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UWPAviation
Posts: 159
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2016 7:36 pm

Re: WN to Launch IAH and ORD service in 2021

Tue Oct 13, 2020 2:06 am

Midwestindy wrote:
UA management isn't going to like this at all, they already have to deal with B6 in EWR now WN in ORD/IAH

This is big for people in the northern suburbs of Chicago, WN was normally never an option for me.

I wonder if this has any impact on WN's MKE service, likely a limited amount, but could be interesting....


It won’t impact MKE at all. Yes MKE see's a lot of northern Illinois burbs traffic and they still will. I know plenty of people in the Gurnee area that would rather drive up to MKE do to its ease at the airport then deal with ORD. Plus WN pulls people from all around Wisconsin to MKE. I’m sure we will probably not see a lot of growth out of WN here now. But people in the greater Milwaukee-land area are used to driving to ORD when we can’t get flights out of MKE.

If anything this will benefit WN. WN is already the dominate carrier in WI. Now when we can’t get a flight out of MKE we can just drive down to ORD. MDW is too far of a drive, in my opinion.
 
United1
Posts: 4251
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 9:21 am

Re: WN to Launch IAH and ORD service in 2021

Tue Oct 13, 2020 2:08 am

BNAMealer wrote:
wnflyguy wrote:
Well heard from my Chicago peeps United wasted no time today by close of business it sent the CDA a letter of expressed interest about the available gates and office space at MDW.

Get your popcorn ready.

Flyguy


For what? What could they add at MDW that would be to their advantage?

Let me guess, AA will come as well?


I would be surprised if UA launched MDW flights but stranger things could happen. Probably just a couple of gates with a handful of flights to DEN, IAH and EWR. Basically the same concept as WN at ORD....a few flights to a few larger hubs.
I know the voices in my head aren't real but sometimes their ideas are just awesome!!!
 
Flflyer83
Posts: 126
Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2020 4:40 pm

Re: WN to Launch IAH and ORD service in 2021

Tue Oct 13, 2020 2:16 am

bob75013 wrote:
Flflyer83 wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:
I see this as a reaction to the death of change fees on the legacy carriers. WN has realized that the primary incentive for business travelers to choose them over the carriers that fly to more convenient airports is now gone. WN had to come to its customer base instead of customers coming to them.


HOU is closer to downtown Houston, the Texas Medical Center, Greenway Plaza, and the Galleria area of Houston than IAH is, so I’m not sure how IAH is more convenient, unless the traveler is going to far north Houston or The Woodlands.

ORD is no closer to downtown Chicago than MDW is. ORD does have a small business hub nearby, but downtown Chicago is, by far, the business destination in Chicago.

Do you know much about either city to make the claim that IAH and ORD are more convenient airports for the respective cities?


So, tell us where more of the business flying public in Chicago resides - closer to ORD or MDW? (hint: it ain't MDW)


I would say that those that live downtown, the west loop, Lincoln Park, Gold Coast, Wrigleyville, North/Clyborn, Streeterville, River North, South Loop, etc., etc., etc. have a pretty large demographic that would consist of the business flying public and it’s much quicker to head down Lake Shore Drive and out 55 than it is out through the city and up 90.
 
GSP psgr
Posts: 764
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2000 7:09 am

Re: WN to Launch IAH and ORD service in 2021

Tue Oct 13, 2020 2:30 am

BNAMealer wrote:
wnflyguy wrote:
Well heard from my Chicago peeps United wasted no time today by close of business it sent the CDA a letter of expressed interest about the available gates and office space at MDW.

Get your popcorn ready.

Flyguy


For what? What could they add at MDW that would be to their advantage?

Let me guess, AA will come as well?


IIRC, the last time PMUA tried MDW, it was with Ted to IAD and DEN. My guess is that they'd do MDW-EWR/DEN with E75s; maybe also IAH, but I think there's less of a business case for it.

I also wonder if UA's suddenly interested in gates at HOU.
 
COflyerBOS
Posts: 182
Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2007 7:04 am

Re: WN to Launch IAH and ORD service in 2021

Tue Oct 13, 2020 2:39 am

While HOU is closer as the crow flies to downtown, NASA, Bay Area, UH/Rice/TSU, TMC, inner loop, and Uptown it really has just one major artery I-45 nearby. IAH has 45, 59, Sam Houston tollway, and Hardy Toll Road. I lived near Rice and getting to IAH was usually easier than HOU despite the longer distance.

Additionally, the Energy Corridor/Westchase area out in West Houston on I-10/Beltway have much easier access to IAH as do the wealthy suburbs like The Woodlands, Cypress, Katy, Cinco Ranch, etc...
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 14977
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

Re: WN to Launch IAH and ORD service in 2021

Tue Oct 13, 2020 2:43 am

Flflyer83 wrote:
bob75013 wrote:
Flflyer83 wrote:

HOU is closer to downtown Houston, the Texas Medical Center, Greenway Plaza, and the Galleria area of Houston than IAH is, so I’m not sure how IAH is more convenient, unless the traveler is going to far north Houston or The Woodlands.

ORD is no closer to downtown Chicago than MDW is. ORD does have a small business hub nearby, but downtown Chicago is, by far, the business destination in Chicago.

Do you know much about either city to make the claim that IAH and ORD are more convenient airports for the respective cities?


So, tell us where more of the business flying public in Chicago resides - closer to ORD or MDW? (hint: it ain't MDW)


I would say that those that live downtown, the west loop, Lincoln Park, Gold Coast, Wrigleyville, North/Clyborn, Streeterville, River North, South Loop, etc., etc., etc. have a pretty large demographic that would consist of the business flying public and it’s much quicker to head down Lake Shore Drive and out 55 than it is out through the city and up 90.


It largely depends if you are driving or taking the El. On the El, MDW wins hands down from virtually anywhere. Driving, it's more complicated because there are lots of ways to get to ORD from the north side but few ways to get to MDW that do not involve getting through downtown or driving a long way out of the way. And in the last 10 or 15 years, traffic on the Stevenson has gotten a lot worse.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
United1
Posts: 4251
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 9:21 am

Re: WN to Launch IAH and ORD service in 2021

Tue Oct 13, 2020 2:50 am

Flflyer83 wrote:
bob75013 wrote:
Flflyer83 wrote:

HOU is closer to downtown Houston, the Texas Medical Center, Greenway Plaza, and the Galleria area of Houston than IAH is, so I’m not sure how IAH is more convenient, unless the traveler is going to far north Houston or The Woodlands.

ORD is no closer to downtown Chicago than MDW is. ORD does have a small business hub nearby, but downtown Chicago is, by far, the business destination in Chicago.

Do you know much about either city to make the claim that IAH and ORD are more convenient airports for the respective cities?


So, tell us where more of the business flying public in Chicago resides - closer to ORD or MDW? (hint: it ain't MDW)


I would say that those that live downtown, the west loop, Lincoln Park, Gold Coast, Wrigleyville, North/Clyborn, Streeterville, River North, South Loop, etc., etc., etc. have a pretty large demographic that would consist of the business flying public and it’s much quicker to head down Lake Shore Drive and out 55 than it is out through the city and up 90.


Errm no Wrigleyville, Boystown and Lincoln Park, River North ect are a bit closer to O'hare...basically anything north of the Chicago River...and no one who lived in Chicago ever said LSD was the fastest way to anywhere :)

The loop itself is relatively equidistant from both MDW and ORD...it's a 20-25 minute drive to both assuming you don't hit traffic.

Cubsrule is right about if you are taking the El though...the Orange line is faster than the Blue line.
Last edited by United1 on Tue Oct 13, 2020 2:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
I know the voices in my head aren't real but sometimes their ideas are just awesome!!!
 
airzona11
Posts: 1841
Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2014 5:44 am

Re: WN to Launch IAH and ORD service in 2021

Tue Oct 13, 2020 2:51 am

Exciting to see. WN is already known is these markets, just growing the catchment area. On the stretch idea side, on the international connection side, with business models changing or evolving, the likes of Emirates comes to mind as possible partners. Yes southwest doesn’t do that, yes connecting traffic is less valuable, etc. but with depressed overall numbers, maybe that’s on the road map too. Stretch idea over.
 
cm642
Posts: 120
Joined: Fri Oct 02, 2015 8:16 pm

Re: WN to Launch IAH and ORD service in 2021

Tue Oct 13, 2020 3:04 am

Going after AA as well, with them starting PHX-CLT without a doubt PHX-ORD won't be far behind especially with all the Chicagoans that live here.
 
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piedmontf284000
Posts: 496
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 12:00 pm

Re: WN to Launch IAH and ORD service in 2021

Tue Oct 13, 2020 3:07 am

United1 wrote:
BNAMealer wrote:
wnflyguy wrote:
Well heard from my Chicago peeps United wasted no time today by close of business it sent the CDA a letter of expressed interest about the available gates and office space at MDW.

Get your popcorn ready.

Flyguy


For what? What could they add at MDW that would be to their advantage?

Let me guess, AA will come as well?


I would be surprised if UA launched MDW flights but stranger things could happen. Probably just a couple of gates with a handful of flights to DEN, IAH and EWR. Basically the same concept as WN at ORD....a few flights to a few larger hubs.


Business travel is dead right now. IAH and EWR really make no sense unless you are trying to connect people which they can do it at ORD. I think UA will try to hit WN where it hurts. Look for flights to Florida, California, Seattle, Denver and Phoenix I think United will get two to three gates at MDW when it is all said and done.
 
737MAX7
Posts: 180
Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2017 7:26 pm

Re: WN to Launch IAH and ORD service in 2021

Tue Oct 13, 2020 5:19 am

swacle wrote:
737MAX7 wrote:
Flflyer83 wrote:

WN is literally opening new stations to spread out airplanes and people to TRY furlough fewer employees come January. If you don’t like it, play chicken but don’t bitch when you’re on the losing end.

How is opening new stations that will most likely be contracted out helping me?

ORD won't be contract. IAH won't be contract. MIA is not contract. You eant to see what WN is going to do with ORD, MIA, and IAH? Look at the reentry into SFO 10 years ago.

As a former CLE ramper with you I whole heartedly disagree. If they stay at 12 flights and under I will believe it will be contract.
 
ctrabs0114
Posts: 1117
Joined: Mon Oct 09, 2017 8:09 am

Re: WN to Launch IAH and ORD service in 2021

Tue Oct 13, 2020 5:41 am

BMWdrvr75 wrote:
This is going to get everyone riled up on this page because this is an over the top speculation..... however, just bear with me on this, follow the logic... This is what’s happening let me tell you......
Chicago O’Hare United Airlines hub Houston’s Bush Continental Airlines previous headquarters. However, still large hubs for United. Although when Continental Airlines and United Airlines merged the new United kept their HDQ in Chicago... United has not been able to pull their you know what together and have been quickly retiring their Airbus 320s, 757s and 767s they will only be flying 737s, 777s,and 787’s. Southwest recently announced flying to Miami hey Siri United does not have a large presentation however can be grown to compete with American. Southwest Airlines seems to be putting all the pieces in place to buy United a large 737 international airline with widebody experience to grow Southwest to be the “worlds most flown airline” this new Southwest Airlines will keep headquarters iN Dallas, keep the United name and just fly a fleet of 737 and 787’s... boom Southwest just secured themselves a seat at the table to be one of the big three for the next 50 years.


Over the top would be the understatement of the century. It took me three or four readings to figure out what the hell you were talking about.
2019: DAL, MCI, PHX, LAS, DFW, SAT, ORD, SLC, SEA, DTW, PHL, MIA, LAX; B73G (WN x3), B738 (WN, AA, DL), A20N (NK), MD83 (AA), B788 (AA x2), CS1 (DL), B739 (DL), B712 (DL), B752 (AA), B763 (AA), B77W (AA), B789 (AA)
Next: TBA
 
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Boiler905
Posts: 84
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2010 4:05 am

Re: WN to Launch IAH and ORD service in 2021

Tue Oct 13, 2020 6:03 am

YoungDon wrote:
They're taking advantage of perceived weakness by the hub carriers, UA in particular.

Excited to see what they're planning on adding initially out of IAH (even though I prefer to use HOU when possible). I'm thinking BWI, LAX, FLL, MDW, and maybe DEN or PHX to start with?


I think IAH & ORD are more about becoming more relevant to more of the corporate traffic.

My guess on IAH service will be markets driven by the oil industry + some leisure: DAL (5x), SAT (3x), MAF (2x), MSY (2x), DEN (2x), BNA (2x), BWI (1x), LAX (1x), LAS (1x), TUL (1x), MCO (1x), TPA (1x), FLL (1x), ECP (Sat only)

The big question for me is if WN is adding these airports as destinations or more to expand their reach within these respective origin markets of Chicago & Houston? I could go either way on answering it.
Boiler Up
 
dopplerd
Posts: 120
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2016 7:30 pm

Re: WN to Launch IAH and ORD service in 2021

Tue Oct 13, 2020 6:21 am

airtran737 wrote:
Assuming that WN will have to go to T5. Terminal 1-3 are filled up.


That's what I would guess. I wonder if they know there is now a T5 jetbridge (M22) that reaches most of the way back to Midway.
 
jcwr56
Posts: 1027
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2012 11:36 am

Re: WN to Launch IAH and ORD service in 2021

Tue Oct 13, 2020 9:26 am

jayunited wrote:
jcwr56 wrote:

You need to read the lease, gates are not owned by United or Delta or American they are owned by the CDA and used on a preferential basis that can be adjusted on a yearly basis.


My fault for using the word own, lease is the proper word. But I would love to see the City of Chicago approach either AA or UA and tell them we are taking gates away. I would love to see it. Hell I would love to see the City of Chicago approach DL, B6 or any of the LCCs or ULCCs operating out of ORD and say we are taking gates away to make room for WN.

The City of Chicago finally has an iron clad agreement with all the airlines to help fund the terminal portion of the O'Hare modernization plan. WN at MDW is not contributing a dime to this project. So if the city wants to blow up this entire agreement to make room for WN at terminal 1,2 or 3 have at it. It would be different if WN planned on moving a significant portion of their operation to ORD or if WN was closing MDW down then the city might be inclined to make such a demand. But ORD will complement WN's existing service at MDW, which means the only place WN can go is terminal 5.

In all honesty DL might have something to say about this because DL is slated to move to terminal 5 once the expansion of T5 is done. The city and United will then start building the addition to the C concourse once done terminal 2 will be demolished to make room for the new World Terminal which will be share between UA/Star and AA/OneWorld. Delta was supposed to have terminal 5 with all the nonaligned international carriers. Now Delta would have to share the space with WN, Delta may have something to say about it.

I am not opposed to WN coming to ORD, but if they do they need to pay their fare share of the cost. The city is still trying to pressure both AA and UA into paying for a western access terminal, a terminal the city has said neither airline would be allowed to use. My suggestion is if Chicago wants that western access terminal make WN pay for.


I would educate yourself on Article 5 of the AULA and just see what the airlines gave up on gate usage both for planning and day of.

I agree we won’t see a western terminal, especially not now.
 
freakyrat
Posts: 2214
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 1:04 pm

Re: WN to Launch IAH and ORD service in 2021

Tue Oct 13, 2020 10:40 am

Boiler905 wrote:
YoungDon wrote:
They're taking advantage of perceived weakness by the hub carriers, UA in particular.

Excited to see what they're planning on adding initially out of IAH (even though I prefer to use HOU when possible). I'm thinking BWI, LAX, FLL, MDW, and maybe DEN or PHX to start with?


I think IAH & ORD are more about becoming more relevant to more of the corporate traffic.

My guess on IAH service will be markets driven by the oil industry + some leisure: DAL (5x), SAT (3x), MAF (2x), MSY (2x), DEN (2x), BNA (2x), BWI (1x), LAX (1x), LAS (1x), TUL (1x), MCO (1x), TPA (1x), FLL (1x), ECP (Sat only)

The big question for me is if WN is adding these airports as destinations or more to expand their reach within these respective origin markets of Chicago & Houston? I could go either way on answering it.


How many and what gates are available at IAH? Their old gates on A were being last used by United Express E175 flights.
 
jcwr56
Posts: 1027
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2012 11:36 am

Re: WN to Launch IAH and ORD service in 2021

Tue Oct 13, 2020 10:52 am

dopplerd wrote:
airtran737 wrote:
Assuming that WN will have to go to T5. Terminal 1-3 are filled up.


That's what I would guess. I wonder if they know there is now a T5 jetbridge (M22) that reaches most of the way back to Midway.


950' of walkers heaven out to the end. This is the location of where the permanent M22 will be then heading north 23-27. Walking distance from M27 to center of FIS area is 3200'.
 
WN732
Posts: 953
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2011 12:49 am

Re: WN to Launch IAH and ORD service in 2021

Tue Oct 13, 2020 1:08 pm

wnflyguy wrote:
Well heard from my Chicago peeps United wasted no time today by close of business it sent the CDA a letter of expressed interest about the available gates and office space at MDW.

Get your popcorn ready.

Flyguy


I mean why not? Throw some E175's out there. Competition is good.
 
jayunited
Posts: 3357
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:03 am

Re: WN to Launch IAH and ORD service in 2021

Tue Oct 13, 2020 1:17 pm

jcwr56 wrote:
I would educate yourself on Article 5 of the AULA and just see what the airlines gave up on gate usage both for planning and day of.

I agree we won’t see a western terminal, especially not now.


You mean this agreement here
https://chicago.legistar.com/Legislatio ... s=&Search=

I am familiar with the agreement.

I'm also familiar with the lease that states starting in 2021 access to gates will be allocated based on each airlines departure the prior year, give the City the power to reallocate gates. I'm very much familiar with the agreement. The agreement states O'Hare will have common use gates the city can allow another carrier to use if left idle. However what you are conveniently leaving out or choosing not to focus on are the individual agreements both UA and AA signed with the city which will cover the new World Terminal guarantees once all the construction is done UA will have access 80 gates and AA access to 67 gates at ORD. The city can not reduce that number and even now both airlines have an iron clad guarantee to a certain number of gates. If you believe either AA or UA signed their new lease agreement in 2018 without certain concessions from the city on guarantee usage then perhaps you were not paying attention. Even in March or April of 2018 AA made headlines by threatening not to sign their lease agreement because it was disclosed that UA somehow made a separate agreement with the city that gave them 5 additional gates at the World Terminal. UA's original agreement guaranteed UA 75 gates, in a second and separate agreement UA was able to snag 5 more gates and that pissed AA off. In the end AA relented and signed the agreement for 67 gates. But your assertion that the city of Chicago can come in and just take away a large amount of gates from either AA or UA is not true.

I would need to do further research to see if Delta, Alaska and other airlines a guarantee gate minimum in their lease agreements of it they are all agreed to common use gates at ORD. So I stand by my words although UA may not own terminal 1, but through our lease agreement UA has locked it down terminal 1 and 75% of terminal 2. AA through their lease agreement has locked down 98% of terminal 3. Both of these airlines lease agreement also will cover the World Terminal once it is built, that terminal will only house UA/Star and AA/OneWorld airlines. The low cost carriers and B6 will remain on the L concourse and terminal 5 will house all other international carriers and Delta Airlines.

Whether you agree with it or not whether you like it or not the only place WN can go in 2021 or whenever they come to ORD is terminal 5 because both AA and UA have guaranteed access to X number of gates that prevents any other carrier from taking their gates away.
 
avi8
Posts: 1293
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2011 1:36 am

Re: WN to Launch IAH and ORD service in 2021

Tue Oct 13, 2020 1:21 pm

I would expect something VERY similar if not identical to MIA. Deploy a chunk of capacity to two main focus cities (SWA hubs essentially), then a token daily flight to a couple of other stations. These stations will not be as P2P-oriented as other stations. Thus, most passengers departing ORD and IAH will connect elsewhere to get to their destination, just like MIA.

Expect around 12 daily flights tops, especially in ORD.
avi8
 
CALMSP
Posts: 3627
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 3:18 am

Re: WN to Launch IAH and ORD service in 2021

Tue Oct 13, 2020 1:55 pm

bob75013 wrote:
CALMSP wrote:
bob75013 wrote:

You think it is going to focus on that or --- survival?


I'm confused, are you trying to tell a joke or you really think UA has no resources to open a domestic station?


Wait til the 3Q20 ER's come out in a few days. Compare WN vs UA: Loss, debt , cash burn, available cash -- then you'll have your answer


so you have no real information. Starting a domestic station takes very little resources and effort. Starting a new station has nothing to do with a comparison between WN and UA. I'm guessing you've never been involved with opening a station?
 
Crosswind787
Posts: 40
Joined: Sun Jul 14, 2019 1:50 am

Re: WN to Launch IAH and ORD service in 2021

Tue Oct 13, 2020 1:58 pm

WN732 wrote:
wnflyguy wrote:
Well heard from my Chicago peeps United wasted no time today by close of business it sent the CDA a letter of expressed interest about the available gates and office space at MDW.

Get your popcorn ready.

Flyguy


I mean why not? Throw some E175's out there. Competition is good.


I could see UA E175s operating MDW-TPA/IAH/DEN.

Competition is a good thing and UA has used MDW before so it's definitely a possibility they come back. I think there enough UA frequent fliers that live in the south/southwest suburbs that having a few flights a day to top leisure destinations on E175s is a good option.
 
User avatar
STT757
Posts: 14283
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2000 1:14 am

Re: WN to Launch IAH and ORD service in 2021

Tue Oct 13, 2020 2:03 pm

usflyer msp wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:
I see this as a reaction to the death of change fees on the legacy carriers. WN has realized that the primary incentive for business travelers to choose them over the carriers that fly to more convenient airports is now gone. WN had to come to its customer base instead of customers coming to them.


What’s “more convenient” in a global sense about IAH or ORD?


Not in a global sense, but alot of people drive past their more convenient airport just to fly WN. For example, my Uncle lives in Spring, TX and is self-employed - he would drive right past IAH to HOU just to fly WN because of the no change fees. He is switching to United now.


Is this WN's response to United dropping change fees?

I started flying WN back in 2016 from EWR to Denver and Orlando. When they left I switched to PHL, I live in Central Jersey and PHL just about 25 minutes further than EWR. I started flying WN because of two reasons, bag fees and I got burned once having to change a vacation trip to Disney on UA and ended up spending $1,000 to change three tickets and pay the difference in fares between the bookings.

I have the United Explorer card to get the free bag, but it's only one bag and every time I booked a flight with the card it would always try to charge me for the bags when I checked in. I would have to call over an agent for them to override it.

Now that United got rid of the change fees I will be sending all my business back to them, I am sure there are many others as you mentioned like me and your uncle. I wonder if WN is feeling that effect in Houston and Chicago the most.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
drdisque
Posts: 1437
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2007 9:57 am

Re: WN to Launch IAH and ORD service in 2021

Tue Oct 13, 2020 2:09 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
drdisque wrote:
Route Guesses:

ORD-HOU, ATL, BWI, DAL, LAS, PHX, FLL, MCO, DEN
IAH-STL, DAL, MSY, MCO, BWI, DEN, LAS, MDW, SAN


What's your thinking on listing the shorter, not as mega-station focused flights out of IAH (STL, MSY) but not out of ORD?


MSY is a huge O&D market for Houston and a doupoly between UA and WN so fares are decently high. STL is not as big but still a duopoly. In most of those markets from ORD, they would also have AA. Since there really aren't any sizeable markets that only two carriers fly from Chicago that are also a WN outstation, I focused there just on the biggest O&D markets with a large WN presence.
 
bob75013
Posts: 1049
Joined: Tue Jun 23, 2015 5:05 pm

Re: WN to Launch IAH and ORD service in 2021

Tue Oct 13, 2020 3:20 pm

CALMSP wrote:
bob75013 wrote:
CALMSP wrote:

I'm confused, are you trying to tell a joke or you really think UA has no resources to open a domestic station?


Wait til the 3Q20 ER's come out in a few days. Compare WN vs UA: Loss, debt , cash burn, available cash -- then you'll have your answer


so you have no real information. Starting a domestic station takes very little resources and effort. Starting a new station has nothing to do with a comparison between WN and UA. I'm guessing you've never been involved with opening a station?



It's all about:
1) how to allocate limited (scarce) financial resources
2) who can more easily absorb even more money losing flights

United is at a disadvantage on both counts
 
bob75013
Posts: 1049
Joined: Tue Jun 23, 2015 5:05 pm

Re: WN to Launch IAH and ORD service in 2021

Tue Oct 13, 2020 3:20 pm

deleted
 
CALMSP
Posts: 3627
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 3:18 am

Re: WN to Launch IAH and ORD service in 2021

Tue Oct 13, 2020 3:22 pm

bob75013 wrote:
CALMSP wrote:
bob75013 wrote:

Wait til the 3Q20 ER's come out in a few days. Compare WN vs UA: Loss, debt , cash burn, available cash -- then you'll have your answer


so you have no real information. Starting a domestic station takes very little resources and effort. Starting a new station has nothing to do with a comparison between WN and UA. I'm guessing you've never been involved with opening a station?



It's all about:
1) how to allocate limited (scarce) financial resources
2) who can more easily absorb even more money losing flights

United is at a disadvantage on both counts


none of which would limit UA's ability/willingness to open a new domestic station.
 
jcwr56
Posts: 1027
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2012 11:36 am

Re: WN to Launch IAH and ORD service in 2021

Tue Oct 13, 2020 3:36 pm

jayunited wrote:
jcwr56 wrote:
I would educate yourself on Article 5 of the AULA and just see what the airlines gave up on gate usage both for planning and day of.

I agree we won’t see a western terminal, especially not now.


You mean this agreement here
https://chicago.legistar.com/Legislatio ... s=&Search=

I am familiar with the agreement.

I'm also familiar with the lease that states starting in 2021 access to gates will be allocated based on each airlines departure the prior year, give the City the power to reallocate gates. I'm very much familiar with the agreement. The agreement states O'Hare will have common use gates the city can allow another carrier to use if left idle. However what you are conveniently leaving out or choosing not to focus on are the individual agreements both UA and AA signed with the city which will cover the new World Terminal guarantees once all the construction is done UA will have access 80 gates and AA access to 67 gates at ORD. The city can not reduce that number and even now both airlines have an iron clad guarantee to a certain number of gates. If you believe either AA or UA signed their new lease agreement in 2018 without certain concessions from the city on guarantee usage then perhaps you were not paying attention. Even in March or April of 2018 AA made headlines by threatening not to sign their lease agreement because it was disclosed that UA somehow made a separate agreement with the city that gave them 5 additional gates at the World Terminal. UA's original agreement guaranteed UA 75 gates, in a second and separate agreement UA was able to snag 5 more gates and that pissed AA off. In the end AA relented and signed the agreement for 67 gates. But your assertion that the city of Chicago can come in and just take away a large amount of gates from either AA or UA is not true.

I would need to do further research to see if Delta, Alaska and other airlines a guarantee gate minimum in their lease agreements of it they are all agreed to common use gates at ORD. So I stand by my words although UA may not own terminal 1, but through our lease agreement UA has locked it down terminal 1 and 75% of terminal 2. AA through their lease agreement has locked down 98% of terminal 3. Both of these airlines lease agreement also will cover the World Terminal once it is built, that terminal will only house UA/Star and AA/OneWorld airlines. The low cost carriers and B6 will remain on the L concourse and terminal 5 will house all other international carriers and Delta Airlines.

Whether you agree with it or not whether you like it or not the only place WN can go in 2021 or whenever they come to ORD is terminal 5 because both AA and UA have guaranteed access to X number of gates that prevents any other carrier from taking their gates away.


I never said they will go to T1, T2 or T3 although any one of the preferential carries could voluntarily accommodate them. If the process allows and they couldn't be accommodated on common use, a forced accommodation is the next option. I just wanted to point out there's specific language that allows the city to do certain things. Gates at ORD will be re-allocated on a preferential and common use basis yearly. Although the first reallocation has yet to take place.
 
bob75013
Posts: 1049
Joined: Tue Jun 23, 2015 5:05 pm

Re: WN to Launch IAH and ORD service in 2021

Tue Oct 13, 2020 3:48 pm

CALMSP wrote:
bob75013 wrote:
CALMSP wrote:

so you have no real information. Starting a domestic station takes very little resources and effort. Starting a new station has nothing to do with a comparison between WN and UA. I'm guessing you've never been involved with opening a station?



It's all about:
1) how to allocate limited (scarce) financial resources
2) who can more easily absorb even more money losing flights

United is at a disadvantage on both counts


none of which would limit UA's ability/willingness to open a new domestic station.


Only to the extent that doing so might hasten a demise to yet another bankruptcy.
 
CALMSP
Posts: 3627
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 3:18 am

Re: WN to Launch IAH and ORD service in 2021

Tue Oct 13, 2020 3:52 pm

bob75013 wrote:
CALMSP wrote:
bob75013 wrote:


It's all about:
1) how to allocate limited (scarce) financial resources
2) who can more easily absorb even more money losing flights

United is at a disadvantage on both counts


none of which would limit UA's ability/willingness to open a new domestic station.


Only to the extent that doing so might hasten a demise to yet another bankruptcy.


I'm sorry, but opening a new domestic station will have ZERO impact on any notion of a bankruptcy.
 
elbandgeek
Posts: 462
Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2008 8:26 pm

Re: WN to Launch IAH and ORD service in 2021

Tue Oct 13, 2020 4:42 pm

bob75013 wrote:
Flflyer83 wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:
I see this as a reaction to the death of change fees on the legacy carriers. WN has realized that the primary incentive for business travelers to choose them over the carriers that fly to more convenient airports is now gone. WN had to come to its customer base instead of customers coming to them.


HOU is closer to downtown Houston, the Texas Medical Center, Greenway Plaza, and the Galleria area of Houston than IAH is, so I’m not sure how IAH is more convenient, unless the traveler is going to far north Houston or The Woodlands.

ORD is no closer to downtown Chicago than MDW is. ORD does have a small business hub nearby, but downtown Chicago is, by far, the business destination in Chicago.

Do you know much about either city to make the claim that IAH and ORD are more convenient airports for the respective cities?


So, tell us where more of the business flying public in Chicago resides - closer to ORD or MDW? (hint: it ain't MDW)


Oak Brook? Hinsdale? Bolingbrook?

Say what you will about the economics of these flights but we need to stop with this tired narrative about "the wealth is up north" and the idea that only people from Schaumburg fly on business. It goes hand in hand with every awful stereotype associated with The Southside™ and affluent northsiders/suburbanites are always telling on themselves when they play that card.
 
775899
Posts: 1033
Joined: Sat Jul 27, 2019 8:03 pm

Re: WN to Launch IAH and ORD service in 2021

Tue Oct 13, 2020 4:44 pm

elbandgeek wrote:
bob75013 wrote:
Flflyer83 wrote:

HOU is closer to downtown Houston, the Texas Medical Center, Greenway Plaza, and the Galleria area of Houston than IAH is, so I’m not sure how IAH is more convenient, unless the traveler is going to far north Houston or The Woodlands.

ORD is no closer to downtown Chicago than MDW is. ORD does have a small business hub nearby, but downtown Chicago is, by far, the business destination in Chicago.

Do you know much about either city to make the claim that IAH and ORD are more convenient airports for the respective cities?


So, tell us where more of the business flying public in Chicago resides - closer to ORD or MDW? (hint: it ain't MDW)


Oak Brook? Hinsdale? Bolingbrook?

Say what you will about the economics of these flights but we need to stop with this tired narrative about "the wealth is up north" and the idea that only people from Schaumburg fly on business. It goes hand in hand with every awful stereotype associated with The Southside™ and affluent northsiders/suburbanites are always telling on themselves when they play that card.


I was going to say, the Naperville/Downers Grove/Oak Brook areas aren't too shabby and both can be accessed well by MDW.

Nevertheless, it is important WN starts serving ORD as well.
 
elbandgeek
Posts: 462
Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2008 8:26 pm

Re: WN to Launch IAH and ORD service in 2021

Tue Oct 13, 2020 5:08 pm

BNAMealer wrote:
elbandgeek wrote:
bob75013 wrote:

So, tell us where more of the business flying public in Chicago resides - closer to ORD or MDW? (hint: it ain't MDW)


Oak Brook? Hinsdale? Bolingbrook?

Say what you will about the economics of these flights but we need to stop with this tired narrative about "the wealth is up north" and the idea that only people from Schaumburg fly on business. It goes hand in hand with every awful stereotype associated with The Southside™ and affluent northsiders/suburbanites are always telling on themselves when they play that card.


I was going to say, the Naperville/Downers Grove/Oak Brook areas aren't too shabby and both can be accessed well by MDW.

Nevertheless, it is important WN starts serving ORD as well.


It's definitely a good thing, and I'd love to see all 3 hubs carriers add some complementary service to their respective other sides of town. The metro is too spread out to try and say one airport is inherently better for a certain type of traveler and the argument always comes back to "rich north, poor south" which aside from not even being accurate is just flat out offensive.
 
Silver1SWA
Posts: 4747
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2004 6:11 pm

Re: WN to Launch IAH and ORD service in 2021

Tue Oct 13, 2020 5:08 pm

737MAX7 wrote:
swacle wrote:
737MAX7 wrote:
How is opening new stations that will most likely be contracted out helping me?

ORD won't be contract. IAH won't be contract. MIA is not contract. You eant to see what WN is going to do with ORD, MIA, and IAH? Look at the reentry into SFO 10 years ago.

As a former CLE ramper with you I whole heartedly disagree. If they stay at 12 flights and under I will believe it will be contract.


This is a unique time where it makes sense to pull from the current workforce.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
Flflyer83
Posts: 126
Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2020 4:40 pm

Re: WN to Launch IAH and ORD service in 2021

Tue Oct 13, 2020 5:13 pm

737MAX7 wrote:
swacle wrote:
737MAX7 wrote:
How is opening new stations that will most likely be contracted out helping me?

ORD won't be contract. IAH won't be contract. MIA is not contract. You eant to see what WN is going to do with ORD, MIA, and IAH? Look at the reentry into SFO 10 years ago.

As a former CLE ramper with you I whole heartedly disagree. If they stay at 12 flights and under I will believe it will be contract.


These will not be contract. They’ll be WN employees and likely employees from MDW, HOU, and FLL depending on the bidding of the positions.
 
jplatts
Posts: 4254
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:42 pm

Re: WN to Launch IAH and ORD service in 2021

Tue Oct 13, 2020 5:43 pm

Top 10 routes out of MDW by total number of passengers on WN in 2019: MDW-DEN/LAS/MCO/PHX/DAL/MCI/LAX/BWI/HOU/BNA
Top 10 routes out of HOU by total number of passengers on WN in 2019: HOU-DAL/MSY/DEN/MDW/LAS/ATL/LAX/PHX/MCO/SAT

Top 10 routes out of MDW by PDEW's on WN in Q3 2019: MDW-MCO/DEN/LAS/LAX/BWI/DAL/HOU/PHX/LGA/ATL
Top 10 routes out of HOU by PDEW's on WN in Q3 2019: MDW-DAL/DEN/MDW/LAX/LAS/MSY/ATL/BWI/LGA/MCO
 
User avatar
9lflyguy
Posts: 188
Joined: Tue Jan 05, 2010 12:49 am

Re: WN to Launch IAH and ORD service in 2021

Tue Oct 13, 2020 6:36 pm

Good for WN. Glad to see the expansion continue. I was excited when they announced additional service out of LIT to ATL and DEN. Hopefully soon they fill some of the gaps in their network to Montana and Alaska.

I honestly think the major 3 are in trouble and WN knows this. So in typical Southwest fashion, hit them while they're down. Good for them!
Flown on: 319, 320, 321, 712, 722, 732, 733, 734, 735, 737, 738, 739, 752, 753, 763, 772, CR2, CR7, CR9, DHA, D8B, D8C, D95, E140, E145, E170, E175, E190, M82, M88, M90, S340
 
TTailedTiger
Posts: 2953
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 am

Re: WN to Launch IAH and ORD service in 2021

Tue Oct 13, 2020 6:38 pm

bob75013 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
bob75013 wrote:


There are no passenger facilities at FTW, AFW or TKI


I didn't think so. So why in the world do some people here think WN would have any interest in serving those airports?


1) DAL is limited to 20 gates

2) WN is limited to 18 thru 2024

3) If the 20 gate limit is not lifted at DAL, WN will wnt to grow somewhere.

4) WN financed the half billion dollar DAL renovation. What makes you think it can't do it again?

5) No way in hell that WN goes to DFW and subsidizes improvements that only benefit American.


Well do you think WN might try a setup like this? Let DAL service O/D flights and then build a facility at AFW that would only handle connecting traffic. That would keep costs low as you wouldn't need to build TSA checkpoints except for crew members, passenger/guest parking facilities, rental car facilities, baggage claim, or ticket counters. I think it's an interesting concept that could work.
 
User avatar
TWA772LR
Posts: 7578
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2011 6:12 am

Re: WN to Launch IAH and ORD service in 2021

Tue Oct 13, 2020 6:51 pm

Flflyer83 wrote:
737MAX7 wrote:
swacle wrote:
ORD won't be contract. IAH won't be contract. MIA is not contract. You eant to see what WN is going to do with ORD, MIA, and IAH? Look at the reentry into SFO 10 years ago.

As a former CLE ramper with you I whole heartedly disagree. If they stay at 12 flights and under I will believe it will be contract.


These will not be contract. They’ll be WN employees and likely employees from MDW, HOU, and FLL depending on the bidding of the positions.

Employees from existing stations aren't going to bid on positions at the new stations. They will open the floor to full on transfers and then post to the street to fill where needed.
When wasn't America great?


The thoughts and opinions shared under this username are mine and are not influenced by my employer.
 
Jshank83
Posts: 4015
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: WN to Launch IAH and ORD service in 2021

Tue Oct 13, 2020 6:53 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
bob75013 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

I didn't think so. So why in the world do some people here think WN would have any interest in serving those airports?


1) DAL is limited to 20 gates

2) WN is limited to 18 thru 2024

3) If the 20 gate limit is not lifted at DAL, WN will wnt to grow somewhere.

4) WN financed the half billion dollar DAL renovation. What makes you think it can't do it again?

5) No way in hell that WN goes to DFW and subsidizes improvements that only benefit American.


Well do you think WN might try a setup like this? Let DAL service O/D flights and then build a facility at AFW that would only handle connecting traffic. That would keep costs low as you wouldn't need to build TSA checkpoints except for crew members, passenger/guest parking facilities, rental car facilities, baggage claim, or ticket counters. I think it's an interesting concept that could work.


I don't think this works at all. If you are literally only going to do connects then why wouldn't you just connect them thru another station that also offers some O&D. If it is only connects there is no reason it needs to be in Dallas or at an airport with no passengers terminals when plenty of existing airports have gates a plenty ready to go.
 
TTailedTiger
Posts: 2953
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 am

Re: WN to Launch IAH and ORD service in 2021

Tue Oct 13, 2020 6:56 pm

Jshank83 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
bob75013 wrote:

1) DAL is limited to 20 gates

2) WN is limited to 18 thru 2024

3) If the 20 gate limit is not lifted at DAL, WN will wnt to grow somewhere.

4) WN financed the half billion dollar DAL renovation. What makes you think it can't do it again?

5) No way in hell that WN goes to DFW and subsidizes improvements that only benefit American.


Well do you think WN might try a setup like this? Let DAL service O/D flights and then build a facility at AFW that would only handle connecting traffic. That would keep costs low as you wouldn't need to build TSA checkpoints except for crew members, passenger/guest parking facilities, rental car facilities, baggage claim, or ticket counters. I think it's an interesting concept that could work.


I don't think this works at all. If you are literally only going to do connects then why wouldn't you just connect them thru another station that also offers some O&D.


I believe WN is maxed out at pretty much all of their stations. They already run the highest gate utilization of any airline. Building such a connecting-centric facility at AFW would also discourage any competitors from coming in since the terminal wouldn't be designed for O/D traffic.
 
Jshank83
Posts: 4015
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm

Re: WN to Launch IAH and ORD service in 2021

Tue Oct 13, 2020 7:01 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

Well do you think WN might try a setup like this? Let DAL service O/D flights and then build a facility at AFW that would only handle connecting traffic. That would keep costs low as you wouldn't need to build TSA checkpoints except for crew members, passenger/guest parking facilities, rental car facilities, baggage claim, or ticket counters. I think it's an interesting concept that could work.


I don't think this works at all. If you are literally only going to do connects then why wouldn't you just connect them thru another station that also offers some O&D.


I believe WN is maxed out at pretty much all of their stations. They already run the highest gate utilization of any airline. Building such a connecting-centric facility at AFW would also discourage any competitors from coming in since the terminal wouldn't be designed for O/D traffic.


STL has a bunch of gates left open. DEN is about ready to get a bunch more. I assume any other closed down hub has plenty of gates. MEM, PIT, CLE, CVG, etc. ABQ used to have more WN flights so you can probaby add it to the list. Any of those you already have traffic going thru so just open more gates that are already there.
 
775899
Posts: 1033
Joined: Sat Jul 27, 2019 8:03 pm

Re: WN to Launch IAH and ORD service in 2021

Tue Oct 13, 2020 7:17 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
Jshank83 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

Well do you think WN might try a setup like this? Let DAL service O/D flights and then build a facility at AFW that would only handle connecting traffic. That would keep costs low as you wouldn't need to build TSA checkpoints except for crew members, passenger/guest parking facilities, rental car facilities, baggage claim, or ticket counters. I think it's an interesting concept that could work.


I don't think this works at all. If you are literally only going to do connects then why wouldn't you just connect them thru another station that also offers some O&D.


I believe WN is maxed out at pretty much all of their stations. They already run the highest gate utilization of any airline. Building such a connecting-centric facility at AFW would also discourage any competitors from coming in since the terminal wouldn't be designed for O/D traffic.


I highly doubt AFW or McKinney will be seeing WN flights anytime soon. The most likely scenario is WN starts some operations at DFW come 2025.
 
Silver1SWA
Posts: 4747
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2004 6:11 pm

Re: WN to Launch IAH and ORD service in 2021

Tue Oct 13, 2020 7:24 pm

TWA772LR wrote:
Flflyer83 wrote:
737MAX7 wrote:
As a former CLE ramper with you I whole heartedly disagree. If they stay at 12 flights and under I will believe it will be contract.


These will not be contract. They’ll be WN employees and likely employees from MDW, HOU, and FLL depending on the bidding of the positions.

Employees from existing stations aren't going to bid on positions at the new stations. They will open the floor to full on transfers and then post to the street to fill where needed.


Correct. Station opening bids will go out system wide, not just nearby stations.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
dfwjim1
Posts: 2529
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2011 8:46 pm

Re: WN to Launch IAH and ORD service in 2021

Tue Oct 13, 2020 7:27 pm

enilria wrote:
dolphinflyer wrote:
Andrew Waterson just announced at the Boyd Conference that Southwest will launch service to IAH and ORD during the first half of 2021. Details and schedules to be announced within the next few weeks.

Fits with the MIA move. Transition to being a full legacy.


Seems like the next big step for WN is to add red eyes to their schedule.
 
User avatar
TWA772LR
Posts: 7578
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2011 6:12 am

Re: WN to Launch IAH and ORD service in 2021

Tue Oct 13, 2020 7:36 pm

Silver1SWA wrote:
TWA772LR wrote:
Flflyer83 wrote:

These will not be contract. They’ll be WN employees and likely employees from MDW, HOU, and FLL depending on the bidding of the positions.

Employees from existing stations aren't going to bid on positions at the new stations. They will open the floor to full on transfers and then post to the street to fill where needed.


Correct. Station opening bids will go out system wide, not just nearby stations.

If I were still at SWA I'd transfer in a heartbeat.
When wasn't America great?


The thoughts and opinions shared under this username are mine and are not influenced by my employer.
 
hohd
Posts: 990
Joined: Sat May 17, 2008 1:03 am

Re: WN to Launch IAH and ORD service in 2021

Tue Oct 13, 2020 7:57 pm

COflyerBOS wrote:
While HOU is closer as the crow flies to downtown, NASA, Bay Area, UH/Rice/TSU, TMC, inner loop, and Uptown it really has just one major artery I-45 nearby. IAH has 45, 59, Sam Houston tollway, and Hardy Toll Road. I lived near Rice and getting to IAH was usually easier than HOU despite the longer distance.

Additionally, the Energy Corridor/Westchase area out in West Houston on I-10/Beltway have much easier access to IAH as do the wealthy suburbs like The Woodlands, Cypress, Katy, Cinco Ranch, etc...


Not disagreeing with you that IAH has better access to more wealthier suburbs and inner city, but Hobby also has Beltway 8, and connects to Sugar Land/Far SW Houston and Pearland. Either way no affect on me, still prefer UA for its international flights and a frequent flyer program with international flight possibilities.
 
bob75013
Posts: 1049
Joined: Tue Jun 23, 2015 5:05 pm

Re: WN to Launch IAH and ORD service in 2021

Tue Oct 13, 2020 8:00 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
bob75013 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

I didn't think so. So why in the world do some people here think WN would have any interest in serving those airports?


1) DAL is limited to 20 gates

2) WN is limited to 18 thru 2024

3) If the 20 gate limit is not lifted at DAL, WN will wnt to grow somewhere.

4) WN financed the half billion dollar DAL renovation. What makes you think it can't do it again?

5) No way in hell that WN goes to DFW and subsidizes improvements that only benefit American.


Well do you think WN might try a setup like this? Let DAL service O/D flights and then build a facility at AFW that would only handle connecting traffic. That would keep costs low as you wouldn't need to build TSA checkpoints except for crew members, passenger/guest parking facilities, rental car facilities, baggage claim, or ticket counters. I think it's an interesting concept that could work.


Not likely.

Name any other airport where that concept works
 
Flflyer83
Posts: 126
Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2020 4:40 pm

Re: WN to Launch IAH and ORD service in 2021

Tue Oct 13, 2020 8:19 pm

TWA772LR wrote:
Flflyer83 wrote:
737MAX7 wrote:
As a former CLE ramper with you I whole heartedly disagree. If they stay at 12 flights and under I will believe it will be contract.


These will not be contract. They’ll be WN employees and likely employees from MDW, HOU, and FLL depending on the bidding of the positions.

Employees from existing stations aren't going to bid on positions at the new stations. They will open the floor to full on transfers and then post to the street to fill where needed.


So, the transfer isn’t a bid? Many would be surprised to hear they aren’t bidding for a transfer. There will not be a post to the street to fill the need unless people choose to quit instead of being forced to move. Some employees will be given the opportunity to move or they will be let go. These stations are part of the mitigation efforts to prevent furloughs.
 
AmericanAir88
Posts: 223
Joined: Wed May 27, 2020 8:59 pm

Re: WN to Launch IAH and ORD service in 2021

Tue Oct 13, 2020 8:28 pm

WN is a chessboard.

AA empire at CLT? WN adds flights
AA/UA duo at ORD? WN adds flights despite owning like 95% of MDW
UA at IAH? WN adds flights despite owning like 95% of DAL and a big chunk of HOU
UA and F9 big at DEN? WN adds flights
AA at MIA? WN throws some flights in there
Heavy competition and several legacies at Los Angeles airports? WN adds flights at LAX, ONT, BUR, and LGB

Southwest is a big strategy maker. I really applaud their bravery. Whats next? DFW or EWR?

Honestly, they need to go back to EWR or build up at LGA. NYC is a market they are missing.
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