SFO-DAL would be a huge stab at both AA and WN.

TripleA · Mon Oct 12, 2020 7:06 pm

Nicknuzzii wrote:
bob75013 wrote:
Nicknuzzii wrote:
Yet they are still irrelevant in NYC.

Yet they still fly more domestic passengers than EVERY other airline.

New York aint the center of the universe.

No just the most populated city in the US.

They've survived and done well for this long without a major presence in NYC. I think they'll be fine.

YoungDon · Mon Oct 12, 2020 7:07 pm

Nicknuzzii wrote:
bob75013 wrote:
Nicknuzzii wrote:
Yet they are still irrelevant in NYC.

Yet they still fly more domestic passengers than EVERY other airline.

New York aint the center of the universe.

No just the most populated city in the US.

They seem to have done just fine so far without being relevant in NYC.

With that said, I'm sure they would like to be stronger there and will evaluate opportunities to do that as they present themselves. But NYC is a totally different market than anywhere else with respect to market fragmentation and physical airport constraints.

Nicknuzzii · Mon Oct 12, 2020 7:10 pm

YoungDon wrote:
Nicknuzzii wrote:
bob75013 wrote:

Yet they still fly more domestic passengers than EVERY other airline.

New York aint the center of the universe.

No just the most populated city in the US.

They seem to have done just fine so far without being relevant in NYC.

With that said, I'm sure they would like to be stronger there and will evaluate opportunities to do that as they present themselves. But NYC is a totally different market than anywhere else with respect to market fragmentation and physical airport constraints.

Clearly WN has done fine without NYC. When have I said that they haven’t? I’m just not sure why they would want to be absent for the largest market in the US.

lx2iah · Mon Oct 12, 2020 7:11 pm

So...the BIG question @ IAH is: Which gate(s) will WN get to use? Most likely in Terminal A.

IAH has 5 Terminals. A, B, C, D, E. Terminal B is UA Express. Terminal C is UA and UA Express. Terminal D is International arrivals/departures. Terminal E is UA and UA / Star Alliance partners for Int'l.

Let's look at Terminal A.
Terminal A has gates A1, A2, A3 (a-h), A7, A8, A9, A10, A11, A12, A14, A15. These gates are on the north side of the terminal.
On the south side you have A17, A18, A19, A20, A24, A25, A26, A27, A28, A29 and A30.

Terminal A is occupied by United Express (UA), Delta/Delta Connection (DL), American/American Eagle (AA), Boutique Air, Air Canada (AC), Spirit (NK), Alaska (AS), Frontier (F9), JetBlue (B6) and WestJet (WS).

Terminal A north
Gates A1, A2 UA
Gates A3 (a-h) UA and Boutique Air
Gates A7, A8 UA
Gate A9 AC
Gates A10, A12, A14, A15 DL
Gate A11 AS

Terminal A south
Gates A17, A18, A19 NK
Gate A20 WS ?
Gate A24 B6
Gates A25, A26, A27, A28, A29, A30 AA

Source: http://www.fly2houston.com

So...Which gate(s) will WN use @ IAH. If guessing: A7, A8, or A20. That's not going to give them many flights from/to IAH utilizing 7-9 flights per gate.

Any thoughts?

jetmatt777 · Mon Oct 12, 2020 7:17 pm

BMWdrvr75 wrote:
This is going to get everyone riled up on this page because this is an over the top speculation..... however, just bear with me on this, follow the logic... This is what’s happening let me tell you......
Chicago O’Hare United Airlines hub Houston’s Bush Continental Airlines previous headquarters. However, still large hubs for United. Although when Continental Airlines and United Airlines merged the new United kept their HDQ in Chicago... United has not been able to pull their you know what together and have been quickly retiring their Airbus 320s, 757s and 767s they will only be flying 737s, 777s,and 787’s. Southwest recently announced flying to Miami hey Siri United does not have a large presentation however can be grown to compete with American. Southwest Airlines seems to be putting all the pieces in place to buy United a large 737 international airline with widebody experience to grow Southwest to be the “worlds most flown airline” this new Southwest Airlines will keep headquarters iN Dallas, keep the United name and just fly a fleet of 737 and 787’s... boom Southwest just secured themselves a seat at the table to be one of the big three for the next 50 years.

delusional.

alggag · Mon Oct 12, 2020 7:19 pm

I'm not surprised to see them finally enter ORD and return to IAH. I never understood why it was apparently acceptable to serve all the major airports in the greater LA area, Bay area, DC area (and most recently South Florida) but not Chicago and Houston? If they are happy with the results then I suspect that this all but guarantees that WN will also start token service to DFW/FTW/AFW whenever the 80 mile radius from DAL lockout rule expires.

jplatts · Mon Oct 12, 2020 7:21 pm

CO777DAL wrote:
Let's not forget UA is sub leasing two gates to WN at DAL. If UA really wants to get back at WN and make a real impact, they take thier gates back. DAL is WN bread and butter and there is only so many flights WN can add because of gate limitations. They want every gate they can get. That is at least 16 flights WN would lose at DAL. Not to mention WN would not try to waste the the remaining flights going against UA DAL to UA hubs. After this announcement UA Corporate Office would be foolish not to take a closer look at the sublease. Kirby knows the Dallas market well.

Prior to the COVID-19 pandemic, DL had previously stated that it wanted to add 8 additional flights out of the 2 gates at DAL that WN is currently subleasing from UA.

DL also insists on keeping access to gate 15 at DAL for its DAL-ATL nonstop flights, even if WN, UA, or other airlines operate some other flights out of that same gate.

bob75013 · Mon Oct 12, 2020 7:29 pm

alggag wrote:
I'm not surprised to see them finally enter ORD and return to IAH. I never understood why it was apparently acceptable to serve all the major airports in the greater LA area, Bay area, DC area (and most recently South Florida) but not Chicago and Houston? If they are happy with the results then I suspect that this all but guarantees that WN will also start token service to DFW/FTW/AFW whenever the 80 mile radius from DAL lockout rule expires.

No earlier than 2024.

DFW - never. Alliance and McKinney though sound pretty interesting - boxes AA in from the east, the middle and the west.

I'd love to see McKinney service and have said so for years.

SRQLOT · Mon Oct 12, 2020 7:29 pm

Wow! If Southwest does TPA-ORD I’ll hold on to their credit card otherwise it was going to go since I haven’t flown them in almost 3 years!

Kbud · Mon Oct 12, 2020 7:33 pm

BNAMealer wrote:
elbandgeek wrote:
joeblow10 wrote:

Even T5 can be a mess depending on the time of day. Afternoon especially. I’m also curious where they are going to go, and how many ops they’ll really be able to operate given the constraints. I could see it being a Dulles type operation with only 4-5 ops to limited cities daily

the T5 expansion is supposed to be done in 2022 and I'm not sure what if any net gain in gates will be right away if they move DL and start demoing T2 right away at that point, but it makes sense to me that they get a foot in the door now so that when the opportunity for new gates opens up they'll already have a seat at the table.

I thought the OGT/T2 rebuild is being put on hold?

Where did you read the project was put on hold? Obviously with air travel drastically down, it wouldn't be a surprise if it was slowed down, but I have not seen any announcement where it has been put on hold. I sure hope it is not slowed. Some airports outside the US are using the downturn as a way to actually speed up the construction of airport infrastructure projects to be able to close terminals all together, where as in the past they had to do the construction while using it at the same time.

drdisque · Mon Oct 12, 2020 7:46 pm

Route Guesses:

ORD-HOU, ATL, BWI, DAL, LAS, PHX, FLL, MCO, DEN
IAH-STL, DAL, MSY, MCO, BWI, DEN, LAS, MDW, SAN

SurfandSnow · Mon Oct 12, 2020 7:47 pm

This fits perfectly with WN's breadth over depth strategy. Of course, this has been the case in California for years, where WN FFers have had their pick between all of the SF Bay Area and Greater Los Angeles airports. I should think this strategy has also been somewhat successful on the East Coast as well, what with Boston and Baltimore/Washington area travelers each getting their pick between 3 airports when flying WN.

Perhaps WN's recent addition of MIA has been so well received (FLL and PBI just aren't going to work for everyone living in or visiting South Florida) that WN realized it should reexamine its longtime strategy of serving Chicago exclusively via MDW and MKE (for those in the northern suburbs close to Wisconsin) and making everyone headed to/from Houston use HOU. Given the massive sprawl of Chicagoland and Greater Houston, this does make sense. Some folks really do prefer their local airport and will not cross town to use a more distant alternative. Now, will WN reconsider EWR or attempt to add JFK? I believe DAL may have to be the sole gateway to the DFW Metroplex for another few years...

Cubsrule · Mon Oct 12, 2020 7:49 pm

drdisque wrote:
Route Guesses:

ORD-HOU, ATL, BWI, DAL, LAS, PHX, FLL, MCO, DEN
IAH-STL, DAL, MSY, MCO, BWI, DEN, LAS, MDW, SAN

What's your thinking on listing the shorter, not as mega-station focused flights out of IAH (STL, MSY) but not out of ORD?

Italianflyer · Mon Oct 12, 2020 7:58 pm

Countdown to UA announcing their return to MDW & (CO days) HOU in......3....2....

Midwestindy · Mon Oct 12, 2020 7:59 pm

IAH-BWI, DAL, DEN, MCO, TPA, MDW, PHX
ORD-HOU, DEN, TPA, MCO, BWI

wnflyguy · Mon Oct 12, 2020 8:14 pm

ORD - 5 DEN, 3 HOU and 4 BWI
IAH - 5 DEN , 3 MDW and 4 BWI
With business demands down I see them feeding other hubs vs doing anything like IAH-DAL again.
But they did MIA-TPA so who knows .-

Flyguy

BNAMealer · Mon Oct 12, 2020 8:16 pm

Kbud wrote:
BNAMealer wrote:
elbandgeek wrote:

the T5 expansion is supposed to be done in 2022 and I'm not sure what if any net gain in gates will be right away if they move DL and start demoing T2 right away at that point, but it makes sense to me that they get a foot in the door now so that when the opportunity for new gates opens up they'll already have a seat at the table.

I thought the OGT/T2 rebuild is being put on hold?

Where did you read the project was put on hold? Obviously with air travel drastically down, it wouldn't be a surprise if it was slowed down, but I have not seen any announcement where it has been put on hold. I sure hope it is not slowed. Some airports outside the US are using the downturn as a way to actually speed up the construction of airport infrastructure projects to be able to close terminals all together, where as in the past they had to do the construction while using it at the same time.

https://www.enr.com/articles/50107-chicago-debt-document-says-85b-ohare-revamp-may-be-delayed

They will finish what they've started (i.e, runway and T5 expansion), but the meat of the project (the T2 rebuild into the OGT) may be pushed back as they haven't started and they likely won't be able to issue the bonds needed to start it as there isn't enough revenue coming in due to passenger traffic being down.

usflyer msp · Mon Oct 12, 2020 8:22 pm

I see this as a reaction to the death of change fees on the legacy carriers. WN has realized that the primary incentive for business travelers to choose them over the carriers that fly to more convenient airports is now gone. WN had to come to its customer base instead of customers coming to them.

YoungDon · Mon Oct 12, 2020 8:28 pm

bob75013 wrote:
alggag wrote:
I'm not surprised to see them finally enter ORD and return to IAH. I never understood why it was apparently acceptable to serve all the major airports in the greater LA area, Bay area, DC area (and most recently South Florida) but not Chicago and Houston? If they are happy with the results then I suspect that this all but guarantees that WN will also start token service to DFW/FTW/AFW whenever the 80 mile radius from DAL lockout rule expires.

No earlier than 2024.

DFW - never. Alliance and McKinney though sound pretty interesting - boxes AA in from the east, the middle and the west.

I'd love to see McKinney service and have said so for years.

What's your thinking on service to McKinney vs. FTW? I could see arguments either way if a third DFW airport eventually gets commercial service. FTW has a larger population nearby but TKI has more businesses and a wealthier population within its area. I think FTW has more potential personally, but the area around TKI is definitely faster growing.

SWADawg · Mon Oct 12, 2020 8:31 pm

BNAMealer wrote:
Kbud wrote:
BNAMealer wrote:

I thought the OGT/T2 rebuild is being put on hold?

Where did you read the project was put on hold? Obviously with air travel drastically down, it wouldn't be a surprise if it was slowed down, but I have not seen any announcement where it has been put on hold. I sure hope it is not slowed. Some airports outside the US are using the downturn as a way to actually speed up the construction of airport infrastructure projects to be able to close terminals all together, where as in the past they had to do the construction while using it at the same time.

https://www.enr.com/articles/50107-chicago-debt-document-says-85b-ohare-revamp-may-be-delayed

They will finish what they've started (i.e, runway and T5 expansion), but the meat of the project (the T2 rebuild into the OGT) may be pushed back as they haven't started and they likely won't be able to issue the bonds needed to start it as there isn't enough revenue coming in due to passenger traffic being down.

What if WN offered to foot the bill for their own Terminal project at ORD. I know new plans would probably have to be drawn up, but WN does have a history of paying for Terminal expansion projects out of their own pockets. (STL, DAL, HOU, FLL, LAX and BNA) all come to mind.

Cubsrule · Mon Oct 12, 2020 8:43 pm

usflyer msp wrote:
I see this as a reaction to the death of change fees on the legacy carriers. WN has realized that the primary incentive for business travelers to choose them over the carriers that fly to more convenient airports is now gone. WN had to come to its customer base instead of customers coming to them.

What’s “more convenient” in a global sense about IAH or ORD?

BNAMealer · Mon Oct 12, 2020 8:45 pm

SWADawg wrote:
BNAMealer wrote:
Kbud wrote:
Where did you read the project was put on hold? Obviously with air travel drastically down, it wouldn't be a surprise if it was slowed down, but I have not seen any announcement where it has been put on hold. I sure hope it is not slowed. Some airports outside the US are using the downturn as a way to actually speed up the construction of airport infrastructure projects to be able to close terminals all together, where as in the past they had to do the construction while using it at the same time.

https://www.enr.com/articles/50107-chicago-debt-document-says-85b-ohare-revamp-may-be-delayed

They will finish what they've started (i.e, runway and T5 expansion), but the meat of the project (the T2 rebuild into the OGT) may be pushed back as they haven't started and they likely won't be able to issue the bonds needed to start it as there isn't enough revenue coming in due to passenger traffic being down.

What if WN offered to foot the bill for their own Terminal project at ORD. I know new plans would probably have to be drawn up, but WN does have a history of paying for Terminal expansion projects out of their own pockets. (STL, DAL, HOU, FLL, LAX and BNA) all come to mind.

Not going to happen. The existing airlines have already negotiated the lease and the OGT would have almost nothing to do with WN anyway. Why would WN need its own terminal project anyway when they are only going to start token service to begin with? Plus, where would it go?

And I don't think WN has ever paid for any special terminal expansion at BNA beyond the normal lease payments. They would be wise to help pay for Phase 2 whenever that happens so they can get exclusive gates.

maverick4002 · Mon Oct 12, 2020 8:46 pm

Admittedly I have never flown them but I dont get the hype per say.

When they announced Hawai, everyone in the travel groups I am in lost their collective shirts.

I live in the NYC area and they are a non-entity here. I had to go to ATL in 2019 and WN was by far the highest in price AND they were offering a bunch of random connections via Baltimore or Nashville. I went with the direct DL flight that was also cheaper. I also remember my friend in college flying back to the West Coast via WN and he would take flights with multiple stops. Now he had a friend or something so didnt pay full fare and obviously that helps in college, but I find it fascinating that their model allows for all these stops but they are still doing so well. I am sure there is more to it (too lazy to research) but good for them to be honest.

IAHWorldflyer · Mon Oct 12, 2020 9:02 pm

I think when WN closed it's IAH station in 2005 the only route served was IAH-DAL. That's it. It was there to satisfy the local business community that had offices in north Houston/The Woodlands and would not commute down to Hobby. I would be shocked to see them serve much more from IAH than DAL, DEN, BWI, LAX, and maybe LAS.

jayunited · Mon Oct 12, 2020 9:09 pm

tphuang wrote:

I'm not saying UA is in trouble at ORD. If anything, AA is more likely to bring things back more slowly. Even so, WN moving into ORD would have an adverse affect on UA's performance there. Same with IAH.

I think there might be some businesses more willing to fly on WN now that they also offer service out of the primary airport in Chicago and Houston.

That makes no sense both airports in Chicago are equally accessible. Both ORD and MDW can be access equally by the expressway, the a network of city and suburban buses, and the "L". MDW is actually closer to downtown Chicago than ORD.

If people were to drive to MDW and take a stroll through the parking lots you would not only see tons of Chicago "city stickers" in the front windows you would also see a lot of city stickers from North and Western suburbs in addition to seeing a lot of Wisconsin license plates. The same is true at ORD a lot of people from the South suburbs and Northwest Indiana bypass MDW to fly out of ORD.

WN's appeal in the Chicagoland region extends far beyond the south side of the city, the Southern suburbs and Northwest Indiana.

WNCrew · Mon Oct 12, 2020 9:20 pm

joeblow10 wrote:

On another note - this is bound to make tensions with employees (FAs, pilots) worse. Not only is the expansion continuing while asking for pay cuts - now crews will likely have to commute across town, in base... certainly wouldn't make me happy. Somebody let me know if the WN contract says otherwise...

Our current contract do not include any language for "co-domiciles". So As it stands, MDW crews are not expected to report to MKE, BWI crews do not cover IAD/DCA, LAX crews don't cover ONT/SNA/LGB/BUR etc. WN has and will simply deadhead a crew LAX-LAS-BUR to get a BUR flight covered. I've never even taken ground transport to a co-domicile.

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