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RWA380
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CO served multiple LA area airports with one flight, how many other carriers did this?

Fri Oct 16, 2020 8:25 am

I am paging through OAG routings from the back of the book & Nov 1979 CO operated a flight routed SEA-PDX-BUR-ONT-LAX & return the exact same way, why? I get tag routes, but hitting 3 area airports seems, well fun first, then I kind of feel bad for the person going to LAX. Look under CO flights 301 & 306. http://www.departedflights.com/OAG1179itin4.html

I know AS flew ONT-BUR-PDX/SEA or ONT-LGB-PDX/SEA & a couple more, TW did a LAX-ONT, SNA-LAX IIRC. I'm sure RW did this, back when multi stop itineraries were the normal. I know it was done in the bay area between SJC/OAK/SFO.
707 717 720 727-1/2 737-1/2/3/4/5/6/7/8/9 747-1/2/3/4 757-2/3 767-2/3/4 777-2/3 DC8 DC9 MD80/2/7/8 D10-1/3/4 M11 L10-1/2/5 A300/310/320
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MIflyer12
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Re: CO served multiple LA area airports with one flight, how many other carriers did this?

Fri Oct 16, 2020 11:32 am

RWA380 wrote:
I am paging through OAG routings from the back of the book & Nov 1979 CO operated a flight routed SEA-PDX-BUR-ONT-LAX & return the exact same way, why?


1979? Some oddity of CAB route regulation, like getting SEA-LAX and then stuffing in the other stops? Just speculation on my part.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: CO served multiple LA area airports with one flight, how many other carriers did this?

Fri Oct 16, 2020 12:22 pm

Wasn't Continental at one time headquartered in Los Angeles, pre-deregulation?
 
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Polot
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Re: CO served multiple LA area airports with one flight, how many other carriers did this?

Fri Oct 16, 2020 12:28 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
Wasn't Continental at one time headquartered in Los Angeles, pre-deregulation?

Yes, from the early 60s until Texas Air bought them in the early 80s CO was headquartered in Los Angeles and was a primarily west coast airline unlike its later self.

Their long time CEO Robert Six was married to actress Audrey Meadows and CO very much targeted the Hollywood set.
 
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STT757
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Re: CO served multiple LA area airports with one flight, how many other carriers did this?

Fri Oct 16, 2020 1:25 pm

There were many flights back in '80s, post deregulation, that still had regional tags. For instance in the 1985 OAG Eastern had flights from Ontario to both Los Angeles and San Diego.

http://www.departedflights.com/ONT85p1.html

Other notables from this OAG snapshot at Ontario:

Alaska 727 to Burbank
Western 737 to Los Angeles
United 727 to Los Angeles
American and TWA 727s to Palm Springs
Delta 767, 727 to San Diego
United 727 to San Diego
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
DesertAir
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Re: CO served multiple LA area airports with one flight, how many other carriers did this?

Fri Oct 16, 2020 2:08 pm

Back sometime in the mid 80s I flew on Alaska Burbank-Long Beach-San Francisco. It was a beautiful flight between Burbank and Long Beach. The plane flew at a low altitude with breathtaking views of the LA Basin.
 
LASVegan
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Re: CO served multiple LA area airports with one flight, how many other carriers did this?

Fri Oct 16, 2020 2:19 pm

Northwest did an MSP-SNA-ONT-MSP round robin well into the 90s. I believe they may have been the last to fly scheduled mainline jet service between LA area airports. I seem to remember this flight lasting to maybe 94.

http://www.departedflights.com/NW121592p23.html
 
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knope2001
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Re: CO served multiple LA area airports with one flight, how many other carriers did this?

Fri Oct 16, 2020 2:46 pm

Likely the final tag to/from LAX was to get the aircraft and crew back to their base in Los Angeles rather than overnight in ONT. Doubtful a who lot of passengers flew through to LAX but probably some.

This sort of thing wasn't uncommon back in the 60's and 70's. A mid-70's United timetable I was looking at recently had several instances where an aircraft made a late-night hop to ORD, CLE or SFO instead of RON'ing at an outstation with the reverse true in the early morning. I recall a CLE-YNG-CAK-TPA flight leaving Cleveland at around 6:15am which wasn't even published in the timetable because there was a CLE-TPA nonstop which overlapped. Sometimes those tags would offer connections to/from a redeye, but not always. There was an ORD-GRR flight at 5:00am which was too early for the west coast redeye arrivals to feed in that timetable.

Interesting how perspectives change. At the time it was apparently seen as worth the cost of the extra hop to get the aircraft to a maintenance base for overnight work and easy swapping plus saving the cost of putting up the crew. And overnighting a crew at an outstation either means a constant crew rotation or a long aircraft layover if the same crew coming in at night takes the bird out the next day. These days its about getting every last bit of revenue they can reasonable obtain from every aircraft and every segment. That's why tags in general are mostly gone.
 
Ziyulu
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Re: CO served multiple LA area airports with one flight, how many other carriers did this?

Fri Oct 16, 2020 2:55 pm

Does the seat belt sign get turned off between the short hops?
 
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September11
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Re: CO served multiple LA area airports with one flight, how many other carriers did this?

Fri Oct 16, 2020 3:07 pm

Many of them!
Airliners.net of the Future
 
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cathay747
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Re: CO served multiple LA area airports with one flight, how many other carriers did this?

Fri Oct 16, 2020 3:50 pm

Polot wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
Wasn't Continental at one time headquartered in Los Angeles, pre-deregulation?

Yes, from the early 60s until Texas Air bought them in the early 80s CO was headquartered in Los Angeles and was a primarily west coast airline unlike its later self.

Their long time CEO Robert Six was married to actress Audrey Meadows and CO very much targeted the Hollywood set.


CO was not primarily a west coast airline; it was primarily an east/west airline, with a heavy presence in Texas & the Plains/Midwest (incl. many north/south routes which were a legacy of the Pioneer merger), as you can see in any of their 60's/70's (pre-dereg.) route maps as shown on departedflights.com...

http://www.departedflights.com/CO030166.html
http://www.departedflights.com/CO102669.html
http://www.departedflights.com/CO103171.html
http://www.departedflights.com/CO102774.html

Totally correct about his wife Audrey; trivia item: it was Audrey who suggested to add the string of pearls to the CO basic black dress F/A uniform, to great success, it was a very elegant uniform which Audrey said a girl could wear out for the evening after a flight by simply removing the wings.
Try a Little VC-10derness
 
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WesternDC6
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Re: CO served multiple LA area airports with one flight, how many other carriers did this?

Fri Oct 16, 2020 4:25 pm

I had the wonderful experience of flying on an Alaska 727 --ONT-BUR-PDX-SEA one sunny and clear afternoon back in '85. I didn't expect to fly to Burbank from Ontario, but it was a fun to take off and fly down the 10 freeway towards LA then do a quick circle to land on Runway 15. One of the more unique flights I have taken.
 
se210
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Re: CO served multiple LA area airports with one flight, how many other carriers did this?

Fri Oct 16, 2020 4:42 pm

On a LAX Airplane Spotting Trip during our School March Break in 1980, my friend and I flew CO#301 from LAX-ONT-BUR. I purchased the tickets the day before at LAX. At first the CO Agent said the routing/fare could not be done. I referenced the OAG Fare Guide where I pointed out the $10 fare from LAX-BUR (via ONT). The CO agent checked with her supervisor who confirmed I was correct and we got our tickets for $10 each.

Our flight was scheduled for very early morning the next day: 3/19/80 (a Wednesday). As boarding time approached we realized, aside from 5 or so CO crew members, we were the only passengers. So this leads me to believe perhaps the LAX-ONT portion of CO#301 was really a crew/positioning flight.

According to my flight log, CO#301 was N40481, a B727-22 and ex-UA machine.



CO#301 from LAX to ONT took exactly 33 minutes from wheels up to wheels down. Takeoff from LAX was from runway 25R (to the west) and landing at Ontario was runway 26R (to the west). I seem to remember 10,000 was the max cruise altitude. We also got a drink service and some peanuts!

At ONT about 30 or so people got on for the BUR/PDX/SEA leg. After we took off from ONT the flight attendants reminded us two times we needed to get off at BUR. The flight from ONT-BUR was exactly 23 minutes (wheels up/wheels down) and, once we landed at BUR, we were the only ones to get off.

Unfortunately, at that time, there were no flights from BUR-LAX so we took the airport express bus back to LAX for some more spotting from the observation deck at the Theme Building. I think the airport express bus fare from BUR-LAX was about $5 which seemed a lot since we had just flown from LAX-ONT-BUR for $10!
 
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LAXintl
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Re: CO served multiple LA area airports with one flight, how many other carriers did this?

Fri Oct 16, 2020 4:46 pm

Back in the day there was indeed all type of such LA basin hops by multiple airlines. One not mentioned was BUR-LGB but TWA for example.

Regarding CO specifically, as mentioned by knope2001, many LAX tags were meant to move aircraft and crews to their LAX base for both maintenance and crew training. It was not unusual to see a 707/720 do the LAX-ONT hop as part of crew training as easy means to build crew qualification.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
PSAatSAN4Ever
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Re: CO served multiple LA area airports with one flight, how many other carriers did this?

Fri Oct 16, 2020 5:04 pm

If I remember correctly, at one point in the 1980's when tag-ons were still a thing, TWA had either LGB-BUR-STL and SNA-ONT-STL or LGB-ONT-STL and SNA-BUR-STL flights. I remember in their flight book seeing all four of the non-LAX flights were tag-ons with each other.

Tag-ons always fascinated me, because of the complexity of intra-metro area services, and just how short could a scheduled flight be? We all know of the OAK-SFO flights, as well as FLL-MIA services as well. And in the 1980's, when jet service returned to BFL after deregulation, both American and United had nearly every flight a tag-on or triangle:

AA: SBA-BFL-DFW, DFW-BFL-SBA-DFW, DFW-BFL-SBA, and at one point, BFL-SNA-ORD
UA: SFO-BFL-SBA-SFO, SFO-SBA-BFL-SFO, BFL-FAT-DEN, DEN-BFL-FAT-DEN, DEN-FAT-BFL, SFO-FAT-BFL-DEN, DEN-BFL-FAT-SFO.

I bring this up because I flew BFL-SBA and back in 1986, and the United reservation system didn't really like booking a ticket on that route. It finally sold it to me; however, my assigned seat was taken and I got a middle seat for the 20 minute flight outbound (very full flight). The return was my last 727-100 flight, and I sat just behind the mid-cabin galley. Not a high altitude flight at all, but it was visually stunning, as the full majesty of the coast range mountains had my eyes glued to the window. Not the world's highest mountains, but certainly among the most rugged.
 
CantbeGrounded
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Re: CO served multiple LA area airports with one flight, how many other carriers did this?

Fri Oct 16, 2020 5:10 pm

se210 wrote:
On a LAX Airplane Spotting Trip during our School March Break in 1980, my friend and I flew CO#301 from LAX-ONT-BUR. I purchased the tickets the day before at LAX. At first the CO Agent said the routing/fare could not be done. I referenced the OAG Fare Guide where I pointed out the $10 fare from LAX-BUR (via ONT). The CO agent checked with her supervisor who confirmed I was correct and we got our tickets for $10 each.

Our flight was scheduled for very early morning the next day: 3/19/80 (a Wednesday). As boarding time approached we realized, aside from 5 or so CO crew members, we were the only passengers. So this leads me to believe perhaps the LAX-ONT portion of CO#301 was really a crew/positioning flight.

According to my flight log, CO#301 was N40481, a B727-22 and ex-UA machine.



CO#301 from LAX to ONT took exactly 33 minutes from wheels up to wheels down. Takeoff from LAX was from runway 25R (to the west) and landing at Ontario was runway 26R (to the west). I seem to remember 10,000 was the max cruise altitude. We also got a drink service and some peanuts!

At ONT about 30 or so people got on for the BUR/PDX/SEA leg. After we took off from ONT the flight attendants reminded us two times we needed to get off at BUR. The flight from ONT-BUR was exactly 23 minutes (wheels up/wheels down) and, once we landed at BUR, we were the only ones to get off.

Unfortunately, at that time, there were no flights from BUR-LAX so we took the airport express bus back to LAX for some more spotting from the observation deck at the Theme Building. I think the airport express bus fare from BUR-LAX was about $5 which seemed a lot since we had just flown from LAX-ONT-BUR for $10!


I am begging you to please reminisce more frequently...
 
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STLFlyboy
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Re: CO served multiple LA area airports with one flight, how many other carriers did this?

Fri Oct 16, 2020 6:27 pm

Not LA-related, but the older I get, the less I can resist reminiscing.

Tags could be a godsend for non-revs. A late evening UA OAK-SFO tag saved the day for me once in the late 70s. After getting bumped off multiple DC-10s operating ORD-SFO, a closer look at the timetable revealed a 727-100 operating ORD-OAK-SFO, on which I lucked out and snagged a first class seat. It made for such a fun evening for this avgeek, I purposefully retraced my outbound steps on the return.
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Coronado990
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Re: CO served multiple LA area airports with one flight, how many other carriers did this?

Fri Oct 16, 2020 7:10 pm

Back in the 1970's, if you knew your routing guides, you could string a bunch of different tag-on's together for the same through fare. In 1975 I flew for $24.00 from SFO-MOD-SCK in the morning (5:15am flight on a UA 737), a Hughes Air West F-27 from SCK-SMX-LAX in the afternoon and a DL L-1011 from LAX-SAN in the evening. Great times indeed.
SFO=NoCal LAX=SoCal SAN=LoCal
 
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RWA380
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Re: CO served multiple LA area airports with one flight, how many other carriers did this?

Fri Oct 16, 2020 8:28 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
RWA380 wrote:
I am paging through OAG routings from the back of the book & Nov 1979 CO operated a flight routed SEA-PDX-BUR-ONT-LAX & return the exact same way, why?


1979? Some oddity of CAB route regulation, like getting SEA-LAX and then stuffing in the other stops? Just speculation on my part.


While deregulation started in October 1978 & most carriers added lots of routes (no one like BN) I bet as it was only a year later, airlines were holding onto old habits & patterns.

STT757 wrote:
There were many flights back in '80s, post deregulation, that still had regional tags. For instance in the 1985 OAG Eastern had flights from Ontario to both Los Angeles and San Diego.

http://www.departedflights.com/ONT85p1.html

Other notables from this OAG snapshot at Ontario:

Alaska 727 to Burbank
Western 737 to Los Angeles
United 727 to Los Angeles
American and TWA 727s to Palm Springs
Delta 767, 727 to San Diego
United 727 to San Diego


In 1982, IIRC, I flew CO 72S SAN-ONT o/w for $23.00, I was actually needing to fly that route & CO had the only flight, it was after 9pm & took next to no time. I also flew ONT-BUR-PDX on that same trip on an AS 727, it was awesome on the ONT-BUR flight, barely a dozen passengers & a steep take off.

cathay747 wrote:
by Polot » 16 Oct 2020 05:28


cathay747 wrote:
Polot wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
Wasn't Continental at one time headquartered in Los Angeles, pre-deregulation?

Yes, from the early 60s until Texas Air bought them in the early 80s CO was headquartered in Los Angeles and was a primarily west coast airline unlike its later self.

Their long time CEO Robert Six was married to actress Audrey Meadows and CO very much targeted the Hollywood set.


CO was not primarily a west coast airline; it was primarily an east/west airline, with a heavy presence in Texas & the Plains/Midwest (incl. many north/south routes which were a legacy of the Pioneer merger), as you can see in any of their 60's/70's (pre-dereg.) route maps as shown on departedflights.com...

http://www.departedflights.com/CO030166.html
http://www.departedflights.com/CO102669.html
http://www.departedflights.com/CO103171.html
http://www.departedflights.com/CO102774.html

Totally correct about his wife Audrey; trivia item: it was Audrey who suggested to add the string of pearls to the CO basic black dress F/A uniform, to great success, it was a very elegant uniform which Audrey said a girl could wear out for the evening after a flight by simply removing the wings.


Notice that CO served both PDX & SEA, from Wichita KS only. Before they served from DEN, that is the CAB at work, on 707's or 720's.

WesternDC6 wrote:
I had the wonderful experience of flying on an Alaska 727 --ONT-BUR-PDX-SEA one sunny and clear afternoon back in '85. I didn't expect to fly to Burbank from Ontario, but it was a fun to take off and fly down the 10 freeway towards LA then do a quick circle to land on Runway 15. One of the more unique flights I have taken.


Same here, just got off in PDX. Cool huh?

PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:
If I remember correctly, at one point in the 1980's when tag-ons were still a thing, TWA had either LGB-BUR-STL and SNA-ONT-STL or LGB-ONT-STL and SNA-BUR-STL flights. I remember in their flight book seeing all four of the non-LAX flights were tag-ons with each other.

Tag-ons always fascinated me, because of the complexity of intra-metro area services, and just how short could a scheduled flight be? We all know of the OAK-SFO flights, as well as FLL-MIA services as well. And in the 1980's, when jet service returned to BFL after deregulation, both American and United had nearly every flight a tag-on or triangle:

AA: SBA-BFL-DFW, DFW-BFL-SBA-DFW, DFW-BFL-SBA, and at one point, BFL-SNA-ORD
UA: SFO-BFL-SBA-SFO, SFO-SBA-BFL-SFO, BFL-FAT-DEN, DEN-BFL-FAT-DEN, DEN-FAT-BFL, SFO-FAT-BFL-DEN, DEN-BFL-FAT-SFO.

I bring this up because I flew BFL-SBA and back in 1986, and the United reservation system didn't really like booking a ticket on that route. It finally sold it to me; however, my assigned seat was taken and I got a middle seat for the 20 minute flight outbound (very full flight). The return was my last 727-100 flight, and I sat just behind the mid-cabin galley. Not a high altitude flight at all, but it was visually stunning, as the full majesty of the coast range mountains had my eyes glued to the window. Not the world's highest mountains, but certainly among the most rugged.


The West Coast had many milk runs, UA ran SEA-PDX-SLE-MFR-SFO, SEA-PDX-EUG-MFR-SFO, SEA-PDX-PDT-BOI-SLC-DEN.
CantbeGrounded wrote:
se210 wrote:
On a LAX Airplane Spotting Trip during our School March Break in 1980, my friend and I flew CO#301 from LAX-ONT-BUR. I purchased the tickets the day before at LAX. At first the CO Agent said the routing/fare could not be done. I referenced the OAG Fare Guide where I pointed out the $10 fare from LAX-BUR (via ONT). The CO agent checked with her supervisor who confirmed I was correct and we got our tickets for $10 each.

Our flight was scheduled for very early morning the next day: 3/19/80 (a Wednesday). As boarding time approached we realized, aside from 5 or so CO crew members, we were the only passengers. So this leads me to believe perhaps the LAX-ONT portion of CO#301 was really a crew/positioning flight.

According to my flight log, CO#301 was N40481, a B727-22 and ex-UA machine.



CO#301 from LAX to ONT took exactly 33 minutes from wheels up to wheels down. Takeoff from LAX was from runway 25R (to the west) and landing at Ontario was runway 26R (to the west). I seem to remember 10,000 was the max cruise altitude. We also got a drink service and some peanuts!

At ONT about 30 or so people got on for the BUR/PDX/SEA leg. After we took off from ONT the flight attendants reminded us two times we needed to get off at BUR. The flight from ONT-BUR was exactly 23 minutes (wheels up/wheels down) and, once we landed at BUR, we were the only ones to get off.

Unfortunately, at that time, there were no flights from BUR-LAX so we took the airport express bus back to LAX for some more spotting from the observation deck at the Theme Building. I think the airport express bus fare from BUR-LAX was about $5 which seemed a lot since we had just flown from LAX-ONT-BUR for $10!


I am begging you to please reminisce more frequently...


I fully agree with this statement, please anytime share like you did, it was awesome to read, well done!

Coronado990 wrote:
Back in the 1970's, if you knew your routing guides, you could string a bunch of different tag-on's together for the same through fare. In 1975 I flew for $24.00 from SFO-MOD-SCKin the morning (5:15am flight on a UA 737), a Hughes Air West F-27 from SCK-SMX-LAX in the afternoon and a DL L-1011 from LAX-SAN in the evening. Great times indeed.


Growing up here in Portland OR, we had the best tags, PDX-SEA-PDX has had 33 carriers & counting :

Seattle WA (SEA) – AA, AS, BF, BN, B6, CO, CZ, DL, EA, FL, HA, JK, JT, KN, NK, NW, OC, OO, PA,
PN, QQ, QX, RC, RW, SI, TW, TZ, US, SY, UA, UAX, WA, WC

I've flown for $10.00-$35.00 each way, $33.00 r/t on TW, the fares were cheap & I skipped lots of school & I'd fly to Seattle twice & go home.
707 717 720 727-1/2 737-1/2/3/4/5/6/7/8/9 747-1/2/3/4 757-2/3 767-2/3/4 777-2/3 DC8 DC9 MD80/2/7/8 D10-1/3/4 M11 L10-1/2/5 A300/310/320
AA AC AQ AS BA BD BN CO CS DL EA EZ HA HG HP KL KN MP MW NK NW OZ PA PS QX RC RH RW SA TG TW UA US VS WA WC WN WP YS 8M
 
DesertAir
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Re: CO served multiple LA area airports with one flight, how many other carriers did this?

Sat Oct 17, 2020 11:33 am

While we are speaking about tags, around 2006 UA had a tag from PHX into TUS from their Washington, DC flight. Also, from the Central Valley, I once took a night flight on UA SFO-MOD-SCK. One of my favorite milk runs was in Central America. COPA had a morning Guatemala-Honduras-El Salvador-Costa Rica-Panama flight and an evening return.
 
PSAatSAN4Ever
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Re: CO served multiple LA area airports with one flight, how many other carriers did this?

Sat Oct 17, 2020 2:45 pm

I SO wanted to start my own thread in Polls & Preferences about tag-ons versus milk runs...but I think it comes down to tag-ons working like a railroad route, and tag-ons a way to either (a) serve two cities to one hub with one plane, OR (b) getting a plane to an airline/aircrew base.

But I think the BUR-ONT-LAX flights have to take the crown, unless someone ever did SJC-OAK-SFO or EWR-LGA-JFK. Are there any other metropolitan areas in the U.S. that were served like this with three nearby airports?
 
catiii
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Re: CO served multiple LA area airports with one flight, how many other carriers did this?

Sat Oct 17, 2020 4:05 pm

Coronado990 wrote:
Back in the 1970's, if you knew your routing guides, you could string a bunch of different tag-on's together for the same through fare. In 1975 I flew for $24.00 from SFO-MOD-SCK in the morning (5:15am flight on a UA 737), a Hughes Air West F-27 from SCK-SMX-LAX in the afternoon and a DL L-1011 from LAX-SAN in the evening. Great times indeed.


Same in south Florida well into the 90s on DL. A lot of MIA-FLL or PBI-FLL tags...
 
SL1200MK2
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Re: CO served multiple LA area airports with one flight, how many other carriers did this?

Sat Oct 17, 2020 4:50 pm

PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:
I SO wanted to start my own thread in Polls & Preferences about tag-ons versus milk runs...but I think it comes down to tag-ons working like a railroad route, and tag-ons a way to either (a) serve two cities to one hub with one plane, OR (b) getting a plane to an airline/aircrew base.

But I think the BUR-ONT-LAX flights have to take the crown, unless someone ever did SJC-OAK-SFO or EWR-LGA-JFK. Are there any other metropolitan areas in the U.S. that were served like this with three nearby airports?


I’m not sure how long it lasted, but America Eagle did SBP-SFO-SJC for a short time. I believe it was when they were scaling back the SJC hub and decided to make the SBP-SJC flight SBP-SFO-SJC. I really enjoyed this short segment down the peninsula.
 
The777Man
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Re: CO served multiple LA area airports with one flight, how many other carriers did this?

Sat Oct 17, 2020 6:43 pm

TW had a JFK-PHX-LAX in 1993-94 with a 762 which isn't as short as the ones mentioned but great for me as I couldn't get on the nonstop to LAX.

The777Man
Boeing 777s flown: UA, TG, KE, BA, CX, NH, JD, JL, CZ, SQ, EK, NG, CO, AF, SV, KU, DL, AA, MH, OZ, CA, MS, SU, LY, RG, PE, AZ, KL, VN, PK, EY, NZ, AM, BR, AC, DT, UU, OS, AI, 9W, KQ, QR, VA, JJ, ET, TK, PR, BG, T5, CI, MU and LX.. Further to fly.. LH 777
 
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KLMatSJC
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Re: CO served multiple LA area airports with one flight, how many other carriers did this?

Sat Oct 17, 2020 7:03 pm

SL1200MK2 wrote:
PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:
I SO wanted to start my own thread in Polls & Preferences about tag-ons versus milk runs...but I think it comes down to tag-ons working like a railroad route, and tag-ons a way to either (a) serve two cities to one hub with one plane, OR (b) getting a plane to an airline/aircrew base.

But I think the BUR-ONT-LAX flights have to take the crown, unless someone ever did SJC-OAK-SFO or EWR-LGA-JFK. Are there any other metropolitan areas in the U.S. that were served like this with three nearby airports?


I’m not sure how long it lasted, but America Eagle did SBP-SFO-SJC for a short time. I believe it was when they were scaling back the SJC hub and decided to make the SBP-SJC flight SBP-SFO-SJC. I really enjoyed this short segment down the peninsula.

There have been quite a few airlines to do SFO-SJC. SFO Helicopter Airlines served various destinations in the Bay Area from SFO with S-61s, S-62s, and Bell 206s.
A318/19/20/21/21N A332/3 A343/5 A388 B712 B722 B732/3/4/7/8/9/9ER B744/4M B752/3 B762ER/3/3ER/4ER B772/E/L/W B788 CRJ2/7/9 Q400 EMB-120 ERJ-135/140/145/145XR/175 DC-10-10 MD-82/83/88/90

Long Live the Tulip, Cactus, and Redwood
 
departedflights
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Re: CO served multiple LA area airports with one flight, how many other carriers did this?

Sat Oct 17, 2020 7:13 pm

KLMatSJC wrote:
SL1200MK2 wrote:
PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:
I SO wanted to start my own thread in Polls & Preferences about tag-ons versus milk runs...but I think it comes down to tag-ons working like a railroad route, and tag-ons a way to either (a) serve two cities to one hub with one plane, OR (b) getting a plane to an airline/aircrew base.

But I think the BUR-ONT-LAX flights have to take the crown, unless someone ever did SJC-OAK-SFO or EWR-LGA-JFK. Are there any other metropolitan areas in the U.S. that were served like this with three nearby airports?


I’m not sure how long it lasted, but America Eagle did SBP-SFO-SJC for a short time. I believe it was when they were scaling back the SJC hub and decided to make the SBP-SJC flight SBP-SFO-SJC. I really enjoyed this short segment down the peninsula.

There have been quite a few airlines to do SFO-SJC. SFO Helicopter Airlines served various destinations in the Bay Area from SFO with S-61s, S-62s, and Bell 206s.


Yes... many airlines have done SFO-SJC, but I think PSAatSAN4Ever meant did any airline ever serve SJC-OAK-SFO (all THREE cities) with ONE flight.
The opinions are expressed are my own and do not represent those of anyone else, including my coworkers or my employer.
 
wedgetail737
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Re: CO served multiple LA area airports with one flight, how many other carriers did this?

Sat Oct 17, 2020 7:40 pm

STLFlyboy wrote:
Not LA-related, but the older I get, the less I can resist reminiscing.

Tags could be a godsend for non-revs. A late evening UA OAK-SFO tag saved the day for me once in the late 70s. After getting bumped off multiple DC-10s operating ORD-SFO, a closer look at the timetable revealed a 727-100 operating ORD-OAK-SFO, on which I lucked out and snagged a first class seat. It made for such a fun evening for this avgeek, I purposefully retraced my outbound steps on the return.


The Bay Area had a lot of tag flights, even well-after the onset of deregulation like:

TW OAK-SJC-STL as a redeye with a M80.
As you mentioned, UA had a 727-100 between OAK and SFO for a LONG time.
CO had OAK-SFO-IAH with a 733.
QX had a BOI-SJC-OAK-BOI with a F28-1000.
WA had SLC-FAT-OAK-SLC in the afternoon with a 737-200.
Frontier had DEN-SCK-OAK-DEN run in the afternoon.
Pride Air had the MSY-SFO-SMF run with a 727-100.

I think even Far West Airlines had the FAT-SJC-OAK-FAT route.

I'm sure there were many others. But those are the ones I remember.

Sorry...back on point.
 
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KLMatSJC
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Re: CO served multiple LA area airports with one flight, how many other carriers did this?

Sat Oct 17, 2020 8:00 pm

departedflights wrote:
KLMatSJC wrote:
SL1200MK2 wrote:

I’m not sure how long it lasted, but America Eagle did SBP-SFO-SJC for a short time. I believe it was when they were scaling back the SJC hub and decided to make the SBP-SJC flight SBP-SFO-SJC. I really enjoyed this short segment down the peninsula.

There have been quite a few airlines to do SFO-SJC. SFO Helicopter Airlines served various destinations in the Bay Area from SFO with S-61s, S-62s, and Bell 206s.


Yes... many airlines have done SFO-SJC, but I think PSAatSAN4Ever meant did any airline ever serve SJC-OAK-SFO (all THREE cities) with ONE flight.

Ok I think I found one. On the July 1972 timetable, Hughes Airwest had a flight that did SFO-OAK-SJC-LAS-PHX-MZT-GDL. They also had a return flight that did GDL-MZT-LAP-PHX-LAS-SJC-OAK-SFO.
A318/19/20/21/21N A332/3 A343/5 A388 B712 B722 B732/3/4/7/8/9/9ER B744/4M B752/3 B762ER/3/3ER/4ER B772/E/L/W B788 CRJ2/7/9 Q400 EMB-120 ERJ-135/140/145/145XR/175 DC-10-10 MD-82/83/88/90

Long Live the Tulip, Cactus, and Redwood
 
COPolynesianPub
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Re: CO served multiple LA area airports with one flight, how many other carriers did this?

Sat Oct 17, 2020 8:12 pm

I started working in LAX MX on June 12, 1978. The 727 overnighted for maintenance in the hangar and would depart before dawn. If I am not mistaken, the flight ferried to ONT. I don't recall it going to the terminal to start the trip. It was an incredible sight seeing the Sabreliner in CO colors, sans meatball and titles!
 
SFOThinker
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Re: CO served multiple LA area airports with one flight, how many other carriers did this?

Sat Oct 17, 2020 9:27 pm

In the 1950s, American had flights that would serve both Dallas Love Field and Fort Worth Amon Carter Field as tags on long distance flights from the East or West.
 
departedflights
Posts: 152
Joined: Fri May 25, 2018 2:50 am

Re: CO served multiple LA area airports with one flight, how many other carriers did this?

Sat Oct 17, 2020 10:37 pm

KLMatSJC wrote:
Ok I think I found one. On the July 1972 timetable, Hughes Airwest had a flight that did SFO-OAK-SJC-LAS-PHX-MZT-GDL. They also had a return flight that did GDL-MZT-LAP-PHX-LAS-SJC-OAK-SFO.


Great find! :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
The opinions are expressed are my own and do not represent those of anyone else, including my coworkers or my employer.
 
Chemist
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Re: CO served multiple LA area airports with one flight, how many other carriers did this?

Sun Oct 18, 2020 12:45 am

My first helicopter flight was LA Airways Sikorsky LAX-BUR and back.
In 1971 I flew Western Airlines 720B LAX-SAN-PHX-DEN. The LAX-SAN leg was at 11,000 feet and took 27 minutes.
 
FlyingElvii
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Re: CO served multiple LA area airports with one flight, how many other carriers did this?

Sun Oct 18, 2020 4:38 am

LAXintl wrote:
Back in the day there was indeed all type of such LA basin hops by multiple airlines. One not mentioned was BUR-LGB but TWA for example.

Regarding CO specifically, as mentioned by knope2001, many LAX tags were meant to move aircraft and crews to their LAX base for both maintenance and crew training. It was not unusual to see a 707/720 do the LAX-ONT hop as part of crew training as easy means to build crew qualification.

Not just the LA basin, there were numerous tags in the Midwest as well during the 80’s and 90’s. Some that I traveled as revenue, not passriding, were Northwest Orient Chicago-LGA, MarkAir MDW-LGA, TWA IND-DAY, IND-CMH, UA SBN-FWA, Piedmont CVG-TYS, PA IND-CLE. even more strange tags on the regionals, like LAF-BEH, LAF-MIE, LAF-HUF, HUF- SPI, HUF-OWB, etc. The OAG was a great thing to have, a local travel agent used to give me her expired ones, when the new ones came out.
 
LAOCA
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Re: CO served multiple LA area airports with one flight, how many other carriers did this?

Sun Oct 18, 2020 1:48 pm

Coronado990 wrote:
Back in the 1970's, if you knew your routing guides, you could string a bunch of different tag-on's together for the same through fare. In 1975 I flew for $24.00 from SFO-MOD-SCK in the morning (5:15am flight on a UA 737), a Hughes Air West F-27 from SCK-SMX-LAX in the afternoon and a DL L-1011 from LAX-SAN in the evening. Great times indeed.


SAN had a number of wide body continuations from LAX that overnighted in the 70s and 80s. DL L1011 from HNL. UA 747 also from HNL. AA DC10s from IAD and ORD. TW L1011 from STL. WA DC10 from SLC. And the previously mentioned DL 727 that turned into a 767 from DFW via ONT. During the pre-767 days I can only recall one wide body flight out of SAN that didn't go through LAX and that was a UA DC10 to ORD.
 
cedarjet
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Re: CO served multiple LA area airports with one flight, how many other carriers did this?

Mon Oct 19, 2020 4:49 am

Today everything operates to or from a hub and airlines will overnight a plane at many of the spokes to operate an early morning run in to feed the hub's first bank of the day, so little or no random tags or positioning flights are needed.

The Eastern DC-9-30 that crashed attempting to land in Charlotte on September 11, 1972 (notable for killing Stephen Colbert’s father and two of his brothers) was at the end of its second flight of the day, Charleston SC to Charlotte, even though it was only 0734 local time, as the rotation started every morning with an empty Atlanta to Charleston leg at some ungodly hour.
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
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RWA380
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Re: CO served multiple LA area airports with one flight, how many other carriers did this?

Mon Oct 19, 2020 7:18 am

LAOCA wrote:
Coronado990 wrote:
Back in the 1970's, if you knew your routing guides, you could string a bunch of different tag-on's together for the same through fare. In 1975 I flew for $24.00 from SFO-MOD-SCK in the morning (5:15am flight on a UA 737), a Hughes Air West F-27 from SCK-SMX-LAX in the afternoon and a DL L-1011 from LAX-SAN in the evening. Great times indeed.


SAN had a number of wide body continuations from LAX that overnighted in the 70s and 80s. DL L1011 from HNL. UA 747 also from HNL. AA DC10s from IAD and ORD. TW L1011 from STL. WA DC10 from SLC. And the previously mentioned DL 727 that turned into a 767 from DFW via ONT. During the pre-767 days I can only recall one wide body flight out of SAN that didn't go through LAX and that was a UA DC10 to ORD.


Arguably the largest tag market by passenger count alone, I still think SEA-PDX-SEA had more carriers in the last 50 years, plus more aircraft types with 747 to SWM & many, many in between.
707 717 720 727-1/2 737-1/2/3/4/5/6/7/8/9 747-1/2/3/4 757-2/3 767-2/3/4 777-2/3 DC8 DC9 MD80/2/7/8 D10-1/3/4 M11 L10-1/2/5 A300/310/320
AA AC AQ AS BA BD BN CO CS DL EA EZ HA HG HP KL KN MP MW NK NW OZ PA PS QX RC RH RW SA TG TW UA US VS WA WC WN WP YS 8M
 
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RWA380
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Re: CO served multiple LA area airports with one flight, how many other carriers did this?

Mon Oct 19, 2020 7:24 am

cedarjet wrote:
Today everything operates to or from a hub and airlines will overnight a plane at many of the spokes to operate an early morning run in to feed the hub's first bank of the day, so little or no random tags or positioning flights are needed.

The Eastern DC-9-30 that crashed attempting to land in Charlotte on September 11, 1972 (notable for killing Stephen Colbert’s father and two of his brothers) was at the end of its second flight of the day, Charleston SC to Charlotte, even though it was only 0734 local time, as the rotation started every morning with an empty Atlanta to Charleston leg at some ungodly hour.


Your first statement i almost correct, during the beginning of the Covid travel drop off, both NK & B6, briefly operated SEA-PDX-SEA as a tag or part of a circle routing. IIRC NK was LAS-SEA-PDX-LAS & B6 was operating one MINT A-321 or A-320, but opting to not offer it for the tag flight only, one could get Y of course. NK only operated a o/w SEA-PDX on an A-320.
707 717 720 727-1/2 737-1/2/3/4/5/6/7/8/9 747-1/2/3/4 757-2/3 767-2/3/4 777-2/3 DC8 DC9 MD80/2/7/8 D10-1/3/4 M11 L10-1/2/5 A300/310/320
AA AC AQ AS BA BD BN CO CS DL EA EZ HA HG HP KL KN MP MW NK NW OZ PA PS QX RC RH RW SA TG TW UA US VS WA WC WN WP YS 8M
 
MIflyer12
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Re: CO served multiple LA area airports with one flight, how many other carriers did this?

Mon Oct 19, 2020 1:35 pm

cedarjet wrote:
Today everything operates to or from a hub and airlines will overnight a plane at many of the spokes to operate an early morning run in to feed the hub's first bank of the day, so little or no random tags or positioning flights are needed.


One might qualify that a little bit:

In the U.S. Today pretty much everything operates to or from a hub - except for Southwest.

Yes, one can still find a few outliers beyond those qualifications but in the context of 2019's ~40K scheduled passenger flights a day, not many.
 
Lpbri
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Re: CO served multiple LA area airports with one flight, how many other carriers did this?

Mon Oct 19, 2020 1:43 pm

In 1990, I flew on an SJC-SFO-ORD red eye flight. Most pax got on in SFO
 
Dominion301
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Re: CO served multiple LA area airports with one flight, how many other carriers did this?

Mon Oct 19, 2020 11:01 pm

PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:
I SO wanted to start my own thread in Polls & Preferences about tag-ons versus milk runs...but I think it comes down to tag-ons working like a railroad route, and tag-ons a way to either (a) serve two cities to one hub with one plane, OR (b) getting a plane to an airline/aircrew base.

But I think the BUR-ONT-LAX flights have to take the crown, unless someone ever did SJC-OAK-SFO or EWR-LGA-JFK. Are there any other metropolitan areas in the U.S. that were served like this with three nearby airports?


Did any flights in Florida go PBI-FLL-MIA or were they always PBI-MIA and FLL-MIA?

Upstate NY (plus YYZ, YOW and YUL - thanks to the ridiculous transborder restrictions that lasted until 1995) was a popular milk run place, with EA's L10 service on YYZ-BUF.
 
se210
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Re: CO served multiple LA area airports with one flight, how many other carriers did this?

Tue Oct 20, 2020 1:18 am

Dominion301 wrote:
PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:
I SO wanted to start my own thread in Polls & Preferences about tag-ons versus milk runs...but I think it comes down to tag-ons working like a railroad route, and tag-ons a way to either (a) serve two cities to one hub with one plane, OR (b) getting a plane to an airline/aircrew base.

But I think the BUR-ONT-LAX flights have to take the crown, unless someone ever did SJC-OAK-SFO or EWR-LGA-JFK. Are there any other metropolitan areas in the U.S. that were served like this with three nearby airports?


Did any flights in Florida go PBI-FLL-MIA or were they always PBI-MIA and FLL-MIA?

Upstate NY (plus YYZ, YOW and YUL - thanks to the ridiculous transborder restrictions that lasted until 1995) was a popular milk run place, with EA's L10 service on YYZ-BUF.


RE:.EA's L10 service on YYZ-BUF.

So I flew on EA YYZ-BUF 2X, all on the L1011. EA961 (YYZ-BUF-ATL) usually departed YYZ between 06:45-07:00 and EA962 (ATL-BUF-YYZ) arrived at YYZ around 22:00.

In 1979 I flew:
EA#961 03/16/79 YYZ-BUF L-1011 N313EA = 19 Minutes wheels up/wheels down (pictured below at YYZ)
EA#962 03/25/79 BUF-YYZ L-1011 N330EA = 18 Minutes wheels up/wheels down.

A year later in 1980 I flew:
EA#961 08/09/80 YYZ-BUF L-1011 N311EA = 17 Minutes wheels up/wheels down.
EA#962 08/30/80 BUF-YYZ L-1011 N301EA = 15 Minutes wheels up/wheels down. My last EA flight :(.

So YYZ-BUF is 68 miles. LAX-ONT is 47 miles and ONT-BUR is 45 miles .
All my YYZ-BUF-YYZ EA flights were shorter than my CO#301 Flight: LAX-ONT (33 Minutes) and ONT-BUR (23 Minutes), albeit, there was no LA Airspace to contend with and at LAX you are nearly always likely to takeoff towards the west (away from ONT). However, I did get a drink service on LAX-ONT (and peanuts; actually honey-roasted come to think about it) versus nothing on EA.
 
FlyIAD1
Posts: 18
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Re: CO served multiple LA area airports with one flight, how many other carriers did this?

Tue Oct 20, 2020 8:10 pm

Another busy short market was BWI-DCA, 30 statute miles. My first flight in 1966 was on an Eastern Airlines Lockheed Electra from DCA to BWI (then known as BAL).
The return trip was on a TWA DC-9-10. National Airlines regularly operated 727-200s on that route that continued to Philadelphia and JFK. United operated DC-10s
and DC-8-61s between IAD and BWI. Air Wisconsin even flew between DCA and IAD (23 statute miles) using a BAE-146. Those were the glory days for this airline enthusiast.
 
zrs70
Posts: 3759
Joined: Sun Dec 10, 2000 4:08 am

Re: CO served multiple LA area airports with one flight, how many other carriers did this?

Tue Oct 20, 2020 8:35 pm

At one point in the 2000’s, UA had a one way SNA-LAX flight. Did it once and loved it.

And just a couple of years ago, I did the AS milk run from Juneau to Seattle, including one leg (Wrangle to Petersburg I think) that was about 12 minutes of flight time.

In the 80’s, many carriers had MIA-FLL flights. CO had IAH-HOU flights.
20 year airliners.net vet! 2000-2020
 
Dominion301
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Re: CO served multiple LA area airports with one flight, how many other carriers did this?

Tue Oct 20, 2020 9:38 pm

se210 wrote:
Dominion301 wrote:
PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:
I SO wanted to start my own thread in Polls & Preferences about tag-ons versus milk runs...but I think it comes down to tag-ons working like a railroad route, and tag-ons a way to either (a) serve two cities to one hub with one plane, OR (b) getting a plane to an airline/aircrew base.

But I think the BUR-ONT-LAX flights have to take the crown, unless someone ever did SJC-OAK-SFO or EWR-LGA-JFK. Are there any other metropolitan areas in the U.S. that were served like this with three nearby airports?


Did any flights in Florida go PBI-FLL-MIA or were they always PBI-MIA and FLL-MIA?

Upstate NY (plus YYZ, YOW and YUL - thanks to the ridiculous transborder restrictions that lasted until 1995) was a popular milk run place, with EA's L10 service on YYZ-BUF.


RE:.EA's L10 service on YYZ-BUF.

So I flew on EA YYZ-BUF 2X, all on the L1011. EA961 (YYZ-BUF-ATL) usually departed YYZ between 06:45-07:00 and EA962 (ATL-BUF-YYZ) arrived at YYZ around 22:00.

In 1979 I flew:
EA#961 03/16/79 YYZ-BUF L-1011 N313EA = 19 Minutes wheels up/wheels down (pictured below at YYZ)
EA#962 03/25/79 BUF-YYZ L-1011 N330EA = 18 Minutes wheels up/wheels down.

A year later in 1980 I flew:
EA#961 08/09/80 YYZ-BUF L-1011 N311EA = 17 Minutes wheels up/wheels down.
EA#962 08/30/80 BUF-YYZ L-1011 N301EA = 15 Minutes wheels up/wheels down. My last EA flight :(.

So YYZ-BUF is 68 miles. LAX-ONT is 47 miles and ONT-BUR is 45 miles .
All my YYZ-BUF-YYZ EA flights were shorter than my CO#301 Flight: LAX-ONT (33 Minutes) and ONT-BUR (23 Minutes), albeit, there was no LA Airspace to contend with and at LAX you are nearly always likely to takeoff towards the west (away from ONT). However, I did get a drink service on LAX-ONT (and peanuts; actually honey-roasted come to think about it) versus nothing on EA.


Nice. My last EA flight was RSW-ATL on a 72S, connecting to ATL-BWI-YOW D9S in 1990. By that point in EA's ever-shortening existence, BWI-YOW was one of only a couple of remaining EA flights that didn't originate or terminate at ATL, and that actually carried its own meaningful O&D. At the time BWI was the closest Capital-to-Capitol flight available thanks to a) YOW being continually denied US preclearance and b) the Canadian government continually denying carrier applications for route authority to someplace other than BWI. Unfortunately YOW's been without any transborder service anywhere since late June. AC might be the first to bring a bit back if their YOW-FLL/MCO/DCA plans for this December hold...here's hoping.

zrs70 wrote:
At one point in the 2000’s, UA had a one way SNA-LAX flight. Did it once and loved it.

And just a couple of years ago, I did the AS milk run from Juneau to Seattle, including one leg (Wrangle to Petersburg I think) that was about 12 minutes of flight time.

In the 80’s, many carriers had MIA-FLL flights. CO had IAH-HOU flights.


Those AS milk runs are the short hops that actually have pax demand all along the route.

In Canada, I think at one point CP or PW or even AC/AC connector had a YEG-YXD tag on a flight or two. I wonder if you could buy a ticket on that?

I also remember a tiny outfit called Skycraft that flew YOW-YOO (Oshawa - east end of Metro Toronto)-YQG-DTW (or was it DET?) until they went belly-up around 1993. I don't know though if they had traffic rights on the Windsor-Detroit leg...that would have been something!

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