N408BN wrote:

BNAMealer wrote:

What the heck? Thrilled about ORD, but why the sudden reversal of longstanding practices? Where are they even going to go in ORD?

I wonder if they sense blood with AA and are trying to take advantage?

I'm all for anything that "takes advantage" of AAmerican!!!

I’d rather someone fix them so they can become competitive again.

reltney wrote:

SWA was bumped out of IAH before due to competition and my guess, it will happen again... Go ahead nay sayers and armchair CEOs , have at it. History is usually repeated.

It won't be a massive hub to go toe to toe with UA, they have HOU for that. They are trying to capture some market share to some O/D destinations. To compare WN and CO of old is a stretch. But we shall see.

BNAMealer wrote:

What the heck? Thrilled about ORD, but why the sudden reversal of longstanding practices? Where are they even going to go in ORD?

I wonder if they sense blood with AA and are trying to take advantage?

AA has had a hub there for many years. unless they find some way to mismanage it to a great extent? Then WN will just be another carrier in the Mix. and? there's room for them. It just ain't that serious..

[q the samuote="reltney"]SWA was bumped out of IAH before due to competition and my guess, it will happen again... Go ahead nay sayers and armchair CEOs , have at it. History is usually repeated.[/quote]
As I recall? SWA chose to Leave IAH The same way they left SFO a couple of times. They weren't ready. So Now it appears they are.. so again? We shall SEE/

strfyr51 wrote:

BNAMealer wrote:

What the heck? Thrilled about ORD, but why the sudden reversal of longstanding practices? Where are they even going to go in ORD?

I wonder if they sense blood with AA and are trying to take advantage?

AA has had a hub there for many years. unless they find some way to mismanage it to a great extent? Then WN will just be another carrier in the Mix. and? there's room for them. It just ain't that serious..

Yes, but AA is in a very precarious situation at the moment, and the gate lease at ORD is going to require a certain amount of usage in order to maintain gates. WN likely will only offer token service to start, but make no mistake, AA is the biggest loser here.

BNAMealer wrote:

Yes, but AA is in a very precarious situation at the moment, and the gate lease at ORD is going to require a certain amount of usage in order to maintain gates. WN likely will only offer token service to start, but make no mistake, AA is the biggest loser here.

I wonder if ORD could become WN's major Chicago connection airport rather than MDW? ORD could allow every variant if the 737 to operate, while MDW would have problems with any 737 larger than a 737-8. If AA were eliminated or much reduced at ORD, WN could make ORD another DEN in their system.

What terminal would WN use at IAH? Terminal A is awfully crowded with all the domestic non-UA flights. Eventually the north side of terminals A and B will be redeveloped, but that will have to happen after C, D, and E are expanded.

flyingclrs727 wrote:

BNAMealer wrote:

Yes, but AA is in a very precarious situation at the moment, and the gate lease at ORD is going to require a certain amount of usage in order to maintain gates. WN likely will only offer token service to start, but make no mistake, AA is the biggest loser here.

I wonder if ORD could become WN's major Chicago connection airport rather than MDW? ORD could allow every variant if the 737 to operate, while MDW would have problems with any 737 larger than a 737-8. If AA were eliminated or much reduced at ORD, WN could make ORD another DEN in their system.

AA is not so precarious that they are about to de-hub ORD. Unless they do then WN are going to struggle to find more than 2 gates in the same concourse.

Even if AA were to draw down ORD somewhat, they would rather do a deal with United than Southwest. It's better the devil you know. United will be very happy to keep Southwest constrained at ORD.

(Yes I realise that United are suffering as well, but they can tinker with their banks and traffic flows to "grow" ORD to the point of having minimum gate utilization over as many gates as possible, if that kept a competitor from growing. It's not like anyone is beating down the door to get into concourse C/D at IAD. But precisely for this reason I think AA will do the same. Traffic flows over CLT or DFW might make more money, but no-one is seriously challenging them there, and in the long run they are better off holding on to what they have rather than letting WN through the door. Therefore I do think they will do what it takes to keep the minimum utilization for every gate they have.)

I probably do not expect WN to add nonstop service out of ORD to destinations such as ALB, ABQ, BUF, CVG, CLE, DTW, GRR, BDL, SDF, ORF, OMA, PDX, PVD, SLC, or SEA as most of the passengers on WN's MDW-ALB/ABQ/BUF/CVG/CLE/DTW/GRR/BDL/SDF/ORF/OMA/PDX/PVD/SLC/SEA nonstop flights were connecting to other destinations through MDW in 2019.

On the other hand, I could see WN possibly adding ORD-LGA nonstop service if other WN nonstop routes out of ORD are successful with
(a) WN having mostly O&D traffic on its MDW-LGA nonstop flights,
(b) MDW having a significant amount of demand to NYC on WN prior to the COVID-19 pandemic, and
(c) MDW-LGA O&D being predominately Chicago point-of-sale.

Cubsrule wrote:

What’s “more convenient” in a global sense about IAH or ORD?

IAH is over 20 miles away from HOU and on the other side of downtown. Back when IAH was built, it was way north of everything in Houston. Now there is the Woodlands with lots of affluent residents living north of IAH. The Houston area has lots more people living there than there were in the 70's. If WN can make money flying to lots of airports press throughout the Los Angeles and San Francisco metro areas, I can't see why they can't serve a second airport in the fourth largest city in the US.

jplatts wrote:

I probably do not expect WN to add nonstop service out of ORD to destinations such as ALB, ABQ, BUF, CVG, CLE, DTW, GRR, BDL, SDF, ORF, OMA, PDX, PVD, SLC, or SEA as most of the passengers on WN's MDW-ALB/ABQ/BUF/CVG/CLE/DTW/GRR/BDL/SDF/ORF/OMA/PDX/PVD/SLC/SEA nonstop flights were connecting to other destinations through MDW in 2019.

On the other hand, I could see WN possibly adding ORD-LGA nonstop service if other WN nonstop routes out of ORD are successful with
(a) WN having mostly O&D traffic on its MDW-LGA nonstop flights,
(b) MDW having a significant amount of demand to NYC on WN prior to the COVID-19 pandemic, and
(c) MDW-LGA O&D being predominately Chicago point-of-sale.

But one issue won't go away with MDW is the constrained runways. If WN ever decides to get a 737-9 or 737-10, there's no way they could operate out of MDW. Possibly a 737-9 with 737-10 landing gear might be able to take off from MDW with 200 passengers, but if WN needs to start ordering aircraft larger than the 737-8, it could be a problem.

flyingclrs727 wrote:

Cubsrule wrote:

What’s “more convenient” in a global sense about IAH or ORD?

IAH is over 20 miles away from HOU and on the other side of downtown. Back when IAH was built, it was way north of everything in Houston. Now there is the Woodlands with lots of affluent residents living north of IAH. The Houston area has lots more people living there than there were in the 70's. If WN can make money flying to lots of airports press throughout the Los Angeles and San Francisco metro areas, I can't see why they can't serve a second airport in the fourth largest city in the US.

Im not saying they cant make money at IAH. Im sure they can.

But its not a good comparison to the Bay or Southern California. Those places have many times the domestic O&D that the Houston area does.

flyingclrs727 wrote:

jplatts wrote:

I probably do not expect WN to add nonstop service out of ORD to destinations such as ALB, ABQ, BUF, CVG, CLE, DTW, GRR, BDL, SDF, ORF, OMA, PDX, PVD, SLC, or SEA as most of the passengers on WN's MDW-ALB/ABQ/BUF/CVG/CLE/DTW/GRR/BDL/SDF/ORF/OMA/PDX/PVD/SLC/SEA nonstop flights were connecting to other destinations through MDW in 2019.

On the other hand, I could see WN possibly adding ORD-LGA nonstop service if other WN nonstop routes out of ORD are successful with
(a) WN having mostly O&D traffic on its MDW-LGA nonstop flights,
(b) MDW having a significant amount of demand to NYC on WN prior to the COVID-19 pandemic, and
(c) MDW-LGA O&D being predominately Chicago point-of-sale.

But one issue won't go away with MDW is the constrained runways. If WN ever decides to get a 737-9 or 737-10, there's no way they could operate out of MDW. Possibly a 737-9 with 737-10 landing gear might be able to take off from MDW with 200 passengers, but if WN needs to start ordering aircraft larger than the 737-8, it could be a problem.

That's about the lowest thing on their list of things to be concerned about. MDW can handle 753s and the longest routes WN currently flies are only around 2000nm, nowhere near max range. *If* they wanted bigger planes, the number of potential routes that would need them to takeoff fully loaded is so small they'd probably just use an 8 on it anyway.

elbandgeek wrote:

flyingclrs727 wrote:

jplatts wrote:

I probably do not expect WN to add nonstop service out of ORD to destinations such as ALB, ABQ, BUF, CVG, CLE, DTW, GRR, BDL, SDF, ORF, OMA, PDX, PVD, SLC, or SEA as most of the passengers on WN's MDW-ALB/ABQ/BUF/CVG/CLE/DTW/GRR/BDL/SDF/ORF/OMA/PDX/PVD/SLC/SEA nonstop flights were connecting to other destinations through MDW in 2019.

On the other hand, I could see WN possibly adding ORD-LGA nonstop service if other WN nonstop routes out of ORD are successful with
(a) WN having mostly O&D traffic on its MDW-LGA nonstop flights,
(b) MDW having a significant amount of demand to NYC on WN prior to the COVID-19 pandemic, and
(c) MDW-LGA O&D being predominately Chicago point-of-sale.

But one issue won't go away with MDW is the constrained runways. If WN ever decides to get a 737-9 or 737-10, there's no way they could operate out of MDW. Possibly a 737-9 with 737-10 landing gear might be able to take off from MDW with 200 passengers, but if WN needs to start ordering aircraft larger than the 737-8, it could be a problem.

That's about the lowest thing on their list of things to be concerned about. MDW can handle 753s and the longest routes WN currently flies are only around 2000nm, nowhere near max range. *If* they wanted bigger planes, the number of potential routes that would need them to takeoff fully loaded is so small they'd probably just use an 8 on it anyway.

Not sure what that has to do with what he said. WN doesn’t fly 753’s, they do fly 737’s though and the short runways are a huge issue in flying any larger variant of the 737 from MDW. ORD allows WN to fly larger 737’s (MAX-9/-10) to anywhere the plane’s range will allow without restriction.

SWADawg wrote:

elbandgeek wrote:

flyingclrs727 wrote:

But one issue won't go away with MDW is the constrained runways. If WN ever decides to get a 737-9 or 737-10, there's no way they could operate out of MDW. Possibly a 737-9 with 737-10 landing gear might be able to take off from MDW with 200 passengers, but if WN needs to start ordering aircraft larger than the 737-8, it could be a problem.

That's about the lowest thing on their list of things to be concerned about. MDW can handle 753s and the longest routes WN currently flies are only around 2000nm, nowhere near max range. *If* they wanted bigger planes, the number of potential routes that would need them to takeoff fully loaded is so small they'd probably just use an 8 on it anyway.

Not sure what that has to do with what he said. WN doesn’t fly 753’s, they do fly 737’s though and the short runways are a huge issue in flying any larger variant of the 737 from MDW. ORD allows WN to fly larger 737’s (MAX-9/-10) to anywhere the plane’s range will allow without restriction.

My point is the runway issue is overblown. Tell me a route where WN would by flying maximum range from MDW? It's in the middle of the country.

UA will absolutely feel this is a direct jab at them, and not two random large airports. They will find a way to react.

I think this is a bit of "blah" move. We are in a recession. It makes sense to aggregate traffic in a single airport to build volume and create an efficient schedule. WN is going in the opposite direction. This is unlikely to be a financial success for a very long time. The question is whether Southwest will be willing to stick to it long enough.

LAXdude1023 wrote:

Im not saying they cant make money at IAH. Im sure they can.

But its not a good comparison to the Bay or Southern California. Those places have many times the domestic O&D that the Houston area does.

"[M]any times the domestic O&D?" Not quite. To DEN, Southern California O&D is 2.4 times as large as Houston. Bay Area O&D to DEN is 1.8 times as large. But we're also talking about 4 or 5 airports in SoCal and 3 in the Bay Area. To Chicago, L.A. is 2.6 times as large while S.F is 1.8 times as large. And the Houston airports have something which the California airports don't -- good geography for connections.

Houston is easily large enough to support two good-sized airports, as it has done for fifty years.

flyingclrs727 wrote:

What terminal would WN use at IAH? Terminal A is awfully crowded with all the domestic non-UA flights. Eventually the north side of terminals A and B will be redeveloped, but that will have to happen after C, D, and E are expanded.

They'd definitely go to A, which is nowhere near as busy as you make it out to be, and wasn't even pre-Covid. A-North was rebuilt 20 or so years ago. There's a fair bit of room to extend A-North to the west (where the A-3 walkway gates are currently) and A-South to the south -- that's why the gate numbers skip in both concourses. If memory serves, WN used A7 before they left IAH.

And as old as the "flight stations" on the north side of B are, they still beat the south side of B. Nothing drives home the fact that United Express is a second-class experience more than walking 500 feet from a giant holdroom to board the aircraft from the ramp when it's 95 degrees out with a dew point near 80.

flyingclrs727 wrote:

But one issue won't go away with MDW is the constrained runways. If WN ever decides to get a 737-9 or 737-10, there's no way they could operate out of MDW. Possibly a 737-9 with 737-10 landing gear might be able to take off from MDW with 200 passengers, but if WN needs to start ordering aircraft larger than the 737-8, it could be a problem.

Last year WN was operating ~3,500 flights a day that didn't touch MDW. They could have a fleet of 500 MAX 10s and not worry about MDW runways - or SNA's, or BUR's.

I don't doubt that WN will, eventually, have some -9s or -10s.

YoungDon wrote:

Imo, this is usually what people mean when they say IAH is more "convenient" because honestly HOU is the same distance or closer to most of the business and wealth as IAH is. From the westside (say I-10 and the Beltway), taking the Beltway south is normally actually easier than taking it north in terms of traffic and hassle. Some people are just uncomfortable with the local neighborhood and don't use HOU as a result. I suspect the same is true of MDW vis a vis ORD.

According to Google Maps:

The nearest freeway to MDW is I-55/Stevenson Expressway, which is approximately two miles north of MDW via Cicero Ave. (Exit 286).

The nearest freeway to HOU is actually I-45/Gulf Freeway, which is approximately two miles northeast of HOU via the Winkler Dr./Monroe Blvd. (Exit 38) from the north or two miles east of the Airport Blvd. exit (Exit 36) from the south. (FWIW, South Beltway 8/Sam Houston Tollway is four miles to the south-southwest of HOU via Telephone Rd. and about 3.5 miles north of South Loop 610 via Reveille/Telephone Rd.).

That said, from my past experience flying through MDW and having some long layovers there, the immediate area surrounding MDW isn't as bad compared to the rest of the South Side of Chicago or the rest of the city as a whole. I can't speak to HOU and that surrounding area as authoritative as MDW (I've only been to Houston once), but from my one time passing through the area near HOU, I don't recall noticing anything horrible about the neighborhood - I'll defer to the Houstonians on this one.

SWADawg wrote:

elbandgeek wrote:

flyingclrs727 wrote:

But one issue won't go away with MDW is the constrained runways. If WN ever decides to get a 737-9 or 737-10, there's no way they could operate out of MDW. Possibly a 737-9 with 737-10 landing gear might be able to take off from MDW with 200 passengers, but if WN needs to start ordering aircraft larger than the 737-8, it could be a problem.

That's about the lowest thing on their list of things to be concerned about. MDW can handle 753s and the longest routes WN currently flies are only around 2000nm, nowhere near max range. *If* they wanted bigger planes, the number of potential routes that would need them to takeoff fully loaded is so small they'd probably just use an 8 on it anyway.

Not sure what that has to do with what he said. WN doesn’t fly 753’s, they do fly 737’s though and the short runways are a huge issue in flying any larger variant of the 737 from MDW. ORD allows WN to fly larger 737’s (MAX-9/-10) to anywhere the plane’s range will allow without restriction.

Correct about WN not flying 753s; DL, however, regularly flies 752s/753s into MDW for sports charters (especially NBA charters, since they fly all but three NBA teams). It's not unusual to see a DL 757 parked at one of the C gates for a visiting team's return flight following a Bulls/Blackhawks/White Sox game. I wouldn't be shocked if UA charters involving some of their MLB teams who are playing at Comiskey (or whatever it's called this week) Park to face the White Sox are 739s.

ctrabs0114 wrote:

YoungDon wrote:

Imo, this is usually what people mean when they say IAH is more "convenient" because honestly HOU is the same distance or closer to most of the business and wealth as IAH is. From the westside (say I-10 and the Beltway), taking the Beltway south is normally actually easier than taking it north in terms of traffic and hassle. Some people are just uncomfortable with the local neighborhood and don't use HOU as a result. I suspect the same is true of MDW vis a vis ORD.

According to Google Maps:

The nearest freeway to MDW is I-55/Stevenson Expressway, which is approximately two miles north of MDW via Cicero Ave. (Exit 286).

The nearest freeway to HOU is actually I-45/Gulf Freeway, which is approximately two miles northeast of HOU via the Winkler Dr./Monroe Blvd. (Exit 38) from the north or two miles east of the Airport Blvd. exit (Exit 36) from the south. (FWIW, South Beltway 8/Sam Houston Tollway is four miles to the south-southwest of HOU via Telephone Rd. and about 3.5 miles north of South Loop 610 via Reveille/Telephone Rd.).

That said, from my past experience flying through MDW and having some long layovers there, the immediate area surrounding MDW isn't as bad compared to the rest of the South Side of Chicago or the rest of the city as a whole. I can't speak to HOU and that surrounding area as authoritative as MDW (I've only been to Houston once), but from my one time passing through the area near HOU, I don't recall noticing anything horrible about the neighborhood - I'll defer to the Houstonians on this one.

I would not consider any of the communities around MDW/IAH/HOU to be bad neighborhoods. They are working class ethnic Mexican and Black neighborhoods. This "bad neighborhood" talk is really anyplace that is not majority white strikes fear into hearts of many suburbanites.

usflyer msp wrote:

ctrabs0114 wrote:

YoungDon wrote:

Imo, this is usually what people mean when they say IAH is more "convenient" because honestly HOU is the same distance or closer to most of the business and wealth as IAH is. From the westside (say I-10 and the Beltway), taking the Beltway south is normally actually easier than taking it north in terms of traffic and hassle. Some people are just uncomfortable with the local neighborhood and don't use HOU as a result. I suspect the same is true of MDW vis a vis ORD.

According to Google Maps:

The nearest freeway to MDW is I-55/Stevenson Expressway, which is approximately two miles north of MDW via Cicero Ave. (Exit 286).

The nearest freeway to HOU is actually I-45/Gulf Freeway, which is approximately two miles northeast of HOU via the Winkler Dr./Monroe Blvd. (Exit 38) from the north or two miles east of the Airport Blvd. exit (Exit 36) from the south. (FWIW, South Beltway 8/Sam Houston Tollway is four miles to the south-southwest of HOU via Telephone Rd. and about 3.5 miles north of South Loop 610 via Reveille/Telephone Rd.).

That said, from my past experience flying through MDW and having some long layovers there, the immediate area surrounding MDW isn't as bad compared to the rest of the South Side of Chicago or the rest of the city as a whole. I can't speak to HOU and that surrounding area as authoritative as MDW (I've only been to Houston once), but from my one time passing through the area near HOU, I don't recall noticing anything horrible about the neighborhood - I'll defer to the Houstonians on this one.

I would not consider any of the communities around MDW/IAH/HOU to be bad neighborhoods. They are working class ethnic Mexican and Black neighborhoods. This "bad neighborhood" talk is really anyplace that is not majority white strikes fear into hearts of many suburbanites.

I think that's a very short sighted comment. There are very bad neighborhoods in Chicagoland. Funny we say this about cities like Chicago but others cities everybody defines them by their crime. The fact is in some places Chicago is a VERY dangerous city. Just like every other metro area there are bad and good places to live. It's not the ethnicity that creates fear it's the crime associated with it.

klm617 wrote:

usflyer msp wrote:

ctrabs0114 wrote:

According to Google Maps:

The nearest freeway to MDW is I-55/Stevenson Expressway, which is approximately two miles north of MDW via Cicero Ave. (Exit 286).

The nearest freeway to HOU is actually I-45/Gulf Freeway, which is approximately two miles northeast of HOU via the Winkler Dr./Monroe Blvd. (Exit 38) from the north or two miles east of the Airport Blvd. exit (Exit 36) from the south. (FWIW, South Beltway 8/Sam Houston Tollway is four miles to the south-southwest of HOU via Telephone Rd. and about 3.5 miles north of South Loop 610 via Reveille/Telephone Rd.).

That said, from my past experience flying through MDW and having some long layovers there, the immediate area surrounding MDW isn't as bad compared to the rest of the South Side of Chicago or the rest of the city as a whole. I can't speak to HOU and that surrounding area as authoritative as MDW (I've only been to Houston once), but from my one time passing through the area near HOU, I don't recall noticing anything horrible about the neighborhood - I'll defer to the Houstonians on this one.

I would not consider any of the communities around MDW/IAH/HOU to be bad neighborhoods. They are working class ethnic Mexican and Black neighborhoods. This "bad neighborhood" talk is really anyplace that is not majority white strikes fear into hearts of many suburbanites.

I think that's a very short sighted comment. There are very bad neighborhoods in Chicagoland. Funny we say this about cities like Chicago but others cities everybody defines them by their crime. The fact is in some places Chicago is a VERY dangerous city. Just like every other metro area there are bad and good places to live. It's not the ethnicity that creates fear it's the crime associated with it.

The dangerous neighborhoods in Chicago are not near MDW. The only thing a high-crime area like Lawndale and a bungalow community near MDW like Archer Heights have in common is that very few white people live there.

usflyer msp wrote:

ctrabs0114 wrote:

YoungDon wrote:

Imo, this is usually what people mean when they say IAH is more "convenient" because honestly HOU is the same distance or closer to most of the business and wealth as IAH is. From the westside (say I-10 and the Beltway), taking the Beltway south is normally actually easier than taking it north in terms of traffic and hassle. Some people are just uncomfortable with the local neighborhood and don't use HOU as a result. I suspect the same is true of MDW vis a vis ORD.

According to Google Maps:

The nearest freeway to MDW is I-55/Stevenson Expressway, which is approximately two miles north of MDW via Cicero Ave. (Exit 286).

The nearest freeway to HOU is actually I-45/Gulf Freeway, which is approximately two miles northeast of HOU via the Winkler Dr./Monroe Blvd. (Exit 38) from the north or two miles east of the Airport Blvd. exit (Exit 36) from the south. (FWIW, South Beltway 8/Sam Houston Tollway is four miles to the south-southwest of HOU via Telephone Rd. and about 3.5 miles north of South Loop 610 via Reveille/Telephone Rd.).

That said, from my past experience flying through MDW and having some long layovers there, the immediate area surrounding MDW isn't as bad compared to the rest of the South Side of Chicago or the rest of the city as a whole. I can't speak to HOU and that surrounding area as authoritative as MDW (I've only been to Houston once), but from my one time passing through the area near HOU, I don't recall noticing anything horrible about the neighborhood - I'll defer to the Houstonians on this one.

I would not consider any of the communities around MDW/IAH/HOU to be bad neighborhoods. They are working class ethnic Mexican and Black neighborhoods. This "bad neighborhood" talk is really anyplace that is not majority white strikes fear into hearts of many suburbanites.

not really, the area around HOU is far from "good neighborhood". There is nothing good about the area from UH all the way down past HOU. Has nothing to do with race or being scared white people, crime is crime.

usflyer msp wrote:

klm617 wrote:

usflyer msp wrote:

I would not consider any of the communities around MDW/IAH/HOU to be bad neighborhoods. They are working class ethnic Mexican and Black neighborhoods. This "bad neighborhood" talk is really anyplace that is not majority white strikes fear into hearts of many suburbanites.

I think that's a very short sighted comment. There are very bad neighborhoods in Chicagoland. Funny we say this about cities like Chicago but others cities everybody defines them by their crime. The fact is in some places Chicago is a VERY dangerous city. Just like every other metro area there are bad and good places to live. It's not the ethnicity that creates fear it's the crime associated with it.

The dangerous neighborhoods in Chicago are not near MDW. The only thing a high-crime area like Lawndale and a bungalow community near MDW like Archer Heights have in common is that very few white people live there.

But I disagree with your comment that because there is a lack of white people living some where they automatically assume it's unsafe.

ScottB wrote:

LAXdude1023 wrote:

Im not saying they cant make money at IAH. Im sure they can.

But its not a good comparison to the Bay or Southern California. Those places have many times the domestic O&D that the Houston area does.

"[M]any times the domestic O&D?" Not quite. To DEN, Southern California O&D is 2.4 times as large as Houston. Bay Area O&D to DEN is 1.8 times as large. But we're also talking about 4 or 5 airports in SoCal and 3 in the Bay Area. To Chicago, L.A. is 2.6 times as large while S.F is 1.8 times as large. And the Houston airports have something which the California airports don't -- good geography for connections.

Houston is easily large enough to support two good-sized airports, as it has done for fifty years.

flyingclrs727 wrote:

What terminal would WN use at IAH? Terminal A is awfully crowded with all the domestic non-UA flights. Eventually the north side of terminals A and B will be redeveloped, but that will have to happen after C, D, and E are expanded.

They'd definitely go to A, which is nowhere near as busy as you make it out to be, and wasn't even pre-Covid. A-North was rebuilt 20 or so years ago. There's a fair bit of room to extend A-North to the west (where the A-3 walkway gates are currently) and A-South to the south -- that's why the gate numbers skip in both concourses. If memory serves, WN used A7 before they left IAH.

I would think A-1 and A-2 would be the most likely candidates, and if expansion warrants they can tear down the A-3 ground gates and expand to the west as you stated. Could probably get another 2-3 gates this way..

CALMSP wrote:

usflyer msp wrote:

ctrabs0114 wrote:

According to Google Maps:

The nearest freeway to MDW is I-55/Stevenson Expressway, which is approximately two miles north of MDW via Cicero Ave. (Exit 286).

The nearest freeway to HOU is actually I-45/Gulf Freeway, which is approximately two miles northeast of HOU via the Winkler Dr./Monroe Blvd. (Exit 38) from the north or two miles east of the Airport Blvd. exit (Exit 36) from the south. (FWIW, South Beltway 8/Sam Houston Tollway is four miles to the south-southwest of HOU via Telephone Rd. and about 3.5 miles north of South Loop 610 via Reveille/Telephone Rd.).

That said, from my past experience flying through MDW and having some long layovers there, the immediate area surrounding MDW isn't as bad compared to the rest of the South Side of Chicago or the rest of the city as a whole. I can't speak to HOU and that surrounding area as authoritative as MDW (I've only been to Houston once), but from my one time passing through the area near HOU, I don't recall noticing anything horrible about the neighborhood - I'll defer to the Houstonians on this one.

I would not consider any of the communities around MDW/IAH/HOU to be bad neighborhoods. They are working class ethnic Mexican and Black neighborhoods. This "bad neighborhood" talk is really anyplace that is not majority white strikes fear into hearts of many suburbanites.

not really, the area around HOU is far from "good neighborhood". There is nothing good about the area from UH all the way down past HOU. Has nothing to do with race or being scared white people, crime is crime.

Unless there are carjackings or random daytime violence, crime doesn’t really affect airport users though. I use HOU quite a bit (I’m an upper middle class white guy) and haven’t ever felt unsafe.

klm617 wrote:

usflyer msp wrote:

klm617 wrote:

I think that's a very short sighted comment. There are very bad neighborhoods in Chicagoland. Funny we say this about cities like Chicago but others cities everybody defines them by their crime. The fact is in some places Chicago is a VERY dangerous city. Just like every other metro area there are bad and good places to live. It's not the ethnicity that creates fear it's the crime associated with it.

The dangerous neighborhoods in Chicago are not near MDW. The only thing a high-crime area like Lawndale and a bungalow community near MDW like Archer Heights have in common is that very few white people live there.

But I disagree with your comment that because there is a lack of white people living some where they automatically assume it's unsafe.

Not @ you specifically but ask some of these people to name a majority-minority community that they consider safe and you will get crickets....

CALMSP wrote:

usflyer msp wrote:

ctrabs0114 wrote:

According to Google Maps:

The nearest freeway to MDW is I-55/Stevenson Expressway, which is approximately two miles north of MDW via Cicero Ave. (Exit 286).

The nearest freeway to HOU is actually I-45/Gulf Freeway, which is approximately two miles northeast of HOU via the Winkler Dr./Monroe Blvd. (Exit 38) from the north or two miles east of the Airport Blvd. exit (Exit 36) from the south. (FWIW, South Beltway 8/Sam Houston Tollway is four miles to the south-southwest of HOU via Telephone Rd. and about 3.5 miles north of South Loop 610 via Reveille/Telephone Rd.).

That said, from my past experience flying through MDW and having some long layovers there, the immediate area surrounding MDW isn't as bad compared to the rest of the South Side of Chicago or the rest of the city as a whole. I can't speak to HOU and that surrounding area as authoritative as MDW (I've only been to Houston once), but from my one time passing through the area near HOU, I don't recall noticing anything horrible about the neighborhood - I'll defer to the Houstonians on this one.

I would not consider any of the communities around MDW/IAH/HOU to be bad neighborhoods. They are working class ethnic Mexican and Black neighborhoods. This "bad neighborhood" talk is really anyplace that is not majority white strikes fear into hearts of many suburbanites.

not really, the area around HOU is far from "good neighborhood". There is nothing good about the area from UH all the way down past HOU. Has nothing to do with race or being scared white people, crime is crime.

According the crime map - https://www.neighborhoodscout.com/tx/houston/crime - the crime rate in the neighborhoods around HOU is about the same as the neighborhoods around the Montrose. Would people consider it a "bad neighborhood"? What is the big difference????

usflyer msp wrote:

ctrabs0114 wrote:

YoungDon wrote:

Imo, this is usually what people mean when they say IAH is more "convenient" because honestly HOU is the same distance or closer to most of the business and wealth as IAH is. From the westside (say I-10 and the Beltway), taking the Beltway south is normally actually easier than taking it north in terms of traffic and hassle. Some people are just uncomfortable with the local neighborhood and don't use HOU as a result. I suspect the same is true of MDW vis a vis ORD.

According to Google Maps:

The nearest freeway to MDW is I-55/Stevenson Expressway, which is approximately two miles north of MDW via Cicero Ave. (Exit 286).

The nearest freeway to HOU is actually I-45/Gulf Freeway, which is approximately two miles northeast of HOU via the Winkler Dr./Monroe Blvd. (Exit 38) from the north or two miles east of the Airport Blvd. exit (Exit 36) from the south. (FWIW, South Beltway 8/Sam Houston Tollway is four miles to the south-southwest of HOU via Telephone Rd. and about 3.5 miles north of South Loop 610 via Reveille/Telephone Rd.).

That said, from my past experience flying through MDW and having some long layovers there, the immediate area surrounding MDW isn't as bad compared to the rest of the South Side of Chicago or the rest of the city as a whole. I can't speak to HOU and that surrounding area as authoritative as MDW (I've only been to Houston once), but from my one time passing through the area near HOU, I don't recall noticing anything horrible about the neighborhood - I'll defer to the Houstonians on this one.

I would not consider any of the communities around MDW/IAH/HOU to be bad neighborhoods. They are working class ethnic Mexican and Black neighborhoods. This "bad neighborhood" talk is really anyplace that is not majority white strikes fear into hearts of many suburbanites.

The area around HOU is rough no matter how PC you try to be.
With that said, greens point by IAH is also a rough area. Needless to say there is not a single person I know that doesn’t use Hobby because it requires going through a rough area. The statement regarding people not using Hobby because of the surrounding neighborhoods is comical.

usflyer msp wrote:

ctrabs0114 wrote:

YoungDon wrote:

Imo, this is usually what people mean when they say IAH is more "convenient" because honestly HOU is the same distance or closer to most of the business and wealth as IAH is. From the westside (say I-10 and the Beltway), taking the Beltway south is normally actually easier than taking it north in terms of traffic and hassle. Some people are just uncomfortable with the local neighborhood and don't use HOU as a result. I suspect the same is true of MDW vis a vis ORD.

According to Google Maps:

The nearest freeway to MDW is I-55/Stevenson Expressway, which is approximately two miles north of MDW via Cicero Ave. (Exit 286).

The nearest freeway to HOU is actually I-45/Gulf Freeway, which is approximately two miles northeast of HOU via the Winkler Dr./Monroe Blvd. (Exit 38) from the north or two miles east of the Airport Blvd. exit (Exit 36) from the south. (FWIW, South Beltway 8/Sam Houston Tollway is four miles to the south-southwest of HOU via Telephone Rd. and about 3.5 miles north of South Loop 610 via Reveille/Telephone Rd.).

That said, from my past experience flying through MDW and having some long layovers there, the immediate area surrounding MDW isn't as bad compared to the rest of the South Side of Chicago or the rest of the city as a whole. I can't speak to HOU and that surrounding area as authoritative as MDW (I've only been to Houston once), but from my one time passing through the area near HOU, I don't recall noticing anything horrible about the neighborhood - I'll defer to the Houstonians on this one.

I would not consider any of the communities around MDW/IAH/HOU to be bad neighborhoods. They are working class ethnic Mexican and Black neighborhoods. This "bad neighborhood" talk is really anyplace that is not majority white strikes fear into hearts of many suburbanites.

I'm familiar with both MDW and HOU neighborhoods and agree with you. They might not be affluent but I wldnt feel unsafe in those surrounding areas. Esp if I'm simply driving through.

Any indication of United may add HOU back in retaliation?

Glenbrook Valley, Eastwood, Riverside Terrace, and even the Third Ward have all been gentrifying for 20 years now. Telephone Road just north of 45 is a hipster paradise now. Suburban Houstonians have no idea what most areas are like. There are $3-5 million dollar mansions on full acres by UH.

drerx7 wrote:

Any indication of United may add HOU back in retaliation?

bring back those Brasilias and ATR's for shuttle service IAH-HOU/EFD!!

elbandgeek wrote:

SWADawg wrote:

elbandgeek wrote:

That's about the lowest thing on their list of things to be concerned about. MDW can handle 753s and the longest routes WN currently flies are only around 2000nm, nowhere near max range. *If* they wanted bigger planes, the number of potential routes that would need them to takeoff fully loaded is so small they'd probably just use an 8 on it anyway.

Not sure what that has to do with what he said. WN doesn’t fly 753’s, they do fly 737’s though and the short runways are a huge issue in flying any larger variant of the 737 from MDW. ORD allows WN to fly larger 737’s (MAX-9/-10) to anywhere the plane’s range will allow without restriction.

My point is the runway issue is overblown. Tell me a route where WN would by flying maximum range from MDW? It's in the middle of the country.

There wouldn't be any flights anywhere maximum gross weight to any airport in the contiguous US. Still the rotation angle on the ground would be quite limited with a 737-9 or -10.

ctrabs0114 wrote:

YoungDon wrote:

Imo, this is usually what people mean when they say IAH is more "convenient" because honestly HOU is the same distance or closer to most of the business and wealth as IAH is. From the westside (say I-10 and the Beltway), taking the Beltway south is normally actually easier than taking it north in terms of traffic and hassle. Some people are just uncomfortable with the local neighborhood and don't use HOU as a result. I suspect the same is true of MDW vis a vis ORD.

According to Google Maps:

The nearest freeway to MDW is I-55/Stevenson Expressway, which is approximately two miles north of MDW via Cicero Ave. (Exit 286).

The nearest freeway to HOU is actually I-45/Gulf Freeway, which is approximately two miles northeast of HOU via the Winkler Dr./Monroe Blvd. (Exit 38) from the north or two miles east of the Airport Blvd. exit (Exit 36) from the south. (FWIW, South Beltway 8/Sam Houston Tollway is four miles to the south-southwest of HOU via Telephone Rd. and about 3.5 miles north of South Loop 610 via Reveille/Telephone Rd.).

That said, from my past experience flying through MDW and having some long layovers there, the immediate area surrounding MDW isn't as bad compared to the rest of the South Side of Chicago or the rest of the city as a whole. I can't speak to HOU and that surrounding area as authoritative as MDW (I've only been to Houston once), but from my one time passing through the area near HOU, I don't recall noticing anything horrible about the neighborhood - I'll defer to the Houstonians on this one.

I was just using I-10 and the Beltway as an example because someone had commented on the convenience of HOU vs. IAH when it comes to the business communities and wealthy neighborhoods in the region. From there you could take 45 to get to HOU if you really wanted to sit in traffic or didn't want to pay the toll, but most people would use the Beltway and go north on Telephone or Monroe to get to HOU if convenience is the biggest driver of which airport they use.

bourbon wrote:

usflyer msp wrote:

ctrabs0114 wrote:

According to Google Maps:

The nearest freeway to MDW is I-55/Stevenson Expressway, which is approximately two miles north of MDW via Cicero Ave. (Exit 286).

The nearest freeway to HOU is actually I-45/Gulf Freeway, which is approximately two miles northeast of HOU via the Winkler Dr./Monroe Blvd. (Exit 38) from the north or two miles east of the Airport Blvd. exit (Exit 36) from the south. (FWIW, South Beltway 8/Sam Houston Tollway is four miles to the south-southwest of HOU via Telephone Rd. and about 3.5 miles north of South Loop 610 via Reveille/Telephone Rd.).

That said, from my past experience flying through MDW and having some long layovers there, the immediate area surrounding MDW isn't as bad compared to the rest of the South Side of Chicago or the rest of the city as a whole. I can't speak to HOU and that surrounding area as authoritative as MDW (I've only been to Houston once), but from my one time passing through the area near HOU, I don't recall noticing anything horrible about the neighborhood - I'll defer to the Houstonians on this one.

I would not consider any of the communities around MDW/IAH/HOU to be bad neighborhoods. They are working class ethnic Mexican and Black neighborhoods. This "bad neighborhood" talk is really anyplace that is not majority white strikes fear into hearts of many suburbanites.

The area around HOU is rough no matter how PC you try to be.
With that said, greens point by IAH is also a rough area. Needless to say there is not a single person I know that doesn’t use Hobby because it requires going through a rough area. The statement regarding people not using Hobby because of the surrounding neighborhoods is comical.

Another poster literally said earlier in this thread that it's a factor in why they choose IAH over HOU. I don't think its THE driving factor for most people (and I don't really think the areas immediately adjacent to either airport are particularly dangerous tbh), but for some people it's certainly a thing.

flyingclrs727 wrote:

There wouldn't be any flights anywhere maximum gross weight to any airport in the contiguous US. Still the rotation angle on the ground would be quite limited with a 737-9 or -10.

The taller gear of the -10 is supposed to mitigate that issue. There are over 500 739 and 739ERs in service. They are flown competently every day. WN pilots can be trained to pay attention to departure angle, too.

Cubsrule wrote:

jayunited wrote:

Flflyer83 wrote:

These will not be contract. They’ll be WN employees and likely employees from MDW, HOU, and FLL depending on the bidding of the positions.

It all depends on the contract between the union and WN.

Case and point when UA went back into MDW, UA created a bid and ORD employees (ramp, C.S. mechanics) were able to bid for MDW. UA could not contract out MDW because MDW is covered by ORD's contract. If UA were to ever go back into MDW the same rules would apply we can not contract out above or below the wing work or maintenance at MDW. If the unions representing ramp, C.S. and mechanics has similar language in their contract then WN would not be able to contract out MDW and IAH. But if no such language exist then it is any ones guess which way WN will go.

You may be conflating bidding for the positions with whether the station is handled by WN employees. The latter question is controlled by the size of the station.

^ Correct. The contract states any new stations can be contracted out on the ramp if it is 12 flights or less. The Union has been fighting the company since I was hired 8 years ago over them contracting out aircraft cleaning on the RONS. If the company wants to save money and increase productivity from its current members let us clean planes and get rid of the contract company. There is no point paying us to be there AND the aircraft cleaners. I have more to say but will keep it off of here.

flyingclrs727 wrote:

What terminal would WN use at IAH? Terminal A is awfully crowded with all the domestic non-UA flights. Eventually the north side of terminals A and B will be redeveloped, but that will have to happen after C, D, and E are expanded.

The airport is proceeding with an expansion plan to add at least 4 gates to Terminal A (and were proceeding with this plan prior to Southwest's announcement). The Terminal A expansion does not have to wait for C, D, and E to be expanded first, and there is no plan for it to wait. The initial expansion of Terminal A will probably be an extension of the south concourse.

For what it's worth sounds like WN will temporary be using M1 and M2 at ORD.
Long team parking Or park and fly definitely impacted if this is true since it's limited or lack of completely at T5.

My question is AA severely down on operation and how much do they currently use L20-L25? Can these gates accommodate a 737-700/800 or MAX8 ?

Flyguy

wnflyguy wrote:

For what it's worth sounds like WN will temporary be using M1 and M2 at ORD.
Long team parking Or park and fly definitely impacted if this is true since it's limited or lack of completely at T5.

My question is AA severely down on operation and how much do they currently use L20-L25? Can these gates accommodate a 737-700/800 or MAX8 ?

Flyguy

You really think American is going to lease gates to Southwest?? I’ve got some news for you.

Making news in the last couple of months around D/FW is the progress in the proposed Dallas-Houston high speed rail. With that in mind, could this expansion to North Houston be a move to either hurt the rails progress or prepare for when it opens? Southwest has for years lobbied against high speed from Dallas to Houston since they have such high frequencies, so perhaps that is a bigger factor in going back to IAH than anything to do with UA.

wnflyguy wrote:

For what it's worth sounds like WN will temporary be using M1 and M2 at ORD.
Long team parking Or park and fly definitely impacted if this is true since it's limited or lack of completely at T5.

My question is AA severely down on operation and how much do they currently use L20-L25? Can these gates accommodate a 737-700/800 or MAX8 ?

Flyguy

Interesting you say that about M1-M2 and no, L20-25 are regional only. btw, only one person I know made that comment to a group yesterday and it should also be noted T5 is fully common use and WN will follow the rules like everyone else. If you think WN will get preferential gates anytime soon, it's not going to happen, maybe 2 years at the earliest.

AirnerdTX wrote:

Making news in the last couple of months around D/FW is the progress in the proposed Dallas-Houston high-speed rail. With that in mind, could this expansion to North Houston be a move to either hurt the rails progress or prepare for when it opens? Southwest has for years lobbied against high speed from Dallas to Houston since they have such high frequencies, so perhaps that is a bigger factor in going back to IAH than anything to do with UA.

Doubtful. It is my understanding that while Southwest indeed lobbied vigorously against an earlier attempt to bring HSR to Texas (back in the early 90s), they have not done so this time around. (in fact, I think they have been supportive.) They do not have the DAL-HOU frequencies they used to have and that route does not have the level of importance to them that it formerly had.

AirnerdTX wrote:

Making news in the last couple of months around D/FW is the progress in the proposed Dallas-Houston high speed rail. With that in mind, could this expansion to North Houston be a move to either hurt the rails progress or prepare for when it opens? Southwest has for years lobbied against high speed from Dallas to Houston since they have such high frequencies, so perhaps that is a bigger factor in going back to IAH than anything to do with UA.

The PDEW's on DAL-HOU have generally been decreasing year after year in the last 14 years, even prior to the repeal of the Wright Amendment on October 13, 2014. In addition, WN is also carrying far fewer passengers on DAL-HOU nonstop flights in the last 7 months than it did prior to the COVID-19 pandemic.

Passengers can also get to the other WN destinations in the contiguous U.S. from HOU on WN without connecting through DAL, either nonstop or connecting through other cities.

There will still be a market for DAL-HOU nonstop service after the Texas Central Railway starts high-speed rail service between Dallas and Houston due to
(a) WN still having some O&D traffic on DAL-HOU nonstop flights after Texas Central Railway starts high-speed service between Dallas and Houston,
(b) connections to CRP and HRL in South Texas from DAL (and vice versa), and
(c) connections to international destinations in Mexico, Central America, and the Caribbean from DAL.

WN was also maxed out at DAL prior to the COVID-19 pandemic, and WN can add daily nonstop service to additional destinations out of DAL or increase frequencies on other nonstop routes out of DAL if WN reduces frequencies on DAL-HOU/IAH nonstop service after Texas Central Railway begins high-speed rail service between Dallas and Houston.

JL and NH also both still maintain a significant amount of nonstop service between HND in Tokyo and ITM in Osaka, even with both Tokyo and Osaka being connected via the Tokaido Shinkansen.

jcwr56 wrote:

wnflyguy wrote:

For what it's worth sounds like WN will temporary be using M1 and M2 at ORD.
Long team parking Or park and fly definitely impacted if this is true since it's limited or lack of completely at T5.

My question is AA severely down on operation and how much do they currently use L20-L25? Can these gates accommodate a 737-700/800 or MAX8 ?

Flyguy

Interesting you say that about M1-M2 and no, L20-25 are regional only. btw, only one person I know made that comment to a group yesterday and it should also be noted T5 is fully common use and WN will follow the rules like everyone else. If you think WN will get preferential gates anytime soon, it's not going to happen, maybe 2 years at the earliest.

What are the aircraft size limitations on M1 and M2? I believe LO used to park over there when they used 767s but that may be the largest aircraft they can accommodate.

GreenCountry wrote:

AirnerdTX wrote:

Making news in the last couple of months around D/FW is the progress in the proposed Dallas-Houston high-speed rail. With that in mind, could this expansion to North Houston be a move to either hurt the rails progress or prepare for when it opens? Southwest has for years lobbied against high speed from Dallas to Houston since they have such high frequencies, so perhaps that is a bigger factor in going back to IAH than anything to do with UA.

Doubtful. It is my understanding that while Southwest indeed lobbied vigorously against an earlier attempt to bring HSR to Texas (back in the early 90s), they have not done so this time around. (in fact, I think they have been supportive.) They do not have the DAL-HOU frequencies they used to have and that route does not have the level of importance to them that it formerly had.

I don't see how Texas Central ever makes a dime. They estimate that infrastructure costs for the project will be $20 billion. Annual debt service at 3% would be $600 million/year. The total annual revenue for air travel between DAL/DFW and HOU/IAH as of 2019 was a bit under $200 million. They'd have to carry over 3x the current air traffic -- at the current fare levels -- to pay off debt at a number I deliberately lowballed.

And since public transit is crap in both Houston & Dallas, you still need a car on either end. Ride share can help, but at some point you're just better-off taking your own car.

737MAX7 wrote:

Cubsrule wrote:

jayunited wrote:

The Union has been fighting the company since I was hired 8 years ago over them contracting out aircraft cleaning on the RONS. If the company wants to save money and increase productivity from its current members let us clean planes and get rid of the contract company. There is no point paying us to be there AND the aircraft cleaners. I have more to say but will keep it off of here.

I will say I experience the most consistency, the cleanest aircraft, and the best overall service (including appearance standards) in our contract stations.

WNCrew wrote:

737MAX7 wrote:

Cubsrule wrote:

I will say I experience the most consistency, the cleanest aircraft, and the best overall service (including appearance standards) in our contract stations.

Aircraft cleaning is contract across the board. WN hasn’t has “in house” RONn cleaners in many, many years.

ScottB wrote:

GreenCountry wrote:

AirnerdTX wrote:

Making news in the last couple of months around D/FW is the progress in the proposed Dallas-Houston high-speed rail. With that in mind, could this expansion to North Houston be a move to either hurt the rails progress or prepare for when it opens? Southwest has for years lobbied against high speed from Dallas to Houston since they have such high frequencies, so perhaps that is a bigger factor in going back to IAH than anything to do with UA.

Doubtful. It is my understanding that while Southwest indeed lobbied vigorously against an earlier attempt to bring HSR to Texas (back in the early 90s), they have not done so this time around. (in fact, I think they have been supportive.) They do not have the DAL-HOU frequencies they used to have and that route does not have the level of importance to them that it formerly had.

I don't see how Texas Central ever makes a dime. They estimate that infrastructure costs for the project will be $20 billion. Annual debt service at 3% would be $600 million/year. The total annual revenue for air travel between DAL/DFW and HOU/IAH as of 2019 was a bit under $200 million. They'd have to carry over 3x the current air traffic -- at the current fare levels -- to pay off debt at a number I deliberately lowballed.

And since public transit is crap in both Houston & Dallas, you still need a car on either end. Ride share can help, but at some point you're just better-off taking your own car.

Driving I-45 between DAL and HOU is becoming a nightmare. Not uncommon to run into heavy traffic northbound
out of H-town and not be able to get above 55 mph until you're past Huntsville. I live in DFW but have family in IAH,
so I'm definitely going to give the HSR a try